American Scandal - Houston Astros: Caught Stealing | Uncovering the Scheme | 5

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

Rumors were already swirling about the Astros and sign-stealing when people on the inside tipped off reporter Evan Drellich with damning details of the scheme. What he and his colleague Ken Rosenthal published in The Athletic in 2019 rocked the baseball world and forced many people to question the Astros’ 2017 World Series title. Today, Drellich joins Lindsay to talk about the scandal and his book, Winning Fixes Everything: How Baseball’s Brightest Minds Created Sports’ Biggest Mess. Listen to American Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season. Unlock exclusive early access by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today by visiting wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. From Wondery, I'm Lindsey Graham, and this is American Scandal. Here's a ground ball, right side, could do it. The Houston Astros are world champions for the first time in franchise history. That's the sound of the Houston Astros winning Game 7 against the Dodgers to become World Series champions in 2017. As the players and owner Jim Crane reveled in the victory, one announcer said, this well-run organization gets to celebrate here at Dodger Stadium. But beyond the champagne and

commissioner's trophy, a dark cloud swirled. All around baseball, insiders began to talk, alleging the Astros had invented a system of sign-stealing that involved using video technology and banging on trash cans. At least one fan noticed a distinct pattern to the thumping, and questions and rumors began to swirl. When Inside Sources tipped off reporter Evan Drellick, he knew it might be a huge story. And it was. Drellick and fellow reporter Ken Rosenthal broke the Astros' sign-stealing scandal for The Athletic, and Evan joins me today. He's aaling scandal for The Athletic, and Evan joins me today.

He's a senior writer for The Athletic covering baseball and the author of the book Winning Fixes Everything, How Baseball's Brightest Minds Created Sports' Biggest Mess. Our conversation is next. In the past decade, Boeing has been involved in a series of scandals and deadly crashes that have dented its once sterling reputation. At the center of it all, the 737 MAX. The latest season of Business Wars explores how Boeing allowed things to turn deadly and what, if anything, can save the company's reputation.

Make sure to listen to Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. Evandrelic, thanks for speaking with me today on American Scandal. Hello, Lindsay. Thanks for having me. So as someone who's covered the Astros for the Houston Chronicle for a fair amount of time, I'd love to know what your thoughts were when they began to rise as a team and then win the World Series in 2017. You know, they had undertaken this really ambitious losing project. They had tanked for a number of years to try to acquire top draft picks and thereby rebuild. And so when they finally did get good, it was not surprising. That was the plan all along, that they would suffer through these years of bad baseball

and that they would accumulate and stockpile these top players. And eventually, they would get good. And frankly, when the current administration took over, they already had some good players in the organization. They had George Springer. They had Jose Altuve. They had Dallas Keuchel. So they weren't starting from nothing.

But the idea was that it would take a long rebuild to get to a point of contention. And how was it to go through these painful years? The Astros had never won a World Series. It was a fan base and a franchise that was starved and ready for something different. And you had this gregarious and charming executive in Jeff Luno come in, and you had an owner in Jim Crane who had not been a major league owner before. And so they represented something shiny and new and transformative for an organization that, through every other attempt and every

other method they had employed, had never really gotten anywhere. The fan base was basically ready for anything, even as painful as it was. So to the point of our series, sign stealing. Now, it and other shenanigans have been around in the game, you know, as long as the game has existed. But what did Major League Baseball allow in terms of stealing signs in 2017? What was considered acceptable and what was forbidden? What's always been allowed is if you were a runner on base, if you're a runner on second base, you can use your eyes to stare in and see if you can pick up what the catcher is throwing down. If you can detect that, okay, one means fastball, which is traditionally what one has meant when a catcher flashes the number one

between his legs, it's all fair game. What was violative at the time in a broad sense, there weren't as many specific rules as there should have been, but what was violative was using electronics. You were not allowed to use electronics to aid in sign stealing. The cardinal sin of the Astros scheme is using off-the-field electronics. It is not the fact that they stole signs at all. It is the method and how they did it, which totally eliminated the field of play. But in 2017, this using electronics was perhaps a gray area? By the letter of the law, it should not have been a gray area. By the way it had been legislated and handled, it had kind of become something of a gray area.

Major League Baseball in 2014 introduced expanded instant replay. Baseball was trying to catch up with the NFL and other sports where fans at home could easily see, well, this call was wrong. Why can't we reverse it? And so in 2014, Major League Baseball gives every single team a replay video room. And now you have to have a staffer in this room where the manager of the dugout can call in and say, hey, does this play right? Should we challenge it? Should we challenge this call? And so the staffers using video and players using this video on some teams, a couple contending teams starts to realize, well, we can use this video to our advantage in a different way. team starts to realize, well, we can use this video to our advantage in a different way.

And so there is this sanctioned use of video from which this clearly illegal behavior arises. You are not supposed to be using the replay room to be able to, in real time, steal the other team's signs. But the great folly of Major League Baseball in this endeavor is that they didn't realize what would happen if you gave these hyper-competitive players in these teams access to something like video. They always want an edge, and they found one. So in 2011, this is the year that the Astros hired ex-McKinsey consultant Jeff Luno as their general manager, the same year that Moneyball came out as a film based on the book by Michael Lewis. There was change in the water in Major League Baseball. How did Luno change the culture at the Astros, though? And how did you think an adapt-or-die ethos feature into the rebuilding of the team? Before Moneyball,

baseball teams were basically trophy prizes for very wealthy men. They were not run with the same ruthless approach that many of these same people applied in their day-to-day business lives. And Moneyball comes in, it shows that efficiency, which was already taking hold in the outside world, could do wonders for a baseball team. And that a lot of the statistics that were being applied in baseball were not really the best ones. They were not the most accurate predictors of future performance. And so you have this rush among major league owners who see the success of the Oakland A's with a small payroll, who want to do the same thing. The big market teams, the Red

Sox, the Yankees, all of these teams look around and go, why are we getting beat by these little guys? And so executives who are of an efficiency mindset, who, like Jeff Luno, might have a McKinsey background, are suddenly desirable. And it creates a culture conflict in the sport where there was an old school way and a new school way. And one of the things that baseball teams and a lot of businesses aren't particularly good at and certainly weren't at that time is change management, figuring out the right ways to adopt to new styles and implement new methodologies. And Jeff Luno arrives in St. Louis. The Cardinals hire him as an executive, and he helps transform their farm system, helps turn the Cardinals into more of a powerhouse, but ruffles a lot of feathers along the way. Now, one might expect a consultant, a spreadsheet-minded executive to be perhaps bookish or standoffish, but you've described Jeff Luno as charming. Correct. Jeff Luno, if you were to have a conversation with him, could knock your socks

off. He is charming, and he knows how to manage upwards. He was particularly savvy at delivering what he wanted to those above him. I think in a way the most powerful and sometimes dangerous people are really the most charismatic. And Luno was very media savvy. In other words, he knew how to play the game. He knew how to curry favor with the public, with the stakeholders that he saw as important. And at the same time, there was another side of him that could treat people working below him very poorly. There were a lot of people fired when Jeff Luno got to Houston. There was a real ripping the Band-Aid, bloodletting process,

which is every business owner's right. It was certainly something that had not been done in baseball nearly as aggressively as what the Astros had done before. It's a different culture in baseball where employees work incredibly long hours for very little pay. It is not the case that front office people in baseball are making a lot of money outside of perhaps the top executive. You have scouts, you have back office staff, you have people who really do make a lot of sacrifices in terms of time and schedule for the reward of saying you work for a baseball team. The reward is not in the amount of money you make.

And it was not a gentle process, what was undertaken in Houston. Now, you were covering the Astros for the Houston Chronicle in this rebuilding period, 2013 to 2016. What was your experience covering the team? How did Luno either charm or otherwise you? What about the owner, Crane? I was a young, ambitious reporter who was raised in New York and had worked at New York Papers and in Boston.

These are major media markets. And, you know, I wasn't going to go into Houston throwing softballs. And I think sometimes smaller markets and Houston, despite being a very large city, it's either third or fourth in population right now, you know, its media market is smaller and there is a different mentality there. And what the Astros had certainly come to expect is favorable coverage. Jim Crane, the owner of the Astros, had previously had some messy dealings with the media, had some very public divorces. He also had some major scandals previous to the Astros in his business life and did not

have a particular taste for reporters who would question what they were doing. And so I wrote a mix of everything. I wrote what was going on. There were very cool stories about the name of the Astros database, which was called Ground Control, an obvious nod to NASA. And Luno loved giving access to things that made him look good. But if there were ever questions, he did not like it. And there was a point where I wrote a story about how the industry was looking at the Astros as outcasts. This was early in my time there. I look back on it and think it was actually quite an ambitious story for a young reporter. And next year, I believe, Jim Crane, the owner and the head of PR, sat down with the two top editors at the Houston Chronicle and lobbied to get me removed from the job.

They wanted me fired from covering the Astros. So these things happen. They're not uncommon in baseball or outside of baseball. But they did not react well to people who would dare question their methods. And then even after you did leave the Houston Chronicle, I assume under your own power, you went to work for NBC Sports Boston. It was then that you got information about the Astros' sign-stealing schemes. I'd like to know who tipped you off and what they said and what you then did about it. Yeah, I did leave the Houston Chronicle on my own power.

I went back to Boston, where I'd come from. I thought it was a better media market and somewhere I could kind of climb. Boston where I'd come from. I thought it was a better media market and somewhere I could kind of climb. I was covering the Red Sox in October of 2018 when I found out from a firsthand source what was going on in Houston, what had happened during the 2017 World Series and that 2017 season and how they had cheated. I cannot tell you more than that. The original story that broke the scandal cited four sources. One of them was on the record in Pitcher Mike Fires, but there were three other people whom Ken Rosenthal and I spoke with. But needless to say, upon learning what had happened, and this is 13 months before the story was published, it was flooring. And my first thought where my mind

went was, how do I get this? Well, you know, 13 months is an awful long time. And I'm wondering, how do you get a story into shape so that it is published? What did you need? What were the ingredients? Well, I was at the time working for a regional sports network in Boston. Regional sports networks, as a broad stroke, are not typically in the business of investigative work.

And I started to go down the path of doing a story when I was there, still at NBC. It turns out that for reasons that I believe have nothing to do with this story, they let me go a few months later. I don't exactly know why. So October of 2018 is when I learned about it. February 2019, I'm fired. And, you know, look, I'm sitting at home wondering what the hell is going to happen to my career. It's a bad job market. And I wondered more than once, you know, did I pass on what could have been or probably would have been the biggest story of my life? And I was not taking care of myself. I was not of healthy mind or body at the time. And so it was very difficult.

And so to your question, what ingredients did I need? I needed a job. I needed people behind me who believed in the work and that kind of work. And I'm very fortunate that I did find that at The Athletic with my colleague Ken Rosenthal and many editors behind us. But before this, though, you did write at least a general story on electronic sign stealing in November of 2018. How was that received? Nobody cared. It was a story that was kind of wonkish.

It was pretty inside ball. It was talking about how the league and league officials were starting to crack down on this. Because in the 2018 postseason and in 2018 in general, there was a lot of finger pointing in the sport. There was kind of general allegations. There was one report at ESPN about the Astros maybe banging on some garbage cans, but there were no specifics. There was just a lot of teams suspicious of one another. And so it was clearly something that needed to be addressed by the league.

And my story was simply discussing how it could be. But no, no one cared. The little tidbit about the Astros I had in there wasn't highlighted and it wasn't meant to be highlighted. I'm Jake Warren. And in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest

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we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. On January 5th, 2024, an Alaska Airlines door plug tore away mid-flight, leaving a gaping hole in the side of a plane that carried 171 passengers. This heart-stopping incident was just the latest in a string of crises surrounding the aviation manufacturing giant, Boeing. In the past decade, Boeing has been involved in a series of damning scandals and deadly

crashes that have chipped away at its once sterling reputation. At the center of it all, the 737 MAX. Thank you. a titan to its knees, and what, if anything, can save the company's reputation. Now, follow Business Wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge Business Wars, the unraveling of Boeing, early and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. So it's the beginning of 2019. You have what you described as perhaps the biggest story of your career, but you've been laid off from NBC. You need to find institutional backing to tell this story.

What happens next? I joined The Athletic in May of 2019, and we don't start working on the story right away. And in hindsight, I wish we had. But I was pretty shell-shocked. The Astros at the time were a juggernaut of a team. The 2019 Astros were a great baseball team. And no matter when this story was going to be published, it was the kind of thing that it was going to take some convincing of the public,

of the people behind me. You know, who's going to believe that sitting in my notebook, this great franchise, this great story had actually been cheating. We needed more sources. And so eventually, Ken Rosenthal and I set out to get more. And I'm glad we eventually got it done. It worked out properly. You cannot do a story like that without the right number of sources and confirmation. You can't be a maybe on that type of story. So it is eventually that you and Ken begin digging into the story itself. And I suppose you discovered all sorts of things,

one of which is that this whole scheme, which isn't surprising for an organization led by Jeff Luno, who's a data guy, started with an Excel spreadsheet called CodeBreaker. If that's where it started, how did it evolve? Codebreaker, it sounds sexier than it is, frankly. It's really just a basic log of what pitches the other team was throwing and what sign was put down. It's something they did in Excel toward the end of the 2016 season.

There's a tricky line here where if you are in advance reviewing what had happened in a previous game and before your own game, that's legal. You know, you can look back at a prior game's tape and try to track all the signs if you like. What then becomes a problem is if you start to apply that in-game, if you are doing that actual logging effort in the middle of the game using electronics. But so something that was a legal tool to use in advance, not live during a game, created a clear opportunity going into 2017 for something more developed. And there was a coach who came over, a bench coach, Alex Cora, now the manager of the Boston Red Sox, and Carlos Beltran, who very briefly became the manager of the Boston Red Sox, and Carlos Beltran, who very

briefly became the manager of the New York Mets, never actually managed a game because of this scandal. And they were friends, and Beltran had been on the Yankees, and the Yankees had conducted a version of electronic science stealing, not something as egregious as what the Astros were doing. But they get there, and there is a push to do something more. And so going into 2017, the system evolved. But it's not really a smooth evolution. There has to be a pretty obvious crossing of the line, out of gray area into not-so-gray area. And I suppose it happened when a video monitor with a live feed of the game was placed in the tunnel at Minute Maid Park.

And I believe you saw personal evidence of this, right? How did this decision get made? So, Carlos Beltran and Alex Cora get to the Astros, and Beltran certainly knows firsthand what the Yankees had done. What the Yankees had done and what the Red Sox had done in 2016 was they had used the video room to decode signs, and then they would get that information to the dugout. So, if a runner got on second base, the runner would know what the key is to the catcher's code. So the runner is still stealing the sign himself when he's on second base, but he has an aid. He knows because of what he was told in the dugout, okay, it's the third sign. Two means curveball.

He knows that when he gets to second base. He doesn't have to try to figure that out on his own because of live, real-time deciphering that's been going on. The Astros decide we're going to take this a step farther. We're not going to just have this work when someone is standing on second base. We're going to have this work if no one's on base. And we're going to put in a monitor near the dugout that's going to take this camera feed. The camera is fixed on the catcher, and we're going to have our guys, some staff, and some players watch this monitor,

decode the signs, and once we know what it is or have a best guess at what's coming, we will make a noise so that the hitter will hear it. And they made a noise comically by banging on a garbage can. There was a large garbage can, just steps from the Astros dugout. But this is different than anything that had happened before. What had happened before was all based around you still needed a guy on second base. This is entirely off the field. This is a camera to a television monitor to someone in the tunnel making a noise so that the batter can hear it. And that was the line that was crossed.

Both forms of it are cheating to have a guy on second base who had help from the video system, but the Astros system, which could happen on any pitch in real time to let someone know it's coming, is considered much more egregious. So then finally in 2019, you and your colleague Ken Rosenthal

published the expose on the Astros sign-stealing scheme for the Athletic. A few days before your story went to press, though, Rosenthal was able to get a hold of a former Astros pitcher, Mike Fiers. And I suppose he was a key ingredient here because he went on the record to confirm sign-stealing. Many other players did not. Why do you think Fiers decided to talk? What was the value of him going on the record for your story?

It does not matter what you are reporting on. It is just a fact of reporting life that there is better credibility when people put their names behind what they're talking about and the sources aren't anonymous. Frankly, there are a lot of stories that you're not going to get someone to go on the record for. And Ken and I had three sources. We had reached a point where we were confident in what we had. These were three individuals who knew firsthand what had gone on. And so we were preparing to publish a story, but we were still going to try. It was kind of a hail Mary, well, let's see if we can find somebody. And Ken Rosenthal got Mike Fiers on the phone and Mike Fiers was willing to go on the record with us. In the original story, we quoted Mike Fiers on the phone, and Mike Fiers was willing to go on the record with us. In the original story, we quoted Mike Fiers explaining that he wanted the game cleaned up,

that he was tired of it. Mike Fiers had moved on to a couple other teams and had taken it on himself to warn those teams when going into Houston of what the Astros were doing and what they could be facing there. Were there consequences for Fiers? I think in any setting, corporate, sports, to have someone discuss corruption, to put yourself in a position, as did happen with Mike Fiers, where the public and others are going to say, well, you're a rat. You know, you snitched on us, which I think is totally unfair. You know, whistleblowers, it takes a lot of courage to do it. And I think it's a great burden for someone to decide to step out, particularly in sports where there's a clubhouse culture and locker room culture. And, you know, what happens between us stays with us, a machismo and all that. It was a bold thing for him to do. I've seen some awful things said about Mike Fiers.

Anybody who's been kind of tied to this, I think Mike Fiers wore certainly the brunt of it with people writing about him being a quote-unquote rat and things of that nature. Just ugly stuff when, particularly if you're in the media, your job should be pursuing the truth. Your job is not to protect the clubhouse environment. Your job is reality and presenting reality to people. So I don't want to speak for Mike, but he saw some ugly stuff. There's no question about that. So it don't want to speak for Mike, but he saw some ugly stuff. There's no question about that. So it sounds like there was some definitely mixed reception to your expose, but in general, how do you think it was received by the public and the baseball world?

I think most people were outraged. Within hours, John Boy, who is a Yankees fan who's turned himself into a full-time media member and production company puts together a video backing up exactly what we said in the story. And so the story is circulating. And very quickly afterward, the video is circulating. And people were just outraged. Players were outraged. The story comes out in November when spring training begins in February.

The players couldn't stop talking about it. It was like this fire that couldn't be put out. And now were Astros fans angry? Of course. But on a whole, people were stunned because there was suspicion amongst other players and other teams about what was going on. But there had been nothing concrete

and people were kind of in disbelief that, wow, they would do that? They would really go to that level? And as a World Series winning team, it was a jarring thing for the baseball world. You mentioned suspicions about other teams. And clearly your story was about the Astros specifically. But, you know, rumors were going around

about all sorts of teams doing all sorts of things. Were the Astros the only team using technology to gain an edge in the game? No, definitively, they were not the only team using technology, but there is this dividing line that exists between what the Astros were doing and what the other teams that we know were doing. The Red Sox, the Yankees, based on my reporting, the Dodgers, big market veteran teams, strong contending teams at the time, had figured out that they could use this video replay room in-game to gain something of an edge. And the form that that took was guys would go from the video room to the dugout, say, hey, you get on second base, this is the code. This

is what you need to know. Guy gets on second base, okay, he knows. That is still cheating. And you can argue, the former commissioner, Faye Vincent, did argue that any cheating is cheating and we shouldn't be kind of assigning more to different varieties of it. But the reality is that within the sport, what the other teams were doing is regarded by most as having paled in comparison to what the Astros were doing. Because again, the Astros removed any pretense of having someone on the field of play. It was entirely off the field of play. And I think that is why it was so jarring for people,

is to think that the competition you are watching, when Alex Bregman, an Astros player, swings at a curveball with two strikes on him, he's one pitch away from striking out, and he hits a home run, and you hear that garbage can bang right before he hits that home run. And there's nobody standing on second base. I had a visceral reaction. It really just kind of spits in the face of competition and the quote unquote integrity of the game.

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They had, during the preceding postseason, so during the 2019 postseason, had tried to call a Sports Illustrated reporter, Stephanie Epstein, a liar about a totally separate incident from sign stealing. There was an executive with the Astros who had screamed in the direction of three women in the clubhouse, and this incident gained a lot of attention and led to the executive being fired during the postseason. But the Astros' first reaction, as often was their first reaction, was to try to attack the credibility of the reporter. They were a particularly aggressive franchise with the media. When this happened, to some degree, it was out of their hands at this point.

The commissioner's office of Major League Baseball was involved now. And Major League Baseball, frankly, it had enough of the Astros. The incident I was just describing had taken away a lot of attention during the 2019 postseason. The commissioner's office is not like when attention is taken away from what's going on on the field during the postseason. The postseason is the jewel of the baseball season. And the Astros had been a controversial franchise, period. The consultant McKenzie-style culture that Jeff Luno brought in, there had been small controversy after small controversy with them,

and their credibility was gone. They handled a spring training press conference very poorly, did nothing to put out the flames at that point. But media relations is one of the weakest points about the Astros. So then the Astros are facing the consequences here. What were the consequences, though? Did your reporting or any investigation find that most of the Astros were in on the scheme or only a few?

If you were on that team and in that dugout, you knew what was going on. It would have been very difficult not to, unless perhaps you were there for a day or two. Major League Baseball issues the maximum allowable fine, and this is maximum allowable as set by the Major League Constitution, which all the other owners decide, and it's $5 million, which sounds like a lot of money to the layperson. It is not a lot of money in an industry that takes in, at the time, probably $10 or $11 billion a year. Now it's up to about a dozen. But it was the maximum allowable fine. There were also draft picks. The Astros' first two draft picks in the subsequent drafts were taken away. And that hurts your ability to restock your talent. By the fact that the Astros were a good team, those draft picks were at the end of the draft order. And so they're not as

valuable as they would have been if they had been a bad team. They did not discipline the players. The players were granted immunity in this process. The Astros did not have their title stripped. They were able to keep the championship. The manager of the team, A.J. Hinch, was fired. The bench coach at the time, who had then gone on to the Red So The manager of the team, A.J. Hinch, was fired. The bench coach at the time, who had then gone on to the Red Sox, Alex Cora, was fired. Carlos Beltran, who had taken over the Mets as manager just that same offseason, he was fired. And Jeff Luno was fired. So probably the biggest and most impactful happening was the dismissal of four people across three different teams at that point. But the players themselves escaped punishment because Manfred believed that if he had tried to punish, that the union would have been able to overturn or vacate those

punishments. He thought that was going to be a mistake, that he would look weak. It turns out, in hindsight, that he looks weaker having not tried. The fact that he granted immunity at all is something that he's acknowledged publicly probably wasn't the right decision. But in a rare example of the buck stops here, Jeff Luno was fired, did face some consequences, although the investigation didn't find that he personally really knew a lot about the scheme.

Tell us what was discovered and what you think about that. The investigation appeared to be pretty thorough. There were tens of thousands of messages reviewed and different cell phones collected throughout the organization, emails, Slack, WhatsApp, different things, you name it. Major League Baseball's Department of Investigations got in there. What the commissioner's office found is that, you know, the general manager should have been aware of what was going on. that the general manager should have been aware of what was going on. There was not direct evidence or, I guess, conclusive evidence that Jeff Luno knew about the sign stealing. It is the case that Jeff Luno, along with every other relevant Astros person,

was instructed not to delete their cell phones because their cell phones were going to be reviewed. And Jeff Luno did delete his cell phone. He did that on the excuse that he had personal photos of his wife during childbirth that he didn't want the investigators to see. That is something that after the fact, no one can prove. I think it's a questionable look when your top executive is erasing their cell phone in the middle of a serious investigation like that. So if those were the consequences, were they enough? I think the outrage of fans in subsequent years has shown that it was not sufficient. Players on other teams, fans, it is the topic that I think it's still perhaps most often talked about is why didn't those guys

get anything? Why weren't they suspended? One of the challenges would have been figuring out how do you parcel out those suspensions? How many games do you give hitters versus pitchers? Is there a difference? What about the amount of time you spend on the team? You know, discipline is usually issued for individual cheating in baseball. It's performance enhancing drug use. If you use steroids, okay, you get an 80 game suspension. Well, what do you do when it's 25 guys at a given time and you've had, you know, a couple dozen more come through the team throughout the entire season? Rob Manfred made this choice that if the players' union had overturned or vacated these, that he would look weak and that that would be the worst

possible outcome. And the fury that fans and players had about the fact that the Astros weren't disciplined, I think has made clear, even to the commissioner in hindsight, that was not the right approach. But despite their immunity, these players in your reporting and the investigation were all party to the cheating. How did they justify what they were doing? I think the players justified cheating the way we see people in corporate America justify their corrupt practices. While we think someone else is doing it, or while we think someone else is doing it,

or perhaps we know someone else is doing it. And we need to do this to keep up. It's the only way we're going to succeed. And there was a warning issued late in 2017 because of the Red Sox and Yankees who had been caught with that lesser scheme at that time. And the Astros kept going. They kept going into the postseason, doing something more egregious than what the Red Sox and Yankees were doing. And so they were a runaway train in a lot of respects, but they're having success. Why would they stop it? I mean, there have been players who've talked about it in those terms. Why would you stop something that's working? What about players on other teams throughout the league? Once this is uncovered, surely they have feelings of their own. Oh, players on other teams were in disbelief. LeBron James was tweeting about it, a player from a totally different sport.

Look, there were some players who probably were expressing outrage when they themselves had done the lesser version of it. The Los Angeles Dodgers lost to the Astros in the 2017 World Series. If there is a team that you can look at and say probably has a claim as the most victimized by this, it might be them, it might be the New York Yankees, who the Astros beat in the previous round of the playoffs to get to the World Series. Players on those teams were outraged,

and those teams did not have perfectly clean hands because they had used their replay rooms in ways they shouldn't have. But there's no evidence that the Yankees or the Dodgers or any other team to this point, to this day, were doing something on the level of what the Astros were doing, conducting a cheating scheme entirely off the field without anybody on base, without even the pretense of pretending like this was something that was legal or even close to legal. So you've indicated that, and I understand it too, how difficult it may be to parcel out

punishment to players depending on how much they were involved in the scheme. But I'm wondering what you think could have been done, what should have been done to really put the true consequences into action for this scandal? The great failure here that's not often discussed is in the years prior, the commissioner's office, and to some degree, the individual front offices and teams, not realizing what could have come from handing these video tools to these hyper-competitive individuals, to not seeing that after baseball's great performance-enhancing drug scandal, the steroid scandals of the late 90s and early 2000s, that these are individuals who have given an opportunity to find an edge and gain an edge, we'll take it.

And the irony of it is that the commissioner of baseball, Rob Manfred, was MLB's leading figure handling the steroid scandal. And it's like he forgot what these players were capable of doing. And the league forgot its responsibility to protect the integrity of the sport. So where do we stand today in terms of the integrity of the sport, in sign-stealing and the use of technology? MLB, after the sign-stealing scandal, put in an electronic solution.

The catchers now have the option of wearing a wrist device that can communicate with the pitcher through a little headset communicate with the pitcher through a little headset and tell the pitcher what's coming. So you've eliminated the very traditional and in some ways iconic act in baseball of a catcher physically giving a sign that the catcher is no longer flashing one, two, or three or whatever signal before a pitch. In some instances, it is not mandatory, but that is in place. There are also restrictions around video usage during games.

The league issues iPads that if players are going to look at their swing or how they're throwing the ball during the game, they have to use these league-issued iPads in the dugout, and there are video delays in the clubhouse, the locker room, where players can sometimes go into during the game. So they've put in parameters to try to protect against this kind of cheating in the future. Of course, it is the case, as is often the case in baseball, that they did not erect the stop sign until there was an accident. Is it possible to find enough rules, enough regulations, enough firewalls to stop people from seeking an advantage?

enough firewalls to stop people from seeking an advantage. People are always going to cheat in baseball, outside of baseball, any sport, any corporate setting. There's always going to be somebody trying to get an edge. I don't think there's any doubt people are still cheating in some capacity in some way in baseball. Whether we know about it is a different question. And cheating in baseball is as old as the sport itself, from the Black Sox in 1919 to the drug abuse in the 80s and 90s. Why was this scandal such a big story? I think because in modern times, there haven't been quite as many team-wide cheating scandals. It's because the

Astros were already a controversial franchise, and they won the World Series. This wasn't just some team. This was the winning team, the supposed best team at the end of an incredibly long 162-game regular season preceded by a month and a half of spring training followed by the postseason. And it feels deceptive to people. you question whether what you're seeing is real. And there were rumors. They are not confirmed. But people started wondering, well, could players be going to the plate with buzzers to know what pitch is coming? And the reality is, unless you set up a TSA-style body scanner, you cannot prove that. I cannot tell you that nobody went to the plate with a buzzer. You can't prove the negative. The injury here, the saddest part of all of this is that people start asking those kinds of questions. You're sitting there doubting the veracity

of what you have watched on the field that night. And so what should be a joyous escape from the real world where you're looking at the green grass and eating hot dogs and keeping score becomes this game of back and forth-forth questions with your buddies. You think they were up to something? What were those guys doing? And that is the damage. They have damaged the trust that people have that what they are watching is on the level.

Well, Evan Drellick, thank you so much for speaking with me today on American Scandal. Thanks, Lindsay. That was my conversation with Evan Drellick, senior writer for The Athletic covering baseball. He's the author of the book, Winning Fixes Everything, How Baseball's Brightest Minds Created Sports' Biggest Mess. Wondery Plus subscribers can binge American Scandal Thank you. I read every one of them. I also have two other Wondery podcasts you might like, American History Tellers and Business Movers. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of American Scandal

early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. And before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. And to find out more about me, including my other podcasts, go to not that Lindsey Graham dot com. That's not that Lindsey Graham dot com. American Scandal is hosted, edited and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for Airship.

This episode was produced by Polly St Streiner. Our senior interview producer is Peter Arcuni. Sound design by Gabriel Gould. Music by Lindsey Graham. Produced by John Reed. Managing producer Olivia Fonte. Senior producer Andy Herman. Development by Stephanie Jens. And executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louis, and Erin O'Flaherty for Wondery.