American Thought Leaders - I Met the Syrian President, and Here’s What I Learned | Rabbi Abraham Cooper

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

A few weeks ago, Rabbi Abraham Cooper, a prominent advocate for religious freedom and human rights, was invited to the Presidential Palace in Damascus, Syria, alongside fellow religious freedom advocate Johnnie Moore.They had an intimate meeting with the new president of Syria, Ahmed al-Sharaa.In this episode, the rabbi shares what he learned about al-Sharaa and whether he believes a peace between Syria and Israel is possible in the near future.“There’s a term in Hebrew: It’s called Kabdehu ve Hashdehu, [which] means show respect and verify,“ he says. ”So, this is not a ‘kumbaya’ moment. This is a moment where there’s great leverage.”Cooper previously chaired the U.S. Commission for International Religious Freedom and also serves as associate dean and director of global social action for the Simon Wiesenthal Center.Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

How do we know he can trust you and how do we know that you can deliver? That was and is and should be in the front of our minds. Recently, Rabbi Abraham Cooper was invited to the presidential palace in Damascus, alongside fellow religious freedom advocate Johnny Moore, where they had an intimate meeting with the controversial new president of Syria, Ahmed al-Shera. Of the two hours that we spent together, a full 40 minutes dealt with Israel. And I thought that his main message was, we're not enemies. Cooper was chair of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom

and is currently director of Global Social Action for the Simon Wiesenthal Center. How might Syria's relationship with the U.S. evolve is peace between Syria and Israel attainable in the near future? There's a term in Hebrew. Kabdehu to Hashdehu. Show respect and verify. This is not a kumbaya moment. This is a moment where there's great leverage created by a president who thinks out of the box in many ways is a contrarian.

This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Yankee Kelleck. Rabbi Abraham Cooper, such a pleasure to have you back on American Thought Leaders. Great to see you again. A dear friend and being out here in California, it's always refreshing to be with people who are promoting thought. Thank you for that. Well, you know, you just had a truly incredible meeting. You met the president of Syria, Ahmed al-Shara. I mean, this is someone who's a former official of al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups.

On the other hand, he seems to be bringing some sort of stability as well as openness, or at least that's what certain people are saying. You're one of the people that I'd be really interested in knowing what you think here. Tell me about the meeting. Right. So just before we get to the meeting, I want to acknowledge and thank my close friend, Reverend Johnny Moore, who was originally contacted by their foreign minister when the sanctions were still in place. We had an hour

meeting across the street from the UN, and I remember Pastor Moore's first two questions, because they're still totally relevant. How do we know he can trust you, and how do we know that you can deliver. That was and is and should be in the front of our minds. I know it is Secretary of State, who knows a great deal about the history of Syria. And I'm sure it's a factor also for the president. I would say about the person that I met together with Reverend Moore for two hours in the presidential palace in Damascus, kind of out-of-body experience, if you were.

rule. Well, I walked away from that meeting convinced that we were really looking at a unicorn. I think despite his historic footprint, which is almost all terrorism, he is someone who understands the task ahead if the nation of Syria is going to have a future, that it needs an extreme makeover in terms of its infrastructure. structure and everything else associated with with growing a proper country and um i also think that right now the country is in no shape to sort of taking any sort of active or leading role in fighting any of the if you will the big boys in the block and that includes obviously turkey which is close the Iranian still which is still dangerous uh Israel uh which

The term he kept using was de-conflicting. Israel is not an enemy. He wants to deconflict. The leader that we met was someone who I think is mostly focused on the domestic realities. He's been in now for at least about a half a year plus. And everyone is waiting to see, okay, what are you going to do for the people? What are you going to do for the nation? and do you have the wherewithal to actually, you know, stitch together a country,

which right now is totally a fraction? The other issue, especially after we met the next day, with a group of around 20 leading Christian leaders from around Syria who came to meet with us in Damascus, and we're even one or two people from Beirut, is how many of his allies, the people who came with him to Syria, and that lightning, quick, amazing, stocking, if you will, development, how many of them share his broader vision? And I think that is almost as important as,

is this guy really serious of pulling our chain? I happen to be in New York the day of the meeting, and I joined in that meeting, but I had a previously scheduled meeting at the U.N. U.S. mission just around the corner. And when I went afterwards, I said, well, I came to discuss a couple of issues. Let me tell you what happened in the past hour with, you know, with the foreign minister of Syria. And the reaction of three of the U.S. diplomats in the room was quite interesting, including

one very seasoned diplomat, which was, are you kidding us? Do you see what the Taliban did to us? We took off the sanctions. They made all sorts of promises. And a few weeks later, girls couldn't go back to school. I'm sure they represented the kind of advice that President Trump was getting across the board. And I think that, you know, President Trump's taking a chance, wants to change the game. And there is no doubt that if the sanctions stay in place, I don't know if a united Syria would actually ever be possible. And also, in the other hand, some of the basic questions that the Christians posed to us, they have in schools, Christian schools in Syria among the best, and the people there were wondering, will an Islamist

curriculum be forced upon those schools? Now, if that happens, I think you'll see even faster brain drain. I think you'll see probably many Christians leaving, and that meeting took place just a few days before the horrific terrorist bombing of Christians of prayer in Damascus. So I was hoping to be able to also visit with the Druze community in Syria. I had spoken to a key leader in Israel some weeks before, together with the Reverend Moore. But on that day at least, our safety could not be guaranteed on the road between Damascus and the enclave, one of the two big enclaves of the Drew. Huge questions are there. On the other hand, the leader that we met with was open. You could discuss. You can debate. You can try to get a change in approach. And I would say that of the two hours that we spent together, a full 40 minutes, one way the other also dealt with Israel. And I thought that his main message was, we're not enemies.

enemies anymore. We need to de-conflict. And then he went into some detail about the list of things they want and expect or demand in return for

further normalization. And so my personal view is the following. That the step-by-step discussions are already underway. And they're going to be plowing through a lot of issues.

That might be the best way to approach this whole thing. However, do not underestimate the X factor of Donald Trump. I think Bibi Netanyahu asked the president to be involved with the issue. I think the Syrians are shocked that he made the move that they desperately needed. So he's got huge leverage. And you get the feeling that if he took Beebe, he took those two guys into the Oval Office or Camp David for a couple of hours, who knows what will come out at the other end. But from a practical point of view, I know that a lot of us are hoping that the Abraham Accords will be expanded. I'm not sure that in each case it's going to exactly fit that structure of a warm piece

a la Bahrain, UAE, and Morocco. But certainly no one in Israel is interested in any more cold pieces. So if the president sort of elevates this and wants to put it on a fast, track, anything is possible. Having said that, as far as I know, in the months leading up to these developments, it was only one prominent Israeli who said we should talk to the guy. Happened to be a close friend, someone I respect. He's a senior scholar also at the Washington Institute and on Israel's Channel 12. When he speaks, Aiyahiri speaks, everyone in government down to the taxi drivers listen. He actually

wrote an essay in which he said well we know who this guy is but he is the president and let's talk to him because we still have needs in terms of our northern border we should at least speak

any of this type of thinker researcher, journalist essayists when he writes something everyone listens when he wrote this essay it was crickets so i actually handed with permission a copy of his essay to the

foreign minister in new york i said here read it when we spoke with the president uh in his in in the palace i mentioned him by name i said you know mr president if you want to talk directly to the people of israel most of whom obviously when they think of syria think of uh you know very, very difficult and even desperate times. There's your guy. I mean, if you want to fast track it, but I think that this is a leader or whomever would be the leader in Damascus,

you've got a lot of big players, China, Russia, Iran, Turkey, U.S., Israel, I think he's got to try to figure out a way how to move forward in terms of foreign policy and foreign aid and all the rest, while at the same time really giving special attention domestically. And I'm sure that you know that his public involvement of his wife in a number of meetings. When I saw that, I said, you know, what's going on here? and then he was also seen, you ready for this, holding her hand on the way to dinner.

So the, and I mentioned this in the meeting, I said, you know, in the world we live in today, everything local is global, and everything global is local. When you brought your wife to those meetings, the ripple effect continues throughout the region and throughout the world. So I was convinced that this is someone who's worth having a serious ongoing conversation with

of taking chances towards peace. And I think especially because the perception and the reality is that Israel is strong and that the United States and this president has Israel's back. Sierra right now is weak. The people are exhausted from decades of. the Assad's and civil war and everything else that's transpired. And every group is also fearful like what actually is going to happen to us. So that means that with the emphasis on domestic, with the need to rebuild, this is actually a good time. I put forward two suggestions

for humanitarian projects. One is I would call the DNA project. I've already spoken to my great friend. It's one of my heroes. Father Patrick Dubois represents the Vatican in Paris. And he did over the decades, he went to the Ukraine as a Catholic priest to many of the places where Jews were mass murdered and buried in mass graves. He was in Central America and disappeared. He was back in Iraq. The idea is very simple.

you know, where all the Jewish people are united in trying to get back the remains of Ellie Cohen, the famous Israeli spy, and Syria thanking him for getting his goodbye letter to his now his widow and other things return. That's for one person. There are thousands upon thousands of people in Syria who have no idea what happened to their loved ones. They're presumed dead. But the idea would be is to bring in experts on a volunteer basis, anyone who wants to give their DNA, and then have teams working with someone like Father Dubois to do the match and try to help people get closure. And I said, this is a project that every family in Syria will appreciate if you decide to launch. And if you want to do it, we're available. The other one is

more basic, Jan, you would have done it. Anyone would have done it. When you were flying in from Doha, you know, watching the map, it's all desert. You're talking about, you know, just hundreds, maybe thousands or more square kilometers of desert. I said, look, this is a no-brainer. You have the Arava Institute in Israel. You've got other water experts. You've got agricultural experts. Just call them up and bring them in. let them help you. And if you can't do that yet, we're here. We did it previously before the Abraham Accords. Give us the list of people that you, you know, who are involved in this effort in Syria, and we'll invite him. We're an NGO. Doesn't have to even be government

to government. I don't think he's ready yet for number two. I think he's got his list. The Israelis have their list. We'll have to see, again, it might be incremental, but you never know with this particular president. On the first issue I raised, I have not received any response yet because maybe I'm the first person to raise the idea. I mean, so many vantage points here, President Trump has removed sanctions from Syria, so he clearly believes that there's a possibility here. I think you're echoing that same idea from your encounter with him as well. A couple of things I'd like to kind of maybe definitions and things that people might not be aware of. First of all, like cold peace,

warm peace. What's the difference there? So the most, the largest, the most important Arab country is Egypt. It was at war with Israel in 48, in 56, in 67, in 73. Eventually, finally it led to a peace treaty, but it's been a cold peace. There is virtually no Egyptians who visited Israel over these decades. They still get their information from the swamp led by Al Jazeera and company, and that's a terrible tragedy for everyone concerned. That's a cold piece. Jordan, King Hussein, who I met numerous times, and it was a good friend of our founder, Rabbi Marvin Iyer. He also, in a way, was a unicorn. And after, you know, joining in the war, decided and vested heavily in peace. His son is not the same sort of strong leader that his father was.

And as a result today, Jordan, with the increasing Palestinian population, many of them were open Hamas, cheerleaders and supporters. For someone like me with the Kipa going across the border would be a very unpleasant experience. I no longer travel through Amman for obvious reasons. And this is a nation that's technically at peace with Israel, but it is a frigid peace with the possibility of the border, God forbid, also heating up.

having just spent basically two days, a little less in Syria, just driving from the international airport to Damascus, if the United States won't lead the way in, of course, trust and verify, but if we don't lead the way in the rehabilitation of this country, we've got China, you've got others who are lining up, you know, with a kind of price tag that doesn't fit the worldview of the, this president, and certainly would make life even tougher, you know, for Israel. So there's a term in Hebrew.

It's called Kabdehu to Hashdehu. Kabdeu means show respect and verify. So this is not a kumbaya moment. This is a moment where there's great leverage and timing-wise created by a president. who thinks out of the box in many ways is a contrarian. Warm peace, as I mentioned, to both the foreign minister and to others, there was a profound Jewish history, both in Damascus and Aleppo, with Jewish communities there, Jewish business people who, I think, helped found Damascus.

There is a great deal of nostalgia, but you're also. looking at, you know, 50 years later, there's a lot of work that has to be done to, first of all, make sure it's a peaceful country and that, I don't know if Jews will ever be coming back, but a part of the rehabilitation and going towards warm peace would be exactly that, allowing families to come to cemeteries to pray over their loved ones. People like me were going to come with my philactories and prayer shawl and say, okay, where's the nearest synagogue so I can say my prayers? Those kinds of steps, which I think would also benefit all the religious minorities that are still there, those are kinds of steps that I think are being contemplated. I grew up

with the children of Syrian Jews who fled Assad Sr. So I was, I love their subculture. They're an amazing people, the Syrian Jews. And they've already, some have visited, some have been at meetings with the foreign minister. And I hope and pray all of that will go well. But I made clear from the beginning that my connection to this issue is nothing to do with nostalgia. Is there anything to do with looking forward? You mentioned at the beginning that it's sort of out-of-body experience to be at the presidential palace in Damascus. Of course, you know, again, the unspoken thing is that there are no Jews in Syria. for, you know, very unfortunate reasons.

And I suspect that you didn't expect that you would ever be going there or in the near term, right? Yeah, I never thought I would have a set foot in Damascus. And also, just for reality check, at every major intersection and some other places, too, where young men in uniform with AK-47s, with four to six clips on their vests. so we're not yet talking about a normalized situation you'd have to wear triple bifocal rose-colored glasses

to be blind to that reality but it is at this point worth taking a shot but again very important especially for the U.S. as it takes the lead it needs to verify and if if things go wobbly, God forbid, we'll snap back. Remember, some of these sanctions go back, I think, to 2008, and you had escalating sanctions as the horrific behavior of Assad Jr. And just almost impossible to run a 21st century economy with those sanctions. So that's a huge leverage. The fact that the person who holds the key to all of it is, the president of the United States, I think, is a good thing, considering who else might have been holding the leverage.

So the Abraham Accords, I want to kind of revisit what they are even in the first place. There might be people watching that aren't aware. And I might add, you know, there's, I've seen some people saying that, you know, as an Abraham yourself, you might have played a significant role in these accords. Right. So a few things. First of all, you do have a scoop. I may be the only Jewish leader who doesn't take credit for the Abraham Accords.

You've seen it, you know, live and in color. We do have, Rabah and I have a letter, a beautiful note from then Secretary of State Pompeo, thanking us by helping with the building blocks that help build the momentum towards the Abraham Accords. That is the most accurate way to place it. And that meant, for example, when I was with together Thrabi Hire in the palace in 2017 in Manama in front of the whole brain trust and in Hamad, I had one question. And I said, you know, your majesty, what would you say if the Simon Wiesenthal Center were to invite some of your citizens to Jerusalem as our guests? and in front of everyone, without hesitation, said,

my citizens can go anywhere. And two years before the Accords, we hosted 24 faith leaders in Jerusalem for four days. And by the way, it started the day after the 45th president of the United States announced that they were moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem. No one believed that this group would show up. They did. And these are important, symbolic, incremental, and practical steps

when you can help create ambassadors for peace within those cultures and societies. You know, not just photo ops with, quote-unquote, faith leaders, priests or rabbis or all imams. Yeah, all that is good, but the most important thing, and when I'm going to try to devote in whatever number of years the good Lord gives me to function at a proper level, is to try to put in play verifiable humanitarian projects, because that will bring together people already in those societies who care about certain issues and may have an expertise. It will surely bring together some faith leaders.

It will also, besides the politicians, I believe, attract significant interest in the part of business folks whose REITs may be, in this case, in Syria, or in other countries we're going to have announcements. I just keep coming back to something that my great mentor and teacher, Ambassador Alfred Ballitzer, who was President Reagan's first ambassador to Brunei, no less. He said, remember, the diplomats signed treaties, but people make peace. there's no question also that in the coming weeks all eyes will be on Saudi Arabia to see whether there will be some incremental positive movement in the right direction

I know that President Trump loves the big deal and putting a lot of pieces of a puzzle together who knows anything is possible but but the Israelis right now the people of Israel. We've paid a very heavy price, starting with October 7, 2023, through ballistic missiles that continue as we speak, just from Yemen. And with so many deaths and so many limbs lost, Prime Minister Netanyahu, who's done, I think, some remarkable things, but is also a lightning rod within Israeli society, between different groups. But whoever is, running Israel has to account for the fact that the younger generation of Israelis step forward to defend Israel in the most incredible way. These are people from left, right, center,

you know, with nose rings, with Paias, and everything else in between. They don't want to have to go out into the field again when it comes to their neighbors in the course of their lifetime. If you're having deals, they have to be verifiable. And in the Middle East, that's pretty tough to keep things going for a very, very long time. But I get where the president is coming from. I applaud him for taking the shot. And I also applaud him for having a good secretary of state to do the trust and verify part of this, along with hopefully the foreign affairs committees of both houses. Congress has a big role to play going forward, not only with Syria, but I think any of the other announcements that will be made.

You know, you alluded to something a little bit earlier. Of course, you're the former chair of US Commission on International Religious Freedom. And I think, you know, something, I think we first kind of bonded around this idea that religious freedom, wherever it is, really is a kind of a barometer for the decency or the goodness of a society. Yes. As it happens that I really got to know Johnny Moore because he preceded me by a couple of years and was a commissioner on Youserve. I happen to be in Washington for one of those meetings. And that's what really started, you know, I guess he can call it our bromance over all these years, just in some challenging locations.

So for me, and I mentioned this also to the president, I said, we look at human rights through the lens of religious freedom and how a society, how governments, how neighbors treat other faith groups says a lot, maybe says everything

about the health of the society and its future. I'm absolutely convinced that the people the world leaders who spend the most time thinking about God are the president of China the head of North Korea and all the other tin pot

and real players because when you're an authoritarian leader and you control everything in your society you know in your gut but you don't control everything and you have to figure out how do I install myself as God when I can't fight the God I can't see. So whatever his theological base is right now or not, in terms of the president,

that's polygod is what makes up Syria. And if you're looking for some advice, and in this case I gave it without waiting to be asked, is if you want to know if you're on the proper track, is how are the minority? the religious, the religious minorities, how they feel? Do they, is there a sense of trust?

Is that something you can build on? And I think right now, Christians are still, and others, is just holding their breath, waiting to see how things, what kind of government will actually be put into place, will all the groups be represented on ministerial levels, etc., etc.

It's going to be a very, very long road, but if there are any successes along the way you have to get the president of the United States is due for making any of those positive outcomes possible but we have to stay in the game and also to show some respect to Israel which has had to pay desperately with high casualty rates in terms of the Golan Heights

I remember, look, I'm at this 48 years at the Wiesenthal Center, remember a guy named Mustafa Tlaas. He was the longtime defense minister during the wars with Israel. He was also going for his Ph.D. at the Sorbonne. His main book is called The Mata of Zion, in which he endorsed the 1841 blood libel in Damascus, in which Jew was murdered and the cover of that book in color which was a wild bestseller

across the Middle East before, this is before the internet showed a guy with earlocks, payus, hook nose with a knife slitting the throat of a child with the blood dripping into a pan so anti-Semitism

is not only the fault of the Assad's there is plenty It was plenty historically, even before there was a state of Israel. You had one of the worst Nazi walker mills who was able to live out his life in Damascus because he helped train the Mahbaraat, how to torture people. And the Israelis, unfortunately, were only able to get one letter bomb to him, so he lost a few fingers.

But he died peacefully in Syria. So, and this is very important, I think, for the president and the United States and others to understand. If you're going to get true peace with Syria, they also have to deal eventually with their past. Without that, it's only going to be limited. On the other hand, with the UAE and Bahrain, they were never at war with Israel. You know, tiny Jewish communities were there for hundreds of years. So what happens now in Syria is going to have great geopolitical impact, but I think also you're looking at the Lebanese government,

watching very carefully what's going on. You know, the possibility that you'll have deconfliction, which means not by shooting at each other anymore, from Israel's northern area, and focusing on how to help the people improve their lives and their economic possibilities, that would be a historic achievement for all concern. Whether this is the team that's going to deliver it or not, I can only default back to what our sages, Jewish sages, have said

that from the time of the destruction of the Solomon's Temple, there are no more the power of prophecy has left only fools prophesized so I prefer not to be a fool I'm not a diplomat of the United States I'm a taxpayer in Israel because I have

eight grandchildren and a great grandson now so I'm an indirect taxpayer but I'm not a citizen of that country I'm a proud Zionist and when the Syrians Syrian foreign minister invited us. They knew exactly who Johnny Moore is, the president of Christian leaders in America,

and a great human rights activist, and they certainly know who I am. So if we had that invitation, it was something that we had to take. I never hesitated. And I'm also, you know, grateful that we got there, did our thing, and we're able to come home to the greatest country in the world. Well, Rabbi Cooper, this has been an amazing conversation. Maybe just as we finish, a quick word on the Abraham Accords and their potential expansion.

There's been hints that, you know, kind of big things are in the works. I know you don't want to prophesize, but perhaps you know about some things that may be a bit in the works. So the amazing thing about the Abraham Accords, which you have to give President number 45, and his team, Pompeo and others, unbelievable credit for breaking the mold. And you heard throughout those years leading up to, from the pundits, oh, no, you can't do anything towards peace, broader peace in the Middle East until you solve the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Well, we kept hearing from Arab leaders saying,

we've been supporting these guys for 70 years, and if we can do things with Israel are going to help us we'll continue to support the Palestinians but they no longer have veto power that was achievement number one just a discussion

to broaden it and again the real normalization the opportunity to visit the countries openly as Jews and for statements during different

times and actions from Arab leaders who just spoke a different language. They didn't see, don't see Israel as an enemy. That itself for Israel and Jewish people was an unbelievable shock. And the third country, which is Morocco. Well, Morocco and Israel, I would say they were pregnant for 40 years. They should have been at peace a long time ago. But it took the president of the United States to bring Morocco into it. And the reason it's so important is the king of Morocco is a direct descendant of Muhammad. So when he blesses this effort, it's a huge step forward. It's a matter of not just exchanging ambassadors. It's a matter of joint projects. It's a matter of humanitarian efforts. And

Going forward, what's the wish list? So, believe it or not, Indonesia is part of my wish list. I've been there. It's the largest Muslim country in the world. I have hosted religious Muslims from Indonesia in Israel, in the Jewish state. I believe that the kind of leadership that the late President Wahid exhibited was the fact. phylo-semi. And even some of the leaders today, Vawaiti visited Israel, that is on near the top of my wish list. I don't know that it will happen, but even talking about it indicates that there is a lot more activity going on. And then certainly Saudi Arabia is key. Something's going to have to come, whether it's, you know, peace treaties, whether they're going to have a signing on the White House lawn. I don't know. Obviously, we're still talking when you have 50 Israeli hostages alive and dead under the ground in Gaza, even at this stage, with the war not yet finished there. That for sure is a complication. So I would say Saudi Arabia, Indonesia,

There may be some other countries. Obviously, Algeria is not one of them, unfortunately. They're off in a completely different orbit. And the problem is with Libya and Lebanon is there failed states. So it's tough. There are many people I've already, I've met from Libya, you know, who want to make peace with Israel, but who may not control more than just the peace of that territory.

And it will be, I think, a great indication of just how the times of change is the result of Israel's counterattacks and successes and the United States bombing of the, if Lebanon comes in, if Syria comes in, you have the beginning of the reshaping of. of the map of the Middle East, and I believe it will, if anything, create more pressure internally in Iran, which is for another meeting and another conversation with people who know a lot more. But with this president and some of the steps that he's made, with the courage and tenacity of the nation of Israel, you know, not to cower in the face of the military threats, nor in the face of the lies that continue to be embedded into the international community by the United Nations, by so many NGOs, it's going to take quite something to unravel that mess.

And I want to commend my good friend, Reverend Johnny Moore, currently is also the chair of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, which if you don't know anything about it, you would think that they're the worst group of war criminals. What is their sin? They have now supplied people in Gaza with 55 million meals in a couple of weeks. And the original sin is they rely on security that's provided by the IDF. And that is the original sin today in the international community. They keep pushing Israel out, to make it a pariah la South Africa, and to see the courage and foresight of this group to move in, initially using some, I think, a good American know-how and showing flexibility

and ensuring that at least 55 million meals didn't go directly to Hamas, to enable them to continue to hold the people of Gaza hostage. So I'm for one, I'm all for, I guess, I'm an example of citizens being involved in humanitarian level on global issues. But again, it's very, very important for us to understand what our role is and what it isn't. Well, Rabbi Abraham Cooper,

it's such a pleasure to have had you on. Thank you to see you. And I hope when I'm in Washington next, we can find a good kosher beer to drink together. I look forward to that, Rabbi. Thank you all for joining Rabbi Abraham Cooper and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Yanya Kellick.