American History Hit - The US Marines' Pacific War

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

When US Marines landed on the island of Guadalcanal in the Pacific, in August 1942, they were taking part in the first US ground offensive of World War 2. As Saul David tells Don, in taking on the Japanese in the Pacific, they would go on to engage in some of the bloodiest fighting of the whole war. Produced and mixed by Benjie Guy. Senior Producer: Charlotte Long. For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here.If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts, and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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The only sound is the lapping of the sea against the ship and the murmuring and shuffling of troops on deck preparing to go ashore. 16,000 U.S. soldiers are preparing to storm Guadalcanal Island, currently occupied by Japanese troops. Suddenly, bright yellow-green flashes fill the air as the ship. shelling of the coast begins. U.S. planes bomb and machine gun the beaches, clearing the way for the troops to land. Troops are loaded onto landingraft and make their way to shore. Everyone is tense, not knowing when the Japanese army will appear. They reach the beach unopposed, make their way to the edge of the jungle, and wait. They will soon become the first U.S. soldiers to engage in battle in World War II, and they will be involved in some of the most vicious fighting of the whole war.

Hello and welcome to our podcast. I'm Don Wildman, and today we have the great fortune to meet an acclaimed author, military historian, scholar, and broadcaster, whose list of written works encompasses a wide breadth of content from the Zulu War of 1879 to British colonialism and ample histories of World War II. Lord, it leaves one breathless, and you're not even an old man. Welcome, Saul David, to American history hit. Thanks, Don. Very good to be here. I'm so honored. It is the 80th anniversary of, well, so much about World War II. I mean, we'll be spending the next four years marking various milestones all around the world. But here in America, and in this particular year, it's the 80th anniversary of the beginning of the Pacific War between the United States and Japan. And upon this occasion, you've released a magnificent new book on the very subject, Devil Dogs. May I just read the title? Devil Dogs, King Company, Third Battalion, Fifth Marines, from Guadalcanal to the shores of Japan. Wow, the title alone is epic, never mind the tale you tell.

Why this book and now? Well, a couple of years ago, I dipped my toe into the story of the Americans fighting in the Pacific, and a little bit of British, actually, came into the story a tiny bit. And that was in Crucible of Hell, which, of course, is the story of the final great battle, although the participants didn't know it at the time, for the island of Okinawa, which is the most subtly of the sort of Japan prefectures. You wouldn't call it a home island, but it's one of the outer islands of Japan's polity. and it got me thinking this was the endgame.

How did the Marines? I mean, I didn't just follow the Marines. I was following U.S. Army, too, in that book. But how did the Marines, who were the first to fight in the Pacific, or at least the first to take the offensive in the Pacific? How did they get here? It would have been a massive story to tell, to be honest, Don, if I tried to tell the whole story of the Pacific.

So I decided to home in on a very specific unit, a band of brothers-type treatment, I suppose you would call it, for the US Marines and the Pacific. And I chose three, five Marines, but also K Company of that battalion. Why did I choose K Company? With two main reasons, K company were there from the start, and they were there at the end. They were in the initial group that were in the vanguard of the invasion of Guadalcanal. No doubt we'll talk about that in a minute. And as you say, Don, it was the first, or at the beginning of the Pacific War. And the first time American ground troops have properly taken the offensive in the Second World War. But,

also K Company were there at the end. They fought the right the way through Okinawa. So maybe there were another four or five companies that you could say the same four, but K companies are a very special company because it includes not only arguably the most famous writer, I suppose you'd call it, of the Pacific War, and that's Eugene Sledge, but also a number of other people inspired by Sledge's great work with the old breed to tell their stories. And what's particularly exciting about a lot of these books and also the other first-hand material, of course, that I gathered letters, Dari's contemporaneous accounts, is that they were written by enlisted men. And to have first-rate accounts, the Sledge one being top of the pile, to be written by enlisted men, certainly in the

British perspective of things, British and Commonwealth is very unusual. So it allows you really to tell the story from the ground up. And it was a great privilege to do so. Let's talk about K Company. King Company is the other name for this, right? Yeah, it can get confusing, Don. I mean, K company is the way the guys themselves would have called, you know, that's what they called it, K company or company K. King Company is the phonetic term that was used for radio calls, basically. It's their radio signs. So you had all the different terms that we know, EZ for E, Bravo for B, Alpha for A.

And that's what you use over the radio. But for the guys themselves, they always called it K company or company K. But it's also, I think, a little bit, you know, gives it a bit more character to call it King Company. And that's what they were also known as. This was also the group that the famous TV series, The Pacific, was about. That's right. What's interesting about the Pacific is I think a great opportunity was missed with that series.

It was a wonderful series. I mean, the cinematography was off the charts. Huge amounts of money went into, and it looked fabulous. But it didn't have the narrative coherency of Band of Brothers because it wasn't able to follow a single unit. My book hadn't been written. There wasn't anything else like it for the Pacific War. And so what they did is they knitted together a lot of different accounts, including the work by Eugene Sledge with the old breed.

And they effectively homed in on five or six characters, but not all of whom were connected. So you jumped around the Pacific War a little bit, and you didn't have that intimacy that you get by following a single company. So while a bit of the K-35 story is told in the Pacific, in particular the start of the story, that is Guadalcanal and Cape Bloster is not there.

And that is the gap that, of course, that I fill in with this book. My father actually enlisted in World War II, and ended up in the Philippines at the end of it, as a mere MP, but nonetheless, the entire Pacific campaign has always been personally very interesting to me. But not until I read your book, did I understand the chronology, did I understand how it was all knitted together? And that's the brilliance of it, because you have both the relationships between these men and then the strategy of the war as well. But because you're following this one group, you really get a clear passage. You understand how it really runs, at least in that sphere of the war. So the book begins,

as does the U.S. ground offensive with Guadalcanal. Why was Guadalcanal chosen as the target the first place we landed? Well, Guadalcanal, if you look on a map, is sort of in the middle of nowhere. I mean, it's off what was then Papua New Guinea. It's above Australia. But actually, the best way to think of Guadalcanal is really as a blocking position in relation to the Japanese coming south towards Australia. and the US forces and indeed the Australian and Commonwealth forces,

trying to block that initial movement and then go on the offensive. So it's partly an attempt to stop to stem the flow, frankly, Don, from what has been an unbroken run of success for the Japanese, certainly in terms of ground fighting since Pearl Harbor. I mean, they have run amok not only through the Southern Pacific, but also through the Far East. They've taken British possessions, they've taken Dutch possessions, they've taken French possessions, and they've also taken, of course, the Philippines,

and they are heading no bones about it for Australia. So Guadalcanal is one of the places where they're going to block them getting further south, but also it's a chance to begin the rollback of this advance that the Japanese had had. And one big advantage, or a little bit of an advantage, the Americans have got, just before the Guadalcanal campaign, which takes place, or begins in August 1942, is the fact that they've won what we now know is a very seminal, battle, and that's the Battle of Midway. It's a naval battle in which the superior forces of the Imperial Japanese Navy are defeated by the US Navy, and it's a close-run thing to be truthful. But

the end result of that battle is that the advance in the Central Pacific is pushed back. So what's happening in Guadal Canal is the advance in the Southern Pacific needs to be rolled back. So that's why they land there, what they're really looking for when they land on Guadalcanal. And anyone has seen the Pacific, seen some of the other great films that include the story of Guadalcanal, like the thin red line, will know that it's pretty much just jungle they land into. And the job of the forces who land there is to retake an airfield that the Japanese are in the process of building. And of course, if they can construct it and use it, it's going to be very effective for them carrying on their advance down towards Australia. It had taken some time for the Marines,

let alone the US military, to launch an offensive in the Pacific. I mean, it had been six months since Pearl Harbor. Why was that? What was the essential strategy of the United States? We were paying more attention to Europe than the Pacific. That was the decision, correct? Yeah, absolutely right. I mean, there's a well-worn phrase that was actually coined even before Pearl Harbor, and that was Europe first. So during 1941, before the Japanese attacked at Pearl Harbor, the president of the United States and his senior commanders are very much thinking, sooner or later we're going to be called into this war. They didn't know Japan would be involved, of course, but they are assuming, of course, that they at some stage, are going to have to fight Germany.

And there's very much a decision that if it comes to a two-front war against Japan and Germany, it's always going to be a question of defeating Germany first. And the real logic behind that is that Germany was considered to be the more serious threat, both to Europe, but also to the United States. And that once Germany had been dealt with, Germany and its allies, of course, because by this time it's being supported by Italy, the Axis powers, then you can turn on Japan. deal with that. But it was never as simple as that. And I think Admiral King, who's the senior

naval guy in the US Chiefs of Staff, realizes very quickly that actually you can't just fight one campaign and leave the other in abeyance. You've got to fight them simultaneously. So then it's really a question of resources. And without question, Don, there was always a determination, probably rightly, to give the bulk of the resources to the European Theatre of Operations and less to the Pacific Theatre of Operations. But slowly but surely, Admiral King was able to make sure that more resources were devoted to the Pacific. And I think that was the right thing to do because even by the summer of 1942, Japan is still on the offensive and it needs to be turned back.

And it's time to send in the Marines. This was a war that was invented for the Marines almost, right? I mean, this is when they become the fabled force that they are recognized as today. Yeah, I mean, with grateful sight, I suppose you would call it, a lot of work is going on in the 1930s building up. the Marines, the U.S. Marines amphibious capability. I mean, this is at a time you need to stress where no army in the world, apart from possibly the Japanese, really has much of an amphibious capability. And so all that work that was done in the 1930s, originally with the first Marine

Brigade and eventually by 1940 with what becomes the first Marine division is absolutely crucial. A lot of thinking goes into this, a lot of doctrinal work, but also a lot of work on kit, including the development of what becomes the Higgins boat, which is the first landing craft. And then, of course, they're thinking about what they're going to need to get even heavier kit on board. And it's really the Americans who lead the way in all of this, Don, as I'm sure you know, in terms of building the capability for the landings, of course, that are going to be absolutely vital in Europe as well and ultimately D-Day. So, and this groundwork is all done by the US Marines in the 1930s. So that by 1942, they already have

a significant capability to land on islands, land on hostile shorelines. And it is, to be truth, the most difficult military operation you can carry out and succeed in. It's such an incredibly odd campaign to take these small islands over that really are, in and of themselves, not that strategically interesting or important, but it's the only way to make our way towards the home islands of Japan. The title of the book is Devil Dogs. Can you explain to me why that title, where did that name come from? Well, the Marines, as we've just been discussing, of course,

were developing their amphibious capability in the 1930s, but their fame as a fighting force, as an infantry fighting force, well, it comes all the way back from their history at the beginning of the 18th century, but in particular, in terms of the name devil dogs, comes to them in the First World War. So the Marines are fighting a number of pretty fierce battles towards the end of the First World War in 1918, in particular at Bellow Wood, where they accomplish extraordinary things.

And that's in particular the Fifth Marines. and of course, K Company comes from the 3rd Battalion of the 5th Marines, hence the name. Now, there is a bit of controversy over the name, to be truthful, Don, because although it appeared in a number of American newspapers that this was a name that the Germans had given the 5th Marines in honor or in homage, I suppose you would call it, of their fighting prowess, there is nothing in the German records to back that up. But in a sense, it's irrelevant because they had fought tremendously well there. They were highly respected by the Germans.

And if it was a name coined by an American journalist, which it might well have been, it stuck. And certainly the devil dogs like the name, and they called themselves that as their nickname. And hence my use of it for these guys in the Second World War. Of course, they're fighting a different foe. They're fighting the Japanese. But their tenacity and their endurance and all the other qualities that were required to fight these extraordinary island battles were in abundance with the Marines. And that doesn't mean for a second, by the way. It sounds like if your dad was in the Philippines, he was probably in the U.S. Army.

And it doesn't mean that the U.S. Army didn't have their own qualities. They absolutely did. But there was something special about the U.S. Marines and their ability to come by sea, experts in an amphibious warfare, but also hang on in a long campaign. There was always an assumption that Marines could never fight a long campaign. Their job was to get off the beaches. They didn't really have the same firepower as a U.S. Army division, and therefore they wouldn't be any good in a long campaign.

Well, I think the Pacific War and the story of devil dogs, Raymux proves that that was not the case. They fight in Guadalcanal for months, this particular company, and then move on. Describe to me what Guadalcanal was like for K Company. Well, when they land there, they're, of course, expecting opposition on the beach, and there isn't any. So initially, they're very nonpluss to be truthful. Like, where is everyone, is their first thought?

But what they very quickly realize is that while there's no opposition on the beaches, is it's the terrain and the climate that is going to be as much of a foe as the increasing number of Japanese reinforcements that get poured onto the island. So what you really got is a battle for survival. It's very interesting right at the beginning of the Guadalcanal campaign, the US Navy loses a naval battle and withdraws most of its warships and also its supply ships. So that the first marine division of which, of course, the devil dogs of my story form just a small part are effectively marooned on the island fighting the Japanese who are there. And as I say,

they're getting reinforced all the time. But also they're fighting the climate. I mean, it's brutally tough conditions in jungle warfare with all the insects and, you know, and creepy crawlies that that brings with it, but also all the disease, the difficulty of surviving in wet climate for months on air, literally months on end, as you pointed out. And these guys do not get rotated out of that, out of that environment. They are there from start to finish for four months. By the time they come out, most of them are weighing about a third less in body weight. Almost all of them have caught malaria. So they've been through, you know, bouts of malaria, which of course comes, it's a chronic illness, which keeps hitting you again and again and again, you're debilitated.

They are fighting dysentery, but also they're fighting what they quickly realize is a pitiless enemy. There's a battle quite early on, or at least an engagement early on during Guadalcanal, where a patrol, the famous Gertga patrol, which is really an intelligence patrol, gets captured by the Japanese, and every single one of them are butchered to a man. Not only are they all kills, their body parts are left strewn along the beach so that K Company, which is one of the first units in to look for these guys, actually finds these body parts. And of course, that has a hell of an impact on these guys, because they realize we're up against people, one, they won't surrender, and they're not going to take prisoners. and of course this inevitably brings about retaliation and begins the sort of dehumanizing process on both sides of the conflict

that is one of the most striking and frankly tragic aspects of the Pacific War. I'll be back in just a moment with more from Saul on American History yet. It really is unthinkable to the average person to be involved in such a conflict and to go through those kinds of experiences. Having written about this and researched it to such degree,

do you have a better sense of how these Marines, and maybe even soldiers in general, you know, the Army soldiers in general, how this kind of works for them? Do they just shut down and dehumanize themselves? How does it work? Well, first of all, they are trained to get them into a place where they can kill. I mean, I think we all know that. Every element of military training does that. But in the Marines, it's particularly ferocious.

They very much break them down to build them up again. I mean, anyone who's seeing any of the feature films about Marine Boot Camp, it really is like that, you know, all personality, all individuality is knocked out of you. That's not to say that you can't think for yourself as a soldier, but to get you to the point where the enemy needs to be tackled, you can't think twice about it, you've got to get to a point where when the enemy is in your sights, as it were, you are going to be prepared to pull the trigger, which, you know, to us civilians today is a bit of an ask, frankly. But it was more than that, of course, in the Pacific, because on the one hand, all these young

American guys are prepared to kill if their lives were under threat or their mate's lives were under threat. But what they gradually realized is that they were up against an enemy who I've just pointed out really wasn't playing by even vaguely acceptable rules of war. They would not take prisoners. They would murder pretty much everyone who came into their hands. They would pretend to surrender and then kill the people who were taking them prisoner. They would be wounded but still be fighting even after they're wounded. And of course, the end result of all of this is that however much much training had gone into getting these guys to fight in any form of combat. The experience of fighting against the Japanese took them one step further.

It took them to a very dark place, actually. And I think one of the striking things about the book is when I look at some of the guys who survive, what happens to them after the war. And you can see pretty clearly, Don, that every single one of them is suffering more or less from some form of what they would have called it at the time, battle fatigue. We now call it PTSD. I mean, without question. And in some cases, it went on for years.

to say the least. I mean, that's an understatement. I mean, what these guys go through. The sheer carnage involved in these battles, how much of that, I mean, I'm thinking about the way that the Japanese fleet, the Tito Bukai, this massive force meant to overwhelm, how much of that was also part of the on-the-ground strategy of fighting these battles with the soldiers? Yeah, I mean, I had a very interesting chat about this with a, you know, very eminent American historian Richard B. Frank, who's written the seminal work, frankly, on the Battle of Guadalcanal. Wonderful, wonderful book. And if anyone wants to drill down into even more detail, read that book. But Richard B. Frank pointed out to me that this was not a coincidence the way the Japanese

fought, this aggression, this determination, this spirit, as it were, this almost samurai spirit. It was designed to break the will of the opponent. And there's no doubt there was an element of racism and all of this because, and you saw it on both sides. I won't deny that. But you definitely saw it on the Japanese side in the sense that they felt themselves a superior civilization to the Americans to the West generally. And they also believe that as warriors, they were, you know, beyond compare. And that almost by sheer power of will, they would overcome these kind of weaker, softer, more materialistic Americans. That was the belief. And that's one of the reasons why they were so aggressive in the way they fought. Now, ultimately, if you're well trained,

You're good soldiers like the Marines were, and you aren't going to break with these mass ranks attacks that the Japanese used, particularly at the early stages of the Pacific War, actually you're going to cause carnage among the Japanese. So they would attack in these sort of so-called Banzai attacks where they would try and overwhelm an American position. And as long as they kept their discipline, which generally speaking in the Marines, they did, they were able to stand up to the Japanese. And as you go through the Pacific War, and you see this in the story of devil dogs, they begin to change their tactics.

no more mass-ranked attacks. Now they're beginning to dig in, dig holes into the islands they're defending, create a kind of fortress and wait for the Americans to come on them. And of course, this becomes incredibly costly for the American troops. And it probably reaches its apogee

in the final two battles of the story, and that's Pelaloo and Okinawa. Well, that's the big theme change, really. It goes from the most offensive thing, which is Pearl Harbor, to defensive based on what has occurred throughout this time. And Guadocanal played a lot

A big part in that. From Guadalcanal, K-Kompany moves on to Cape Glou. And then Pelot, as you say, how different are these battles as we go for K company and in general? Cape Glou is very interesting, actually, because I think that it's really been lost off the story of the Pacific. We don't really hear much about it. We, you know, there are all these iconic moments. Okinawa is one of them, Iwojima, Pelaloo, to a lesser extent. But Cape Gloucester's almost vanished off the chart of grand moments in the Pacific War. And I don't know why, to be truthful. The story of Cape Gloucester is another version of Guadalcanal in the sense that it's another jungle fight, but it's a jungle that is even less hospitable than it was on Guadalcanal. You know,

200 feet high trees they're moving through with thick jungle terrain and working their way off the beaches to try and take ridge lines that are heavily defended by the Japanese. And I said that how their tactics develop over the course of the Pacific War, but already in Cape Gloucester they're digging into these ridge lines and making them incredibly difficult obstacles for the Marines to overcome. And K Company tackles one particular ridge. This is a very bad pronunciation. You'll have to excuse me, but a gory ridge. But actually it goes on to be known as Walt's Ridge because the battalion commander, that is the third battalion of the Fifth Marines, under whose command, of course, K Company comes, a man called Walt leads the attack, effectively leads K company up

this ridge, or at least is involved in the attack. And they capture this ridge. It's got other nicknames Bloody Ridge, but it was an unbelievably brutal fight that effectively tore the heart out of K Company. I mean, some really heartbreaking stories about the capture of the ridge. I mean, if I was to tell you, Don, that all three platoon commanders die in that battle and you only have three platoons to a company, you will realize how dangerous it was for junior commanders in the U.S. Marines generally, and in particular in this battle. And K. Company takes horrific casualties capturing that ridge, but they do capture it. And it is, in my view, one of the great feats of the Pacific War, but it has been forgotten.

So, again, you've got a very formidable foe, but you've also got this unbelievably inhospitable terrain on Cape Gloucester. Was there any break for these guys? Did they ever get rotated out? Well, actually, they did get a little bit of a break, in particular between Guadalcanal and Cape Gloucester. So they come out of Guadalcanal in December, and they get taken to Australia,

and they're originally taken to Brisbane, which is in the north of Australia, or effectively the north, north east of Australia. When they're in Brisbane, they're not really happy about it. It's still effectively the tropics and a lot of mosquitoes, and they're not very impressed with it. But they very relatively quickly get moved down to Melbourne, which is the different kettle of fish.

It's much more temperate, much cooler temperatures down there. And it's also a more sophisticated city, which in effect, although it wasn't in reality, in effect was the capital of Australia at that time. And they are given an unbelievable welcome by the Australians. And so they spend a good six months in Melbourne, having a pretty good time, frankly, drinking the beer, meeting the Australian girls, some of whom become lifelong partners. I mean, one of my main characters in the book is a guy called R.V. Bergen, who also, as you mentioned before, was one of the featured characters in the Pacific. And R.V. Bergen meets a lady there called Florence Risley, who will go on to become his wife. So he's desperate to get back to Australia after Cape Gloucester, which takes place at the end of the year.

So you've got almost a year's gap. A lot of it spent training. It's not like they're not doing anything. They are having a good time in R&R in Melbourne, but they're also doing a lot of training. And they're refilling their ranks, frankly, because when they come out of Guadalcanal, they are in no fit state to fight for a good lee period.

So you've got that almost year gap, which is very welcome between Guadalcanal and Cape Gloucester. And then the gap starts getting shorter because after Cape Gloucester, which is, it's a long campaign again. They don't come out until May, 1944, they're off again to Pellaloo in September 44. So that's a much shorter gap.

And in that time, they're sent to a barren island called Pavavu, which is one of the low points, frankly, of the Pacific campaign. Because although they're not fighting, they were hoping for a bit of comfort. They're hoping to go back to Australia. Well, they're actually dumped as an island with no infrastructure, rotting coconuts everywhere, land crabs and rats. And that's pretty much what the island is composed of.

And they have to, in effect, completely rebuild a tented camp. And these guys, you know, having come out of Cape Gloucester, just want to relax and recover. And what they're actually made to do is work and build this camp, which is pretty unfair, frankly. But they spend a bit of time in Pavavu, and then they go back to Pavavu after the Palau-Lu campaign, which, although it's the briefest of the four campaigns, in my view, is the most brutal of all four. And it's during Palauleu that they lose the great commander of Kay Company during this period. And, you know, officers are vital to the story. Some of the officers of K company were wonderful. They lose an awful lot of officers.

And some of them not so good. And I make no bones about what I don't think they, you know, they're up to the task. But the guy that they lose on Pellaloo, a man called Andy Haldane, who's also featured in the Pacific, is the real deal. I was beginning to think, surely he's been overhy hype. Maybe there's a bit about him that I'm going to discover that, you know, they've overblown it. You know, let's see some of the more less guarded comments about him. and actually no one has a bad word to say about him. It was unbelievably inspirational.

And here's one extra thing. I don't think it's a coincidence that Haldane started out as an enlisted man, and he gets his commission later on. And I think that often plays an absolutely crucial role in allowing an officer to understand what the ordinary guys are going through. You do a great job of that, putting us on the ground inside of the dynamics of this group. I'm just curious, did you get an understanding of how they maintain morale? I mean, again, this is just an image.

impossible task to do what these men are doing. And yet somehow they do it. And many of them, a few of them, at least return home afterwards to normal lives. How does that condition maintained, a sense of purpose, a sense of optimism, even? I think there are two real, really basic things that go into this. You can talk about patriotism, and you can talk about understanding the war effect. I don't think it was that. Yes, in the big picture they get it. They know America's been attacked and they want to do something to get back at the enemy that's attacked. America, of course, in this case, Japan. But I don't, you know, to answer your question, I don't think that's yet. I think two things are going on, really, that gets them through some of the most brutal

fighting I've ever read about and never written about. And I think it compares to, you know, the most ghastly conflicts in the history of warfare, including the Eastern Front between the Russians and the Germans. I think it's that bad. And they get through it, I think, for two reasons. One self-respect, they don't want to give in personally. They don't want to be the weak link in the chain. And the chain is the... other answer because the chain is the company. It's the unit and you don't let your mates down. So it's as simple as that. You don't want to let your mates down. And by being the weak link in the chain, you will let your mates down. So you keep going until the job's done. And some of the most

poignant bits of the story are where, and this didn't happen that often, but where guys had survived through two campaigns unscathed and then they're going home now. And a good example, it's is Thurman Miller, who's one of the key characters in the book. And Thurman Miller fights at Guadalcanal and Cape Blaster. And then he's given the option of promotion to Topkick, which is the senior enlisted man in the company, or he can go home. And he really thinks he's had enough. He thinks he's running out of luck, and he'll probably die on Pelaloo, which he might

well have done, frankly, because a lot of people did. So he makes the decision to go home, but it's really tough for him because he knows he's leaving his guys before the job is over. And he also knows he's experienced. and he's got a lot he can teach people. So he has to live with that decision for the rest of his life. And I think he struggled with it. You can see immediately after the war he's got survivors guilty.

He goes on to an unbelievably tough career down the coal mines. You know, he was a hard man from West Virginia, tough upbringing, one of 16 siblings, you know, brought up in a dirt poor family. But, you know, with a real work ethic, an unbelievable determination. And he did not want to leave those guys. And I think he suffered for the rest of his life for the fact that he did. And you and I and no one else with any kind of, you know, sensibility would blame him for coming home after he'd done his bit in those two campaigns. But he struggled with it.

I think my own father struggled with it. Just being a soldier out of action, knowing what was going on in the action, was a huge factor in American society at the time, especially in the military. It was just a big story that everyone was aware of. And I think my father carried that with him throughout his life. As a matter of fact, I was raised by a man who told me that I would not be here if not for the Adam bomb because he assumed he would be on that end Operation Downfall, which was going to go on the Home Islands. How much did these guys in K Company assume that they were going all the way to Japan? Yeah, I mean, of course, you've got one or two being rotated out at the end of the Okinawa campaign.

I mean, I mentioned R.B. Bergen, so he was on his way home, fortunately. He would have not afforded in Japan. But a hell of a lot of the other guys were going to go on to Japan. Sterling Mace, who's one of my main characters, and also, of course, the character I mentioned before, Eugene Sledge, both of them are not only assuming they know they're going to fight on the Japanese home islands, and they also know, having just fought in two of the most brutal island battles of the campaign, that it's going to be even worse on Japan. There's no question it would have been, and there is no question that an awful lot of lives were saved by the dropping of those atomic bombs. It's still very controversial to this day, Don, because it's hard for us in the 21st century. to imagine you would make that cold-blooded decision, but it was the right decision. The Japanese were not for rolling over, even as late as August, 1945.

And if those huge battles for the Japanese home islands had taken place, the casualties would have been astronomical, and of course, not just in American servicemen, in Japanese soldiers and civilians, too. It's a fundamental story for another time, but Okinawa really sets the stage for it. it's hard to believe that the Japanese could have such a campaign that could be so strong to Okina. After everything had had gone on, they had really, I mean, Okinawa goes on for weeks and weeks and weeks. I visited there myself, I saw the tunnels, I saw the nightmares that were going on, which I could tell you about in our own time. How much of a surprise was it to get into the records of Okinawa and think about the scope of that battle?

Yes, I think Okinawa is a crucial warning to the American. American politicians and senior commanders of what is to come. So you're fighting for an island which is 70 miles long. Yes, it's strategically important because it's at the base, really, of the Japanese home islands. It's about 400 miles away and it's going to prove to be an incredibly useful, both naval base, but also with the airfields that they're going to be able to fly bombers off and prepare the ground for the invasion of Japan.

But what Okinawa campaign did, as far as the American commanders were concerned, is give them a foretaste of what was happening. It's very interesting. There's a crucial meeting leading up to the decision to use the bomb in which Truman, of course, who's replaced Roosevelt in April 1945, asks his senior commanders about the difference in casualties as you're moving through the Pacific War. And they say, well, this battle we lost so many, this battle we lost so many. And the percentage of American servicemen to Japanese servicemen is getting worse as you get closer to Japan.

First point. And second point, and this is the really striking thing, the number of civilian casualties on Okinawa was off the charts. Something like, we don't know absolutely for sure there's always a debate about casualties, but we're talking in the region of 100 to 125,000, which is a third of the population. And although they weren't all killed as casualties of war, you know, by ordinance that was fired in the wrong direction, a lot of them actually take their own lives. This was very much a warning to these senior American politicians and generals that this is going to be the case when we get to Japan proper. And Truman himself says he's very explicit. I was not just concerned about American servicemen. I was also concerned about Japanese.

And I knew if they had fought as tooth and nail as they did on Okinaw. And if they had reacted to our presence by killing themselves, even though we were only trying to help them, then it was going to be multiplied in its effect when we got to the home island. It's vitally important to understand both the human and military side of war so that we can somehow move on from having these kinds of things happen. It hasn't happened yet, but books like yours go a long way in letting us explore war on the human side as well as the military. The book is called Devil Dogs. Thank you, Saul David.

Thanks, Tom. Thanks for listening to this episode of American History Hit. I hope you enjoyed it. Please don't forget to like, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. I'll see it. next time. This podcast includes music from Epidemic Sound.