An Army of Normal Folks - Gina Harris: 1,700 Heroic Photographers (Pt 1)

Episode Date: September 11, 2023

When Gina’s son was stillborn, she asked Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep for one of their volunteer photographers to capture her only moments with David at the hospital and this remembrance photography is her most cherished possession. There’s 1,700 volunteer photographers around the world who’ve given free portrait sessions to 70,000 families like hers and Gina is now the CEO of this nonprofit that means so much to her. But there’s still many communities without volunteers and hopefully the Army can help. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Having those photographs doesn't document death. It captures love. It documents David's existence that he existed. He was still born. He never received a birth certificate. But he existed. He lived. He lived inside of me. And so for the parents who lose a baby whether they're still born or they die shortly after birth. A lot of times people who lose a baby, whether they're still born or they die shortly after birth. A lot of times people don't fully understand the magnitude, but these photographs absolutely show like this baby was real, this baby was mine. He had dark curly hair, chubby cheeks,

and those photographs will always be my most treasured possession. Welcome to an Army of Normal Folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, a father, an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in Intercity Memphis in the last part unintentionally led to an Oscar for the film about our team. It's called undefeated. I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people and nice suits talking big words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather an army of normal folks, us just you and me deciding, hey, I can help.

That's what Gina Harris, the voice we just heard is done. Incredibly, Gina was the beneficiary of the nonprofit that she's now the CEO of. Now I lay me down to sleep's 1,700 volunteer photographers have given free portrait sessions to 70,000 families who've sadly lost their children to stillbirth or soon after their births, and they desire a remembrance photography with their children that they can cherish forever. While Gina has an extraordinary story as you're about to hear, the real reason she wanted to come on is to pay tribute to their own army of

normal folks, these 1700 volunteer photographers, their stories right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. What is this place? Wait, why my handcuffed? What am I doing here? 13 days of Halloween, Penance. Season 4 of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio. Where am I? Why, this is the Pendleton.

All residents, please return to your habitations. Light stuff on your feet! You're new here, so I'll say it once. No talking. Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and Dead To Me. Am I under arrest? We don't like to use that word. Can I leave of my own free will?

Not at this time. So this is a prison then? No, it's a rehabilitation center. Premiering October 19th, ending Halloween. I'm gonna get out. And how may I ask, or are you going to do that? Escape! Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple podcasts over ever you get your podcasts. There's a place beyond this place. A middle ground between the light and the darkness, the nature and the zenith. For some it's a bridge between the living and the dead, yet for others it's something else entirely. It's the place where our nightmares dwell. Each one of us has touched the other side and felt the presence of something beyond this world.

Welcome to Hip Hop Horror Stories. I'm your host, Belly. In each week we're going to take you to the limits of your imagination as we explore the reality of paranormal experiences. I believe in the shift for real and the stories you're about to hear might make you believe too. Everywhere I look, I slow something. And I looked closer and noticed there was a hooded figure. And whatever it is, it's like it became reality. Listen to hip-hop horror stories on the High Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcast. When Tracy Rekel Burns was two years old, her baby brother died. I was told that Matthew died in an accident, and no one really talked about it. Her parents told police, she had killed him. Medical records fed that I killed my baby, brother. I'm Nancy Glass.

Join me for burden of guilt. The new podcast that tells the true and incredible story of a toddler who was framed for murder and how she grew into an adult determined to get justice and protect her family. While we had prosecuted some cold cases, this was the coldest, this was frigid. But how does a two-year-old get blamed for murder? She said, we wanted a new life.

You just don't know what it's like when you'll do anything for somebody. Listen to Byrdon of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Gina Harris, hello, welcome to Memphis. Hi, thank you for having me. So you're a six-generated Colorado, Colorado. Colorado? Colorado, yes.

You're from Colorado. Oh, it's Colorado. Got it. Sixth generation. Yes. If you do the math, that's like 130 or 140 years. Your people went out there on wagons. I think they did. My mom, it's my mom's dad's side of the family. They probably went out there for gold, but I'm sure they came

up short-handed because I didn't hear anything because nobody lived in a mansion anywhere. No, no. Well, how are you from Colorado in 140 years and get lost going to airport? No, why? Well, sometimes I go the toll road. Sometimes I don't, but it was this morning during traffic and I didn't go the toll road. So I turned around and went back on it. I did get lost going to the airport Just getting out we were Visiting before we got started and the trip here was tough But Denver built that airport like 1700 miles away from city center. It's in Kansas. Yeah, it's ridiculous I mean, it's way out there and and it still is, even though Denver's grown, just. Yeah, Denver's blown up, right?

Yes. But it still hadn't gotten that far. Yeah, it's a long drive. Right. So it's in Kansas, yeah. Tell me about you, where did you grow up in Denver? I grew up in Arvata. It's a suburb of Denver.

Yeah. And grew up in Arvata. I live in Littleton now. And I went to Colorado State University in Fort Collins. Ram? Yes. That's right. The green and white thing.

Green and gold. Green and gold. Bounce close. And siblings? Yes. I have two older sisters and a younger sister. So four of you. What mom do? what dad do?

My dad was a manager at Safeway. Yeah. Yeah, grocery store manager. My mom stayed at home. She cleaned houses too and did some odd jobs while we were growing up. And what was important to your parents growing up? What was there at those?

What mattered to them? was important to your parents growing up. What was there at those? What mattered to them? I definitely faith. Faith was a very, very strong part. We went to church every week and my dad was a reader and a sher and very involved. He taught confirmation class. He did. He did. That's cool. Did he teach you in your confirmation class. No. So that's the whole other story with my dad. That maybe you don't know. When I was 13 years old, he was only 39 and he died of a brain aneurysm. Oh, it's a work and in died of a brain aneurysm. How and you were 13. I was 13. And your kids were, I mean your siblings were how my younger sisters just a year younger and then my two older sisters. They were already out of the house my my mom was married prior to my dad and my dad adopted my two older sisters so they were they were already I think 18 and.

Probably 22. How did your mom handle that? That was extremely difficult and definitely changed our journey significantly. My mom suddenly had to be mom and dad and it was my younger sister and I. We just felt very much on our own a lot of time. So my mom did the very best she could. But it was very devastating. My dad was the love of her life and still is.

And their anniversary would have been a few weeks ago actually. And she posted on social media about him being the love of her life. And so that very much impacted her and my sister is a me for sure. My dad was my hero and still to this day, the person I most look up to. That is phenomenal. And that was so many years ago and so sudden as we get into your story deeper that revelation is actually maybe even more impactful as I think about your story and your journey. So that happened 13, you were eighth and ninth grade. Then you went on finish school and went to Colorado State, I guess.

Yes. And would you major in? I have a broadcast journalism degree. A newswoman? Micah reporter? Yeah, yes. That's cool. Did you do that?

A little bit, but I just really felt the Lord calling me into nonprofit work. And I also wanted to coach cheerleading. So did you cheer in high school in college? I did. I did in high school. And then in college, I needed to work and to pay for everything. And so I started coaching at a high school. I met some girls on a cheer team and they said, well, you come help us.

Our coach doesn't know what she's doing. And I went and helped. So when they asked me to come help coach, I thought this would be a great way for me to still be involved in cheerleading because I always say that God gave me cheerleading. I found cheerleading after my dad died. It made you happy. It did.

It was. Was it in the skate? Was it? What was cheerleading in a skate? Was it? What's cheerleading an escape? Was it a... I think it was, but it was also healing, because you can't just jump into something as an escape, but then not heal from whatever traumas

that you've gone through. No, that's true, that makes sense. Yeah, but it was a place I could go and forget about everything, because after losing my dad and the impact that had on my family and you asked about my mom, my mom, my sisters, I just wanted to go somewhere where I could forget everything and I made the team the first year because I smiled and that was it. I really have any talent, but I ended up being an all-american cheerleader in high school. No kidding.

Yes. That's very cool. Congratulations. Thank you. And then being able to go and coach, it would be a way to give back. But I started coaching my freshman year of college, and it was right after something else very traumatic happened in my family. My older sister, my second-of-the-old sister, Christine, she was murdered by her husband while her children were in the home.

Oh my gosh. How old was Christine? She was in her early 20s. She was 24. So we're talking five or six years after losing your father? Correct. So your father unexpectedly passes with an aneurysm. Yes.

And then six years later, you lose your sister to a murder? Yes. How? I got to ask you something, I know this is your story, but how in the world did that affect your mom? Oh, it infected the rest of her life that affects her today still. Have you ever heard of the, um, of the Holmes Ray scale? No. So one of, I read far too much, but the Holmes Ray scale was something that was put together. I think in far too much, but the home's race scale was something that was put together

I think in the 70s maybe the late 60s by some prominent Psychologists who were just getting into understanding the effect of mental stress on actual physical health Prior to that there was mental health and physical health, but nobody connected the dots between mental health and physical health and how true mental health and trauma could actually make someone physically ill. Today, we take it for granted because we understand that that's a real thing, but back in the 60s they were just on the advent of trying to understand it. And these two guys, Holmes and Ray, put together a stress scale, and it starts with death

of a spouse, goes through divorce, marriage, or separation, and the scale all the ways goes down to a minor violation of a law, ironically, and I mean, like a major holiday having family overs, apparently, on the stress scale. You got a family you know what that's like. But the each of those stressors have a point total. And if you add up those point totals and they are greater than a particular number, you were considered high stress and at risk of severe health problems. And when reading your story before just now, I only knew about what we're going to talk about later.

I had no idea about the stressors prior that we just learned about your dad and your sister. And frankly, your chart is, I mean, you should walk with a limp or something. I mean, this is, this is, I mean, you and your family have been through have been through it and Your I have to ask your Your sisters how many children did they have well it was her second husband So the children were the kids of her first husband how many so there were three There were three children in the home. How many? So there were three. There were three children in the home. How were they? They were two, three and five years old. What, what did, was he drunk or about? No, no, he bought a life insurance policy on her and they had only been married six

months. So he strangled her to death and he tried to stage it that somebody had broken into the home and done it but his lies didn't add up and so right away they arrested him and he was convicted of first-degree murder and he was given life with the possibility of parole and this happened out in Las Vegas and so At that time you only need to serve 10 years before you're eligible for parole. And he ended up serving just shy of 24 years,

not even the amount of years my sister lived, and they let him out. Wow. Wow. So, um, who took the children? They ended up going with their biological father. And so we've kept in touch and I'm in touch with the still my niece and my nephews and they're in their 30s and you know doing the best they can right now. Do they still struggle with all of it? Yes. Because he got out of jail I guess that doesn't give them the has to be far off. That's part of it but I think you know losing your mother in such a traumatic way, it's such a young age. I mean I can't I don't want to speak for them right now, but obviously with

anyone that's going to have a significant impact on, on your life. And so this happened, your freshman year? This was my freshman year of college. Wow. And you, I mean, that had to screwed up everything for you all over again. I mean, school, your mother, your family, trying to find your place in the world and happiness, all of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it definitely affected me.

And I think it's just more of the trauma of when my dad died. He was fine. He went to work. It was a Saturday. And we got a phone call that afternoon to come to the hospital. He was at work? He was at work, yeah.

He had come home for lunch. And so I was supposed to go somewhere with my friends that day, but I didn't for whatever reason. So we were able to have lunch with him. And I just remember those last moments with him. And then a few hours later, we received a phone call to come to the hospital. And when we got there, we weren't able to see him right away.

But then a priest came out and my mom had gone in and then a priest came out and told my younger sister and me that he had died. And then my mom came up to my dorm and I wasn't expecting her. And she knocked down the door. And this was before anyone really had cell phones or anything. She knocked down my door and I opened it. And I knew something was really wrong. I looked on her face and she told me what had happened. Too Christine. Yes. How, I mean, at this time, you're I guess 19? Yes. I just

heard 19 a week before, the week before. So she died on November 18th at my birthday, November 12th. And my sister left me a message and I still have it because it was one of those old voice recorders with the tape and she was really happy. She said she was going to be doing what she always wanted to do. She told me she was able to quit her job. Her husband was going to work more hours so she could stay at home with her kids and that she was already volunteering at her son's kindergarten class. And that's the last conversation. I ended up talking to her too, but that's the last I talked to her just a week before. And yeah, so to have the shock too, is part of the trauma that everything's fine. And then it's just your world just changes.

How do that? That's more than most people have to deal with in a lifetime. Much less than 19-year-old kid. How did... how did... how do you deal with that horror? How did you, particularly... I'm not saying how does one... I'm saying specifically... How did... where did you find the strength to deal with that horror? saying specifically, how did, what did you find the strength to do with that heart?

Jean is answered to that? Right after the break, but first, I hope you consider signing up to join the army at normalfokes.us. Guys, I honestly believe this army can change our country. By signing up, you'll also receive our weekly newsletter that has short episode summaries and in case you prefer reading about the Army members or celebrating each week, as well as fun and exciting updates about our movement. We'll be right back. What is this place? Wait, why my handcuffed? What am I doing here?

13 days of Halloween, Penance. Season 4 of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio. Where am I? Why, this is the Pendleton. All residents, please return to your habitation. Light stuff on your feet! You're new here, so I'll say it once. No talking.

Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and Dead to me. Am I under arrest? We don't like to use that word. Can I leave of my own free will? Not at this time. So this is a prison then? No. It's a rehabilitation center.

Premiering October 19th, ending Halloween. I'm gonna get out. And how may I ask, or are you going to do that? Escape. Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There's a place beyond this place. A middle ground between the light and the darkness, the nature and the zenith.

For some is a bridge between the living and the dead, yet for others is something else entirely. It's the place where our nightmares dwell. Each one of us has touched the other side and felt the presence of something beyond this world. Welcome to Hip Hop Horror Stories. I'm your host, Belly. In each week we're going to take you to the limits of your imagination as we explore

the reality of paranormal experiences. I believe in the shift for real and the stories you're about to hear might make you believe too. Everywhere I I look I saw something And I looked closer and noticed there was a footage figure And whatever it is, it's like it became reality Listen to hip-hop horror stories on the High Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast When Tracy Rakell Burns was two years old, her baby brother died. I was told that Matthew died in an accident.

And no one really talked about it. Her parents told police she had killed him. Medical records fed that I killed my baby brother. I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for burden of guilt. The new podcast that tells the true and incredible story of a toddler who was framed for murder and how she grew into an adult determined to get justice and protect her family. While we had prosecuted some cold cases,

this was the coldest, this was frigid. But how does a two-year-old get blamed for murder? She said, we wanted a new life. You just don't know what it's like when you'll do anything for somebody. Listen to Byrdon of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, when I was, when I lost my dad, I knew I always wanted to make him proud. And so I was very focused and determined and motivated to be the best I

could be, whatever I was attempting. And I wasn't a straight-a student, lots of A's, lots of B's, but everything that I did, I just, I was always wanting to make my dad proud. And my sister, this particular sister Christine, she's the one that I always talk to particular sister, Christine, she's the one that I always talk to her about, like, boyfriend problems or whatever. She was five years older, so she was like the perfect person to talk to. She was a real love, like, big, quote, big sister.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And just very, just free spirited. And I always say that I can still hear her laughter like right now 30 years later, I can still hear her laughing. And so I'm trying to think where I was going. What was the question? It's that's fair when you're reminiscing about something so painful. How did you deal with it? My throughout high school, I sort of had faith and when I lost my sister, I didn't really you know, I knew who God was, but I wasn't really going to church or anything. And I was just living my life trying to do the best I could. I thought back when was I the happiest?

After my dad had died, my mom, a whole host of things happened, but then my mom sent my younger sister to me to a Christian school. And late in college when I was almost graduating, I just thought, when did I feel the happiest? When did I feel the best? And I thought back to that time, it was shortly after I lost my dad. And I'm like, I'm just gonna try some different churches and I started doing that.

And I just thought about a lot of the bad things that I had done that I felt bad about or guilty about. And I knew that I needed God's forgiveness. And I thought, how can God forgive me for all the things I've done. And I thought about the murder of my sister. And I knew that I needed to release the bitterness and the anger. And so I just arrived at a place that I need to just forgive him, not that I would tell him that or have a conversation, but I needed to forgive, and then that's when I really felt God's forgiveness of me and what the Lord has done for me.

And so since that time, you know, my faith has been fairly strong. It's just, it's been up and down to. Everybody's. Yeah, yeah, you have just, it's just like relationship with Jesus is just the same as you would have with your spouse, not the same, or with your sibling. That, you know, it's great, and sometimes it's not, but there's still that love there. And that's really what's gotten me through,

but even when I didn't even know or acknowledge that God was there, I just, I remember a year ago, I was on a run and God distinctly told me he said Gina. I've been with you That your whole life, but especially when dad died. I have been with you and just helping me through everything That's pretty phenomenal. With a guard to, you're talking about Christine's ex-husband slash murder. I don't know how it works, but I do believe there's a difference in forgiveness and a pardon.

And I think it is incumbent upon us to forgive, but that does not mean you're pardoned from your evil. Correct. And I really had research forgiveness and saying forgiveness keeps coming up in my life. Other people I have to forgive. That just makes you normal. You know that right? Everybody deals with that for sure. Yeah, but it's, yeah, forgiveness doesn't mean it excuses what they did or that hurt that you experience and that I still experience. In my book, there's actually a chapter on forgiveness, an entire chapter I wrote on it. And it speaks about grace. And one of the things that I believe with everything I am, and I say it in the book, is that forgiveness is actually more important for the forgiver than the forgiven.

Correct. And I think when people get their arms around that, they will understand that forgiving, forgiveness is hardest for the people who do the most egregious things, but it's also most important for you to forgive those that do the most egregious things so you can just move on. But it doesn't mean you pardon it. It just means you forgive it and you understand that whatever that person's done is between his and his God,

but between you and your God, you're good. That's right. Well, and he was eligible for Pearl after 10 years. And so even though I had had that forgiveness, my family and I, we went and talked to the Pearl Board. And we did that multiple times every three years until 2017. So, and then they released him. But that's exactly right.

You can forgive, but there's also consequences for actions as well. And we knew at some point they would release him. We are surprised when they did, but we knew it would happen. Well, Jean, at the ripe old age of 19, your freshman in college, you've lost your father, your sister's been murdered. And you still got to graduate and you do, and you, do you do the broadcast journalism thing? I did in college. I did a little. Yeah. But I right before I graduated, because I went through December of that year, that summer before I graduated, Fort College had a huge flood. And the flood wiped out the entire Student

Center of not the bottom level of the Student Center at Colorado State. And it destroyed our whole TV studio with all of our tapes. I'm nothing's digital. So now you have nothing to show me. Back in 1997, nothing is digital. And I'm sure that flood meant a lot to a lot of different people, but for me, I was already going in a direction of, do I want to do this? Because if you're going into TV news, that's going to be your life. You drop everything.

It's the latest story. And so I, all my tapes are gone. And we didn't have a studio to even record anything new. I had a semester left of college. So you have no you have no real any that's your resume. It is. So and even what we kind of rebuilt of the station, like I remember one of the Denver TV stations donated all the equipment and we just at that point I'm like, okay, Lord, you just sent me on a new direction in my life. Which was? Which was, I had been competing in the Miss Colorado,

which goes on to Miss America system. Really? I had been, and, okay, let me get my years right. So, the year I was going to graduate from college, I was the first runner up to Miss Colorado. Really? I was. That's cool college. I was the first runner up to Miss Colorado. Really? I was. That's cool.

Congratulations. Thank you. And then, what was your talent? I sang in the Nideans, so I've done both. Really? Yeah, the talent always got me. I did well in the interviews. So after I graduated from college in December of 97, the Board of Directors of the Pageant terminated the contract of the

Miss Colorado who had won that year and asked me if I would fill in because that's what the first runner up does. And I was praying about it because in six months I was going to get ready to compete for Miss Colorado. Again, being the first runner up. I thought I had a shot. What up? But I thought Lord of all the, all the people all the years I get first runner up. This is the year this happens. And I ended up taking on the title of Miss Colorado. And I honestly, you did you won. Well, no, I didn't win. I, I filled in because they fired Miss Colorado.

What Miss Colorado day? Nothing more or a decent just not abiding by the the contract. All right. So because you're runner up, you get the thing. I did. But then she decided to sue and get the title back. She didn't want to give back the crown, the car, the money. And this is so long ago now. But so it went to a judge before in arbitration. And during that time, I'm serving as Miss Colorado and this was on a date line people magazine like I'm in the Frank Sinatra edition the year he passed away

of people magazine. So it's in all of these media stories and She's trying to get the title back and when people asked me about it. I just said I I'll talk about my platform domestic violence awareness. And so two weeks before I'm supposed to crown the new Miss Colorado, the judge made a decision that I'm no longer Miss Colorado and the woman who won is the rightful Miss Colorado. So I went to a press conference and they were expecting me to say, well, I'm going to sue I'm getting the title back. And when I was driving to Denver for this, I'm going to sue. I'm getting the title back. And when I was driving to Denver for

this, I thought I already served as Miss Colorado. I did what I set out to do. Do I need this title by my name for the rest of my life to show that I'm significant, that I mean something? Is this title me or am I significant because of who God created me to be? And this is what led the news. I said this exactly. My identity is not in a crown, it's not in a car, it's not in money, it's not in the title of Ms. Colorado. My identity is in myself and in my faith in God. I am Gina before I'm Ms. Colorado,

but I will always be grateful for this experience. Peace out. Dooses. My job. It's a wrap. Yeah, and I share that like with my cheerleaders, I coach now, I share this when I go out and speak because our identity is not wrapped up in what we achieve or our titles. We are significant and unique because that's how God created us. And if our life is dependent and our identity is dependent on whatever you're setting out

to achieve, then what happens when that goes away? I was Miss Colorado one day and then the next day I wasn't. Am I less significant? I'm talking about something a lot more than what you achieve or what other people say about you. It needs to be about character and commitment and integrity and the basics of who you are and the human you're designed

to be for sure. Yeah, okay. So, you meet this guy and you marry him. Where's that at? Oh, that was way later. Yeah, well, what am I missing in the middle? Well, not a lot. A good single life, actually.

A what? A good single life. Yeah. Okay. So you have a great single life. Well, I went and said nonprofit work and... You're kind of Miss Colorado. So you got this life in Colorado.

You're a six generation Miss Colorado. And, you know, that's all going. And I think I read you went to work for a nonprofit, right? Friends first or something? What is friends first? We did youth mentoring programs for students. So we trained high school students to mentor a middle school students.

Oh, it's cool. We had a national conference. And I was there until 2011. That afforded me the opportunity to go and speak. At school assemblies, I did a lot of things with different states, Department of Education, and I was able to do a lot of traveling and feel to see a lot of things, so it was really fun. So life's good.

So then I get asked to speak at a school. And my future is in Colorado. In Colorado. And my future... Is this in Colorado again? In Colorado. All right. And my future husband was sitting in the audience, and he wasn't a high school student, don't worry. Ha-ha-ha. But he was the athletic director at the school

and the principal introduced us. And I thought it was kind of cute, but he will always say this, that I was very professional. I just kind of shook his hand. And didn't give him any kind of like look or anything. But did he give you a kind of look? I think so. So he was he's athletic director. Does he also coach? Yes football. Yes. He's coach football basketball. He was he coach volleyball for a year. Yeah, he knew nothing about it. I was about to say he's a great motivator. Nobody would want me to coach volleyball. It would

be like that Lasso show. What's that like Ted Lasso or something? The guy the football coach goes over to Europe coach soccer and he's just a complete disaster. That'd be me coach of volleyball. Yeah, but they had nobody to coach it. So that was just one season. Obviously they moved on to somebody else. But yeah, he coaches football, basketball, and so he's the athletic director and they had just started a cheer program.

So I don't know what school or where the athletic director actually cares about the cheer program where they would call me and say, hey, do you wanna come help our cheerleaders? Never been called by an athletic director about that. But I knew what he was up to. So. That he, Rob, did he not think anybody saw right through that? Hey, you would have come help with the cheerleaders

and oh, by the way, I'll be here when you show up. Yeah, I know, well, he was coaching basketball. And I went, the cheerleader's our shoved in a hallway to practice. How long did you date? Not very long, actually. At that point, I was 28.

He was 32, or maybe 31 at the time. And neither one of us had been dating anyone seriously for quite a while. We were just living our lives and just working with students. And so I just really felt like, well, I didn't want to date right away. I just wanted to be friends, friends first where I worked. But he's like, I'll wait. But it's not like he was selling widgets or something and his colleagues were

like, oh, he's a great guy. I mean, I had parents coming up to me saying things like he's God's gift to this school. He's a great guy. He's a good guy. Yeah. So I felt like they were unsolicited. I mean, he might have slipped in money sometime when I didn't realize it to say good things about me, about himself, but yeah, then we just really just knew that

this was right. So we got married about 10 months after we met really. Yes. Yes. Wow. Mainly because of football because. Yeah. Well, I'm going to get married before the season and we'd have to wait. And I wanted to get married. You're talking to a guy who got married when he was a football coach. I met Lisa after the third game of the season and we had to get married before spring practice started. Plus, I was a football coach and I was broke and had no money. That was, we got married at December 17th around Christmas time because they didn't have to bounty flowers because the church was already decorated with all the Christmas stuff.

I should have done that. Oh, oh, it's the greatest thing in the world. Oh, Christmas marriages in a church are like a bargain and everybody's festive anyway. So it was great. And that's when I had to get married to be able to go on a honeymoon because it was Christmas break. I couldn't take off anywhere else

because I had coach in a school going on. So I absolutely get how you kind of fit it in when you're a coach. Oh, exactly. So we'd gotten married in August 7th, but because of the time, everything started a little later. Yeah, but it's both school started soon. Well, yeah

Now now we're all the practices are starting even earlier So we had decided almost two years ago to renew our vows, but we picked a different date July 7th because it didn't interfere with our sports Chair or football so that's one of the reasons why we picked July 7th That's really that's a cool story. So that's one of the reasons why we picked July 7th. That's really, that's a cool story. So you're now 28, you've, you know, although clearly even today, the death of your father still affects you, but you've coped, you moved on, your sister obviously still affects you, and but obviously still affects you. But you've coped, you've moved on dealing with it and you get married and you're starting a family and you've got your college degree and you're just kind of starting this normal life. And football coach guy, husband and you get pregnant. Yes. How long had you been married?

We were married three years by that point. Got it. So three years, gotten through the newlywed thing. I mean, sounds like the natural progression of things, right? You meet, you build your life together, you're happy, and you get pregnant. And you wanted a family, and he wanted a family, right? And so you're all ginned up and excited to have a baby. Yes. So I read where you said you found out the gender

and you started buying stuff, I guess, for the nursery, is that right? We went in for the 20-week ultrasound and the baby wasn't really moving and she actually didn't really say much but she said you're having a boy. She the OB. Yes. Well, it wasn't the OB. It was it was a ultrasound.

Oh, a child person. Okay. So she couldn't tell us much but I'm'm newly pregnant, first pregnancy, you don't know anything. Yeah, like I don't know anything about this. All I knew was that you had to drink a ton of water and I had it in the bathroom and she actually loved me because she wanted to see if the baby would move. But the baby wasn't really moving. Did she tell you that?

Yeah, she said, oh, I think he's just sleeping. And his heart was beating and the heart was fine so we just thought he was sleeping and R.O.B. was out of town and then I went to one of the youth conferences that my previous nonprofit and I received a phone call from my O.B. and he said we need you to come back in to see a perineatologist It looks like your baby may not have kidneys. And I'm like, what are you talking about? We'll be right back.

What is this place? Wait, why my handcuffed? What am I doing here? 13 days of Halloween Penance. Season 4 of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio. Where am I? Why? This is the Pendleton. All residents, please return to your habitations. Light stuff on your feet!

You're new here, so I'll say it once. No talking. Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and Dead to Me. Am I under arrest? We don't like to use that word. Can I leave of my own free will? Not at this time.

So this is a prison then. No, it's a rehabilitation center. Premiering October 19th, ending Halloween. I'm gonna get out. And how may I ask for you going to do that? Escape. Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart radio app Apple podcasts over ever you get your podcasts. There's a place beyond this place. A middle ground between the light and the darkness, the nature and the zenith.

For some is a bridge between the living and the dead, yet for others is something else entirely. It's the place where our nightmares dwell. Each one of us has touched the other side and felt the presence of something beyond this world. Welcome to Hip Hop Horror Stories. I'm your host, Belly. In each week, we're going to take you to the limits of your imagination as we explore the reality of paranormal experiences. I believe in the shift for real and the stories you're about to hear

might make you believe too. Everywhere I look, I saw something. And I looked closer and noticed there was a footage figure. And whatever it is, it's like it became reality. Listen to hip-hop horror stories on the High Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. When Tracy R. Kell-Bernes was two years old, her baby brother died. I was told that Matthew died in an accident,

and no one really talked about it. Her parents told police, she had killed him. Medical records fit that I killed my baby brother. I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for burden of guilt. The new podcast that tells the true and incredible story of a toddler who was framed for murder, and how she grew into an adult determined to get justice and protect her family. While we had prosecuted some cold cases, this was the coldest, this was frigid.

But how does a two-year-old get blamed for murder? She said, we wanted a new life. You just don't know what it's like when you'll do anything for somebody. Listen to Byrdon of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What it something that had happened just the day before I was I was getting ready and I have this overwhelming feeling come over me that said, this baby will not be with you next year. How? Why did you have that feeling? I don't know because I told my husband. You know, a father when you were young and that even though you move on in cope, that leaves a trauma and a scar and an emotional reaction that you never really walk away from. And you've lost a sister, dramatically, in ways that most of us will never

understand a comprehend. Is it possible that you just had a sense of dread because you'd experienced so much loss in your life? No, I, because I didn't know about baby's dying. I didn't know about that. And I- You just really had a sense that the baby was dead. I felt like God was warning me because he knows that like anyone who knows me now, I don't want huge surprises. Because especially shocking things.

It doesn't matter if I'm going in for dental work, I'm like, tell me exactly when you put it, you're putting the shot in. Like I want to know, or like anytime I'm getting in for dental work, I'm like, tell me exactly when you're putting the shot in. Like I want to know, or like anytime I'm getting blood work or anything, I'm like, you need to tell me when you're doing that. There's no doubt that's a condition that's from a UX man. There's a young person.

Oh, absolutely. So, I'm like, and tell me it's going to hurt. Like don't sugar code it. Like you tell me exactly what this procedure will feel like. So the day before that it happened and then we get a call. So I'm trying to read in the book, what to expect when not expecting

and there's like a half page on, oh, sometimes babies die or sometimes there's problems and there's like a half page. And it said something about the kidneys but then it said, oh, they could be born with clubbed feet. And I'm like, okay. So we go in to... Tim out.

Kidneys can make club feet. I don't know. Oh, that's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. Sorry, I got it. Okay, I would, sorry, but that just took me to how in the world does that happen with, okay, I got it. You're just saying, they give you all this list

of things that can happen to babies and it It's a knowing what I know now and we'll get to the rest of the story is just Like thank you this book is not meant for people who have complications in their pregnancy There's other books like a gift of time. I'll just Recommend but there's other books for people who are complications of their pregnancies. But so we go to the paranetologist and he said, your baby doesn't have kidneys, which basically means I have no amniotic fluid.

So the mom produces the amniotic fluid, the baby drinks it, and then they basically pee it out and then they drink it and pee it out. And that's what develops the lungs. Oh. So things that, you know, you don't know, you don't learn that in school. And so if they don't have kidneys, that function's not happening.

It's not happening. And so it's mainly lung development isn't happening. And he said, you know, your baby's breach, your baby will never turn. And he said, you know, most women, and I said, don't say it. And he said, what know, most women, and I said, don't say it. And he said, what did you think I was going to say? And I said, if you're telling me to terminate the pregnancy,

I won't do that. And he's like, well, you're gonna be walking around pregnant. And everyone's gonna be asking, like, what, you know, when are you do? And he said, and then this baby's breached, so you'll have to have a C section, you'll always have to have C sections. And he was like scaring me into it. And I, I just knew that I'm not going to make any decisions because what if they're wrong or what if a miracle

would happen. So we decided that we would carry the baby. And he was right in the sense that people were asking, Oh, when are you do? And I'd have to buy a maternity clothes. And I just never went up to the register anymore. I had my husband do that, so they wouldn't talk to me about it. And just tried to carry on as best I could. So at that point, I'm 22 weeks into the pregnancy. And then we were told that babies with this condition usually go and you go into labor mid 30 weeks into the pregnancy. And I'm doing math. So weeks is seven and a half months.

Yes. Right. 28. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Probably. Yeah. It'd be about eight months actually. So I was due December 5th, but then I went into labor on October 25th. So I went into labor and I had heard about an organization called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep. And they provide remembrance portraits to parents experiencing the death of a baby. And there's photographers who volunteer their time and go into hospitals who capture the only moments parents spend with their babies.

And a friend had told me about them and this was back in 2007, the organization was founded in 2005. And at first I thought, why would you do that? But I went to the website and saw these gorgeous photographs and I thought I should at least get it done because I don't have to look at them but this will be my only opportunity. I'm not a roach for sure. I um when I first started a view I went to now I lay me down to sleep and I read about the fact that this is volunteer photographers going into one of the most desperate sad times of people

they don't even know lives and sucking it up and providing pictures for folks who are in a very traumatic sad situation, which to me is phenomenal that people would volunteer to do that. Also found out that it is the largest volunteer organization for photography in the world. And that right? Is that stat about right? I think that's right. I think so. Yeah, I think that's right. I think so. Yeah, I think that's right.

I'm pretty sure that's right. So I want to say that first. And I don't mean this any other way, except I just, I want to tell you, when I first heard that, I couldn't help but think, is that appropriate? And I don't want you to take that wrong, but I'm just my first blush was, you're taking a picture of a past away infant. And it on the surface, when you first hear it, I couldn't help but kind of recoil from that and think, oh my gosh, how do you, how do you do that?

And how does a volunteer who doesn't even know these people they're taking these pictures of, I struggled with it until I heard and read some of your words. So right now when people hear what you've said before they've heard anything else, they've heard that you carried a child that had an almost no percent chance of survival. That your husband went to biomaternity clothes at the counter because you just couldn't deal with the questions anymore,

which I don't know, he dealt with the questions because I'm sure somebody said, oh, is your wife pregnant? Are you excited? Everything else? And he had to suck it up. And the pain of that, but you guys, as a couple, making the decision to hold on that pregnancy

because maybe the doctors could be wrong, which I find heroic that you would put yourself through And then preparing and at the at the advent of the birth and the child's death to take pictures of that moment, which is to me documenting pain, that's how I felt it when I heard it. But once I read more, it was very much the opposite. And, but as our listeners are hearing it, I got to believe many of them are going, Oh my gosh, how do you, that ghoulish, but I want you to tell our listeners why I and anybody thinking that when they hear this story are so dead wrong. Sure. Well, I think sharing a little bit more in my story too would help really answer that question. I think so too.

I do want to back up a bit and just say that I know what it's like to be in that room with a doctor and they're encouraging, you know, termination and I know that there are many, many parents who have made that decision and I just want to make sure that they know, you know, they needed to make whatever the best decision was for them. I also know what it's like to sit there and be pressured to do it. So the choice I made is not to not value other people's choices, what they made. I just, I wanted to acknowledge that for sure. It was just the best choice for you. It was the best choice for me, but it's partially exactly. And no stones it on other people's choices. Because I was freaked out. He scared me. And so I completely understand why some people would go a different route than me. So I do want to say that, which I think is important and I appreciate you saying that. Nobody needs to feel guilty about decisions they've had to make in horrifically traumatic situations and you're

not casting stones, you're saying that was the best decision for you and Rob at the time. Exactly. Exactly. And so David came on October 25th, 2007 and we had a photographer capture our time with him. And we got the pictures and they were and still are the best gift we could have been given. They are treasured. Having those photographs doesn't document death,

it captures love. It documents David's existence that he existed. He was still born. He never received a birth certificate, but he existed. He lived, he lived inside of me. And so for the parents who lose a baby, whether they're still born or they die shortly after birth, a lot of times people don't fully understand the magnitude

but these photographs absolutely show like this baby was real, this baby was mine. He had dark curly hair, chubby cheeks. And we wouldn't have known that if we would have chosen other paths. And those photographs will always be my most treasured possession. We'll be right back.

What is this place? Wait, why my handcuffed? What am I doing here? 13 days of Halloween Penance Season 4 of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio Where am I? Why, this is the Pendleton. All residents, please return to your habitations. Light up on your feet!

You're new here, so I'll say it once. No talking. Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and dead to me am I under arrest? We don't like to use that word can I leave of my own free will not at this time? So this is a prison. No, it's a rehabilitation center premiering October 19th ending Halloween I'm gonna get out and how may I ask or you going to do that? I'm gonna get out and how may I ask or you going to do that? Escape Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart radio app Apple podcasts over ever you get your podcasts

There's a place beyond this place a Middle ground between the light and the darkness, the nadir and the zenith. For some is a bridge between the living and the dead, yet for others is something else entirely. It's the place where our nightmares dwell. Each one of us has touched the other side and felt the presence of something beyond this world. Welcome to Hip Hop Horror Stories. I'm your host, Belly. In each week we're going to take you to the limits of your imagination as we explore the reality of paranormal experiences. I believe in the shift for real and the stories you're about to hear might make you believe too. Everywhere I look, I saw something. And I looked closer and noticed there was a footage figure.

And whatever it is, it's like K-Bit, it became reality. Listen to hip-hop horror stories on the High Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. When Tracy Rekel Burns was two years old, her baby brother died. I was told that Matthew died in an accident, and no one really talked about it. Her parents told police, she had killed him. Medical records fed that I killed my baby brother. I'm Nancy Glass.

Join me for burden of guilt. The new podcast that tells the true an incredible story of a toddler who was framed for murder and how she grew into an adult determined to get justice and protect her family. While we had prosecuted some cold cases,

this was the coldest, this was frigid. But how does a two-year-old get blamed for murder? She said, we wanted a new life. You just don't know what it's like when you'll do anything for somebody. Listen to Byrdon of Guilt on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I can't tell you how many parents have reached out to now lay me down to sleep who lost babies decades ago. They weren't even allowed to hold their baby.

And just seeing those photographs helps them with their healing, even though they don't have those photographs. David's photographs. David's or other babies. Just seeing those helps them heal from just a different time when the babies were swept away. But it's actually, if you look at the history of photography, typically because it was so expensive, there's a whole collection of post-mortem photography from the late 1800s, early 1900s, and people usually received photographs after

someone died. Right. I know. I can't remember the old western photographs of loved ones in caskets. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I can remember that. Or they would kind of set them up as if they were alive. There's a whole history and information about that. But then when people were, I don't know what years it would have been, but people used to prepare bodies for burial in their homes.

That's why it's called a parlor. But then when it started moving to the hospitals, then death was treated very differently. And so then you have these moms losing babies. And I've seen these post-mortem photography sessions with babies, like, you know, even like two-year-old who die. And it's, I think, that really changed how we view death.

And so really having these photographs are the best thing. And I, we even have a board member at now, I leave me down to sleep, who said, he's like, at first I thought it was morbid. Like, why would I do something like that? And those are, those photographs are the best gift that he could have been given. Tell me about if you have any recollection of it, but I want to know about the photographer. I want to know about the person who took David's pictures with you and Rob. Sure. How?

I'm sure. I'm no photographer. I can't even operate the camera on my phone. I don't even know how to operate my phone on an airplane. I don't I can like answer it. That's as far as my phone operations. Okay, I can't take pictures. But even if I was a photographer, I would would have a huge lump in my throat and some reticence and anxiety over going in to two parents, I guess hospital room with a child. How do you do that? What was that experience for you from that you could tell from that

photographer's perspective, how did that go? Well, it was a beautiful experience. And it's okay, if I share now I am now the CEO of now I lay me down to sleep. You just ruined the whole thing. I know. Well, I think we will get to how that happened. We will. Because I'm so much more to this story. I'd like a Sandy Pooch is one of the founders of Now I lay me down to sleep. And I so that I want to speak to my personal experience. But this is ever I want to talk about every photographer that we have with this organization. Um, I'll be a photography conventions and they're like, oh, I could never do that. I'd be too emotional.

And, you know, Sandy, she had tears in her eyes during the session. And that made me know she cared. And so photographers that volunteer with this organization have such heart and compassion, but typically what happens is they go into the room and they have a job to do. They have a skill, they have a talent, a photography, and they know that this is the best thing they can do with their camera.

We hear that over and over and over from our volunteer photographers, that that they can as a volunteer photographer They can go in and give parents their most prized possession Who wouldn't do that? If you have a talent of photography who wouldn't go and do something that would very dramatically change the healing journey for a family to have those photographs? And we have many photographers that say, if they did not photograph any other type of photography, they would still always volunteer with now I lay me down to sleep. Because it's that powerful. So oftentimes, you know, you think about,

oh, that would be hard to go in to those sessions. But our photographers just take their camera as kind of like kind of a shield or a barrier, and they're in there getting a job done. It's typically after the session, it'll hit them, or when they're looking at the images and doing the retouching, that's when it hits them and um... Regina, it's a job, one thing. These folks are volunteering to do this.

They are. That is phenomenal. They are, yeah. And it blows me away. Who is your photographer? It was Sandy Poach who's one of the founders. And that's a Sandy male female. A female. Yes. And how did she present herself when she came in?

And had you met her prior? I did meet her prior that never really happens. This was a kind of a different situation because, hey, let's go back to my time, my journalism time at Colorado State. The executive director of Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep happened to be in the journalism program with me and at campus TV. So when I called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep, Jessica called me back and she said, is this Gina Wake all? And my last name is Harris now. And I'm like, how do you know that's me? But she knew my voice. And so we made the connection and she'd been working at a Denver TV station,

but she just wanted to change a pace and she was running the organization. So she asked me if I would do some interviews with the LA Times and nine news in Denver. And so for sight, I didn't know if I wanted this story all over, but I thought what are the odds that I know Jessica, and I know she's not gonna be me to the wolves with the media. And so we did the story. So we had the opportunity to meet Sandy, but that's never really the case with families

who lose a baby. Typically, they don't know about the organization ahead of time. They're in the hospital delivering the baby, and that's when the nurse will talk to them about now I lay me down to sleep and then dispatch a photographer to come and photograph me. So they're on call? Yes. Yes. So a photographer is sitting at home and they're part of the, they're 1700 photographers volunteering for now, I'll only me down to sleep, understand. And so they're on call. And

the traumatic happens and, and the hospital calls and says, we have a family, and they gather up and roll, and they don't know and the family doesn't know. And this volunteer goes into a family in the midst of all of this and creates photos for the family. To me, that is extraordinary. It is extraordinary from the family perspective. It's also extraordinary from the photographers perspective. And it's extraordinary from now, I'll lay me down the sleeves perspective that they're able to volunteer and give to grieving parents. Like you've said, their most prosperous session, which is a remembrance that this child was real and lived. Beautiful. Amazing. I can't think our photographers enough and it's exactly how you

describe it. In the US alone, there are 40,000 babies that are still born or die shortly after birth. And we serve more than 4,000 a year and since the organization started, we photographed more than 70,000 babies, all by volunteers. And what they do is remarkable, it's incredible. And I've been with the organization now. I've known about it for 15 years, but with organization for almost 12. And I still, it's still just really, I don't know if surprises me.

It's just, it's really meaningful to know what they do. I could have said it better myself. Absolutely amazing what those folks do. And that concludes part one of my conversation with Gina Harris. And I really hope you'll listen to part two that's now available. This amazing story is far from overcast. 13 Days of Halloween Penance Season 4 of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio. If I am under arrest, you have to tell me what I'm charged with.

Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and Dead To Me. Please, you've been some kind of mistake. I'm not supposed to be here. How do you know? I'm innocent. I'm any of us truly innocent. Premiering October 19th, ending Halloween. Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts over wherever you

get your podcasts. Oseh County, Oklahoma, is getting a lot of attention right now because of Martin Scorsese's latest movie, Killers of the Flower Moon, about the 1920s Oseh murders. I'm Rachel Adams-Herd, the host of Intrust. For over a year, I reported a different story. About other ways white people got Osage land and well. And how a prominent ranching family became one of the biggest landowners here. Listen to the award-winning podcast Intrust

on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. trust on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Moaraka and I'm excited to announce season four of my podcast, Mobituaries. I've got a whole new bunch of stories to share with you about the most fascinating people and things who are no longer with us, from famous figures who died on the very same day. To the things I wish would die. Like buffets. Listen to MoPituaries with MoRaka on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.