American Thought Leaders - Matched and ‘Killed to Order’: Inside the CCP’s Dark Organ Industry | With Guest Host Rob Schneider

Episode Date: February 28, 2026

For twenty years, I’ve investigated a crime almost too horrific to name—now documented in my new book: “Killed to Order: China’s Organ Harvesting Industry and the True Nature of America’s Biggest Adversary.”In America and other free countries, patients wait months or even years for an organ. But in China, transplant wait lists are measured in weeks—or even days.In this episode, the tables are turned, and I’m in the guest seat this time.I invited my good friend, actor and comedian Rob Schneider, who has become deeply personally invested in this issue, to be the guest host for this special episode.This is the dark reality: When someone decides to go to China and pay a hefty sum for a scheduled transplant, then on the other side, an incarcerated prisoner of conscience, who has already been blood-typed and tissue-typed, is likely being killed to order.China’s transplant industry began its exponential expansion at the exact same time as the state launched its aggressive, nationwide campaign to eradicate the spiritual practice of Falun Gong. There is growing evidence of Uyghurs being targeted as well. There is even an underground global market for what are called “Halal organs,” which means organs from Muslim donors.And it’s not just wealthy foreigners who travel to China for organ transplants.China’s super elite have access to a secretive longevity program dubbed “Project 981” with eerie ties to this macabre organ industry. This project entered the spotlight last year after the revealing hot mic exchange between Chinese leader Xi Jinping and Russian President Vladimir Putin, where they talked about extending lifespans in part through repeated organ transplants.American institutions have, wittingly or unwittingly, helped facilitate the rise of China’s transplant system through partnerships with Chinese transplant centers, the training of hundreds of Chinese surgeons, and the supply of China’s organ preservation solutions, surgical instruments, immunosuppressive drugs, and transplant diagnostics.The stories I share in this episode are disturbing, but we cannot afford to look away.Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

And you write in your book, But such trust requires an enormous amount of moral imagination, an ability to grasp evil on a scale that defies reason. But even that is not enough. One needs the courage to believe of what the mind rejects. It's just even that sentence I've never heard before. Today, the tables have turned. It's actually me that's in the guest chair this time.

Jan Yuckelik, welcome to American Thought Leaders. My wonderful friend, actor and comedian Rob Schneider will be our guest host. For 20 years, I've investigated a crime almost too horrific to name, now documented in my new book, Killed to Order. The whole Chinese transplant industry grows geometrically from 2000 to 2005.

They built this on the backs of the Falun Gong, starting in 2000. 60 to 90,000 transplants, Involuntary organ transplants a year in China. Correct. But there actually is a global market for what they call halal organs, which means Muslim organs. Wow. Our conversation moves from the unimaginable scope of this crime,

to the individuals who dared to expose it, to the survivors who lived to tell the truth, and the millions who continue to stand for faith and tradition amid repression. The Chinese people is an amazing nation, beautiful people, with a rich, incredible culture. incredible culture that has given so much to the world. It is my prayer that the Chinese can get back to that gift to continue giving to the world. This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Yan Yek Kellock. Yanyi Kelluk, welcome to American Thought Leaders. Rob, it's great to be here.

How's it feel been on the other side? A little bit daunting, perhaps. Yes, it is. Because I don't know what you're going to pull. Not so comfortable, is it, Jan. Well, Jan, no, I've watched you for years in your professionalism, and it's nice to see you without your tie, for one thing. And it's nice to see you in the interviewee seat.

You have a very vast knowledge about a lot of subjects. And the thing I really always loved about what you do is you're interested. You want to learn stuff. You want to learn how people think. and why they think that and how this works or how that could happen, how that could come about. So it is a pleasure to have you here to talk about your book, Kill to Order. I'm very grateful for your frankly deep and amazing interest in this brutal topic. There is this kind of understood covenant between the medical practitioner and the patient,

which seems to be the same for thousands of years, or as long as there's whether shaman or modern medical professionals, doctors, physicians. This is so outrageous and jumps so far beyond to where it asks you to accept the unimaginable. Is that a fair description? When I first heard about it, I didn't want to believe it.

I just felt revulsion and my mind was wandering, to be quite honest, right? And it took me seeing a lot of hard evidence. And I was open, to be fair, I was open to it. I already knew what the Chinese Communist Party was capable of broadly. But I still didn't want to accept that this could be happening because it's so extreme. Because it's so extreme. And the barbarism and the, the, the absolute lack of any sort of medical morality or ethics required.

And then also the scale of it, because it's not just one person doing something evil in a basement. The idea of government systemic mass murder has always been hard to believe, whether it's been in the Holocaust and Auschwitz. You're right in the book, but such trust to believe requires an enormous, amount of moral imagination, an ability to grasp evil on a scale that defies reason. But even that is not enough. One needs the courage of what the mind rejects. It's just even that sentence I've

never heard before. Because what we're really talking about is, as you say, kill to order. And you have to just explain that to people in the real simple terms. So somebody like I can understand it. This is different than what you've heard about in terms of organ trafficking. You know, there's these urban legends that you hear about. Someone wakes up on ice. They've got a slice, you know, slit in their body and there's a kidney has been extracted or something like this. Yeah, which is horrific. It's horrific. But at least that guy is alive to tell the story and has a scar. This is another level. This is a whole different thing. You really, it requires, you know, you were referring to, you know, the reality of Nazi Germany and what they did to the Jewish

people. It requires a state actor, someone who can push massive, coercive power through a population, both in terms of propaganda. You have to be able to dehumanize a very large group of people in the eyes of their fellows. And the reason that part's important is most people aren't psychopathic. We have this weird quirk of, in our psychology, I think, that when we start believing that someone is lesser than us or somehow very different from us or somehow just evil that allows us to do some things to those people that that person is a threat to society and to all of us then atrocities become possible right exactly you said it exactly on the nose okay they become possible without that dehumanization right very hard to get that because people would be like

no i'm not going to do that to that person right yes the second part is you need to be able to incarcerate a huge group of people. That's another reason why you need a kind of state actor. Because if you need a heart transplant, whether you're South Korea and Taiwanese, a super elite in China or here in the U.S., right, in two weeks scheduled, you could get yourself a heart transplant. Which is impossible knowing anything about organ transplantation. is sometimes the weight is at minimum two years, five years. Right. And most people, I would think, would die before even having that possibility.

Because in an ethical system, right, someone has to have some kind of a catastrophic accident, likely a car accident, okay? That they're really not coming back, okay? You know, I know you like the Princess Bride as I do, right? And so there's this kind of line in there, which I think is apropos. I don't know if it's how appropriate it is. but the person has to be mostly dead. Yeah.

Mostly dead. Okay. But you get a whole team of ethicists that gets together and decides, yes, this person isn't coming back. Therefore, it's okay to transplant those organs, and those organs have to match tissue. Right. Okay. Match blood type. Match the size.

Right. And to get all of that, to have the accident and all those things match is rare, extremely rare. So you have to wait. But here, I can get it in two weeks. And how can I get that? Well, what happened in 1999, okay, the Chinese Communist Party. In communist societies, there's always an internal enemy that the state...

Yes, to exist, communism must have an enemy. Absolutely. The external enemy, by the way, is always America. Always has been, okay? Because... Even when we were helping China. Freedom, 100%. Absolutely.

Right? That's what, yeah, there's huge irony there. Right? They were always... There was years of propagandizing against America while America was giving everything. But the internal enemy would change, right? It was landowners at one point.

Then in 1989, it was the student movement, right? The student pro-democracy movement, students. And then in 1999, it became the Falun Gong practitioners. So that was a spiritual movement. People were practicing truthfulness, compassion tolerance. It was very grassroots, very bottom-up in a way that I think the communists couldn't even understand. And, you know, basically the dictator at the time, Zhang Zemin decided we're going to eradicate it to use his terminology.

Didn't necessarily mean kill everybody, by the way. It just meant get rid of it, right? We don't want this to be any issue for us. It wasn't a real threat to the communist, the Chinese system at all. These are people that, you know, actually, if you go before, you look before communism in China, this is a there's a tradition of spirituality, which is remarkable that that would become considered somehow. The foundational spirituality of China would somehow become the enemy of the state.

Yeah, precisely, this was actually an ancient practice, basically, around from time immoral, just became very, very popular in the 90s. Also had health benefits, which I experienced some benefits from myself at one point in my life. But the bottom line was, when they decided to get rid of this, it turned out that the people that did this did not what we call brainwash or re-educate. That's what the communist term for it, or a transform, I hate that term, easily.

They really held to their core beliefs, and they wouldn't. And so they started torturing them to try to break them. Mass torture. Mass, well, no, exactly, because they, remember, now they've incarcerated a whole lot of these people How many people were talking? You're talking Fell and Gong.

That's right. So there were 70 to 100 million people by government estimate that were doing this, okay? And how many went into the prison and labor camp system? We don't know. Maybe a million, maybe two. It's unclear exactly, but it was a mass thing, right? That still exists today. Still exists today to the tune of, I mean, I think the last Freedom House estimate was

something like 40 million. But the truth is that we don't really know. human beings incarcerated? Well, no, no, no, no. Okay, sir. Okay, no. How many people exist in China doing this practice today? All right.

We don't know how many are. How many are hidden? We don't. We don't. It's actually kind of a state secret, how many? Right. But back, actually, I remember in 2005, the UN Human Rights Commission, there was the special rapporteur on torture.

His name was Manfred Novak. He estimated that half of all the people in the entire system were Falun Gong practitioners. So, I mean, mass. massive numbers of incarcerated people we're talking about, okay? So when you're talking, so in order to get this, as you say, this organ that is needed from particular, whether it's somebody flying over from the United States or Israel,

as you talk about in the book, to be able to get something in two weeks when the normal weight, if you're lucky, is two years to five years to get a match, you would have to have what at your disposal? So because you have so many people in the system, now you can pre-blood type, tissue type, and organ scan them. So you have in a database all the vitals of some huge number of people. And that's how when someone, say, in the U.S., wants to come and pays that money, 150, 200 grand, that person on the other side is already pre-matched to them, incarcerated, a prisoner of conscience, ready to be killed to order.

and that's why the name of my book, the title, is killed to order. Wow. It does really boggle the mind, because in order to have that system ready for these involuntary organ transplants, there has to be, first of all, there has to be a mass incarceration. You have to biometrically check all the people that are incarcerated. And then you also have to have people incarcerating them. You have to have also physicians, expert physicians and nurses that are at Beck and call for this procedure to take place.

And so the actual, that's why it does become unimaginable to me. So how does that process work? So somebody will just, is there an advertising mechanism? How do they know or people just know? Because most people in the world do not know how these organs are harvested. But the Chinese allows people to come from other countries, as well as the elites, to come and purchase an organ, whether it's $30,000 or $100,000, I guess the estimate used you say in your book. Recently, something happened that exposed this involuntary organ transplant system, and it was a hot mic incident. Can you tell us about that?

I honestly couldn't believe it when I heard about it. phone was basically like ringing off the hook. I mean, not a, you know, not off the hook because we don't have hooks these days, right? But yeah, I mean, let me recount. So I'll give you the sort of the thumbnail of what happened. But basically, Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un are walking in Tianmin Square. Quite a threesome. Observing quite the three-sum. Observing a military parade. and she says to Putin roughly, you know, when we're 70, we're just a baby, right? We're just babies.

And then Putin responds unbelievably, at least, or believably depending how you would look at it, through continual organ transplantation, perhaps we can achieve immortality, right? Wow. And then she responds, and this was the part that, where the light bulb goes off in my head, our target is 150 years.

So, 150 years, you can think of a code, you can think of it like a code word. So there's the super elites in China have something called Project 981. And Project 981 is the super elite longevity project. And that, indeed, 150 years is the target of that project. So, you know, having looked at this issue for over 20 years now, it had never, I had compartmentalized these things. I knew there was a super elite longevity project. And they do indeed live many more years than the average person, okay, already. And I knew there was forced organ harvesting, but I never connected the two so obviously, right?

Yeah. Which is that through this continual organ transplant, through the availability of near instantaneous availability of organ, for the super elites, they're actually living longer. And there's this crazy example that was sent to me a few years back. It was a eulogy of sorts, okay, to a guy that basically, you know, this sounds super crazy. You talk about it in your book. Exactly, super, like people would think this is nuts. But someone actually wrote a eulogy that said, isn't it amazing how this guy had multiple

organs transplanted and therefore lived longer? Yeah, but the other side to that is at what cost? Exactly. So how did he procure these organs? Well, so you actually asked me a moment ago, right, how do people know about this? Yeah. Right, how do you find out? Well, so prior to 2006, and it still blows my mind, right? When we actually started reporting on this a lot, right, it was online. Like we have archived ads that were online that said, in a couple of weeks, you can get a new heart for this amount of cash.

And then as soon as this became sort of reported on a little bit, a little bit, a lot, those ads disappeared. And I'm guessing that the information stayed within these networks of hospitals and so on. I'll give you an example, right? Another thing I talk about in there is this former explant surgeon from Germany, right? Explain to me this scenario where there's a woman who has this heavy drinking problem. and clearly a very loose set of morals. And she has now gone to China to get a liver transplant three times.

I think in under about a 10 year period because she keeps needing to get, she keeps drinking heavily, the livers keep getting compromised, and she just gets another one. I wouldn't have believed this is possible, except that this transplant, ex-explant surgeon verified this scenario. And this is fairly recent. And he believes that the way that she got connected with China is through the local transplantation authority in the province where they work. So she's clearly a sociopathic person.

Well, it would seem, no, I mean, at least selfish. These things are so cosmic. But I was more ready to believe this because I remember back in 2007, another example, David Kilgore, who was one of the hero researchers, may rest in peace. not with us anymore, unfortunately. But he interviewed a guy who was Taiwanese, who had gone to China, had a very rare antibody condition in his body. And he received, went to China, and first kidney got was rejected. So immediately they gave him a second, and then they gave him a third, and then they gave him a fourth. And none of those worked. So he goes back to Taiwan, okay,

goes back on dialysis, comes back four months later, and they try a fifth, six, seventh and eighth kidney, and the eighth one is the one that holds. And David Kilgort interviewed the guy who actually had this done. Right. So, you know, again, unimaginable things can happen when you have, you know, on-demand organs available from people. So eight different Chinese Falun Gong members were murdered for this guy's attempted new kidneys. Most likely, yes. I mean, and this is so one of the huge tragedies of this, right? They built this on the backs of the Falun Gong starting in 2000.

The whole Chinese transplant industry grows geometrically from 2000 to 2005, kind of like, you know, not, I don't even say exponentially, geometrically, okay? And in 2005, it sort of starts to plateau, but grows a little more. And by the end of the 2000s, we've got 60 to 90,000 transplants a year being done. Okay, that's the best estimate. That's the range. It's very hard to estimate. This is a state secret. They don't have statistics. They pretend it's not happening. It's a state secret, but clearly the very top of the Chinese elite know about it because they discussed it. To go back to your point, right? I think for these Chinese super elites, the people, you know, the, you know, I forget the exact number, but something like 10 million people that have these so-called red cards, we have access to every level.

of the system, including the super elite medical system, basically. It seems that they have unlimited on-demand organs available to them, basically, in perpetuity. And this is what I keep thinking about this, because, you know, it's about a $9 billion a year industry. If you look at those numbers, 60 to 90,000 transplants a year, you know, average it out. 60 to 90,000 transplants, involuntary organ transplants a year in China. Correct. That's right. It's mind-blowing.

40,000 was the record in the U.S. last year. So it's a huge number, and it's hard to fathom. Again. So 40,000 voluntary for people who were lucky enough to get this life-saving procedure. Correct. The organ transplant from someone who accidentally died, most likely a car, motorcycle accident.

That would also include the kidney transplants, where sometimes someone was giving up a kidney. I would say that would be the majority of the organ transplant. would be the kidney transplant. Yeah. I would have to find out. I'm not sure, actually, on that point. Honestly, Jan, this subject,

I don't even feel comfortable joking about. It is so, it boggles the mind because it seems like one of the no-go areas. I remember like any joke about the Holocaust. You couldn't, you couldn't. How? Because this is the only thing that harkens back to me is that it takes so many people

to be complicit in this. And this is after the dehumanization process. This is after the vilifying of a group. This is after identifying the group. After alienating that group. And then after taking that group out of society and concentrating them in a particular area, concentration camp. And then that requires so much. I mean, for Nazi Germany, it required people to be willing to identify. identify the Jewish people or, you know, whether it was homosexuals or gypsies, and then those people to take them, imprison them, put them on trains, and then the people on the trains, and then the people transporting them. That whole process took... 100%. Hundreds of thousands of people to be able to do for the 6 million Jews that were

murdered in the concentration camps. So this particular thing also takes thousands. So, I mean, Has there been people that have been able to expose this that were involved in that system? I just, I want to make one comment before I answer your question, right? The tragedy of really nothing being done about this for the better part of 14 or 15 years. Now we're talking 2000 to 2014, 2015, is that the Chinese Communist Party found another group to do the same thing to, the Uyghurs, dehumanize them, incarcerations, a million plus of them and then start doing the same forced organ harvesting procedures.

The Uyghurs were taking place I mean the Falun Gong were the first people and then you do run out of enemies and truthfully like what communist the communists always have to have is they need an external enemy but they also need an internal enemy

and then to re-energize that they need a new enemy because this idea of utopia that is promised that never comes needs to be blamed on something besides the state. And so what was about the Uyghurs that was particularly vulnerable or how did they vilify them? Well, so in a way, there's already been a kind of project to culturally assimilate, or I mean, the U.S. believes the official U.S. government position on what's being done to the U.Gers

is genocide. And that's not a casual assertion. It's not the way that people use genocide these days to mean like some sort of, you know, mass death is usually when people say genocide, that that's what they mean. This is a different thing. This is an actual attempt to eradicate in whole or in part a group of people. So that's done in different ways. It's not always just through mass killing, right? It's also done through preventing people from following their cultural norms. It's through sterilization. Anyway, I could go on. But multiple things altogether would yield this very unusual designation. So the Uyghurs for some time have been considered to kind of because they're an ethnic minority and there is this, if we could discuss the whole different

topic of the Chinese Communist Party has been fueling a kind of Han supremacy ideology alongside it's to help bolster its own rule. So there's already a kind of a dehumanization aspect. They're in the northwest of China. It's a relatively small group, maybe 12 million people I'd have to check the actual numbers, but something like that. And it was just very convenient because it's a military-controlled area, right? People are only people allowed in there are people who are going to say beautiful things and watch, you know, sort of these Potomkin villages-type shows and cultural displays and things like that.

So the short answer is it's a different culture. It's an area that's important strategically to the Chinese Communist Party. they're looking to assimilate it with their own people, with basically people who put communism first. And it just makes this group particularly vulnerable and very easy to use. And the worst part, and I hate even saying this, but there actually is a global market for what they call halal organs, which means Muslim organs. And the Uyghurs are indeed a Muslim sect. Wow. Yeah.

So that would go to the Middle East, obviously, in Saudi Arabia. Yeah. And so going back to the idea that to expose this, have there been survivors? Can you tell us about the survivors of this? And also maybe some of the physicians, because I think to do something this abjectly cruel and inhumane and taking this life-saving procedure and this advance in medicine, which is literally extending people's lives, but in some cases by decades. And the perversion of it is what like Frank Turek, the Christian scholar describes as what evil is, is degrading. Taking something beautiful and degrading it. The idea of organ transplants is a life-saving, incredible gift and perverting it to murdering people for profit is outrageous.

And so have there been people who've been able to, who I would think you would go mad being a physician, taking organs, killing somebody, knowingly killing somebody to save somebody else's life? I would think that would drive somebody if they had a conscience at all. It would drive them mad. It's a perversion of an entire profession, right? And as you point out, it's not just the transplant surgeons. It's everybody else in the system. There's a lot of people that need to participate in order to achieve an organ transplantation. But actually one of the whistleblowers, one of the original whistleblowers was a woman named A pseudonym Annie. Yeah. And her husband was one of these surgeons and he basically confessed to her after he was having nightmares.

She was going to divorce him and he confessed that he had removed corneas from 2,000 living people. Right? And I mean, an extreme situation. But in terms of these surgeons, there's only been a few that have actually come forth. And most of them, aside from, and this wasn't even him, this was his wife, right? Yeah. They've been people who were doing it a little bit earlier than this whole mass growth of the industry

happened in the early 2000s. So there was a surgeon that, you know, basically, I think they were experimenting at that time. They had, you know, basically prisoners of some sort. And, and, you know, a surgeon was basically forced under military guard to do the procedure, even they knew that this person was still alive. right there's enver toti is an example of that he is actually a weager a surgeon that did this again before this mass the kind of geometric growth of the entire industry there's a few examples but not many remember like these people are really putting their lives on the line to to admit to

something like this right now there's ever been an actual um i think you talk about it in your book the survivor the survivor the survivor i've never thought we'd ever see one like in a million The idea that somebody who is either a Uyghur or Falun Gong member who's been subjected to this involuntary organ transplant and somehow not get murdered or survived, first of all, that had to been early in this process of this, I guess, making a factory type of system that the Chinese would use. It must have been early because they didn't murder this guy. Somehow he survived and escaped to talk about this. So how did he survive? First of all, and he survived. And what is his story? So, you know, we talked about the Holocaust a little bit earlier. And so I happened to have interviewed quite a number of Holocaust survivors over the years. My father-in-law was one. And they all have these unusual stories, obviously, right?

But the story unusual in that they almost died, but then something happened that made it so they didn't die at that moment. And then that happened again. and then that happened again and again. And eventually the war was over and somehow they're alive. Yeah. Right? This is kind of a similar story with Cheng Pe Ming, who is the survivor. I mean, in the early 2000s, he was in prison.

He was being tortured. And one day he was in a hospital scenario, basically, and he woke up with his big gash in his side and a lot of pain inside his body. And he actually didn't know what had happened entirely. So he, you know, and just by a lot of, I would say, minor miracles, he lived to tell the tale. Eventually, it was able to escape.

And years later, it took him years to sort of, you know, decide that he wanted to kind of go public with this. So he must have went to a doctor at some point and then some sort of x-ray. Well, he was hiding in Thailand for a number of years, right? This happened in early 2000s. Then he was hiding. I actually worked on an underground railroad helping bring basically prisoners of conscience out from China through Golden Triangle into Thailand. We were helping get them U.N. refugee status back in the day.

So there was this path, and I may perhaps he used that. I've actually never asked him specifically whether he used that exact route. But he was there for a number of years. And then Bob Destro, who in the first Trump administration, was the Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy Rights and Labor, he ended up rescuing him to the United States. So once he was in the United States, he felt, you know, and he's still kind of in hiding mostly these days,

but he felt like he could come out and talk about this. And, of course, they did detailed scans, and they found that part of his liver had been removed. This is what they harvested, right? They harvested a good chunk of his liver. that had regenerated. And they harvested part of his lungs. Strangely, we don't have a good explanation as to why, but that's what happened.

He's one of the lucky ones. Well, he's the only lucky one, you know, in a way. Because, I mean, his testimony was powerful. If I can look back at the last 20 years and I see there were these surges at times of reporting on this issue. The biggest surge I ever saw was when he went public. And I saw, especially in the UK press of all places, there was quite a few very very very very well done. I mean, there were people writing articles there when I was,

you know, there hasn't been a lot of good reporting on this issue. Okay, let me just say, right? But there were a few pieces in the, I think it was in the telegraph. I can't remember, I think telegraph actually.

I was just like, man, this is like the best article I've read. I wish I had written this article. There were a few really powerful pieces that were done that really explained the reality of the situation. So, I mean, I feel he's played a very important role against all odds in getting, you know,

I don't know, the awareness. but it's still very low because of this hard to believe. You know, there's actually one of the great documentaries about this issue that was on PBS some years ago was actually called Hard to Believe. Yeah. Because it is. It is. That all this is real. That, yeah.

How is a program like that in 2026 allowed to continue in the modern world? I mean, how can they keep it hidden? and I think like at any point, this being exposed is the only chance we have to stop this and save these Uyghurs and Falun Gong members from this continual involuntary organ transplantation and the murder of a massive amount of human beings. Any publicity about this shaming, this dastardly and inhumane procedure

of mass murder for profit has to shame the Chinese into, that's the only way I could think of, is just shaming them into stopping this by exposing it. And your book has a chance to help that process. And the more that we can get more articles, the more that we can get governments to talk about it, is the chance to stop this. incredible crime against humanity. Can I ask you, like, what, you know, when I, when we first met and, you know, became friends, and I, did you know about this already? Like, I, I, because you took such a, I don't know, deep and personal interest in it that I'm just not used to. We actually, and just for the record for the people watching, like, we haven't had this conversation before.

This is fresh. I don't actually know why this resonated with you so much. that you wanted to help with it. I knew about it, but I didn't think deeply on it. I didn't think about what was required to accomplish something on this scale of just something so immoral, unethical, a perversion of something beautiful and life-saving, an organ transplant, that the opposite would be mass murder. When you think about the machinations of what is required to have a system like that.

Right. You have to really think about that. It does require some, it does require a rejection of your own moral clarity. Because it just isn't even in the cards of thinking it. And I even wrote a joke about it at the time. And the joke was simply the healthiest thing for you to do in China. in China is smoke tremendously and drink and drink to the point of of liver collapse. That's actually healthier for you in China because this way you're less likely to have

your organs harvested. And then I would act out like, no, you don't, let me tell you, you don't want my liver, I can't, I can barely get up and I, you know, because of my mother's Filipino, I think, I can get away with doing an Asian accent. We'll see. But, and I would say, that was a joke that doesn't really land. And it's simply because it's still too unbelievable. You have to, the audience has to understand the concept before you can show the absurdity of it. And if they can't get behind the concept, then the absurdity just doesn't ring. It doesn't ring true. And this is a subject.

So when we started talking and I realized this absurdity is something beyond comprehension, then I said, well, I got to know more about this. And so, you know, thank you for educating me about this and so many others. Because I believe that it is... It's really one of the great evils of today. I think it's one of the great evils ever. I mean, even if you take a look at the Nazi doctors paled. in comparison. I mean, they, you know, they did experiments which were ghastly. And they would try to see how far somebody could go without oxygen or a, and see whether it was

altitude sickness. Old water, hypothermia, that's how we know. You know, that's, when I first learned about that, it just, I still actually have trouble dealing with that. Like, we have knowledge that we use from those experiments absolutely so but and then they you know this absurd Joseph Mangala how he was called a doctor and had no conscience at all would do these bizarre you know experiments with twins and some of them did survive but the the system that is required to for this mass organ transplant involuntary organ transplant. It does boggle the mind and it does become unbelievable. However, I think if enough people know about it and if enough countries make it illegal to go buy an organ transplant, you know,

and if then it should at least be known throughout the West that this cannot be recommended. You know, this is something that is not an option for a patient who needs a liver. You know, so the requiring of somebody's death for your survival to me is the most perverse thing I've ever heard in medicine. And there's been a lot of perversions in medicine. There's been, you know, lobotomizing somebody, which happened to, you know, John Kennedy's sister Rosemary. Now, that was a procedure that I think they were using for depression. and literally scrambling somebody's brain. That was, you know, now we look back at that,

we look at electric shock therapy as an abuse of the medical profession. But this abuse with killing on demand, killed to order, is something that is unique in the history of humanity. You know, something just strikes me sometime around 2008, I remember I was telling someone I knew pretty well about this whole thing.

And the guy said to me, well, you know, if I was desperate, I might do it. Right? And I was sort of like, I didn't really know how to deal with that, right? Yeah. I was sort of. It's a flippant thing to say. Yeah. But you can understand it from a point of view because he's saying, well, yeah, somebody died for this or whatever.

But then you realize that there is a prisoner that has been in prison that has been biometrically. checked, that has had their organs measured, that has had their blood type, has their tissue, has their, maybe even their genetic markers. And all that is in a file. And they are essentially in prison in a file waiting to be used and killed to order for this particular person's organ. And I think if we could express that to that person, I would hope if he's not a sociopath that he would see the abject evil. And this is exactly what I was just thinking, right? This is what I was thinking. I think I wasn't, I don't think I was able to communicate to them what this was. In fact, it's only recently, as I've, you know, started doing lots of TV shows and podcasts and things about this

book that I felt like I've been able to kind of succinctly explain. I don't think I even did it on this, in this program yet, but what it is, right, to just give people that that full understanding, right? that we're talking about this mass scale system where you have a dehumanized group of people that are ready to be killed to order pre-typed for anybody. It's beyond human imagination. It literally is, if you made a horror movie about it, people go, I don't know, I don't believe that.

That's too crazy. Coma. You remember, Coma? Yes, I do remember, 1976. It gave me nightmares. Jean-Vier-Biole was the star of that. Amazing. Amazing.

Amazing. amazing. Yeah, she's fantastic. But the, I mean, it really is the Charlton Heston. This kill to order the Chinese harvesting of organs is really the Charlton Heston moment in Soylent Green. They're eating people. It is that moment. And I think that I would be interested to see and talk to people who've had that. And how do you live with yourself? And I guess for people who feel that their lives are more valuable than others,

and maybe they don't have a problem with their conscience, can live with that. I just, I hope I'm not one of them. So as we were preparing for this, I was alerted to the fact by our new producer that there's a film that came out in 2019 with like an all-star cast, right? I'm talking about Antonio Banderas.

I'm talking about Gary Oldman, Merrill Streep's in it, that actually features this issue. It dedicates a significant, you know, a few minutes to this issue. It's kind of shocking. I thought maybe we could actually watch it. What's the movie called?

It's called The Laundromat. I think it refers to money laundering, actually. But I'd never, I don't know how I missed it. Yes. Let me tell you a story so you can fully understand my concerns. Make sure our guest has a drink for this story. You are perhaps familiar with the so-called spiritual practice of Falun Gong. It was labeled as an enemy of the state for advocating superstition and jeopardizing social stability.

Police chief Wong decided to help wreak the country of such threats. He became feared throughout the land for their techniques he employed. He would say that the organs were harvested only after the prisoners were dead. But the Falun Gong were expendable and a heart can bring $180,000 on the open market, depending on the blood type. A cornea from a young person is perhaps $3,000. A kidney can bring as much as $60,000 if it is not too old. So, you know, I guess not a lot of people I know watch this film or something. Yeah. Because...

It's so grotesque, but you see the horror. You know, it's somewhat accurate. It's the highest production value depiction of this whole thing I've ever seen. That's for sure. Well, I think we should maybe do a movie about that survivor who survived and got out. That's a very of possibility. Because I do think that, I do think for sure that culture is, you know, they say politics is downstream from culture, but culture is downstream from entertainment. You know, something just occurred to me. I saw that, you know, the U.S. government is, well, of course, we know for a while now that that freedom of speech is a strong priority of the U.S. government.

But I was seeing this government. Absolutely. And I saw something else recent, just, you know, as we're filming this morning, I haven't even had a chance to read the article yet, but about freedom.org and which, you know, this free speech initiative that Sarah Rogers, the undersecretary of state is leading. But to facilitate freedom of information in China, I saw that there's some kind of component there, which of, I'm like, massively supportive of. I think I actually think that the absolute most useful, powerful thing that the U.S. government could do would be to facilitate various ways in which the Chinese people could just get access to general free information. Well, hopefully Elon Musk can help with that with his satellite system. Right. Well, interesting though, because I think that's the way out of this

system. Well, I mean, the way to end this. But they would like, the Chinese people, now they maybe have heard rumors. I think most Chinese people do not understand there's a kill-to-order industry in their own country because it's you know, maybe there's rumors. They know that the system can do terrible things to people. They know that viscerally because everybody in their families has some story, at least in the past of this sort of thing, extreme violations happening to them and their families. But I don't know if they really know, but think if they understood the level of depravity that the communist

Communist Party. That their own leaders. Has stooped to. Maybe that would actually make a profound difference. I think it would. I would hope so. I think somebody like Elon Musk having a satellite system that could get through so people could actually find news outside of what they're just being forced fed by the same Chinese Communist Party line. I think that could be impactful.

We're in an unusual time around this issue where I feel like we are. all have been, a lot of our society has been through a lot, especially the COVID years. Yes. Right? I feel like people, there's these, you know, Epstein file revelations and just all the types of terrible things that we now know, aside from individual guilt, but I think they exposed just a lot of really nastiness that has sort of existed in the underbelly of society. I mean, I think it can help.

Silver lining might be that people be like, wait a sec, okay, maybe this, for, organ harvesting thing isn't science fiction actually. I think that for me, subconsciously, what got me very interested in this subject was after experiencing COVID and the lies that the medical agency, the medical establishment, that are governments, that are media, that was required to keep this lie going. and the facilitation of the vaccine that they promised work, you can't get it, you can't give it, and the idea that you shouldn't do your own research,

you shouldn't think for yourselves. So seeing that organized misinformation and that manipulation that required a government, that required the media, and that required the medical establishment to manipulate, and censor. That was, that made this easier to digest in the sense of if they're capable of doing that, then yes, go down the road even more to an unimaginable, unethical, immoral perversion of organ transplantation and life-seaving procedure to the opposite. Killed order, murdering

people for somebody else, for somebody else's kidney, somebody else's heart. So I do think that that, and I do think society in general now would be able to, for those who choose to see, because there's still people trapped in their bubble, there's still people believe everything the government said about COVID. They're mostly of one particular political party. But however, I think most people have woken up to it. So therefore, I think it's more now so than 10 years ago, six years ago, 15 years ago, I think there would be more of a willingness to see the unseeable. And I hope that they do. As well as I hope our government, the Trump administration, somebody high up in the Trump

administration, maybe the president himself when he meets with the Chinese leader, would say, this must stop, this inhumanity, this crime against humanity, this murder, kill to order must stop it is a degradation of of the great heritage of the chinese people and i would hope that that uh i would hope that happens no it's a very interesting because i think you know i don't know how much she jing ping cares about this or not but you know he didn't start this i'm pretty sure of that based on what i know from the past but he could be the one to end it And that's, you know, you might have a lot of, he has a lot of terrible legacies associated with him, but he could have one good one, possibly. Possibly.

Yeah. Well, I think if you could, I don't know how that could be framed to somehow remove himself from the guilt of what's been happening and just stop it and blame the previous regime, whatever it takes. The challenge is, right, and this is, it's an industrial scale operation. and essentially the medical profession has been co-opted in some significant portion to this. And so, you know, one of the things that I kind of advocate, have been advocating for, I wrote an op-ed in The Baltimore Sun about it some months ago is just what we can do at the very least is remove or end American complicity, American cooperation with the system. Because we do, you know, wittingly or unwittingly, you know, we train.

some of the transplant surgeons. We have funding partnerships. We have research partnerships. So the surgeons that the surgeons not all of them. Yeah. But some we absolutely trained because essentially every transplant surgeon in China likely is involved in this, right? So. And that technology was developed first where? Like the technology to organ transplantation. How long has organ transplantation been around? That's a great question. How long has transplantation been around? I mean, it's really only since the 50s. It's really only since the 50s that we've been able to do transplants. Yes, but the successful transplants where they've figured out the anti-rejection drugs,

you know, taking it, even if it's a close match for, whether it's a liver, a kidney, or a heart transplant, still it's got to be pretty close. And the rejection drugs is what keep the body from rejecting itself. So I would hope when the president of the United States meets the leader of China, I would hope somebody in the chain of communication does bring this issue up. Do you think that's likely to happen? You know, I was just talking with John Solomon about this on his show last night. As we're filming, this was last night. and he asked me this exact question.

And I don't know. John said something interesting because my suggestion was, you know, tell she, do you really want to have this on your record? Right. Right. And so, you know, something that the president could say, Appeared to his, you know, appeal to his, you know, desire to be a great leader for the, his legacy.

His legacy to his posterity, essentially. And I think there might be something to that, right? There might be an avenue there. Because it's not, you know, there are a lot of things I would like to see different about communist China and how it treats its minorities. But imagine if the president of the United States, Donald Trump said, this is bad, this is terrible, you should not be killing people and taking their organs. It's terrible. Something like that, I mean, could have worldwide repercussions from that. I mean, I think.

I think it could only have a positive effect, actually. Yeah. Anytime you expose them. I mean, we really have to expose this. You know, when you think about, when I think about the Holocaust and think about how it was unbelievable to people and thinking about, in my mind, it's crossed my mind a thousand times. Why didn't they just bomb those empty trains? Why didn't they bomb the tracks?

Why didn't they? It's like, it was amazing. Like when Anne Frank left Holland, when she left Amsterdam, she left after the American forces and the allied forces that already landed in Normandy. She didn't leave till August. They landed June 6th. They just, they didn't go north, you know. They didn't go to Holland. And so there was still people, still trained, still working. And the Allies at any time could have blown up those tracks. Could have ended that. And they didn't. So how much longer can this go on before somebody blows up these tracks. Somebody has to do it. I think the United States is, if there

was a constant drumbeat about this, I think the Chinese are vulnerable to information, obviously, and they are susceptible to public perception. And I think that's a given. So I think the more that there could be light brought into this particular issue, the more chances are that the Chinese will stop this horrible crime against the Uyghurs and the Falun Gong. And I hope it's soon. And I would hope that the good people in China, and while I realize that the Chinese government is the enemy of the American people and our way of life, the communist system itself,

but specifically the Chinese government, the people in China are not. And these are by far good people. And again, against all of us, by the way that's what I that's been that's my experience right that's my absolute experience there's tens of millions of people in China that are you know actually actively changing it for the better as we speak yeah like they're educating the public about the Chinese Communist Party and this organ harvesting and so forth right I'm talking about the Falun Gong

practitioners that is that's what they do they go out into society and talk about what Felangong is, try to debunk this horrible dehumanizing propaganda that's been pushed out, continues to be pushed out against them. At the same time, educating actually the problem is the Chinese Communist Party, not them or not other minorities, or not any of these groups which are labeled as the black groups that the society is supposed to struggle against. I mean, it's actually probably, it's one of the, if not the largest, one of the absolute largest civil disobedience movement peaceful ones in the world right now so anyways there's there's an amazing in china proper this is the

amazing kind of part of the story which i don't get to tell often enough i talk about a little bit as you as you know towards the end of the book but but uh in way there's there's in every situation they're all always right always and there's always these good people and it seems like in in any totalitarian system there there are good people that are being held prisoner literally to a system um that just want to wants complete utter control and that wants to take away the spirit of the people. That's what's so surprising because if you look at the felon gong and what their whole belief system is, is beautiful. They believe in, walk me through it. It's being truthfulness, compassion, compassion, and. Forbearance. Actually, that third term is it's a little bit

more complicated. It has to do with tolerance to pain. But also the idea that, that pain is a positive thing, right? So it's, so it's in. Well, suffering for the right reason, not unnecessary suffering. Well, but just actually suffering of any sort, this is the thing, right? When we experience pain, we live in a society right now, right? What's to avoid?

At almost at any cost, right? And of course, you create a lot of suffering trying to avoid suffering. But the idea, I mean, at least in my understanding in Falun Gong, is that actually all suffering needed or unneeded is actually something that's positive to your own development. That's how I understand it. Yes.

Well, you have to suffer. You suffer for your children. You get up, you don't sleep when you have a baby. You get up and you just like literally five years and you're not going to sleep. And then you've got to get up and you've got to go to work and prepare. And you've got to pick the kids up and you have to make enough money. And you have to make sure that the school and that they get there and that they have food and they have lunch. All these particular things is suffering.

But it's a beautiful thing because from suffering, you get the most real reward. And if you think about the Chinese culture, whether it's Confucius, whether it's the Tao, I mean, the greatest thinkers in humanity have come out of that amazing area of the world. And so the Chinese have a lot to offer us. And I think what's being offered right now

is a grotesque aberration of what that amazing culture has brought to the world. And I would hope that we can return to that incredible, spiritual, beautiful country with beautiful people, the Chinese people, is an amazing nation, with beautiful people, with a rich, incredible culture that has given so much to the world, not just the east, but to the west. All the forms of medicine, whether it was manipulated later or not, into a negative way, if you go from acupuncture, if you go from, whether it was leeches and bleeding, and they had it. And it was manipulated and done wrong, by the time I got to George Washington.

But these ideas that came out of from China and the healing and the great healers that have come out of it have changed the world for the better. And I hope, and it is my prayer, that the Chinese can get back to that gift to continue giving to the world. Thank you for being such a good friend and basically supporting me in this whole endeavor.

You have done the work, and the least I could do support you. And I will say that we're going to have a good time and at the Kennedy Center, March 16th, we're going to get together. We're going to have another discussion about this and a deeper discussion to dive into this and to see perhaps by then we'll have some more information

from the Trump administration, some more information, and see about how to get the story out there and how to shine a light on this so that we can make to make this grotesque aberration of a beautiful, the gift of life, are the organ transplantation and this perversion of it, involuntary organ transplanting,

and make that a thing of the past. So people can look back at this as they look back at the Holocaust and just said, how did humanity ever allow that? That's my wish. Amen. See you March 16th. That's right. You can do it.

We'll see you there. So let me tell it to you straight up. This book, 20 years in the making, I feel like this moment is where all the roads have been leading to. I really want your help to make this book a bestseller, to blow it out of the water, basically get it on all the list, the New York Times list, the Amazon list. I mean, if we can do that,

millions more people will understand that this crime, this crime against humanity is real, and we can end it. We can actually at least end America's complicity in it and the West's complicity in it. but we can actually save some lives this way. So please join me, killtoorder.com, get the book, spread the word, and together I really think we can make a difference. Killedtoorder.com, get your copy today, and thank you.