American Thought Leaders - Andy Ngo: I Was Nearly Killed by Antifa. This is What I Learned.

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Few people understand the far-left extremist group Antifa as well as investigative journalist Andy Ngo, author of “Unmasked: Inside Antifa’s Radical Plan to Destroy Democracy.”He has been beaten, attacked, and nearly killed by Antifa for his undercover reporting of the group’s operations.In an executive order signed on Sept. 22, President Donald Trump designated the group a domestic terrorist organization. On Oct. 8, the president hosted a roundtable focused on Antifa and invited Ngo and other journalists to participate.In this episode, Ngo recounts his harrowing personal experiences.What will it take to actually dismantle Antifa? How is Antifa organized and funded? And what does Ngo make of the broader trends of political violence, from the assassination of Charlie Kirk to the murder of the United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson?Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

I was bleeding out from this area under my eyes, bleeding out from my ears, and then bleeding in my brain. Andy Noe is the author of the New York Times bestseller, Unmasked, Inside Antifa's Radical Plan to Destroy Democracy. He's been beaten, attacked, and nearly killed twice by Antifa for his reporting. I hope my reporting and my suggestions can give investigators some potential ideas. Trump recently designated the group as a domestic terror organization in an executive. order and hosted a roundtable with Andy Noe and other journalists who recounted their experiences. You don't get that level of successful riding without coordination. And they were clearly coordinated. They have flyers. Where to come? Where to go?

People have died by radical leftists in the U.S. This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Yanya Kellogg. Andy Noe, such a pleasure to have you back on American Thought Leaders. Thank you. You were just at the White House roundtable on Antifa and the A.G. Pam Bondi talked about, you know, of course it's been designated a domestic terrorist organization. She talked about taking it apart, brick by brick, top to bottom. Cash Patel mentioned the FBI director that it had been built over a long period of time. How does one actually accomplish this? It's going to be very, very difficult, not easy. I alluded to that in my comments to the president and members of his cabinet. Well, what the DOJ can do is there's several things.

First, if they take on cases of criminal suspects who are engaging in federal crimes relating to rioting and other attacks, that then takes it out of the hands of local prosecutors generally because local prosecutors aren't going to pursue charges against most of these right cases or they give them sweetheart plea deals where there's no really meaningful consequence, as we saw in 2020. There's that.

So I'm not even talking about conspiracy charges or anything, just assault, arson, charges that attack some federal officers, Like, there are federal crimes that can apply right now. You don't have to be very creative. But more meaningfully, taking it apart brick by brick, as you were just quoted them saying, I think the DOJ should use conspiracy charges. They have not used that at any point ever for suspects who are accused of being part of Antifa or committing in organized crimes in furtherance of the ANSI.

ideology. But it hasn't been done before at the state level. And the state of California versus 12 suspects. That was the case. And prosecutors in San Diego alleged that 12 members they had identified were part of SoCal Antifa, a regional cell in Southern California that included members in L.A. and Long Beach and San Diego that they had conspired together to carry out violence and rioting on Pacific Beach in January 2021. On that day, groups of people came dressed in black with their faces covered, and they had melee weapons and protractical weapons, and they attacked violently people who were attending a pro-Trump rally.

The violence was so unrestrained that the militants attacked members of the public on the beach, people who were walking their dogs, people who are walking nearby. This is during the middle of the day when there were people going to the beach and they were affected by the mace and pepper spray. A woman was beaten to the ground. A teenage boy who was underage, was assaulted and there were numerous victims. A journalist was bashed on the back with some type of pole or a stick. and police were injured and in this case the majority of them

were convicted of felony conspiracy all 12 were convicted of something by the way and because it went to trial the evidence came out what the prosecutors had they likely has one person out of the 12 cooperating that's my belief

recover signal chats everyone had an alias they coordinated who was coming together who was leaving together, what cause, what to bring. And it showed that there were even some left-wing journalists who were in the signal chat, who were there, by the way. None of that was particularly surprising to me. I knew all about.

I wrote a book on Antifa called on Mass. It was a New York Times bestseller. It came out in 2021. However, it was surprising in the context that this came out on the record in a criminal trial, finally. And of course that case got no national media attention at all. So I think the DOJ can really look to that and see because there are federal charges of conspiracy that can apply

even more creatively. They could potentially even look at racketeering charges because of how some of the Antifa networks themselves organized, they operate as a game, essentially. They have members, they coordinate together. They typically use signal. and they have a plan and are instructed for how to destroy evidence as well. Now, where it gets more confusing or difficult, maybe from prosecutors' perspective,

from law enforcement perspective, is how do you identify those who are in a cell versus somebody who shows up to riot and is not part of the network? There are certain ways to identify that, but the way that Antifa organizes, it's meant to appear as if there is no organization, but they are organized. I hope people don't forget what happened in 2020 when for months, cities like Portland in Seattle and other places were besieged by nightly violence by Antifa. Individuals who all donned the same black uniform, showed up at the same time, dispersed together and carried out mass violence,

and disappeared into the darkness of the night, and did it night. after night, after night, with local prosecutors essentially doing nothing. Even when police didn't make arrests in the case of Portland, the district attorney there, Mike Schmidt, chose not to prosecute over 90% of them. His office, as soon as he came into power in August 2020, just had a whole list of riot-related crimes that he announced his office would not pursue charges on those who are charged with these.

And at those riots, what I saw, particularly when the federal courthouse in downtown was besieged, in an insurrection, night after night in July, thousands of people came. They were extremely coordinated. At the front, or the so-called Wall of Mums. That was all for the cameras. These are anti-Fund members and their supporters, females, who would wear yellow shirts, hook arms, and had signs saying, we are mothers, we are our moms. It was for the cameras, because, of course, the video cameras and the pictures that come out of that

and their stories in the legacy media from that time, peaceful protesters. These are just mothers who are protesting against white supremacy and racism and police brutality, peer propaganda. You know, who was behind them, and while the moms knew this, behind them was the black block. There was a brigade of those who were shining powerful green lasers. There were dozens of them who had these lasers. And it's not like it was one laser for each officer, no. The whole group of 50 would concentrate on one person.

So when you have, I mean, your eyes can get injured from one being directed at it, when you have dozens of people shining lights. And so dozens of officers did suffer pretty serious eye injuries at that time. There were those in the back, in the black block, who hurled projectile weapons, things that looked peaceful on camera. Like holding a water bottle is not particularly threatening, but when it's frozen and it's used to hurl at somebody's face, it can be deadly. And that's what they were doing. They had rocks, they even brought cans of soup. So all these type of things that weren't tech were not actually illegal to have.

It's not illegal to have a bag, rocks in your backpack or cans of. soup or frozen water bottles but those were the type of weapons they were using and then they had so-called medics these are fake medics these are people homemade printed medic patches and even their own so-called press even within the rioters there are those who had homemade press badges that they printed out and the purpose for that was to make police apprehensive of making an arrest you know like an attack on a journalist or something like that. And anything that could be used as a weapon was some of the weapons included a blade being attached to the end of the umbrellas so they can use that to jab at police.

And they brought ropes and electric grinding cutting tools to cut apart the reinforced fencing that was put outside the federal courthouse. This fencing, by the ways, was the same type of fencing that was used outside the Capitol building after 6th of January. So it's very heavy duty. But we had thousands of rioters

working in a coordinated fashion and they were able to snap that fence. Night after night, they were doing this. You don't get that level of successful rioting. without coordination. And they were clearly coordinated. They have flyers.

Where to come, where to go. So I bring up this example from five years ago because I don't want it to be memory-hold. The press would like to. But the ANCIFA then are building off what they learned at that time for today. And so, and part of the lessons that they learned is how do we hide evidence that we're organized?

So they have so many tactics, right? They will use, they will put their phones in Farah Bay, I think the Carfair Bay bags, to block signals so that the towers can't pick up geolocation on their devices, which could be used as evidence that they were charged with something. they operate in these ad hoc signal groups and some of this evidence came out in an ongoing criminal case out of Texas actually North District of Texas the public and the national press aren't really covering this at all but in July over a dozen mass militants with tactical gear and firearms shot up the

ice facility in Alvarado, Texas, the prairie land facility. And an officer was shot in the neck. He was very fortunate to survive that. Most of the ambush attackers were apprehended that night by local law enforcement. The alleged ringleader, Benjamin Song, fled the area. Investigators believe that he hid in a forested area around the facility, for over the facility, he for over a day until it was safe for him to flee. Multiple firearms were recovered. They came with a cache of weapons. They had a getaway car. Tons of weapons were discovered in the car. And the ringleader was on the run for two weeks, and he wasn't captured until almost 14 days afterward. He was found in an Antifa safe house among some of his comrades.

in Dallas. So he didn't go very far. He just stayed in the city where his network was. And this was an individual who I'd been tracking to my reporting before because he was part of the John Brown Gun Club, which is the name that people should know. That's a far less militia, a anarchist, communist militia that teaches its members to use firearms, not for self-defense, but in furtherance of violence against its perceived enemies and the state. And back in 2019, a member of the John Brown Gun Club carried out another shooting attack on an ice facility. That was the Tacoma Ice Facility in Washington State. And this was somebody I had seen before in my reporting on Antifa.

His name was Villen Fanzsson. He was a Belgian-American, naturalized American citizen, who was extremely right. radical and he was older. I believe he was in his late 60s, so he was much older than the average Antifa member, but nevertheless extremely ideological and radicalized. Villain Fensh Bronson showed up with a ghost rifle, which is a homemade firearm, so it was unregistered, untraceable, and began shooting up the facility, and he had explosive devices with him that he used to set cars on fire outside. the facility and he was aiming at a huge perpainting that was attached to the building and he was shot dead before he was able to blow it up and before he

carried out the attack this John Brown Gun Club member sent out a manifesto to his comrades none of them contacted law enforcement of course but the contents of that com of that manifest are posted online and shared by Antifa as a template for others to carry out similar direct action. And in that manifesto, he describes himself as Antifa. He gives reverence to his trans comrades in particular. And this was 2019, by the way, so this was slightly predating the rise of Trantifa violence that we're seeing now. Pardon me, which comrades? Trans comrades. Trans comrades. Got it. And towards the end of this manifesto, he's listing out all his grievances against the state and white subpoena.

Supremacy, things that we've all heard before and can expect of a far left violent militant. But he also includes the lyrics of the Italian folk song, Bella Chao. You know, you live in London, England now. Tell me the circumstances behind which you had to actually move there. Sometimes people think I was being dramatic when I said I had to leave the U.S. for safety reasons. I mean, they might not be aware that I nearly died. took a very long time to get some improvements through various forms of therapies through the hospital.

Leading up to the 2019 beating, where they punched me repeatedly on the head and face so hard that I was bleeding out from this area under my eyes, bleeding out from my ears, and then bleeding in my brain, which I didn't know at the time. They threw all those drinks on me. And these are the pictures that people when they first Google. It's me covered in these drinks.

When I was 2019, 2020, I was undercover and embedded in these riots. And that's how I gathered the field research for most of the material from my book. In 2021, I left a country for six months. And I thought, you know, maybe it's time to go home. My parents are in Portland. Their health was not great. It was very difficult being away from them. them. So I went back to Portland and I thought maybe I can do more reporting. At that point, I had received a lot of death threats. But for those who are in the public space and they're

effective of what they do, particularly when they are good at exposing left-to-extremism, they do get a lot of threats. And at a certain point, it's easy to sort of just accept that as a new normal and not really quite register the severity of the threats. I think that's what happened to me. So in May 2021, I was undercover again in Portland in downtown. This was a one-year riot that was organized as an anniversary event for what had happened the year prior. And the group was smaller, and I made a mistake of sticking around. even though there was probably around 100 people, that's small enough that the organizers within the group could keep an eye out on people who weren't rioting with them. You're there in Black Block,

but you're not doing anything. Why? There was an anti-fund member who had attacked me before, who identified me verbally to others there. So they went up and questioned me At that point, I was just thinking, how do I get out of this? I was a block from the Central Police Station, but to walk in that direction, I would have had to walk through dozens of Antiphon Black Block, and a group of them had come up and asked me who I was. I started walking away. I heard one of them say, I think it's him. and those feelings that I was having it was I had never had that type of feeling or dread before

and I was just wishing and praying in my head that law enforcement were nearby or undercover or around the corner I'll see a police car something please and I kept walking and I it was dark this was 10 p.m. on a Friday night so the shadows are casted long from the light lamps and I could see as I was walking away trying to remain calm I was still in black block covered

covered my eyes were covered I could see the shadows of the group behind me they were pursuing me every business was basically closed this was a year after the riots that ravaged downtown I mean, that finished off any businesses that weren't finished off from COVID already. The hotel that was open that I went to, the front doors were locked.

Vagrancy had become such a big problem at that point that the hotels in downtown didn't unlock their doors. So the person at the front desk didn't open it for me. and the group caught up and in one swoop one of them wrapped at my head and pulled off the glasses that I had the ski goggles actually and the balaclava and I was completely exposed and I took off running in this video I have shared it's compiled from multiple surveillance cameras in the city you can see me running for my life I never ran that fast before I didn't know I could run that fast. And I'm running through downtown, sprinting,

screaming for help, and nobody helped. There were people walking around. This was a Friday night, 10 p.m. It's not that late. Cars were in the middle of the road. I ran in the middle of the cars in the streets at the red light, pounding on windows and cars, asking for help. And when the light turned green, they drove off. You can see in the video that the group caught up to me and they tackled me to the ground. In that, my weight plus the weight of the person on top of me just shredded the skin on my leg. And then as I tried to get up, some other person ran up in Black Block and just kept punching me until I fell to the ground. and then that person helped me in a chokehold really hard and it was seconds in the video it felt

much longer in my mind maybe from lack of oxygen i'm not sure but it was that was my one near-death experience and i was just thinking about i was thinking about my family and those i cared and loved it was like flashing out almost like like almost how you would see it maybe in a film like one person after another and i was like i'm so sorry that I let you down that I go out this way you know and I could hear like the rest of the Anthony from mob catch up they were running because they I sprinted really fast so they were catching up I knew if I go unconscious and I'm unconscious on the ground there that group will kill me this this was they

were wanting my blood for months from all the reporting I did in 2020 all the mugshots I released all the names all the charges they wanted me dead and before I passed out from being choked some journalists ran up they caught up with the group and the person who was holding me in that chokehold he held me so tight by the way

that the blood vessels in my eyes burst I was able to get out of that chokehold and I ran to the next thing I saw which was the nine's hotel and the door I saw was open So I just ran in, and I was like a madman, barely had my breath, so I was just trying to say the words, call police, call police, call police, that's all I could say. And the staff inside the hotel tried to kick me out to the street. And when they said, you have to get up, I said no, and I sat on the ground.

The only way they were going to get me out was they would have to carry me out. I was not going to go back out there because the mall now were amassing out. this hotel trying to get in and the hotel staff refused to call police and they said you need to wear a mask they actually pulled out from their drawer a black COVID mask and said you need to put this now on so I'm bloody I'm out of breath I'm screaming called police I was so lucky I looked on my body I had my phone still I thought that it was fell out of my pocket when I was tackle on the ground and I still had it. So I used that to call 911.

And the mall gathered outside the hotel. We're pounding on the windows trying to break in. Nazi scum! You see my face, Annie? Andy! You see my face? You see my fucking face! Come on, Andy! Why is it?

Hide him behind the desk. How are you seeing? No! Where I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. If I don't know. Fuck you!

Fuck you! You bitch! If I didn't escape that area, and they would have finished what they would have finished what they were trying to do. to do. So there was a hotel guest who was going up the elevator. He was like, I'm getting the hell out of here. There's like this mob outside. And I ran in after him. And I said, please let me go up with you. It was one of those hotel lifts where it requires a car to go up. So I couldn't just push

numbers. He said, okay, I went up. And I hid in the hotel. And eventually, finally, Portland police officer came up to me, escrowed me out through this back entrance exit that staff used for the hotel. So the mob wasn't by there. There was an ambulance there. It was a police car by ambulance. And then the police escort behind took me to the hospital. The same hospital that I was treated two years earlier. And in there, I saw online, in real time, all the ANSI accounts because they were live streaming outside the hotel. One of the ANSI members, she was, you can see in the video. Andy's in there. And he's in there at Nine's Hotel right now, and she was threatening me. And so they knew I'd left in an ambulance, and they were trying to find out which hospital. So I very narrowly escaped that. I left Portland immediately next day on a flight. I went from safe houses, safe house to safe house, until I couldn't arrange where I would go next.

And the death threats continued. Nobody was ever arrested over the assault I just described, or the 2019 one, or any of the death threats. And I couldn't stay in the US AMR, I was on borrowed time. You know, even when I traveled to other places, I had been recognized before by hostile people. So I... couldn't live in hiding anymore and it paid me a lot to leave the country that my parents found

refuge in it was very weird thought in my mind and uh yeah so i'm speaking to you now as somebody who's still essentially in exile for safety reasons i had this opportunity to speak at the at the white house at a round table about my own experiences and what i've learned and some suggestions I had from the administration. Never thought I'd see it that day. Because I remember for so long, on this Antifa beat, it was like other journalists told me, mentors who I look to, they said, you should pick a new beat.

One, this is really violent. Two, Antifa, they're just, it's, okay, it's a riot. Like, that happens, that shouldn't be your beat, you know? She focused on something else. Now I'm speaking to you in 2025, many years out from these early days of reporting that I did on, Antifa and you can see the glee that is shown whenever a target on the right suffers violence and or death. We've had two assassination attempts on then candidate Donald Trump. And people

kind of just gloss over that the first assassination attempt resulted in somebody being shot in the and dying in front of his family attending a political rally in the United States and that two other people were critically injured. Like people just brush over that. Oh, Trump survived it. Let's move on. Somebody was murdered there and two people are lucky to survive. 2025 has been particularly violent for the left and it was cheered on completely. I mean, right now, people are focused on the attacks on ice because that's directly in front of us, Just a few months ago, Tesla stores were being set on fire, were being shot up. Like, people have forgotten that.

Particularly in Portland, there was the Tesla store in Portland, one, had been shot up several times. And to this day, I don't believe the Portland police have arrested a suspect in the Portland incident. A Tesla store in Salem, Oregon was fired upon and set on fire. The suspect apprehended in that, and I was first to report this, because the legacy media would not. It's that suspect's transgender and was part of this radical, a trans militia type of group. The left is becoming so radicalized and they're supported by such large mainstream institutions and cultures that people have really normalized that violence and they're okay with it. And that was really the thesis of my book that came out now four years ago,

unmasked, that this violence on the left is being mainstream. And it's going to have deadly consequences. So tell me about this, okay? How is it that it's being normalized? You know, you're talking about the media being involved, but the legacy media, but there's more to it than that. What is it that people are trying to wash their hands of? What is that whole thing? You can see some prominent examples of how it's been normalized in mainstream for several years now, but I'll name some clear examples. After the assassination of the United Healthcare CEO, that act of murder was celebrated by the left,

widely celebrated. And individuals online then began dispersing wanted style flyers of other CEOs. And when a suspect was apprehended, Luigi Mangione, He's been made into a hero, a celebrity. At all his court hearings in New York City, people show up to cheer him on outside the courthouse. When recently the terrorism charges were dismissed at the state level, people had a dance party outside. That really reminded me of something that I remember in 2020 in Portland.

As the riots went on by the middle of August, a Trump supporter named Aaron Danielson was assassinated in downtown Portland by a man named Michael Rineau. And he had a manifesto that was posted on Instagram, the gunman. And in it, this is the quote that was in it, I am 100% Antifa. And Michael acted as this volunteer armed security. for the rioters in downtown.

He fled out of state after murdering Aaron Danielson. I remember that night that Mr. Danielson was killed and his body laid in the street about a couple of streets away in front of the Justice Center, which was really the gathering area for the rioters every night. It was announced on a bullhorn.

The victim was described as trash being taken out in a Nazi. And then they cheered and they held a dance party. There was no combination of that at all by anybody in Portland. Of that cruel act of celebrating a really senseless murder in downtown. And Aaron Danielson was just a private individual. He wasn't a big-time activist. or anything so his death was really quite overlooked for all these years but he is just one

victim of many of far-left extremists and in their aftermath of mr. Koch's assassination that same type of celebration broke out on not just the radical left you expect that of them the far left, you expect they're extreme, the radicalized. But on the mainstream left, those who said Mr. Kirk was a fascist, that he expressed hatred, and that it's good that he died, and it'll be good if others like him were no longer around. There's a couple of things I want to pick up on. One is dehumanizing rhetoric. And I think this is, I think, what I'm getting from you here is that that people are involved in creating this and there's some complicity there, even if they're not involved in the violence itself.

And that's what people might be washing their hands of us. Do I understand that, right? Yes. And my point in bringing that up is I'm not calling for guilt by association criminally. I just mean that what do you think happens when day in and day out you participate in a culture where your political targets are labeled as genociders, as fascist, as Nazis, as racist, white supremacists, that need to be killed.

Do you think when you normalize those type of lies against your political target that you just say in an inch just disappears, it just goes away? Like, people take that in. And in a country where access to firearms and deadly weapons are so easy, it doesn't take very much for an individual to take direct action. It was a shooting on another ice facility in the state of Texas, in Dallas. And the gunmen in that case wrote an anti-ice message on a rifle cartridge,

had a note allegedly illuminating his anti-ice views from a left-wing perspective, killed one person who was actually a detainee migrant and injured two others detaining migrants. He was trying to kill ICE agents. The second thing is, is it your contention that all of these, the attacks on ice, the burning of the courthouse in Portland,

the San Diego situation, that all of these are somehow connected, somehow coordinated even, because some of the coordination, at least in each individual instance, seem to be quite advanced, I would say, right? But I think you're suggesting there's something bigger happening. It's more so ideological cross-pollination, which is actually very important to the agendas and goals of the violent militant left.

They all share a common enemy. It's people like you and I. It's people who believe in the institutions of America, who believe in the idea of America and our Constitution. They want to see it destroyed. They would like to see themselves put in power in how they envision society next is different. But they're not too concerned with getting to that point yet.

It's much easier to destroy an attack now. The far left in Antifa is unique, way in that Antifa encouraged their supporters to get arrested, to be violent, get arrested, get it captured on camera, one, for propaganda purposes, but two, to get individuals to become party, to lawsuits, lawfare against police departments and cities. In liberal jurisdictions, the Democrat-run city council will vote to settle, settle, settle, million no problem, 10 million no problem, 20 million no problem. Cities across America have settled. So those who were arrested for rioting get rewarded with money. So the

funding comes from all these places. And there's also an international element as well, which I've been discussing a lot in the capital here. The International Antifa Defense Fund, which takes money from donors all over the world. to provide cash support to anti-familitants internationally so it's it's not all clandestine that's my point you can see the cash up accounts the Venmo accounts you don't obviously see who's donating they're all choosing to hide their donation but how it's being done is in the open or through these non-profits that get money you can pull up their tax funds. You can see where they get the money. A lot of it's from the

state, Oregon, Washington. It's run completely by Democrats. They can decide how to disperse grant money. And they give it to people on the radical left quite often. Tell me this, okay? How does it feel to be sitting at the round table in front of the president of the United States telling your story, having the Attorney General of the United States say they're going to take apart this, I don't know if organization or decentralized grouping of cells or however you would describe it. It was very hard to believe and I was overwhelmed with feelings of gratitude. Myself and others have suffered a lot for reporting on this beat and for a long time it fell on

deaf ears. We finally have an administration that as busy as it is dealing with things domestically, internationally, found time to get us together to invite me along to share what I know. It's going to be really hard for them to dismantle these networks legally, criminally, and on the PR front as well immediately when Trump had signaled a few weeks ago that he was going to designate Antifa as a domestic terrorist organization, the media machine fell into what you would expect, which is to deny that Antifa is organized, deny that Antifa exists, and to blame the victims of

their violence for what happened to them. It's their playbook. I want to say it's disgusting, but I've almost kind of moved on from that view. It's more so it's a depravity that I don't want to think about anymore. It's to be expected. And

I hope my reporting and my suggestions can give investigators some potential ideas for tools for what they can use to dismantle these networks because they're going to go underground. seeing a bit of it. Some of the Antifa Council began deleting their social media presence,

the International Antifa Defense Fund announced that it was shutting down and relocating its operations to another country. Some individuals have left the U.S. I think Antifa's, they're going to try to lay low, depend on the media to run cover for them, and hope that they get a Democrat in office again. If there was one or a couple of things that you would want the average American to know about Antifa that they probably have no idea about right now, what would that be? I think the question that an average American, and I'm speaking to, let's say, maybe a normie, someone not politically plugged in or they're liberal, the question you should ask yourself is when these people claim to be anti-fascist, the follow-up question should be, and in furtherance of what?

If you take them at face value, and you have to ask them, you're against this, but what are you for? And what anti-fah is for is violence, destruction, murder, and abolishment of the liberal democratic order. So it's quite actually ironic in many ways that Antifa act as shock troops for people who claim to care about those institutions and values and concepts. I was just asked people to, you don't have to listen to my own words, but perhaps watch some of the videos of some of these violence. And you can see how organized it is. Watch that and then ask yourself, what is that in furtherance of? Well, Andy No, it's such a pleasure to have had you on again. My pleasure.

Thank you all for joining Andy No and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Janja Kellick.