American Thought Leaders - Against the Grain: The NBA Player Who Refused to Kneel or Get the Shot | Jonathan Isaac

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

NBA player Jonathan Isaac is known not just for his talent on the court, but for his convictions and outspoken faith. He’s the author of the 2022 best-selling memoir “Why I Stand.”As a youth, he struggled with anxiety—but a chance encounter in an elevator with the man who would later become his pastor changed the course of his life.Faith helped him triumph over his battle with anxiety, but it also later put him at the center of a national debate. After George Floyd’s death, at the height of the Black Lives Matter movement, most NBA players chose to kneel during the national anthem. But Isaac chose to stand. Later, his decision to decline the COVID-19 vaccines also drew intense media scrutiny.In this episode, he shares his story, his convictions, his choices and why he made them, and what it means to believe in something bigger than yourself.Now, through his UNITUS shoe line, Isaac shares Bible verses and a message of hope.Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

I said, fellas, I'm not going to kneel, and I'm not going to wear that t-shirt. Jonathan Isaac is one of the NBA's most talked-about players, not just for his defensive play on the court, but for the moment he stood when everyone else kneeled during the national anthem. Before games, I'd be extremely anxious, and that's happened all through high school, the number one player in the state of Florida and college, into the NBA. He recalls some pivotal moments in his journey. It's been my faith that has helped me, you know, for the moment. about finding my identity in Christ and just being okay with who I am.

That conviction led him to launch his own shoe line, Unitas. Which was and is the first NBA signature sneaker with visible Bible verses on the outside. In this episode, Jonathan shares how his faith has shaped his life and career. This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Yanya Kellick. Jonathan Isaac, so good to have you on American Thought Leaders. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Let's go back a bit into the past. I've known about you for a while. I started reading about your background and kind of where you've come from. And I realized that you had a similar affliction or issue that I did as a kid as a kid. And that was anxiety is something you suffered from. And you dealt with it with basketball. Okay, so tell me a little bit about those early years. I grew up in Bronx, New York, my dad, my mom, four brothers, and one sister. And I would say when I was in New York, I didn't really have, you know, that issue of anxiety

or really like self-consciousness about who I was, did I fit in, all those different things. I was a pretty quiet kid, but we just loved it, you know. We were in New York. We had friends and we would play around in the neighborhood. It was just really normal, I would say. And then my parents ended up splitting up. Then I went from Bronx, New York to Naples, Florida. And that's when really everything changed.

So I went from a predominantly black community, Latino, to prominently white. And that's when, I think that was the first time in my life that I felt self-conscious. I remember really trying to make friends at the new school. And my form of making friends was horse play. And I'm a big kid. I was tall, and these little white kids. And my form of playing around was like child endangerment, you know, to them. And so I got in trouble quite a bit.

One time my mom got called to the office and the principal was like, we can't have your son endangering the lives of the early students. And she's just like, he doesn't mean it. Like, this is just, you know, how he expresses himself whatsoever. And that was the first time that I was like, oh, my goodness, like, I'm not the way that I perceive myself. Like, I'm actually a danger. and I need to kind of walk on eggshells and almost fight for the approval and the love for the people around me.

And so I tried to do everything. I was a class clown. I was always trying to make jokes. Just trying my best to fit in and make friends. And basketball was the thing that really opened the door to that. As I fell in love with basketball and started to get better, that's when I started receiving validation from my peers and the girls and everything like that. And so, but it also created in me this, you know, this rollercoaster of emotions where I really wanted to play well.

I really wanted to do well. And I always felt like if I didn't, I was going to lose that validation and affirmation from other people. And so before games, I'd be extremely anxious. And that's happened all through high school, the number one player in the state of Florida and college into the NBA. And it's been, you know, an ongoing thing. that I've worked through. And it's been my faith that has helped me for the most about finding

my identity in Christ and just being okay with who I am. You know, something that strikes me about basketball. I mean, whatever that, you know, physicality that you were expressing, you know, as a kid that was actually getting you into trouble, probably on the basketball court. That was, like, a bit of a benefit. For sure. I kind of wish I still, because I kind of tamed that, you know, even going into basketball, so I became this very shy, you know, insecure guy, even though I was growing in talent. And so I probably, I probably wish I would have stayed in New York to play basketball for my whole life, because then I would have, you know, came about a little differently. So your process is actually becoming more out there, I guess, more sort of, I don't know,

more aggressive? Is there the right term? I think, you know, it's probably, sounds a little bad, but yeah, I think as I went through that whole process, it was more like I became very inward focused and, you know, always trying to pull back, always trying to, you know, decide on whether what I was going to say or do how it would affect the people around me. How would they then perceive me? And so getting out of that or working to get out of that has produced a little more just natural aggressiveness, you know, just being outward and not so inward focused. It's fascinating, a parallel. You know, we have some parallel experiences that I don't really ever talk about, you know, here we go.

But so at some point you started getting good. Right, right. I mean, I think you were number one in Florida, right? And so, you know, at this point, you know, there's more girls, more media now, right? People are starting to appreciate, maybe appreciate a little too much. you know, just kind of tell me about that process and how you reacted to it. It was awful, you know, because it was like, it was just so, just again, that roller coaster of emotions where I'm being recognized for this player that I am. Inside, I don't feel like I'm a really great player,

but I'm the number one player in the state of Florida, and I'm receiving this validation, and I love it, but at the same time I don't want to lose it. and I felt like any mistake that I would make or could make would cause people not to love me anymore or not care for me anymore. And so I was just always so nervous. I remember having an interview in high school, I think it was for like USA basketball, and I was being interviewed by a woman.

And she asked me a question and I said, yes, sir. Just because I was so like tense and nervous and not even listening to her, and I've had a couple interviews like that. And so it was, it was difficult. You know, it was pretty difficult growing up and trying to navigate, you know, becoming a really good player in basketball and the kind of internal emotional turmoil that I was going through. You know, I was just, I was reminded of something, you know, someone that I've admired for a long time and kind of follow his Denzel Washington. And he kind of, he had this, he said something like fame is a monster, right? That's a kind of something that resonated with me.

Not that I've had to deal with a ton of. fame. But how do you react to that? I think it's true. You know, I think it's humans, it's, it's almost like we're not, we're not built for it. We're not build and we're really aren't manufactured in that way to be receivers of praise and, and, you know, everybody loving it because it just, it messes with us about our, you know, the way that we view ourselves. It's easy to become prideful. It's easy to become, you know, cocky or whatnot. But then you just kind of lose yourself in it.

And we've seen, you know, a lot of celebrities and people who have, you know, administered great fame to them how it really does distort reality and, you know, causes a lot of breakdowns. You know, of course, faith is very important to you. Absolutely. Right? Were you, as this fame was starting to build, were you looking at? for some way to deal with it or were you kind of relishing in the fame or was there some critical moment where you felt okay I have to change something yes

and no you know I didn't I didn't really really become a Christian until I got to the NBA but I grew up in the church and so I had you know somewhat of a foundation and throughout the course of all this I was always kind of like falling back on it to where you know if everything was going great I was like I kind of want to be as far away from that as possible and just live my life and be like everybody else. But then if any hard times hit, any, you know, bad games or just I was really dealing with that anxiety, I'd be in church.

And so I kind of always saw it as, you know, helpful, but just not in alignment with what I wanted in life. I wanted to be more liked and to be more praised and to be like the players that were around me, you know. So I wanted to experience that. I didn't really come to faith until I got to the NBA. And how did that happen? Yeah, no, it's a dope story.

So I got drafted to Orlando, and I'm getting into my new place, and I meet a guy on an elevator, and he says to me, I can tell you how to be great. And I said, how? And he said, you have to know Jesus. And I was like, man, I know Jesus. Me and him are close, you know, but I wasn't living that way. You know, when I got to the NBA, I was like, look, I want to experience everything that the NBA has to offer. And I did.

But for something really deep inside me kind of said, I thought this would be funner or better. It's really not all that is cracked up to be. And at one point being out of the league and looking at all these guys and thinking, oh, they're so amazing. And I can't wait to get there. And then being their teammates and just seeing how this life, you know, that we live is, the intent. pressure, you know, what guys need to cope with everything that's going on. It's really difficult. And I kind of had that on the inside of me of going, man, this, I thought it'd be different. You know, I thought it'd be more fulfilling. And so I remember going to chapel

with the NBA, and the chaplain said, Luke 646, which says, I can, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say? And it really pierced me because for that first moment, And I was like, oh, wow, I never heard this verse before, one. And it was kind of weird to see Jesus as kind of confrontational. Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and not do what I say? And it really just struck me. And I remember thinking about it in the game, thinking about it before I went to sleep. And I pretty much said to myself, hey, I want to, it's either I'm not going to call myself a Christian anymore,

or I really want to go through this to verify if it's true or not. And I dived into Christian apologetics, William Lane Craig, Frank Turrick, John Lennox, all these different guys. I started watching all type of videos. But when I really started to believe was the love of Christ. The guy that I met in the elevator, I started hanging out with him, and he started to teach me about the love of God and what it all meant. And that was something that I didn't know that I needed because I was so used to working for love. And doing what I thought I needed to do to get people to love me. and the idea that Christ loved me for me

and died on the cross for me set me free in a lot of ways and I've been on a journey of growing in that, growing in that belief and the guy that I met on the elevator was actually a pastor and he became my pastor and yeah, it's a really beautiful story it's all in the book that I wrote about the moment

and I'm sure we'll get to that but yeah, really life-changing and I've been on that road of Christianity and trying my best to follow Christ and growing as a man, you know, for quite a while now. If you could summarize it, you know, in a very, very, kind of brief way, because you were obviously you're a Christian from the beginning, but, like, what is the biggest difference from, like, the before and after?

Yeah. I would say the biggest difference is internal. Growing in this relationship with Christ, I've seen how I've changed just as a person about what I care about, you know, what I hold dear, what's important to me. I was lost, you know, in that stage of trying to fit in and trying to be somebody that I thought I needed to be or that other people wanted me to be, I found myself in a lot of situations where I was just like, why am I here?

You know, why am I doing this? Why am I smoking this? Why am I at this club or now? Why am I drinking? And it was to fill a void of fulfillment. and Christ has taken that place and I look at myself now and it's been a journey of growth and falling and getting back up and relying on his grace but I've gotten to a place where I look at myself and you know I don't recognize the guy that I was before

and to me it's the truth of the gospel that sin has entered the world and the reason why the world is the way that it is today all that we see all the turmoil all the the evil that we experience is because of sin, but God has made a sacrifice for us to be made right with him. And in being made right with him, then we do life with him. And I've experienced doing life with him as better than the life I was living before. And almost every way. Even though there's still difficulties, there's still hardships, inside of the gospel is the truth and the ability to handle it and, you know, with God. Yeah, I want to explore that a lot because your faith obviously has been

central to, I guess, some very high profile things that you've done over the last several years. For sure. Right. And, you know, that's something that I've covered a lot on this show is talking with people who made seemingly tough decisions, but most of them will just tell me, like, I didn't have a choice. It's just kind of what I had to do. Right. Right. And, but it often was connected with some very deep conviction or their faith, right? That they, there's some sort of, almost as if they didn't have a choice because their values were speaking to them.

Right. So strongly. Absolutely. Right. Your pastor says, the darker the night, the brighter the light. That's, you know, of course I get that from you, but how does, what does that mean? I think the way that he meant it was, from a, from a, from a, Christian standpoint and us being Christians, it's like, this is why we're here, right? As the world gets darker, as the world gets more evil, there's the world, you know,

there's a Bible verse that I was reading yesterday. And it's, you know, Paul is writing and he's saying, in the last days, people will be lovers of themselves and money. You know, evil will grow, all of these different things. And you look at the world today and it's like, man, it's becoming more and more like what he laid out, you know, selfish and all these different things. The idea is that as Christians, you know, in relationship with God and God living on the inside of us, that as the world gets darker, we get brighter in terms of attracting people that want to do, you know, life with Christ and see the difference between the way the world is and the way that we are and the way that we live. And so, you know, the darker the night,

the bright of the light, and also just Christ, you know, the darkness in my life, you know, before I received Christ, was really dark. And that only made him brighter in terms of looking for somewhere to go, looking for some type of relief, and he was the answer. If you could go back to the younger Jonathan who was struggling with anxiety, struggling with this need to be accepted is there something you would tell him yeah I mean I grew up in the church but I didn't I didn't really believe until later and so I would tell them you believe now you know because it would have saved me from so

many missteps me being hurt or hurting other people I would come back and just be like it's the truth you know it's the truth believe it and I think I would have saved myself a lot a lot of heart and trouble and even Even with that anxiety, striving and growing and finding my identity in Christ has been the thing that has helped me the most with it. Well, so if I can jump in, right? What's interesting to me is when I look back at my life, I think it seems like the moments that really were the darkest. When I look back at them now, they were kind of the most valuable, and I wouldn't change them for the world because, well, they brought me here. help me figure a lot of things out and be someone who lives to be of service.

Yeah. I mean, I definitely hear that. I think for me it's like sometimes we don't have to go through things and we can learn from other people's mistakes and not make the same mistakes ourselves. So I could have saved myself a lot of trouble and heartache if I didn't do some of the things that I did because of the position that I was in. Well, let's start talking a little bit about, you know, you taking a stand. Yeah. Quite literally. You know, that's when I first became aware of you, you know, back in the early COVID days, there was this NBA COVID bubble. Everyone was in quarantine. The whole BLM thing happened, right? Which many people will remember. And there was this huge

pressure for everyone to wear a BLM shirt. And it's just not in the NBA. It's all over society. Right. To Neil, during the National Anthem, in the NBA, and all sorts of related things. It's almost a difficult to think back. Exactly. You didn't very prominently. And so just tell me about that whole situation, what happened, how it happened.

Yeah. So, I mean, every time that I talk about it and I think about it, it feels so surreal because it really just was craziness of, you know, being, being, you know, and I think about it. know, being inside of the moment, seeing everything that was going on. So, you know, you have the death of George Floyd and the spark of, you know, Black Lives Matter and the Black Lives Matter organization and movement and everything like that. And, you know, I wasn't opposed to it at all. You know, I understood where the humanity and where it all was coming from. But me being a Christian at the time, I was trying to figure out, what does this mean? What is an appropriate response

that honors the truth and that honors giving an answer toward progress? And I remember having conversations with some buddies early on in the movement. And I would offer some of that in terms of Christ ultimately being the thing that can bring all of us together. And it was kind of like, we don't want to talk about that right now. Like that's not what this is about. And so although I understood where they were coming from, I kind of felt like, man, this movement may not be for me. The tone and the rhetoric, some of the things that were going on. I was like, I don't know if I can give my allegiance, not that Black Lives don't matter, but give my allegiance to this movement because of the way that they're operating and speaking and everything like that. And so I remember, you know, there were riots that were going on and we were set to go into the bubble.

and my pastor at the time was preaching a sermon on the moment that Jesus is captured by the Roman guard and one of his disciples, Peter, takes out his sword and cuts off the guy's ear. And what he said was, with what happened to George Floyd, we have an opportunity. If we respond in the way that's natural in terms of our nature, which is anger, resentment, retaliation, hatred, all these different things that will come natural to something like that happening, we're going to get the same result. Jesus said, if you live by the sword, you're going to die by the sword. And he said, if we could step into this moment with love, grace, mercy, and truth, there can really be progress and, you know, mending of the black and white community, all these different things.

And I believe that, you know, and it really resonated with me that, man, like, I have an opportunity to love somebody that doesn't love me or be the first one to reach across the aisle and lend a hand and see if they would give a hand back and that's just not what I saw with what was going on and so I kind of just hit that in my heart I didn't have this plan to speak up or anything like that because I didn't know that there was going to be this moment in the bubble

until we got in there so we get into the bubble and a team that's playing we were going to play the next day and so a team that was playing that today decided to kneel and now there's this you know consciousness and ripple effect that's going through everybody was just going oh shoot we're if we don't kneel now we're going to look like we're not a part of the movement and that we don't believe that black lives matter and you know the whole nine and so now the you know the our officials call everybody into a room

all the all the team like hey let's let's get a grip on what we're going to do and they pretty and say, guys, whatever you're going to do, we'll do the same. Just let us know. And now it's a team-only meeting. And we get into a team-only meeting, and guys are pretty much like, look, we don't have a choice. You know, there's no choice here. The team already nailed. If we don't kneel, then it's just going to be, it's going to make more chaos. And one of my teammates turned towards me and said, yo, Jonathan, what are you going to do? And I said, I said, fellas, I'm not going to kneel and I'm not going to wear that t-shirt and you know everybody's like oh my gosh here we go one of my teammates is like what is wrong with you why not and I pretty much say look

I see the problem I'm not saying that I don't see the problem not saying that I didn't see what happened to George Floyd I just believe that there's a better and greater solution to not only racism but all the problems that we see in our in our world because ultimately I believe that there are heart issues and Jesus can change heart because he's changed mine and so I said look I can't throw stones from a glass house I need forgiveness every single day and it's not saying that we bypass you know what what people do and you know automatically forgive and there's no retaliation or there's no consequences for actions but I pretty much said I want to treat the

situation the way that I would want to be treated if I was in it and so yes we had we had that talk we all left and I just pretty much said guys look I respect your decision to Neil You know, I don't, I don't feel like you guys are, you know, doing something wrong. I respect your decision. I understand why you're kneeling. I understand why this time is so emotional and what's going on. I just believe that there's a different solution. And so we break.

I called my pastor that night and I pretty much say, hey, this is the situation that's going to happen tomorrow. I need you to know that I'm going to be, they're going to destroy me. That's pretty much what I said. I said, look, I'm going to lose my black card. I'm going to be a sellout. This is not going to be good. It's pretty much what I said. And, you know, my contract extension was up.

Was coming up after this season in the bubble is when I was going to possibly sign a new contract. And I pretty much just trying to get him to wrap because he's not social media savvy or anything like that. So it was like I'm trying to let him pretty much trying to talk him into saying, don't do it. I'm like, yo, this is going to be huge. Like, they're going to drag me. And he said, Jonathan, you cannot stand for God and God not stand for you. And I was just like, dang, I got to do it. You know, I felt, like you said, you know, that that conviction of this is the right thing for me.

I believe that this was God saying this was the right thing for me to do. And I couldn't just let that go. And so the day came and I just wore my jersey because they didn't have any of their warmups or anything other than the BLM shirt. and I went out there and stood. I was kind of just praying under my breath, you know, asking God to, like, help me. You know, I don't, I don't know what I'm doing, you know. I believe that what I'm doing is about you and for you, but I'm terrified, you know, of the repercussions and what could happen and what people are going to think.

And I kind of just said, to heck with it, you know, this is the right thing for me to do. But for sure I was terrified. You've said that you're an unlikely person to stand. Why? I would say I'm unlikely because of just my background, you know. With the anxiety, with the stuff that I've struggled with, I would never want to be the person that is the sore thumb or goes against the grain. And so even for me, I know that the conviction was there and that there had been a transformation in my heart to where I said,

God, I want to trust you over myself, you know? There's a concept in Christianity, which is like dying to yourself. And pretty much saying, God, let you go, will be done over mine. And whether this thing is going to cost me, friends, or love. that I had previously, I'm willing to give that up in order to do what you want me to do. And that's why I would say I was the unlikely person because much of my life had been characterized by, you know, self-insurity and weakness to then have people call me bold afterward. It was like, who are you talking about, you know? So that's why I'd say that. There were other, I guess, pretty prominent decisions that that you made, which became.

public. Like, for example, you chose a, you made a choice around vaccination. Right. Right. So how did that all play up? That all played out because I, so I remember early on, right, you know, we're seeing all these images from China on Twitter and like just people in body bags. And I remember seeing that and it going around and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this is crazy. What is this? And you started hearing people over here, got it, and expecting that same thing. And, you know, it happens, you know, a player in the NBA gets it, and it all shuts down. And really just trying to wrap my head around it, I tried not to panic in a sense.

So I'm like, okay, what is happening? What does this mean? What is this disease? And what does it mean for everybody? And so instead of, like, getting into the hysteria immediately, I was kind of just like, okay, I want to understand. it. And, you know, the NBA brought us in. They brought a team doctor in. And the team doctor was pretty much just like, it almost felt like he was trying to let us know it's not that bad, but that we're going to have to go through these protocols. And, you know, he told us that

it was too small. Apparently the particles were too small for the mask that they were going to have us use to catch it. And it kind of struck me like, that was weird. Why did he say that? And he was pretty saying like only the N95 masks is standard of masks do it. And they were like, but we're not going to use those masks. And I was kind of like, that's weird. And so I just immediately, I was kind of just like, okay. And I started to just look into it. And, you know, from what I saw and, you know, heard online and was like, hey, you know, this is vaccine that's coming. And And if you are compromised in any way, then the vaccine is probably a good idea for you. But yeah, I kind of just had to, you know, I'm young, I'm healthy.

I don't have to take this. And but then I saw the what felt like corporate pressure of just everywhere, not not necessarily even from the NBA, but the NBA kind of was like, hey, you know, we want to get this done. And if you don't get the shot, then these are going to be some of the, you know, the repercussions. and, or things that you're going to have to do. You know, you can't eat with the team. You can't, you know, be here, here. And I just, I just always felt like it was weird from the beginning.

I'm like, okay, we're sitting on the bench with our mask on. We're going to take the mask off. We're going to get into a game where we're all breathing on each other and touching each other. We're going to get out of the game and put the mask back on in this close building. And I was kind of just like, this doesn't make any sense. And, you know, you had the celebrities and you had all the commercials and everything. And I was just like, this feels insane to me. And it was kind of like, I remember when Trump was talking about doing a vaccine really quickly, everybody was against it.

If I remember correctly. That's kind of the feeling. And then there was, you know, Biden came in and it was like, everybody was like, no, the vaccine we have to take. And I was just like, what is going on? And so I pretty much just made the decision like, hey, I'm just. I'm going to, one, trust God, but like, I'm going to believe the science that I was seeing, which was, you know, if you're young, if you're healthy, you may get it, but it's not going to kill you. If you're in a compromised state, it's a good idea to get the vaccine to protect

yourself if you have, you know, what do they call it, comorbidities or something like that. And, yeah, I just kind of made that decision. I remember there was a doctor on Twitter, Dr. Aaron K.R.D., and I saw him talking about how he lost his job. at UC Irvine and about his decision not to get vaccinated. And I just shot him a DM. I was like, hey, you know, break this down for me. And he gave me the whole, this whole spiel. And that gave me more confidence to say, hey, okay,

this isn't for me. If you wanna get it, more power to you. I'm not telling people not to take it. But for me, I'm okay. And my wife decided not to take it and all that. And I got COVID. I got COVID really early on. And it passed and I was okay.

It sucked for a few days, for sure, but it passed and I was okay. And I just kind of kept it moving from there. But Rolling Stone, I got a phone call from our media guy at The Magic saying, hey, this Rolling Stone guy wants to interview about your decision not to get vaccinated. And I was like, how does he know I'm not vaccinated? I was like, what is there? Is it out there that I'm not vaccinated? I have no idea.

And because I had never spoken about it. And so I get on the phone with him and he's like, you know, he's trying to do the buddy-buddy thing. Like, hey, man, you know, I totally understand where you're coming from. Like, can you just break down for me? Like, what you're thinking? And we had a great conversation I felt like. I told him that, you know, one, that I was a Christian and I believed that, you know, God, God had me. And I didn't feel like this was a decision that I needed to make in order for, you know, to be safe.

And we talked about the comorbidity. You talked about all these different things. and get off the phone with him and this article comes out and it's utter I can't even say the word it's just terrible um it misrepresented at 1,000% misrepresented my position I felt like it was a mockery and I was I was furious and I remember talking to my pastor too I was I was livid and he said well don't do anything don't post or anything like that if somebody asked you about it then speak about it it happened that the media day was the next day with the magic so the media day happens and i'm on a podium by myself and they're

asking me hey this this rolling stone article just came out what do you have to say and i said it i said i think it's i think it's ridiculous um i think it's crazy to be that we're even in this position right now and i talked about some of the things that we're having to do protocol-wise that don't make any sense. And I felt like based on the signs that I was going to be okay. And the whole thing about everybody trying to get you to take a vaccine that has been proven to not stop you from getting COVID or stop you from transferring COVID, it just makes your chances a little better. And I was just like, okay, I'm good. That's not for me. And the video went viral. You know, a lot of people understood where I was coming from and backed me.

Do you feel like with the standing, you know, back a little bit earlier in COVID, you feel like you were kind of like training a muscle there a little bit? I think it did give me a little backbone. I was definitely caught off guard both sides, well, just one, obviously the negativity that came about it. Like all the social media's and everything was born up, a lot of people didn't agree or didn't understand where I was coming from, but at the same time a lot of people did. I had letters coming to my house.

I think my jersey sold second highest in the NBA at that point with people who agree with me and understood where I was coming from with it. But I did think it gave me some tougher skin to go, okay, you know, I'm okay with, I survived. I'm okay with saying what I feel. It's right if I need to, you know. The standing situation was I had a decision to make. Am I going to stand? The COVID was, I have a decision to make.

What am I going to do? and I only spoke about it once I was questioned. I mean, some things happened, right? You lost a contract with Nike. Some things happened. You lost a contract with Nike. But did you ever feel like your job might be in jeopardy or anything like that? Well, I did because you just didn't know.

You're like, you know, everything that was going on media-wise? I think it was the high time of like a lot of people getting canceled too, right? Like if you didn't kind of assimilate to the situation, you were seeing as like a crazy person. and deserving of cancellation. So I definitely thought that after the bubble situation, that it could work out to where I was out of the NBA. But I'm grateful for the magic and the divorce family and, you know, them understanding where I was coming from,

even if they didn't agree. You know, I think that's the biggest thing for me. It was like, I've never been a person where it's like, hey, you need to believe what I'm saying, and I care nothing about your opinion. I very much desire to understand where people are coming from. And I feel like in a lot of these situations I did, people were scared. People were terrified.

And then you have all of this media pressure and propaganda. They're paying celebrities to come out and say, take the back. The Burger King is giving out free fries and hamburgers for people who get the vaccine. It's like I completely understand and I respect your decision to get vaccinated. I'm just asking for that same respect in return. And even if you don't give it to me, that's okay. I'm not offended. I'm not angry.

I'm not mad. I feel like I've tried my best to keep that position about a lot of things. And I think that's, that's, that's democracy, that's civil, that's, hey, this is my deeply held belief and, you know, I'm not hurting anybody and you're free to have your deeply held beliefs and we can disagree or agree to disagree. You see, a lot of people wrote to you. Yeah. About, well, I guess, you know, one, on one side, not the other side, or mainly on which

side? I say the people that wrote to me, I got a lot of letters. That was mainly encouragement. I say like the social media was like a lot of the negativity, but, you know, people just, you know, they said they thought what I did was courageous and gave them permission to be courageous as well. I spoke to some other athletes that felt like they were in similar situations and didn't know what to do, but they felt deeply about what they wanted to do and they felt like what I said was important. So I was able to talk to them through it and they ended up making the same decision. So it was, it was a crazy, crazy. Crazy time.

Tell me about losing the Nike contract. I got hurt and it's hard to keep paying a player when he's hurt. But I'm glad that it happened because of what was able to be birthed out of it. And so I get hurt. You know, they make their decision not to resign me. I think I kind of made myself. I think it made it hard for, you know, for them to keep me just because, you know, maybe we don't align on a lot of things.

I get that. But I got injured and I go to my pastor on my road to recovery and I say, hey, you know, when I get back from injury, I'll probably either try to go back with Nike because that was apparently an opportunity or Adidas or somebody else. And he said, no, you know, why don't you make your own shoe? And I was kind of like, that's crazy, you know, that players don't do that. That's why they have these brands. And he said, no, really think about it, look at it, make your own shoe. And so I started to go down the road of what it would look like called my agent and had a bunch of conversations. And we were on the road to creating our own shoe. And we created the Judah 1, which was in is the first NBA signature sneaker with visible Bible verses on the

outside. And, you know, we started to sell them. And it was dope. I mean, the real big thing was for me to wear them on an NBA court. And it really were for me in the sense of I picked verses that really spoke to me. Proverbs 281, The Righteous are as bold as lines. And we came together, my pastor came to me and was like, why don't we create this as an opportunity for Christians all around the world to be united? And on the same front of belief and encouragement and using the Word of God in sports. So the idea was to have young people playing in their basketball games with Bible verses on their shoes as an encouragement, as a reminder, as a unifying, you know, a factor? What if there was a mainstream brand for Christians by Christians

that encouraged them to keep being Christian, keep growing and uniting with each other? And that's how unite us was born. So what do we got here? We have a pair of the Judah twos. The Judah ones are kind of finished now. They're pretty much all sold out. We've got a pair of the Judah ones in the museum and the Bible that just got put there. Here you go. They're my size, so they're a little large the massachusetts oh my goodness like bigger than my head i'll take you do some of the details okay please uh judah here is my middle name um we have a line right here just another symbol of judah christ is the line of the tribe of judah you've got the unitas logo right here up front you've got unitas on the bottom here great traction and pretty much the the start of the show is the fact

they've got a Bible verse right on the front ton. Hebrews 12.1. So this one is the United's Judah 2 witness. Hebrews 121 says, since we're surrounded by such a big cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every way and the sin that so easily entangles us and run the race of endurance. You know, some of the messages here I think are pretty universal. Like one, the one that particularly struck me and, you know, something that would be great to have on your shoes is persecuted but not abandoned struck down but not destroyed well why did you pick that one well i picked that one because that's how i felt you know i felt that god had me you know god had my back through all the situations through the injuries through the negativity through the

ups and through the downs um he didn't abandon me um i was definitely struck down but i wasn't destroyed and so the verses really spoke to me well speaks to me Awesome. Yes, sir. I guess what I'm trying to say is I think your shoes might have a even broader, you know, more universal mesh, not necessarily just for Christians. I wonder if you've thought about that. No, absolutely for sure.

Yeah, for sure. I think it's a, with where we are and today, like I think just encouragement is what a lot of people need and in a lot of the verses is just like you said, there's encouragement. can identify with diverses. And I think if you identify with it, then it's, it's for you. How's the brand doing? It's doing well. You know, it's been a crazy process of stepping into the business lane. I never thought that it would be doing that at all or that purpose. But, you know, the Judah one, you know, we're pretty much completely sold out of it. We came out with a fortress sneaker, which is our kind of everyday walk-around sneaker. And we've got a ton

of colorways and that and people are really enjoying them. They're really, really comfortable. We just launched our Patriot colorway, red, white, and blue of that fortress shoe. And it has Isaiah 9, 6 on the back, which pretty much talks about Jesus and how the government will be on his shoulders. And he'll be called the Prince of Peace, Everlasting God, all that stuff. And yeah, so it's doing well. We're working. We're grinding on continuing to grow and get into doing shoes outside of just basketball, but sports. And then everyday casual shoes, well. So no regrets? No, not at all. No regrets. Even if, you know, God forbid, even if it doesn't do well, even if, you know, I have to stop doing United someday because we just don't

make it the ability to put the Word of God on shoes in the NBA, the messages that we've got of young people wearing the shoes. I get so many pictures all the time on, you know, Instagram and social media people say, oh, look, my son is wearing your shoes or I'm wearing your shoes and it has a Bible wrist on it that I read all the time and it's just an encouragement you know I got a DM from a guy who's playing overseas

who had the shoes and I just I messaged him back and I said yo I just got to say something to you like I recognize that you know I'm not the biggest superstar in the NBA people wouldn't consider me a superstar at all there are a lot of other shoes out there that are probably look better

you know more comfortable but you're wearing this shoe because of Christ because it has the word of God on it. And I just want to commend you for that. And I think that's so cool. And that's what it is for me. It's pretty much saying, like, Christ is more important to me than all the other stuff, you know?

And to wear his word on my shoes is a privilege. I think you're a bit hard on yourself. I was looking at your numbers. You're not that bad. I appreciate you. Appreciate you. Not that I'm a, you know, huge basketball watcher or anything like that. But, you know, you definitely hold your own.

I appreciate it. Clearly, there's a reason you say. still have a job, right? For sure. For sure. Something just came to my mind. You know, I have had another NBA player on the show that was Ennis Cantor Freedom, right? Yeah.

The verse actually makes me think of him a little bit because his, you know, he also had a very unique pair of shoes which he wore, which caused, in this case, caused a lot of controversy and you wanted to stand up for the persecuted Uyghur people in China and so forth. I'm wondering if you've ever thought about that. About him and him in taking that position. Now he's kind of moved on. Yeah, I mean, around that time, I remember talking with Ennis a little bit. I might disagree with kind of the way he might have gone about certain things,

but I definitely understand, you know, that it was very, very dear to him. And it wasn't something that he was just doing just to, you know, get attention. And so, you know, I commend him for that. Some things are, you know, we have things in our society which is like you just don't say that. You just don't do that. You just don't go against that because it's so big. And he took on, you know, wanted a big thing, you know, a big industry and, you know, fought his best fight. And like you say, he's going on and doing different things.

But, you know, I can't imagine the courage and, you know, no, what that took for him to do that. As we finish up, I've got a quote I want to read you. So when God is leading you in a direction, he's not trying to take anything from you. He has a perfect plan and a purpose for your life. So here's another quote that resonates with me personally, which is why I chose this quotes from you. As we finish up, you know, tell me about that. For much of my life, especially as a young person, I felt like God was, was trying to take things away from you.

At least that's how I understood it by going to church. It's like, you can't do this, you can't do that. And so that's the picture I had. It's like, oh, if I was going to do this God thing, then I'd be no fun. There's no fun in life. And I just, my experience is that that's just not true. That God isn't trying to take anything away from us, that he's inviting us into his plan and that he's actually trying to get something to us.

And that's what I'm experiencing, you know? When I felt like God was trying to take women away from me, it was really trying to get me my wife and my beautiful babies. And so, yeah, I've seen that to be true. And not only in my life, but countless lives where we feel like God is a restriction or rules or a restriction, but they're actually freedom, you know, to where we're not slaves to what's natural to us, which is usually bad. Well, Jonathan Isaac, I think that, you know, you do seem to be part of a bigger plan. I appreciate that. It's such a pleasure to have had you on. Yes, sir.

Thank you so much. Thank you all for joining Jonathan and Isaac and me. On this episode of American Thought Leaders, I'm your host, Yanya Kelek.