An Army of Normal Folks - Bob Lupton: My Charity Was Toxic. Is Yours? (Pt 1)

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

Bob Lupton moved into inner-city Atlanta, where he learned the hard lesson that most of his charitable work was toxic. This led him to radically change how he showed up. And to write the bestselling book Toxic Charity that rocked our world and likely will rock yours. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We've got to change the way we view our neighbors. Instead of seeing them as people in need, we've got to start seeing them as people with resources, people with talents, people with abilities. And that no one is so poor in our community, no one is so poor that they have nothing to contribute. Everybody has something to contribute in the community. Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy.

I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm an entrepreneur. And I'm a football coach in inner city Memphis. And that last part, well, it actually led to an Oscar for a film about one of my teams. It's called Undefeated. guys, I believe our country's problems are never going to be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using big words that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox, but rather by an army

of normal folks. Y'all, that's us, just you and me deciding, hey, you know what, maybe I can help. That's what Bob Lupton, the voice you just heard, has done. Bob and his family moved into inner city Atlanta, where he learned the hard lessons that most of his charitable work was toxic. This led him to radically change how he showed up. And to write the best-selling book, Toxic Charity, that's rocked the world of millions of Americans. And his story is likely going to rock yours, because I'm going to tell you something. It rocked mine. You'll hear this right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling.

In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Marcial Masciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ. My name is Elena Sada, and this is... This is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out. This season on Sacred Scandal hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Elena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him.

Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the lights. Listen to Secret Scandal, the mini-secrets of Marcial Masiel as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get her podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control.

35 years. That's how long Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to occur, 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family, and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him.

So he would have this little practice, to the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From Revisionist History, this is The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, everybody, today we have for you a very unorthodox episode for two reasons. One, my guest is not with me. and two, Alex hasn't done his job. So here's how that works. As you guys know, every episode we interview a normal person.

The dude you're about to be introduced to that we're featuring today isn't doing interviews anymore. I think he's had his fill of interviews, but he's a great guy and his story's phenomenal. Giving the number of interviews he's done at his age, he's earned that right. But Alex just loves this guy's story and message so much that he's felt really compelled to bring it to our audience, our army. And he loves it so much that we're about to feature one of his talks and we'll comment on it. To be candid, I know a little bit about the guy's story, but I have no idea what's coming in this speech that we're going to listen to together and comment on. And the part, the second part I said, Alex has given me zero prep.

I think he wants me to hear this for the first time as you're listening to it, the first time. So we can kind of have this revealed to us together. Here's a little bit about Bob Lupton before we get into his talk. Bob has invested over 40 years of his life in inner city Atlanta in response to a call that he first felt while serving in Vietnam, he left a budding business career to work with delinquent urban youth. Bob and his wife Peggy and their two sons sold their suburban home and moved into the inner city where they have lived and served as neighbors among those in need. You talk about a guy that burned the boat.

Their life's work has been rebuilding of urban neighborhoods where families can flourish and children can grow into healthy adults. Bob is a Christian community developer, an entrepreneur who brings together communities of resources with communities of need. Focused community strategies is the name of an organization, I think, he founded. And through FCS, focused community strategies, he has developed two mixed income subdivisions, organized a multiracial congregation, started a number of businesses, created how, for hundreds of families and initiated a wide range of human services in this community. He's the author of several books, including the widely read, which I actually own the book and haven't read it. I've opened it twice, but now I have to. The title of the book is

toxic charity, how churches and charities hurt those, they help, and how to reverse it. Just the title reeks of Turkey Person, and I have no idea if that's really what it's about, but I will tell you a friend after hearing the Turkey Person, a story bought me this book. So it's got to be at least interwoven. The kind folks at Nisorine Compassionate Ministries, they've been really kind. They've allowed us to feature Bob's talk to their group on our podcast. and as we listen to it together, we'll comment as we go. So, Alex, roll tape.

Hey, I've always wanted to say that. I feel like a director. Here we go. Sounds good. Everybody Bob Lumpeter. During that 10-year period, we had started a number of programs that I felt very good about. We'd gotten use of an old Presbyterian church that had closed down. and I got permission to set up our office there and invite the community in for programs and worship.

And so we did, it started a good number of what I felt very good about programs for our neighbors. The one that created the most excitement was what we called our adopt family program. That was at Christmas time. And we would give the names of kids that we're not going to get anything for Christmas to carrying people from around the city who would go shopping. And then on Christmas Eve, they would bring those toys to the homes of the kids. And it created a lot of excitement, as you can imagine. But the first year that we were living in the neighborhood as neighbors,

That was really the first time I had the opportunity to be in the homes of the recipient families when the gift-bearing families arrived. And I saw something that I had just never noticed before. The kids, of course, they were all excited. It was like Santa Claus is coming. The moms were gracious, little reserved, perhaps a little embarrassed. but if there was a dad in the household he just disappeared he went out the back door and it dawned on me what was happening was that these parents were being exposed for their inability to provide in front of their kids and the moms would endure that indignity for the

sake of the kids but it was just more than a father's sense of pride could handle it was as though his impotence was being exposed in front of his wife and kids in his own living room he's killing them i never saw that before and it made me it made me wonder are the other programs that we are doing, the closed closet, the food pantry. It made me wonder, is this same kind of indignity going on in the way we are doing our charity? I was reading everything I could get my hands on. In those days, there wasn't a lot of literature. John Perkins hadn't written his book yet. And I came across one author by the name of Jacques El-L-L-Luil. He's a French philosopher, theologian.

And this quote jumped off the page at me. A little said, amsgiving, that's the old word for charity. Ams giving is Mammon's perversion of giving. It affirms the superiority of the giver. It binds the recipient and demands gratitude it humiliates him and reduces him to a lower state that he had before can you see why that hit me right in heart that wasn't why we were there to to diminish anybody certainly not to humiliate anybody we were there to affirm to encourage and it's and it's

It sent me on a search through everything we were doing. The clothes closet, that was an easy one to start up. You know, we don't wear out our clothes in this culture, except the man. They tend to a little bit. We gathered in clothes from folks around the city, and we had plenty of room in the old Presbyterian church, and so we invited the community in. we said these are the free gifts of God's people. They've been freely given.

Help yourself. And it was a beautiful spirit of sharing until we actually opened the doors. And then folks came charging in and grabbing up as many handfuls as clothes as they could carry out. And then I'd find a clothes scattered around outside. They'd no place to try them on. And realized, whoa, this is this is. is not good stewardship. So we hastily drew up some rules and posted them. Limit the number of garments per visit. Limit the number of visits per month. Well, that was like saying, let the games

begin. Can we get some clothes for our kids that are in school? Well, that's reasonable. Can we get some close for my sick uncle who can't get in here today you just know where this is going in no time we we were acting like temple police guarding the resources of the kingdom against the very folks we were there to serve among it turned into an adversarial relationship almost overnight That wasn't why we were there. We were there to share, to share our lives, to share our resources, to share our friends, not become the guards against neighbors' greed. Wasn't what we intended at all.

The food pantry was, that was a hard one to get equitable. Somebody would donate a couple dozen canned hams, which is a very desired commodity. Well, we've got 50 people standing in line. How do you allocate those equitably? And somebody gets canned corn and somebody else gets pickled beets. Well, like Iulul said, the system demands gratitude. You expect folk to say thank you. But just underneath the surface, you just didn't know what the feelings were.

And now, a few messages from our generous sponsors. But first, please consider signing up to join the Army at normalfolks. By signing up, you'll receive a weekly email with updates about the Army and short episode summaries in case you happen to miss an episode. or you prefer reading about our incredible guests. Please sign up. The more numbers, the more impact. We'll be right back.

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Marcial Massiel, Luke Delena, the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ. My name is Elena Sada and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive and eventually how I got out. This season on Sacred Scandal hear the full story from the woman who lived it.

Witness the journey from devout follower to determine survivor as Elena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Secret Scandal, the mini secrets of Marcial Masiel as part of the My Cultura podcast network on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988, to a town in northwest Alabama, where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did,

why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself, turn to the right to the victim's family and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him. So he had this little practice. To the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From Revisionous History, this is The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revision's history, the Alabama murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You know, when I'm listening to Bob, one of my first, I can't. I Can't help but go back to after Undefeated was released and before the Academy Awards,

after it did so well at the South by Southwest Festival, we got invited to a bunch of film festivals on Toronto, New York, all of them. And we were at the New York City Film Festival, and this is only 45 days before the Oscars. We were just now starting to get some Oscar buzz. And the way these film showings work is they show the film, the audience watches the film, and then afterwards, those involved in the film come up on stage, and they go through a 30 or 45-minute Q&A. And film showed, I'd done a few of this, you know, after South by Southwest, I'd done a few, so I kind of knew what to expect.

And the questions were typically, you know, are you still in touch with the boys? Where are they now? How did the team do the following season? How did you do the following season? You know, how did you feel when Montreal got a scholarship? Same really kind of questions. This time was different, though, when we got up and we sat in the chairs up on stage and the lights went up and the questions came, a woman in the back stood up and asked this question.

Coach Bill, how do you respond to those of us who watch this film and think of it as nothing but yet another paternalistic trope? Alex, I didn't even know what her. I'm the guy that wants to answer every question and really have honest discourse with people about everything. And I was so naive, I didn't even understand. I'd never heard the word paternalistic or paternalism in my life at that point. And I paused. And I fear that the pause means I admit to the people in the audience that I was afraid to answer the question.

I wasn't the case at all. I didn't even understand the question. I didn't even know what the words were. And Dan, one of the directors, looked at T.J., the other director, who those two guys were from L.A., and they certainly knew what the question was. And T.J. began to answer on my behalf, and he said some really kind things about me. And as I listened to the answer, I started to understand what paternalism was. And sitting here listening to Bob reminds me of that so much to this day that so much of what we do,

we have to be very careful not to come off paternalistically. and I mean people will take what you have when they're starving or they have nothing but are they truly appreciative of what you're doing and are you doing it for the right reasons or are you actually subjecting them to paternalism are you actually they're taking it because they need it but you're embarrassing them and the that you're doing by the way you're approaching them. And I think it's a fair question. I mean, have you ever considered that, Alex?

Oh, yeah. You're going to love everything Bob's about to share. We're about to get much deeper into it. And I think all the listeners and you are going to be excited about the solutions that he proposes to us. There are better ways we can do these things. Yeah, the paternalistic things are real deal. I've sometimes argued that government programs, many, and I want to sweep a

too broad a brush, but many government programs are the epitome of paternalism in that, and I really do think most government programs to help the needy had a wholesome, real intent. And either, as happens in bureaucracies, they've morphed into something they weren't originally intended or they've outlived their usefulness, but because so many people depend on them, it makes them very hard to change. But when somebody, when a person in our world has to have what the government's doling out just to sustain the basics of life. But if they, if they achieve a little bit of a higher level, they lose that sustenance from the government. But ultimately, by making more, they get less because they're not high enough over the line

of sustenance to actually make enough to make up what they would have gotten from the government so it's better to just sit below the line so they get the government stuff which ultimately keeps them from ever trying to achieve their way out of a whole and to me that's a very definition of paternalism which is you stay where you are and i'll give you enough to keep you basically basically sustained but don't you dare try to lift yourself out of it because if you do i'll pull that back. And I don't think at all that that was the intent. I don't mean to say that that was the intent of many of our government programs, but effectively, that's exactly how they work. I think what's interesting is, you know, we'll get into more here with Bob, is it's easy to dismiss

the government programs that, like, the harder reflection is so many of our charitable programs that a lot of us are giving money to are doing the exact same thing. They're treating people as problems to be managed and not actually empowering them to escape poverty. I love it. Let's continue. It led to disingenuous kind of relationships rather than deep and genuine relationships. Not at all what we had in mind. We had in mind building community, building trust,

bearing one another's burdens. Service projects, that's one that if you're in a community of need, you're a desired commodity because everybody's into service these days. Churches, certainly, youth groups, schools, businesses, everybody is into service. And, of course, in a community of need, there's an endless array of things that need to be done. And so I planned hundreds of those. weekend and sometimes longer involvements volunteers coming in to do to do really wonderful things that that we needed they patched the roofs of homebound

seniors they built handicapped ramps neighborhood playgrounds actually built some new homes like the habitat model a lot of really good volunteer activity that I felt very good about. Until one day we were, I was sitting on my front porch with my neighbor Virgil across the street. I forget what we were talking about. It was a Saturday morning. And down the street in front of my house came a 14 passenger church van. And they got in front of the house and there were kids in there.

and they were waive, and they had obviously come to do a service project in our community. And Virgil said something that really took me off guard. He said, you know, I just hated when those volunteers come down here. He said, really? He said, I thought you liked volunteers. Volunteers built your house. He said, oh, yeah, he said, they do good, but he said they insult you. They don't even know they're insulting.

He told me about one woman that she was volunteering in the community. She came into his house and was just going on and on about how neat and clean his house was. I said, I know she didn't mean anything by it, but he says, I know what's behind that, that she was surprised that a black family in the inner city wasn't living in Hubble. and another woman that was raving about how smart and well-behaved his children were. He said, I know she didn't mean harm, but he says, I know it's behind it, that she was surprised that my kids were different from the image that she has of inner-city black kids, that they're ignorant and rowdy. He said, they just insult you, and they don't even know.

it. Well, I'm going to tell you it was a series of experiences like this that rocked my world. I was there to do good and in fact was ending up doing harm. I was spreading a kind of toxin among my neighbors that I just had no awareness of. we'll be right back at at 19 Elena Sada believed she had found her calling

in the new season of sacred scandal we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception a man of God Marcial Massiel looked Elena in the eye

and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ my name is Elena Sada and this This is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out. This season on Sacred Scandal hear the full story from the woman who lived it.

Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Elena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the lights. Listen to Secret Scandal, the mini-secrets of Marcial Masiel as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get her podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History,

we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama, where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long

as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family, and apologize, turn to the left, tell my

family I love him. So he would have this little practice. To the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From Revisionous History, this is The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So it really started me down a road of introspection saying, I need to find a way to somehow detoxify what we're doing. I thought we were helping. I need to figure out how to stop hurting people and really helping.

And when I really looked at my own motivations, I certainly did enjoy being in a position of the giver. That was, I wouldn't want to change places. And so I confirmed what Alul said. The man's gratitude. I started to see a pattern that kept repeating itself over and over again in the way we were doing our charity. If I would give somebody something one time, it always elicited appreciation. Surprise, delight.

Oh, gee, thank you so much. if I gave somebody something twice I noticed that it started to create a little anticipation oh I wonder if this is something he does I wonder if this is some kind of a program that he's going to start if I gave somebody something three times it created an expectation I know he

does this, I need to position myself so I'm in line for the next installment that's coming because there is an expectation that this is going to continue. By the fourth time, it's become an entitlement.

You owe me. I would like a ham this Thanksgiving rather than a turkey. Thank you. I have a voice in this. This is a right. And by the fifth time, it's just pure dependency. Can't stop now.

We're counting on this. We're depending on this. I saw that pattern repeating itself over and over again in the way we were doing our charity, and I realized that most of our charity was toxic. We've got to stop. We've got to stop. we've got to we've got to find a better way of serving so the first thing I said was we're cutting it out wow when you first saw that or heard that what was your response

I mean I've never heard anyone formulated that before in terms of the you give once you give twice and how the nature I think you actually might even have one more level after this of remembering but it's almost like you almost like hate the person on the sixth level or anyways yeah it kind of rings of familiarity can breed contempt that's the contempt that's the word i was looking for yeah it kind of rings of and honestly again i know we're talking about charity but if you'll think about the work we've tried to do uh social as a social construct within our government and our country, it's exactly what he says. You end up creating dependency.

And when you create dependency, you strip the ability of the individual to raise themselves up. So ultimately, through trying to do something nice, if you approach it wrong, you cripple the very person you seek to help. Yeah. I mean, maybe I'm being a broken record here. But I think, like, the harder thing to think about is, like, is, I think I'll get a new more about, like, suit cancans, food pantries, you know, some of the homeless shelters and the same exact dynamics can happen there. We're serving the same people over and over and over and over again. They're not actually, their lives aren't getting better in any way.

You've done it that many times. You're, you know, breeding dependency and contempt. Neither is your life getting better in any way. You've just become, you can end up not doing it because you're, you're, you can end up not doing it because you're, you're, you know, really want to help but now because you just feel obliged and that's also unhealthy it's interesting okay more the guy's incredible yeah i mean there's other point too of i wouldn't want to switch who i am in this relationship that's where i know my intentions and motives are messed up like i don't want to be the recipient i like having the power of being the giver and you know i think a lot

of us you know frankly feel that way if we're honest with ourselves it's interesting And I realized that most of our charity was toxic. It says, we've got to stop. We've got to find a better way of serving. So the first thing I said was, we're cutting it out. We're just going to stop all these programs. And the only way that we're going to give things out is when there is a genuine, an emergency and that somebody gets burnt out of their house or a calamity, a crisis, then we'll

give. But otherwise, it's only in a time of crisis. As soon as that word got out, the incidence of crises skyrocketed. Everybody had a crisis. I said, Now, wait a second, no, wait a second. There's a difference between what is a real crisis and what is a function of chronic need. A crisis, that's when a calamity befalls somebody. Chronic poverty is a matter of a series of decisions that have been made.

There's a difference. A crisis demands an emergency intervention. No question about it. That's like when an earthquake hits Haiti. That is a crisis. And so we get in there with life-saving medical supplies and food and clothing and shelter. Do anything that it takes to stop the bleeding. That's the same thing in the States if a hurricane blows through.

or tornado or somebody's house burns down. You get in there with emergency assistance. But as soon as the bleeding has stopped, as soon as all the medical supplies and the food have been distributed, now it's time to help folks start rebuilding. Now it shifts into chronic need. rebuild their lives, rebuild their jobs, rebuild their homes. That's development work.

When you address a crisis with a crisis intervention, lives are saved. It's absolutely the right thing to do. On the other hand, if you address a chronic need with a crisis intervention, mention, people are harmed. Let me give you an example of that. Do you remember, it's been 10 years ago now, when Katrina hit New Orleans, remember that? He sat on television every night, folks stranded on the top of buildings, that was a crisis. And as a nation, we responded, emergency assistance.

And it did save lives. it did. It was not very well organized, as I recall, but it was the right response. I was in New Orleans last fall. You know what's going on in New Orleans today, 10 years later? There are convoys of caring people that drive into New Orleans, loaded down with emergency supplies to minister to the victims of Katrina. Get the victims of Katrina. We've created a whole victim class of people who are dependent for their livelihoods on the ongoing outpouring of compassionate giving. And we've created a community of dependency. It's an example of how people are harmed when you continue to operate on a crisis intervention

when within six months after Katrina, that should have shifted to development, helping folks rebuild their lives, certainly not become dependent on charity. Why do we do it? Well, it's easier. Touches the heart. It makes us feel really good when we are convinced that we're really helping folks in need. It's just that our charity has gone largely unexamined. Haven't looked deeper than the surface.

So we said we've got to change your model. You've got to change the way we go about it. the first thing we said when we've got to narrow our focus we can't serve the poor on the whole south side of Atlanta no way you can have any kind of personal relationships or accountability in that so we're narrowing it down to our immediate neighborhood that way we have the opportunity to build relationships with folks we get to know them on a personal level they're not objects of

our charity programs, their neighbors with names and issues in their lives, not only needs, but also abilities. And then we've got to change the way we view our neighbors. Instead of seeing them as people in need, we've got to start seeing them as people with resources, people with talents, people with abilities. And that concludes part one of our feature on Bob Lupton, and you don't want to miss part two. It's now available to listen to. Together, guys, we can change this country, but it starts with you.

I'll see you in part two. hit true crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Elena Sata was a nun for the Legion of Christ. This season, she's telling her story. When I first joined the Legion of Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Marseille Masel, the leader of the Legionaries, look me in the eye and told me I had a calling. Surviving meant hiding, escaping took courage, risking everything to tell her truth. Listen to sacred scandal, the many secrets of Marseille-Massio on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.