American History Hit - Robert E Lee: Life & Legacy

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

He is undoubtedly the most famous member of the Confederate forces. But it wasn't always set to be that way.In this episode, Don speaks to Jonathan Horn to find out about the life of Robert E Lee, why he made the decision to join the Confederate side, and how he was connected to George Washington.Produced by Sophie Gee. Edited by Siobhan Dale. Senior Producer was Charlotte Long.Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Dan Snow, James Holland, Mary Beard and more.Get 50% off your first 3 months with code AMERICANHISTORY. Download the app on your smart TV or in the app store or sign up at historyhit.com/subscribeYou can take part in our listener survey here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Want to explore even more history? Sign up to History Hit, where you will discover history from around the world. From the American Revolution to prehistoric Scotland, there is plenty to discover. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries, with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com slash subscribe to bring the past alive. It's December 8, 2021, and we're standing in a small crowd on historic Monument Avenue in Richmond, Virginia. It's 8.54 a.m. an entirely unmotous time for what is truly a momentous occasion.

Overhead, a crane whirers and begins to lift its profound load upward. All actions being orchestrated by a site manager in a high-visibility orange safety jacket, speaking into a walkie-talkie. A moment later, the 21-foot-tall statue of General Robert E. Lee on horseback, which has towered over the site since 1890, lifts off its 60-foot-tall graffiti-plastered marble pedestal and begins to make its humble descent onto the back of a flatbed truck. 160 years after the first shots were fired on Fort Soutner, Richmond, Virginia, has begun to turn the page on a new story,

in which favorite son, Robert E. Lee, will be playing a much less glorious role. Hey, folks, it's American History Hit. So glad you're listening. I'm Don Wildman. One of the strangest aspects of the Civil War, in my own opinion, is the passage towards reconciliation in the years during and after the failures of reconstruction. On one hand, it is, of course, natural and necessary for a nation so bitterly divided as the United States was after 1861 to repair its differences. and unite after the war. How that would happen, though, is a complicated and detailed discussion.

What I'm referring to here is the superficial, more public and popular manner in which we transitioned, not just in the immediate years after the war, but for generations onward, honestly, right up until my childhood in the 1960s. And no man figures more prominently, more iconically in that national process than the general of the Southern forces, Robert E. Lee. In our episode today, we will discuss Lee's biographical story, his origins and early career, his marriage, as well as this later chapter of Lee's life, how he eventually assumed this unlikely role. We'll try to steer clear of the detailed military actions of the Civil War itself, those battles and campaigns are for another day. Now, we seek here to better understand a warrior who chose to wage combat against his own nation, and then either by his own design or others, somehow softened into. a trusted symbol of the agonized ambiguity of the South. Those rebellious Americans racked by

doubt, but forced by circumstance to take up a cause they would then go on to lose. It's a story and a process important to understand if we are ever to come to terms with some of the themes of the Civil War still at work today. And to help us tell this story, we are joined by author and historian Jonathan Horn, who a few years back released a best-selling biography of Robert E. Lee, entitled The Man Who Would Not Be Washington. Hello, Jonathan Horn, and welcome to American History Hit. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me.

Do you agree with what I've just said that this is a worthy conversation, how we've inherited this image of Lee down the centuries? I think of the photograph of him seated there in his Confederate uniform, handsome and calm, no better beard in the history of beards, so dignified and reserved. And yet here's the man who led an army against a nation he swore to protect. I think it's a very worthy conversation, especially because as we think about Robert E. Lee in the beginning of the 21st century, who he was has become a very lost question. We're more focused on Lee as a symbol and who he was as a man has been really forgotten.

Yeah, exactly. Let's start with his upbringing. Lee comes from revolutionary stock, one generation out, son of an officer in the revolution, Henry Lee the third. We often forget how short this history really is. I mean, it's very compact when you start reaching back. He is famously a Virginian, born on the Lee plantation called Stratford Hall, located downriver from George Washington's home, Mount Vernon. He's right there on the Potomac. His dad is a less than successful planter, however.

So tell us about Robert's childhood. It was typical Virginia, but he had an atypical upbringing. Yeah. Well, Robert Lee's father was a man, as you said, named Harry Lee, the third, but popularly he's been known as Light Horse Harry Lee, and that's a nickname he earned during the American Revolution, where he served as one of George Washington's most trusted cavalry commanders. But what Harry Lee is most famous for is what he did when George Washington died. He was the person who eulogized George Washington as first in war, first in peace,

and first in the hearts of his countrymen. And those, of course, are still the words that we most remember George Washington by today, and during Robert Lee's childhood, everybody knew that his father had written those words. Now, you mentioned that Robert Lee was born on a great estate called Stratford Hall down the Potomac in Westmoreland, and that's true. But he didn't spend most of his childhood there, and that's because of something else you said. Harry Lee was not an economical person. He bet all of his money on land, and he lost, and he lost really badly. And during, During the war of 1812, he actually sailed off into the Caribbean into exile. And Robert Lee never saw his father again.

And he spent most of his childhood as a result further up the Potomac, closer to Mount Vernon, in the town of Alexandria, which was then Alexandria in the district of Columbia, not actually Alexandria, Virginia, as it is today. Yeah, it was a stain on his character, I guess, the relationship with his father. It's so often the case with these guys, these big-time heroic individuals. that they come from something that is less than stellar in their background, right? Yeah, it was a black mark on the family. And the person who best understood Harry Lee's downfall was his wife, Robert Lee's mother.

And she was very determined that this cycle of tragedy would not repeat itself in Lee. And so she tried very hard to teach him the economy that his father lacked. She tried to teach him the self-control. his father lacked. And there's an irony, of course, because Harry Lee was the great eulogist of George Washington, but he couldn't emulate what he knew was George Washington's greatest virtue, and that was self-control. And Robert Lee's mother made sure that Lee would have this quality. And as Lee got older, he became very accustomed to saying things like he could never have his own way. And self-denial and self-control became almost.

a religion to Lee. Before we get too far into this, I want to talk about the E. Part of Robert E. Lee. Was it really important to him that this initial be in there, or have we just done this ourselves? You know what's funny about it is he never signed anything, Robert E. Lee. He signed all of his papers R. E. Lee. So the E was important to him, but Robert E. Lee, and I find myself saying it, too, has become sort of a way of referring to him that I don't think would have been all that common. if you had been living back then. As Donald F. Wildman, I understand that. Was Robert drawn to the military or was this encouraged by his elders?

He ends up attending West Point, 1825. Was he interested in military strategy or was it that he just didn't want to follow in his father's footsteps? Well, he showed a real talent for math and for engineering that would be very useful for a military education because it's important to understand that engineering was that, that, basically, basic function of West Point. It was an engineering school and the best graduates of West Point went on to engineering. But in Lee's particular case, the military offered something very important, which was he needed a stable career. He couldn't live off his name. He couldn't live off the land. I think the military and the application that he made as a young man to West Point,

which was backed by a number of very prominent people who remembered his father, said basically, if you're going to deny him admission to West Point, please let us know immediately. Lee, because this is a young man who can't waste any time finding a different career. Now, the irony is the one person who really opposed him going was his mother. His mother had become very sick and become very dependent on Robert, and she said, how can I live without, my dear Robert? And many years later, when Lee was an old man and the Civil War was over, he would say, and this is one of the great ironies of his life, he would say that he wished he had listened to his mother

and not taking a military education, which, of course, would have negated pretty much his entire life. So do we, Robert. So do we. His West Point career is really stellar. Mostly he trains, as you say, as an engineer, how to build a good fort and such. And this is what carries him into the early years of his work, right? Down south, he's building forts and engineering things. That's exactly right. And he famously graduated second in his class. The person who graduates first disappears into history. But Lee is very, very successful at West Point. He becomes an engineer, but he's also frustrated because his career doesn't advance as quickly as he hopes it will. But he can't leave because it's his career and he's very committed to having this stable career that his father was never able to put together after the American Revolution. And so the military is very much part of his identity, but it's also in a conflict with other things.

Well, he's partly as he's becoming a military man after the war is over. You know, this is the last war before this is the war of 1812. he would have been in the sort of dreary, boring stuff, I guess, of infrastructure and so forth. And in the midst of it all, he falls in love. He proposes to and marries a woman named Mary Anna Randolph Custis. Wow. A name stacked with Virginian nobility. You got Edward Randolph in there, Custis.

She's the great granddaughter of Martha Washington. Let me be clear. Martha was married first before she married George Washington to a man named Daniel Custis. When he died, she married George Washington. So this becomes a defining moment, as I say, of Robert Ely's life. He is marrying into the father of our nation's family. Absolutely. And it's important to understand who Custis was.

This is Marianna Randolph's father. He considered himself very much the adopted son of George Washington. Technically speaking, as you said, he was the grandson of Martha Washington from her first marriage, but he had grown up at Mount Vernon with George Washington essentially acting as his father. And he built this great house where Robert Lee married Mary called Arlington house with these great pillars across the Potomac River from the city of Washington. And if you had visited Arlington in the years before the Civil War, as thousands of Americans did, you would have seen all kinds of relics of Mount Vernon that Custis had brought with him from his

childhood, portraits of George Washington, the China that George Washington used, and even the bed where George Washington died. Supposedly, Custis liked to keep it in the exact same condition that George Washington died in. And this is the house we still see over the river when you're standing at the Lincoln Memorial. This is the Arlington House. That's exactly right. And, of course, the geography looked quite different back then. And the most important change, which we'll get to, I'm sure, is that Arlington back then

was not our national cemetery, but it would be become so because of events that would follow. Exactly. He comes into a lot of money by marrying Mary Custis. He certainly eventually becomes the overseer of many enslaved persons, which we will talk about in a few moments. In 1846, a war is undertaken between the United States and Mexico, which does not get enough attention. He serves under Winfield Scott, Old Fuss and Feathers, as one of his chief aides. He's part of major actions in the war, a march from Vera Cruz to Mexico City. Big success, gets great recognition. He's finally wounded in 1847. It is in this war where the future officers and leaders in the Civil War are fighting side by side, even Lee and Grant. It's a remarkable episode of American

history that nobody really talks about. Absolutely. And this is pivotal to Lee's career. And the most important thing that happens is that he impresses Winfield, Scott, who really is the most important military figure in the years before the Civil War. And he is able to find roots around the Mexican Army to outflank the Mexican Army continually on the path to Mexico City. And people notice he has this unusual talent for topography. And he's able to see roots around the army that other people are not able to see. And by the end of the conflict, Winfield Scott will declare that Robert Lee was the very

best soldier he had ever seen in the field. So this really is a critical moment for Lee's career. The 1850s follow that pivotal times in America, obviously, but they're also pivotal times for Robert E. Lee. He's made the superintendent of West Point. I mean, not the Academy, but the Fort. Which I just need to pause. Seems fateful.

You know, the earlier superintendent was Benedict Arnold, which is a wacky coincidence. Two guys who end up rebelling against their country are both superintendents of West Point. It's a strange thing. He spends three years away from his family. His son, however, George Washington Custis Lee does attend while he is there, graduates first in his class. This is all to say, I mean, wow, could you have a man more steeped in American United States tradition right now, more sworn to his nation?

It's just amazing to consider he will soon throw it all away. But that's a more complicated decision than we know, and it has to do with his own family and the big events. his father-in-law, George Washington Park Custis, dies and leaves his estate, Arlington House, to his daughter, Mary, Robert's wife. And so begins a journey. The place has suffered from poor management, and there are all these complicated relationships inherited along with the land and physical structures. Things are very complicated with the enslaved folks there even. Can you explain the state of matters at Arlington House and how it may have affected Robert Ely at this point in his life? And that's a great question, because this really is the pivotal moment for Lee in the 1850s.

When his father-in-law dies, Custis leaves a disastrous will. That's the only way it can be described. And he names Lee as the executor of his estate, which means Lee is going to have to somehow carry this out. So, Lee comes back to Arlington, and he finds really a very, very complicated situation. And I think we have to get to step back and say that Custis, has at Arlington. We talked about all the other relics he had of Mount Vernon, but he also had descendants of the men, women, and children who had been held in slavery at Mount Vernon. And you might ask, how is that possible? Didn't George Washington emancipate all of the men and women

he held in slavery when he died in his famous will? Well, he did, but much as he wanted to, he couldn't emancipate the men and women and children who belonged to his wife, the estate of her first husband. Those were beyond his power to free, and they would be divided up among her four grandchildren, one of whom was Robert E. Lee's father-in-law. So when he returns to Arlington in 1857, he is managing an estate that in some sense includes men and women and children who are held in slavery who George Washington had wanted to but could not free. And so it is that the unresolved question of slavery is very much one of the personal legacies that Robert E. Lee inherits from the father of our country. Yeah. And it's an excellent chance to discuss his outlook on enslavement.

Where does he stand on the issue and how does he act because of that? He's a tough manager, you understand, but is he an empathetic man? Where are the facts in all of this? Lee famously said that slavery was an evil institution. But it's also important to say that he famously he also said that it was a necessary institution. He prayed for a day that God would end slavery, but he also essentially excused himself from responsibility for bringing that day about. He was no abolitionist. What he essentially wanted was to have as little to do with the institution as possible, but what most entangles him in the institution is the will that his father-in-law leaves in 1857, and as a result, he comes into conflict with the men and women.

who are held in slavery at the Custis estates. And this is a conflict that's going to play out on the national stage because people are very interested in the fate of these men and women because they're not just any ordinary people who are held in slavery. These are people with direct connections to the father of our country and to Mount Vernon. So it actually plays out in the newspaper some of the difficulties that Lee has as a manager. I just want to underscore the irony, I guess, is the word. Incredible that this is all taking.

place at what is today the National Cemetery. This is on the lands of that Arlington House, you know, a spitting distance from the National Capitol at this moment. No wonder people are interested. No wonder this is a big story. And how do we trust these stories? I mean, what we learned about this down the road, I mean, his behavior towards these enslaved people is written about. He is, in one hand, very cruel to them. You know, there's a story of him taking up the whip against them himself when his manager wouldn't do it. You know, how much of this is apocryphal versus real in your research? Well, there's certainly primary sources to back up the story of Lee whipping a woman. There's also Lee basically saying and denying the charge and saying that isn't true, but he's not going to respond to the newspapers.

But the important thing is this really is playing out on a national stage. And the reason is, is the men and women who are held in slavery believe that Custis had been. promised them freedom. And in a sense, he had, his will had promised to free them within five years. But it also promised to raise vast sums of money for other people and lead and see how he could carry out both provisions of this will. And he'll actually go to court and try to have a court extend the period of time that he can keep these men and women in slavery so he can raise the vast sums that Custis has promised. And it's not until the civil war is actually already happening that this matter is finally resolved and a court says, no, you can't extend this period any longer. And actually, as a result, during the Civil War, Robert E. Lee will go about finally executing an emancipation for the men and women and children who are held as slaves by the Custis estate.

How much did this estate inheritance cast the die on his decision to serve with the South? Well, I think in some ways it means as a result of this experience, he is living in the late 1850s and early 1860s, through the eyes of a slaveholder. His name has been attacked by abolitionists. It makes him very angry against them and the forces of meddling and making his job harder. And there's, of course, something else

that we should talk about, which is what happens 60 miles upriver from Arlington, which is John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry, which, of course, plays another and very important role in what happens to Lee. Right, under President James of Cannon, Lee takes a force upriver, you know, up to the Shenandoah Valley,

where Harper's Ferry Uprising has been led by John Brown. He is a big reason that this whole thing is put down. Is he the one that puts Brown to death? No, but he is the one who successfully captures Brown, and he is given quite a bit of credit for this. In fact, in some sense, it's what makes him most famous in the years before the Civil War. Lee himself kind of dismisses the importance of Brown and says he was just a fanatic abolitionist whose plan for freeing all the men and women held in slavery in the South,

had no chance of success. But other people see something more. They see this as heralding a greater conflict. And of course it did. And Lee sort of missed it. It was heralding the coming of the American Civil War. He was also part of Texas's secession. This was his last command within the United States, wasn't it, down in Texas when they secede? Yes. And that's a fascinating moment where there's this possibility that Lee might have found himself in direct conflict fighting the secessionist in Texas because he was still a member of the United States Army. He had not resigned his commission. Virginia, importantly, had not seceded from the union. And there's this real possibility because Lee is so obsessed with duty that he might have found himself called to resist.

Now, what happens instead is he is called back to the city of Washington for a meeting with Winfield Scott. And so as a result, this is avoided. And when he gets back, he says he doesn't want to find himself in a position again where you might be forced to coerce people. I'm Professor Susanna Lipskin, and on not just the Tudors from History Hit, my guests and I run through the full gamut of human emotion and experience. From the heartbreak of the Virgin Queen, Elizabeth not being able to marry, arguably the only man in the world she ever really wanted to marry, may have, for that reason, not married anyone else.

To a prenatal battle of the sexes. A male and a female seed, meat, in the womb at conception, and whichever one is stronger determines the sex of the unborn child. From Lady Jane Gray facing her executioner. You can't help but feel just the utmost sympathy for this young girl. To why the laughing cavalier is, well, laughing. He strikes me as someone who goes off on a sort of swaggering booze up. Subscribe now to not just the tutors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

So let's discuss the events leading up to the decision. to join the rebellion. In the standard lore, this would become more about his feelings for Virginia than it was for the South in general. Is this true? Was he first and foremost of Virginian? Yes, and that's the way he said he had always been brought up. And there were many people who wondered how that could be. This is the son of George Washington's most famous eulogist and the son-in-law of George Washington's adopted son. And they say, look at George Washington's farewell address. It says, prize the union above any local allegiance, above allegiance to your state. And what's interesting is Lee himself reads a biography of George Washington on the eve of civil war

as states are seceding. And he himself concludes that George Washington would have opposed secession. And he himself says that he thinks secession is illegal and wrong. And he doesn't want it. He wants the union to stay together. That's the only thing he's ever. want it. But at the same time, he feels that it is his duty to follow his state, even if his state makes what he considers to be a bad decision. I don't understand it. I've never understood that decision in the mind of such a brilliant person, how you could settle yourself with that. The truth is, 40% of Virginian officers joined the union side. It's not like everybody in the South went with a rebellion. So this was a guy who made choices based

I'm sure not only on his loyalty to the state he was from, but also because of personal choices. And I think we've just mentioned the one that I didn't know about before this, that there was this enormous personal crisis, this importance of making this estate work, which really, really figures in prominently, I think. Yeah. And of course, and for Lee, the decision is all the much more important because on the eve of the Civil War, he's called to the city of Washington, and he's offered command of the main Union army being raised to crush success. And as the story goes, Lee famously said he opposed secession. He would gladly wash his hands of slavery to avoid war. But how can he lift his sword against the state he calls home, Virginia? And as he's leaving, he goes and meets with his mentor, Winfield Scott, who is also a Virginian.

And Lee is very much likely to say there was no choice I had to follow Virginia's way. I couldn't have my own way. But we know Winfield Scott, who was a Virginia and stayed loyal to the United States. And he told Lee, you have made the greatest mistake of your life, but I feared it would be so. Yep, exactly. Heavy stuff, man. During the length of the Civil War, he leads his troops in something like 15 major battles. But he's in charge of all the troops or not.

He is the general command of this entire effort, right? Well, he ends up as the general and chief of the Confederacy, but that's not until the very end. In fact, in the very beginning, he had trouble finding his footing. I think we had this impression that Lee was immediately. successful in the Civil War and all of the other commanders were bungling fools. But that's not actually what the way it really played out. In fact, his first commands were somewhat of disasters. His first command was in Western Virginia, which I'm calling Western Virginia instead of West Virginia.

And the reason it would become West Virginia was it basically seceded from Virginia because it was loyalist. And it was partly a function that Lee was not able to hold it. And his orders were confusing. He had grand plans that it required independent columns, converging all at the right moment. So like everyone else, he had to really learn. Is he responsible for the South losing? Were his choices in the end ineffective?

Or were there other? Of course, there were many, many factors. But where does Lee figure into that failure? Well, you know, I think we live at this moment right now where people look at Lee's strategy during the Civil War and say he had the totally wrong strategy. He maybe should have done something more similar to what George Washington during the American Revolution. just keep his army intact and basically wear out the enemy. But that's not the way that Lee saw the conflict.

He always saw a time working against his army. He believed that the longer the conflict went on, the more resources the North would bring into the fight, the more its population, the more its industrial power to come and become factors. And there was something else. He believed that the South social system would be shred. And of course, it was by the emancipation. proclamation, which was a very effective military maneuver. And, you know, I think actually when you

look at the arguments, Lee was right, because in some sense, this is what happened. Lee knew if the South was going to win, they had to win quick, and they had to basically destroy the North's political will to fight. So in a sense, you have a race. Can Lee break the North's political will for combat by scoring some sort of major victory before the North succeeds in short? in the South's social order. And I think the other person who also understood this was Abraham Lincoln. Gettysburg is really the tipping point of that idea, isn't it? He thinks that if you can score a major northern victory, then that would really be a persuasive thing for a lot of people who were willing to negotiate. All that backfires with the Battle of Gettysburg. The surrender to Grant at Appomattox

is really the beginning of the story of Robert E. Lee that we now carry with us. This sort of dignified gentleman who has made the choice to surrender for the good of his troops, who are starving in the field. And he begins this campaign, I suppose, in his later life, which doesn't last very long, to rehabilitate his character. Was that a big priority for him in those days? Did that matter a lot? Because there were certainly people in the South who loved the man. Was he looking to his legacy in what he chose to do from that point on? Well, when the war ends, he essentially doesn't know what to do with himself. He wonders if perhaps he could become a farmer and sort of emulate what George Washington tried to do when he retired. But he gets this offer from a small school in the

Shenandoah Valley called Washington College to become president of the college. And a lot of people are like, well, there's no way Lee is going to accept this offer. If he wants to be a college president, he could be the president of a much bigger and more successful college. And this college had barely survived the civil war. But Lee sees dignity and opportunity in this offer. It is a chance for him to prepare young men who for four years he had led in war and prepare them for rebuilding the South. And this really does become his calling in the post-war world is running this college. Let's close the book on Arlington. How does that happen? How do they seize the estate? How does it then be named the National Cemetery? Take me through.

through those events? Well, essentially what happens is as, it's important to say just how terrible and bloody these civil war battles were, and as as casualties are mounting, there is essentially space running out in the city of Washington to bury bodies, and people look across the river to Arlington. One of them is quartermaster Megs, who basically believes that Lee should not be able to go home. And he makes sure that the bodies are buried very, very close. closely around the house. And what happens first is the federal government sells Arlington for basically failure to pay taxes during the war, even though some of Lee's relatives and friends in the North will actually try to make an effort to pay the taxes on his behalf. And as a result, this way eventually,

if you can believe it, actually end up after Lee's death as a Supreme Court case, where the Supreme Court will say the seizure of Arlington was incorrect and will award. damages to Lee's son, George Washington, Custis Lee, after he has, of course, promised not to unearth the bodies that have been buried on the property. I see. Wow. It was an occupancy as 90% of the law kind of thing. They just took the place over and then said it's ours and then paid them off a little bit, probably not nearly the value, I would imagine. Well, and the other thing of course that's so amazing is basically is this house that began as a monument to George Washington or as a museum to George Washington. It was a museum to George

Washington ends up becoming the final resting place for people who defended the union that George Washington created, the union that Robert E. Lee chose not to defend at the start of the Civil War. There are certain things that history really does give us, you know, the irony, the poetry, the grand epic quality of these events are just unspeakably huge, you know, that you could be standing at the Washington Monument, looking across at Arlington. Oh, my, I'm trying to be terse about this, but it's just such a big idea. You know, his great-granddaughter's house becomes the burying point for the preservation of the union. It's amazing. It's just incredible. After he is the president of this college, what happens to Lee in his last years? He dies of a stroke.

Did he ever get a chance to apologize for what he'd done? Did he want to? What was his final words on his actions? No, he never apologized. In fact, to be clear, he changed his views on secession. I told you, before the war, he actually believed secession was illegal. But at some point during the war, he decided, oh, you know, actually the founding fathers had allowed for secession all along and everyone had agreed it was allowed. And I guess you can see how that transformation might have happened. He's been fighting for this cause. He absorbs it and makes it his own. But he then says the war has forever settled. this matter. It was settled by the sword. He accepts that slavery is extinguished. He accepts that succession is not allowed. And he tries to set an example of submission to authority for the people of the South. Now, it's important to say that he didn't still have the idea that we have today of a multiracial democracy. He believed and he wanted people who have been formally held as slaves in Virginia to leave the state. He had no vision for how that would work. And he says that openly. So it's not as if he goes and says everything we want. We wish he might have he come around to. That was not where he ended up. But he did set this submission, example of submission to authority, which was very important in the years after the war. This is where I find it so confusing, you know, because this would have been a chance to take the higher road, to lead this nation back to a more certain place, a more unified idea. But instead it ends up in the whole of reconstruction and all the division that happens as a result.

Maybe part of that is that a man who could have made such a difference dies, you know, only five years after the Civil War is over and was probably ill before that and never really made any kind of stand like that. But I'm not sweet on Robert Lee for this reason because he had his chance to do good and it kind of all went away. And I think it's important to be honest about that. John, what are your final words on Robert Lee in the life that he led and the sense that in the end we didn't hear too much from him? Well, I think, you know, we would have wanted Lee in hindsight to. do more, but we shouldn't forget what he did do. He did start helping to put back together the country. It was not necessarily the country we would become, the country we would want to be. But the example he said of submission to authority, and of course the decision he made at Appomatics to not divide

up his army, not to try to splinter it into guerrillas like some other Confederates might have wanted to do. He said, you young man can go on fighting in the bushes. But for me, there's only one proper thing to do. And he would have rather died than done it. But he did do it. And that was to go surrender to Ulysses S. Grant. And still you can go to that courthouse. My father took me in hand and walked into that place and had a look around. A very important moment in this country's history and an incredible tipping point of all of that. As promised, this has been a very general conversation about a gigantic life. And I thank you, Jonathan Horn, for doing that. If you want to read the more complete version, I recommend you pick up.

his book, The Man Who Would Not Be Washington. Jonathan Horn, thank you so much for being on American History Hit. Really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you for joining us on another episode of American History Hit. Please hit like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a nice review there. And if you'd like to make suggestions on any future subject matter, send us an email at

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