An Army of Normal Folks - 9/11 Isn’t History. It’s Still Happening (Pt 2)

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

2,977 people died on 9/11—but the tragedy didn’t end that day. Since then, over 3,000 people have died from Ground Zero-related illnesses, including 409 FDNY firefighters—more than died on the day itself. Niels Jorgensen was part of a whole Army of Normal Folks who put their own lives at risk by volunteering to clean up Ground Zero for 8 months and he contracted the rarest form of leukemia that nearly killed him. This episode reveals the part of 9/11 that most Americans have never been told: it’s still claiming lives.Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/#joinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, everybody. It's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks, and we continue now with part two of our conversation with Nils Jorgensen, right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about, and they are experts at everything. Here, the Nick Dick and Poll Show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Coogler did that I think was so unique He's the writer-director Who do you think he is? I don't know You mean it like the president? You think Canada has a president

You think China has a president Does La Crosette God I love that thing I use it all the time I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at like It's like the old Polish saying Not my monkeys, not my circus Yep

It's a good one I like that saying It's an actual Polish saying It is an actual point. Better version of Play Stupid Games, win Stupid Prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift,

who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Paul show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family,

and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country, From My Heart Podcast, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much.

I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. Do you rate me? They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a landmine.

For free time. Let's get out. Freedom from Vietnam. Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon, starting on April 22nd, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte?

In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Like when Sarah Jessica Parker shared that she forgot we filmed the pilot episode. You forgot about it? I completely forgot about it. And when the show was picked up, I panicked. And Cynthia Nixon reveals if she's a Miranda.

We both feel confident about our brains. But that's kind of where it ends. Plus, Sex and the City superfan. Megan B. Stelion doesn't hold back on her opinions of the show. Carrie will literally go set New York on fire and then come back and type about it at the end of the day. Like half of it wasn't her fault. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, host of the Wicked Words podcast.

Each week I sit down with the true crime writers behind some of the most compelling true crime stories and discuss their years spent investigating and why it still matters. He sees his father coming out of the woods with his hands over his face, and he knows something happened. His father just grabs him and says she's gone. She's gone. These are the cases that leave survivors, families, and the journalists who cover them changed forever.

Working in national television, it'll push you to your limits, and you'll end up doing things you never thought you'd do. you know, you look back at it and you're like, I can't believe that really happened. Join me and step inside the investigation. New episodes drop every Monday on the exactly right network. Listen to wicked words on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I have people close to me who I love my family, my friends who say, do you think you talk about it too much? And I say, yeah, some people might think of it that I do.

but the reason I'll talk about it, anyone like yourself gives me an opportunity to talk about it, I will take the opportunity because I don't want it forgotten. You know, this is a huge part of our history. And you look at modern American history and, you know, except World War II or World War I, there was no bigger event that America faced than 9-11. Not since Pro Harbor, I don't know. Pro Harbor was just... But I see, I think I've actually said this to you before,

but I do believe this. I think there are moments in a country's cultural construct that you just never forget, that are pivot points for the whole country. And I think JFK assassination, I think, obviously, Pearl Harbor, and 9-11. I mean, there's a couple others, but the danger, my children only remember 9-11 from the videos

and what they've read about it. They don't remember 9-11 in a personal way, like I do. Yeah, like certainly like you do, but my age people do. and the danger and not making sure that high schoolers today understand that 9-11 didn't just happen, but understand the horrors of it. If they don't understand the horrors of it, it won't mean enough to them. If it doesn't mean enough to them, they're going to get lazy and allow it to happen to them again. Oh, I 100% agree.

I mean, if we can't learn from our past, we're doomed for a fact. failure in the future, you know, when you mention young people knowing about it, I mean, my kids are in their 20s and, you know, wonderful human beings, you know, just they work so hard, study so hard, and just they're good, good people, and they're highly aware of it. And I guess it was directly confronted them in their life. But five years back when I got to know you, and I was in the height of doing 20 for 20 podcast, which was a tribute to the 20. 20th anniversary.

You know, we interviewed a lot of the people who were directly affected by 9-11. And I was on a plane going home, and I was with my wife. And it was this young girl next to us. She was sitting in the row behind her grandma and her two sisters. And she was about 12 or 13, I guess, at the time. And I always wear this hat. And it's just out of tribute to my guys, but also because... Latter 114 truck hat.

Yeah. What we call us Talley Home. because, you know, I'm losing my hair and I'm trying to cover it up. You know, it's an overcompensation. But she saw my hat and she said, oh, sir, what's that hat? And I said, oh, that's, you know, New York City Fire Department. She said, oh, you fireman? I said, well, I'm retired now.

And she said, she's very honest, a matter of fact. She goes, you look a little bit young to be retired. And I was looking younger then. And I said, oh, I had gotten sick and I had to retire. I got sick from 9-11. And she looked at me with all honesty and sincerity. And she said, sir, what was 9-11? Wasn't that a plane that crashed into a building?

She said, they don't teach us anything about it in school. And I realized, I said, wow, like, this is this really sharp, intelligent young girl, but yet she really had zero knowledge because she wasn't taught. Only 16 years later. Yeah, well, this was, this was, say, toward the 20th. So, yeah, so 20, you know, in 2000, yeah, 21 years later. So, but still, she, she. So she obviously wasn't alive during it taking place.

But what troubled me was I started doing my own little research, and I realized then that in half the school districts in the United States, there is no curriculum to teach 9-11, anything about it. And in half of those districts that don't teach it, the teachers don't even have an option to do it on their own because it's considered offensive material. And I just had the honor Alex's sister-in-law as a teacher in Florida, and she was kind enough to invite me a couple times to teach her class and her school about 9-11. And it was more or less like a question and answering questions that the children had.

And I was so impressed with their thirst for the knowledge of it. I mean, they really blew me away with some of the questions. and one little man actually cracked me up. He was about five, and he asked me if I was in World War I. And I said, I don't want to laugh. I don't want to laugh at him and embarrassed him. So I looked over at the teachers. I went, I don't look too shabby for 130 years old, you know.

So I said, no, I was a little young for that one. I missed it. But he followed up with a question about 9-11 that was so pertinent. So it kind of restored my faith that, you know, teachers like Aubrey and, And, you know, other specific teachers are out there. They won't let it go away. They won't let it be forgotten. I'm going to veer off the road for a second and just give you an example.

I had the honor for the 80th anniversary of Normandy to help escort four World War II veterans to the anniversary at Normandy Cemetery. That's awesome. It was the top, I don't want to disrespect my wife from my kids. But it was probably right there in the top stuff I've been able to do in my life. I was absolutely humbled and in awe. And it was so beautiful to see the reception that our veterans received from the folks out in the French countryside. You know, we were all through Normandy, Omaha Beach, and Normandy Cemetery. And little French children that are about eight years old would run up and grab our veterans crying in French saying,

thank you for my freedom, thank you for my liberty. because these were the gentleman who actually liberated these villages and towns. But the fact is, those children knew. They knew. And then they were taught. And then a 90-year-old lady came to greet them, didn't speak any English, and through our interpreter, tears rolling down her cheeks, thanking our vets. Because their unit had liberated this town of St. Mary-Aglice. And this older lady, who was when she was 10, was...

trapped in like a ditch with her girlfriend as the Germans were bombing. As they were retreating, they wanted to just blow everything up. Well, they blew up the trench. And this lady and her girlfriend were struck with stradnal. And the gentleman from this unit, not these specific four soldiers, but their immediate comrades, rescued these girls. Unfortunately, the one girl died.

She bled to death. And they fixed this lady up. She survived. She was crying, thanking them. Because of you, I have lived a whole life. And I made sure that my children and my grandchildren and my great-grandchildren will never forget you. It was beautiful to see. And the tears coming down to veterans' faces.

And when they reunited with their brothers, who the last time they saw was when they turned around storming the beach, they never saw them again. They were in that cemetery. And that blew me away. but we really crush my soul and my heart is when I come back to my homeland, America, we don't give our veterans their due, especially those World War II. The few remaining guys who were, they were all about 100 now, and then the Korean War veterans to follow and the Vietnam veterans to follow. I mean, Vietnam veterans now are in their 70s, 80s.

We're losing these guys. It's crazy. It's crazy. But we have to take the chance now to thank them, Because if we don't, 20 years from now, it's an afterthought. But the same is the true with 9-11. The fact that, I mean, it really disheartens me that there's children that don't understand what happened that day and the heroism and the loss and the sadness and all of it.

I don't know why it's not. You said sometimes it's considered offensive. How is that even possible? You know, because of the politics involved, I mean, we were attacked by, you know, fundamentalists that wanted to, you know, force their religion upon us. And, you know, we're in a strange dynamic now in this world. It's like if you don't agree with me, I'll kill you, right? It used to be when you and I grew up, you could have a discussion. You could have a back and forth.

You could disagree, but you'd still walk away and shake hands. now it's just upside down. I mean, everybody's looking to be offended. They can't wait to just jump at you over the silliest little thing. I mean, we are so divided right now. I truly thought, I'll never forget this. We were digging it at World Trade Center. And it was days after.

And I just said to one of the older guys, I said, oh, maybe now, maybe now we'll become a really unified country. And I mean, you're going, kid, this will all be an afterthought. three months. Don't kid yourself. And I didn't want to believe that, right? Because, I mean, 9-12 was just such a beautiful day. As crazy as that sounds, I mean, obviously, the horror set in. We were attacked. We lost thousands. But people were lined up along the West Side Highway with flags, with posters. They were crying. They were so proud to be American. They were grateful. we have two crises crushing our country right now.

A gratitude crisis and a parenting crisis. To me, those are the two biggest problems afflicting us, and until we straighten those out, we're on a spiral down. It's a good segue because I think it's also important to be reminded that so many of the first responders has stayed on that, that heap with that dust and that toxic smoke and the stench of death that you've described, did so as volunteers, often not going home for many of you guys, maybe went and got a shower but came right back.

But if I remember correctly, off-duty firefighters just showed up, many without a formal assignment in the culture inside the FDN. why at that time was we're not going to leave anybody behind. We want to personally search the horror of this pile. And there was this more obligation to be there. And there was this army of firefighters who maybe that was their job, but many of them were out there on their own accord without formal orders digging. Is that a fair representation of what's going on? Oh, yeah. Very, very fair and accurate. We had thousands and thousands of firefighters and police officers, emergency medical technicians, paramedics, nurses, doctors from around the country that flowed in to help on their own time and their own nickel. And then the guys in the days after, you know, we had to restore a semblance of response for the city because after the first week, it was back to business as far as normal responses. You know, people's lives. in New York City moved on.

Hours, we were sort of stuck. Some of us stuck for 25 years. But most other people, they just went back to life, which meant 911 calls, crime, fires, emergency medical situations. So we had to jog and juggle our duties as responding on our normal tours of duty, but we also had the obligation.

There were a certain amount of people that were sent, or as we say, detailed down to the site to continue the dig and the recovery because after five days we realized it was only a recovery. But I would say 85% of our guys that were down there from September on through the end of May, 2002 were on their own time. You know, hundreds of hours, you know, jeopardizing their health. and obviously now all these years later, we realize the outfall from that. But it was what you did.

You know, you know, you know being a coach and playing football, the concept of a team. That's what being a first responder and being in the military is about. It's a team. There's no freaking eye. There is the team. And that's so we felt so obligated to get all of the, those people recovered so their families can have some closure. And, you know, the sadness of it is there's still less than half of the souls lost at 9-11

that have been identified. You know, 2,97 people that died that day between Pentagon, Shanksville, World Trade Center, and we've yet to identify half of them. We'll be right back. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything. Here, the Nick Dick and Poll Show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Cougler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director. Who do you think he is? I don't know. You mean it to like the president? You think Canada has a president. You think China has a president? You think China has a president. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time.

What color is there? I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at like. It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep. It was a good one. I like that saying. It is an actual Polish saying. Yeah.

It is an actual Polish saying. Better version of Play Stupid Games, win stupid prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick Dick and Poll Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us.

The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From My Heart Podcasts, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam.

I've taken a hit from... Japanese ground fire. Do you rate me? They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a landmine. Or freeze on. Let's get out.

Freedom, Mom, Vietnam. Sun. Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon, starting on April 22nd. On the I-heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte?

In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Like when Sarah Jessica Parker shared that she forgot we filmed the pilot episode. You forgot about it? I completely forgot about it. And when the show was picked up, I panicked. And Cynthia Nixon reveals if she's a Miranda. We both feel confident about our brains.

But that's kind of where it ends. Plus, Sex and the City superfan, Megan V. Stelion, doesn't hold back on her opinions of the show. Carrie will literally go sit New York on fire and then come back and type about it at the end of the day. Like half of it wasn't her fault. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, host of the Wicked Words podcast. Each week I sit down with the true crime writers behind some of the most compelling true crime stories and discuss their years spent investigating and why it still matters. He sees his father coming out of the woods with his hands over his face, and he knows something happened. His father just grabs him and says she's gone. She's gone. These are the cases that leave survivors, families, and the journalists who cover, them changed forever.

Working in national television, it'll push you to your limits and you'll end up doing things you never thought you'd do. You know, you look back at it and you're like, I can't believe that really happened. Join me and step inside the investigation. New episodes drop every Monday on the exactly right network. Listen to wicked words on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're very quick when I call you. call you and the first responders who made it out heroes to say we're not the heroes. The heroes are the ones that storming up stairwells when they, especially in the second tower after the first one fell, had to have known that the second tower was unstable, yet they

continued to try to save lives and serve. And certainly you're right. Those are heroes. You know, there's another set of heroes that we almost never talk about. And that's the wives and children who says, They give about of their husbands and fathers for the last time. We don't talk much about them and the trauma on them. Has there been support for those folks?

Yeah, there's been support. A lot of it was in-house, say, so to speak, from the particular firehouse that those that were lost were assigned to. There's also been support groups within their own. own community of loss, they've established their own support groups, you know, survivors, widows, children of the deceased. So they're not alone. Some of them choose to be alone and suffer in silence, but there are resources available. And then for our own guys that are hurting, there's various organizations, one of them that's near and dear to me, Nancy Carbone, when I call her our FDMI Angel Lady.

She runs friends of firefighters over in Brooklyn. It's in an old firehouse, and you could go there to seek counseling. You could go once a week, just have a sit-down breakfast with a bunch, mostly retired guys at this point. And one of our legendary guys who came on a department when my dad did in the early 60s was Tony Catapano, who since passed. And Tony Cat used to put on a breakfast every Tuesday morning for guys that chose to just, want to be back amongst that little reassurance. You know, the firehouse is a strange place. It's a fraternity house.

Yeah, well, we piss off a lot of the guys around the nation because they call it a fire station. A station is where you catch a bus or a train. Firehouse is where you park a fire truck or an ambulance because you live there. I'm sorry, guys. It is what it is. You're going to get some hate mail. My daughter, who's a nurse paramedic, calls the ambulance a truck, which we call the bus,

because people take it like a bus. And then she calls the station where they park. And I'm like, no, it's a firehouse. So, like, but that pisses off a lot of people. But it is. We live there. You spent 24 hours on shift. You know, after 9-11, you were pulling 48-hour shifts.

Yeah, people got to understand. You cook there. You live there. You take care of it like it's your house. Right. So you get really close with the guys that you work with. Sometimes just certain guys, you just don't click, either politically or you like the Yankees, he likes the Mets, holy shit, that's it.

You know, like, you know, you're with these people. You're with them a lot of times more than your own wife, your own children. So, yeah, but once you leave, you know, they train you and everything except for how to retire. I train you to a whole lot of shit. I love different crazy things, right? But they don't train you how to retire. I remember the day I had a hand in my badge. And that was it, signed off.

And I remember my old lieutenant goes, hey, did the brass band meet you outside as you were walking out of headquarters playing a song? I'm like, no. He goes, yeah, me neither. You just walk away. I mean, I got cut short. I only got, you know, just over 21 years. I planned on this year with my, I was a cop for short of two years. I would have had 37 years.

That was my exit plan. 37, 38 years. Going out of Florida, not be as fat as I am now and enjoy myself. But things didn't really work out that way. I got sick of how to leave. But it's okay. I'm still here. But I still, I've been out for 14 years.

I still can't manage retirement. I just, like, I love the fact that I don't have to answer to anybody, but I hate it. Because back when I had three jobs, this was shut down. You were on autopilot. All you did was work. And then when you went to the firehouse, it was like playing on a team. What do I got today, your defensive tackle or your first base? So you got your position on a truck and you just went in and you did it and you just didn't think about it.

When did the one FDNY lost 343 firefighters on 9-11? When did the weight of that? When you're digging in a pile, you don't even know those numbers yet. So it has to take some time. So when did the weight of that number sink in? And in an odd way, do you still feel guilt for not being one of the dead and you are one of the survivors? Well, we had 343 firemen. On 9-11.

On 9-11. We're going to talk about the ones after in a second. Father Michael Judge, our chaplain. There's another gentleman from what's called Fire Patrol, which was from the insurance. industry. They get sent out on a truck to protect, you know, wares and buildings and stuff before it got damaged. He, unfortunately, was passed as well. Thirty-seven Port Authority police officers, which they were charged with the security of the towers, the bridges, and the tunnels in and out of Manhattan to New Jersey. They lost 37 out of a force of 2000. New York City Police lost

23 officers, and then there was 12 court officers from the state courts, the federal courts, There was a couple federal agents and a few paramedics from the surrounding hospital services. So you have well over 400 just responders that day. Yeah, the guilt is huge. I mean, my friend John, who I just drank my first beer with John, you know, played football. We just, you know, went through becoming a man with John. And he passed that morning. He was on duty.

I wasn't. And he was just one of the greatest guys in the world. John Shard Engine 201, and the sad part about it is in this country, I bet you most people cannot name one first responder who died on 9-11. Or the gentleman from my hometown where I grew up, Staten Island, New York, which just recognized yesterday, Congressional Medal of Honor winner, posthumously, Staff Sergeant Michael Alas. He died protecting his squadmates from a suicide bomber.

He literally dove on top of another guy. to be in between, no one can tell you his name. Sad. My guilt is John's wife and my wife were pregnant on 9-11. We didn't know it. They didn't know it. And four or five days later, when we got the notification that the guys would now be deemed deadline of duty,

or his wife had called a firehouse, I said, could you please find him? I just found out I'm pregnant. So I finally got to go home after about five days. And my wife said to me, well, I have some good news. And it was a strange reunion because my son was only a year and a half. My daughter was four and a half. And my wife, with tears coming down in her face, says, well, I have some good news.

We're going to have another baby. And I felt horrible because I said, I was thrilled, but I said, that's great. I said, but John's wife's pregnant too. And he's not coming home. and we found he was found by another crew on Christmas Eve 01 he was given it took till Christmas to find his remains yeah but by the grace of God John was one of those guys who was more or less found intact really his wife was able to take his wedding band off of his hand she's she's a brave woman and then he was given a full Christian Catholic burial on New Year's Eve 01 into

And in May of 2002, his little boy, John Jr. was born. And five days before that, five days after that, my little girl, Catherine, was born. And I was just overjoyed. I mean, there's this little soul being brought into the world that's still, we were still digging, you know, when Catherine was born in a week. And all these years that I've had to watch her grow, you know, my three kids, you know, watched them grow into these wonderful, beautiful human beings, contributors to this world. John and all of my fellow friends,

they missed out. They missed out on so many events, birthdays, communions, confirmations, weddings now, that were older, their grandchildren. They've missed out in all of it. So, you know, every time I have a moment of joy with my family, family, I kind of try to be grateful, go off to the side, and I don't want anyone else to see me sad, but I'm sad because I got a chance and ate it. And that's, you know, I don't want to sound like a crybaby,

but it never goes away to guilt. It just never goes away. One thing on your family before we move on to is it's kind of an extension of what you said earlier, Bill, like Annie lost you for those nine months during the recovery. Like all you guys just being down there and in some sense like you've never fully recovered or return home right like there's a sense of you that's always been different ever since 9-11 and i think it's a good opportunity to pay tribute to even those of you that survived that day what all the spouses and the kids have sacrificed to yeah um you're right Alex you know we were emotionally absent or not present or just not we didn't want to be that way. But for that first nine months between digging, then your regular

48 hours a week in a firehouse on the truck. And then there was memorial after memorial. And some guys, there would be a memorial. They didn't find their remains. And then three weeks later, now you have something. Now there's another. So it was just nonstop. And so here's my wife at home, pregnant, two little ones. and I'm not there. And I left her dry. I didn't want to do that. I didn't realize I did it.

And I remember she said to me one day, it was months and months and months after. And she goes, oh, you know, I was thinking maybe we could, you know, run with the kids to, it was just some little event. I said, I can't. I got to stand up for an honor guard.

I got to step up and do the right thing. They needed an honor guard for so-and-so. They found them. And she looked at me, father was a fireman. She got it. And she said, when are you going to step up for the family? And she walked away crying. And I went, oh, man, I screwed this up. And then, um, don't you think your story, this part of the story is not unique? All of these surviving. Oh, all of my friends. All my friends have experienced.

I mean, that's the point is the survivors that had to carry on in the FDNY and the police for all of them. I mean, for most of the world, 9-11 was a day. For you guys, it's a lifetime. Yeah,

it's, unfortunately, it's dissolved some families. It's broken some apart. You know, we could never take back some of the hurts that we doled out

directly or indirectly by either being absent or being, you know, angry. I had a lot of anger for a long time. Still have some, but, you know, I've tried to just let it go because it's toxic.

It eats away at you. But they were the unwilling victims of this in a sense. You know, my kids experienced a lot, like watching me if I see something on the news and I just get so angry. And my wife will look at me and be like, step out, you know, don't let them be surrounded by this. And then, you know, the double whammy for my family was things started, you know, getting better. and then all of a sudden, on the 10th anniversary, I'm fighting for my life in a cancer ward.

And, you know, I told my kids, I went to the fat farm. I wanted to try to hide what was really going on, and they figured it out. And then, you know, the darkness that came with the disease, and the worst part was having to retire. And my wife just shook me and said, what are you doing? You're still alive. You're in remission. You're with your kids.

And I said, I don't know if I can live without the job. And she went, it's just a job. And I went, Annie, it's not. You don't understand because you didn't suit up all those years with those guys. But I understand it because I had two families. I had my family at home. And then I got my little yellow beetle. And I got to the firehouse.

And I had my other family of ballbreakers. And, you know, I love them both dearly. We'll be right back. When you listen to podcasts about AI, and tech and the future of humanity. The hosts always act like they know what they're talking about, and they are experts at everything. Here, the Nick Dick and Poll Show,

we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Kugler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director. Who do you think he is? I don't know. You meet the president? You think Canada has a president? You think China has a president?

Those law crusette. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket in San Francisco. to it at like it's like the old Polish saying not my monkeys not my circus it was a good one I like that snake

it is an actual Polish saying yeah it is an actual Polish saying yeah it is an actual better version of play stupid games win stupid prizes yes which by the way wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time I actually I thought it was I got that wrong listen to the Nick Dick and Paul show on the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts

or wherever you get your podcasts this is Saigon the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From My Heart Podcasts, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam?

I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. Deerate me. They're pouring packs. all over him. He's holding matches.

I'm on a landmine. For free time. Get out. Freedom, bomb at night. Run! Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon, starting on April 22nd, on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast.

Are You a Charlotte? In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Like when Sarah Jessica Parker shared that she forgot we filmed the pilot episode. You forgot about it? I completely forgot about it.

And when the show was picked up, I panicked. And Cynthia Nixon reveals if she's a Miranda. We both feel confident about our brains. But that's kind of where it ends. Plus, Sex and the City superfan, Megan V. Stelion, doesn't hold back on her opinions of the show. Carrie will literally go sit New York on fire and then come back and type about it at the end of the day. Like half of it wasn't her fault. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, host of the Wicked. Words podcast. Each week I sit down with the true crime writers behind some of the most compelling true crime stories and discuss their years spent investigating and why it still matters. He sees his father coming out of the woods with his hands over his face, and he knows something happened. His father just grabs him and says she's gone. She's gone. These are the cases that leave survivors, families, and the journalists who cover them changed forever. Working in national television, it'll push you to your limits, and you'll end up doing things you never thought you'd do. You know, you look back at it and you're like, I can't believe that really happened.

Join me and step inside the investigation. New episodes drop every Monday on the Exactly Right Network. Listen to Wicked Words on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the story that you and others are. trying to get people to hear and listen to, far more first responders have died after 9-11 than died on the day of, but are still victims of that attack because of the sicknesses that they got. Now, I'm going to butcher this and you straighten me out. I think there are types of cancers that some of you guys got that don't even have names. I don't even have names. I

I think there are types of sicknesses born from this crop, from this heat pile that you guys stood on working day in and day out, a night in and night out, breathing in, that are so unique that nobody's ever seen them before. And then certainly you, like many of your brothers and sisters, were attacked by illnesses that came as a result. of the work from this attack. I don't know all the specifics. I know you do, but I think it's really important for our listeners to understand that 9-11, to this day,

continues to take lives. Yeah, I call it the day that keeps on killing. You know, I've heard people say, you know, oh, you guys are going to blame everything on 9-11, every illness, every ailment, every... No, but when you take a segment of... society, you know, say the 10 to 15,000 people that responded that day, maybe add in, say, another 15, 20,000 between law enforcement and everybody else.

But when you look at the percentages of the people who showed up that day, who are now afflicted or were afflicted and subsequently died from a lot of really, really rare diseases, you know, I don't want to make it about me. but when I got sick in 2011, I came down with a very, very rare leukemia. Usually there's 500 cases all North America diagnosed a year. I was the seventh 9-11 responder in six months to come down with this disease. So my doctor was like, there's no chance this is a coincidence. This is a problem.

And, you know, they gave me two and a half years of chemo jammed into one week. I mean, it was just burning through my body. I was literally praying to die. and I have a strong faith, but I wanted to go. I couldn't take it. Two of the guys out of that seven died during the treatment because it's so vicious. Their bodies just shut down. And then you factor in all of the other cancers, respiratory diseases.

Now we're starting to get a lot of guys with ALS and MS. That's why I've heard that now MS. And it's like, it's like if MS affects, I'm making words up now. If MS affects 0.5% of the population in the United States, first responders, it's like 11%. So there's no way that it's just a coincidence. It's all a direct result. Yeah, I wish I had better hard numbers than facts, but like it's scary to know as many guys that I do that are sick. I mean, I almost think it's about 50% now.

Almost 50% of the guys I serve with a 114 truck. on that day are sick with cancers. Now we're seeing a lot of heart. And, you know, I know I can't blame, I need to lose weight. Guys maybe don't eat right. But it's just so many guys. Like I've never heard of so many guys coming down with needing bypasses or joint replacements. Like they're saying the toxins, you know, wreck you your muscular skeletal system.

It's when I go for a Christmas. reunion every year to see the guys. I'm stunned when you get into conversation and then they talk about guys from the adjoining firehouses and we call battalion, which is the next group of, you know, there's, there's, what is it, 200, there's about 350 individual engine and ladder companies rescue squads in FDNY. So it's huge job, but everyone seems to know everyone. You know, guy from the Bronx, he came on with him. He worked in Brooklyn.

You find out that he's sick. And then eight guys from his firehouse was sick. And, you know, I call my truck the lucky truck because out of all of our guys that have cancer, none of us has died thus far. We've all been blessed to get ahead of it. You know, I mean, some of it was brutal the treatment, but we're here. But sick, yes. Yeah. But then you get these other engine or ladder companies, and they might have had six guys that were sick, but three of them are dead.

So I think to myself, wow, we were a lot luckier than them. One, some numbers to put context on it, as you know well, Nils, they've had the World Trade Center Health Program since where they're testing and monitoring people. And they have 136,000 people in the program because it's not just you guys. There's everybody who worked and lived, you know, in the area. 136,000. Yeah. And 90,000 of them have a diagnosed 9-11 related health conditions. So medical doctors have said 90,000 of those people have a related condition.

Okay, so think about that. About 3,000 died the day. Well, it's over 4,000 now that have actually passed rescue recovery workers, not even the civilians of the area that have since passed. Like John Field, who runs the Feel Good Foundation, it's a wonderful, wonderful guy. He was pivotal in getting us our medical coverage through the Zadroga Bill. John's been kind enough to make a memorial out in Long Island

for the post-9-11 victims who have died. He's running out of space on the wall. wall because it's up over 4,000. It's just clicking, like, number after number after number. And again, you know, we can't attribute every single ailment to being down there. But after a while, it's obvious. It's just obvious, you know. And that was the frustration back in the beginning.

It was such a cover up. They didn't want to know that guys were getting sick and dying. They just recently found, like, 68 boxes of records saying the air is bad. Cover these guys up. masks, this, this, this, and this. All of a sudden. Were you all in masks? No.

Yeah, they gave you a paint mask, a 69 cent hardware store of dust mask, which after 10 minutes was sweated through and you just had to throw it in the pile. You couldn't breathe out of those stupid things. So now they just... We'll stay mostly positive. I know you've told me before...

No, no. I'm going to add to what you're saying. Yeah. I know you've told me before Nills, the New Jersey governor, Christine Gregorororor said the air safe. You guys are fine being down there. Yeah, Christy Todd Whitman. The air's good, go back to work.

open up Wall Street, start making money, it's all good. Nothing to see here. And now they just found 68 boxes of records saying, no, the airship. These guys are all going to get sick. These girls are all going to get sick. I don't hear if people call that positive negative. It's truth. Yeah. Facts are facts. And people need to know the truth. I mean, I don't want to be a Debbie Downer about it. But it gets you sad after a while because you're like, man, they just didn't care. Like, it was just all about commerce. Get Wall Street back open. Get those buildings rebuilt as fast as they could. so they could occupy them. Have you been to the museum?

I have not been in the museum. I don't think I can. I was wondering. I've been to the reflecting pools. I think it's beautiful. I've been to the museum twice. Yeah. It's a powerful place.

Well, I'll be honest with you. The first time I was there, I thought about you a lot. Well, thank you. And when you first enter the way you go down, into the museum, you bypass a slurry wall. Yeah. Well, you say that because you know, I didn't even know what a slurry wall really was about that. And until you're standing at the bottom of that wall looking up, you really can't fathom the enormity of what that building was.

but when you're there, if you have a brain in your head and you think about all those stories above you, and you think about the enormity of that heap that came down, and when you walk through that place, I just think for those of us who didn't experience it on the day in a very personal way, it should be required for every American go down there because there's no way you can pay any attention. while down there and forget. Yeah, it's a crushing reminder. But again, you know, not to be jail. It's beautifully not.

It is beautifully. But then it's like they charge you $36 to get in, right? So now I want to take my family. It's a $200 a day, you know, another $120 to park. I get it's not cheap. Yeah, but I mean, but I don't want to sound like a skinflint. But it just to me, it's like that should be. sacred ground. That should be a national park. That should be you show up, you give a donation.

You know, what about some guy who, for whatever reason, he wants to bring his four or five kids? He's a working guy. I don't expect someone to go pay $200. Like, they can't afford it. That is a good point when, I mean, Ken Langone to pay him a tribute, one of the co-founders of Home Depot, he gave like 300 million NYU so the nursing students can go for free. Is that right? Like a billionaires can figure that out. We can figure out on a I love you. Well, I was just actually as, as you were talking, I was thinking, boy, wouldn't that be an interesting thing

as to raise money so you can get as many people down there. It's a phenomenal place. When you see the new, what is the new building? One trade set. What was it? Oh, one world trade, which, yeah, the Freedom Tower. The new building. When you see that thing sitting the Freedom Tower.

Yeah. Yeah, I haven't gone up inside that yet, too. I haven't either. I do with my family. It's, I guess, something I probably should do. Do you look at it pridefully? I do, but I think we should have built it exactly the way it was. That would have been a middle finger.

I get that. You know, because growing up, you know, growing up as a New York City kid and coming across the harbor and the ferry and you saw these two towers, I mean, every old New York movie panned across that and you saw it. It's just so weird looking at a movie today. day. Yeah, it's really strange. But I get, I get, they wanted to move on, but I don't know.

I think they should have built it exactly the same. It is cool that it's 1776 feet. Yeah, that is a nice tribute. But yeah, I still would have been, nope, screw you. We're putting it exactly the way it stood, you know. You survived your cancer and you practiced something that every member of an army and normal folks can practice, which is gratitude. but who was the unlikely person that you expressed gratitude toward him?

Unlily person. You know who it is, Nils. You? No. Definitely not you. The guy whose name you kept noticing supporting medical places. Oh, oh, I'm sorry. I'm drawing a blank.

Yeah, yeah. See, in my old age, I'm afflicted with multiple Ds. I have... Yes. ADHD, PTSD, recently ED, and now stupidity. Poor Annie. Yeah. That is my wife, the saint, and my children, the saint's brother.

As my wife would say, there's a whole lot going on up here. It just doesn't make sense, but she's right. Yeah, no, I have... Not going on everywhere, though. Yeah, I'm all over the place, man. I just... Yeah, Alex had a refresh by memory. You know, unfortunately, too, part of chemo is messes up your memory a bit and does a lot to your joints and your body and your mind.

Just, but whatever. So, yeah, I, so way back when I was first sick, which feels like a million years ago, there was a man known, very well known in New York City, David Koch, a very, very successful businessman. and he was a big philanthropist in New York City, but he was constantly being beaten up by the press because of his conservative values and beliefs and what have you. And, you know, I just, I saw what he was doing for the city. And he, you know, you drive around to York

and there's so many buildings that he dedicated. You know, you go to the Metropolitan Opera. I mean, Lincoln Center, you know, hospitals, wings, cancer wings. And the doctors that have, helped get me into a mission were trained at Sloan Kettering Hospital, which is a world-renowned cancer facility. And I was a critical care patient. I ended up in Methodist, Brooklyn, and never left. But the doctors from there had a bridge with Sloan. So I have to give them credit. They saved my

life. So in one of the days where I was watching Mr. Coke get just beaten up in the press, I realized, I said, wow, he dedicated the research building at Sloan, where they do all of this cancer research. And my cancer, if I had gotten it 15 years prior, there was no treatment. I would have been dead. I got diagnosed very late in the process, so I almost died. But the fact that they had the treatment available saved me. But, no, I just looked it up. He gave $150 million, which is the largest single gift in the institution's history and a total of $225 million to Sloan Kettering.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he was massive. And literally, like, the doctors I talked to said that, you know, the research and the knowledge that they gained from Sloan had a lot to do with Mr. Koch's kindness. So I just reached out and I wrote a handwritten letter. I'm still probably one of the three remaining Americans who writes letters, right? I like pencils and rotary dial phones and just, you know, and my 70s mustache. No, but I wrote a letter. I just said, let me find where this guy is, and I sent it out to Coke Industries,

and they probably thought it was some crazy whack job, whatever. So I just said, my name's Nils. Just a regular guy. I'm a New York fireman. Thanks to you, I'm still alive to watch my family, watch my beautiful children grow up. just want to say thanks for your kindness and appreciate it. And about, I don't know, a couple months later, I get this call from his secretary,

and I thought it was like a telemarketer, you know. So she's like, are you available for a phone call from Mr. David Koch? And I'm like, Mr. Coke wants to speak to me. I go, he's like a pretty important kind of guy. She goes, yeah, well, he got your letter. I said, oh, wow, really? you know um okay so he got on the phone and he was just like talking to my dad he was like this sweet older guy and he said i really appreciate you know saying thanks you know a lot of people in this country

don't do that anymore and i said oh no sir i've been raised with gratitude and uh just wanted to make sure you knew that there's other people out there appreciate what you're doing so a couple months later he invited me to the dedication of a new wing that he had at sloan and i got to meet him and he was just a nice, sweet man, you know, and talk to me like my dad. And, you know, the cruel irony with that is he, a couple years later, he subsequently passed a cancer. But I just made it my duty to make sure that that guy knew someone wanted to say thanks. And my wife and I have raised our kids that way. You know, I was talking earlier about a gratitude crisis, right?

We've become this nation of self-embibed, narcissistic, whatever, as a whole pool of dysfunction going on. But gratitude is so simple. It's just a smile, a thank you, and an acknowledgement. It takes no time. It costs you nothing. But it's just a dying art. And I just wish people would teach their kids more about it, you know.

And the parenting crisis that I have. mentioned earlier. You know, once we decide to bring these little souls to earth, we have a responsibility. We're locked in now. You, you know, you have a baby with that lady. We'll marry that lady and raise that child. And it's not easy. You know, I love definitions of tough guys in America. I have, you know, tats, hand tats now on the palms, the head, the neck, to this or that. My definition of a tough guy is a loving, caring father who loves his wife, loves his children, protects them, provides for them, gives them guidance, properly prepares them for the launch into this world. And the minute you find out you're having that little baby, life is on hold for a good 20 years.

And I just feel like a lot of people aren't willing to put it on hold. And they put themselves first and the children suffer. Okay, let me just show you this. I don't know if you've seen this, Nils, but I just saw this last week. Myself randomly. You read that? So this is on David Koch's website. I read out loud.

Oh, he's on Coke's website. On David, David, Cokes. I just ran on this last week, randomly. Am I getting a residual from this one? No, no. He was touched by all those who reached out to thank him for his part in saving their lives. One such letter that was particularly meaning to. meaningful to him was from Nils Jorgensen,

firefighter who contracted Harry Selle leukemia from the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center. He told David that the world should know all the good he has done, which is very true. It was his legacy of helping others that mattered most to David. During his interview with Barbara Walters, the accomplished

businessman, oh, okay, that's the rest. Yeah, well, I'm flattered that they would put that there. That's kind of cool. That you're on his about page. Wow, man. Wow. Yeah. I can talk to my agent about that one and I know. Yeah, I was supposed to say.

No, but it, it, it, but it's just, see, to see a guy of his caliber, like, be able to just relate to, like, an every man like myself. I, I was impressed, you know, I was picturing some big swaggering dude, like, you know, no time for anybody else. And, you know, him and his wife, they were, they were really lovely. And, you know, I actually sat at the luncheon, and it was hysterical because the guy, Larry Cudlow, the economist, who's on Fox, he was sitting there. He was sitting there and we were chatting it up about, you know, politics and economics and stuff.

And I got such a kick out of him because I used to watch them all the time on Fox. And I'm like, wow, hang out with all right. Yeah, yeah. We'll be right back. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything. Here, the Nick Dick and Poll Show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Coogler did that I think was so unique He's the writer-director

Who do you think he is? I don't know You meet the president? You think Canada has a president You think China has a president The La Crosette God I love that thing I use it all the time

I wrap it in a blanket And sing to it at night It's like the old Polish saying Not my monkeys, not my circus It was a good one I like that snake It's an actual Polish saying It is an actual poll.

Better version of Play Stupid Games, win stupid prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift, who said that for the first time. I actually thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Paul show

on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country,

From My Heart Podcast, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire.

Do you rate me? They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a land. Free die! Let's get out. Freedom for Vietnam! Run!

starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. There's a fire coming to this country and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon, starting on April 22nd, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte? In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City.

Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Like when Sarah Jessica Parker shared that she forgot we filmed the pilot episode. You forgot about it? I completely forgot about it. And when the show was picked up, I panicked.

And Cynthia Nixon reveals if she's a Miranda. We both feel confident about our brains. But that's kind of where it ends. Plus, sex in the city super fan. Megan B. Stelion doesn't hold back on her opinions of the show. Carrie will literally go set New York on fire and then come back and type about it at the end of the day. Like half of it wasn't her fault. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, host of the Wicked Words podcast. Each week I sit down with the true crime writers behind some of the most compelling true crime stories and discuss their years spent investigating and why it still matters. He sees his father coming out of the woods with his hands over his face, and he knows something happened. His father just grabs him and says she's gone. She's gone. These are the cases that leave survivors, families, and the journalists who cover them changed forever.

Working in national television, it'll push you to your limits, and you'll end up doing things you never thought you'd do. you know, you look back at it and you're like, I can't believe that really happened. Join me and step inside the investigation. New episodes drop every Monday on the exactly right network. Listen to Wicked Words on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Tell me, I want our listeners, how do people find 20 for 20, Alex? You could just search 20 for 20 on Apple, Spotify.

Okay. You'll see it there. was 20 for 20 therapeutic for you tell us about 20 for 20 hopefully some of our listeners will check it out yeah but tell us what 20 for 20 is and what it meant for you sure 20 for 20 was a informative podcast you know not-for-profit it was more or less just to make public you had some kind of dip shit producing it right well we we like to call him ASOP because he's a big storyteller but uh i don't want to get sued because he comes from that generation of hurt feelings and you get canceled and people protesting at your front door.

Yes. Actually, this is a good time to bring up your text to me before you continue. So Nils wrote me this in the last year. He said, hello, Aesop. Just wanted to let you know that my dad passed away. Even though you're a raging douchebag, he destroyed meeting you of all this well. Yeah. He texts you about losing their dad's saying your raging douchebag in the same text.

That's just how you break balls. Yeah, my dad was a great guy. He had a great sense of humor, and he got to meet Alex back in the height of doing 20 for 20. And there was a beautiful art rendition of, I forget the gentleman's name and God forgive me for it. But he did this beautiful sidewalk mural of the Trade Center, and it was in the shadow of the new building for the 10th anniversary. And I had this really beautiful picture of my dad. and myself and my son and my wife and, you know, staying in front of that mural.

And, yeah, my dad, my dad liked Alex. My dad was one of those lovable guys. He didn't say a lot. He was like an old New York soul. But when he said something, it was usually profound. And he, you know, he died last February. And I got to be with him through the end process. I, you know, stayed with him.

And he was, you know, I have two tribute tattoos, one year, one here. This one's for my father. This one's for John. And my father's is the badge he carried, I ended up carrying when he retired. I switched my number. And it says, my example, my hero, my father, FDMI, with that badge. My father was a unique guy. He grew up really poor.

His father was from Denmark, Grandpa Nils. you know, they grew up really humble, really lean. And my dad cherished the fire department because it was security, but it was also his chance to help people and make the world a better place. So I guess when I was about five years old and watching him, and as I used to call him, the giants with mustaches, all these guys in the firehouse, I'm like, that's what I want to be. That's what I want to do.

And, you know, he was my best friend. He was my advisor. He was just my conscience. You know, if I was screwing up in life, I'd stop myself and I go, well, what would my dad be doing right now? And I just go, well, definitely not this. Let me switch gears and do what he would do. And I know how serious you take being a father, Bill. And to me, it's the most important job that a man can have.

You know, I've had a lot of jobs, not because I got fired, but just I'd take what work was there, you know. but the most important job I've ever had was being a father most rewarding but veering back hence me before actually you give around your dad you kind of skipped over it earlier of his cancer journey and then the strength that gave you you also skipped over yeah well just so real fast because I forgot to answer bill on it so 20 for 20 was a project we were we were reaching out to 20 different people who were individually affected by 9-11 or their experience of it. And it was powerful. It was an eclectic mix of folks, you know, Ray Pfeiffer, who was a very renowned fireman who ended up dying of cancer some years back, who was our biggest rallyer in Washington to get us our coverage.

And poor Ray, God rest his soul, would go in his wheelchair. He had terminal cancer for years, and he'd go and he'd fight and fight. And I got the honor of interviewing his wife. And what a sweet woman. But to hear her pain and to experience what she went through. And then these other people, their experiences was just so powerful. And I was so flattered by their honesty. They opened up and they told you their story.

They trusted you. And I think that being in any type of podcast or interviewing, if you can gain people's trust, it's huge. And it was really one of the greatest things I got a chance to do because we got a lot of knowledge out there. We got a lot of exposure explaining to people that guys are sick, girls are sick. Please don't forget them. Tunnel to towers, please be generous because they do so much good. for our responders, military, and, you know. Was it therapeutic for you a little bit?

Oh, yeah, it was huge. I miss it. I really wish I could do it again because it was part of therapy. You know, I speak to someone about it because I have, you know, anger issues. I was told it was nothing wrong with me. I was misdiagnosed. I was blown off by a doctor that ended up almost killing me. A lot of anger came with that.

I'm past it now. but I've learned how to manage the hurts and the pain. And one line that I constantly go back to, I listen to a lot of music in the cancer hospital. I was there for a month just staring straight up and just had the air plugs in. There's a song by the band The Alarm called Rain in the Summertime. And the basic gist of the song is about getting back to life,

the basic, simple, important things in life. But one of the lines that I just carry with me all the time is, as if I run fast enough, I can leave all the pain and sadness behind. You can't. I used to be able to run fast, not anymore. What I realize with pain and trauma and anger and hurt is you have to learn how to manage it. It will never go away. It's impossible because it's ingrained in our brain and our soul.

But if you can keep pace with it and you run aside it, and you try to see what it's going to do next and stay ahead of it, you will manage it properly where it won't destroy your life. I've seen friends of mine, people who I love, that have ruined their lives because they tried to dull the pain, they tried to run faster than it, and it overtook them. So if you can just address it, know it's going to stay aside you or your whole life

and manage it, you will beat it. But if you try to fight it head on and nope, it's going to take you. Your father, you said not only everything he taught you growing up and everything, but Alex alluded to it that his bout with cancer taught you a lot. Oh, man, Bill, when you want to talk about a stoic, just I don't know where he got it from, But my dad, my dad was about 38 years old that was in 1978. He was sent home to die of end stage non-Hodgkins lymphoma. And they just said, look, there's really not much more we can do.

But if you're willing to be a test pilot for this new trial study drug, we could possibly give you a chance. And I just remember my father in his heavy broken accent, he goes, I ain't no pilot. I'm a fireman. What do you mean? So they're like, no, no, you got. So they're like, no, you got. him with this new chemo. Every two weeks for four and a half years, he was put in an office after the cancer, so he

was taken off the truck. So back then, they would let you stay when you were sick. Now, it's more like, you know, it's expensive, and they could hire two guys, new guys, whatever. So every other Thursday, he would go leave at 4.30 in the morning to take a train to the ferry, to the subway, the fire headquarters, and then the reverse commute back. And on alternate Thursdays, he would go in, and at noon, he would leave at lunch and go to the infusion center

and get his treatment. And his chief would always say, just take the day. Don't worry, don't come in on Thursday. He says, nope, chief, you're paying me? It's my job. I'm responsible. And he'd go. Come home from the cancer infusion center and within a couple hours,

he'd be violently, violently ill throwing up just couldn't even drink water and I was so sad to see him because it would just brutalize him. He wouldn't say a word and I would wipe his mouth, try to keep the vomit off of him and once in a while maybe he could take an ice cube

and he would drift off into these like just, I guess he would just pass out with fatigue and I'd sit and I'd hold his hand or I would go down by the end of the bed and I hold his foot. And I'd pray and I say, God, I just lost my grandpa Nils and he subsequently passed away the year after my dad was sick. So my little 10-year-old world was just completely falling apart.

And I just say, God, please, I lost Grandpa Nils. He's my best friend. Don't let me lose my dad. And I would just stay there for sometimes. I guess it was hours. I'd go into like this Zen. just prayer and contemplation, meditation. And I just listened to him, breathe,

and I would try to pray to cancer away. And after four and a half years, he beat it. He was in full remission. And towards his last days, we had a lot of conversations. And, you know, I said, how you doing? And he said, I'm dying. And I said, I'm so sorry, Dad, you know, I just wish, I wish I could do something.

And I remember back in my cancer fight, I said, how did you do this? How did you get through this? He goes, I don't know, kid. How are you getting through it? You just do it. And at the very end, he said, look, he goes, I've had a great life. He says, I got 47 years of remission that I didn't expect. Maybe I didn't deserve, but he goes, I would be really selfish to ask God for more time.

So they basically, he was, everything was fantastic. So they gave him the comfort drugs. And they said, look, once we give him this, he's going to fade into unconsciousness. So he asked if everybody from the family could come see him. And we did the Irish shiver. We sat around the bed and we talked and we told stories. And, you know, he could barely talk at the time. And he just said, I love you all.

I'll see you again. And it was a freezing cold night and I stayed with him. and I went out to my old church where I grew up where I used to go pray for him when I was little and I knelt down by the statue of St. Thomas, St. Thomas St. Joseph's Church and it was freezing cold and I was in a pile of snow and I just said, God, don't let him last, don't let him suffer. He's too good of a guy.

And that next morning the nurse goes, look, he's probably going to be lingering around for 48 hours or just, you know, why don't you go get some rest, clean up, you know, and just come back in a few hours. I'm like, all right, so I drove 45 minutes down to where I live. All of a sudden, I got the call. I literally took a quick shower, and I was just laying down, and my wife slaps me.

She says, you got to go now, you got to go now. So I got in a car, did the old held a badge out the window. And I, you know, I did as fast as I could get up there. And the nurse said to me, she said, he's fading. quicker than we thought. And I held his hand and I kissed him. I told him I love him. My phone rang. It was my brother-in-law asking me if I needed anything. I stepped out for a second and a nurse goes, come back. And she goes, I realized it was happening so much quicker. I would have never taken that phone call. And I was it. I said, I love you. Thank you. Thank you for

teaching me everything. And he just peacefully left. And, you know, I just, sometimes in this world, I feel like there's just too many influencers, right? Everybody's an influencer. They're trying to sell your big lips, big butts, washboard abs, muscles, this, tattoos. They just want to sell your shit, right? Everybody's an influencer. How many inspirers are there? We need some more inspire us.

That father of mine, he inspired me, man. My third grade and fifth grade teacher that I still keep in touch with, Mr. Howard Zinn from PS3, Staten Island, New York, inspired me to learn everything I could. That's why it's so confusing up here. Father Michael Judge, Father Michael, I was his first case as our chaplain. I fractured my back in a fire truck wreck in 1993. Who really is his first case? I found that out after.

He told me. Because he's a legend. So I couldn't believe this, and I take this as a high honor. Our father, Michael George, was our Franciscan friar, Catholic chaplain, who died literally blessing the men at 9-11. Tim Brown saw him. He was, I mean, it was, you see him on the video. He's just, he's just, he's just, praying him like they're carrying the crucified Christ. They carried him out.

He had a heart attack inside the building. Some debris came down. There was stories that he was crushed and killed by the debris. What had actually happened was some of the stuff reined down. He suffered a heart attack. They carry him out. out in an iconic photo and he passed away and they brought him up the street, I believe, was St. Paul's Piscopal Church. I'm going to get it wrong. And they laid him out, you know,

in respect at the altar and covered him up and left a note. This is Father Michael, Judge, FDMI. So he was considered the victim number one of that day by the medical examiner. But Father Mike at 1993, he had been a priest quite a long time. And so I couldn't move, couldn't move my arms and my legs. They raced me up to Bellevue Hospital. And they put me in a CAT scan tube. And then Father Michael went to meet my parents. My father was still on a job at the time.

My late mother-in-law and father-in-law, father-in-law, father-in-law had been on a job and my wife and my brother-in-law. And as I'm going into the tube, it was Sunday evening. And I said, Father, I miss church today. I try to get to church as much as I. I can. I should do a better job of it. But I have a very strong faith. So I said, Father, I miss church. I said, maybe you can get me to the chapel. And I just want to say a few quick prayers. He goes, look, he goes, I said, well, maybe tomorrow at least, you know, he goes, listen,

if you try to tell God what you're going to do tomorrow, he's going to laugh at you, let's get through tonight. He put his hands on me and he prayed. And he said, he looked at me and smiled. And he was just this beautiful-looking older Irish guy, white hair. He looked like he was just out of central casting, you know, and he said, God's got this, you're going to be okay. And I'm crying. I'm like, I'm 25 years old. I can't move.

I got newly married a couple of years. And, you know, and after four days, they said to me, look, there was swelling on your spinal column, but we can't find anything else. You're okay. They sent me home. and I was back on a fire truck within a couple weeks. Well, six years later, I was caught in a collapse,

and I got banged up pretty good. And when I went in for x-rays and whatnot, the doctor looked at me, and he goes, what's this? And you could see a white line across my cervical seven. And I said, he goes, were you injured in the last 10 years? I said, yeah, bad fire truck wreck, whatever. He goes, how are you even still on his job?

Because you fractured your vertebrae. I said, I don't know how to explain this, Doc. and he was Irish Catholic guy. He says, you know Father Mike? Yeah, yeah. I said he put his hands on me. Next thing I know I'm walking out at the hospital. He goes, okay.

He cut up through the film away. He goes, job don't need to know about this because he shouldn't be a, you shouldn't still be here. So I don't know. You want to call it a miracle? I'm not sure, Bill. But that was my father, Mike. He was another inspiration.

He just, one of those people. That guy was an inspiration. Oh, he's a saint. He's up for a saint. He's up for a saint. They're trying to make him a saint. He was really a love. He was almost like a mini-celeb in the city

because he had his own chief's car and the siren, he had his helmet. He was great. He was great. He'd show up to every big calamity in the city. We'll be right back. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity,

the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything. Here, the Nick Dick and Poll show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Cougler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director. Who do you think he is? I don't know.

You mean, like, the president? You think Canada has a president? You think China has a president? Those law a rouset. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at night. It's like the old Polish saying,

not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep. It was a good one. I like that saying. It is an actual Polish saying. It is an actual poland. Better version of Play Stupid Games, win stupid prizes.

Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick,

Dick, and Paul show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us.

The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From IHeart Podcast, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce

Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. Do you rate me? They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a landmine. For Free time. Let's get out. Freedom from Vietnam. Run! Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict.

Sting, here's madness. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon, starting on April 22nd, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte? In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Like when Sarah Jessica Parker shared that she forgot we filmed the pilot episode.

You forgot about it? I completely forgot about it. And when the show was picked up, I panicked. And Cynthia Nixon reveals if she's a Miranda. We both feel confident about our brains. But that's kind of where it ends. Plus, sex-in-the-city super fan, Megan V. Stelion, doesn't hold back on her opinions of the show. Carrie will literally go sit New York on fire and then come back and type about it at the end of the day.

Like half of it wasn't her fault. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, host of the Wicked Words podcast. Each week I sit down with the true crime writers behind some of the most compelling true crime stories. and discuss their years spent investigating and why it still matters. He sees his father coming out of the woods with his hands over his face, and he knows something happened. His father just grabs him and says, she's gone, she's gone.

These are the cases that leave survivors, families, and the journalists who cover them changed forever. Working in national television, it'll push you to your limits, and you'll end up doing things you never thought you'd do. You know, you look back at it and you're like, I can't believe that really happened. Join me and step inside the investigation. New episodes drop every Monday on the Exactly Right Network. Listen to Wicked Words on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

We got a wrap soon. And I want to end with this. 343 FDNY Firefighters died on 9-11, 4994 to 9. have died in the aftermath from ground zero related illnesses. And including other first responders and civilians who lived and worked in the area and got sick from it, more people died from 9-11 relatedness in the aftermath of the attack than 2,977 people who died on the day of the tact. Not enough people know that. Not enough people, none of kids are aware.

none of teaching is going on of it. And 9-11, never forget. That's kind of a mission of yours. And others. Yeah. What can the army of normal folks do to help you serve that mission as important as it is

to not only remember your fallen brothers and sisters, to not only remember the sick, that still exists today, you yourself, but also the importance of that day in terms of our preparedness and readiness as a country, what can the Army and normal folks do to serve that mission? Well, the fact that they're already normal sets them as outsiders, right? I mean, I'm actually still in awe that you brought me here

because I don't think I'm so normal. You know, no, all kidding aside, gratitude is so important. You know, you see these old veterans especially, and they proudly wear their hat, World War II veteran, Korean War veteran, Vietnam veteran. I'm old enough to say I remember seeing World War I veterans as a kid, right? Go up and thank them. If you walk up to them and you put out your hand and you say, thank you for your service, you'll see an immediate smile.

And that makes them feel that they didn't waste their time. And I wish it happened more. I try, my wife, we'll be out on the mall or somewhere in the airport. I'm walking up to every guy with a hatchet. What are you doing? I just want to thank them. And, you know, so many of them are just, they'll start a little conversation. And just wish there was more of that if you see a responder,

It's a dangerous world out there. I don't care where it's police, fire, EMS, nurses, you know, emergency room personnel. We're in dangerous times, and they have thankless jobs, a lot of stress. You know, they make one mistake, especially law enforcement, and their career and possibly their life is over.

Go up and thank them. If you see them in the coffee shop or you see them out at the supermarket, wherever it is, just walk up and say, hey, thanks for being out here today. We appreciate you. They'll be taken back a little bit, because it doesn't happen enough,

but it means the world to them. And I think, like I said, we're just at this continental divide now. Like, you know, they're not an enemy, anyone in that response world, military world. They're literally willing to give up every one of their tomorrow so you can finish your today.

That's pretty huge. I mean, you know, The average cop in the United States makes $56,000, I think. You know, firefighter are about the same paramedics less. I mean, that's, you could make more than that driving a tractor trailer now, right? Are you driving for, oh, I don't want to say Amazon or Amazon, whatever. It's crazy. But yet these people still sign up in droves for these jobs because it's that warrior class.

They just have this pressing need to help people. And that's what I miss about my job. You know, I mean, I'd go back for free. I'd go back on that truck for nothing right now if they would let me. I really, really liked helping people. But it really just meant the world when some random person would come up and say, hey, thank you. Thanks for being here today.

Thank you. It's my honor. I would gladly do it for you. You have done some things for free since retiring, right? you've made some natural disasters? Yeah, I responded down a couple of the storms, you know, for storm relief. I tried to do some veterans outreach. I'm now doing some volunteer work with Alzheimer and dementia people.

Like early onset, it's at a memory care center. We do activities with them, you know, little exercise and then mind games, bingo. and it just keeps them, you know, keeps them stimulated mentally and physically. And it's really humbling because they're all such nice folks that all have a story, all had a life. Interesting, interesting people. And now they're in a bad spot. So being able to help them, it definitely replaces a little bit of that for me.

But it could be sad sometimes because you realize, wow, this could be any. one of us, you know, coming up into our 60s and 70s. That's why we need to give now. So there's somebody to give to us later. Oh, I do believe that, Bill. I'm a firm believer in paying it forward, paying it back. You know, I have a strong faith. I try to be just, I try to thank God for every minute.

You know, I laid in that bed convinced I wasn't coming out of it back with cancer. And I looked up at my three kids and I said, God, please, please. At first I wanted to die, I was in such pain. but then I flipped it around and said, no, I got to be here for these kids. And now that they're in their 20s and they have their careers and they don't need me around anymore, now I beg God, hey, can I stick around to see their kids? Right? I'm getting a little selfish.

But, you know, if he gives it to me great, but if he took it away tomorrow, I'd say thank you because I've had a great run. Real quick, what are your kids doing? I'm just curious. So my oldest, the fiery redhead that she is, like a grandma's a critical. care nurse, you know, emergency room. Now she does critical care. She'll bring you if you're in a real bad shape to a better facility, and she keeps you going in the ambulance.

And then once they drop the patient off, they get put into the 911 system. So she's, you know, then she's a street paramedic. She goes from nurse to street paramedic. Where? Oh, I'm sorry. In New Jersey, she's, she's, my Emily, she's fiery. My son Paul, he's, grandpa's namesake. He's a pilot. Is he really?

He's flying. Yeah, he didn't want to, he was going to, he would have been third generation, but he said, Dad, I love flying. I'm like, dude, I can't wait for you to get to the airline, so I want to get some of those free flight passes. Yeah, no kid. No, he's such a great kid. He works so hard to get to where he is. And then my little bookworm, Catherine, my little 9-11 miracle, because I might not have ever seen her.

She is my English literature fanatic who is now in the publishing world. and just they just bring me joy to three of living up north. They're all up north, yeah, they're all up north. And, you know, they're all just hardworking kids. They bring me joy, Bill, because they bring some goodness to this world. You know, they're just ambitious and they want to do good, you know, and they're just fun to be around, great personalities. You know, I think a lot of the young people have lost their sense of humor,

but not them. They get it, man. They got some good senses of humor. They have a difference of humor that meatheads like you and me. They said me so straight, though. Yeah, well, I don't know. I mean, my kids think if you call somebody a douchebag, it's really awful and politically incorrect. But, you know, I mean it in the most sincere and loving way possible.

Oh, absolutely. That's why I call it stuff. Yeah, Alex is a douchebag, but I mean it nicely. And you're going to get hate mail on this, Bill, and I'm sorry. Sorry for the hate mail. But back when we were kids, if you were a fuck, Sorry, can I say that? Yeah.

They told you a loser. If you stayed home all day, smoking weed in your mom's basement, eating hot pockets, playing video games, you were a fucking loser. Yeah, right. Now, if you say that, people show up in front of your house with signs, picks forks, staggers. I'm sorry, you're a loser. You fail to launch.

Right? Be a grown-ass man. Get a job. Marry a woman, raise your kids, and stop fishing. The only problem I have with what you said is, I like hot pockets. I do too, Bill. Things are good.

And another thing, what's with the head and neck and now on the palm tattoos? I get the tats on the arm. I get the, up the head, behind the head. I don't know. What the fuck is that? I don't know. But if you dye your hair purple and I know that you have purple hair, don't be offended. You dyed your hair purple.

If I call it out, what do you think I'm not supposed to see that you have purple hair? I, Bill, I just don't get it. I mean, when I swore, you. into the army or police or fire department. You couldn't have a tattoo pass here. They would look at you, go turn around, leave. Now, forget about it. I saw a dude the other day with a bone in his earlobe.

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, if you got a bone in your lobe and I say, hey, dude, you got a bone in your lobe, well, you put it there. Why are you mad at me for pointing it out? Absolutely. I don't know. I want to put a crowbar on the side of his head and you're going to get looked at me.

It looks a little weird, you know. That's the way it is. Before you wrap, on a note of seriousness, and I didn't run this by you. you, but I'm guessing you're willing to do what you did with Aubrey. If there's other people around the country, would there be interested in paying for him to come? No, you don't have to pay. Well, you don't need to pay for your travel.

My wife loves when I hit the road and just leave her along because I drive her crazy. No, I don't need anything. Will you share either your cell or your email, whatever you're comfortable with, no, so people can touch base? Or worst case, I could be the conduit. Share your email if people want to reach out to you. Just reach out to Alex here and because I'm so. technologically deficient.

Fine. You'll get my family at Denmark. If you want to hear from Nils, reach out to Alex. Let me just throw this out there. Let me just throw this out there. If you are a teacher, you are a professor,

you instruct some group of people 27 years and younger, and you want people to hear a firsthand account of what 9-11 was and what it teaches us. and the importance of those historical lessons, there's no better arbiter of that information than Nils.

And he is the guy that is, listen, you hear all of this stuff, and he is a big old meat-headed guy, but I've found him to be one of the kindest, gentlest, most loving human beings on the face of the planet. And if you reach out to him, he'll come tell the story. I will absolutely show up on my own expense. You don't have to pay for gas. You don't have people.

I ran up. I actually ran up Bill's credit card last time on Bill Street. That a boy. I'm glad. Irish coffee. It's not mine. It's Alex. Oh, God.

We had, it was a good time. You won't swear around your kids. No, no. That's only for the podcast. That's right. No, I won't curse in front of the sixth to fourth graders. But all kidding aside, I will show up. I don't care where it is in a country.

I don't need to be compensated for anything. But what I want to make just, just really right up front is sometimes my wife said, you don't want to sound like you were the only guy at 9-11 or the only guy who got sick from 9-11. And I agree with her 100% because I wasn't. I wasn't after the fact. I got there a couple hours in.

I'm still alive. But what I will attest to being is I will never stop talking about the great, great people that I had the honor of working with, that I have the honor of still knowing that gave everything for you, the public, and still will. So I will never stop talking about that. I mean, it just brings me joy to say I worked with some of the greatest people that God put on this earth. That's the power of never forget. Amen.

And everybody listening to me, there's a man who lived it, knows them, paid for it, paid with it, will pay tribute to it, and has factual, actual information so that we don't ever forget, freely willing to come and tell anybody who listen about all that he knows about that day, all that he is involved in, and all the work after. So all you got to do is reach out to Alex and take him up on it, and Nils will come see you. And Niels, I'm hoping people will take you up on it because it is an army of normal folks that serves this country. And you and your brothers in New York that day were, you know,

just part of what makes our country and the people in it very, very special. And it has been really an honor five years ago to get to know you and to continue to know you. And I just have this sneaky suspicion that because of this doucheback over here, our paths will cross again. I hope so, Bill. We can leave Aesop at home that day. but no, I just want to say thank you.

It is my honor. You guys have me out here. And, you know, we have such a great country. We have blemishes. We have cracks. I lived overseas for a little while. I lived in Ireland. I have, you know, a lot of family there,

and they're going to hate me for saying it, but it's not America. This is the land of opportunity. You know, my dad, God rest, him used to always say, the beautiful thing about America is you could be anything you want to. The only person that can stop you is you. And I just, I love that because I watch that in real time with my children. These little kids running around in diapers, and now they're adults that just bring goodness to this world.

And it's just so many opportunities. Just you're a young kid, if things aren't going right for you, you could join the military. They'll send you to college for free. They'll give you a lifelong skill, and you will meet the greatest people you could ever meet. meet in your life. So never give up. Just keep faith. It's all about faith, hope, and love. And God family country, maybe if we got back to that, maybe if we started going back to simplicity, the basics that we would make progress. Because with all the technology we have, we're going backwards. It's kind of strange. And Army and all folks subscribing to those tenants can fix what

else is. Amen, Bill. Amen. Thank you for the opportunity. And God bless you and all your listeners. God bless you, Nils. Thanks for being in Memphis and seeing us again, and I'm sure our paths are going to cross again. Amen, sir. Looking forward to it. Thank you. And thank you for joining us this week. If Nils has inspired you in general, or better yet, to take action by finding your calling, your brotherhood, your sisterhood, and committing to them like never before. Becoming a firefighter or something else entirely, please let me know. I'd love to hear you. hear about it. You can write me anytime at Bill at normalfolks. Us. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends, share it on social, subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it. Join the Army at normalfolks.com. Any and all of these things that will help us grow,

an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. Until next time, do it you can. Now everybody over here? Oh, it's one of my other favorite places, the Twilight Gazebo. Gardens, Twilight Gazebo. What's next? Dead Man's Grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this? From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blackish, comes Big Age, an audible original about finding your way in life's next chapter. This audio comedy series follows a retired couple's reluctant relocation to Sunset Gardens,

a Floridian senior community that is anything but relaxing. starring comedy legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer, and Nisi Nashvettes. Through its blend of outrageous comedy, Key Party Anyone, and Touching Revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com slash big age series

to start listening today. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte? In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen.

Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. From IHeart Podcast, Saigon. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? One city, a divided, country and the war that tore America apart.

This is for Vietnam. They're pouring Patrick. Freedom for Vietnam! There's a fire coming to this country and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon, starting on April 22nd, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On paper, the three hosts of the Nick Dick & Poll show are geniuses. We can explain how AI works, data centers, but there are certain things that we don't necessarily

understand. Better version of Play Stupid Games, win stupid prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was. I got that wrong. But hey, no one's perfect. We're pretty close, though. Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Paul show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.