American History Tellers - The Manhattan Project | 'Oppenheimer' with Kai Bird | 4

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

Following the success of the Manhattan Project, the U.S. sought to develop a potentially more powerful and deadly weapon – the Hydrogen Bomb. Despite having led the team at Los Alamos, J. Robert Oppenheimer became an outspoken opponent of the H-Bomb. His stance made him enemies who sought to undermine his influence, and soon his security clearance came into question. Today Lindsay is joined by Pulitzer prize-winning biographer, Kai Bird, to examine Oppenheimer’s life, and eventual fall from grace. His book, American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer, was the basis for Christopher Nolan’s film, Oppenheimer.Listen to American History Tellers on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season. Unlock exclusive early access by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today by visiting https://wondery.com/links/american-history-tellers/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge new seasons of American History Tellers early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Imagine it's May 1952 and you're an FBI agent. Normally, you work in Albuquerque, New Mexico. But today, you're paying a visit to a place where, just seven years ago, history was made. The Los Alamos National Laboratory. You're sitting in a meeting room and across the table from you is a scientist named Edward Teller. The FBI has been fielding troubling reports about one of Dr. Teller's colleagues,

and hopefully today you can get to the bottom of what's happening. So, Dr. Teller, am I right that you helped design the atomic bombs that were dropped on Japan in 1945? That's correct. And you're at work now on a hydrogen bomb that could be even more powerful. I don't think it could be. I think it will be. It's a powerful new weapon that will fortify the security of our nation and protect us from the Soviets. It's a crime that we've

been prevented from advancing its development. Oh, what's been the primary obstacle? Teller removes his glasses and places them on the table. I think we both know it's Oppenheimer. You nod as you scribble notes on a pad of paper. J. Robert Oppenheimer was the leader of the team of scientists at Los Alamos that made the atomic bomb a reality. And in recent years, he served as a key advisor to the Atomic Energy Commission, which governs the nation's atomic energy and weapons efforts. Oppenheimer's photo has graced the covers of national magazines, with headlines hailing him as the father of the atomic bomb. But you need to

determine what could be motivating this hero to interfere with a matter of national security. Well, I'd like to know more about that, Dr. Teller. How has Dr. Oppenheimer been a hindrance? Oppenheimer has fought the super for seven years now. At first, it was on moral grounds. Then he claimed it wasn't feasible. Then he changed his story to say we don't have the right resources and personnel. I disagree with all of these assertions. Does he actually have the power to decide whether it moves forward? No, but Oppenheimer is a celebrity. He has a direct line to the president. He may not be able to make the decision, but he has a strong influence on those who can. Well, Dr. Teller, why do you believe he's doing this? Teller folds his arms and stares down at the

table. It's clear he's choosing his words carefully. There are many who believe that he's opposing the hydrogen bomb because Moscow is ordering him to. You struggle to hide your shock. Teller has just leveled a devastating accusation against a powerful colleague. Is that what you believe? I understand why some people believe it. Many in his close circle of confidence have ties to communism, including his brother, his wife. But do I think it's possible he could be disloyal to the United States? Probably not. Then what do you think is driving him? Many things. I believe he carries great shock and guilt from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I also believe he

has an ego. Oppenheimer was a strong leader for the Manhattan Project, but if I am being honest, he's not a very accomplished scientist. Perhaps he's afraid of his achievement being overshadowed by a new breakthrough. You shake your head as you try to process all the information Teller is giving you. Well, thank you for your candor, Dr. Teller. Is there anything else you wish to share? Yes. I want to be clear. J. Robert Oppenheimer should not be influencing policy that is so critical to the security of the nation. If there is anything I can do to separate him from his advisory role, I hope you'll let me know. You nod as you write your final notes. It's still unclear to you what's actually motivating Oppenheimer. But if more people step forward to call his character into question,

one thing will be clear. Oppenheimer's days as a national hero will be numbered. I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the hosts of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Kill List is a true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those who lives were in danger. Follow Kill List wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Kill List and more Exhibit C true crime shows like Morbid early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. From Wondery, I'm Lindsey Graham, and this is American History Tellers. Our history, your story. In May of 1952, an FBI agent met with scientist Edward Teller to discuss J. Robert Oppenheimer's opposition to a powerful new weapon. Teller and many national security officials agreed that the hydrogen bomb was a necessary step in the United States nuclear weapons program, but Oppenheimer had repeatedly advised against it. In his meeting with the FBI, Teller offered information that would be used to cast doubt on Oppenheimer's motivations, as well as his loyalty to the country. Today, I'm joined by Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer Kai Bird to discuss the life of J.

Robert Oppenheimer and the controversy that followed him after leading the effort to develop the world's first nuclear weapon. Kai Bird, welcome to American History Tellers. Well, thank you, Lindsay, for having me. It's a real pleasure. So Christopher Nolan's recent film, Oppenheimer, has put the so-called father of the atomic bomb back into the public consciousness. This film is based on the biography of Oppenheimer, American Prometheuscalled father of the atomic bomb back into the public consciousness. This film is based on the biography of Oppenheimer, American Prometheus, which you co-authored. And the movie starts when Oppenheimer is a college student in his 20s. And I was wondering,

what do you think it would be like to meet such a luminary figure, be in class with a young Robert Oppenheimer? Well, he was, you know, a brilliant student. It'd be a little intimidating. And in fact, he was in real life, in actuality, he was often rather intimidating to his classmates. He could be very talkative. He could be sort of a smart aleck. I recall at one point he'd said, ask me a question in Latin and I'll answer you in Greek.

So he was a little bit obnoxious and socially awkward, particularly around women. Yet he was always extremely curious about the physical world. He was very good in chemistry in high school. That's what he majored in at Harvard. But he also had an intense interest in the human condition, in philosophy. He loved the novels of Ernest Hemingway. He loved the poetry of T.S. Eliot. He wrote poetry himself. You know, he was a polymath, a Renaissance man who had a wide range of interests. He wasn't just a scientific nerd. And I would argue that he was a good scientist, a brilliant scientist, precisely because he had these other interests

and he could ask questions that led to deeper scientific insights. But of course, reading Hemingway and Eliot doesn't necessarily make you a good physicist. Was he good at math? Math was not particularly his forte. He had to sometimes have his math checked. You know, his math was, I'm certain, better than mine or yours. But for a physicist, it was not his forte. But he was good at theoretical physics, and he understood the music of quantum physics in a way that was unique.

You know, he was able to ask the kind of questions that no one else would ask, questions that would lead to discoveries. Like, for instance, simply using theoretical tools he has as a quantum physicist, he was able to write a very short paper in 1939 that posited that black holes must exist. It was an extraordinary discovery. So, as you wrote the book, you probably began to feel that you eventually got to know Oppenheimer. Did you go along with him as he grew up out of his 20s and into his position at Los Alamos? Well, I think I know him as well as anyone can, but, you know, it's hard to fully know. You can never fully know another human being's life. We're too complicated. But along the way, of course,

you get to know your subject in a very intimate way. You start dreaming about them, you're reading their letters, you're listening to their voice, if there are recordings of the voices, and you're interviewing people who knew your subject in some intimate way. Oppenheimer was himself a particularly elusive subject. And while we got to know him, there's still mysteries about him. He's endlessly fascinating. The film version puts a great focus on what happened after Oppenheimer's time at Los Alamos and the consequences of Oppenheimer's left-leaning associations. In the 1930s, he worked as a professor in UC Berkeley's physics department, and there were a lot of left-leaning intellectuals at the time, many of which were drawn to associate

with the U.S. Communist Party or even join. Can you tell us a bit about why the United States Communist Party was a viable political organization to join and why many on perhaps college campuses were drawn to it. Oh, sure. You know, in the 1930s, in the midst of the Great Depression, capitalism seemed to not be working, particularly not working for the working man. And the Communist Party, which was a minuscule political party, was nevertheless on the cutting edge of progressive politics in America in the 1930s, supporting trade union activities, also professors, were attracted to the Communist Party program.

And thus, it was no surprise that young Robert Oppenheimer, in his late 20s and 30s, might also have been attracted to some of the ideas propagated by the Communist Party. But he was attracted to it not out of any sympathy for the Soviet Union as such. He was attracted to what the party was saying about domestic issues, the plight of the working man in the midst of the Depression. And initially, actually, you know, when he was at Berkeley in the early 1930s, he was rather apolitical. It was a woman, Jean Tatlock, who he met and fell in love with, who was studying at Berkeley as well to become a medical doctor, a psychiatrist, and was a member of the Communist Party. And when they met, she began sort of pushing Oppenheimer, nagging him to be more politically aware. And so, Oppenheimer did, in fact, begin to contribute money as much as $400 a year to various activities and causes of the Communist Party, like the campaign to desegregate the public swimming pool in Berkeley, or raising money to send an ambulance to the Spanish Republic in the midst of the

Spanish Civil War in 1937 or 38. But we argue in the book that while it was clear that Robert Oppenheimer at Berkeley was pinkish, he was not red, meaning he was sympathetic to the Communist Party, but he never actually joined the party. He never submitted himself to party discipline. And, of course, all of these political activities that he engaged in in the 1930s would come back to haunt him in 1954 when he was essentially put on trial in a kangaroo court and stripped of his security clearance. Well, also in the 1930s, 1938, it was discovered that nuclear fission was possible, and immediately scientists across the world apprehended a bomb was therefore

possible too. The British and the Americans scrambled to assemble a team to create this device before Germany. And while it may make sense that General Leslie Groves, the officer in the Army Corps of Engineers who was responsible for the Pentagon, for instance, why he was selected to lead this project, why do you think Groves chose Oppenheimer, a young academic with very little leadership experience? Yes, it was a curious decision. Oppenheimer was only 38 years old, and in 1941-42, when he was selected to become scientific director of the secret city in Los Alamos. And he had had no administrative experience other than managing, you know, a half dozen PhD students at Berkeley. But when Groves first met Oppenheimer, he realized that this was a brilliant scientist,

but not only a scientist, he was someone who could speak in plain English. And this was very attractive to Groves. Groves also, I think, understood that this was a terribly ambitious and driven young man. And he could see that Oppenheimer was highly motivated to contribute something to the war effort, and that he had understood immediately when fission was discovered that you could probably make a pretty big bomb. And Oppenheimer feared that the German scientists, physicists, were going to give Adolf Hitler this terrible weapon with which he would use to triumph, and that fascism would triumph in World War II. But I think also the final thing that really persuaded Groves was that in their first meeting,

and this is depicted in Christopher Nolan's film Oppenheimer, Oppenheimer made the case, he said, you know, if you want to build this weapon and do it quickly, you need to bring the scientists you need together in one place and put them behind barbed wire in a secret city and allow them to collaborate. And I understand you have a concern about security. You don't want information to be leaking. And I have the perfect place in mind, Los Alamos, at the old Los Alamos Boys School, which sat in the middle of the high plains of the New Mexico desert. And it just happened to be 40 miles down the road from Oppenheimer's own ranch up at 9,000 feet, which he loved and spent many summers at. And he had, at one point in the 1930s, he had turned to his younger brother, Frank, and Oppenheimer said, you know, if I could find some way to combine my passion for physics with my passion for New Mexico, I would be a happy man. The Soviets in World War II were our allies, but the U.S. tried to keep the Manhattan Project secret

nonetheless. But as our series showed, the Russians did, of course, have spies inside the Manhattan Project, namely the German scientist who came through the British contingent, Klaus Fuchs. Could you describe the Soviet efforts inside Los Alamos to get this information? Yes. It was, in a way not surprising that the Russians would be curious about what was going on. And Klaus Fuchs was indeed a brilliant scientist and sort of because of his politics,

he believed it was wrong not to share this scientific information about the bomb project with our Russian allies. But Klaus Fuchs was not the only, or even some would argue the most consequential scientist who passed information on to the Russians about the bomb project. There was also the young Ted Hall, who was only 19 years old, a Harvard student who was recruited to come to Los Alamos. And Ted Hall actually provided probably more detailed and consequential scientific technical information about the implosion techniques that were essential to designing

and producing a working plutonium bomb. Anyway, there were more than two spies as such at Los Alamos. And in a sense, it was no surprise that the Russians found out about the atomic bomb project long before the bomb was used on Japan. Well, you say it's no surprise, and that may be the benefit of hindsight. But at the time, they sure tried not to let the Soviets in on the secret. Can you give us an example of the lengths that the U.S. went to to keep security tight? Oh, yeah. You know, they didn't require these scientists to don an army uniform, but they gave them security clearances and asked them to sign oaths that they would not talk about what they were doing. They required them to live

in Los Alamos. You know, it grew to become a small town of almost 6,000 people. But everyone lived behind barbed wire. There was firm security, one gate in and out. Oppenheimer himself was under close scrutiny. His driver was an Army counterintelligence officer who reported back to Army counterintelligence everything that he heard Oppenheimer say in the car. At times during Los Alamos, he was wiretapped. There was an extraordinary effort to keep atomic secrets secret. I'm Tristan Redman, and as a journalist, I've never believed in ghosts. But when I discovered that my wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door to where I grew up,

I started wondering about the inexplicable things that happened in my childhood bedroom. When I tried to find out more, I discovered that someone who slept in my room after me, someone I'd never met, was visited by the ghost of a faceless woman. So I started digging into the murder in my wife's family, and I unearthed family secrets nobody could have imagined. Ghost Story won Best Documentary Podcast at the 2024 Ambies and is a Best True Crime nominee at the British Podcast Awards 2024. Ghost Story is now the first ever Apple Podcast series essential. Each month, Apple Podcast editors spotlight one series that has captivated listeners

with masterful storytelling, creative excellence, and a unique creative voice and vision. To recognise Ghost Story being chosen as the first series essential, Wondery has made it ad-free for a limited time only on Apple Podcasts. If you haven't listened yet, head over to Apple Podcasts to hear for yourself. In a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her. And she wasn't the only target. Because buried in the depths of the internet is The Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses, and specific instructions for people's murders.

This podcast is the true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those whose lives were in danger. And it turns out, convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more Exhibit C true crime shows like Morbid early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+. Check out Exhibit C in the Wondery app for all your true crime listening. now director and writer christopher nolan approach you to discuss making the film oppenheimer out of your book american prometheus this is a an extraordinary opportunity christopher nolan

is a well-regarded director and the film was spectacular you have achieved what many many authors probably want or at least dream about seeing your work on the silver screen. How did this project happen? Well, it was a miracle. And yes, as a biographer, I'm very lucky that Nolan acquired an interest in the book. There were many efforts, actually, to turn this book into a movie. They all failed. You know, the book came out a long time ago in 2005. And finally,

the fellow who had the film option, a man named Dave Wargo, who actually has a background in physics from MIT, and he was determined to see this book turned into a film. And actually, in the midst of the pandemic, in early 21, Dave Wargo got on a private plane and flew out to Hollywood and managed to get the book American Prometheus into the hands of one of Christopher Nolan's longtime producers. And Christopher Nolan quickly fell in love with the book. He read it once and then sat down and read it twice, taking notes. And he decided he wanted to see if he could write a screenplay that did justice to this complicated book. And so he spent the next four months alone writing a script. And only in September of 21 did he contact me and he invited me to come up to New York to meet him. And in February of 22, just before Nolan started to film,

he asked for another meeting, and this time he shared with me the screenplay. It's a very long screenplay. It took me about four hours to sit down and read it in a hotel room in New York. And then he went and shot the film in, I think, a production of only some 60 days. Now, as someone with my own IP I would love to see adapted, I am envious that you were on man in print, suddenly watching an actor playing

Oppenheimer and meeting him and then seeing him on the screen? Well, it was a fun experience. And that day at Los Alamos, I was on the film set and I saw Cillian Murphy and other actors play a two and a half minute scene. And I had a chance to meet him in between one of the takes. And as he approached me wearing this baggy brown 40s-style suit and silver New Mexico belt buckle and funny wide 1940s-style tie, I shouted out to him, Dr. Oppenheimer, Dr. Oppenheimer, such a pleasure to meet you after all these years.

And Killian laughed. And then we had a chance to chat for about five minutes. I complimented him, by the way, on his voice. I said, you know, I think you've captured Oppenheimer's voice, which is very distinctive, a sort of transatlantic accent, not British, but very clearly articulated, very soft-spoken, a magnetic voice in many ways. Well, we have an opportunity now to listen to the similarities or maybe how well Killian did capture the spirit of Oppenheimer. We're going to play two clips, the real Oppenheimer and then Killian, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds. And now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds. So it's obvious to hear that these are two different people, but perhaps you are correct. The spirit, at least in this very iconic sentence, is there. Yeah, he really captures almost the whispering quality to Oppenheimer's voice. You know, he captures the spirit of Oppenheimer, his elusiveness, the mystery around him, the sort of existential angst that Oppenheimer always carried about with

him. Now, let's talk just a moment about this sentence in particular. It is an infamous one. Where does it come from? Oh, the I am become deaf quote is straight out of the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita. Oppenheimer as a young man at Berkeley decided to teach himself and get tutored in Sanskrit so that he could read the Gita in the original. At the Trinity site, when he successfully tested the first atomic bomb, by all accounts, by the account of his brother Frank, Oppenheimer just turned to Frank and said, well, it worked.

But a few days later, when Oppenheimer was sat down for a formal interview by a New York Times reporter who had been assigned to be on hand to record this momentous event, Oppenheimer had a, you know, a flair for the dramatic. He knew how to act. And he recalled this line from the Gita. You know, it's sort of an apt piece of scripture, but I don't think he actually said this at the time of the Trinity test. Well, speaking of the Trinity test, the film Oppenheimer captures the complicated tension

of scientists feeling the exhilaration that their work was successful, but then the dawning realization of the horror the bomb might cause when it will eventually be dropped over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. From your research, how did Oppenheimer deal with that? How did his mood change after the bombs were dropped on Japan or even before when he realized it was inevitable? Yeah, you know, Oppenheimer was terribly eager to see the fruit of all this two and a half years of scientific effort to be successful. He wanted to see if it could be made to work. He was also concerned and fearful that maybe the German scientists would beat him in this race to create this weapon and give it to Hitler and the war would be lost to fascism. But by the spring of 1945, the Germans

were defeated. So, there was some question about why everyone at Los Alamos was working so hard to build this thing. And there was actually a meeting in Los Alamos late that spring to discuss the gadget, as they called it, and the future of civilization. And young physicists like Robert Wilson questioned why we were working so hard to build this thing if the war was essentially over. And no one believed that the Japanese had a bomb project. So Oppenheimer stepped forward and reminded everyone present that on the last day of 1943, when Niels Bohr, the sort of grandfather of quantum physicists, had arrived in Los Alamos, having escaped from Denmark, Niels Bohr had only one question for Oppenheimer. He said, Robert, is it going to be big enough? Is it going to be big

enough to end all war? So, you know, this is an intriguing argument Oppenheimer made that the world has to understand the enormity of what is being invented, this weapon of mass destruction, and they won't understand unless it's used in a dramatic fashion in this war. And if this war ends without the use of the atomic bomb, it's quite possible, even likely, that the next war would be fought by two or three or four adversaries, each of whom would be armed with nuclear weapons. And that would be a terrible, terrible war. Armageddon. And so, this is an intriguing argument, and Oppenheimer made it and persuaded his scientists to continue working on the gadget. But, you know, after Trinity, after the successful test of the first atomic bomb,

I have a scene in the book where Oppenheimer in July, late July, is walking to work one day with his secretary at the time, Ann Wilson. And I interviewed Ann Wilson, and she told me she was struck. Suddenly Oppenheimer was walking beside her muttering to himself, those poor little people, those poor little people. And she stopped him and said, Robert, what are you talking about? And he said, and now it's going to be used on a whole Japanese city because there's no military target large enough for such a weapon. And the victims are going to be women and children and old men, not many soldiers. You know, so he was painfully aware of the tragic human consequences. same week, chronologically speaking, that we know that Oppenheimer was in Los Alamos briefing the bombardiers that were going to be on the Enola Gay that would drop the first atomic bomb.

And he was instructing them at exactly what altitude to release this weapon and at what altitude it should be ignited to have the most maximum destructive power. And yet he was also worrying at the same time about the human consequences and the victims. We know from his wife Kitty's letters right in August of 45, right after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, she writes to a friend saying that Robert has plunged into a deep depression and I don't know if he'll come out of it. She feared for his life, feared that he might take his own life. But he recovered from it and then spent essentially the next nine years trying to warn the American people and American politicians about the dangers of relying on these weapons. And he tried to make the argument for international control

and banning these weapons. But he failed. And instead, nine years later, he was tried and stripped of his security clearance and publicly humiliated. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reached the age of 10 that would still have heard it. It just

happens to all of us. I'm journalist Luke Jones and for almost two years I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn trials I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction.

Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. In November 1991, media tycoon Robert Maxwell mysteriously vanished from his luxury yacht in the Canary Islands. But it wasn't just his body that would come to the surface in the days that followed. It soon emerged that Robert's business was on the brink of collapse, and behind his facade of wealth and success was a litany of bad investments, mounting debt, and multi-million dollar fraud. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show Business Movers. We tell the true stories of business leaders who risked it all, the critical moments that define their journey, and the ideas that transform the way we live our lives. In our latest series, a young refugee fleeing the Nazis

arrives in Britain determined to make something of his life. Taking the name Robert Maxwell, he builds a publishing and newspaper empire that spans the globe. But ambition eventually curdles into desperation, and Robert's determination to succeed turns into a willingness to do anything to get ahead. Follow Business Movers wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Moving forward in time after World War II, almost nine years in 1954, which is only two years after the Americans demonstrated the hydrogen bond. During a McCarthy-era anti-communist hysteria moment, the Atomic Energy Commission held a meeting, and you've described it as a kangaroo court, that revoked Robert Oppenheimer's security clearance, humiliated him, and then shut him out of government work. This was also a big focus of the film.

What's your assessment of what happened. Well, you know, when Marty and I were working together writing the book, at one point Marty turned to me and he said, you know, the two of us would not be working so hard on this story for so many years if it was just a story about the father of the atomic bomb, if it was just the story about the making of this weapon. What really makes the story have an arc is that there was a triumph in 1945. Oppenheimer successfully built this weapon. And then there was a tragedy nine years later, and he was brought down. clearance made to testify about his private life, his love affairs in front of his own wife, Kitty. And then the entire transcript of the so-called secret hearing was then leaked to the New York Times. And, you know, this once public intellectual, a man who was once America's most famous scientist, aside from Albert Einstein, who was actually also Albert Einstein's boss as such at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, this public intellectual was suddenly

a pariah, disinvited from university speeches, no longer allowed to give advice to the president or walk the halls of the Pentagon. It was a terrible story, and Oppenheimer was deeply wounded by what had happened to him. And the story resonates for us to this day because Oppenheimer essentially became the chief celebrity victim of the whole McCarthy era, the witch hunts of the early 50s, led by Senator Joe McCarthy. And that story resonates. It explains our deeply divisive politics today. It explains the peculiar status of scientists as public intellectuals in America today, where they're encouraged and warned not to get out of their narrow lane, not to get involved in politics.

So it's a very powerful and relevant story to our own times. Well, it was powerful and relevant to you and Marty Sherwin, your co-author, too. I was startled to learn that you and Marty went on a bit of a crusade to rehabilitate Oppenheimer's reputation. Describe that for us. American Prometheus, the triumph and tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer came out in 2005. You know, it was well-reviewed and sold moderately in bookstores. But Marty and I were still outraged at what we had learned had happened to Oppenheimer during the course of the 1954 security hearing. And one day, Marty sat down and wrote a long memo

trying to summarize all the ways in which the Atomic Energy Commission had violated their own procedures for conducting such a security hearing. Things like having wiretapped Oppenheimer's lawyer's office, the fact that during the course of the entire hearing, his own lawyer was denied access to the 8,000 pages of FBI transcripts, while the so-called judges in the security hearing had access to that material. Oppenheimer's own lawyer was denied access to them. And so, Marty wrote this memo, and we tried for literally more than a decade to persuade the president, in the first instance, President Obama, and then the Secretary of Energy. And finally, we persuaded a veteran Senate aide to Senator urging the Secretary of Energy to nullify, to formally nullify the 1954 verdict.

And we thought this was important to sort of set the record straight historically. Fortunately, in December of 22, the Secretary of Energy, Jennifer Granholm, issued an executive order nullifying the 1954 verdict. But Oppenheimer didn't live to witness that. How did he spend the rest of his years after being stripped of his security clearance? Yeah, Christopher Nolan's film, Oppenheimer, does not tell what happens to Oppenheimer after the security hearing. You know, it's a long three-hour film. It can't cover everything. What did happen to Oppenheimer was that he retreated. He retreated from public life.

He kept his job at Princeton, but only by a thread. He was almost fired there. But that summer of 1954, he retreated to the Caribbean, took his family to get him out of the spotlight of all the controversy. And they went on a sailing trip around the U.S. Virgin Islands. And Oppenheimer discovered the little island of St. John and fell in love with it and bought a small plot right on the beach and built a very Spartan cabin. And for the rest of his life, he spent three, four months of the year in St. John, just walking the beaches as a beach bum, smoking his pipe and sipping his martinis and hanging out with Kitty and going sailing. You know, he spent the last few years

of his life as a wounded intellectual. But nonetheless, he was still engaged in the scientific community and well-regarded. I thought it was interesting in your book that you detailed a trip that he took to Japan in 1960. What happened then? He had been invited to a scientific conference in Tokyo. He never visited Hiroshima or Nagasaki. But of course, when he landed at Tokyo, he was met by a bevy of Japanese reporters, you know, who asked him questions about what he was feeling. Did he have any regrets about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And Oppenheimer gave one of his

typically elusive answers in which he said, well, all I can say is that I haven't slept worse or better last night than I did the night before. He was signaling that he had no regrets. He never apologized for what happened. As a scientist, I think he understood that you cannot stop science. You cannot stop human beings from figuring out the physical world around them. And therefore, you know, the discovery of fission and the discovery that you could make such a bomb was going to happen. So, he wasn't going to apologize for that. On the other hand, we do know that he was deeply troubled for the rest of his life. What do you think Oppenheimer's

story and the story of the Manhattan Project in general, how is it relevant to new generations who are just now learning this history for the first time? Well, I think both the book, American Prometheus, and the film Oppenheimer are very relevant today. It's astonishing to me, actually. I'm sort of pleasantly surprised that teenagers and college students are flocking to Oppenheimer, to Christopher Nolan's film. They're absorbing this really complicated history. I think not many of them knowing who exactly Oppenheimer was, other than maybe that he was the father of the atomic bomb, a scientist who worked on this

Manhattan Project. But it's important for them to understand what happened to Oppenheimer was a tragedy. And we'll always be trying to live with the atomic bomb. It's been over 70 years since they were first used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And some people may think, oh, 70 years is a long time, and this proves that deterrence has worked. But I would argue that I think we've become a little complacent. We're still living in the nuclear age. We will always be living in the nuclear age. And the story's not over, and it could still end badly. You can look at the war in Ukraine, where Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, has threatened the use of tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield in Ukraine. It's still a very dangerous world.

Well, Kai Bird, it was so good speaking with you today on American History Tellers. It's an absolute pleasure to have met you, the biographer of a man I admire, and your work was turned into a film that will continue to enthrall people even decades after the initial events. So thank you. Thank you, Lindsay. That was my conversation with Kai Bird, Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer and co-author of American Prometheus, the Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer, which was the basis for Christopher Nolan's film Oppenheimer. From Wondery, this is our fourth and final episode of The Manhattan Project for American History Tellers. On our next season, at the turn of the 19th century, slavery's grip on America

grew stronger. The Underground Railroad emerged to help enslaved people escape to freedom. A sprawling web of safe houses and escape routes stretched hundreds of miles from the border states to Canada, becoming a lifeline for tens of thousands of men and women who dared flee bondage in the decades before the Civil War. If you like American History Tellers, you can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. American History Tellers is hosted, edited, and produced by me, Lindsey Graham, for Airship.

Audio editing and sound design by Molly Bach. Music by Lindsey Graham. Additional writing by Matt Almos. This episode was produced by Polly Stryker and Alita Rozanski. Our senior interview episode producer is Peter Arcuni. Coordinating producer is Desi Blalock. Managing producer, Matt Gant. Senior managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Managing producer, Matt Kant. Senior managing producer is Ryan Moore.

Senior producer, Andy Herman. Executive producers are Jenny Lauer-Beckman and Marsha Louis for Wondery. Richard Bandler revolutionized the world of self-help all thanks to an approach he developed called neuro-linguistic programming. Even though NLP worked for some, its methods have been criticized for being dangerous in the wrong hands. Throw in Richard's dark past as a cocaine addict and murder suspect, and you can't help but wonder what his true intentions were. I'm Saatchi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the hosts of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away. We recently dove into the story of the godfather of modern mental manipulation, Richard Bandler, whose methods

inspired some of the most toxic and criminal self-help movements of the last two decades. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Scamfluencers and more Exhibit C true crime shows like Morbid and Kill List early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+. Check out Exhibit C in the Wondery app for all your true crime listening.