An Army of Normal Folks - Adrianne Hillman: My Sneaky Way To Teach People To Love Better (Pt 1)

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Adrianne's home of Tulare County has the highest rate of chronically unsheltered homelessness in America, with over 2,500 people experiencing homelessness in a county of 484,000. Despite not wanting to take action, Adrianne felt convicted that she must and her nonprofit Salt + Light built The Neighborhood Village, a brand-new community of 50 housing units with onsite whole-person care. Community changes everything and teaches all of us to love each other better. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

People are literally starving on the streets of Tulare and Vyselia. We started feeding people on the streets, and it was a game changer. It taught us what we needed to know about people experiencing homelessness. But in the back of your mind. But meanwhile, I've got the wheels turn around this village. You want to build a village. Right. And I needed a movement because I needed support, right, in a lot of ways.

Money, volunteers, all those things. You're talking about a village. Those are houses and development. Yes. This is not cheap. No. It wasn't cheap. say this a lot, and I still think it's true, that, yes, our work is around, you know, homelessness,

but I always say this is just my sneaky little way to teach people to love each other better. Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm an entrepreneur. And I've been a football coach in inner city Memphis. And that last part, somehow, it led to an Oscar for the film about our team. That movie's called undefeated. I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using big words that really nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox, but rather by an army of normal folks, that's us, just you and me deciding, hey, you know what, maybe I can help. That's what Adrienne Hillman, the voice you just heard, has done. Adrianne is the founder

of salt and light, which lives in community with people experiencing homelessness, both figuratively and literally. They built what's called the Neighborhood Village with 50 homes for people experiencing homelessness and three homes for missional residents. Because community, well, as she teaches us, community changes everything. I cannot wait for you to meet Adrienne, right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling.

In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Marcial Massiel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ. My name is Elena Sada. and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out.

This season on Sacred Scandal hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determine survivor as Elena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the lights.

Listen to Sacred Scandal, the mini-secrets of Marcial Masiel as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get her podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988

to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did,

why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family, and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him. So he would have this little practice, to the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From revisionist history, this is the Alabama, Murders. Listen to Revision's History, The Alabama Murders on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Adrian. Adrian. Adrian. Adrian. Adrian. Adrian. Adrian. Adrian-Hilman. How are you? I am so good. Welcome to Memphis. Thank you. Everybody, Adrienne. And it's spelled A-D-R-A. A-N-N-E, which feels like, you know, Rockies, Adrian, but it's Adrienne. You missed an eye. You missed an eye, bro. Oh, did I? There's an A-D-R-I-A-N-N. Man, that thing.

I'm like, Mom, why didn't you just name me Adrian? Like, seriously, it would have been so much easier. Yeah, Adrienne. So I spent half my life correcting people. Okay, well, and you corrected me before we went on air, and the first thing out of my mouth, I screwed it up. Can I help it. My husband called me that for a long time.

Got it. Adrienne is here. She is the founder and CEO of Salt and Light. It's from the, what is it called? Vesalia. Yeah, Vesalia, California. Think Vidalia, Vysalia. Vizalia.

Vizalia. That's right. I did it. All right. Founder and CEO of Salt Light from Vidalia with an S. California. We can't wait to tell you her story. It's only everybody, it's 10 in the morning and she came from California. She was supposed to fly in last night.

I was supposed to fly in last night. So now you're on a 6 a.m. or something? Yeah, I got to be on the red eye. I got to be in the red eye. It's super fun. But you're staying in the weekend. into Memphis. That's right. All right. Cool. Well, I hope you enjoy. All right. So we're going to certainly get to Salt and Light because that's why you're here and the work that you've done.

I've seen a YouTube video and I've read all of Alex's prep work and I have a thousand questions for you. But first, before we get to that, tell us about Tipton, California and where you came from. And I think it's called Tulare. I probably screwed that up too. Close. To Larry. Oh, good, to Larry. Thank you, to Larry. Oh, for gosh, sake. I know, I know.

Man, I'm sorry. So the San Joaquin Valley, I said that right, although it's spelled Joaquin. Spanish word. So I'm not Spanish clearly. So give us a little background about you. Where you from, how you grew up, kind of established who you are as a human being. All right. I grew up in the middle of a cornfield in Tipton,

California. So Tipton is, at most, has a thousand people, maybe. Pretty spread out. It's a place he haulwood salute. That's right. And grew up on a dairy. My family on my dad's side's Portuguese descent, there's a pretty large population of Portuguese folks in the Central Valley of California. And so Central Valley of California for folks who don't know is we are right smack between Fresno and Bakersfield. So anybody's familiar with. Fred Baskin of the world. That's right. So grew up in a farming family. family. My dad-

Did your family farm? Oh, absolutely. My dad grew corn and cotton and alfalfa. Does that mean you were out as a kid working with your dad on the farm, any? A little. He didn't really want us on tractors. We had a couple accidents on our farm that were fatal. And I think he wanted us to, I grew up with three sisters.

Yeah. No brothers. To his chagrin, I mean, he loves us now. Holy smokes. But, I mean, he was really wanting to buy. A wife and four girls under one roof. Yeah. A lot.

Must have just killed. that poor guy. Yeah, it was a lot going on. So, no, I used to, we actually lived about a mile from our dairy, and I'd get on my bike, and I'd ride my bike down the canal. We had a canal bank right next to us, and I'd ride it to the dairy, right to my grandma's house, and spend a lot of time on the dairy, picked figs out of her tree, and tomatoes out of her garden, and went and teased the bulls in the pens. We didn't get in the pins, because that wasn't a good idea, but so, yeah, grew up on my family dairy, and it was just a, it was a good life, you know, rural, and then went on to Fresno State.

I didn't leave. I never really left the Valley. The Bulldogs. Yeah, the Bulldog. Who was the Fresno State? When did you go to college? So I graduated in 2000. Fresno State was pretty good in football back in those days.

That was the core days. Derek, he's back. He's back. He's moving back to Fresno. Yeah, he just decided to move back. You can pretty much relate anything in the world to football, and I can talk about it. But the Bulldogs were good. And I can't remember the head coach's name.

Jim Sweeney. He was good. He was a really good coach. Yeah. Yeah. Fresno State was worth going to back in those days. You know, it was a great college, and I, you know, it's not super sexy. You know, there's no beach anywhere near.

It's not like a super-duper college town. But I loved it. I loved Fresno State and was really happy with my education. And did that, stayed around and got married and had three little boys. Did you meet your husband at Fresno State? No. I actually, so the husband, Mr. Hillman, Mr. Scott Hillman, who I'm married to now, is my second husband. I see.

Yep. And so my first husband, father of my children, I met him at my dad's racetrack. So my dad also has a racetrack. So, um, cars. Cars, dirt cars. Okay. Dirt cars. So dirt track of, um, 410, 360s, mini sprints, you know.

Um, and so we're racing family. My dad's a dragster driver. So, and a farmer. So I kind of have some interesting history. You know, honestly, when you hear L.A. or you hear California and you flew out of L.A., you think that. You think L.A. You think you're a country girl.

Oh, yeah. But I flew out of L. because I have business in L.A. when I get back. And I spend a lot of time in L.A. I love L.A. I actually love L.A. and San Francisco. I love California. And where I live, it's the best place because, well, first of all, we're at the base of the sequoias. So Tilleri County is the home to the sequoias, the giant sequoia trees, which are miraculous, and everyone should come to see them. They're inexplicable. I mean, I can't describe just they're amazing. And so we're at the base of Yosemite. I'm about an hour half out of Yosemite. We can ski and surf in the same day, and I know people who have done it. We're about two hours from the beach. and three hours out of San Francisco, two and a half out of L.A. It's kind of perfect. I mean, it's also very rural. There are more cows than people per capita in Tulare County. That's truth. Well, there's more churches than gas stations in Memphis, so we all have our thing.

Yeah. We have a lot of churches, too, yes. And incidentally, unfortunately, a lot of folks experiencing homelessness too. Yeah. All right. So it sounds like a pretty organic, I mean, honestly, with the farm and the dirt track and everything, it sounds like, like a cool, maybe middle, upper middle lifestyle coming up with a tight family. You used to ride your bike to your grandparents, so I assume pretty organic, multi-generational. Oh, yeah. Went to school close to home. Yep.

Ran from Miss California. I was Miss Tularee County. That was part of my college. I paid for part of my college. And, you know, I stuck around. I was definitely. So would you do for a living out of college? Right out of college.

incidentally. I was an investment rep for Edward Jones. And I love Edward Jones as a company, but I hated the job. Just didn't want to sell people investments. And 9-11 hit at the time when I was a broker, a young broker in a field where it was 96% men, you know, and I was

22 years old. It wasn't the easiest to get business. And I just didn't love it. And then ended up having kids. I started having my first son I had when I was 25 and stayed home with them. and then eventually went through a painful divorce. And then I was a professionally trained life coach.

I had a practice as a life coach and a speaker and was hosting retreats for women and talking about boundaries and integrity and kind of working through fear and some of those things I had a brand called. Sounds like you might have learned some of that yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Do It Afraid.

I had a brand called Do It Afraid that I trademarked and I utilized that as an empowerment brand to kind of teach women to use their fear as raw material for courage, you know? and did that, and then this whole thing unfolded. Which we'll get to this whole thing. Yeah, yeah. So, again, cool life, doing your thing, neat upbringing, three sisters, I bet you're probably pretty close to if you're anything like, or at least in my four children

are very close, and I get it, but, and not at all in a disparaging way, but it's not like that's this remarkable life or somebody's tapping you on the shoulder and say, go do something for the community. You're just living a normal life. Yeah. Yeah, but I've always had, I mean, I've always wanted to do, I like doing work for the community. So that was important, but that's not what this was. That's not how this happened, though. That way, it wasn't even that. It really came, like, as a call that I didn't want, to be frank. I mean, I've never been anywhere near homelessness. I have had privilege. You kind of touched on that. Yeah. No, how it all came to be was pretty crazy, really.

So let's start with this, and then we'll let you unfold it. And I have some questions about it. Yay. I love answering them. I have some pushback on it. Oh, goody. Oh, no. Yay.

These are my favorite interviews. But my pushback, I'm not even sure if I believe it, but I think many of our listeners might have it. So I want to address it. And let's just hash it out a little, shall we? I would love it. And I will guess that I've been asked this question before I'm guessing. Oh, with what you do, I'm sure you are. Well, it's just interesting how similar are misconceptions or even beliefs around homelessness,

how homogenous as they are really across the country. It's really interesting. So you broke the egg. We'll go ahead and let everybody in on the 30,000 foot view before we get into the weeds. Salt and White, Adrienne started Salt and White, and it was to assist folks who are experiencing homelessness. Did I say that right? I love it.

I was debating with her before the interview, whether you do that. You didn't even say a word to me about it, and I got it right. And it started very small and it's exploded like many of our guests, and we're going to get to all that. So folks who experience homelessness

are what your work is about. But first, before we even get to that and how you got to it, I read this. There's 2,500 to 3,000 people experiencing homelessness in Tulare County out of about a half million residents, which to me is interesting. It's rule. So you think of homelessness more in urban areas. Memphis has an issue with it.

San Francisco certainly does, L.A., and every other metropolitan city. But you don't think about it really in the rural areas as much. And I feel like $2,500, $3,000 out of half a million is a lot. A lot. And I think that nearly half of the nation's entire homeless population is in the state of California. That's correct. Unpack that a little. All right. So to talk a little bit about Tulare County.

So that we understand why you went to work in it in the first place. Yeah. Well, and I didn't even really totally know all of this. Who does? I mean, I didn't know how bad the problem really was. I had a really small view in our little town. But it's rural, but it also isn't. We have, you know, we have cities that are cities that they're suburban, you know,

and that's where most of our folks are living. Yeah, I mean, there's cities, but we're not talking Skid Row. Yes, right. We're not talking metropolitan cities. Fresno would be our closest, you know, semi-metropolitan city. But what I learned early on was in 2019, HUD's report to Congress said that the Tilleri King's continuum of care. So our area had the highest per capita rate of chronically homeless, unsheltered folks in the United States.

That's crazy. Crazy. Higher than San Francisco, higher than L.A. Especially when I constantly hear that agriculture people are always looking for workers. And so that is a little bit of a misnomer because Tulare County also is one of the most poverty-stricken counties in California and in the United States. We're also the least educated, meaning the least amount of secondary or post-high school education.

It doesn't mean our educational system is bad where we are. It means that people don't stay when they have a bachelor's degree or higher. And that's tough because that affects systems, right? That affects government. That affects the way we do things in those spaces. So they get their degree and leave. We have what we call brain drain in the Central Valley. And I'll be frank, I want to do.

believe at points too. I mean, I get the draw. Nashville is sucking a lot of talent out of Memphis, same way. Yeah, exactly. So you can understand. And that does change the way the system's work. It changes funding. It changes all kinds of things. However, we were also 40 years behind the eight ball in terms of having any kind of structure or any kind of shelter system or anything in place for people experiencing homelessness. And you touched on work and, you know, it looks like they need workers. And the problem is this. It's that it's not that people aren't necessarily getting work. We contend that the greatest cause of homelessness is a loss of support or family because we all

know people that are, and we know that there's mental illnesses. It's certainly a factor and addiction. But we all know people who are mentally ill. We all know people who are addicted who were housed. What's the difference? Difference is when someone loses all support for whatever reason. This is not to point fingers at the family. Hey, you're not supporting your people. For whatever reason, someone's lost their support. And so once that happens, when people get into the system of homelessness, it is incredibly difficult to get out. And now, a few messages from our generous sponsors, but first, I hope you'll consider signing up to join the Army at normalfolks. Us. By signing up, you'll receive a weekly email with short

episode summaries in case you happen to miss an episode, or if you prefer reading about our incredible guests. We'll be right back. At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Marcial Masciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ. My name is Elena Sada. And this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually,

how I got out. This season on Sacred Scandal hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determine survivor as Elena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the lights. Listen to Secret Scandal, the mini-secret of Marcial Massiel as part of the MyCultura Podcast Network on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get her podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in

northwest Alabama, where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family, and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him. So he had this little practice, to the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From revisionist history, this is, The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The fact that half the homelessness that exists in the nation is in one state, California. Admittedly a big state, but still. With housing costs that are exorbitant. Well, that's a big part of it. Huge part. of it. So there's an argument, and I'm going to let you play with this. This is the pushback, but there's an argument that in cities like San Francisco that provide basically an enormous amount

of services for people experiencing homelessness and even open-air areas to often continue to behave, to take part in stuff that probably led to their homelessness in the first place, and they tolerate it and actually work with it so well. And same thing in some places in L.A. that one of the reasons that homelessness in California is half of the country's homeless population is because the homeless know they can go to California and get services. And so a lot of the homeless population

is not necessarily indigenous, but invited in by some of those very liberal, open programs. When I say liberal, I'm not talking politics. I mean open-minded, the actual liberal. I hear what you're saying. I was liberal arts major, so I get it. Well, I am too. So, and we can't get into politics because Alex gets mad at me, but the truth is, I don't even know what side I'll land on anyway.

So when I use the word liberal, I mean it as it is in the definition of the word liberal, open-minded, progressive-type thought. The point is there is a, and there's studies on it, there's data on it, but that, yes, California has 50% of the, of the homeless population in the United States. But a big percent of that 50 percent is people coming from outside the state because they know they can get services there, thus exacerbating their own problem. There actually are studies on this. I know.

I am. I know what you're doing. So I'm going to toss that up for you and let you take a shot at it. Let me swing the bat at that. Okay. Well, there are a lot of studies that. And one of the things I learned, at least for Tulare County, so we actually did a huge study in Tularey County.

to figure out where people are coming from because there is a pervasive myth across the country that says people are being you said it's a myth it's a myth that people are being bust in so i just mythologically toss that out there well at least in i can speak for tillary county and i think there are other studies that will back this up to say go for that even if you look at detroit let's say let's go to a place it's like freezing cold i actually have a friend who does some work in oklahoma city and literally when it gets super super cold they're literally chiseling people off the street they're freezing to the concrete it's that cold but they're from there people stay where they're from by and large now certainly people move around but that bit about people moving to

california for it it's a little issue and in clary county i know this for a fact because we've done the study on it 91% of the people that live in tillary county who are experiencing homelessness are native to tillary county okay so let's take that data it's it's real it's it's It's good data. I know. I looked it up before I talked to you, but I wanted to throw out the counterpoint to that so that you had an opportunity to address it. Thank you.

I love it. I like your approach. Yeah, I think that when also, for me, it's like, you know what, when we other people and we decide that they're from another state, another city, another town, another country, another, another, it's like we forget that we're actually, we all just belong to each other, right? And none of us are healed until we're all healed. Oh, yeah, but we can't get into that part yet. Yeah.

That's later. But the deal is this for me. I agree with you, but it's later. Other people's children are my children. Like, that's kind of my stance. And it's kind of like, if people are experiencing homelessness and they're starving in front of me, I'm like, excuse me, are you from Tularee County? Because if you're not, I'm going to have you go get your food in the next county.

You know what I know. I get all of that. But to understand why. that matters, we have to have a baseline for the bulk of rational people thinking to understand where the problem comes from. And if we think the problem comes from, well, we're moving them in, I don't really have a heart for a problem when you're creating it yourself. Well, if we can dispel that notion, we can step forward. So we're dispelling that notion. The second thing is then, if that's not the case, which I used to think it was,

but I've done research and later found out it is a myth. I did too, actually. Because it's plausible. It actually makes sense. Totally. And when the smart people on CNN and Fox get up there with their neat graphics and their ties and their big old words that I can't pronounce clearly how I butcher at the beginning of this, and they start saying that stuff, well, you're inclined to believe it.

Yeah. It makes for good TV. It makes for good TV. And it also makes for really good fodder to continue to. have us separate into our policy political corners. So anyway. And to wash our hands of a problem we don't want to fix. Well, it's also true. So that's a myth. We've established it, and if y'all don't like it, look it up on Google and find out that you might have been misled. But there is another fact that half of the homeless population lives in your state. That's right. So if we're

not moving them in, why? What's the problem? Right. So I'll tell you what, I got my own, I have some boys. Now they're 22, 18, and 16. Well, my 22-year-old starts looking for apartments. And what he can probably get his hands on is around $2,500 a month. Well, I don't know what your first mortgage look like, but mine was nowhere near that. That was $5.95. Yeah. I think mine was something like $900 for a $2,500 square foot house. I was in $1,600 square feet. You were in hot cotton. Yeah, look at me go. But I mean, I was in Tulare, you know, California. But anyway, the housing rates are insane. people are really struggling to stay in housing.

And once that happens, if someone was not already having mental issues or addictive issues before getting to the streets and let's say they lost their job or they lost their housing, chances are pretty good that that's coming next. Because living in survival on the streets,

nothing really is more traumatizing to the nervous system. Adrienne, one of the beautiful things about our country is we have interstate travel free. You don't have to have a passport to go from California and Mississippi. It's a good point. So if you got that problem, why don't you get you a $57 Greyhound bus ticket and haul asked somewhere where it doesn't cost that much and they do need jobs? Yeah, if you've got the money to do that. Well, I thought you're going to tell me about the community part now. Well, I mean, I would say that getting, you know, even my own dad, God bless him. And I know he's

going to listen to this. He already told me he wants to listen to it. But he said to me, What's up? Hey, dad. He said to me one time, and of course, you know I said. Does he have a crick in his neck from going counterclockwise all his life on a mud truck? You're always looking like this? He actually isn't a mud track driver. He's only a dragster driver, but he has a mud track as an owner.

You know why? Because he liked to use a road grader when he was planting cotton. And he uses the road grater on it. I was going to say, yesterday, I drove by the track. I drove by the race track yesterday, and I could see my dad's Tahoe back there. Steve. Hey, Steve, what's up? Glad you're listening.

He's a good dude and a really hard worker, but he asked you, why can't they just get a job? I'm giving you an opportunity to dispel the next thing that people will say, which is there's chicken farms in Arkansas and apartments for $600 bucks. There's people in North Mississippi looking for labor all the time and good jobs where you can live for $1,000 a month, no problem. Because the cost of living, obviously, in parts of the country, much less. Why not, if you lose your house and your job, leave? Just move, yeah. Just move and go get a job somewhere. You're right. It's like people don't want to do that. They want to stay. That's why we know that that data we talked about earlier is correct. People basically stay where they were planted. You know, they want to anyway. It's what they know. It's where the roots are. I mean, look at me. I've stayed that whole time. And I just, it's so much more than a job. It's about community. It's about who you're surrounded with. It's about where your roots are. And I know that people move all over the country from their families. I have a sister who lives in Texas.

I mean, yes, and also she had to recreate a new community there in Texas and a new family because we're all the way in California. And we love her and we get out there when we can. But you have to create a new life somewhere else. And that's pretty tough to do, especially if you are struggling with, you know, adverse childhood experiences, if you've been abused, if you have had some sort of catastrophic loss of family or support. And so having the get-up and go. Mental health issues. Mental health issues, which we know come from trauma. And we know that that's what addiction is about, right?

Addiction is not about just crummy people. It's not. It's about people who are trying to numb a pain. Some of the best people I know were former of it. Hell yeah. One of my best friends is in recovery and is the bravest person I know. You know, it's like, and we're all, if we're trying to numb something, there's lots of different ways to do it. Just some of them are more socially acceptable than others.

And some of them are less destructive than others on the surface. We'll be right back. At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Marcial Massiel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ. My name is Elena Sada, and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out. This season on Sacred Scandal hear the full story from the woman who lived it.

Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Elena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the lights. Listen to Secrets Scandal, the mini-secrets of Marcial Masiel, as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get her podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988, to a town in northwest Alabama, where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to. occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts

to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family, and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him. So he would have this little practice, to the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From Revisionist History, this is The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so what we're talking about, I know you didn't know when you started. This education has evolved, but I think it was important to get to the education and the evolution of the data and the facts before we go back. to where you started, to set the table for our listeners to understand,

people aren't flocking to California because San Francisco is given away free needles on the curve. No. Although we think that. I know. People can move. But when you're at the depths of despair, the last thing you want to do is leave the few people and the few places and the three of street things you know. And so while it sounds good in. principle and true purpose, it's unlikely to happen.

That's right. The other thing is, in California, housing is so desperately expensive that when you get underwater just a little bit, that that teaspoon of choking can become a flood and a hurry. And because it's hard to move, it's hard to relocate. you don't want to leave what you have. Many times the trauma that you're dealing with in homelessness started when you were 16 and abused. The problems are more than just buying a bus ticket. And so that's what we know now.

But you didn't know that. Heck no. And I mean, I told you already. I came from some privilege. And the thing of it is, I think that especially for people who've been nowhere near homelessness or haven't even come close to that. Which is the vast majority of our listeners. Right. When we have not experienced something like that, it takes a desire to want to know how this happened with an open hand. And the thing of it is, we can overlay what we think people should do with their lives based on what

would have worked for you and I as people of privilege or wherever we came from. I know privilege, that's a charge word. And people get really mad when you say it. But you know what? I've never been anywhere near homelessness. I've never worried where my next meal was going to come from. And I say that not in a prideful way. I say that to say, I had a steep learning curve. So I think that is partially why I've somewhat been successful with this because it's like I kind of speak both languages. I had to learn how this happened, why it mattered. I have a heart for people.

Belonging is my heartbreak will get into that. And that's what led me to this. But I also have lived a life of basically privilege and had to figure out because I used to think that my solutions for myself would be what would work for my folks and with enough work with my people who've experienced homelessness. Like moving if you have a problem. Just move. Just get a job. Right. Why can't you just go get a therapist? You know what I mean? I'm overlaying things that I can easily do. But that's way out of reach for someone who's experienced the kind of, I got a guy that lives in my village. I mean, I'm kind of jumping. Oh, you know. No, okay. I won't. I'm just telling you,

there are things I could not get my brain around that are happening in my backyard. in my county that are so appalling and so shocking that we will allow people to live this way and then to condemn them. I mean, Father Greg Boyle, good friend of mine from Homeboy Industries, he says it best, he says, we should stand in awe of what the poor have to carry rather than in judgment of how they carry it. And damn, if that's not the best word, because that probably has been one of the most singularly powerful messages that I have internalized, taken in, and learn, and it has changed the way I see everything, really. We have to stand in awe of what the poor have to carry rather than condemning them for the way they carry it.

That's right. I will use that repeatedly. One of my guests a while back said something easily and simply profound, which is we can be great people and stand in the river. and pull drowning children out of it all we want, but eventually we need to go up river and find out why they're falling in the river in the first place. Same stuff. Preach it.

I mean, I have said it to people, and they're like, the answers are incredible that people have actually even said to that comment. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So now we've set the stage. The table's laid. It's all made.

So here we are. You get a call that felt very, very audible to you. And that was back in 2016 or 17. So tell me about that. Yeah. So I used to think that people said things like when they said, God told me this or God told me. Oh, I'm so glad you're saying this. I just went through this with another guest. Yeah, it actually did sound audible, which was shocking to me. But I'd had one more thing. And it's funny, we brought up my dad because it was actually when I was in the middle of my divorce. And I was pretty outcast from most people. And I remember.

this like audible like go talk to your dad. It like woke me up in the middle of the night. And the right thing to do was to go talk to my dad. That was actually the next best step. So it turns out, you know, somebody was telling me something. And it sounded like that. It actually happened almost the exact same way. And I'm telling you, I used to think when people said something like, okay, yeah, right. God talk to you. Sure. Okay. cuckoo. You know, and I was at church. I was at church and it wasn't about homelessness at all. It wasn't anything about serving the poor, nothing. And my husband and I are sitting in the front row. And I get this kind of like, you're going to serve the homeless. I'm like, no I'm not. So we go outside.

I tell my husband about this, because I tell him everything that feels somewhat supernatural or whatever. And he's like, well, you know, there is kind of a problem brewing. We could start to see the snowballing was starting to happen around that time. And I said, I've never, I've never even served in a soup kitchen. I'm not, I can't. I don't even know what I'm doing. I'm ill-equipped. That's not my... I love kids. I was going to be a teacher. I mean, I had all these excuses. Three weeks later, we had a family friend who passed away suddenly of a heart attack. She was sitting on a board of a local nonprofit, faith-based nonprofit, serving women. Well, at the time, they called it... Yeah. So it was a women's shelter. And they asked me at her funeral if I,

a family friend came and asked me if I would take her place. I'm like, there it is. God was just like preparing my heart so I could sit on a board. there it is, no problem. Sure. I could show up once a quarter. No, it wasn't going to be like that at all. And right away, and they're good people I sat on that board with. They're good people.

However, I could see right away, this was not how I saw things. There were ways in which we were treating and talking about people, but was very normalized. No one was doing anything, you know, quote unquote wrong. It was how everyone talked about those people. Those people just want to use our hose spickets. We need to take them off the building. Those people, I'm like, why don't we get a shower truck? Well, we can't afford that.

Why don't we, you know, so I'm starting to think of these. That's so funny because I'll always do the, you know, after all this effort, you just can't help these folks. Oh, man. Well, it's just, it's hard to hate people from close up when we lean in, but when we other them, it's so easy to demonize, right? Right. It's easy for us because then we can wash our hands of something that's complicated. And I couldn't, I couldn't turn away. And so I did some work around it.

So just to give you a little bit of back. background at this church I was sitting at. This is a church that took me in when another one kicked me out. Yeah. What? Yeah. Why? Because I was getting divorced. Because what? I was getting divorced. And they didn't like the circumstances around my divorce. I see. And so you got kicked out. Correct. Really kicked out. Like, don't come back. Okay. Or we'll send the elders after you. Lovely. Yeah. I did start to notice in my own self, that I was really drawn to helping groups of people that had been extricated to the margins. I had a really good friend who was an actor in L.A. who grew up in Tularee, went to L.A., was on CSI.

He was in a movie, all these things, and came back. He's gay. And he started an LGBTQ plus resource center in the reddest, most not progressive part of California. It was super brave what he did. And I was really drawn to that work, too, because I also found. found out in doing some of this work, how many kids in the LGBTQ plus community are homeless. Catastrophic loss of family or support. Right. You know, it goes back to that.

Anyway, I found myself being drawn to these, to these, you know, groups of people. So the homeless thing, it wouldn't let me go. But I was really frustrated right away. But I already had my own life coach business. I was doing my own thing. I'm like, this is, I don't know how to start a nonprofit. I'm not doing this. Then I'm listening to a podcast because I love podcasts.

And I was Jen Hatmaker. and she was saying, hey, I live in Austin. I live just outside of Austin. And if you are dealing in homelessness and all, you should know Alan Graham. He wrote the book, Welcome Homeless. He's got, you know, has a mobile food truck operation 25 years old. And they started a village called the Community First Village.

You should, you know, get to know this guy. This is in Austin. This is in Austin. So I read the book. I call Alan up. And I'm like, hey, I would love for you to come to our community and do a fundraiser for this nonprofit I'm on the board for. He says, I want you to come to me first. So I did and was taken aback and really was like, this is it.

This is what's missing. It's like, this is the relational piece. There's no us and them. There's no othering. People are living in community with one another. It's like a little mini city. So I'm like, all right, I'm going to take this model back to my nonprofit board and they can implement it. And they're like, no, thank you.

And I'm like, what do you mean? No, thank you. Like, this is a great idea. And like, no, we don't have the capacity of that. No, we really aren't interested in doing it. We like kind of like what we're doing. okay we're not like the church we're not going to kick you out but we're not going to listen to you either well yeah i mean so there's some real themes that were pretty you know they were yeah yeah

i mean i'm pretty sure i was never going to be the the chairman of that board the last words and any dying organization are we've always done it this way and that that is like kryptonite to me like if someone says to me if i ask somebody why they did something and they say it because i always have done it that way i'm like i'm uh i'm not sure you're my people And that concludes part one of my conversation with Adrienne Hillman, and you don't want to miss part two that's now available to listen to you. Together, guys, we can change this country, but it starts with you. I'll see you in part two. the hit true crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith.

For 19 years, Elena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ. This season, she's telling her story. When I first joined the Legion of Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Marcia and Masel, the leader of the Legionaries, looked me in the eye and told me I had a calling. Surviving meant hiding, escaping took courage, risking everything to tell her truth. Listen to sacred scandal, the many secrets of Marcial Masiel,

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.