American History Hit - The Mayflower: What Was Life Like At Sea?

Episode Date: November 28, 2024

A cargo hold, just 5 feet tall and divided up with canvas - this is what served as the living quarters for the 102 passengers of the Mayflower on their 66 day crossing to North America.Don is joined by guest Anna Scott, a researcher from the University of Lincoln, to find out what this journey was really like. From the failures of the Speedwell to the tensions between passengers on arrival in the wrong place, how has this group of colonists become so intrinsic to the American story?Produced and edited by Sophie Gee. Senior Producer was Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.You can take part in our listener survey at https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/6FFT7MK.All music from Epidemic Sounds/All3 Media.American History Hit is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Want to explore even more history? Sign up to History Hit, where you will discover history from around the world. From the American Revolution to prehistoric Scotland, there is plenty to discover. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com slash subscribe to bring the past alive. November 11th, 1620. The Mayflower arrives off the shores of Cape Cod,

anchoring in what is today Provincetown Harbor in Massachusetts. For the next five weeks, it will remain anchored here, as search parties are dispatched ashore to scout sites for settlement all along the Cape. They'll finally choose a location about 30 miles across the bay, a place previously mapped by an earlier English expedition, and coincidentally, named for the harbor town these pilgrims had seen before leaving England for the last time. Plymouth. Hello, and nice you're here, where American history hit, and I'm Don Wildman.

Happy holidays. This week, in the Thanksgiving spirit, we are covering the voyage of the pilgrims, from England to the Dutch Netherlands and finally to the wind-swept shores of New England, where in 1620, they settled and struggled and somehow made a home. And according to popular legend, dined festively in the company of Native American friends, everyone celebrating a plentiful harvest of corn and ample poultry, anticipating snugly times ahead in winter, and yeah, that was the story doled out to us as kids. The truer history of the Pilgrim Voyage to America is a lot more involved.

In our previous episode, we covered the first half of the story, where in 1608, a persecuted people left England crossed the English Channel to, Amsterdam, settled in Leiden. A decade later, many of those folks opted to uproot and make the greater journey to the promised land of the new world. So now, as we rejoin our Pilgrim's Progress, picture a scene few today would have the guts to try. Crossing an ocean in a vessel, only 100 feet in length, designed to carry cargo, not passengers, and there are more than 120 of you on board, including the crew. Rough passage, no matter what the weather. We are in Plymouth, England, as we begin the story, leaving the harbor, the wind filling the sails.

And here to helm this historical voyage is once more Anna Scott, researcher from the University of Lincoln in England. She has written extensively on the Pilgrims and features prominently in a history hit project, a TV documentary, Mayflower 400, the 400th anniversary of the Mayflower voyage. Anna, welcome back. Part two. Are you ready? Absolutely. So where we are right now is we've arrived in Southampton. It's the summer of 1620 around July, and this group of pilgrims is going to become part of an economic enterprise, which is run by a group called the Merchant Adventurers, which is an English firm. And they are basically hiring this group of religious sojourners to become laborers in this company that will land in the new world. These are early days.

I mean, there's not too much happening in this land afar, plenty for the. The indigenous people, of course, but not this new European crowd that's arriving. We basically got Jamestown and St. Augustine and a few other things have been tried, but that's about it. So they're going to go off into the Great Unknown. First, they start with two ships. Let's talk about how that happens. Of course. So we all have heard of the Mayflower, and the second ship was called the Speedwell.

And we're going to hear about whether or not it lived up to its name. But you might be able to guess for yourself, because obviously it's not one of the ships that. that anybody's ever heard of. Yeah, absolutely. So on these two ships are in Southampton and the separatist group, the pilgrims, the saint, all of these different names have been used for that group. They are on the Speedwell.

That's the ship that they've bought for this voyage. So they've invested by buying themselves a ship, sailing their homes in the places that they originally came from. They've come from Leiden in Holland and originally they lived in England. in rural parts of Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire. So each time they've moved on, they've had to sell everything

and take with them what they can carry. So they're ready to go and they have come to meet the Mayflower, which is the ship that has been hired by the financial backers, the merchant adventurers who are based in London. And on that ship are some people who are seeking out new lives

but not necessarily for the same reasons as the pilgrims. So they've not got the same religious motivations. The pilgrims also have been called separatists. They wanted to be separate from the Church of England at a time when that was risky to the point of risking death because you were going against the head of the church who was the head of the state, the king at that time and you would be risking your safety for sure

and possibly risking your life. So one of the motivations for the pilgrims, in travelling so far away from England was really to be able to get on with worshipping in the way that they wanted to far away from that gaze of the king. It was further away than when they had been in Holland, but even being in Holland hadn't been far enough for them. And I think in some ways they were given permission to go over to America because they then would have been a bit out of sight and out of mind.

And so I guess it was easier to be able to look the other way for those in England who disagreed with what they wanted to achieve. The merchant adventurers, they were in it for the money, as you've said. They had paid for the voyage and for the colony to be able to set themselves up. They'd given that investment. But there was a debt that was then owed by all of those who were going to establish the colony. But it wasn't just about them getting that debt paid back. It was really about opening up new avenues for trade because there was a feeling that there would be raw materials and resources

that could be brought back to England, to Europe, to be traded, to make more money. So it was really about establishing those connections where trade could then prosper. I think there's another bit of the story about how successful that was for the pilgrims after they established the colony because those things really didn't always go well. So Beezer pelts, for example, were important in terms of currency for things like trade. And sometimes they had ships things to be sent back to help pay off the debt. And then that was captured by pirates and all sorts of things went wrong for them. So there was this plan, but it didn't always go to plan.

And that's what's about to happen when they're in Southampton. So both of these ships set sail. It's the summertime. So that's fine. And they go out into the Atlantic, but the speed well starts to leak. Right. This is a critical part of the story to understand. The timing of this was professionally planned by seamen, who knew what they were doing, to leave in the summer so that they would arrive in plenty of warm weather to get settled. They depart in plenty of time, August 15th, but the speedwell does not match its name, so they have to come back. And this is going to happen several times. That's right. So they make the way back, not all the way back to Southampton this time. They pull into the port at Dartmouth. So that's a little bit further along the south coast of England.

But not very far when you think about the vast journey that they're about to undertake. So they decide that they're going to try and fix the speedwell. And they sit there for about a week while that's happening. And at this point, the passengers are getting pretty worried. And the captain, the master of the ship, doesn't even want to let them get off the ship because he thinks that some of them are going to run away because there's a lot of discontent around what's going on and people start to lose their nerves. So they managed to fix the ship and they set sail again,

both of the ships, the Mayflower and the Speedol. I think this is a good moment to talk about the physical experience of this journey. The Mayflower, as I mentioned in the opening, is about 100 feet long. It's a cargo ship that was actually designed for transporting wine and cloth, I believe. It's not made for passengers. Can you explain the sort of physical parameters of what they're about to go through? Yeah, so I think squashed is probably to describe it. Yeah, there wouldn't have been a lot of space.

The fact that they had carried wine on the ship, it has been described as a sweet-smelling ship. I think there could have been worse things that it could have carried. So I guess that was not as unpleasant as it could have been. I think the other thing to note about the voyage, which is a positive for the pilgrims, and perhaps one of the reasons why the story has become so successfully well known, is the fact that not a lot of them died on the way over. So although the conditions would have been harsh and hard and difficult,

there wasn't rampant disease on that journey. It was certainly challenging after they got over to America, but unlike other voyages that had been happening around that time, there wasn't a vast amount of sickness that was happening. So it is worth noting that. Well, at first they had a more practical plan, which is to have two vessels, so less people on each one of those things. But what happens next seals the fate in that regard.

They end up on one boat. Why is that? So they set up again into the Atlantic and it turns out that the repairs that they'd made to the speed well were really not good enough and it continued to leak. One of them wrote about how it was open and leaky as a sieve. So that's not really something that you want to be travelling over all the way across the Atlantic on. So they decided to come back again.

And this time they pull in in Plymouth, which is again further along on the south coast of England. and they are there fairly briefly and ultimately decide that the speed well isn't going to make it. Bear in mind, this is the ship that they've bought for the voyage. The other one was hired, so they'd made an investment in this. And then you've got the problem of having two groups of people and one ship. So you've got all of the separatists, the pilgrims from Leiden in Holland,

and then you've got these other economic migrants, if you like, on the Mayflower. And to put everybody onto one ship onto the Mayflower means that it's inevitably going to be much more uncomfortable for those as in that are on there. Yes. And there's also that discontent that had started to, people have started to express in Dartmouth. And some people decided to not continue with the void at that point.

Yeah. They already knew they were risking their lives, but they were also then saying, we're not going to do this, but they didn't have anything else to go home to. They'd sold their houses. They'd given up their jobs. I mean, it was a real disaster for some of them. They had to do things like they sold some butter to raise more money because of the delays. So it was a saga.

Yeah, I mean, just to explain this, that second attempt when they leave Dartmouth on those two ships and then the speedwell fails, the decision to turn back is 300 miles at sea. Like, they've been sailing for a long time. struggling. I mean, they're on their way, and then suddenly they're turning back again. So when you talk about discontent, I mean, you can only imagine. We complain when the train's late. This is their entire existences and their children. There are pregnant people on board. It's an extraordinarily dire circumstance as far as they're concerned. And when they turn back this time, they turn back not to Dartmouth, but to the harbor of Plymouth. And that's the beginning of the

whole Plymouth story, right? Yes, yes and now. So there's a strange relationship with the Plymouth and the Plymouth. So the pilgrims accidentally stopped at Plymouth in England, and they end up in a place that's called Plymouth in New England, in America. But both of those things are accidental, because the Plymouth that they get to in America had already been named on a map that had been created by John Smith, Pocohontas John Smith, in the years previously. I have to go back and correct my fifth grade teacher in that case, because she told me it was because they left Plymouth and they named it because they were so grateful they got there. Complete fabrication.

Total coincidence. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, it's logical. Certainly there's plenty of places in the world that are named after places that people have come from. Boston, Massachusetts, there were a lot of people from Boston, Lincolnshire, that were involved in that. So, and that was 10 years after this. But now, the Plymouth thing, there was this new Plymouth, which had, it wasn't an established place.

It was an abandoned Native American settlement called Pertuxet. But on the English map, it was already called Plymouth, and they'd seen that map. And, yeah, the other Plymouth, that was just because of the speed well-being, a dodgy ship. I want to understand who's on board here, but let's mark the time here. They have now tried to leave responsibly in the middle of summer, but they are now leaving from Plymouth in the middle of September. September 16th, 1620 is when they famously depart. That is real late in the year to be making a transatlantic voyage.

it sort of seals the fate that they're going to end up in very bad conditions when they get there. Yeah, so it's hurricane season. Yes, exactly. It's not, you know, if you were going to get on a ship now, you're not allowed. You're not allowed to do it this time of year. And so the weather inevitably was going to be bad. The voyage, it took them 66 days. So September, what kind of time are you going to get there?

It's going to be the middle of winter. They've got no homes to live in. They don't know where they're going to live. It's extremely cold. How can they start growing their food? You know, all of these things, which if you're going to do, create a colony 101, those things aren't going to be on that list. And they would have known this.

I mean, that was common knowledge. Certainly the semen would have understood this, that it was going to take a couple of months and they were going to end up in the winter. That's how determined these people really were, though. I mean, they couldn't go back. They had cut their ties to the homeland. Take me through some of the personalities. on board. This now one ship they have given up to Speedwell. The captain of this was a guy named

Christopher Jones, and that's only important to recognize that there are those who are religious on this voyage and there are those who are not. And yet they're all in this together. Yeah, I mean, I think when you say they were religious and they weren't religious, everybody had to be religious to some degree because it was the law. You know, you had to go to church and you had to follow the rules of the church. The king was the head of the church. The king was the head of state. It was pretty strict. This period of time was when people started to question some of those rights that we now take for granted, you know, around religious tolerance and people being able to worship God or actually not worship God.

Those arguments were being made by people who were associated with these people at that time. They were leaders at that time in England, in Holland, and some of them were obviously travelling over to America as well, partly to escape England. I'll be right back after this short break. Meantime, if you'd like us to cover anything specifically, if you have any ideas of subject matter we should be looking at, send us an email at a H-H at historyhit.com. We'd love to hear from you.

So you've got on the shit the people that we've referred to as the saints. So the pilgrims saw themselves as the saints. They believed in predestination, that there was a place in heaven for them because they'd been selected by God. And the other people who were outside of that group were referred to sometimes as the strangers. So they were the less religious people, if you like. They were the people who were possibly leaving because, at the lack of jobs in England,

because of the risks around poor harvests or wanting newer opportunities, plague being around. You know, there were lots of reasons why they possibly wanted to leave England. And there was one little group of children, four children, who were sent on the voyage with no parents because the man they had thought was their father, had divorced their mother, and sent them away believing that they were the product of adultery.

So there's less different backstories for all of these characters, if you like, on the Mayflower. And some of them are quite sad. So you have got these two different groups, the saints and the strangers. and that becomes a challenge, particularly as things progress, and it becomes clear that they're not heading to the place that they intended to go to. Who are they led by? I think because you've got the two different groups, it's hard to say who were the leaders, if you like,

because I think you've got leaders within the Pilgrim Group, but there were certainly differences and difficulties between these two groups. So the first governor of the colony, once they got to America, was called John Carver. And he actually died quite quickly after they arrived. So he wasn't governor for very long. And after that, William Bradford became the governor. And he had been a young man who was only 18 years old

when he originally fled England with William Brewster, who's sometimes known as the Pilgrim Elder, kind of an advisor, a preacher for them at times. He printed pamphlets and was quite prominent in the, Leiden community. So Bradford, when they made the voyage, he was 30 years old. And so he would go on to become their leader. And he was governor on and off so many years after the establishment of the colony. While on board, they're living in this five foot, you know, there's headspace is five feet high. It's tiny. And they're splitting up the space with blankets. You can imagine the scene,

living on the bare minimum of nutrition, you know, and doled out bits of water and so forth. This is a long, long haul. There is a birth on board. A woman named Elizabeth Hopkins gives birth to a son. They appropriately named Oceanus. Tell me about some of the other personalities that emerge on this voyage. And how do they get through it together? Do they describe that in the diaries and the record?

Yeah, I think possibly one of the most challenging relationships that I remember William Bradford describing in his diary was between the pilgrims and one of the crew. And he's one of the few people who actually died on the voyage. And he describes in detail how this particular man was, he was basically being really horrible to the pilgrims and really mean to them. They were seasick, it was not a good voyage, and I think he was being horrible to them about that. And Bradford used it as an opportunity for a lesson in describing God's providence.

He talked about God's providence before about how God has provided for them and effectively gives them signs and shows the way. Because in this case, this man who was, he used the word, contemming, he was despising the pilgrims, then dies in quite an elaborate and horrible way. And all the crew, they all remark upon the fact that it's, because he'd been so horrible, and that for Bradford's, this is God's providence. So there was obviously tensions, you know, between those who were leading the ship in terms of the crew, those who were leading the pilgrim group.

And then as they get towards America, the leading strangers, if you like, the non-pilgrims, who will be thinking about the needs of their own families. So the other thing that you need to think about in terms of who's on their ship is, it is the nature of these families. And there are children of different ages. You said that there's one passenger who gave birth, another one gave birth a bit later and had a child called Peregrine, which means pilgrim. And it would certainly have been challenging. And there were the separatist families and the other group were also families as well, a mixed group.

Explain to me the day-to-day life of this kind of voyage. I mean, we just skip past this. It's always a very quick thing. But I imagine this is really where relationships are formed and locked in. I mean, this is really a building block experience for this community, isn't it? This voyage. I think it would certainly have been life-changing. Just the, you know, the length of the voyage, I think the strength of their faith must have been significant in helping them to cope with it.

You know, whether or not they did cope with it, the colony governor that died when they got there, his wife died six weeks later and Bradford described that was of a broken heart. I mean, they must have had such stress that that kind of thing was happening. And that was how they described that. But the stress they were under on the voyage, no doubt impacted their health and survival rates after they got there. What did they eat? Well, I think shipped biscuits and things like that would have been important. It would have been hard to get your five a day fruit and veg, certainly.

And they had to do things like because of the delays in the voyage I mentioned in the previous episode, I think they had to sell some butter at Southampton to help pay some of the debts they were accruing because of the delays that they've had and because of having to fix the ships and things. Something like butter that's got lots of fats and that would have been good for them to have had. So to have lost that, to have lost some of your food. stores. Yeah. But to have been more people on the ship, you know, there were lots of things that would

have been challenging. But actually this pattern of, you know, almost verging on having that starvation, if you like, that wasn't necessarily the case for that first void, but it was a something that happened within the colony over the subsequent years because of the challenges of growing your own food as well. So it was the start of a very difficult period for a lot of them. It's really important to underscore the fact that these folks have no clue what they're doing in terms of sailing. It's one thing for adventurers and discoverers and explorers to go off and stake a flag in a strange land who have lots of experience at sea and so forth.

That's what's so extraordinary about this story. It really is. And Wyatt has come down the ages as a fundamental building block of the American culture, really. This is the ultimate team building experience. They go to the edge of terror together. They face death, essentially, every single day together. And they are delivered. And for these folks, these hardcore Christians,

they would have seen this as a salvation, what they had gone through. And to arrive on these shores mostly safe, as you say, not much death has accompanied them, which is extraordinary. This would have been a huge message from God, wasn't it? Yes, I think it probably helped them have vindication for what they saw that they were doing and what they were wanting to achieve, it must have helped them through.

I think what's really interesting about the Pilgrim story is how it's been picked up and how it's been retold and actually the history of the history is as significant in many ways. William Bradford was on the ship. 20 years later, he wrote his diary. So it wasn't, he didn't write it at the time.

He was reflecting on it sometime later. And he was then telling the story of his life, basically. His own story got lost for a period, turned up again in the Bishop of Fulham's Library in London. In the 1850s, his diary had got lost in around the time of American independence, but it ended up back over here and was repatriated to the States and was picked up again. And then you have the formation later that century, the General Society of Mothar, descendants and references to the story by politicians. So John Quincy Adams, the sixth president of the United States, refers to the pilgrims in an important speech in 1802. Foregrounding the

importance of that team building that you've called it that was enshrined in a document that they had to create to record their agreement to deal with the tensions that there were between the saints and the strangers. When they arrive, Anna, they have arrived at a place they didn't mean to get to. Their eventual destination is not where they had planned to go. Obviously, the first place they wanted to go to was Hudson Bay, right? I mean, that was what anyone would have known, certainly back in Holland, because Henry Hudson had gone there in 1609. So they knew that that place was a good harbor. They were shooting for that, but they ended up going north of that. Can you explain how they got things wrong? I think the weather had something to do with it. We've talked about it was the wrong time of year

and they hit some weather when they started to get near the coast and they ended up around the back side of Cape Cod and where that land sticks out. So you've got Provincetown on the tip of Cape Cod and they were the far side of that piece of land. And so because of the weather being so bad. They came up to the tip to that top where Provincetown is now and they moored themselves there and they decided that they couldn't get down to where they'd been intending to go around Hudson Bay area and they were just about to hit wintertime and so they had to make a decision about where they were going to stay and that's when these conversations were having to happen. There was a realization that people weren't happy, they weren't happy that they were in the wrong place.

And they also knew that the permission they got was then invalid. So what were they going to do? They had to come to some kind of resolution because they knew they needed to work together if they were all going to survive. So they create what is famously now known as the Mayflower Compact. Can you explain this, what is basically a contract, right? Yeah. And I think maybe the most famous.

words in it is that they described themselves as a civil body politic. So they agreed that they would work together for the mutual benefit of the whole group to establish their colony in the hope that they could then all survive. So they continued in the way that they had planned, but just in a slightly different area. They didn't stay off the tip of Provincetown. They needed to find a harbor, a natural harbor, where they could moor the ship while they worked out where they were actually going to live. And so they spent some time scouting that area, looking for that place. Well, it's a long strip of land. They arrive at Provincetown as the tip of Cape Cod, November 11th. They're not going to land until later in December, the 21st of December, 1620.

So that whole, more than a month, is about finding out where they're going to land. You had mentioned the settlement there was already on the map. Would they have known that? Yeah, so on the map they had, it was called Plymouth, we talked about. The two Plymouths and that was there, but it was Butuxet, and it was directly across, if you like, from where they had been moored where Provincetown is. And there was an area where it was easier to park the ship effectively. Exactly.

No wonder they didn't want to leave. I mean, they were in basically the Cape Cod Sound in the bay there. And it would have been so much calmer than all these months before as they were going on the ocean. You can just, it comes down to just human discomfort, really. Let's stay put. And this becomes the fateful choice to stay put. I want to understand better why the Mayflower Compact had to be made. I think it was really to address the risk of conflict among the passengers

and probably among those leading men particularly. Because was the idea that they would be dropped off, you know, according to the original schedule, they would essentially have been dropped off, some time would have been taken, and then that ship would have headed back to England, right? Yes, and it did ultimately do that. It did go back to England, but I think much later than they'd intended. Because of the weather. Yeah, they couldn't do that straight away.

So at that point, these very unhappy crew members who had no desire to live in the new world, they were making a buck, suddenly have to live with these people that they've been. been on the ship for it for two months and they have to create this thing. How many of those crewmen actually stayed and became part of the community? I think there's a lot less known about the crew than there are about the passengers. And the passengers who we know the most about are the ones who had descendants. So logically there, some of the crew they did go back, you know. But actually the period in the six months following the landing was dire in terms of survival.

So some of them will have died as well because this is when disease set in for a lot of them. And I want to understand what's especially significant about the Mayflower Compact because that's often overlooked by people as we go screaming towards the big Thanksgiving dinner, which was apocryphal. The Mayflower Compact is important for what reason? Okay. Well, I talked about John Quincy Adams a little bit and his speech that he made in 1802. And it was at this point that the Pilgrim story, which had been a story of religious significance, it was about faith and the foundation of churches where people were free to worship for themselves up to that point. And this is when the religious story becomes used in a more political way and it becomes a civic story. And this is when America, the United States of America, is creating its own origin narratives based on the story.

stories of the people who came there first, who were European. This obviously overlooks the significance and importance of the indigenous people who were there already. So John Quincy Asims, his own father, John Adams, had been one of the founding fathers of that United States of America. And so he talks about the compact in this political way by linking it to the recently drafted Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and this is what he says in his speech. He gives this speech at Plymouth Ravkin, Forefather's Day.

One remarkable incident is the execution of that instrument of government by which they formed themselves into a body politic the day after their arrival upon the coast. This is perhaps the only instance in human history of that positive original social compact, which speculative philosophers have imagined as the only legitimate source. of government, here was a unanimous and personal assent by all the individuals of the community to the association by which they became a nation. So they're using this story to represent the origins of the new nation. And it becomes significant even more following the Civil War because Thanksgiving is adopted nationally as a holiday. Yeah, it's very interesting. I mean,

It's taking this essential event, this struggle and this creation of this settlement as the building block of a great mythology, a very useful mythology, true in many regards, but definitely inflated, to create the story of a nation built by God, by people worshipping God, but ultimately creating something together that is of an economic nature. It's a very interesting moment when a real essential aspect of the American civilization, the American society, has been laid down. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's interesting to think about what we understand their vision for the colony was and possibly how it developed. Because there's quite significant shifts between the first generation who land there and establish the colony. And then what's happened as you get to the next generations and the next generations and the next. need to the feeling that they need to spread that next generation. And so the core ideals of the colony and the religious practice that were held by the original leading pilgrims effectively break down over time as those other generations follow.

Well, Plymouth then becomes part of, or Patoxia becomes part of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. the Dutch come and settle all the Hudson Valley and all of this early founding of the European new world takes place. But the pilgrims were really one of the first, this in Jamestown. And we need to give them the credit due for the sheer courage and determination involved in this.

But then the upshot of it is such an interesting storytelling process, isn't it? That's what really comes out of this. I mean, right down to my generation, certainly, where we're hearing about the Native Americans sitting down with these colonists, having a peaceful meal, all of this stuff is used by future generations to kind of hone this storytelling. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think it's really important to think how the story is being used and why it's being used. And so you can look at that depending on who is telling the story and which bits of the story they choose to tell. One of the things that for many years, particularly in Britain, the pilgrims, have been known as the Pilgrim Fathers, which I've challenged by pointing out the fact that actually there were some women on that boat, you know, it seems like a basic thing.

And the idea of Pilgrim fathers creates as well, I think, an image in your head of elders, perhaps wise older men. And so beyond the idea of the being women there, contributing to ultimately the success of the colony, it's also, I think, important to remember that when they were fleeing England and Leiden to some extent, they were young. So they weren't these elders, which are often represented, particularly from the American side, because they were older when they were in America.

But when they were here and when they were making decisions to leave England and Holland, they were young, they were radical. it's a lot easier to risk things, I think, for younger people sometimes. And that has got to be part of this story. William Bradford was 18 when he fled England. He was 30 when they left Holland. And he was the leader of the colony within a year. And so he shaped that story. They were having children.

There were young children. You know, that's a significant thing to think about in terms of why were they doing, what were they were doing, and how did they manage to achieve it. Yeah, sure. Well, it's certainly a story told from one dimension. You know, I'm recounting my life as a white American and being taught in a primarily white school, all of this stuff

and other sectors of society have their own view of this for sure, and that's important to consider. But Anna Scott is a researcher at the University of Lincoln, England, who has written extensively in the Pilgrims and knows a lot about them, as we have found out in these two episodes, I invite you, please, to listen to them together. This episode and also the previous one cover what is usually ignored, how these people even got on boats and came across the ocean, let alone what they did afterwards.

Thank you so much, Anna. Nice to meet you. Happy Thanksgiving. Thanks so much, Don. Hello, folks. Thanks for listening to American History Hit. Each week, we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of great content, like mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements, to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode. By hitting like and follow, you help us out, which is great,

but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share with a friend. American History Hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support. Bye for now.