American Scandal - Ruby Ridge Standoff | God, Guns, and Government: The Movement Shaping Modern Politics | 5

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

Sociologist Andrew Whitehead is a Christian worried about an influential force in modern politics: Christian nationalism. He joins Lindsay to discuss how the beliefs that shaped the Weaver family at Ruby Ridge are connected to the movement and how they’re fueling extremism and threatening democratic institutions today.Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletterListen to American Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season. Unlock exclusive early access by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today by visiting wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Want to get more from American Scandal? Subscribe to Wondry Plus for early access to new episodes, add free listening, and exclusive content you can't find anywhere else. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. From Wondery, I'm Lindsay Graham, and this is American Scandal. In August of 1992, federal agents surrounded a remote cabin in northern Idaho. Inside was Randy Weaver, a former soldier and Christian fundamentalist, along with his wife, children, and a family friend. The weavers have been living off the grid for years, preparing for Armageddon.

But what began as a minor weapons charge quickly spiraled into a violent standoff? By the time it ended, three people were dead. To many Americans, Ruby Ridge, was a disturbing example of reckless force used by the federal government. But for some, it confirmed a deeper truth that the state was corrupt, godless, and on the verge of tyranny. In their eyes, the weavers weren't criminals, they were prophets. Today, the ideas that shape the Weaver's worldview, like apocalyptic Christianity and a deep distrust of democratic institutions, are no longer confined to isolated cabins in the woods. Now they're at the heart of an influential political force, Christian nationalism, an ideology that has inspired violence in places like Charlottesville and Washington, D.C., and is increasingly shaping political platforms, court decisions, and campaigns across the country. My guest today is Andrew Whitehead.

He's a professor of sociology at Indiana University and the author of American Idolatry, how Christian nationalism betrays the gospel and threatens the church. Our conversation is next. Hey, I'm Cassie de Peckle, the host of Wondery's podcast Against the Odds. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who live to tell the tale. This month, we're bringing back a fan favorite season. In 1914, former President Teddy Roosevelt mounts a dangerous expedition to map an unexplored river in the Amazon, known as the River of Doubt.

He, his son, Kermit, and the rest of their team face dangerous rapids, hunger, and even murder from within their ranks. They have no idea how long it will take to reach the end of the river. And as each day passes, the perils of the jungle bring them closer to death. Follow against the odds on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge the entire season ad-free right now, only on Wondery Plus. Start your free trial in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify today. Business Wars gives you a front row seat to the biggest moments in business and how they shape our world.

From boardroom blowups to strategies gone wrong. These are the stories behind the headlines. Listen to Business Wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Andrew Whitehead. Welcome to American Scandal. Thank you for having me. Now, you define Christian nationalism as a cultural framework that idealizes and advocates for a particular expression of Christianity within American civic life. Let's break that down a bit.

What is this particular expression of Christianity? Yeah, that is the really important part of the definition of Christian nationalism because it highlights that there are hundreds and thousands, really, of expressions of Christianity. So the Christianity of Christian nationalism, it does refer to some of the historic orthodox theological beliefs of Christianity that most of us are familiar with, but it also includes what I like to call cultural baggage, like a desire for traditionalist social hierarchies, a comfort with authoritarian social control, strong ethno-racial boundaries around national identity, and then also a sense of populism and conspiratorial thinking that this nation is being taken away. And so what we find over and over empirically is Christian nationalism is focused on benefiting the us and the we at the detriment of others, at the detriment of the marginalized. And it's that cultural baggage that gets intertwined with the Christianity of Christian nationalism that really highlights this particular expression. So turning to the subject of this series, the Weavers, would you say that their beliefs about things like the coming apocalypse, government betrayal, these sort of, the things reflect strains of Christian nationalist thinking? Yeah, I think that even more so in the present day, we find strains of, especially

conspiratorial thinking, really being present and rising up within the Christianity of Christian nationalism. And so when we look at specific cases like the Weavers and the conspiratorial thinking that kind of undergirds a lot of what took place and they were all about, we do find Americans that embrace Christian nationalism do align with that. So there are a number of studies that highlight folks that strongly embrace Christian nationalism are more likely to embrace various conspiratorial beliefs, that the government is hiding something about, let's say, the JFK assassination or the moon landing. But what we also find is that when we give folks a list of conspiratorial beliefs that they

think the government might be hiding information about, and then we include a conspiratorial belief in that list that is made up by the researchers. So it's not something that anybody has heard of before. We find Americans who embrace Christian nationalism are also more likely to believe the government is hiding something about a conspiracy belief that is literally made up. And so this highlights that as new conspiratorial beliefs come on the market, these folks are ready and willing to embrace that the government or elites are hiding something about this, the susceptibility to suggestion where, you know, do we have evidence? Let's say that the 2020 election was stolen. No, there is no evidence. But again, very open to the suggestion that there were improprieties or

there were voting machines that were being taken over. And even today, some of the leaders of that movement saying these voting machines are even controlled by Satan, which again is not anything that can be proven or disproven, but open to that belief that there are these shadowy forces that are pushing against the real, the good Americans. And I think it's important to point out, too, that as we're looking at the current context of Americans that maybe strongly embrace Christian nationalism, they are and might be influenced by the stories and narratives

and experiences of the Weaver family or others like them who they believe are folks that were just trying to live their lives but then were wrongly harmed by the government or whatever. whatever else. And so now we have to get involved. And so even that story has probably shifted some of the narratives within Christian nationalism in the United States. One of the founding fictions, perhaps, of Christian nationalism is, of course, the idea that this country was founded as a Christian nation. Where did that idea come from? Yeah, so it has a long history in American thought. And in many ways, depending on how we define

Christian nation, we have varying levels of evidence for whether that's true or not. And so I think that's what makes it really difficult to nail down. Because if we're looking at Christian nation and defining it as are most of the people here generally Christian, well then for much of the history of the United States and even today, yeah, a majority, over 50% of people are a part of some Christian tradition. But if we're talking about the founding documents are explicitly Christian, we don't have any evidence of that as the Declaration of Independence never mentions Jesus or the Constitution doesn't even mention God. But what we have over time is there are folks who are intent on creating that narrative and creating, in many ways, false representations of our founding documents or the founding fathers to create a narrative that appeals to folks that want that to be true. And so one example of this is David Barton and his group wall builders in Texas. So he's a political operative. And for years and years, he has worked to create this narrative that. that the founding fathers, literally all of them, were evangelical, just like we see folks today, that the founding documents were explicitly Christian, all of these things. And that has

become really powerful on the right, both politically and culturally. And so that narrative has really stuck with us. There are many folks that want that to be true, believe it to be true. And so they're willing to overlook what historians have found in favor of, again, this political operative that is telling them something that they would kind of want to be true. And so we know there are folks that are working to create that narrative and undergird it because they can build off of that and say, well, if this country was a Christian nation, then we need to push it forward towards these, again, quote-unquote Christian ends that we see for the nation.

This may be an unfair question because I'm asking you to elaborate on someone's motives. But for those people who do push this notion that America is a Christian nation, do you believe that there's a cynicism in it, that they have political goals that they are trying to achieve with this fabricated narrative, or is it more an instance of perhaps wish fulfillment or motivated reasoning? You know, I think it's really both at work. And I think those circles overlap, but they're not one in the same as you're pointing out. I do think that there are folks that truly believe this narrative to be true. And some of it might be motivated reasoning because they want, you know, so much of their identity and history and past is wrapped up in this belief. To set that aside is really difficult. And I do think there are folks who are more cynical where I don't think they're true believers at all, but they recognize the power of that rhetoric. They recognize what that can do for them in the political sphere to motivate folks. What they share, though, is that the outcomes generally align, right? They want a country that privileges a particular group of people, generally white, natural-born citizens who align with a traditional social ethic around gender and sexuality.

They want this country to serve those folks most easily and best with other folks falling in line behind. But these are the people that should have their hands on the levers of power. And so I think whether it is true believers or more cynical users of the rhetoric, their end goal aligns. And I think that's what brings them together and makes them such a powerful political and social force. Now, you mentioned the phrase white natural-born citizens. Going back to the Weavers, in the 1980s, they flirted with Christian identity, a religion of many white separatist groups that holds that Aryans are God's chosen people. Is race also embedded in Christian nationalism? Yeah, so we find over and over, as we survey the American public, Americans who embrace Christian nationalism, when they hear Christian nation, in that word Christian, it isn't, again, just pointing to Orthodox Christian beliefs, but it is activating racialized views of who is the ideal American, a true American citizen.

And so when they're thinking of a Christian nation, in many ways, they're imagining a white Christian nation. And so race is fundamentally intertwined with this imagination of a Christian nation. And we find over and over that the more we embrace Christian nationalism, the more likely they are to believe that certain inequalities based on race across the United States, whether it's the criminal justice system or access to economic mobility or education, or health care, those folks that embrace Christian nationalism are more likely to say to hold racist views in all those different areas. And so, again, when we look at it historically too, we see that as Christianity came to these shores, even before the founding of the United States, we see that these ideas of what is Christian and good and the ideas of race and color of the skin were really melded

it together to where a good American or a good citizen was Christian and white, but black or brown, whether the slaves that they brought with them or the indigenous populations that they encountered and had to move off the land. These were folks that did not represent the good, did not represent Christian. And so, again, that underscored what they saw is their right to take control of this land and these people. It goes that far back and has been a common thread in this understanding of what is a Christian nation and who are good Christians. In addition to their religious beliefs, the Weavers believe strongly in self-reliance and taking care of themselves

and not relying on the government and, in fact, being quite skeptical of the government. Do you see any of those strains in Christian nationalism, too? Yeah, so when we look at Christian nationalism, there are elements of kind of economic views tied up with that, particularly this devotion to capitalism and neoliberal economic values. And it's tied up with this idea of Americans as individuals, as masters of their own destiny, and this desire to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and do what is necessary to make your way forward. So one example is the book written by Kevin Cruz called One Nation Under God.

And he's looking at how, in his argument, corporate America, created Christian America. So we had these wealthy businessmen who were afraid of the New Deal and these what they called Social, policies that were going to harm their newspaper empires or business empires. And so they lifted up these voices of Christians like Billy Graham was part of this to say that capitalism is God's perfectly designed way for a nation to meet its economic needs. And so we should be afraid of socialism or anything else that moves against that. And so the Christian nationalism that we see come to the is really focused on this idea that you need to be a capitalist. And that led into the red scare of the 50s and this fear of communism.

And so as we look at Christian nationalism through the 20th century and even into today, there are economic principles tied up in that. And so this underscores some of the discomfort that Americans who embrace Christian nationalism might have with any sort of federal subsidy or program that helps, lift up those who are poor or in need of health insurance or anything else because they think that it is all about the individual doing what is necessary rather than caring for all who are part of the collective. So clearly some aspects of Christian nationalism can be traced back decades or even centuries. But when did the movement of today really start to emerge? Yeah, I think the current

iteration that we're experiencing around Christian nationalism really generates from the 1970s. And So there were political and religious leaders on the right who in the 70s were looking around and recognizing that there was dramatic, social, cultural, and demographic change happening. Really, as a result of the 1960s, with the civil rights movement, the gender and sexual revolution, all of those things. And so they were looking around them and they were recognizing that this country, and their beliefs of what this country is and is all about, were no longer taken for granted. And when that started to happen, they recognized, well, we have to, you know,

insert ourselves into the political and social, cultural system to make a case for this is who this country is and has always been, and where it should go and how we should get there. And that's where the current iteration of Christian nationalism with the rise of the moral majority and those groups really came on the hold. So if the most recent version started in the 1970s, could you give us a quick history of how it's modernized to today? Yeah, I think one of the ways that it's really modernized is, again, highlighting this comfort with authoritarian social control, where folks are more and more comfortable setting aside what we've always believed to be these norms of democracy, of many voices at the table coming together. We see in this current iteration that as long as democracy was giving them the results that they desired, they were fine with it. But as we've moved into, and again, Trump coming on the scene, we see more and more that they're absolutely fine

setting aside democracy and setting aside any kind of semblance of the right of all people in the U.S. to vote, to take part in the democratic process. They're okay with setting that aside because, again, they believe that these outcomes that God desires, right? So this vision for the United States is legitimated in the will of the Christian God, well, then nothing should stay in their way, even democracy. And so I think that's something that is quite new. I think the threads were there for a long time, but that's something that is quite new. And again, I think that's because of the growing social and demographic and religious diversity of the nation has increased. They recognize more and more that numbers in a sense

are not on their side. And so if democracy in a pluralistic democratic society won't allow them to enact this vision for the country, they're willing to set that aside. Searchlight Pictures presents the Roses, only in theaters, August 29. From the director of Meet the Parents and the writer of Poor Things comes the Roses. Starring Academy Award winner Olivia Coleman,

Academy Award nominee Benedict Cumberbatch, Andy Samburg, Kate McKinnon, and Alison Janney. A hilarious new comedy filled with drama, excitement, and a little bit of hatred, proving that marriage isn't always a bed of roses. See The Roses, only in theaters August 29th. The town of Agda in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex. But lately, life on the coast, has taken a strange turn.

The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption. His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant. Then there's a mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting. I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos. As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.

Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson and journalist Leo Schick for the Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption and magic. Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mayor exclusively and ad free right now on Wondry Plus. Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or the Wondry app. Let's talk about how influential Christian nationalism is today. It seems more prominent than ever, but would you say that these beliefs are becoming more mainstream? When we're looking at Christian nationalism and measuring it across the American public, what we find is that it is not growing.

There are not more Americans embracing Christian nationalism now than ever before. In fact, what we find is probably shrinking slightly that over the last 10 or 15 years, there are slightly fewer people who strongly embrace Christian nationalism than before. And so looking at that, we might think, well, this isn't any more influential. It's actually getting smaller. But what we find is actually the rhetoric and the salience of this cultural framework is much more present. So if we look at the first term of the Trump administration and then while he was not in office during the Biden administration and now back in office, Christian nationalism and those narratives have been at the forefront of Trump.

and others in his orbit as they try to understand and make a case for who this country is and what it should all be about. It was always there with prior Republican presidents, but Donald Trump and those around him have leaned into that rhetoric even more. And then also, what we find is as this group actually grows smaller, as they recognize, you know, these beliefs of Christian nationalism are no longer as broadly held by other Americans. They recognize, well, this is what actually makes us different. And so if we're going to protect this country, we have to ensure that we are the remnant that is doing everything we can to bring this nation back. And so it's kind of this flip, where they may not be larger in numbers, but the salience of

Christian nationalism is even stronger, and we find over and over that they're actually really politically engaged. Do you think that's this increase in salience and engagement as an artifact of their decreasing size that allows more people to embrace the term Christian nationalist. A few years ago, many would have distanced themselves from that term. Yeah, I think what it has done is it's kind of brought it to the fore where we see people feeling like they do have to place themselves on one side of the line or other. And so we have folks like Marjorie Taylor Green or Josh Hawley, right, folks that are serving in the U.S. House or in the Senate, who are adopting the term for themselves and saying,

yes, I'm a Christian nationalist. And I should note that they're redefining it in a way that suits them. So they're not using the empirically supported definition that social scientists like myself use. But they're saying, yeah, we're Christian nationalists. And all it means is that we love Jesus and we love this country. Again, that's not what Christian nationalism is, but they're adopting that term. But then we see folks on the other side who are saying, you know, I'm maybe even Christian, and I think Christianity is important, but I'm definitely not a Christian nationalist

as it's been defined or that we're showing what it is. And so we see folks, again, distancing themselves from it. So I think this has led to perhaps why we see the numbers of those that strongly embrace Christian nationalism declining slightly over the years as folks kind of learn what it's about and say, no, I'm not about that. But then we have folks who maybe have always strongly embraced it, more willing to say, yeah, this is who we are and this is what we're all about. And they're willing to identify with that term.

This is interesting to me the adoption of the label Christian nationalism, but at the same moment redefining it so it seems innocuous. How else has the political rhetoric been influenced or changed to kind of nod at Christian nationalism? What we find with Christian nationalism is that it operates at some different levels. So my colleague Sam Perry, who I co-authored our first book on Christian nationalism with, he had an article that he published recently where he was looking at some of this politicized rhetoric around Christian nationalism, and he identified it as in some ways it does operate as a dog whistle, where folks that use it, the political operatives that use it, they know that the audiences who are most primed to hear these words as they want them to be heard

are going to be drawn to it, right? Something that maybe other groups might miss, but those they're speaking to are going to hear it. But he also shows and points out how this rhetoric also operates as a mating call where it is out there and everybody knows what it's about, but this is the stuff that this group that they want to see activated politically is wanting to hear, is ready to hear, and that will draw them to their side and to get them politically motivated. And so I think that's where, again, we may have politicians that are true believers in Christian nationalism. We may have some that just recognize the power of the rhetoric, but the outcomes are the same. The words they use, the rhetoric they use, that is drawing.

in these groups and getting them motivated to get out to vote to again defend their way of life because they believe that the very soul of the nation is at stake. I'm wondering if you could give us some examples of this specific rhetoric because it runs the risk of being repugnant to the out group, even if it is a mating call in quotes for the in-group. Yeah, so there are a lot of different examples, you know, one that we see more recently and that folks are talking about and that has kind of took place. leading up to the 2024 election, is rhetoric around the idea that Christians are a persecuted

minority. So we see Trump who is speaking to groups of Christians leading up to the election and then even after saying, you know, America, the elites, the academics, the politicians, the media, all of these groups, they hate Christians, they hate you, they hate your way of life. And you need someone who is going to defend you. And he's saying, I will defend you. I will defend way of life. We're going to defend God. We're going to defend Christianity. We're going to make it okay to be Christian again. When in all reality, Christianity is not under attack. The folks that embrace this worldview or this religion can live here freely, worship here freely. But they recognize that he's talking about a particular type of Christian, right? He's not talking about

Reverend William Barber's flavor of Christianity, more progressive form of Christianity. He's talking about a politically, religiously conservative expression of Christianity that aligns in many ways with Christian nationalism. And so that's an example of this rhetoric that is right out in front, that they know what it's about who he's speaking to, but it carries with it all of this rhetorical weight because they can read into what he's saying about Christianity being under attack or persecuted and the fact that he's speaking to this group specifically. So that's Christian nationalism as it's reflected in. political rhetoric, but how is it reflected in political policy? What are some examples of

Christian nationalist legislation you might see on local or national levels? Yeah, so we see a number of different aspects of this. In many ways, I think, one of the more helpful guides to follow, and as journalists and others are tracking this, is Project 2025. And so this is, you know, a whole kind of roadmap for conservative, political views of how the federal government should operate, the types of things that they should be doing. And there were a lot of groups that were a part of the writing of Project 2025. And some of the people and the groups were explicitly those that embrace this idea of Christian nationalism. One example is Russell who leads the office in management of the budget, did that in the first term for Trump and is doing

that again. And so some of the things that they highlight policy-wise align with those cultural aspects of the Christianity of Christian nationalism. So for one example, looking at traditionalist social hierarchies, right? So this is the view that the United States should be ordered where men lead, women support, and follow. Marriage is heterosexual between a man and a woman, and they're committed to bearing children. So this is how society should be structured. And so when we look at Project 2025 or a number of the executive orders that Trump signed and continues to sign, they do focus on gender and sexuality, right? So there was one that was saying that gender means a man and a woman, and that's it. It's a binary, right? And so we can see that

this is policy aimed at defining gender according to this desire for a traditional social hierarchy. We see executive orders that are banning transgender Americans from serving in the military. Again, that there are only two genders. There's only heterosexuality should be. elevated, and folks that do not align with that should not have access to the civil benefits, the opportunities available to others Americans. And so those are just a couple within one of the cultural aspects of Christian nationalism. But when we look at strict ethno-racial boundaries, right, we see them banning a number of books from the U.S. Naval Academy that are engaging with this idea of racial inequality in America and American history. So here again,

we see them looking at the social context and discourse and saying that we want to align it all with this very particular view of what is a Christian nation and what should that look like. Now, if there is a figurehead of the movement by many metrics, Donald Trump is not a prototypical evangelical Christian, but he's been embraced by this group, even called God's chosen leader. How do we explain this dynamic? Yeah, I think it actually is such a great example of the power of Christian nationalism as a cultural framework because it isn't about the personal religiosity or piety of the leader like Donald Trump. In fact, whether he's individually

religious or pious really doesn't matter. And we see this over and over in the words of those that are part of this movement where they say, hey, we're not electing a pastor in chief. We're electing a commander in chief. We want a person who will punch the bully, right, on the playground, as they've said. They want somebody who will fight for them. And so it isn't about necessarily representing the dictates of the Christian faith. It's about gaining access to and maintaining privilege access to power. And if Donald Trump, however he might present himself individually, allows us to have privilege access to power, then we are on board. And the extent that maybe he even cuts against some of these historic Christian beliefs about morality or piety

is fine, right? We are on board with him because, again, he allows us to push forward some of the designs we have for this country because we want power, and that's what it comes down to. Returning to the events at Ruby Ridge, they inspired infamously the Oklahoma City bombings and have become something of a founding myth for many far-right militia groups since. It seems like one of the primary lessons that militia groups took out of the events at Ruby Ridge was that violence is necessary and even justified? Yes, I do think that's true. And it's something that is also a thread that runs through Christian nationalism as we look at it historically, but also in the minds of Americans today.

So in one of the books that I wrote, I highlight the three idols of Christian nationalism, power, fear or sense of threat, and then violence. And so when a group is intent on maintaining privileged access to power, and that aligns, with this distinct understanding of us versus them and the fear and sense of threat that they are going to come take our power or our rights as Americans, then violence is a natural result because the only way to defend our rights to power that benefits us is to enact violence on them. So whether it is the threat of violence or actually through violence, both of those are just fine. And many of the narratives align with this understanding of violence in the Christian scriptures, whether it's the old or even the New Testament, where they're able to say,

well, at various times, God or God's people have had to resort to violence in order to defend their rights of who they are. And so even as we survey the American public, we see greater comfort with different forms of violence, whether it's state sanctioned violence, like capital punishment for wrongdoers, or the fact that they believe true American patriots may have. have to resort to violence in order to set things right. If an election does not go their way, they may have to work outside of the political processes, may have to just enact violence in order to make the right thing happen. So we saw that on January 6th, and we continue to see that as a significant thread. And again, the minority of Americans that strongly embrace Christian

nationalism, but it is something that they are willing to engage in and with. And so I think that presents a significant threat when we look at the group as a whole across the United States, but then, too, within some of these right-wing conspiratorially minded militia groups. What's the extent of the overlap between these militia groups and Christian nationalism? It's a really good question. I think one that first, you know, I don't have really good generalizable data for what we can see, anecdotally at least, let's look at January 6th. We see some of these groups that embrace Christian nationalism, they're on January 6th or as they respond to it, finding common cause with some of those more militia-minded right-wing groups like the

proud boys, where, you know, some of the proud boys and the speeches that they make maybe refer to this nation as a Christian nation, maybe not. But those groups that do see this nation as a Christian nation are willing to interact with and overlap with some of those folks because they believe that those right-being more malicious-minded groups are in common cause and see the nation as they see it. So one example is a worship leader, Sean Fute, who, you know, was leading these worship rallies during COVID-19 against, you know, the orders of different cities and states. And he had proud boys who were providing, quote, unquote, security at those events.

And so they are different groups, but they see alignment in and common. cause in the desires that they see for who this nation is and what it's all about. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondry's podcast Against the Outs. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who live to tell the tale, and sometimes we get to hear from survivors themselves, in their own words. On our next season, it's May 23. Competitive swimmer, Allie Truitt, has just graduated from Yale and completed her first marathon.

But a few days after graduation, Allie is snorkeling in the Caribbean when suddenly she's attacked by a shark and finds herself in a fight for her life. Ali's epic journey to reclaim her love of the water pushes her further than she could have ever imagined all the way to the Paris Paralympics. Follow against the odds on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge the entire season ad-free right now only on Wondery Plus. Start your free trial in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify today. Before the Internet ruled our lives, AOL brought America online with email and instant message. By 2000, AOL was so powerful. It bought Media Giant Time Warner.

This was a deal that was supposed to bring us into the future. revolutionized media, but instead it became one of the messiest corporate disasters in history. So what went wrong? The dot-com crash, culture clashes, or something deeper? Business Wars gives you a front-row seat to the biggest moments in business and how they shape our world, because when your flight perks disappear, your favorite restaurant chain goes bankrupt or new tech threatens to reshape everything overnight, you can bet there's a deeper story behind the headlines. Make sure to follow business wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

And you can binge all episodes of business wars, the AOL Time Warner disaster, early and ad-free, right now on Wondery Plus. You write that ultimately Christian nationalism is bad for democracy. Given its rise in influence or at least prominence, where is this movement going? That's a really good question and one that is always difficult to see. But I think there's at least one aspect that we know will continue. And so as we gather data on Americans that embrace Christian nationalism, they are very committed and comfortable with this idea that democracy, as long as it returns results that they agree with or in line with their desires is fine. But the extent that it doesn't, they're willing to set that aside. And so I think what we're going to see in the coming years is a continuation of a lot more centralization of power within the executive branch because we want to see our president being able to do whatever he wants to do. Now, obviously, if a Democrat was in office, they wouldn't want that centralization of power. So that just underscores the comfort of changing the rules in such a way that benefits them in order to see the outcomes that they want. or if we look at the separation of powers, as it's described in the Constitution, where Congress has the right responsibility to levy taxes and collect duties and all of those things, well, we see in the current moment that Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House even, has said, you know, it's probably great that we just let the President do what he wants here. So again, it's an abdication of what the Constitution lays out to see the centralization of power where they desire. And so these are

are signals already of setting aside democracy and our constitutionally defined separation of powers in order to see the outcomes that they want. And so that is going to continue. And I think in many ways it's going to come down to whether this is a nation that we define as for all people or to benefit only a particular group of people. And I think that's what's under discussion in the coming years. But even as Christian nationalists become more bold in their aspirations of power, you've mentioned that their numbers are shrinking. How does this influence the future? Yeah. So I think what this highlights, though, too, is that when we look at, let's say, the breakdown of the U.S. Congress, it is overwhelmingly Protestant and Christian, overwhelmingly male and white. And so even though across the population, we might see those numbers dwindling. When we look at those with access to power, they have more people in those seats of power. And so that allows the movement to obviously continue on further, because It isn't just the size of the movement, but whether you have access to the levers, right, that continue to privilege and benefit your social group.

And then I think, too, as Americans who strongly embrace Christian nationalism, they may shrink in size that way of defining themselves, that identity becomes even more salient. So when they go to interact in their communities or to vote or to figure out who to support in another election or politically, they're thinking in terms of the fact that they are the remnant. They are the last reserves of this way of life. And so they have to act and they have to act now. And so that provides a lot of political motivation. And in many ways, we'll align them with whoever they believe provides them the best chance at defending that way of life. And so the size of the group is important. But what really matters is do they have access to the levers of power, which they do, and will they act according to it? And we're finding that they will.

You wrote your book, American Adolatry, for Christians primarily. What do you hope they take from it? My greatest hope is that folks that read the book will see clearly what Christian nationalism is and being able to draw historically the threads of where we are today and how those seeds were planted decades and centuries ago. But what I want them to see is that the Christianity of Christian nationalism is not the only option, that there are other expressions of Christianity that allow them to continue in their faith, but that don't carry the cultural baggage that Christian nationalism has when we're talking about diversity, whether it's racial or ethnic or how we treat immigrants and those coming to this nation in search of a better life, that the Christian Christian nationalism has a fear of those groups. wants to harm those groups into the future, but you can follow a Christianity that doesn't carry that cultural baggage. And so one of the things that I've learned even since writing the book that I hope gives people encouragement as well is that there are many Christians who are on this journey, right? Understanding that their faith is important to them, but they don't want it to be represented only by those who want to have power over everybody else and only see one way

forward where they have all the power, that there are many American Christians who want to live out their faith and maybe have political disagreements as well among themselves, but want to do it in a way that doesn't harm or silence those around them, that they want to live in community with others, and that we can all be pushing for a common cause and a common good where everyone in America can flourish, that this is a nation that really is for all its citizens and not just a chosen few. I'm glad you mentioned the majority of Christians who don't participate in Christian nationalism, but what we haven't talked about is any opposition, organized opposition to Christian nationalism. Who are some of the people and groups that are fighting this movement? Yeah, so there are a

number of groups and people that are part of this. So we have scholars and academics like myself who are writing this. We have pastors like a pastor friend of mine who is in Arizona with a group of pastors that he's surrounded and brought together where they're trying to think of and see Americans who embrace Christian nationalism as a mission field. And they see, you know, folks who have embraced that as people that they try to reach with the gospel even, to say that there are different ways of being Christian and even patriotic and that you don't have to embrace this. We see groups like Christians against Christian nationalism that are on the floor and working towards that, both common good, which is a group.

in Minnesota, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. And so there's a number of groups that are engaged with this work and saying that there are better ways to be American citizens, to engage in your faith or no faith at all in the political process and to be active as a citizen that essentially are trying to defend this idea of, we are a country of many different types of people. And it isn't just the boundary lines of our nation that make us Americans, but this commitment to an ideal that even though we may have different beliefs that we hold dear, we value each other and the human dignity of everyone to be able to participate and play a part. And that commitment to a pluralistic democratic society, I think, is key.

And so these are some of the groups, and there are many others that we see coming on the floor and are pushing for that type of future. Andrew Whitehead. Thank you so much for talking with me on American Scandal. It's been really great at talking with you. I really appreciate it. That was my conversation with sociologist and author Andrew Whitehead. His book American Adolatry is out now. From Wondering, this is episode five of our series on the Ruby Ridge Standoff for American Scan.

In our next series, at the height of the Vietnam War, American soldiers launched an assault on a suspected stronghold of their communist enemy, the Viet Cong. They found those soldiers only hundreds. of civilians, but what followed was still a brutal rampage that lasted for hours. At first, this war crime was covered up by the U.S. Army, but whistleblowers and reporters eventually reveal the truth, and the world learned the full horror of the massacre in the village of Mi Lai. If you're enjoying American scandal, you can unlock exclusive seasons on Wondry Plus. Binge new season first and listen completely ad-free when you join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a survey at Wondry.com slash survey. American Scandal is hosted, edited and executive produced by me, Lindsay Graham for Airship. Audio editing by Christian Peraga, sound design by Gabriel Gould, supervising sound designer Matthew Filler, music by Thrum. This episode was produced by John Reed, managing. producer Emily Burke. Development by Stephanie Jens. Senior producers Andy Beckerman and Andy Herman. Executive producers are William Simpson for airship and Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louis, and Aaron O'Flaherty for Wondering. In 1925, 18-year-old Howard Hughes inherited a fortune, and he wasted no time putting it to use. With a million

dollars burning a hole in his pocket, he had to West, determined to conquer America's booming new capital of entertainment, Hollywood. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, host of Wondry Show Business Movers. We tell the true stories of business leaders who risked it all, the critical moments that define their journey, and the ideas that transform the way we live our lives. In our latest series, Howard Hughes clashes with Hollywood's power players as he fights to see his name in lights. But Howard has deep pockets and even deeper ambitions, and he revolutionizes the movie

business by breaking rules and spending big, because for Howard, the best way to the level Hollywood's playing field is to explode the entire industry. Follow business movers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes of business movers early and add free right now by joining Wondery Plus.