An Army of Normal Folks - 9/11 Isn’t History. It’s Still Happening (Pt 1)

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

2,977 people died on 9/11—but the tragedy didn’t end that day. Since then, over 3,000 people have died from Ground Zero-related illnesses, including 409 FDNY firefighters—more than died on the day itself. Niels Jorgensen was part of a whole Army of Normal Folks who put their own lives at risk by volunteering to clean up Ground Zero for 8 months and he contracted the rarest form of leukemia that nearly killed him. This episode reveals the part of 9/11 that most Americans have never been told: it’s still claiming lives. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/#joinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

One of the older guys, Danny, said to me as we were walking up, we couldn't breathe, we're walking up the hill. And he says, we're all dead. And I just said, no, Dan, we made it. He goes, you don't get it, kid. How do you feel right now? Can you breathe? Can you? And I said, I feel like I swallowed a box of razor blades.

And I can't breathe. He goes, exactly. We just breathe in a bottle of poison, basically. Eventually, this will kill us all. Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband.

I'm a father. I'm an entrepreneur. And I'm a football coach in inner city Memphis. And that last part somehow, well, it led to an Oscar for the film about one of my teams. That movie's called Undefeated. You see, guys, I believe our country's problems are just not ever going to be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using big words that nobody ever uses on CNN and father. but rather by an army of normal folks. That's us.

Just you and me deciding, hey, you know what, maybe I can help. That's what Nils Jorgensen, the voice you just heard, is done. Nils is a 9-11 firefighter who contracted the rarest form of leukemia from ground zero's toxic environment. Only 500 people in all of North America have it at any one time,

and nine, nine, nine-11 firefighters got it in six months. They suffered because of their service, and often their volunteer service, as many of them came to ground zero while they were off duty to clean it up for much longer than most people know. Over eight and a half months, Nils and the FDNY Brotherhood

will teach you about loyalty and commitment like no one else. Right after these people, brief messages for our generous sponsors. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything. Here, the Nick Dick and Poll show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Kugler did that I think was so unique.

He's the writer-director. Who do you think he is? I don't know. Do you meet the, like, the president? You think Canada has a president? You think China has a president? the law cruzette. God, I love that thing.

I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at night. It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. It was a good one. I like that saying. It is an actual Polish saying. It is an actual Polish saying.

Better version of Play Stupid Games, win stupid prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift, who said that for the first time. I actually thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick Dick and Paul show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us.

The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From IHeart Podcasts, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam.

I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. Do you rate me? They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a landmine. For free time. Let's get out. Freedom from Vietnam.

Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon, starting on April 22nd, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte? In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Like when Sarah Jessica Parker shared that she forgot we filmed the pilot episode.

You forgot about it? I completely forgot about it. And when the show was picked up, I panicked. And Cynthia Nixon reveals if she's a Miranda. We both feel confident about our brains. But that's kind of where it ends. Plus, Sex and the City super fan, Megan V. Stelion, doesn't hold back on her opinions of the show. Carrie will literally go set New York on fire and then come back and type about it.

at the end of the day. Like half of it wasn't her fault. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a host of the Wicked Words podcast. Each week I sit down with the true crime writers behind some of the most compelling true crime stories and discuss their years spent investigating

and why it still matters. He sees his father coming out of the woods with his hands over his face. And he knows something happened. His father just grabs him and says she's gone. She's gone. These are the cases that leave survivors, families, and the journalists who cover them changed forever.

Working in national television, it'll push you to your limits, and you'll end up doing things you never thought you'd do. You know, you look back at it and you're like, I can't believe that really happened. Join me and step inside the investigation. New episodes drop every Monday on the exact, Right Network. Listen to Wicked Words on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Nils Jorgensen in the house. What's up, buddy? Yes, sir, Bill. Thank you for having me.

You just told me it's been five years since we last visited. Yes, sir. Five years, summer of 2021. Is that when it was? Yeah. Had time flies, doesn't it? Too fast. I'm getting old. Oh, I'm feeling 100. Everybody listen to every minute of today because it's going to be thought-provoking, heart-tugging, and without a doubt, there'll be some humor involved. Nils is a retired FDNY firefighter. He's a 9-11 responder. He's the host of 2020 for podcast, and I actually consider him a buddy. FD.N. FIREFRITER FRITER, fell in love with him about five years when I first met them. And I have a T-shirt and a hat from the one, what do you call it?

The 114 truck. So, like 114 truck or ladder 114. Latter 114 truck, Firehouse in New York that Nils gave me that I still wear. And he's just one of the coolest guys in the world. So I'll quit talking about you. And we're just going to jump into it, buddy, and let people. People know who in the they're listening to today, which is guys truly an American hero sitting across from me. And I love them for it.

So, Nils, after searching for bodies all day and night, you finally left Ground Zero at 4 a.m. on September 12, 2001. And one of the old firefighters you were with said, we're all dead. why did he say that when both of you were alive at that moment? Just first, Bill, just want to jump back. I'm not a hero. I just did my job that day. The way my dad raised me, he was an FDMI fireman for 35 years. The heroes were the guys who knowingly and willingly gave their lives that morning.

And unfortunately, in the days after, from the many illnesses. But that particular instance, we were. were coming back from search, rescue recovery duty, and we were just physically spent, caked with dust in our eyes, in our throats, in our noses, and our chief basically ordered us to go back and clean up, regroup, get fresh gear, and come back again in search. So that's what we did. We hopped the bus. We were walking through the battery tunnel, which was shut down, and we just happened to get spotted by some police officers who said. sent the bus to us. He drove us back to our firehouse in Brooklyn, and as we got dropped off at

one of the firehouses, which was only a block in an avenue up from our firehouse, there used to be two single structures that are now combined years later. So as we were walking up the hill from the one firehouse, which was engine 201, which was my childhood best friend John, his command, John ended up dying that morning. the older guys, Danny said to me as we were walking up, we couldn't breathe, we're walking up the hill, and he says, we're all dead. And I just said, no, Dan, we made it. He goes, you don't get it, kid. How do you feel right now? Can you breathe? Can you? And I said, I feel like I swallowed a box of razor blades, and I can't breathe. He goes, exactly, we just, we just breathe in a bottle of

poison, basically. Eventually, this will kill us all. That moment, and the reason we opened there, is because, while I think a lot of people know the story of the day, they really aren't aware of the story of the days after, which we're going to get to, because I think it's really important. But that comment proved to be somewhat of a fortune teller type comment. For those of the listeners who don't know your story, I want to get into life after 9-11 with you a bunch.

But a three, four, five-minute recap of how that day started for you and how you ended up with that fall on your lungs. Sure. I was actually off-shift that morning. We have what we call group numbers, which is like a platoon. There's four different platoons. And my group number happened to be off that day. So I was on one of my moonlights at the time I was running three jobs.

And strange enough, my little daughter, who's now going to be 29, she looked at me early that morning as she was getting ready to go to pre-K. And she said, Daddy, which truck are you driving today? The fire truck, the oil truck, or the meat truck. All you guys had second jobs, right? Yeah, that's kind of par for the course up there because it's so darn expensive. of, you know, New York City is probably neck and neck with San Francisco, London. I mean, it's just a real friggin' expensive place to live. So, and the meat truck was a plug, Boar's Head Company.

I drove a route for a gentleman I knew. But I just thought to myself, wow, my daughter's only four years old, and she realizes I have a dangerous job. And I think that had a lot to do with both her grandpas, also FDMI. So she kind of got it at a really young age. And I said, no, sweetie, I'm going to be okay today. I'm going to drive the oil truck. And it was actually the first day back for the season.

Normally, part-timers, they kept you busy up until about May. And then you went off for the summer and you came back September. Beautiful morning, similar to the weather we're having here today in Memphis. Sunny skies, 75 degrees. And I just said, wow, this is way too hot to be delivering oil. And within a few minutes, took the truck, started to head out. I actually was on service that day to take out a tank first. And I had a guy with me.

And within a minute or so of leaving the yard, we heard on the news radio. This was back before iPhones, obviously, that plane had struck the tower. So being cynical, being jaded, I'm like, ah, it's probably some lear jet. you know, he tried to get in close for a picture for his client and the wind buffeted them into the building. That's what we all thought back then. For people that are younger that don't really remember living that day, the first news thing, and my gosh, it was a gorgeous day in New York that day. There wasn't a cloudless guy. You could see forever.

And the thing was, you know, I think everybody thought this is some, you know, weekend pilot that, it screwed up and crashed his plane into a building. And that, even as a New York City firefighter that day, that was kind of your first inclination, was a helicopter or plane or some idiot bouncing in the building. That's going to be a mess, and lives have been lost. But the initial blush was nothing like what it ended up being. Yeah, and the thing is, in New York City, the apartment is so big

that they don't want you, if you're off-duty, racing into large incidents. because there's so many on-duty platoon that they don't want to lose accountability. Now, if guys start rushing in... Who's there? Where's Bill? You know, where's Alex? Where's Cassius? Where's Nells?

I don't know. Where was he? He was off. So you just hear and think, well, that's going to be a busy day for some of my friends. Let me go on my old truck delivery. Yeah, fifth, sixth alarm for low Manhattan. They'll be pulling companies from around the city, as we call relocation, which is to fill in those areas that are now gapped.

So I went about my day because there's nothing I could do to help. And it wasn't a dumpster fire yet. No, no, it was going to be a bad day, but it was going to be something the guys they could handle. Manageable. They trained for it. The buildings were built, unfortunately, to accept that. So it was just one of those like, wow, this is going to be a really bad fire. Guys are going to have some really interesting stories.

but I'm missing this one. I'm off. Yeah, I'm going to deliver a while. Within a couple minutes, then all of a sudden, I was tuned into the radio and I hear the second plane, and I immediately knew I was at the first bombing in 1993.

And later on that evening, we got pulled in as an extra company to relieve the guys who'd been there all day. And I was with an older fireman named Henry Miller back in 1993. And when you're a young guy, They keep you under the wing of an older guy so you don't stray off and get hurt and killed. And Hank was looking around and he just went, yeah, you know what?

They blew it up in the wrong spot. They hit it here in the middle. If they did it out toward a column, they were to drop the building down the Canal Street, which is like a half mile up the road from the Trade Center. Well, the strange, cruel irony of that is Hank was on duty in 2001, September 11th. same truck ladder 105 which was my first truck and Hank was with a young firefighter Dennis Oberg Jr who happened to be my lieutenant from 114's rookie as we say proby son so Dennis and Hank were together and they died together at the trade center so it was kind of

strange and prophetic it's a sick irony yeah it's cruel because I knew the both of them. They were just two really wonderful, wonderful human beings. But for Hank to have that foresight, like he knew, he said to me, he said, in your career, you will be back here for the next one. And in 1995, they actually had a training manual with a picture of the trade center. And on the cover was the towers with a bullseye. And it said, not a matter of if, but a matter of when, be ready. In 95. In 95. So post 93, we said, started doing proactive training, excuse me, and a preparedness for the next attack. Why did the FDNW?

Why? How did they know? I don't know. You know, I think the higher-ups were probably tipped off by, you know, federal agencies, people in the know to be ready. Like, these guys aren't given up on this just yet. And I have to believe that they had to have us ready. Let's go back briefly to the 93 thing.

Again, there's people listening to us that maybe recall it, but as I remember it, you straightened me out, and you were on site. Yeah. Didn't they, wasn't that like a car bomb they put in a parking lot, and it caused a hell of a lot of damage? but obviously the structure handle. It was an actual, well, I don't want to tip off the company and ruin their stock or anything,

but it was a rental van, a large moving, you know, what you see on the roads all the time, people move out of their apartment, 20-foot box truck. Full of explosives. Full of explosives. They rented it. They parked it in the underground garage, which was literally in the core of the tower.

And that garage was, what, five, six-storries? It was below ground, so it was... But five or six down. Oh, it was probably... Yeah, at least three, I would think. You know, we call them subsellers. So, you know, in Manhattan, you've got the building, but then you've got almost sometimes 10 stories of...

Going down. Yeah. So it was well in the core. They did their homework. The only problem is the building was built so well that it absorbed this massive crater, which was caused by this explosion, in the middle of the building. And except for maybe shaking the building a little bit, it didn't do it. Underneath it.

But what Hank was saying, had they parked this thing on a corner? Yes. It would have taken out a supporting column quite possibly, which would then almost tilt it down, you know, just drop it down like a domino. And instead they parked in the middle. And so the four posts held it. Yeah, they underestimated the strength of the structure. Unfortunately, they probably taught them a lesson though. Oh yeah, they waited and they patiently waited. and they did their follow-up homework, and unfortunately, they succeeded.

And now, a few messages from our generous sponsors. But first, I hope you'll consider signing up to join the Army at normalfolks. By signing up, you'll receive a weekly email with short episode summaries in case you happen to miss an episode, or if you prefer reading about our incredible guests. We'll be right back. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about, and they are experts at everything.

Here, the Nick Dick and Poll show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Googler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director. Who do you think he is? I don't know. You mean, like, the president? You think Canada has a president. You think China has a president?

Does law a russet. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at night. It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep. It was a good one. It is an actual Polish saying.

It is an actual Polish saying. It is an actual Polish saying. Better version of Play Stupid Games, win stupid prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick Dick and Poll Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From My Heart Podcasts, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart.

This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a landmine. Or freeze on. Let's get out. Freedom, bomb it.

Run! Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon, starting on April 22nd. On the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte?

In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Like when Sarah Jessica Parker shared that she forgot we filmed the pilot episode. You forgot about it? I completely forgot about it. And when the show was picked up, I panicked.

And Cynthia Nixon reveals if she's a Miranda. We both feel confident about our brains. But that's kind of where it ends. Plus, Sex and the City superfan, Megan V. Stelion, doesn't hold back on her opinions of the show. Carrie will literally go sit New York on fire and then come back and type about it at the end of the day. Like half of it wasn't her fault. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

your podcasts. I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, host of the Wicked Words podcast. Each week I sit down with the true crime writers behind some of the most compelling true crime stories and discuss their years spent investigating and why it still matters.

He sees his father coming out of the woods with his hands over his face and he knows something happened. His father just grabs him and says she's gone. She's gone. These are the cases that leave survivors, families and the journalists who cover them changed forever. Working in national television, it'll push you to your limits, and you'll end up doing things

you never thought you'd do. You know, you look back at it and you're like, I can't believe that really happened. Join me and step inside the investigation. New episodes drop every Monday on the Exactly Right Network. Listen to Wicked Words on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so you're driving the oil truck, a second plane hits. Now you know this is not some commuter guy screwing up. No, I knew right away. I said, oh, my gosh, this is, because initially still, they didn't really identify the aircraft for moments later.

And then when they said, okay, this is a commercial aircraft into the tower. Then I started to get a little bit like, all right, this isn't good. And then upon I didn't see, obviously, the video, but I heard the radio announcer, I realized like, wow, we're under attack. So I raced the truck back. I parked it. I just told my boss, I got to go. He knew his son was a cop. And I just got in my car, and I had a little yellow Volkswagen Beetle at the time.

Great car. Guys used to make fun of me. Which is hilarious. Everybody's sitting here. What are you, six, four? Maybe pre-chemo, I guess, but I'm a little six-fay. Listen, yeah. Nils is a huge big man.

And when you told me the first time you raced away in a little yellow beetle, I mean, you must have looked like a bear at the circus in that thing. You filled it off, I'm certain. My buddies, especially my buddy Bobby Adams, so I love dearly. We called it my clown wagon. And, you know, when I first pulled up to the firehouse the first day, eight guys ran out and popped the doors and jumped in and closed the doors. And so that was the running joke, you know.

But hey, I was, I had no shame. It was, it was cheap. It was stick shift. I got it for $5,000 off the sticker because of that. So I'm racing in my little yellow beetle. I come across the Verasano Bridge and it was weird. Usually that is a parking lot from that bridge on to downtown Manhattan, which is only probably about 10, 11 miles, but it could be a two-hour, just killer

ride and it was there was nobody and i realized after the fact i think people just turned around and got the hell out of dodge when they heard what was going on so it wound up opening up the highway and my father always from the minute i got on the department he would always just just constantly rehash things with me he's a very good fireman very safety conscious and he said look there's something called recall recall means when it's all going bad and in the city, police, fire, EMS are obligated to report to their command for further orders. He said, if it's all going bad, you go to your firehouse. You don't race into a scene because if you do and something happens, they're not looking

for you because they don't know you're there. So all of a sudden... So you're in your Beatle Hall on the... I'm hearing it. And I'm at the make or break point. I'm at the exit to my firehouse or if I stay on the Brooklyn Queens Expressway, I could shoot right into Manhattan. And I happen to have my turn-out.

ear, my helmet, bunker pants. You know, I had it in my trunk because I had been sent to a different work location to shift prior. So I theoretically could have raced in, but then my whole thought was, who am I marrying up to? You know, like my truck, I don't know if they're there or not. Where am I getting orders? Everything. So I followed my father's advice. He was in my ear.

Do the right thing. Go to your firehouse. I pull into the firehouse. Which is 114. A ladder 114, 114 truck, and it's empty. It's this little standalone, narrow 130-year-old building, you know, built in the 1800s. And I do the pass key to get in the door, and I just hear the computer beeping. The computer dispatch sent them to that response, and then there was a follow-up message.

So if someone doesn't respond on the computer, it'll just continually beep for hours and hours until someone respond. So that beeping prompt was going off, and I looked real quick at the response ticket. And I said, 114, respond to Vessian West World Trade Center, aircraft crash. And I said, oh, my God, they're on their way. So I turned on the apartment radio, and I could hear my Dennis Oberg, my lieutenant, whose son was also working. I hear him switching over to the Manhattan radio frequency. Like 114, Tally Ho was responding to Manhattan.

Tallyho is our nickname. And I called into command the 40th Battalion. The chief's driver said, look, once you get about a dozen guys, make sure everybody signed in, take all the extra gear you can, air bottles, search ropes, whatever you have stashed in the basement of the firehouse. Get a city bus and get down to the trade center site. So... Get a city bus.

Yeah, because the city bus route passed right by a firehouse. And that would... But the point is... Our listeners need to think about what's happening here. You're waiting for other people to show up. Y'all are going to grab whatever you can, and you're going to commandeer a bus and hollings. Yeah, because we needed to bring our stuff with us.

Okay, but see, that's what I mean. Yeah. You guys hook or crook any means possible. You're rolling. Yeah, I mean, you know, we adapt to whatever the situation is. Like, if the truck brakes, we'll run or we'll walk or we'll carry. You know, we just had to quickly adapt to those. tactics. So how many guys showed up? So we got we probably had about I would say about 14 guys

off duty, you know, they were various side jobs. A couple guys had been at a benefit golf outing for a fireman who was previously killed. So they raced in. So basically once we all signed in, one of the lieutenants who was assigned took command. He was off duty. He took command now of these guys, he told me, run out, waved down a bus, explain what's going on, and tell him he's got to take us down. So I ran outside. I flagged down the bus, and I remember this gentleman, I believe his name was John, and I shame on me. I should know it. I hopped on the bus, I explained in what was going on, and I asked the passengers to leave. And being typical jaded New Yorkers, a couple and told me to go screw myself, who are you? And I said, well, I'm firing. And I said, I don't know

if you realize we're under attack right now, we need this boss. So they grumbled and they got off. And, you know, I mean, I feel bad. A couple of them elderly had, you know, helped them off with their groceries, this, that. So we hopped on with John. We proceeded down on the route from that firehouse in Sunset Park, Brooklyn. We stopped at, I believe, two other firehouses that were on the way, picked up some guys there. And we had a couple of the bosses had the point.

and radios like handhelds where you could pick up what's going on in the radio traffic. And as we were coming over to Brooklyn Bridge, the second tower came down. And we just heard the chaos on the radio. And I just said to myself, 114 got in there. I actually heard Lieutenant Oberg say 1084 is our arrival code. We've arrived at Vessian West, proceed. to the command post. So that was minutes and minutes before coming over the bridge.

So I knew he was there. And I just got sick to my stomach because I said to myself, a boss who I love who taught me to be a fireman, taught me to be a good man, you know, like he was just like my dad, you know, and him and the crew, my friends, five other guys plus him, guys who I love and hung out with and busted balls with. and had the greatest times with, and my mind are all gone.

And then, you know, that guilt sets in because you realize I'm too late. I didn't make it. I didn't make it to help my guys. I'm a failure. And we got in. John, the bus driver, dropped us off. We backed them up, turned them around.

I said, hey, man, thank you. You went above and beyond. And at that point, the dust was coming down and the bus was covered. And I said, brother, God bless you. Thank you. You didn't have to do this. And he goes,

God bless you, be careful, and I never saw him again. And it was kind of weird and haunting because as this bus is leaving and as people just walking across the Brooklyn Bridge covered in dust and you just walked into what looked like the ends of the earth, it was just debris and dust and, you know, people laying all over the place injured. And it was just, it was almost like you woke up to a bad nightmare and you were trying to just dust it, you know, wipe out your eyes and go, okay, wake up now.

And then that's when the real nightmare started because we became aware of, at the time, they had deemed about 400 plus firemen missing and obviously thousands of civilians and hundreds of other first responders. So within that first 24-hour period, They got a few people out. There was the members of Ladder Company 6 had helped walk a lady down the stairs.

And by the grace of God, they were trapped in a staircase that folded around them, which saved their lives. I can't believe anybody survived. Yeah, it was phenomenal. You could, when you looked at the debris pile, it was unimaginable. And then a couple of police officers, Port Authority police officers were dug out later that evening. And I remember later on in the night, We were on a line of shuttling in equipment and trying to get to the police officers. So this older guy from my dad's old truck, 172 truck, I just happened to see him.

He goes, hey, bro, come over here with me, give me a hand. So we kind of branched off about 100 feet, 200 feet away from the main fray. We went down into this kind of valley of debris. And it just looked like a gray desert, but just loaded up with all sorts of jagged metal. But then the strange part about it was there was ladies' shoes and pocketbooks and a couple sneakers, briefcases. And he looked at me and he goes, bro, what do you hear? I said, I hear hissing like a gas line, maybe a broken water line, but some of the dust would fall down. It almost sounded like, you know, sand in the wind.

And he goes, no, no, but what else do you hear? And I went, nothing. He goes, yeah, why isn't anybody screaming for help? Why isn't anybody saying, come get me? Where the frig are they? And he goes, bro, they're dead. No one's coming out of here. This is just a recovery at this point.

And I didn't want to believe that, you know, at that first night because we were full of hopes that there's going to be people in, you know, sort of crevasses where, you know, like they were in a space, you know, void, just waiting to be rescued. and the horrifying thing was on our self-contained breathing apparatus, which is your air mask and your tank, there was a device called a pass alarm, which if you stop moving for 30 seconds, it starts sending out a shriek, a signal. You heard those. Yeah, so it's a beacon so they can come find you in the smoke or a collapse.

And we could hear those muffled in the distance, several of them. And each one of those represented a deadfire. Firefighter. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was their last call. And it kept going off until the batteries died. And it was kind of strange because it played on your mind. You know, it wasn't a guy calling out to you, but in a way it was his last call.

And, you know, again, the guilt, you know, why my friend John? Why John, not me? Why, you know, I don't know. Someday maybe I'll have those answers. We'll be right back. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about, and they are experts at everything.

Here, the Nick Dick and Poll show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Kugler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director. Who do you think he is? I don't know. You mean the president? You think Canada has a president? You think China has a president?

Does law a crusette. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at night. It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep. It was a good one. It is an actual Polish saying.

It is an actual Polish saying. Better version of Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift, who said that for the first time. I actually thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick Dick and Paul show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us.

The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From My Heart Podcasts, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam.

I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a land. Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon, starting on April 22nd, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast. Are You a Charlotte? In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Like when Sarah Jessica Parker shared that she forgot we filmed the pilot episode. You forgot about it?

I completely forgot about it. And when the show was picked up, I panicked. And Cynthia Nixon reveals if she's a pilot episode. Miranda. We both feel confident about our brains. But that's kind of where it ends. Plus, Sex and the City superfan, Megan V. Stelion, doesn't hold back on her opinions of the show. Carrie will literally go sit New York on fire and then come back and type about it at the end of the day. Like half of it wasn't her fault. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, host to of the Wicked Words podcast. Each week I sit down with the true crime writers behind some of the most compelling true crime stories and discuss their years spent investigating and why it still matters. He sees his father coming out of the woods with his hands over his face,

and he knows something happened. His father just grabs him and says, she's gone, she's gone. These are the cases that leave survivors, families, and the journalists who cover them changed forever. Working in national television, it'll push you to your limits, and you'll end up doing things you never thought you'd do. You know, you look back at it and you're like, I can't believe that really happened. Join me and step inside the investigation.

New episodes drop every Monday on the Exactly Right Network. Listen to Wicked Words on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you realize at that point the world you woke up in and the world you were standing in? had changed. Yeah, I did, Bill. The way that set in, actually, didn't set in until the afternoon of the 11th. There was fighter jets flying over us every two minutes, three minutes.

You just hear him screaming, screaming over the site. They would get down towards South Ferry, New York Harbor, and they would just whip into a turn and bank back. because now this guy, although there was a lot of smoke, you know, the dust you could see in areas, it was still blue, still sunny. And you see a fighter jet come screaming around and through the smoke and, you know, just over your head. And I'm just saying to myself, we're at war. Like, this is a war.

And, you know, we still kept getting reports that there was other secondary acts of terrorism that were going to take place. They were going to blow bridges. They were going to blow tunnels. They were going to strike the site. Leaguance or inaccurate or not. So you guys were being told that this wasn't it in New York, that other things were happening. Yeah. Or potentially it could happen.

Well, first couple hours, we were getting rumors that there was still aircraft up above around the United States looking to do damage. That basically they thought that they were just going to wait it out. out for a little while and then strike us as we were trying to go in and help those souls that were already lost. So it was really... Were you scared? Oh, yeah. I mean, anybody who tells you they weren't foolish. I mean, it was, yeah, I mean, it's something you can't prepare for because, you know, look, I was a weekend warrior, right? I was, well, I shouldn't say that because that's disparaging, but I was a proud member of the New York Army

National Guard, United States Army National Guard. United States Army. Army Reserve prior to that for eight years. And we prepared for all sorts of craziness, but on a battlefield. And now we were home. You know, the difference between us and the military was this was the city we served, but it wasn't a battlefield. It wasn't a war zone. It was home.

And now they brought the war to us. So you felt kind of vulnerable in a sense that, holy crap, I'm trying to go in here and hopefully bring out who's still in, and they're looking to kill me. And I realized from that point till today, till eternity, we're not safe in our own shores anymore. There's people that want to hurt us and want to kill us. Look, it just happened in Texas a couple days ago.

It happens probably once a week. And the press, we're so immune to it now, it's just hardly mentioned, right? we hardly, you know, hey, what's the score of the game? Oh, by the way, there was a mass shooting down in New Orleans. Oh, really? Yeah. And they just move on to the next story, like nothing. What were the next hours like?

Just a lot of chaos. It was really tough to get a semblance of command and structure because... Where were you in the second tower, Phil? So we were on the bridge coming in. By the time we got our gear and got our ride on that boat, us. Did you see it? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, we, you know, we were kind of discussing what we were going to do when we got there, so we weren't really staring at the bridge because it was, it was kind of, I'm excuse me, at the towers, because it was also kind of sad because we're like, we knew the other one had already gone down. And then all of a sudden, like, just, like, we heard the chaos on the radio. And then it was like, shit, the other tower just went down. So, you know, I wasn't, I mean, I know you've interviewed Tim Brown, who's a wonderful, wonderful guy.

Tim's experience was howling and haunting. And I don't have that. I wasn't there for that. I got in as an after-the-fact. And even seeing what those guys went through was haunting. I could only imagine what it was like for those first hour or so. before it all went down. But then the hours following was just this desperate search of every area we could possibly, you know, cover.

My search team at a point in time after number seven went down, we got dispatched up to that area. And then there was a big post office there and a couple of adjoining office towers with reports of people trapped in those buildings. So we were searching in there for hours just to see if there was any, you know, you know, life. Did the cloud of smoke just hover? Because, all right. A couple of things about the cloud that I've, I've, since meeting you and Tim, I've thought about,

and I don't know that I've ever understood. We've all seen the videos of when the thing falls and this cloud ominously running down the streets and people trying to outrun the cloud. Yeah. Right? One, give us a sense of how far that cloud went. And two, how long did it hover while you guys were there?

And, you know, you kind of feel like, you know, if you kick up some dust, it hovers and then it blows away. But I get the sense that this stuff just didn't leave for a long time. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm trying to give our listeners a – a mental picture of what that was. Yeah. Well, to the best of my recollection, if you've ever seen videos of a dust storm in the desert,

and it just comes upon like a wall. Yeah, I've seen those. So that was similar to... Like sandstorms. Yeah, yeah, exactly, a sandstorm. So that would be what I would say it appeared to look like upon the second collapse that I saw, and that seemed to envelop all, you know, Manhattan from,

we could see on the bridge, it went all the way down to the battery, which is a good, almost a half a mile. And up the other way, half a mile toward Canal Street. I mean, it just seemed like that whole... I think it just seemed like... It just seemed like it was completely enveloped. And it was black. Yeah, thick, thick, like the thickest fog you've ever seen. But with a density, like...

Couldn't see three feet in front of it. No. But that seemed to disdeme to disdive. after, you know, not too long, but what remained was the smoke, I mean, the smoke remained for months in certain sections until all the fires could be put out because a lot of them were underground. But, you know, if you've ever seen like a wildfire or forest fire where the smoke just goes with the wind and it just, it's just thick and it hangs. And that's kind of, I think, what was going on there for a long time.

depending on the wind shift, you see a lot of these old photos from helicopters and planes, and you could just see this huge wall of smoke creeping across New York Harbor into Jersey City across the Hudson. That for the first couple days was, yeah, a lot of smoke. You guys were there breathing all this crap in, and it's not just dust, it's concrete dust and everything else. One of the things people have a hard time understanding is that the fires, two, three, four, five stories beneath the ground continue to burn. But what was burning? Because it was concrete and metal.

How does that burn? Well, what was burning was a combination of all the plastics, all the materials. Like, look at this room, right? And you see everything within it. Well, times that, times thousands of office rooms in those tax. hours, right? All the effects, personal effects, decorations, furniture, carpenting, all of that was just a huge pile. And then you had the fuel from the planes. So, yes, the concrete was not burning. The steel was not burning, but everything that was within it was. So it was just like a huge

the toxicity. Oh, yeah, because it was all bad stuff. I mean, plastic is bad, you know, Then there was all sorts of insulated materials. Then you had the polyvinyl chloride, you know, PVC piping. Just, it was just a toxic brew. Did it stink? Yeah, yeah, it stunk. What does smell like? It smell like death.

It was, I hate to be so disrespectful to the soul's loss, but it was a combination of all of the contents of those structures. and then it was mixed in with all of those poor human beings that were just crushed and battered. And, you know, unfortunately, while the fires were raging, a lot of those folks were burned to death. That's why they so desperately jumped out the windows. You know, you have to be in excruciating pain

to choose jumping 95 stories over staying there and burning. And my heart just breaks for those people, because, you know, I've, I've been in some fires where, you know, we were somewhat caught and it wasn't good. And but we had gear. We had, you know, we were protected. You know, I ended up with some minor burns. But by the grace of God, I was never seriously burned. But those poor people, I mean, that's the tragedy of it. And we're not allowed to show that anymore because it's considered offensive or I don't know,

this crazy new and improved world. I think they should show it once a month. so we don't forget it can happen again. You know, I hate to be prophet of doom, but it's going to happen again. I mean, it's inevitable because there's just evil on this planet that wants to punish us for being the free people that we are.

Which is why we can never forget, which is why talking about this is so important. And that concludes part one of our conversation. with Nils Jorgensen, and you guys, listen, don't miss part two. It's now available to listen to. Together, guys, we can change this country, but it starts with you. I'll see in part two. Now everybody over here, oh, it's one of my other favorite places, the Twilight Gazebo. Sunset Gardens, Twilight Gazebo. What's next? Dead Man's Grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this?

From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blackish, comes Big Age, an audible original about finding your way in life's next chapter. This audio comedy series follows a retired couple's reluctant relocation to Sunset Gardens, a Floridian senior community that is anything but relaxing. starring comedy legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer, and Niecy Nashvettes. Through its blend of outrageous comedy, key party anyone, and touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com slash big age series to start listening today. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte?

In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. From IHeart Podcasts, Saigon. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam?

One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. They're pouring patriots. Freedom for Vietnam! There's a fire coming to this country and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon, starting on April 22nd, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On paper, the three hosts of the Nick Dick & Poll show are geniuses. We can explain how AI works, data centers, but there are certain things that we don't necessarily understand.

Better version of Play Stupid Games Win Stupid Prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift, who said that for the first time. I actually thought it was. I got that wrong. But hey, no one's perfect. We're pretty close, though. Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Paul show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.