American History Hit - Vietnam: Conscientious Objection in a Warzone

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

During the Vietnam War, 170,000 men received conscientious objector deferments. In this episode, we speak to one of them.Sidney Morrison joins Don to discuss his service and experiences as a medic during the war, from camaraderie in the face of danger to the psychological impacts of war.Sidney is the author of 'Frederick Douglass: A Novel'.Produced by Sophie Gee. Edited by Max Carrey. Senior Producer was Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.American History Hit is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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And when you hear explosions and suddenly screaming, you know what's coming next. Medic. And so I rush forward, as medics do, to see what's happened and what I needed to do. And immediately I can see, because on the ground in front of me was a man whose legs were thought. He had stepped on a landmine. And in the process of trying to assist, I lost my glasses. They just simply fell off. And I was looking for them very quickly, and I noticed them in some brush.

And I proceeded to step forward and reach for the glasses, and right behind me was a lieutenant. He yelled, stop from behind me. That's all he said, stop. and he pointed his finger, and right next to my right foot was a mind detonator. Hello all. Welcome back to American History Hit. I'm Don Wilden. A conscientious objector is loosely defined as, quote, an individual who has claimed the right to refuse to perform a military service on the grounds of freedom of conscience or religion, unquote.

The first conscientious objector, or CO, on reference. record was a Roman named Maximilian, who in the year 295 told his consul that due to his religious beliefs, he was unwilling to kill. And for this, he would suffer the death penalty. Since those days, conscientious objection has evolved and been absorbed into most societies. There are many variations on the idea, including those unwilling to kill, but willing to serve. Our guest today was a CEO very much in that tradition, who served as a field medic in the jungles of Vietnam. And he has been gracious enough to join us here today, 57 years after being called up in 1968. Sidney Morrison, nice to meet with you again.

Thank you, Don. It's a pleasure to be back. Listeners may recall that Mr. Morrison is the author of a recent book, Frederick Douglass, a novel. And we produced two podcasts about Frederick Douglass with him. But Sidney also has a history of his own related to other episodes we've done on Vietnam. So, Sydney, thank you for your service, first of all, and thank you for doing a third American history hit. Well, thank you for the invitation. It's a very complicated part of my life, but I think worthy of exploring with you today. I can only imagine, because I did not serve, that the memories of combat, particularly from the perspective of a field medic, never fade. Is this still present in your mind every day?

I'm reminded about the Vietnam on a daily basis for a couple of reasons. One, I have in my office where I come down every day, a scraping of the name of the day. the lieutenant who saved my life in December of 1969. I framed it when I was there at the Vietnam Memorial once it was built. I wanted to find his name. So every day, that name is for me as well as his picture that was sent to me from a surviving sister. And the story of that connection is a story that I talked about with StoryCorps. And that interview is in the files of the Library of Congress about

how I connected with the family of the man who saved my life because he was killed two weeks later. Wow. We'll get to that episode in a moment. Let's start at the beginning, how this happens. And many people don't understand the big difference with Vietnam was that there was a draft. Generations of Americans have grown up without a draft. It's now a volunteer army because of what you went through and because of the great controversy of that. So tell us about how that call happened when your number came up, 1968.

I had been attending school at UCLA, and I had what was called a college deferment. Because of that college deferment, the war, although was an object of protest, it was something that didn't impact me directly. However, because I was of age where I had to register for the draft, I registered as a conscience objector. I was willing to serve, but I was not willing to learn how to use a weapon in the name of any ideology. How did you do that? Was it on a form? Yes.

You have to go to your draft board and make a case as to why you deserve this identification. And my case is because I am a member of the Baha'i faith. And as a member of the Baha'i faith, I discovered the Baha'i faith in college. And part of the belief is the idea of the oneness of humanity and the abolition of all forms of prejudice. And also, at one point in the future, the world should unite, disarm, but maintain some kind of military for the protection of the peace.

And so I am not a pacifist, essentially, in a sense that I'm opposed to any kind of self-defense or the use of the military. But to kill someone just because they have a different identity or a different political belief or a military aim was something that was contrary to that religious value. And so because I believe in peace and world peace, but understand the need for a military, I made a case that I could serve in the military, but as long I wasn't a killer. I made the case by coming with passages from the writings of the Baha'i faith, and they granted me this designation. So just to get the chronology, you graduate from UCLA. How old are you at that point? This is 1968. I'm 21. 21 years old. You get your call in August, and that's when you declare your, your, your, your, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're status. Oh, no, no. You see, what happens is you declare your status before. Oh, I see. When you register. When you register, this is what's interesting about that moment in history, Dawn, is that

it was clear by 1968, the college deferment system was going to end. And I went on a trip to New York and came back and received a letter in August, greetings from the president and saying that I had been drafted. And this was before the lottery system. That came later in 1969. There was this period where there was the end of the draft, where the image of the college deferment, and the beginning of the lottery system. And in that period, I got called. And this is, I mean, what a year. Oh, my God. Two months ago, Martin Luther King was shot. I mean, unbelievable. Then Robert Kennedy, I was watching live TV when it happened at the ambassador. In your town where you lived?

I was celebrating his victory and then suddenly he was gone. And then I had to take finals. Then I had to attend graduation at Holy Colley Pavilion. And then I went on this trip to New York and then came back and was drafted. And by then I was swept up into this military world where you almost sealed off from whatever is happening. For example, I did not fully realize how much of the protests was happening in Chicago and all the various things that was going on. Because I was just trying to psychologically survive because the system is one where they are tempting to remake you into a soldier in a command system where everything is supposed to happen according to their will.

This is when I discovered that my identity matters to me so much because when I filled out the application for my dog tags, I wrote out the word B-A-H-A-A-A-A-posterfy I. That's how it's spelled. And when I got my dog tags back, it said other. And I was so incensed on that I stormed up to the counter. where they were making these dog tags. And I slammed it down on the counter. I said, what is this? I spelled it out and you're making them by hand. And you have letters for each of these letters. And you're going to change this because if I get killed in,

I remember saying, if I get killed in Vietnam, it's going to say, Baha'i, on my dead body, not other. And I was yelling and I looked around and behind me were my cohorts. And they were looking at me like, oh, he's gone mad. He's gone crazy. We're all in trouble because by then they were operating with the, you know, the group punishment system. Anything you did wrong, everyone got punished.

Let me take one step back because listeners may be confused. When you declare your conscientious objection, it doesn't mean you're accepted from military service. Unless you are a conscious objector which opposes all kind of military service. I see. Okay. But there are people like, now, like Jehovah's Witnesses will not serve at all. However, Seventh-day Adventists will serve, Baha'is will serve in other groups.

So we were willing to be in the military. We were just not willing to learn how to use a weapon. So when we went through basic training, as it's called, it's usually eight weeks, but we are trained for six weeks. But once we are completed training, because you're a conscience objector, you become a medical corpsman and a sense to that kind of, training and in fact basic training is placed at a designated military base in the entire country. All conscience objectors are sent to the same base. So there's a long history of conscious objection

in the U.S. Army in World War II and the Korean War. And some of these medical corpsmen have been given high military recognition because they're service. And so there's a tradition of military training as conscious objectors there in Fort St. Muson in Texas, and that's where we all were. So all of us are put together and go through this training and without the weapons training, and then we become medics. I can only imagine how many times you've had to explain that at cocktail parties. Yes. What was the general reaction to you guys? So there's a group of you who are together there in this training, but was there a negative or a positive feeling that you got from your fellow military men at that point?

The treatment we received from our supervisors was generally hostile. It was perceived that as conscious objectors, even though the history was clear, their consequences were served and with distinction and honor, there was a culture, at least in the army, that conscious objectors were not fully soldiers, they were cowards. And so there was a lot of verbal abuse with the drill sergeants. And that's part of the training anyway. And they added this other element of disdain for being a conscious objector.

It was very strange. But the impact of it was because here's a group of people, and I'm not saying with arrogance, but here's a group of people who made a commitment to religious values. And many of these people were very passionate about their values and were not willing to sacrifice them in the name of being called, you know, names and disparaged publicly. And we followed through. Anytime we were ordered to, you know, to do push-ups or run around and do whatever we didn't do to their satisfaction being yelled at and insulted, in fact, reinforced a commitment to the status that we felt that we deserved. So there was a real camaraderie amongst us in the company itself. We felt that out of the pride that we took in the status that we had made a case for,

that we deserve to be treated with dignity of nothing else, we deserve to be recognized that as contributors. And so when the training was done, we were sent to serve in medical capacities. most of my fellow trainees were sent immediately to Vietnam. For reasons that still baffle me, I was assigned to a medical office in a hospital in Fort Sam Houston typing reports. Wow. I'll take it.

And I took it. I thought, I thought, if this is where I'm going to be for the rest of the war, okay, I can live with this. And for months, my life was comfortable. I lived in a barrack that was across the park from the generals on the base. Fort Sam Houston, it's a beautiful military facility, especially where the hospital was. Then the summer of 69, I get orders to go to Vietnam. Now, every other person in my company of training went immediately, but I didn't.

And I thought, by the summer of 69, the war had escalated, the Tetopence had taken place. So they were grabbing up everybody to go to Vietnam. And when I arrived in Vietnam, I thought, because of my history as a medical clerk, I was going to be assigned to a hospital and be a medical clerk. But instead, I was assigned to an infantry platoon. And this is deep in the middle of battle. Yes. And I, in fact, I said to the sergeant who gave me my order,

I said, infantry platoon, what does that mean for a medic? And he says, wherever they go, you go. They are on a mission at night or during the day. They always have a medic. And that will be your job. 25th Infantry Platoon. Platoon Medic is what your title was. Yes, I was Infantry Petun Medic for the second 14th Infantry in the 25th Infantry Battalion.

Gotcha. Where were you stationed? In a Koochee, which was a village northeast of St. Saigon, about 25 miles to the north. Very famous today is the location of the Koochee tunnels. Yes. And there were many of those tunnels that we had to deal with, which often was a source of disaster because those tunnels was used to attack Americans from below. Sure. It's a very popular tourist attraction these days. You go there and... It's so ironic that that is the case, because I'll never forget my first pitched battle where

we went into an area of unbeknownst tunnels where we were fired upon, we withdrew to a hill and watched American Air Force drop bombs on this area. And then we were given orders to go back

and check it out, retrieved, enemy injured. And it turned out they just went deeper into the tunnels. And after the bombing, we went through the area and were shot at again. Yeah. That was even worse. It was tenacious. It was unbelievable. I did a television show on those crawling around inside those tunnels. They were very deep. It was just a bunker system essentially that was designed to do exactly what you were saying.

And that's how we learned how to be a medic because what a medic does is go to help the injured. And so I was crawling out out into the open and saw this gunner on the side come up from a tunnel. And he was about ready to shoot me. But someone shot at him and I was able to pull. wounded person. Oh, my God. You were in the stuff, as they say. How did you feel about not having a weapon in these situations? I noticed very quickly that the medics who were not conscious objectors, although they carried a rifle and sometimes a pistol, the first thing they did when they had to work and do their job was throw the pistol and the weapon to the side.

and never saw a medic use a weapon. And so I realized, first of all, it wasn't an issue to the guys that I work with. In fact, they didn't care. All they cared about that, their medic was there for them when the time came. They were very, very protective of me and medics in general. They saw us as their lifeline. I had some real issues with the men only because they were disappointed me that I was snob, that I was the only educated person there. Most of the young men were from either the hills of the south or the neighborhoods in communities from the north that were impoverished. And so I was the only college graduate in the group. And they were not interested in talking about the things I wanted to talk about.

And so I kind of looked with disdain, but they treated me like I was a king. Right. You were Doc. I was Doc. And I was to the world. And only months later, I realized that my not having a weapon mattered because a sergeant that I highly respected. He was talking.

We were at a club and talking and my conscious injector came up with a reporter there and I'm going out of the jungle and I'm going to have a weapon and I'm going to make sure I can protect myself. And Sergeant Shields turns and just says openly at the table to a group of people. He kind of scornful, saying, you're going out with a weapon? Doc, he didn't have a weapon. Now, that's a man who had balls. And I had no idea that he thought so highly of my unwillingness to have a weapon. And that really mattered to me, that it mattered to him.

that I stood, you know, for something. But most of the time, no one except once did someone say, you are a objector for a religious reason. What is that about? But very rarely did one's status as a medical corpsman come up if you were a conscious objective. Well, it's a natural camaraderie among soldiers, right? I mean, that's...

Absolutely. So you didn't feel judged upon by faith or race or anything like that. It was really... No. In fact, we talked about it. And we realized... that we were all in this. And we had to rely on each other, no matter what race we were, whatever our class, our position. Yeah. And that's what war does.

Were you able to adjust that attitude that you had? Yes, I did. Because, number one, I was humbled by their acceptance of me. And eventually, I remember the moment when we were on a boat going down a river, and I realized we could die because this river was just a surrounded by very thick, lush vegetation. And behind that vegetation could be, you know, grenade launches and all kinds of rifles. And I was in a corner thinking, I could die today. I have no control of my life. But what do I have control of? And my control is my service to these men. This is what I can do. If I'm going to die today, I'm going to die helping them. So I got out of the corner and went around asking, how can I help you?

Do you need some water? Do you need some salt tablets? And that's when I realized I was no longer afraid to die. But I also realized that the role that I was given was a role of service to others, no matter who they were, where are they from, what education they had, whatever. Yeah, well, to their credit, that's the basics of military training, isn't it? That's right. And I finally fully embraced that.

And I was very disappointed that out of my pride, that I withheld a full commitment, because I felt as a UCLA graduate, I deserve better and I shouldn't be here in this jungle in a war that no one believed in. No one believed in the war and its intended purpose. Even on the ground there. Even on the ground, because we can see how corrupt the South Vietnamese government was, how many lies the American government was telling about the war, and the number of people that were. being injured and just stories made up out of thin air. So for us, survival was everything. It reinforced that kind of camaraderie. How right do they get it with those movies, with Batoon and the Vietnam movies?

I mean, what was combat like? It all depended on one's experiences. I have a very dear friend, also a conscious objector, Baha'i, who was a medical corps in an area called the Central Highlands. an area where it was a very canopyed vegetation, and he was in a unit where they went out into the jungle for weeks at a time. And so his experience were traumatic in terms of the sniper killings and those kinds of things. Where in the area where I was, which was really defoliated by Napalm and Agent Orange,

I was in a unit, the second 14th infantry was a helicopter infantry company. We were helicoptered in and out on a daily basis. So we did not stay out for extended periods of times. We always got hot meals and showers every day. So our biggest challenge in going out in this area of Koochee, south of Tainan, were booby traps. And those were the injuries that happened the most. And so pitched battles like the ones that often are described in films, I rarely experience. They happened maybe two or three times and being pitched and being dropped in by helicopter

and being shot at when you're getting out of the helicopter. Those things happened. But the films you asked about, for a period of time, I refused to watch. But I came back, there was a period of time. I didn't read about Vietnam. I didn't go to the movies. But as a high school history teacher, I started getting asked questions about it. And that's when I decided I need to know more about my own experience from the perspective

of others. So I started to go to films like Platoon and Apocalypse Now and full metal jacket. And these films, I had mixed reactions. And I'm going to be writing about this because I want to return to exploration of these films from my perspective now. I saw, for example, Apocalypse now as a thin exaggeration of the wartime experience, but full metal jacket and platoon are more closely aligned with my experiences, but they are accelerated. They are such an intense exploration of the wartime experience, in a sense the threat to the psychological wholeness of the individual experiences them, that their lives after the war are deeply impacted. I didn't think my experience is so deeply impacted me that I would identify myself as having PTSD.

But recently, I was diagnosed with having PTSD. And the doctor who diagnosed said, you're successful, you're articulate, you've had a life that hasn't been undone by the experience. But some of the nightmares you have, some of your reactions when you tell the stories of your experiences there, indicate to me you have PTSD. I was shocked. But I accepted it because those lingering reactions to visual experiences, to sounds, I still have nightmares. They're all set in Vietnam. They're all set in the jungle. And so I'm now open about it because people's reaction to the war varied depending on their experiences.

Well, I was raised by a PTSD survivor of World War II. I mean, but he had never even seen combat. He'd just been waiting for combat. It was that kind you anticipate and you're held back and all those effects have different kinds of consequences on the human psyche. Let's talk about a few incidences that you went through. You mentioned a near-death experience in December of 1969 I have in my notes here. Explain what happens to this. This is this critical moment that you referred to earlier where your life was saved.

Yes, it's a moment that changed everything for me. and it's such a moment that still strikes me as mysterious because of what happened. And I've written about it. It was just another day, hot, humid, we're marching for hours and, you know, and then we're taking a pause. And then suddenly there's an explosion with the platoon at the front. And when you hear explosions and suddenly screaming, you know, what's coming next. medic. And so I rushed forward, as medics do, to see what's happened and what I needed to do. And immediately I can see because on the ground in front of me was a man whose legs were gone.

He had stepped on a landmine. And in the process of trying to assist and assess the situation and apply tourniquets and call for the medical evacuation helicopters, I lost my glasses. They just simply fell off and very near-sighted. So I was looking for them very quickly and I noticed them in some brush. And I proceeded to step forward and reach for the glasses and right behind me was a lieutenant. And he was a lieutenant that I had not met before, who was a lieutenant who was just new to the first platoon. But he was there. He yelled, stop from behind me.

That's all he said, stop. And it was one of those commands, like you are trained to respond to orders. And that was one that I responded to immediately. And he pointed his finger. And right next to my right foot was a mind detonator. Wow. And if I had taken another step with my left foot, I had escaped stepping on the detonator.

But if I had taken another step, I would have detonated it. And so I still reached for my glasses. This is all happening while there's helicopter noise. A man screaming next to you who's lost his legs. And suddenly this lieutenant, John Foreman, is behind me, says, stop. I reached for my glasses. I think I turned around and said, thanks. I hope I did.

Once my glasses was on, I continued with helping with the soldiers and all the rest. And it finally was at an end. There were several people who were injured, but they were all medically evacuated. The evacuation system was an amazing system then, calling in these helicopters where triage was the most important. Our jobs as medical corps in the field was just to stop the bleeding and prevent shock. And whatever we could do, whatever was going to be done was going to be done on the helicopters in the hospital. So the next day, we received word that some of the people had passed away. But I got awakened by a sergeant and said, you need to get up.

A general is coming to give you a medal. I said, for what? He said, because you were running around in a minefield, helping the wounded. And they're going to give you a bronze star for valor under fire. I said, I just did my job. He said, no, you did more than that. I didn't see myself as being courageous. I didn't see myself as being this gung-ho, heroic medic.

I was doing what needed to be done. but they gave me a medal. And I keep it in my office as a reminder of my service. It's a broad star with a V. Listeners should know I have you on video on a Zoom, and I can see you holding up that bronze star in your hand right there. Wow. I've always wondered, Sidney, do those medals matter in the long run of life?

Yes, they do. I wish I could say that this was the original medal that I received, But my home was burglarized many years ago. And the burglar took our TV, a microwave, and my medal. And so I had the right to the government for a replacement. And they replaced it with this. It's not the original, but it still matters. I tell you, it's not as a symbol of my service.

It is a symbol of that moment. And I did something for others. And as part of that process, John Foreman saved my life. And two weeks later, he was dead. How did that happen? It's a story that still gives me a great deal of anguish because we had a captain who told me personally, his name was William Branch.

He said that he felt that his job was to keep his men alive. And essentially, he was successful. Our company was becoming very well known for not having a lot of injuries. But in December, we got a new officer, a new captain. Because everyone is rotated after a period of time. And I was rotated eventually as well. But he was rotated out and we got another man.

He was obnoxious. He was arrogant. He was contentious of conscience objectors. And he came up with an idea that we were going to go on a mission at night with the full panoply of all the guns. and weapons that we had at our disposal. Immediately, I thought this is a big mistake because he was basically going to go out

and announce to the Viet Cong where we are with our weapons. What he did was he went out with the company and this is what's distressing about me because they only needed four medics. And I was a senior medic at the time and I decided I wasn't going to go. I just felt this is a disaster in the making.

So they went out, and what happened was he did a show display of all the firepower that he had. In the night, that's what was the plan. We're going to show them how much power we have. Well, the Viet Cong decides to send sappers, sneak attack soldiers, grenade-throwing soldiers. And so the first platoon with Lieutenant Foreman dived into a bomb crater and the Viet Cong snipers and killers threw grenades into that hole

and 14 people died, including Lieutenant Foreman. And I learned this when I got the call medic wounded, we need you to come. So they blew me out in the middle of the night in a helicopter. to fall by myself. This was the biggest loss for this company. Oh, the biggest loss for this company.

And red flares were lighted up. It was an scene of just utter devastation. So I had to do my job of organizing the dead and getting everyone. It was heartbreaking. And I felt very guilty because I wasn't there when it happened. And I was called in. I broke down. I felt anguish that this had happened to so many people.

And one man in particular, his name was Whitey, because he was very fair and pale. He said, I think we're going to die out there. And it turned out he was one of those who died. So after that event, the captain clearly this man was in trouble because of what he had done. Oh, he lived. He lived. But this is what sounds interesting. I don't know what happened, but the rumor was that he might be the victim of Brendan.

fire. And the only reason why I know that the army took it seriously is because he was transferred two days later, just disappeared as if he never was. Did you ever run into this person in life later on? No. I sometimes want to find out. And other times I'm so angry and I just said no. And then what was really, really tragic for me in the sense not only the death, but the 14. And also that the captain, the captain that we had who was so beloved, who did not do anything like this, he died from shot down from a helicopter his last day in Vietnam. He had been rotated to the rear and William Branch was shot down on a reconnaissance helicopter mission. And he died. So many of those kinds of stories.

I want to ask you something you mentioned just a little while ago about what does it feel like to not be afraid of death? Because that seems to me a central experience to war that someone like me cannot possibly grasp. I think for me, if there's a belief in the immortality of the spirit, that also may contribute to it, But there's also a recognition that death is a moment and also recognizing that in many circumstances, especially in war, you have no control over it. It's going to happen. We're all going to die. In war or not war. So we come to terms with what is the quality of the life that we're going to live in the moment that we have.

Right. And in this case, you have service that you're doing. If you are giving of yourself as a servant, if you are willing to see that your life has value because of what you did during that span of which you have no control, then you can live with the eminence of death. Not that you wanted or that you will not regret. But that replaces the fear factor. That replaces the animal response of like bolt and run kind of thing. That's right. I am not someone who has a high tolerance for pain or do these kind of sports where you push yourself into, you know, agonies.

I do not believe in the value of suffering in the sense that you go through physical anguish and you deliberately and consciously. For me, it's more of the anguish of suffering over time that I most fear, not the end of my physical life. And I saw people who were committed to service and what were the other and defined the quality of their lives by the quality of their relationships with other people. That's why camaraderie among soldiers is such a powerful incentive to not fear death. So that kind of replaces that fear. That sense of duty to your fellow soldier is the replacement of that. But Don, it doesn't replace the desire to get home and be there with that. loved ones. And so the hunger to return to quote, unquote, what we call the world was very intense,

which was why we wrote letters all the time, why we hope that letters would arrive, so that we would stay connected. That again, it was connection that defined the quality of our lives. I want to finish with a story about Lieutenant Foreman. You saw it out. You mentioned, was it the Vietnam Memorial that you're talking about? Yes. I stood there with my wife and two of my three children. I found his name and I realized that I had a family because he did what he did on that afternoon. And so I was profoundly grateful that he, who was a complete stranger, I never talked to him. I never even went up to him. There was two weeks between the moment and his death. I never went to him and say, thank you. Who are you? Why did you happen to be there? None of that. And so at his

a memorial, I vowed that I would remember his name. And then I also vowed that I've ever got to the Washington Memorial, I would find his name, and I did. But something happened that I talked about in my interview with StoryCorps is that when I became a high school principal, one of my new assistant principals asked me about Vietnam. And I told him some stories, and then I told him the story about Lieutenant Foreman. And then about three months later, he calls me into his office, and he has a notebook.

When I first opened it up, the notebook has a picture of Lieutenant Foreman. This is a face I had not seen since December of 1969. This was in 2001. And I started to cry. It was just like, I said, what have you done?

He said, when you said, did you wish you had the opportunity to express gratitude to his family for how he impacted your life, I went on a search for the family. And I went on a search for finding out for information about John Foreman. Wow. Here it all is. And I just was incredibly moved by this act that was completely selfless.

And he gave me information that I didn't know. But one of the things that was most important, he found a sister. Parents had passed away, never knowing what had happened to their son. But he had a sister who found out about me through this friend, and she asked for me to call. She was a teacher in Texas, and we talked about her brother, and how he died and what he did for me.

And she was very grateful. And as a result, she sent me some things, a picture of him, his cross, his business card. They're now in a shadow box on my wall. And so I decided, Don, that because of his instrumental part of my being such an instrumental part of my life, that if I wrote anything that was going to be published like a book, I would dedicate each one to him. And that's what you'll see. So if you open the book, my first book dedicated to him, which is where I say because he saved my life in Vietnam.

The second book, I don't say, but I say in memory of John W. Foreman. Sydney, when you hear you've lived a good life, you've been an educator, you've been a writer, you are a writer. Looking back now and you hear so much criticism of Vietnam, we've been doing these programs about the war, how does it make you feel as someone who served there, the historic takeaway of this really agonizing period for this country? Well, I can tell you that I did not get thank you for your service when you wore your uniform. I had the experience which may, I think, will be talked for another time because I was suddenly extracted from Vietnam because of an injury to my right hand. Because of the rotation, I got another office job typing reports, working for the doctors at the dispensary. And suddenly

one day I went over to my quarters to get a cold drink and I forced a block of ice into a glass, the glass shattered, and I cut my pinky finger. And next thing I knew, I was being told you severed the tendon in your finger, and the army has a rule. Any tendon that severed must be treated by immediate evacuation out of the country. And I was extracted that day from my support base in Kuchy and sent to Japan. I never saw my company, my friends, ever again. Not ever again.

There was a reunion, but I never saw them after that for years. My letters, everything were gone. I had to be sent both first to Japan and then to the States where I had this surgery. So because the surgery, I was still ambulatory, I was able to work at the Presidio Hospital in San Francisco. And so I wore my uniform into the city and learned very quickly. This is not what you should be wearing. in answer to your question, because I became very much aware of the reality of the war, especially the lying, when I arrived in San Francisco, President Nixon was on the television

talking about the future invasion of Cambodia. He was explaining why the Cambodian invasion needed to take place. And I knew that was a lot because our company had been ordered into Cambodia. That was happening just when I got extracted, that we were preparing for the invasion. And so when he was on television saying it was going to happen, I said, oh, my God, he's lying. It already happened. Right. It already happened.

The body count system was a complete fabrication. We were sent in to help companies that had been attacked. And even before we even moved into the areas, Radio Saigon was already announcing the number of people who had gotten found and killed. And they were just numbers made up out of thin air. That is so interesting. I remember as a child watching those body count reports on the nightly news. And I remember thinking, how come it's always more enemies than, it was always like a score. And then we went in, Don, found nothing, nothing.

And they were still saying hundreds of enemy dead. So here we were convinced not only that we as a company were, of being exploited or lives. So by the time I got back to America, I was anti-war because what not only did to soldiers, but what it did to the country, et cetera, so I joined the anti-war movement as a protester when I went to UCLA to get my teaching credential. I understood the opposition. I understood the failure of the Johnson administration's accelerating the war. And so I've been very passionate against war escalations and the cabillions of civilians. And so I've not felt as a veteran opposed to those who are against military action. I understand because war dehumanizes everyone.

I have another experience which we don't have time to talk about today when we as soldiers realized that we were killing other human beings, that they were young men like us. And they had the same hope and dreams. They had the same symbols and pictures on their bodies as we had. And most of the time, they were shadows in their night. Until one night, they were no longer shadows. It dehumanizes everybody. And war is possible because we make those who are out to kill us inhuman. We call them by names, ethnic slurs, all the rest. And so seeing what war does, that's why the eye idea of war itself as an instrument of policy is problematic for me. I am not against war to save the peace, to protect ourselves, but the idea that as an individual, I'm going to go out

and kill somebody. And the people who had to do it, they talked to me because usually the medic was also the in-house therapist. They were sick of killing. They were tired of it. They just wanted to go home. It does something to people. And even if you feel that you're part of a noble cause, it still has impact, which is why there's so many veterans who are suffering now, especially not only Vietnam, but post-Afghanistan and Iraq. War should not be something that is common. War should be a desperate last resort, and it should be a resort for a cause that's worthy. The takeaway from so many wars, you know, in my reflections, talking about them so much in this podcast series especially, is that it glorifies the cause. But in the process, it oversimplifies those causes as well.

And unfortunately, even in your case, the painful experiences that come out of it and they are lived with over time. Fortunately, in our time, we have more information about this and we understand the more subtle aspects of it, which I imagine is the reasons why there aren't more wars. that America, you know, leaps towards. But they're still to come. That's the sad point about it. My father used to say, every 25 years, Don, there's going to be a war. Get ready. Yeah.

And so with these images of what's happening in Gaza, the children, and that was so hard to not only see the death of children, but also to see children as a potential threat to your own life because they were used by there being calm to blow up soldiers. Oh, my gosh. We could go on and on, Cindy. I have so many questions and you were right there in the midst of it. It's incredible. Thank you so much for your service, of course, but also for letting us into this incredibly difficult experience that you've had to live with all your life.

Well, thank you for asking me about it because I think my goal is to be a witness. But I hasten to say a very successful life lived as well. And do you think I have to ask you? Do you think you would have been an educator in your life otherwise? Was that what you came home to do? Don, I decided to be a teacher of a teacher. history in third grade. Oh, okay. You were already into it.

Mrs. Fisher just enjoying talking about geography and history, and I loved history and geography even then, and I said, I can get paid for doing, talking about what I love. So I'm a consistent in educator and a storyteller from very early on. All right. For a last chance, we've talked to you more times than most guests, but I welcome the chance to plug your book one more time. Frederick Douglass, a novel written by this fine man, Sidney Morrison. Thank you so much, Sydney.

We'll talk to you again in the future. Well, thank you. Thank you for asking me. It was a real pleasure, Don. Hello, folks. Thanks for listening to American History Hit. Each week, we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays.

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