American Thought Leaders - CCP Power Plays in Tariff Talks Explained | John Moolenaar, Chairman of the House CCP Committee

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

Rep. John Moolenaar (R-Mich.) has been spearheading efforts in Congress to combat the threat posed by the Chinese regime to American interests—from economic warfare to espionage and infiltration—as chairman of the House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party.“With rare earths, China is basically firing a loaded gun ... on our economy,” he says.He’s pushing a bill that would phase in a 100 percent tariff on all strategic goods from China. The tariff would not just penalize China but also incentivize “other countries, as well as the United States, to invest in this almost as if it’s a Defense Production Act activity.”Beyond rare earth minerals, what leverage does the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) have exactly in trade talks with the United States? What will the CCP’s strategy be? How should President Donald Trump respond to the CCP’s coercive tactics and its recent attempts to gain additional leverage?And what can America do to extricate itself from its dependence on China for some of its most critical manufacturing technologies?Moolenaar points out that the CCP is using its leverage not only over trade but also over Chinese nationals studying or working in America via its extensive United Front operations.“Under their recent national security laws, any Chinese national who doesn’t carry out the will of the Chinese Communist Party, no matter where they are in the world, on U.S. soil or somewhere else in the world, [is] in violation of national security laws,” Moolenaar says.On the other hand, is the position of the CCP really secure? And what about Chinese leader Xi Jinping’s position in particular? What signs of dissatisfaction and unrest are there among the Chinese population?Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

Well, with rare earths, you know, China is basically firing a loaded gun, if you will, on our economy. As chairman of the House Select Committee on the CCP, Congressman John Mullenar has been spearheading efforts in Congress to combat the Chinese regime's threat to American interests, from espionage and infiltration to economic warfare. What cards will the CCP try to play in trade negotiations with the Trump administration? I'm watching them refusing to buy soybeans right now. You know going to that agreement that one of their tactics will be, well, we'll buy a certain amount of American soybeans. Aren't we being cooperative?

They're going to do that on rare earth. They may release some political prisoners, all with the idea of see how reasonable we are. Pushing back on the CCP is the only way to get them to stop this malign activity. This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Yanya Kellick. Chairman John Molinar, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders. Thank you for having me, Jan. Good to be with you today. You are calling on 100% tariffs on communist China.

Explain to me why and why this whole rare earth scenario right now is different from what we've seen in the past. Well, with rare earths, you know, China is basically firing a loaded gun, if you will, on our economy. And what that means is, you know, we've always known they have this leverage and these critical minerals and rare earths that, you know, are used in televisions, phones, computers, defense systems. And they have over 90% of the market in, you know, a monopolistic fashion. They use coercive methods to gain that leverage. But they basically said they will cut our economy off from those critical minerals. And so when it comes to rare earths, it's something where we need additional supplies. We need reliable partners.

And one way to do that is through tariffs because it ultimately, it penalizes China for this aggressive, outrageous action. But it also incentivizes other countries. as well as the United States to invest in this almost as if it's a defense production activity where it's we cannot let our military industrial base, our economy, be at the whims of what Xi Jinping decides on any given day and how he wants to leverage power against the United States. You know, and it's not just, you know, America. It's like there's basically there's very kind of minute requirements for any use of particular

of these critical minerals. I've never seen such a requirement or attempted requirements. I mean, well, it's a very aggressive, threatening action. The good news is it really wakes up the world to what Xi Jinping is capable of doing to leverage whatever advantage he wants in a negotiation. And so when we look at like-minded countries who use these materials in their supply chain, they're going to have the same reaction we do is we need a better partner than the Chinese Communist Party. Well, I mean, and the Netherlands has actually nationalized a chipmaker in response. I mean, that's almost unheard of. Well, you know, the Netherlands has a lot at stake.

You know, they are an important ally of the United States. They've seen how China is fueling Russia's war in Ukraine. That's a wake-up call. China says they're neutral. but at the same time they're providing materials that are used in warfare, they're buying energy from Russia and propping up their wartime economy. And so I think in Europe there's a growing awareness that, you know, the idea that China was going to become more democratic, more freedom-loving as they became wealthier, a reliable economic partner, people are becoming more aware of this. And the Netherlands has,

some of the best semiconductor manufacturing equipment in the world. And they have a lot at stake to make sure that those technologies aren't stolen by the CCP and aren't used ultimately to drive out of business some of the capabilities they have in the Netherlands. Explain to me, Chairman Molnar, how it is that China, under the Communist Party, actually got this unbelievable level of control over such a critical set of components in our entire, you know, economy and technology. They view it as a strategic asset. They also have leveraged their capabilities in other countries in Africa and other nations where they use child labor and exploit the different countries, you know, mining and capabilities. And they've also

developed good technology and processing because part of its mining, part of its processing. And countries like the United States, you know, we were of the belief that, you know, some of these technologies, we couldn't do them quite as inexpensively as China could. And so why not rely on them in our supply chain? But what we realized is they have terrible environmental processes, terrible human rights, abuses, and now we are dependent on. them from some of our most critical manufacturing technologies and they have a dumping strategy to corner these I mean it happened with steel right and I think it happened with rare earths as well it is and what they do is they're very

strategic and gaining a position of dominance and then when a country tries to establish its own capabilities in this area they severely subsidize and undercut the pricing and drive the other entity out of business so it's you know state state-sponsored manipulation of the market and that's why they've been able to secure this dominant monopolistic position you know you mentioned Xi Jinping earlier and you know there's sort of been very unusual things happening within the chinese communist party for example you know this recent purge of nine top military leaders people that you know are friendly to she and so there's And are you watching this on the committee?

And what are your thoughts? Well, we are closely monitoring it. We know that there is a huge problem with corruption in the Chinese military, the PLA. And that certainly plays into this, just culturally, the way their military has had bribes and other means of corruption. But some of these situations where these are close allies of She, you wonder if there's something more going on there.

And so we are monitoring it. It's premature to say exactly what the rationale and the causes, but it certainly shows instability in their military. And then the question is, does that make the world safer or more dangerous when you have all this chaos going on in the PLA? You know, one of the arguments that I keep hearing is that, you know, China is so connected into the global economy. Indeed, this was their strategy to be deeply interconnected with the global economy. It's almost like a too big to fail scenario, right? Where they say, look, well, you know, you don't want to create this instability, Mr. President, you know, what about these tariffs? You know, you might create too much instability. You might create, you know,

huge economic problems in the world. To me, it's that too big to fail argument, that if we create any problems for the CCP, any meaningful problems, that could lead to big problems for us. Therefore, just leave them alone. How do you respond to those arguments? Well, our economies are clearly intertwined as is our economies throughout the world. When you think of the Cold War and you think of the relationship with the Soviet Union, we were never intertwined in economically the way we are with China. So it does make it more complicated. But when they show their willingness to leverage these economic relationships in such a way that is not in America's interest, it really does show our need to develop independent supply chains. And I applaud President Trump is working very

hard to separate and strengthen our resiliency of our supply chains. But you can see how they do that around the world. They have something called the Belt and Road Initiative in the developing world where they fund major infrastructure projects, use Chinese labor, build these needed infrastructure projects in the third world, and ultimately create a debt-trap dependency with developing nations. And so that's a concern as well, because then they leverage that for their own policy objectives. Well, and there's a growing interest, for example, in a number of African nations to kind of realize that this was not done with best intentions, that this is something that they, you know, essentially maybe want to even kick them out.

And what we've seen as China portrays itself as a very benign, friendly, let's just have a win-win scenario, when ultimately their actions are very different. It's win-lose, extract whatever you can from the situation that they're in. Yeah, that's actually, let's comment on that for just a moment, this win-lose idea. I mean, I've had a number of guests on the show where we discussed this concept that the CCP doesn't really believe in win-win. Do you agree with this? Well, they would portray themselves in that vein that they believe in win-win,

but ultimately they are looking at a much longer time frame and ultimately it's win-lose because what they want to do is be the center most dominant power in the world and they're willing to wait 50 years 100 years when you consider the timeline that they operate under they aren't under the quarterly report kind of scenario that we are in the private sector here so in terms of an economic strategy what they do is they identify a key sector that they want to dominate and what they do is they invite other companies in to participate and extract every bit of learning they can and then ultimately they figure out a way to kick that foreign country company or entity out and undercut with prices with manufacturing capabilities steal economic secrets and and use that to drive that business out of business. And so you're seeing in Europe right now, the automotive industry is caving to the Chinese pressure in that area. We're seeing it at other fields as well. And critical minerals is a key area for that. And unfortunately, the challenge with

that is it touches so many different aspects of our economy and our national security. So one of the things your committee has looked at quite a bit is money flowing from America to communist China in various capacities. And I might even argue that this strategy that the Chinese have had, this long-term one that you described me, actually in some ways really hasn't worked because one of the key pillars of their economy, which was real estate, has collapsed essentially. And they're left with basically one pillar, which is this export. So as the tariffs are, you know, have been increasing and so forth, they've been flooding all sorts of countries with their products because essentially that's their whole economy is based on this export now. That doesn't strike me as a particularly robust way to run an economy. And, I mean, it also, you know, suggests some vulnerability. And I'm wondering if you're tracking this.

Yeah, we sure are. And you're absolutely right. You know, when you have a small group of central planners who are setting out these objectives and not allowing a free market, but simply, you know, picking winners and losers, you do have that scenario like they have in the real estate, you know, market in China. And you're right, that's absolutely an area where they are failing miserably in their economy. you know they also have a lot of young people that are unemployed and and basically opting out of the workforce and they also have demographic issues because of their one child policy and so there are many troubling signs for the chinese economy again the question is does that make it safer for the world or because of that pressure will the CCP become more aggressive and

and doing the kinds of aggressive, oppressive acts that they're taking now. Well, and so here's the question, right? Deng Xiaoping actually kind of made this contract with the Chinese people. You can make money, but stay out of politics. Politics is the parties. And if you touch that, we destroy it.

But making money, go for it, right? But now, as you've kind of described, we're kind of in this situation where that making money part, it feels like that, if you want to call it a social contract, I think of some sort of coercive social contract, it's kind of breaking. So it's an unusual time. And we have things.

Like, for example, I saw that the committee highlighted these recent arrests of the Zion Church pastor and multiple people there. Again, the question is sort of why now these underground churches have been, you know, our function in China. And, of course, they're repressed in various ways. But this is a very prominent church because it's connected with, for example, a Hudson Institute. the daughter of the lead pastor is married to a Hudson Institute scholar. Sure. I was musing myself about whether, you know, this isn't an attempt to gain leverage. This is kind of how they think.

I'm curious what your thoughts are. Yeah, I think it's a combination of things. I think to your point about the Chinese economy, who is participating and who is benefiting, it truly appears that the Chinese Communist Party is most interested, not in helping the people across the country, but rather staying in power and consolidating power. And so when you see the actions they've taken through national security laws, their surveillance society, and in Hong Kong, the oppressive imprisonment of Jimmy Lai,

when you consider that they're rounding up pastors, it really shows their insecurities because what they're doing is targeting people that don't buy in to, you know, the Xi Jinping thought, the Chinese Communist Party of ideology that really seeks to replace legitimate faith. And so they are surveilling, they're penalizing people who want to live out their relationship with their creator and trying to insert the Chinese Communist Party in the middle of that and almost take its place. So to me, it shows that,

you know, rather than allowing a faith in God, they're saying you have to have a faith in the party and the party is the God. So why do you think there's increased repression of Christians all of a sudden in China and very prominently? Is it because of this kind of leverage thing? Or is it because of this social contract or is it both? I guess that's, you said both at the beginning. I'm just curious. I think there's a short term, you know, with Xi Jinping plans to meet with President Trump at some point. And I think they are putting every bit of leverage on the table so that in a negotiation they can in some way relent in a small way and still keep their negotiated gains in the negotiation. So I do think there's a strategic aspect. So you see that

with critical minerals. You see it with the religious persecution. You see it with other, you know, export controls, them denying Nvidia H20 chips. You know, so they're setting up this negotiation line, but I think in the long term, which is even more concerning, is you see that a systematic oppression of people of faith, and it could be Falun Gong, it could be the Uyghers, it could be Tibetans, it could be Christians, you see, you know, mosques, crescents, you know, being removed, and you see a only people who will be part. of a state-approved religion that is controlled by the CCP will be allowed to practice. And to me, this is what we saw in the Soviet Union where they tried to extinguish God from the people.

And over time, they can have a short term, but I would bet on God in that situation. It's generally good to bet, generally get to bet on God. Let's talk about some of these extreme human rights violations that are happening in China, particularly typically focused on people of faith. I'm writing a book as we speak. I know we've talked about it, Killed to Order, about the forced organ harvesting industry. I'm not some super expert, but there are incredible people that have come before me whose work I am referencing, including the China Tribunal, of course.

And then also, it's about using this horrible forced organ harvesting. harvesting industry as a way to understand what the Chinese Communist Party is all about. It's an extreme situation. It's state-sanctioned. I mean, I call it murder for Oregon. Some people feel that's hyperbolic, but I feel it's accurate. And happening at a huge scale, and while it started with Falun Gong, it seems to be shifting to the Uyghurs and possibly even other groups, these, you know, that are the most targeted groups by the regime, the people where there's large amounts of people incarcerated and they can have like a bank of people to kill for these organs, kill to orders, the name of the book. I want to discuss this because

your committee and the CECC is one of the very few groups and Congress that is actually addressing this issue meaningfully. And I mean, and most recently you're actually calling for the State Department to implement some policy to challenge this. So tell me about that. Well, let me start at a basic level and we're celebrating our 250th anniversary of our Declaration of Independence. And when you look at the foundation of this country and when you look at the consent of the governed, that the government's job is to secure the rights of the people. And you contrast that with a government that doesn't respect that. isn't trying to secure its citizens' rights. It's simply trying to extract what it can from the

people and without their consent. Those are two diametrically opposed regimes, if you will, or philosophies or systems. And in that case, then human beings become an instrument of the state for whatever political agenda that the leadership has. And so when you consider You know, I found it interesting, you know, Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin talking about wanting to live to 150 years and, you know, all these advances in science. You know, it's creepily eerie when you think of, you know, and no one likes to compare things to Nazi Germany, but when you think of Mengele, and the research that was being done in the name of science, and when you have a government that simply looks, people as human beings as instruments of their power and their will. And I'll be curious to read your book because there will always be a market for people that want to act selfishly and have money to pay for something that is illicit or illegal.

And then when you have a government that's willing to implement that strategically because of their political agenda, it is very concerned. and it really shines a spotlight on the problems with the Chinese Communist Party. It's really interesting that you mention this, because when it comes to sort of interpreting this hot mic moment, right? In the West, we're just kind of shocked

that you would have Vladimir Putin talking about continual organ transplantation to achieve immortality and Xi Jinping responding. 150 years is kind of the target. I mean, I'm paraphrasing. But that was basically the conversation. Many Chinese that I've spoken with don't believe that it could possibly have been an accident, okay, because they believe that the Chinese regime is so strictly controlled,

especially around information, you know, they're the masters of information warfare, right? So one of the theories is that this is a kind of a signaling, right, to people that have this moral, let's say, questionable, highly questionable morals to say, look, we have this project of 150 years, you can get on board if you have cash, and we can work together, you know, something like that. Another one that I heard also was just simply, this is she signaling to his peers who are clearly gunning for him with these, you know,

removals of the top military that are loyal to him and so forth, that actually, folks, I'm going to be around for 150 years. So just watch your back. So it's very interesting how people in that system view, you know, these scenarios so differently. Well, but either way, it's about leverage, in power, and fear. It's about, you know, kind of using all the resources to accomplish a goal by the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party. And then the question is, what is that goal?

You know, one of the things that strikes me about, you know, people of faith, and you mentioned the pastors, I don't know if it was 20 or 30 pastors that were put in detention. That's right. And one of the ironies, of this is that people who believe the teachings of the Bible are the best citizens you could ask for because they believe in accountability, they believe in respect for government officials and trying to be responsible citizens in the community where they live. It's only when an entity, a government, puts itself in the place of the relationship with God, that there's a problem. And so when you consider that, you know, the higher authority of God is what pastors respond to, that's why they become a threat because the Chinese Communist Party is trying to insert itself in that role. You know, it's also fascinating that you say that because this is, you know, when the Chinese and Zhengzaman began to persecute the Falun Gong,

for quite a number of years, the Falun Gong, you can see this in their writings, basically saw this like a colossal mistake, right? Like, we're practicing truthfulness, compassion, forbearance. We're not in any way like the things that you say we are. They were using 1930s Germany to mention that, you know, propaganda against them, right? They're, no, we're reasonable people. And it was only after a while they realized the problem was the system and not, you know, because that relationship was more important to them,

the one that you just described than, you know, the state power. And I think these things will be the undoing of the party ultimately. Yeah, I think you'd want citizens who believe in integrity and respect for one another. I mean, to me, those are the people, those are the neighbors you want to have. Those are the people you want to work with. And the idea that that's no longer beneficial, but rather a threat, to me, seems like a huge problem for the Chinese Communist Party. I want to talk a bit about what your committee has been doing relative to this Oregon harvesting. Because again, so I've been covering this issue for 20 years. At some point along the

way, I kind of almost lost hope because of this. People just recoil at it. They don't want to deal with it. But in the last few years, it's changed. I mean, there's a survivor that has come forth. There's, you know, I've seen U.K. articles in the U.K. that are, I wish I was thinking, I wish I had written that article. It was so well done, so deeply, such a deep understanding. So it's changed and there's three pieces of legislation, two have passed the House. And of course, on your committee, Congressman Neil Dunn is leading the Block Act, which I'm going to get you to tell me about because I know you're a co-sponsor of that. But these are profound to me, having covered this issue for selling pieces of legislation.

And then you're also asking for State Department rewards for justice of that approach to dealing with this. So kind of, you know, frame out for me what you guys are doing with this. It's really significant. There's a few things that we need. One of the advantages of our committee is we're able to highlight issues of concern and focus because in a situation like this, it's almost unbelievable to think that human beings are doing this to other human beings. And so we need to raise the awareness and have people understand the depth of this problem. And so our committee being focused on the competition with the Chinese Communist Party,

both all the human rights, economic, national security, is able to do this. And we've got some champions on the committee, like a Neil Dunn and a Gus Billeracus, people who care deeply. There are also groups that have been working on these things for years, but because it doesn't fit neatly into one committee jurisdiction or another, it takes time. And so our committee's been able to highlight these bills, and work to get them passage as a force multiplier for all the committees in the House of Representatives.

And that's why I think we've been successful. But when it comes, these are very complicated issues to get politically accomplished because you need a broad coalition of people. You mentioned in Great Britain and some of the work that was being done writing, at the same time you have that going on, you also have China trying to develop a super embassy in London that would be used for espionage for all sorts of malign activities. And you have the government there refusing to prosecute two parliamentary staffers who were charged with spying and giving secretive information to a Chinese spy. And so when you

when it took on a technicality i might add it's not like the evidence wasn't well developed exactly like that you know MI5 was speaking out on it and how disappointed they were because they work you know very hard to get credible sources and investigations and when they gather that information and in my view you know pushing back on the CCP is the only way to get them to stop this malign activity you know for years there was this idea of well if we engage with them they're a different culture and so we need to kind of work within their cultural norms and the reality is the only thing i've seen is you know what president reagan used to say peace through strength and and to me that's where we are on these kinds of issues where we need to help the

american people the people around the world understand and that's why your book is going to be an important contribution. But then we have to have the fortitude to take action, a strong action that sends a message that says, you know, we're not going to allow it. The State Department has different levers. And then the other thing that's going to be very important to me is when President Trump goes to meet with Xi Jinping with other leaders around the world, we want him to bring up these issues in a way that puts them at the forefront. I'll just mention a couple. So the block organ transplant purchases from China Act. This is something that a bill that you're on. There's actually, you know, years ago in Israel,

something like this was passed. They have socialized medicine there. This was one of the earliest pieces of evidence that I saw was, you know, the head of the Israeli transformer, head of the Israeli transplant association, had a patient that went to China and got a heart in two weeks. And that's what got him to lobby for these laws to be passed. But it took. years for states to start passing these types of laws, which are basically laws that will, you know, prevent Medicare and insurance from paying for these transplants in China. That's just one way. How hard or easy is it for you at the moment to move bills like this? Well, it's difficult, A, because, you know, people don't want to acknowledge that this is happening. And then you've got

institutions that are collaborating and some of our best institutions collaborate with some of the entities involved in this so when it came to you know we did different investigations you know Harvard university you know great program for leadership training and all that was training a chinese paramilitary organization that was involved in the uh genocide uh with the wegers and You look at situations like that now, you know, then an institution may say, well, we weren't aware of it, or no, we were training a different aspect of that. China is so clever at, you know, changing the names of organizations, of endearing itself, you know, and then saying, oh, there's nothing happening over here. We've seen businesses with their supply chains, some of our best manufacturers. relying on, you know, Chinese batteries made by cattle, which is a Chinese battery company

that is affiliated with forced labor as well as the Chinese military. We've seen investor dollars from Wall Street, some of our biggest institutions, J.P. Morgan Chase, Bank of America, funding the IPO of cattle and the Hong Kong Exchange. And you say, we are, our institutions are being complicit in this, and we need that to stop. And so part of it's creating an awareness. People of good, you know, goodwill are not going to want to be part of something like this. But it's persuading them that this is wrong and then having a legal framework that says it's also illegal. So let's jump back to this, you know, what's dubbed the trade war. How do you see this going now that there's been this, you know, dramatic escalation and now there's been, you know, kind of a falling back, it seems. And as you mentioned, this leverage is being built. How do you think this plays out?

Well, you know, we're in the midst of a negotiation. It's very difficult to see how ultimately we'll get to a, you know, China's not going away. The CCP is in charge right now in China, and so to a certain extent, President Trump has to negotiate. They are going to use every bit of leverage in those negotiations. My view is this, you know, President Trump is a very good negotiator. He's going to use every tool possible to gain a win for the American people and for the free world. The challenge is whatever agreement comes out of that, China doesn't really have a good track record of following that agreement and keeping their word. And so we saw that in the first Trump administration where, you know, they agreed to certain things, buying a certain amount of, you know, agriculture products, other things. They really didn't follow through on that.

And so the question is, how do you hold them accountable when they don't follow through on those agreements? You know, I'm watching them refusing to buy soybeans right now. You know going to that agreement that one of their tactics will be, well, we'll buy a certain amount of American soybeans. Aren't we being cooperative when they set up the entire problem to begin with? They're going to do that on rare earths. They're going to do that on other issues. You know, they may release some political prisoners all with the idea of, see how reasonable we are. I believe America needs to really stand with a firm resolve at this time

and say, that's not acceptable. These ways of behaving are not acceptable for a friend and someone who wants to be a responsible partner in the free world. Well, just something that the CCP has been doing, which is something that you've covered extensively in the committee, is what, what's dubbed transnational repression, basically targeting people of interest, the Chinese regime is interested, on American soil. Famously, there's these police stations, right, in China towns that keep people in line,

flesh out what the committee has been doing in this area. Well, we've been highlighting what China has, the CCP has their United Front operations, and they portray themselves as cultural gatherings where, you know, people can get together and celebrate long-time customs, food, you know, different aspects of life. But what they also do is they fund organizations and have a CCP control of those organizations. And the challenge here is that under, you know, their recent national security laws, any Chinese national who, who does, you know,

doesn't carry out the will of the Chinese Communist Party no matter where they are in the world, on U.S. soil or somewhere else in the world, they are in violation of national security laws. And so basically you're saying that no matter where you are, if you don't do what we tell you to do, you are a traitor to this country. And so the leverage that they can exist through these United Front operations, their goal is to gain information, strategic information, and to capture leaders. And we've seen this happening in New York politics where, you know, aids to the governor. We're influencing the policy because of the relationship with the Chinese Communist Party. And so they also use

that to intimidate people who are speaking out against the governor. So the Hong Kongers, the people who, you know, students who are speaking out on this face, you know, retaliation from others and even their families back in mainland China are threatened. So it's a very concerning practice. I believe the important thing for us is to communicate to Chinese nationals here in the United States that says, A, we don't want you to be under that pressure. that leverage of the Chinese Communist Party. If you're experiencing that, come talk to us, because we don't want that to happen here in the United States. You're here, and we want you to be successful

in what you're doing. If you're learning as a student, if you're part of a business operation, but don't buy into this threat from the Chinese Communist Party, because there'd be consequences if you do. And we will be prosecuting you if you do. But in the meantime, if you're feeling that threat come forward and let us know. Well, you know, one scenario that always comes to my mind,

you know, we've been sponsors of the Shen Yun performance for years, right? There's two Chinese operatives in jail right now because they try to bribe, well, it was actually an FBI agent, but an IRS, someone masquerading as an IRS agent to revoke Shen Yun's nonprofit status. Like that's the kind of stuff that's done, even beyond this kind of direct threat targeting. It's of unbelievable. It really is. And, you know, and Shen Yun, I still want to see a performance because I have not yet seen a performance, but I'm just told how beautiful and how fantastic it is and what an eye-opening experience and the history involved is fantastic. Obviously, a threat to the Chinese Communist Party. But even members of Congress who have attended those performances

have received some kind of threats and intimidation because they attended. So if you can imagine the Chinese Communist Party coming over and threatening United States members of Congress from seeing a production like that, it's outrageous and it's unacceptable. Well, I'll please allow me to host you in January then. That sounds good. Let's dig into, I actually did an AI search. You know, they're incredibly useful tools for research. And I got them to basically look through and identify for me what you guys have worked on.

You've basically covered almost every area, as far as I could tell, in the China-U.S. relationship. You know, it's been probably the most meaningful part of my time in Congress because we've been working in a bipartisan way to really understand and reset this relationship with China. And so the areas that we've covered, as you mentioned, economic, national security, human rights, space, all these different areas that, you know, there is a competition going, and it's really important to the United States win this competition. competition for the freedoms that we enjoy here as well as the benefits, economic benefits around the world of a system that, you know, has respected the rule of law and sovereignty of nations and, you know, trade that is not coercive and follows rules. And so we are pushing back on that. You know, I tend to be a free trader, but you want to try.

have free trade with free nations who are participating in the same rules. And so we've been able to highlight some of the inconsistencies and the gross violations of the Chinese Communist Party with the goal of hopefully they come to a different place in their philosophy, in their direction, and their coercive activity with their neighbors and around the world. So the term strategic competition is in the name of your committee. Do you view China under the Communist Party as an adversary, an enemy, a competitor? What do you call them? You know, I would say they are definitely an adversary.

They have a very different view of the world. They have taken actions as an enemy, but they are also a trade partner. And in my view, our goal should be to focus on being the best America that we can be as leaders here in this country and around the world and highlight the benefits that we enjoy because of our founder's view of government serving the people and not the way the other way around and show the benefits of that and the advantage of the of that rather than an authoritarian regime where people are subjected to some of the worst in terms of government oppression at home and they want to expand that abroad. And so we need to win that competition for that reason. I love the people of China. Unfortunately, the Chinese Communist Party has set itself up as in place of God. as a regime that's willing to do anything to accomplish its political goals to the detriment of the

Chinese people. What you're saying, Chairman, is something that reminds me of an interview I did with a scholar at Stanford named Changshu, who's written an absolutely fascinating, incredibly detailed book on, he calls it institutional genes, the DNA of communism, of communist parties and how the Chinese Communist Party is different from the Soviet, for example, and so forth. The insight he has is remarkable. And that's basically that a totalitarian communist regime, it destroys all civil society. And this is kind of odd.

The moment you say it, it's kind of obvious, right? But it's like the subterfuge, he would say, the subterfuge of the CCP was they pretended they were authoritarian, kind of like, you know, Taiwan was able to shift until the most vibrant democracies in the world, right? In fact, this is one of the reasons the CCP dislikes Taiwan so much because it shows what the potential of the Chinese people as a free people, right? Well, Chengkang Shu has been able to identify methodically, academically, how the thing that makes America, you know, I guess to Tokovil argue this,

the thing that made America the best is this civil society, emergent groups of people coming up from the grassroots, figuring out problems. communist regimes do not tolerate that at all. And he has some incredibly fascinating insights into why Chinese communism has managed to work longer. And I know someone, a suggestion, someone you may want to consider in the future for testifying. That sounds fascinating. You know, as you were speaking, I was thinking about the family and how, you know, that's such an important institution in America around the world.

And when you have a government dictating, you know, a one-child policy, and you see the abject failure that has occurred and the brutal regime that implemented that, and now they are finally recognizing what a problem that was, and now they're trying to give all sorts of financial incentives for people to have more children. But if you're a family in China, how would you ever trust that the government? I mean, one day they're telling you one, now they're saying we want multiple children. You know, it's just a perfect example of what you're saying about the Chinese Communist Party crushing institutions, whether it's faith, family, the free market, across the board.

Well, Chairman, as we finish up, what's next for the country? committee. Any kind of hints you can give us here on camera? Well, we're we're going to dig in further on the critical minerals topic because that is so vital economically for our national security. And it also involves a lot of the human rights violations because what China is doing around the world to secure those rare earths, you know, is gross human rights violations and Africa and other countries. So we're going to dig in deeply on that. We're also looking at, you know, American manufacturing

and how we can revitalize that. President Trump has really wanted to bring more economic growth here, the United States, and, again, securing our supply chains. We're going to do more on, you know, these medicines that we are dependent on because the rare earths are one example of supply chain vulnerabilities. When you look at the amount of medicine that we get that's manufactured in China, and their willingness to leverage that and supply chain dependencies for their agenda, that's also a huge concern.

So we're going to keep working on these areas and appreciate the chance to talk with you today. Well, Chairman John Mullenard, it's such a pleasure to have had you on. Thank you very much, John. Thank you all for joining Chairman John Mulanar and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Janja Kellick.