American History Tellers - Tulsa Race Massacre Update: Excavating Mass Graves | 7

Episode Date: March 4, 2020

New archaeological evidence suggests mass graves holding the remains of victims of the Tulsa Race Massacre may exist on two sites in Tulsa. And now scientists plan to excavate portions of those sites to try and uncover the truth. Residents for years had asked the city to take similar steps but until now it hasn’t happened. On this episode we get an update on these developments from Hannibal B. Johnson, an attorney and historian who has written several books on the Massacre. He joins us from Tulsa to talk about what this excavation could uncover and what it means when a community reckons with the darkest part of its history.Support us by supporting our sponsors!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge new seasons of American History Tellers early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Imagine it's July 1919 in Washington, D.C. You live in the neighborhood of LaDroit Park and will soon go back to a high school nearby. The summer's already half over. Still, this Monday evening, the humidity is so thick that even the walls of your bedroom seem to sweat. You're lying in your bed by the window, hoping that the faintest breeze might catch your arms when you hear shouts from down the street. Sitting up, you lean out the window to get a better look, but you can't make out much in the twilight.

Whatever it is makes your stomach churn. That's when your older brother, Louis, bursts into the room. Get away from that window. He's out of breath, like he's been running. What's going on? It's a mob, a white mob. They're coming up Second Street. And they've got guns and they're destroying everything.

Where's Mom? She's fine. She's fine. She's here. But I need you to come with me. That's when you realize that your brother's carrying two rifles. Come on, we're going to the roof. Friday night, four days ago, a white woman said she'd been assaulted and robbed by two black men near Capitol Hill.

There didn't seem to be any evidence to back up her story, but that didn't stop gangs of white soldiers from mobbing a black neighborhood south of the mall over the weekend. And then this morning, the Washington Post called for more white servicemen to mobilize and clean up the city. It didn't take a genius to understand that the neighborhoods they wanted cleaned up were only the black ones. You and your brother climb out onto the roof of your building and hurry to a ledge. Stay down. Don't let them see your head until we're ready. Ready for what? Your brother begins loading ammunition into the rifles.

His movements are calm and methodical. He fought in France in an all-black regiment. Won a medal. You often wondered what it was like for him over there. Now you're starting to get a good idea. Remember how we did target practice? That was last year. He hands you a loaded rifle. And you were good at it then. You'll be good at it now. I don't want you to shoot anyone, though. You're going to shoot near them, all right? We're getting closer, but we just want to scare them off. They can pick another street, you understand? You look at your brother. How is it a black man can go across the ocean and fight for

his country, then have to come back and fight for his own neighborhood? He finishes loading his rifle and looks to you. These idiots don't realize they trained me for this, but we're still aiming at the ground around them. But if they see where the shots are coming from, won't they just burn our building down or something? We're up here to keep that from happening. We're up here to protect ourselves. We're citizens, just like those white people. Now, crouch like I'm doing. Get ready. You slowly pull yourself up. The barrel of your rifle is barely sticking out over the roof. Looking down into the street, you see dozens of white men wreaking havoc, destroying everything around them. Between some of them, you see a clear

space of ground. Pull the rifle up. Look down at sight. Now all you have to do is pull the trigger. From Wondery comes a new series about a lawyer who broke all the rules. Need to launder some money? Broker a deal with a drug cartel? Take out a witness? Paul can do it. I'm your host, Brandon James Jenkins. Follow Criminal Attorney on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Nick. And this is Jack. And we just launched a brand new podcast called The Best Idea Yet. You may have heard of it. It's all about the untold origin stories of the products you're obsessed with. Listen to The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. From Wondery, I'm Lindsey Graham, and this is American race riot erupted in Washington, D.C. The violence was fueled by incendiary headlines published in area newspapers.

And in the end, as many as 39 were dead and hundreds of innocent Black residents put behind bars. To fight back, Black veterans just returned from World War I took up posts on rooftops with their rifles, prepared to defend their neighborhoods from the white mobs. It was one of the many riots that erupted across the country from late winter into the summer of 1919. Cities including Charleston, Chicago, Omaha, and many others all experienced race-fueled violence. It was dubbed the Red Summer, and it was a precursor to what would be the deadliest race massacre in the history of the United States in Tulsa in 1921. Today, we have an update on our series from last summer on the

Tulsa Race Massacre. The neighborhood of Greenwood in Tulsa was once a thriving African-American community, known nationally as Black Wall Street. But on May 30, 1921, all that changed when a mob of white residents burned the neighborhood to the ground. An estimated 300 people were killed, 40 blocks destroyed, and thousands left homeless. Now, 99 years later, new archaeological evidence suggests mass graves from that massacre may exist on two sites in Tulsa. Scientists plan to excavate portions of those sites to try to uncover the truth. Our guest today is Hannibal B. Johnson, an attorney and historian who has written several books on the massacre. He joins us from Tulsa to talk about what this excavation could uncover and what it means when a community reckons with the darkest part of its history.

Here's our conversation. Hannibal B. Johnson, welcome to American History Tellers. It's great to be here. I'd like to get your reaction to the news that there will be an excavation of two sites in Tulsa where potential mass graves could exist from the Tulsa massacre. What is the significance to this chapter of American history if indeed there are victims of the massacre buried there? Well, it's always important to answer as best we can the lingering questions from our history. And based on the work of the Oklahoma Commission to study the Tulsa

Race Riot of 1921, which was a legislatively created body that convened in 1997 and issued its final report in February 2001, there is some evidence, mostly eyewitness and oral testimonial evidence, of potential mass graves being located in Tulsa. And the original commission wasn't able to fully explore those possibilities. So, our current mayor, G.T. Bynum, mayor of the city of Tulsa, has made it a personal mission to, as best we can, once again, answer that lingering question from history as to whether or not there are mass graves in the city of Tulsa. Now, the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre is obviously an event in Tulsa's history which besmirched the community's reputation, really negatively impacted race relations going forward. And so to the extent that we can clear up the historical record on any particular question, like the question of mass graves, it's important that we do so. In that spirit, do you support the excavation?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I should just note that the excavation is one step in the process. So the process began with exploring which sites are most likely to contain any potential mass graves. Once those sites were identified, then the scientific, the archaeological work was done to determine whether there was any kind of evidence of anomalies beneath the surface in any of these sites. And there was a sort of probability analysis. It's based on those analyses that the excavation occurs. So, excavation is not something that's done in a haphazard way.

It's based upon a foundation of science. What about the community? What have you heard in the community about this news? Do people generally acknowledge that this part of the city's past needs to be investigated and told the right way, especially as we close in on the 100-year anniversary? Absolutely. I speak about this history all over the country. And people are, one, they're concerned that the history has been essentially hidden from them for decades. And two, they're concerned that the history is not fully incorporated in curricular materials even today. So any work that we can do to shed light on this history and clarify any lingering questions is important work. And the vast majority of people with whom I deal,

of whatever race or ethnicity, are fully supportive of the notion that we ought learn our history, learn from our history, so that we can move forward together. Why do you think it's now that this is happening? Is it solely the focus of the 100-year anniversary, or is there something larger in the culture that is taking a closer look? Well, I mean, the real illumination of this history began in earnest in the 1990s with the empaneling of the commission that I referenced earlier, Empaneled in 1997, Final Report Issued 2001. So, since that point, there's been a lot of attention toward uncovering the history of the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, better telling the story, incorporated in

curricular materials. There have been a number of books written, a number of documentaries done. So, it's been the last 20-plus years in which this history has really come to light in a really robust way. It's not recent. It is true that the centennial of the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre is fast upon us. It will be May 31st, June 1st, 2021. And there are a lot of things going on in conjunction with that centennial. I serve on the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre Centennial Commission. We are building a world-class history center in the Greenwood District, which is the historical African-American community. We are building a pathway to hope that connects some of the critical sites in the Greenwood District, including the Greenwood Cultural Center, the John F. Franklin Reconciliation Park.

And we are, perhaps most importantly, working as best we can to rekindle the Black Wall Street mindset, that spirit of entrepreneurship, that can-do spirit, the indomitable human spirit around creating economic activity and enterprise, not just in Tulsa's Black community, the Greenwood District, but really all over the country. So it sounds like you're, that many people in Tulsa are taking this centenary as an opportunity to return to the robust growth of this area of the city. But I also wonder, in the several years since the 97th Commission was paneled, what was, if any, the pushback about further examining this era of history and, in particular, excavating these sites? Well, one sort of standard mantra that you get in terms of resistance is the old adage, let sleeping dogs lie. The notion that if we just put this to bed and don't revisit it, we won't cause the kind of uncomfortability and frustration that could lead to stressful relations between folks in the community. I think that is wrongheaded. have the courageous conversations around our real history, we'll never build the bridges of trust that we need between races, ethnicities, and various groups in our community. So what's really

important is to examine our history, warts and all, come to grips with it, figure out how to leverage the positive aspects of our history and build relationships such that we build the trust that we need in our communities, not just in Tulsa, but all over the country to heal our history. Tulsa is not the only place in the country that has historical racial trauma. We know that, for example, in 1919, there were more than two dozen so-called race riots throughout the United States in places as far-flung as New York and Philadelphia, Baltimore, Memphis, Omaha, Washington, D.C., Longview, Texas, Elaine, Arkansas, Chicago, Illinois. I could go on and on and on. So historical racial trauma is not something unique to Tulsa. It is something that was endemic

in the early part of the 20th century in the United States of America. And we have to figure out ways to own our history and courageously use the lessons of that history to move forward together. Well, you're someone who has written and researched and worked very hard to tell this story of Tulsa's strife. What do you hope will come of the centenary and any findings in the excavations? I hope that Tulsa can be an object lesson for communities all around the country about the importance of healing history, the importance of acknowledging what was, to the extent that we can, apologizing for any kind of misdeeds that

have been done, and atoning, making amends, repairing the damage from this historical racial trauma, and figuring out in our diverse society how to move forward together. After all, what we share is our humanity. And that notion of shared humanity is what we should use to bring ourselves together under that sort of big umbrella that exists. I'm hoping that we can do some things here in Tulsa that really set the stage for positive development in race relations all across the country. And in a way that doesn't whitewash our history, but actually acknowledges the painful past that we have. Let's take a step back. We did a multi-part series on the Tulsa Massacre several months ago,

but many of our listeners may not have listened to that series. So, for those who are unfamiliar, I was wondering if you could remind us of those events. First, take us back to Greenwood, an area of Tulsa that was the center of this massacre. What was Greenwood like, and why did it gain the nickname Black Wall Street? So, the Greenwood District in Tulsa is the historically African American community. It's roughly a 35-square-block area that abuts downtown, separated by the Frisco Tracks, the dividing line. The Greenwood District was notable because of the proliferation of entrepreneurship that existed in that community. Booker T. Washington reportedly dubbed the community the Negro Wall Street of America, and later people referred to it as Black Wall Street. And that really is a reference to the many, many businesses and service providers

that existed in the community. Doctors, lawyers, dentists, pharmacists. There were haberdasheries and theaters, all manner of businesses, you name it. I often say that this was really more like a black Main Street and that most of these were small businesses, entrepreneurial enterprises, mom-and-pop type operations. But there was a proliferation of these businesses in the community, which created a teeming economy, a separate economy, separate because of Jim Crow laws, segregation laws, that made it difficult, if not impossible in most cases, for African Americans to apply their trades or to purchase goods and services in the greater white community. So the community became celebrated again all across the United States as an example of independence and industriousness and an enterprising people.

In November 1991, media tycoon Robert Maxwell mysteriously vanished from his luxury yacht in the Canary Islands. But it wasn't just his body that would come to the surface in the days that followed. It soon emerged that Robert's business was on the brink of collapse, and behind his facade of wealth and success was a litany of bad investments, mounting debt, and multi-million dollar fraud. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show Business Movers. We tell the true stories of business leaders who risked it all, the critical moments that define their journey, and the ideas

that transform the way we live our lives. In our latest series, a young refugee fleeing the Nazis arrives in Britain determined to make something of his life. Taking the name Robert Maxwell, he builds a publishing and newspaper empire that spans the globe. But ambition eventually curdles into desperation, and Roberts' determination to succeed turns into a willingness to do anything to get ahead. Follow Business Movers wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. For more than two centuries, the White House has been the stage for some of the most dramatic scenes in American history.

Inspired by the hit podcast American History Tellers, Wondery and William Morrow present the new book, The Hidden History of the White House. Each chapter will bring you inside the fierce power struggles, the world-altering decisions, and shocking scandals that have shaped our nation. You'll be there when the very foundations of the White House are laid in 1792, and you'll watch as the British burn it down in 1814. Then you'll hear the intimate conversations between FDR and Winston Churchill as they make plans to defeat Nazi forces in 1941. And you'll be in the Situation Room when President Barack

Obama approves the raid to bring down the most infamous terrorist in American history. Order The Hidden History of the White House now in hardcover or digital edition, wherever you get your books. So Greenwood was certainly a bustling area of commerce and entrepreneurship, but you've also called it a powder keg. What was the issue there if it was a model of success celebrated across the nation? It's always important to keep in mind the national context for events that we isolate in on. So the national context in America in the early part of the 20th century when this district was in its ascendancy was what historians and sociologists call the nadir of race relations in America, the low point of race relations in America. As I've mentioned, just 1919 alone, there were more than two dozen so-called race riots in America.

And these were largely invasions of Black communities by white mobs, vigilante justice. In fact, James Weldon Johnson of the NAACP called the summer and fall of 1919 Red Summer, red being a metaphor for the blood that flowed in the streets. In addition to these so-called race riots, this was a period in which lynching was rampant. Lynching is a form of domestic terrorism whereby a victim is targeted, punished, often murdered in horrific fashion in front of a crowd. But the point is not simply to punish that victim, but rather to send a message to the group to which that person belongs. And most of the lynching

victims were Black. The message was clearly one of white supremacy. So the message to the Black community was, know your place and stay in that place. Between the collapse of Reconstruction in 1877 and the peak of the Civil Rights Movement in 1965, there were almost 5,000 lynchings in America. Most of those victims, once again, were Black the notion that there are people in the black community who are successful, who are driving fine cars, who have homes, who have jewelry, who have fine china. And that is certainly the case. So jealousy was a factor in terms of the poor race relations that existed here in the community. Once again, the Greenwood community abutted downtown. So there were railroad interests and other corporate interests that wanted the land

on which the Greenwood community sat. I call that land lust. There were also a number of other factors, including the role of the media. There was a media outlet called the Tulsa Tribune that published a series of inflammatory, incendiary articles and editorials.

And the Klan, the KKK, the Ku Klux Klan, grew tremendously in Tulsa and in Oklahoma during the 1920s. So when you combine all those factors, the confluence of those factors creates a tinderbox or a powder keg in Tulsa waiting simply on a catalyst, a match to be thrown on the smoldering embers. And that was the incident that many people may be familiar with, the incident on an elevator involving two teenagers, Dick Rowland, 19-year-old black shoeshine boy, Sarah Page, 17-year-old white girl who operated an elevator because elevators were manually operated at the time. So this happened on Monday, May 30th, 1921. Dick Rowland was doing what he did, which is sign shoes downtown. He needed to use the restroom. Segregation is in

effect. There's only one restroom at his disposal. It happens to be located on the third floor of the downtown Drexel building. He walks over to the Drexel building. He boards the elevator. Sarah Page is manually operating that elevator. The elevator door closes. Something happens. We don't know exactly what that caused the elevator to jerk or to lurch. Dick Rowland bumped into Sarah Page. Sarah Page began to scream. The elevator landed back in the lobby. Dick Rowland ran from the elevator. Sarah Page began to scream. The elevator landed back in the lobby. Dick Rowland ran from the elevator. Sarah Page was distraught. She was met by a clerk from a locally owned store called Renberg's. That clerk comforted her.

She told the clerk her story. And the Tulsa Tribune, that daily afternoon newspaper I've referenced earlier, got wind of the story and published an account the next day. Now, the account published in the Tribune was one that made Sarah Page look virtuous and, as a corollary, made Dick Rowland look villainous. And Sarah Page, at the end of the day, would not testify against Dick Rowland. She acknowledged that the story published in the Tribune was fictional, that there was an accidental bump or brush on the elevator, that she overreacted. Again, but because the Tribune published the story the next day, May 31st, 1921, things got really out of hand.

The Tribune framed the story as an attempted rape of a respectable white girl in a downtown building in broad daylight in Tulsa. So readers of the Tribune, who believe the Tribune to be a credible newspaper, were understandably concerned about the event. A large white mob gathered. There were rumors that Dick Rowland was going to be lynched. The sheriff was Sheriff McCullough. He protected Dick Rowland, put him in jail on the top floor of the courthouse. He had somebody man the stairs and protect Dick Rowland. He shut off the elevator.

But these rumors of a lynching persisted. Ultimately, several dozen black men, some of them armed, some of them World War I veterans with weapons who knew how to use them, marched down to the courthouse to protect Dick Rowland. They were met by that larger white mob that I mentioned earlier. Words were exchanged. One of the white men tried to disarm a black man. The gun discharged and things went south from there. Ultimately, the white mob

numbered in the thousands. That mob, again, ultimately spilled over into the Greenwood District after having looted pawn shops and sporting goods stores for weapons and ammunition, crossed the Frisco tracks into the Greenwood District, looting, burning, shooting, decimated the community. And after about 16 hours of violence, some 100 to 300 people had lost their lives. More than 1,250 homes had been destroyed. Numerous businesses, churches, and other enterprises destroyed. Property damage, conservatively estimated at the time, ran between $1.5 and $2 million, well over $25 million today. Many Black families spent days, weeks, and months living in tent cities set up by the American Red Cross. Some Black men and

some Black women and children were actually interned in internment camps throughout the city, very much like people of Japanese ancestry were interned during World War II. So that is a quick version of what transpired here in Tulsa that really forever changed the trajectory of race and race relations in this community. It's an outrageous story of domestic warfare. And we've often mentioned that it's a tale that has been lost to history, that hasn't been told or explored enough. But I'm curious about what the narrative in Tulsa was in the immediate aftermath of the massacre.

How was this contained? How was this explained away? It's complicated, like most things. So a number of the leading institutions in the community, the Chamber of Commerce, the City Commission, framed this as a Negro uprising. And that's documented in their historical records and their minutes and so forth, there was an effort to push the Black community farther north. Because as I mentioned earlier, the land on which the Greenwood community sat was desired for a number of other interests, including railroad interests.

So part of the aftermath was this notion that, you know, this happened, it's too bad, but let's take advantage of this opportunity that it creates for us to take this land. The city even tried to rezone the area, change the fire code that would have made it cost prohibitive for black people to rebuild in their own community. That was successfully challenged by prominent black lawyer B.C. Franklin. Franklin also helped a number of the riot victims with their claims. So that was sort of one mindset that existed immediately after. The other mindset in the white community was one of shame. So there are a number of pronouncements in local papers from churches and other institutions proclaiming what a shame it is that this event occurred in the Tulsa community. And I should say that a couple of

churches helped tremendously in terms of the relief post-massacre. Holy Family Cathedral, First Presbyterian Church, both of which are strong institutions in the community today, can prove that they were very supportive in the aftermath of these events. When we think about historical racial trauma, much like the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, it's important to think about the psychological dynamics that exist after an event such as this. So let's think about shame and blame and guilt and post-traumatic stress disorder. The confluence of all these psychological dynamics, I think, help explain why this event was not talked about for so long.

Some people call it a conspiracy of silence. But I think it more likely is a conspiracy of these psychological dynamics that kept people, including some Black people, from really wanting to say anything further about these events after they transpired. Black people were fearful. I mean, black people thought, if this could happen on such a scale in this community, we're rebuilding right after these events, could it happen again? So maybe we shouldn't make such a big deal out of it. White people were thinking, Tulsa is a community on the move in terms of its national and international reputation.

It would become the oil capital of the world. So it might be in our best interest to minimize these events as our community grows and becomes more renowned throughout the nation and throughout the world. So it's complicated. The phrase I used earlier, it's complicated in terms of why this event has gone, in lawyer's parlance, sub rosa or under the surface for so long. Dracula, the ancient vampire who terrorizes Victorian London. Blood and garlic, bats and crucifixes. Even if you haven't read the book, you think you know the story. One of the incredible things about Dracula is that not only is it this wonderful snapshot of the 19th century,

but it also has so much resonance today. The vampire doesn't cast a reflection in a mirror. So when we look in the mirror, the only thing we see is our own monstrous abilities. From the host and producer of American History Tellers and History Daily comes the new podcast, The Real History of Dracula. We'll reveal how author Bram Stoker

raided ancient folklore, exploited Victorian fears around sex, science, and religion, and how even today we remain enthralled to his strange creatures of the night. You can binge all episodes of The Real History of Dracula exclusively with Wondery+.

Join Wondery Plus and The Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. How did Birkenstocks go from a German cobbler's passion project 250 years ago to the Barbie movie today? or Spotify. in the best idea yet. A brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy. This is Nick. This is Jack. And we've covered over a thousand episodes of pop business news stories on our daily podcast. We've identified the most viral products of all time. And their wild origin stories that you had no idea about.

From the Levi's 501 jeans to Legos. Come for the products you're obsessed with. Stay for the business insights that are gonna blow up your group chat. Jack, Nintendo, Super Mario Brothers, best-selling video game of all time, how'd they do it? Nintendo never fires anyone, ever.

Follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Best Idea Yet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. You mentioned the conspiracy of silence. That's a phrase that might indicate that this forgetting of the incident is not only willful, but orchestrated by a small group. Is that what you mean by conspiracy? I think what I intended to say is that there are some people who believe there was a conspiracy of silence. So, yes, conspiracy implies agreement.

It implies consciousness. There are certainly people who believe that this event was intentionally excluded from the community conversation. And I think there's certainly at least indirect evidence suggesting that it was excluded from curricular materials. It wasn't taught for many, many years. And that had to be at a conscious level. I mean, we have a history standard for Oklahoma history, and this history was purposefully left out of the mix and not included for decades. So there is some intentionality there. Let's return to the present day. Many people are aware of the Tulsa Race Massacre because it showed

up on the HBO show The Watchman. The opening scene from the first episode depicted the violent events of that night. Did you see this scene and how did you think they portrayed it? I did see the scene. Funny you should ask. Just last Friday, I moderated a discussion at Philbrook Museum of Art here in Tulsa with the director of Watchmen and the set designer for Watchmen. And Tim Blake Nelson, who's from Tulsa, is an actor in the series, was not able to join us via Skype, but he sent us about a five-minute video. And we showed the opening sequence of Watchmen at this event, which was sold out. And my view is that it is a powerful and accurate imagining of what it must have been like to be in Tulsa in 1921 on May 31st,

June 1st, and specifically to be black and under siege. Incredibly powerful, moving depiction of those events, which of course are not recorded events. We don't have any way of seeing the actual footage. But what Watchmen did was probably as good as it gets in terms of being accurate. Well, they did do a very good job of conveying the terror of that night, of seeing Greenwood lit on fire from airplane attack and mob riot.

But what is Greenwood like today, 99 years on? So many things have changed socially, politically, and economically in Tulsa, in America, in the world since 1921. So one might not be surprised that the Greenwood District is substantially different from the Greenwood District of 1921. Today, the Greenwood District is, first of all, integrated. Secondly, it is much less commercial. It's really an amalgam of different kinds of interests, from cultural to arts to entertainment to educational to religious to some commercial to some residential.

But it's a fully integrated community. Much of the land is no longer in Black hands. Part of what we're doing with the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre Centennial Commission is bringing people in the Greenwood District, people and organizations in the Greenwood District together to try to create a new iteration of Black Wall Street, a new identity for the community, and really shore up the community for cultural and historical tourism, which is a big thing nationwide. So again, we're building Greenwood Rising, which is a world-class history center. We're building a pathway to hope that connects some of the key sites in the Greenwood District. We're offering grants to people who want to do creative things in the Greenwood District,

including entrepreneurs. We're promoting entrepreneurship generally. We know that the eyes of the world will be on Tulsa at least for May 31st and June 1st, 2021. And so we want to put our best face forward. We want to show evidence of how Tulsa has improved over the course of this 100 years, realizing, as I hope most communities do, that we are by no means perfect. We have a lot of ground to cover, that race and race relations is really a journey, and that we have so much work to do around a number of issues. And a lot of the issues that we are dealing with are issues that are being dealt with in communities all across the country. Police relations with the Black community, reparations, mass incarceration, the same kinds of issues that

are dealt with in communities all over the country are the issues that we face here in a very profound way. Today's political climate is fractious. I have another podcast called American Elections Wicked Game that tries to illustrate that politics has almost always been violent and full of conflict, but most people feel today is worse than it has been a long time. This coincides with the centenary of this event and a reinvestigation of Tulsa. Why is it important to look at our divides, and how does looking at them heal them? Well, the first step in any endeavor, if we're looking to make progress, is to acknowledge what is. And if we look at the political landscape today, I think many people are troubled, not because things have been in the past perfect or beautiful, but there seems to be just an abject rejection of civility at the very top levels of leadership.

And that's what is troubling. It is deeply concerning when disagreements turn into demonization of people holding alternative views. And because when we let ourselves devolve into the position where we are making ad hominem attacks and we're demonizing other people, then we make it easy for acts of violence, like the violence that occurred in 1921, to happen. One of the things that the Tulsa Tribune did was talk about the Black community in extraordinarily vile terms. Talk about Black folks as subhuman. When you embrace that kind of thinking, it's much easier to do not just psychological harm, but physical harm to other folk. We are at a point, arguably, in our country

where the same sort of phenomena is occurring. That is to say, it's not simply about disagreements around policy or political differences. It's those people who are not like me are the other. And the other is bad, not entitled to dignity, not entitled to respect. And therefore, the only thing that is important for us is to stick together and make sure that we get our way and enforce our will on them. If we're not at that point right now, we're fast approaching that point. And that is a point on the precipice.

That was my conversation with Hannibal B. Johnson. He is an author and historian who has written multiple books on the Tulsa Race Massacre. Look for links to his work in the show notes. Next on American History Tellers, in the 1780s, the dust had barely settled on the American Revolution when new turmoil put the country's hard-won independence to the test. It was a world ablaze with class revolt and racial conflict. Join us for our next series, Rebellion in the Early Republic. We'll explore how popular uprisings tested state authority, the rule of law, and the institution of slavery. It helped shape America for decades to come. From Wondery, this is American History Tellers. I hope you

enjoyed this episode. If you did, I have two other podcasts you might like, American Scandal and American Elections Wicked Game. Search for them and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Wondery.com, or wherever you're listening to this right now. If you're listening on a smartphone, tap or swipe over the cover art of this podcast. You'll find the episode notes, including some details you may have missed. You'll also find some offers from our sponsors. By supporting them, you help us offer this show to you for free. And if you'd like to hear more of American History Tellers and other Wondery shows, in addition to receiving extra content, early access, and exclusive perks, you can subscribe to Wondery Plus. Go to wondery.com slash plus. That's wondery.com slash P-L-U-S. American History Tellers is hosted,

edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for Airship. Sound design by Derek Behrens. This episode was produced by Lee Hernandez. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louis. Created by Hernán López for Wondery. If you like American history tellers, you can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.