American Thought Leaders - The Truth About White Farmers Being Killed in South Africa: Rob Hersov

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

President Donald Trump has recently criticized the ANC-led government of South Africa for what he says are state-sanctioned, racist policies that have been endangering white farmers.In this episode, I sit down with South African businessman and entrepreneur Robert Hersov to get a read on what’s happening in the country. What is the real story surrounding white farmers in South Africa today? What role have Iran and Russia played in the region? And what can we expect from U.S.-South Africa relations moving forward, after the confrontational meeting between Trump and President Cyril Ramaphosa last month?“In South Africa, we have two farm attacks a day, two murders of farmers a week. And of those farm murders, 20 percent of them involve rape and torture,” says Hersov.“Cyril Ramaphosa went back to South Africa and proclaimed his meeting as a huge victory,” says Hersov. “I think America is about to unleash serious punishments—not on South Africa, but on the leaders.”Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

In South Africa, we have two farm attacks a day, two murders of farmers a week, and of those farm murders, 20% of them involve rape and torture. In this episode, I speak with South African businessman Rob Hursop to get a read on what's really happening in the country. What is the real story of what's happening to white farmers in South Africa today? What role has Iran and Russia played in the region? We're one year into our coalition government, and they're finding their feet. But the ANC is still trying to push forward their racist and socialist ideology. And the coalition is only just now working out how to say no.

And what can we expect from U.S.-South Africa relations moving forward after the confrontational meeting between the two presidents last month. Cyril Ramaphosa went back to South Africa and proclaimed his meeting as a huge victory. I think America is about to unleash serious punishments, not on South Africa, but on the leaders. This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Jan Jekielek. Rob Hershoff, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders. Thank you, Jan. Great to be here, all the way from Cape Town. That's right. Something very significant happened today. Israel has launched a series of

preemptive attacks against Iranian nuclear facilities, but also against Iranian leadership, nuclear and otherwise. And by all accounts, has had a pretty profound impact. A lot of the Iranian leadership has been actually removed. Now, it strikes me that there's probably an impact here for South Africa. So what do you see happening here? So there is an impact, and it's a very interesting one. The African National Congress has been receiving money from Iran to fill up its poorest financials. They were bankrupt and all of a sudden they had more than enough money to pay their bills, pay their salaries, but also launched the ICJ case against Israel.

And the ANC has been relying on Russia and China, but very much Iran to keep it afloat financially and have this sort of support required on the international stage. South Africa is one of the top 10 countries to vote against America in the United Nations on almost every occasion. Having Iran out of action, certainly for the time being, if not permanently,

will be a big blow for the ANC because their main patron that's been paying them is now has not definitely got other things to worry about. Let's go back to this recent meeting with President Cyril Ramaphosa and President Trump. Cyril Ramaphosa wanted to reset the relationship with America. And of course, we know all about the president playing some of the significant actions taken against South African whites and so forth and confronted him in the very public way. How is this reset going? And also, does this change—this sounds like a profound change from what you're saying in terms of what the ANC is going to do—does that affect this reset idea? When Donald Trump announced tariffs across the board on countries and then said,

you can see I'm serious. I put tariffs on everyone, reciprocal tariffs, but you've got 90 days to come and see me and negotiate trade deals. And 70, I think 70 countries turned up very quickly to negotiate trade deals with America. South Africa was very slow to move and South Africa's interest in meeting Donald Trump didn't seem to be to talk about trade and tariffs. It seemed more to be as you put it, to reset the relationship. And Sarah Ramaphosa, in my view, went to see Donald Trump to try and to

explain South Africa is a sovereign nation. We can do what we like. We have a constitution. We have a democracy. And if we're going to implement laws like expropriation without compensation, black economic empowerment and other laws, we have every right to do so. And you, America, need to understand what we're doing and respect it. That was Sir Rommopose's intention. Donald Trump, on the other hand, is not at all impressed with South Africa. And I understand that entirely. South Africa has voted

against America and the United Nations on a highly consistent basis. South Africa has been in bed with Russia, China, and very much Iran, enemies of America. South Africa has been very anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, launched the ICJ case against Israel, funded by Iran, has done everything possible to poke America in the eye and upset America. And I think on a bipartisan basis, Democrats and Republicans, America's had enough. And Donald Trump decided when Sir Rambaposa came to the White House, America's had enough and Donald Trump decided when Sir Orombo-Pozo came to the White House to not what I call do a Zelensky on him directly, but was actually very intelligent in how he approached his meeting with Sir Orombo-Pozo. He didn't directly attack the ANC or Orombo-Pozo, but he showed on the television with the famous

dim the light. He showed on the television screen a minority party with almost 10% of the voting population, so 60 million people, 6 million South Africans, to extrapolate the number, who support the EFF. Donald Trump showed a video of 100,000 people, red berets, jumping up and down in a football stadium, singing, kill the boer, kill the farmer. And what Donald Trump was cleverly trying to do was to say, listen, Mr. Sorema-Poza, I'll show you the respect of you being here to try and talk to me about resetting the relationship, but how the hell can this happen in your country? And just to finish this thought, in South Africa, we have two farm attacks a day, two murders of farmers a week, and of those farm murders, 20% of them involve rape and torture.

So that was Donald Trump's message to him. So you want to reset the relationship? Well, how can you allow this to happen in your country? That's a fascinating explanation of what happened, but what has been the impact? Has there actually been a positive impact? Has there been a reduction in farm attacks? No, there hasn't been any decrease in farm attacks. Cyril Ramaphosa went back to South Africa and proclaimed his meeting as a huge victory. In my view, it was a farce, and South Africa did not come out of it looking at all good. Donald Trump did. And there's been no concrete action yet from America on South Africa. But the ANC has been trumpeting it as a great success.

We told Donald Trump, you're a sovereign nation. We know what we're doing. He should leave us alone. But there's been no discussion on trade and tariffs, certainly not outside the boardroom. We may not know what's going on behind the scenes. And if anything, I think America is about to unleash serious punishments, not on South Africa, but on the leaders, the ANC leaders, MK, EFF, anti-American and racist and socialist

policies. I think that's coming. Congressman Ronnie Jackson of Texas is putting together a bill which will go to Congress and then to the Senate, which will be to sanction individuals in South Africa who've been guilty of those crimes. That's underway. Let's unpack this whole issue of both farm attacks and then farmer murders. Can you unpack this whole picture for me? What has been happening and where do things stand now? In the year 1994, when we went from white minority rule peacefully to the Democratic rule, and Nelson Mandela came in as our first president. We had 80,000 commercial farmers. We have 30,000 commercial farmers today.

So there's been a huge amount of persecution, pressure put on South African farmers. And it's not just white farmers, predominantly white. White people make up 7% of South Africa's population. 7%. It used to be 20% in 1994. We're now 7% of South Africa's population. But white farmers own 22% of the arable land. And so there's a lot of posturing by the leftists, by the ANC about the whites control all the farmland, the whites control all the land. It's not true. They're highly productive the farmers, not just white farmers, but they have been victimized, targeted. And the EFF's hate speech, kill the boar, kill the farmer, one settler, one bullet, let slip the throat of whiteness, has a direct

impact on farm attacks. So farm attacks spike after these rallies, they spike after this hate speech. And just to add to your view as one more thing, our highest court deemed that those utterances, kill the farmer, kill the farmer, one settler, one bullet, was not hate speech. Well, if that's not hate speech, I don't know what is. But I can tell you right now that our judiciary is compromised. And I'm not surprised that an ANC-compromised judiciary came out with that ludicrous conclusion. But before we go there, tell me a little bit about Julius Malema and the EFF. If 10% of the voting population are behind this party, this is obviously a serious party in the country. On the

face of it, the speech sounds about as extreme as it can get. Julius Malema was head of the ANC Youth League. He's a highly intelligent populist and opportunist. I've actually met him at a lunch meeting and he made enormous sense. He's highly intelligent and he's very dangerous but he's an opportunist. And when he left the ANC he founded the Economic Freedom Fighters. His party has nothing to do with the economy and nothing to do with freedom. But his popularity as EFF is amongst the voters has been declining and declining. And he recently in the last four months lost most of his top

lieutenants who left the EFF and joined Jacob Zuma's MK party. MK stands for Mkuntu Weseezwe, the spear of the nation. And they were the armed element of the ANC prior to 1994, prior to the democratic elections. Jacob Zuma was the president of South Africa from 2008 to 2017, preceding Stirling Romposa. And Jacob Zuma has reappeared just before the 2024 elections with the ANC lost their majority for the first time in 30 years, Jacob Zuma reappeared to compete in the elections with this new party called MK. So I'll just give

you the layout so the viewers can follow this. The ANC has had a majority in South Africa since 1994. In 2024, they lost the majority. They dropped from 56% to 41%. The next biggest party at 21% is the party that I would support, which is the Democratic Alliance. Democratic Alliance are probably Judeo-Christian, free market, probably pro the West, pro America, free enterprise party. They're kind of centrist. They'd be more Democrat than Republican, but it's called them centrist in South African terms. And the Democratic Alliance has grown from almost obscurity only controlling Cape Town in 1994 to controlling the whole of the Western Cape and numerous

other large metros and pieces of other provinces. And it's not just a white party anymore. It's obviously at 21, 22 percent. It's got a lot of black, Indian and colored voters. And for your views, colors are a mix of white and other races, black and other. So. ANC at 41 percent. Democratic Alliance at 21-22%, Jacob Zuma and the MK Party at 15%, and Julius Malema of his economic freedom fighters at around 8%, just under 10%, and then a lot of smaller parties at the 1, 2, 3%.

And it's the first time our country has had a coalition government. The ANC is the anchor tenet, and the Democratic Alliance is the main opposition joining the government of national unity, GNU. That's where we are today. In the meeting with Donald Trump, Sara Ramaphosa dismissed the EFF as a minority irrelevant party. But with just under 10%, that's not much of a minority. That's a lot of people singing, kill the boy, kill the father. And it's a very worrying

situation. So while we don't have genocide, we don't have extermination right now, the word that's been bandied around, we have a lot of elements that could lead to something like that in place already. Well, as someone who's studied this issue quite a bit over the last 25 years, I can say that this sort of extreme incitement to violence, in this case, killing transparently, is an element of that journey to the mass killing. It doesn't always happen, but it's a very absolutist statement. I suspect that this is what you're alluding to here. Well, it's already begun on the farmers. Three times more likely to be killed as a South African farmer than as a policeman, and a policeman twice as likely to be killed as a South African farmer than as a policeman and a policeman twice as likely

to be killed as an average citizen. Cyril Ramaphosa said to Donald Trump, South Africa is a violent country, lots of murders, lots of rapes, lots of terrible things happen. The farm attacks are nothing special. That's not true. If you're three times more likely to be murdered as a farmer than a policeman, there's something wrong. And these attacks on farms spike after the hate speech. times more likely to be murdered as a farmer than a policeman, there's something wrong.

And these attacks on farms spike after the hate speech. So Cyril Ramaphosa is not only out of touch, but he lies. And if you look at the definition of genocide, there are 10 elements in the definition. Number nine out of 10 is extermination. There isn't extermination, I accept that. But there's denial, there's racial classification, symbolization, dehumanization, persecution, organization. A lot of these elements are in place. They haven't lit the ovens yet. You're telling me that the coalition government actually has the party that you support, which you believe is the centrist party of reason. So isn't this changing anything? It is. But if you look at the allocation of ministerial positions in the government, we have 32 cabinet ministers, which is ludicrous. Norway has 18 and Argentina has 9. We have

32 cabinet ministers and we have two deputy ministers. We have 75 ministers altogether, all with security and blue lights and flying business class everywhere. Huge waste, huge expense. But that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that the Democratic Alliance, when they were negotiating with the ANC for their ministerial positions, were not given trade and industry, foreign affairs, treasury, finance, any of the key positions that affect economic growth, ideology. And you know, we're one year into our coalition government, first time in 30 years, and they're finding their feet. But the ANC is still trying to push forward their racist and socialist ideology.

And the coalition is only just now working out how to say no, how to coach the ANC ministers on talking to coalition partners and agreeing things before they announce them. It's finding its feet. And anyone who's looking from a distance will say democracy is working in South Africa. And it is. We have free speech. The fact that I can speak as openly as I do would not be the case in Iran, China, Russia, and many other countries. I'd have disappeared by now, all been taken out. But I can speak freely in southern. We have free speech. Democracy is working, but it's working very, very slowly. And our next national election is 2029. And I'm not sure our economy is going to make it to win, for a start. Now you said something quite strong.

You said that there are racist policies in place. And so explain to me why you believe that. So there are 140 race-based policies in South African law, and the vast majority, 114 of them, 114, were introduced since 1994. And many of them are definitively anti-white. They may be written as supporting or benefiting previously disadvantaged people, but when you read between the lines, they are fundamentally anti-white, they're racist. We also have laws, black economic empowerment, all started off as a good thing,

where everyone accepted previously disadvantaged, which by the way meant all different black tribes, colored people and Indian people, need to be empowered in the economy. And everyone bought into that. Corporates, white people, and said, this is a good thing. We need to help the previously disadvantaged.

What that has turned into is trillions of rand have been looted from the government and forced through black economic empowerment to benefit 100 elite families. So if you are a coloured South African, an Indian South African, not a loyalist to the ANC or from a different black tribe, you just aren't black enough for black economic empowerment. It's been mafia style looting, breaking and looting at the most sophisticated level. Essentially, what you're saying is that there is obviously this modicum of freedom that you're describing. But at the same time, the policies, even with this coalition government, which is presumably already somewhat more moderate,

basically the economy is still being driven into the ground and you're expecting chaos to reign if that actually happens. You're 100% right, John. You've nailed it. People say to me, hang on, Rob, you've got a coalition government with a centrist group like the Democratic Alliance. How come expropriation without compensation, the most damagingly named bill you could ever imagine has been signed into law under its watch? Well, the reality was the whole thing had been pre-prepared by the ANC beforehand. It all started around the possibility to sign it. The opposition parties weren't part of the coalition at that point, and it was forced through, as were so many other laws quickly in time. Now that the coalition is

in place and they've gained the courage to say no to the ANC, the racist and socialist ideology that's being forced upon South Africa is being slowed. But there are elements that people need to be aware of. I'll give you a very interesting example. When the ministries were being debated and handed out, Helen Ziller, who's the chairman of the Democratic Alliance Federal Committee and a real lioness of South Africa, an extraordinary woman, said to me an interesting thing. She said, for some reason, the ANC won't let us come anywhere near the Department of Foreign Affairs, which is known as the Department of International Relations, DIRCO, where they won't even give us a deputy director, a deputy minister. And we found out why. Because the Islamists in the ANC,

funded by Iran, wanted to control foreign affairs so they could put forward the case of the ICJ case against Israel, send a really nasty Islamist as our ambassador to Washington, who then publicly called Donald Trump a white supremacist and a racist. And America said, well, you can go back to South Africa then. And the Islamists of the ANC have controlled the Department of Foreign Affairs. In addition, during the ANC's reign, all of the state-owned enterprises, the Electricity Supply Commission, Transnet, which is the rail network, the ports, South African airways, were all captured by the state. Any position of power in any state-owned enterprise, including down to municipal and

town level, where a budget was involved, were given to loyalists, or what they called CADREs, C-A-D-R-E. In South Africa, they call them CADERS, but I know it's CADRE. So they put loyalists who were mostly incompetent into positions of power, positions of influence, and they captured the heights of the economy and the heights of democracy. Our country, I'll give you two statistics that will horrify you, is growing at less than 1% GDP and has been for the last five years. It's barely growing and our population growth is 2%. We're getting poorer every year. Our fixed investment is 15% of GNP, whereas an emerging market should be 25%. We are being

deindustrialized and every single one of our state enterprises is bankrupt. And here's the worst one of all. Our official unemployment rate is 33%. But we have a youth unemployment of 60%, the worst in the world by far. And this is 100% as a result of the ANC and its racist and socialist policies. It has failed South Africa, failed all of the people of South Africa. And it's very, very worrying. Very prominently, a number of white South Africans came to the US as refugees. And can you just kind

of explain to me what happened there? And does that make sense to you? explain to me what happened there? And does that make sense to you? Those are economic refugees. There is economic genocide taking place, thanks to the ANC. And these are people that have absolutely no hope of making a life in South Africa, and have taken up the offer from America to come to America as refugees. They just don't look like the refugees that most people have in their minds, you know. Worn down, dirty, desperate.

But they are. They have no chance in South Africa. And you know, we have racial policies that restrict people's ability to get jobs, to get into sporting teams. We have sporting quotas all the way down from our national team down to school teams. And it's insidious. It's malevolent and insidious. And I don't blame these people for taking up the offer. I think some of them are economic opportunists, want to get to America for a better life. But isn't that what a refugee is? Someone that's restricted from achieving their potential, but can find it somewhere else. It strikes me from everything you're telling me that a great many blacks are also being restricted in effect. The farm murders are not just white farmers. The DEI, anti-meritocracy, is not just

putting a glass ceiling above white people, it's coloured people, Indian people and a lot of black people are being restricted in their opportunities because the ANC is just rewarding their loyalists. If you're loyal to the ANC, if you're part of their mafia organisation, if you're getting money and giving money, you benefit, but no one else does. And the positive of this, Jan, which I think you're going money and giving money, you benefit, but no one else does. And the positive of this, Jan, which I think you're going to get to this, you're getting there, so I'll just jump in front, is the voting population are working it out. In 1994, the ANC swept to power with a vast majority of the country. Today, a lot of the ANC voters who believed in the ANC

voted for the ANC and expected great things from the ANC, which they got by the way, from 94 to 2008, Nelson Mandela and Talbom Beke in the ANC delivered results. The country grew, there was employment opportunities, meritocracy, The ANC did a very good job and I respect people who voted for the ANC from 1994 to 2008. But in 2008 Jacob Zuma came in and the rot set in rapidly and Cyril Ramaphosa he's been almost as bad if not worse. So I say to the voters who voted for the ANC in the beginning I respect your decision. You were right.

But those voters are seeing what's happening and realizing the ANC has become evil and only look after a very small group of people. And they are moving away from the ANC to a point where I think in 2029, the ANC will drop below 20%. to a point where I think in 2029, the ANC will drop below 20%. They will cease to be relevant, which means the voters aren't stupid, but they move very slowly. Could you explain to me, there's been a lot of debate about this, the reality of that image of the cars lined up and the crosses that Trump referred to as the burial sites of white farmers. Can you explain to me what that is? That's not the burial site. The crosses along the road are a representation, a manifestation of the murders. Each cross represents a farmer murdered of all colors, but it's not where they were buried. Most of them are buried in the town and on the farms where they were murdered. There's also a hill, a Plas Mord Kopi, which is a farm

murder hill, where there are crosses all over the hill, go for kilometers. And that again is a representation of the murders and not where the people are buried. So even though he said these are the burial grounds, it's not true. But the image was so powerful. And it does say, it does explain exactly what has happened. So he got that detail wrong, but the story was right. Farm attacks are horrific. They are happening. And they're way out of proportion from the normal population. He was right on that front.

So how many farmers have been killed ultimately? Let me put this in perspective. America has 3 million commercial farmers. South Africa has gone from 80,000 to 30,000 commercial farmers. If you take the number of murders between 2000 to 2024 as a percentage of the 30,000 and extrapolate that to a percentage of the American commercial farmers, you would have had over 250,000 American farmers murdered between 2000 and 2024. There are two farm murders a week, and that's been the trend for the last 20 years. You also said that somehow with this inciting language, which is a bit more recent, that's accelerated? That song, they call it a liberation song, but it's insightful language. It's been around for a long time, since before 1994. But it's now being used in stadiums as a war cry for the economic freedom fighters.

Now you mentioned EWC, expropriation without compensation. Everybody thinks when they hear it that it's entirely to do with land, but that's a red herring. Most disadvantaged South Africans aren't looking for farmland. What they really want is a decent home close to a city or within a city where they have the opportunity of getting a job. It's urban housing they want, not land. But land sounds like such an emotive issue that the EFF, ANC and MK are using that, getting the statistics

wrong about who owns what. And that's creating all the emotional excitement. But expropriation without compensation, apart from scaring away every foreign direct investor that would ever look at South Africa, expropriation without compensation is about land, mines, banks, companies, houses and a watch off your arm if it's in the public interest. And Cyril Ramaphosa says, we're unlikely to ever need this law, then why have it? It's like a loaded gun on the dressing room table with children running around. It will be used at some point.

Rob, you have your critics as well. And one of the things that they do say is that basically you're kind of adding fuel to the fire, so to speak, right? Exasperating these divisions which exist. And how do you respond to that? I didn't begin the divisions. I try never to speak about black, white, green, yellow. I talk about a person's character. I talk about culture. There's a difference in culture. There are differences in religion.

There are differences in people's approach. But, you know, racism is a pigment of the imagination. I always wanted to say that on air. It's a ludicrous thing, but the government, the ANC government are the ones that are doing the racial classification. They're the ones forcing the racial divisions amongst people. So I don't think I'm to blame for it.

What I'm doing is trying to tell the unvarnished truth. And if you look at the people in South Africa who are standing up and speaking truth to power like I am, it's a handful of business people, a handful. Most of the brave people speaking up are media people like yourself, people in the judiciary, or just the average Joe. Very few prominent wealthy people have had the courage to stand up and do what I do. So I'm happy to have the critics, but I didn't start the racial division. I didn't start the division. I'm just trying to tell the truth.

Well, let's go back into the past then, because obviously, prior to the whole transformation in 1994 was getting rid of apartheid and these kind of laws. So obviously, there was a very significant division. There were sanctions against South Africa for this reason. There was this transformation that you described that happened that you were supportive of with Nelson Mandela and the ANC at the beginning. But did things become less divisive and then they started branching out again. Explain to me how you view that history. Yes, you nailed it. From 1994 to 2008, South Africa grew. Three to four to five percent economic growth, 500,000 jobs

a year were being added. We were the darling on the world sphere. The world said, we've solved South Africa. Look at this rainbow nation. and things worked. The ANC had inherited the best infrastructure in Africa, there was more rail network in South Africa than the whole of Africa combined, and everything was on track. But in 2008, Jacob Zuma got elected. And it wasn't him all of a sudden deciding, I'm going to loot and steal this country to death, which he did decide. In the ANC original mandate, in its original documents, the National Democratic Revolution

were helped by the Soviets with all the pieces, the puzzle that have got us to where we are today. And Jacob Zuma just leapt in, looted the country, and let the National Democratic Revolution begin in earnest. Which Cyril Ramaphosa is now accelerating with his expropriation about compensation, broad-based black economic empowerment, and other DEI racist and socialist ideology. People say, how did you get back?

How did you become bankrupt? Well, slowly, slowly, slowly, and then immediately. That's what's happening in South Africa. You know, we've reached the edge of the abyss. Our economy is deindustrialized. We're going backwards. And my concern is. How do we turn this around?

Because it's not happening fast enough at the voter level. Can you explain to me what—I understand this is actually a document that's sort of part of the governance structure. Can you explain to me what this democratic national revolution is? It's a game plan to own the economy and the culture of South Africa and turn it into a socialist, elitist, mafia organization, much like Putin's done with Russia. Wait, but you're saying this is somehow already embedded as of 1994? No, 1969. It was written in 1969 and has been implemented in a slow game over time, to the point where the noose is very, very tight. And if you look at all the laws that have been implemented, they're exactly mapped out in the original document, but they've been

implemented slowly and carefully. It's like the frog being boiled in a pot. At a certain point, the frog hops out or pops, and that's where we are today. How do you explain 1994 to 2008 then? Nelson Mandela. Nelson Mandela, after 27 years in jail, came out and the ANC won the election with a landslide. And the ANC game plan was being implemented. But Soraya Posa stood over it like a saint, like a giant, moderating things, holding back the evil influences, inspiring everyone to work together. He was able to do that because he was such an extraordinary man and he was able to keep the ship on course,

despite what was happening underneath. Our constitution was an extraordinary document that was created by all races prior to 1994 and then implemented. But what it failed to predict was having someone malevolent as president. I want to get a picture of who you are, where you come from. You've become a very prominent businessman, obviously, in South Africa. Give me a picture. I want to understand how your viewpoints have formed and why you've decided to ultimately be one of these few people that do speak on these issues. Look, I was born in 1960 in Johannesburg to one of the wealthiest families in South Africa. My

grandfather founded one of the big mining industrial companies. I was born lucky and into privilege, and I've been given every opportunity in life. There's limited upside to what I'm doing and unlimited downside. Most of all, I could be bumped off, but I've already been de-platformed, lost millions of dollars, had friends walk away from me, be disinvited from events, be asked to stand down from businesses I founded. How did it begin? By accident. I made a speech four years ago at a business conference and that went viral. I basically said that South Africa is uninvestable under the ANC, and then I went really

deep. It went viral. Once I'd survived the racist card, this card and that card, I just kept going. And what businesses do you have at present? So I've got a lot of investments in businesses overseas. I'm mainly in the aviation finance technology for real estate sectors. And when I came back to South Africa after 31 years overseas, I was only going to be here for two years. I said I'm not going to do anything political, not put my head above the parapet and not invest in any long-term projects in South Africa. Well, I broke all of those pledges. I'm building Cape Town Second Airport, which is a massive $800 million project, but I can't even be on the board

of my own company. My partners are representing me because we have to deal with the government. I have a number of tech companies, but whether they're based in South Africa or not, the main markets are international. You just told me that you believe South Africa is uninvestable. I know. But if you're living here, you've got to do something with your money. And as a businessman, my portfolio is mostly offshore, not in South Africa, or in hard currency revenues. The investments I've made in South

Africa, I can afford to lose. And that's really it. I'm 64, 65 this year. If South Africa manages to make it to 2029 and gets a government that says, this isn't working, let's try another direction, this country will take off like a rocket. But it's, you know, at the moment, I'm a three out of 10. And I haven't ever been higher than a four out of 10 in terms of optimism for the country. The investments I make are not going to break the bank, my bank anyway. What's motivating you to do this? Lay it out for me. My father said to me when I was at my worst, at my lowest peak, he's 99 this year. He said, Rob, I've never been more proud of you for doing and saying what

other people can't afford to do and say. So my father and my wife, the two people that have backed me all the way, that's what keeps me going. It's as simple as that. You mentioned something at the very beginning, which of course made me incredibly interested. You were talking about how Communist China and Russia are somehow also involved in South Africa today. If you could lay that out for me. As the viewers of this show know, I'm always particularly interested in Communist China. Let's talk about Russia first, and Africa generally. Russia doesn't need forestry, Cobalt, Nickel. Russia's got all of that itself. So its interest in Africa is purely political and strategic. And through Wagner, their military offshoot, they are prominent in West Africa. China does

need minerals, metals, forestry and infrastructure, ports and railways. So they've been very active in Africa and remain active. But when it comes to South Africa, China has been less prominent. They've still got big commercial ventures in here, but they've been less prominent. And Russia has been funding Jacob Zuma. They're doing it entirely for political angle, for influence. And one wonders, you know, when you look at Djibouti, which has a big Chinese military base and a big American military base, the next most important, other than the Red Sea, part of Africa is Cape Town, Simon's Town Naval Base, which at the moment is still independent and part of South Africa, but there are always big Chinese or Russian ships popping in for visits. China in particular would like to have way more influence on South Africa. Russia is entirely backing Jacob Zuma in one

political party. What interests then do you think China has? China is watching carefully and hoping that their Belt and Road strategy can be implemented in a more meaningful way in South Africa. Looks like they're losing control over the Panama Canal, thanks to Donald Trump's new edict. China, other than Djibouti, doesn't have much influence in the Red Sea, the Suez Canal. Cape Town remains a very juicy prospect. If the Suez Canal was ever closed, every ship would have to come past the Cape. And that is strategic. And I think America is waking

up to South Africa's strategic importance. South Africa is the springboard into Africa. It's an English-speaking, Judeo-Christian, western-ish country, and 600 American companies are based here. So it's a natural strategic and commercial ally for America. But for the last 20 years, America's never really had a foreign policy on Africa. It's worked through proxies, it's kind of ignored Africa and hasn't paid attention. But with China and Russia having serious influence in Africa, I think America is now waking up to the fact that it needs allies. And it's securing them right

now in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Angola, and hopefully, South Africa. So given everything you've just told me, what do you think the impact will be of this reduced interest of Iran in South Africa? I think with Iran out of the way, the ANC is going to be even more in trouble financially, unable to fight the municipal elections that are coming up at the end of 2026 and will probably almost disappear in 2029. It'll be a very good thing to have Iran with its paws or talons out of South Africa. I think it'd be a very good thing. And actually

then South Africa will be less anti-Israel and anti-Semitic. Our Muslim population for hundreds of years has lived cheek and jive with the Jewish population. They've been moderate, they've worked together until Iran got involved in South Africa. And that's when Hamas set up an office in Cape Town. There've been people protesting, there's a huge free Palestine anti-Israel surge in South Africa and a lot of tension. And our Jewish population has gone, and I get the numbers slightly wrong, has gone down from 100,000 to 20,000 people.

A lot of the Jews in this country have said, we've seen this before, we're getting out. But they've been able to go somewhere. They were Israel to go to. The Afrikaners, the Afrikaners, the white tribe of Africa came here in 1650, and they don't have a place to go back to. They're not from Europe or Holland. They live here. We are the white tribe of Africa. On this point, Rob, could you actually break down for me? You mentioned that some tribes aren't really considered to be part of the larger grouping for whatever reason. Maybe it's just a loyalist question. I don't know. But can you lay out for me just how South Africa breaks down in terms of these different racial groups and tribes?

There are 60 million people in South Africa, plus another 8 million illegal foreigners roaming around. And South Africa is twice the size of France. It's a very large country. Racial breakdown on very simple numbers is about 80%, 8-0, black tribes and 20% white coloured Indian other. In the 20%, whites are about 7%, the coloureds, which is as I mentioned a mix of white and other races, are about 8% and then the other 5% of people of Indian heritage and other. So, black 80%, everything else 20% is the way to look at it. However, take the white tribe, there are two white tribes. There's the Africana,

a Dutch-German-French descent, Huguenot descent from the 1650s, and they represent about 55, 60% of the white tribe population. Then the Anglos, which I belong, came from England, Russia, wherever else, Greece, they form the sort of Anglo-whites. Amongst the black tribes, there are the Zulus, the Korsas, the Tswana, I think there are 26 different African black tribes, black South African tribes. Each with a different language. We've got 12 official languages in South Africa, starting with English. 12. So it's the Tower of Babel, is that right? All the languages, all the cultures, it really shouldn't be one country. It almost should be three different countries.

And there is an initiative called Cape Exit, which is to have the Western Cape and maybe the Northern Cape, bottom corner of South Africa, secede from South Africa. There's been a big movement to do that, because it has its own culture, and it's almost a different part of South Africa to anything else. But how does this potential secessionist movement fit into this picture? So I don't think it can happen. Capex, it can't happen. But the message is loud and clear, how do we fix South Africa? We push decisions down, we create allow minorities to have more autonomous organisation, territorially, and we create federalisation. Follow the American model, you know, make it more federal. It's the only way forward for South Africa to survive. The Cape province has nothing in common with Quasilion, Natal, or the Upomalanga provinces.

They're almost different countries. So the answer is federalize. In other words, give the states more powers basically. Correct. All cities, provinces, which are states and cities. Absolutely right. Instead of having a national police force, allow the individual provinces to have police force, allow them to run their own railway systems. That's exactly the way to go. That's the answer, and I'm hoping in 2029, there will be a real momentum in that direction. one of the benefits in the US, they describe the

states famously as the laboratories of democracy. So you can kind of see how different states do things. And they do things quite dramatically differently. In many cases, you can kind of see what works better and what's not. So you can kind of test your theories at some level. Yeah, I mean, you look at California on the one hand and Florida on the other, they're becoming worlds apart. Blue pool, red pool. I think that's what you describe it as.

This has been an absolutely fascinating discussion for me. A final thought as we finish? me a final thought as we finish? There's always hope over experience. For the last 120, 140 years, South Africa has been from crisis to crisis, at war, internally, externally. And we've been through extraordinary times. And every few years, people are all leaving and giving up hope and then something happens to save the day where we believe in ourselves and our country again. And I'm at a low ebb right now in my belief in the country and my hope for the country. But around the corner maybe we are the nation, and maybe something good will happen. Rob Hersov, it's such a pleasure to have had you on.

Thank you, Jan. What an honor to be on Epoch Times and on your show. Thank you all for joining Rob Hersov and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Jan Jekielek.