An Army of Normal Folks - HIGHLIGHTS: How Your “Good Intentions” Keep People Stuck in Poverty

Episode Date: October 13, 2026

In this episode, James Whitford, co-founder of Watered Gardens and True Charity, breaks down why most well-meaning charity accidentally traps people in dependency instead of helping them be self sufficient. He’ll walk us through what true charity looks like. This one will change how you think about giving, volunteering, and what it actually means to believe in someone. ARMY ACTIONS Subscribe to the podcast and rate & review us! Signup to join the Army, visit NormalFolks.org Join or start an ANF local service club at https://normalfolks.org/service-clubs/ Take The 10 Level Challenge, "the hero's journey for service" at 10LevelChallenge.org Record a testimonial or recommend a guest - https://army.storytap.com/906/start/anf-listeners?epdescription Follow us on all socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/armyofnormalfolks/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@armyofnormalfolks Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ArmyofNormalFolks X: https://x.com/armynormalfolks LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/an-army-of-normal-folks/Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/#joinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I would encourage your listeners to memorize these five steps to dependency. They're really important and they're pretty easy to remember. If you give something to somebody once, they'll appreciate it. But if you give the same thing to them again a handout with no expectations, they're going to anticipate that it's going to come a third time. If you give it to them a third time, a handout, then they're going to have an expectation that it's going to come a fourth time. If you give it a fourth time, they'll feel entitled to it.

and a fifth time they'll be dependent on you for it. There are five steps to paternalism that I feel like go along with five steps to dependency. The giver, when a giver gives that first time, there's a sense of exhilaration. It's just like, oh, that felt so good. The second time that I give that same thing to a person, no requirement, no expectations, right? Now I'm feeling useful. Hey, you know what, I'm useful to this person, you know? and then the third time, I'm going to feel necessary.

The fourth time, I'm essential. I'm essential. This person really, it needs me. I'm essential. And the fifth step to that is paternalism. But the continual, perpetual crisis relief handout model drives this codependency that lands in dependency for the receiver and paternalism for the giver. And this is incredibly unhealthy. We'll be right back.

heard the chaos. Now you can see it. Do we want to jump right in? Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish right inside the free IHard radio app. Make some noise. Wooee! Catch every laugh and eye roll on shows like Bestie Listen. Hey Jonas and Las Culturistas. Now with full video. I'll just leave that there. It's the same hosts and the same chemistry with all the hilarious moments you've been missing right on your screen. Open the free IHard radio app. Search video podcasts and tap watch. Lisa Jeltson, and in my new podcast what happened to her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety.

Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies.

She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to what happened to her on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard account after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this.

The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over. and over. We'll hypnotize him to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good France. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well,

they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examine, the backfire effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the

to hide the body, but someone will find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly. He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and I said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw him violent. Backhanded a bow!

And that's exactly what made us all think he had something to do with him. The clock is ticking down in the woods are calling. There are a lot of demons in Putnam County, but I've met the devil, and he's real. I'm Paul Solitarev, and this is Season 2 of The Devil's Quarry. Listen to The Devil's Quarry Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear The Devil's Quarry Season 2 ad free with exclusive content, Subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Shortly before 6 o'clock a.m. on November 13th, 1991, Annette's mother and her two young

sons found her unresponsive inside their apartment. Investigators ruled the case a homicide. Over the years, detectives continued searching for answers, but the case eventually went cold. This is Hunter Gilmore, host of Hunting for Answers, a True Crime podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic. of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told and to the questions that still remain.

As the years passed, detectives continued working the case. But more than three decades after Annette's death, no one has been held accountable. Annette's mother, Freda Scott, spent years hoping to see her daughter's case solved. She never saw that day come. Annette Jones's case remains unsolved. Listen to Hunting for Answers,

A True Crime Podcast from the Black Effect Podcasts, Network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. James Whitford is the co-founder of True Charity, a national movement of almost 300 charities, which is amazing that it's gotten to that, that helps the charities move beyond handouts. They believe trap people in dependency to empowering people instead toward self-sufficiency. He's an expert in how not to make your charity toxic and how to make it true. You guys opened a mission in Joplin in 2000 and you're working your butts off and your heart's in the right place and you want to serve and you want to help, but it's not working. Well, so.

But apparently something even before that. Well, yeah, and I think it's important for your listeners to understand the- They're your listeners now, Jane. Okay. Our listeners. So important for our listeners to understand that compassion is incredibly important. Now compassion can lead to all sorts of things, some good and some not so good. But if we don't have compassion to start with, where we really feel for our fellow man,

we're not going to get anywhere, which is one of the reasons why government fails at this, because government's not an institution that can have compassion. The people in it can be as compassion as they want, No institution can be loyal and no institution can be compassionate. People in it can. Right. But institutionally, that's not their function. Right.

So it's very typical, I think, for people like my wife and I to, you know, about 30 years old, say, you know, we're feeling compassion. We want to do something. We're young. Let's save the world. And you start to do something, right? And that's not a bad thing. It's like, I'm glad that people are compelled by compassion. And we certainly were.

there was no wisdom really with that compassion at that time. There was just a lot of heart. Again, I do not want to undermine the importance of that. I mean, people need compassion. But we got into the work and realized within a few years that, yeah, there are now thousands of people come through our doors. We were basically a redistribution center. We'd call out to our community and say, hey, there's a lot of need.

How do you know there's a lot of need? Well, there's a long line of people. Okay. Well, so can you give us stuff? Because we want to hand more of it out. That was basically the model, right? And we were loving on people, but there were so many coming through our doors. And we just realized this is not.

What was it? When you say a mission, what was the function? Well, yeah, when it started out, it was just a small little 900 square foot room with stuff in it. I mean, clothing, miscellaneous things. You know, people might donate diapers. We'd give them out to single moms. some furnishings for people who needed help with furnishings in their houses. I mean, so that's the kind of thing that was happening.

There was nothing that was developmental in nature. That almost seems oddly transactional. It is. It's very transactional one way, really, more than anything, just a one-way transactional hand-down. You show up, you say what you need. If we have it, we give it to you. We might pray for you on the way out the door or whatever. try to be a source of encouragement for you.

But truth be told, we just weren't seeing the outcomes. And so we made a shift. Now, this was probably, oh, a handful of years into it. I have to ask you a question. Good. You were a giver. You were useful. Did you start to see yourself as necessary?

Oh, yeah. Did you start to see yourself as essential? To some people. Absolutely. Yeah. So, in fact, taking from your own writing, had you developed into journalism at that point? Absolutely. That's so interesting.

Absolutely. Those are your words. This happened to us, no doubt. Okay. So then you decided to make a shift? Well, we did. We decided to make a shift. I mean, books like the tragedy of American compassion, toxic charity, they were instrumental in that.

I had an encounter with a homeless individual that was very very, very. life-changing for me. Well, I had begun to feel compelled to go and be on the streets with people. And so we'd been in a ministry for a handful of years at that point, and I thought, I don't want to do this.

I mean, at that point, we had five kids in the house, and so I ignored it. And then I felt it again. I was like, I'm supposed to go out and be with people on the streets for some period of time. And I shelved it again. again, I ignored it. And the third time that I felt it, I thought, I better tell my wife. And so I said,

Marcia, I think God's telling me I'm supposed to go and embed myself kind of out on the streets with people. And immediately she said, oh, yeah, I think God will tell me before you go out onto the streets. And I was thankful for that because it wasn't like something I was wanting to do. But that very night, coach, we were reading a book called Crazy Love by Francis Chan. And the very chapter that we were reading together that night, opened with the story of a guy who left his home and went out onto the streets. So I did the next day, nothing but the clothes on my back, walked everywhere, no cell phone. I just embedded myself. For what period? A couple of weeks. A couple of weeks. I was out on the streets. So you purposely left. No phone, no money, no nothing. No phone, no money.

Let me live as though I'm trying to serve. Couldn't take a ride anywhere. I was never in a car. I walked everywhere. And you learn a lot when you do something like that. But this one encounter with a homeless man named Ralph, it was in the evening time, and we're sitting on a curb together. And he has a sandwich. And it's already cut in two. And he said, would you like half of my sandwich, James? Now, all I'd had that morning was a donut. So I was hungry. And the thing that, and if you put yourself in that situation. I mean, some people would say they would probably feel what I felt, which was like, no, I'm not going to take your sandwich. I mean, gosh, Ralph, you're the guy that we've been helping for a long time now. And I mean, I know I'm out here on the streets with you, but I mean,

I've got a place I could go if I had to and I'm not going to take your sandwich from you. But you're hungry. You're the ministry and I'm the minister. See, it was that paternalism thing. It was there with me. And I said, and I thought, I didn't say it, but I remember thinking you're the, the ministry and I'm the minister. But I was so hungry that evening that I broke bread with Ralph. And when I did, something happened, I realized that I had been treating Ralph and thousands of other people as objects of my good intentions rather than subjects who have autonomy, agency, and capacity to contribute. And that was a changer for me. And I realized we've got to change the way we're doing ministry.

If you hadn't accepted the half of the sandwich, you're saying to Ralph, you have nothing to offer me. Exactly. And if you tell people in that position, they have nothing to offer and they hear it enough, what can they be other than takers? And live out a purposeless life. That's such a good, that was the, that was the damaging thing with our, charity at that time. It was not calling people into purpose. And that night, Ralph, had a purpose.

It was to help me. So it was a beautiful moment. It was a transformative one. And that, along with some reading and just, you know, objectively looking at the fact that we were not solving problems, we just made a change. And we turned our whole ministry into an earn-it model. And even today, We still have our worth shop. We call it a worth shop because we believe work awakens worth in people's lives. And this is a place where folks will go who are in need. They may not have any cash, but they've got something to give. And they'll work in one of our social enterprises to earn the very basics.

Things that you and I and many of our listeners today would say, you should just hand that out. Look, it's food, it's shelter, it's clothing. These are basics. just give it away. But I say, wait, if a person's able to do a little bit of something for something that he needs, isn't that more dignifying? And so our worth shop allows for people to keep their dignity as they earn vouchers that they can then spend at our thrift store, at our shelter, for nights of shelter,

clothing they need, whatever it might be. So instead of standing on a corner begging guy for a dollar, they can actually go do something and add value to something to trade that for their needs. Not only that, but at the end of it, we're able to shake somebody's hand and say, hey, thank you. You did a good job.

You did a good job today, and I thank you for your help. And now a few messages from our generous sponsors, but first, thanks for tuning in to an Army of Normal folks where our mission is this. Make service easier for all of us, and together change our country. We're announcing something new today

that I'd love to invite you to. We've launched a place where you can record a short video to share guest recommendations, podcast recommendations, your feedback on how we can get better, but please be nice on that one. I know my shortcomings.

I don't need a video to point them out. Just be nice. And testimonials. You can also record testimonials about our content. and service clubs that we'd love to consider featuring. Doing any of these things would help us a ton. And here's the payoff. If you do this, you'll be automatically entered to win 500 bucks.

If your game to do it, visit an F video.org. That's an F video.org. We'll be right back. You've heard the chaos. Now you can see it. Do we want to jump right in? Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to Finish right inside the free IHard Radio app.

Make some noise. Wooee! Catch every laugh and eye roll on shows like Bestie Listen, Hey Jonas, and Las Culturistas. Now with full video. I'll just leave that there. It's the same hosts and the same chemistry with all the hilarious moments you've been missing right on your screen.

Open the free IHard Radio app. Search video podcasts and tap watch. I'm Melissa Jeltsin and in my new podcast, what happened to her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck,

because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies.

She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it and he got a year. I never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to what happened to her on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard account after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this.

The more I kept reading this stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize them to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good France. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examine the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body.

But no one will find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly. He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and I said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw him violent, backhanded him. And that's exactly what made us all think he had something to do with him.

The clock is ticking down, and the woods are calling. There are a lot of demons in Putnam County, but I've met the devil, and he's real. I'm Paul Solitarev, and this is Season 2 of The Devil's Quarry. Listen to The Devil's Quarry Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear The Devil's Quarry Season 2 add free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Shortly before 6 o'clock a.m. on November 13, 1919. Annette's mother and her two young sons found her unresponsive inside their apartment.

Investigators ruled the case a homicide. Over the years, detectives continued searching for answers, but the case eventually went cold. This is Hunter Gilmore, host of Hunting for Answers a True Crime podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told and to the questions that still remain. As the years passed, detectives continued. continued working the case. But more than three decades after Annette's death, no one has been held accountable.

Annette's mother, Freda Scott, spent years hoping to see her daughter's case solved. She never saw that day come. Annette Jones's case remains unsolved. Listen to Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I'm just thinking through your story, right? if I'm a guy showing up being free stuff all the time and all of a sudden you tell me, nope, you got to either work for it or you got to show up with a few dollars. Now, your $5 may buy $50 of the groceries,

but you're going to be in on whatever, and I'm used to just showing up getting free junk. That's right. I may not like that so much. Yeah. Because you're trying to break a, a, it's a bondage. dependency is like a bondage in cell.

So you're trying to break that. Yeah. Some people are like... Thousands of them didn't... Forget them. Thousands of them didn't even come back through our doors. Literally. Thousands.

Thousands. So we went from seeing about 4,000 people a year coming through our doors for handouts to like 1,200 where we were doing better work. But most people would say, you've chased out the very people trying to help. You fail. No, no, no, no. People would say that. Yeah, but what was the good that we were doing? We weren't doing any good.

We were trapping people in poverty. We were not incentivizing them in a way that's positive or helping them develop what they need to escape poverty. We were just keeping them there. And so we, yeah, that changed. There were 2,800 people who went somewhere else, and that was a big problem because we knew they're just going down the street. To the next hand out place or to some government agency that's going to hand out. outstop. So what do we need to do? And we launched true charity. That was the whole impetus of the drive behind it. So did you recognize when you went from 4,000 or 1,200 that you were actually being

successful? Well, right. Or did that feel? That had to have felt like that had to have challenged your hypothesis on how you needed to help those that are underserved, it had to challenge you a little when people started showing up, or were you so steadfast in your belief that this was the right thing, that that was okay? The latter, we were so steadfast in the belief. It was, we understood at that point what we needed to do, and we became principled charity leaders. So of that. This was the principle. And I told, I remember telling our team that we may be all sitting around here drinking coffee together with nobody coming through our doors. But we knew it was the right thing to do.

And so we refused for the sake of being able to tell our donors, we've got a lot of people coming through our doors, or being able to say this is how much food we gave away or handed out. We knew we were no longer going to do that. We were going to shift our model and outcomes improved. Can you talk about some of the success rates that you saw with the change rather than nobody's life being transformed to, you know, what percentage of people's lives did you see transformed? The first thing that we noticed when we made this shift where we were calling people into contribution and requiring something in exchange. When was this for a timeline? I'm trying to pick up. That would have been...

This is like 2012- Oh, 2007. Okay. Would have been the time when we really put that into more of a full swing. All right. Yeah. All right. And so, I'm sorry, you started to see... Well, we started to see people going to work.

And so, I mean... Holy moly. Poverty is complex. And people can be in it for a lot of different reasons, right? But there's one common denominator to escaping poverty. And it's a job. You cannot get out of poverty without a job. And so that was one of the things we began to look for.

How well are we doing it, helping people move from, you know, unemployment to a job? Which, i.e. is dependency to independence. It is. Absolutely. If you're not, if you're not employed, you're dependent to some extent. And we really found that kick-starting the work engine in a person when they come through the doors of a mission, rather than saying, hey, we see a charity case, tell me what your need is. We've got some of that in the back room. We'll give it to you. God bless you on your way out the door.

Instead of that, as people come in, we say, hey, we see capacity in you. We would like for you to partner with us today. Here's what we've got to do, and we'd love to help you with what you need. And when you start that reciprocity, that exchange, right, there's a value that's awakened, dignity that's awakened. It's like, wow, I can be a part of this. I can contribute. And yes, you can.

And you can contribute in the greater community as well. So let's talk about employment. And then so we found that employment outcomes were much better when we kickstarted employment at the mission right on the front end. If we want work and if we want employment as an outcome, which is very common, why not start with work on the front end as soon as possible? It really does sound so simple, doesn't it? It's not that complicated, but it's hard for people to make that shift. Oh, for sure, because so much of that shift, I mean, you're not breaking down one human being's world.

You're in oftentimes breaking generational. mindset towards society. It's true. Now more than half of the folks that are coming through our mission jobless will leave with a job. But it could be a lot better. And this is something we ought to talk about is the real conflict, the real tension that exists in so many people who are having to make a decision every day, whether to take James and his true charity network across the nation, up on the challenge of contributing or whether I should go this other route. Which is easier and free. Which is easier and free.

But it will keep me where I am. Yes, but we're economic creatures. And if I feel like I can get what I need today without having to do a whole lot for it, that's typically where I'm going to go. A good example would be a guy I'm meeting with right now regularly had just about a month ago started these weekly meetings with him. He's in our respite unit. So we, and at our mission, we have a handful of different ministries in southwest Missouri

underwater gardens. One of them is a respite unit for folks coming out of the hospital, finishing recovery from a surgery or an illness who have no home. So Kevin was in our respite unit and I met him. And he said, you know, he had two shoulder surgeries from a seizure where he fell and fractured both shoulders. Wow. And so he's going through it.

And he said, you know, someone said I ought to consider disability because of my shoulders. And so, and he, and at that point, he didn't know who I was or what all I believed in. But he's telling me about this. And he ends up going to the disability attorney who then wants to do an assessment. He goes to his assessment. He comes back and he says, you know, James, it was interesting. I went for this disability assessment. And they weren't that interested in my shoulders.

They were asking me all sorts of psych questions about trauma in my background, how I'm feeling about life and all this. And I said, well, Kevin, it's a lot easier to qualify you for disability through a mental health issue than it is a physical debility. That's why they're looking at that. And he's going, yeah, I'm thinking I might need to move in that direction because I'm concerned. I don't know if I'm going to be able to get back to work or not.

Right there. They talk to them. Right there. That's the tension that means. Millions of Americans are in the middle of right now. They're dealing with guys like me saying, Kevin, let's talk about the future and how bright it can be. Now, thankfully, at our third meeting. But on the flip side, it's almost, I'm envisioning the metaphor of the angel and the devil on this guy's broken shoulders.

Yes. You're trying to say you have value and can do it while this other person say, oh, I got a much easier route for you. Just be a dependent. I have seen it time and time and time. Again, I have watched people be pulled. One man named Scott was in our long-term residential recovery program. We call Forge. And he was entering into the work phase.

This is months into the program. And he's getting excited about it. And he even shared in front of a group. I'm excited about going to work. And then he received a disability determination letter from an application he'd put in long before he entered into our program. And they finally determined, okay, we're going to give you back pay. thousands of dollars, $4,000 of back pay would come to him and a check for about $980 a month

forever more if he wanted it. He sat in my office with his head and his hands trembling under the weight of that decision as I said, Scott, you know you can do it and we know you can too and you don't want to walk off into a life of dependency like this. And he did. He left that day and decided to take the $4,000 of back pay and $980-some-odd dollars a month from a federal government who doesn't know a squat thing about Scott, nor does it love him like we did. So these are the rent-up-in-batches. The federal government's own poverty level says if you're not making, I think, a minimum of $23,000 a year, you're in poverty.

So the government is actually sentencing him by that gift at $12,000. year to a life until death. Now, he'll be able to work part-time, but he would never work full-time. But you know what I'll say. And that creates this cliff kind of effect, like, because if I want to go work full-time, I'm going to lose my disability benefits, so I don't want to do that. Now, it's not, I shouldn't be picking on Social Security Administration so much. I mean, this happens in private charity as well as public charity.

We create disincentives for people to step into a flourishing life. Did it break your heart when he walked out your door? It did. It broke my heart. Because you knew. Oh, yeah. And I felt like a failure, too, because part of my job, and I think part of every job of a person engaging folks who are in poverty is to be a source of inspiration. We need to inspire people and beacons of hope for people. It's what we long to do. But there are perverse incentives that are incredibly strong that pull people away.

Do you wonder where he is now? I do. Absolutely. And there are many others. we've seen that happen to, but we have a lot of great stories like Kevin, who's now decided he's going to move toward work. And a lot of that has to do with the personal relationship that we've developed over the last month. We'll be right back. You've heard the chaos. Now you can see it. Do we want to jump right in?

Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish right inside the free I-Hard Radio app. Make some noise. Wee! Catch every laugh and eye roll on shows like Bestie Listen. Hey Jonas and Las Culturistas. Now with full video. I'll just leave that there. It's the same hosts and the same chemistry with all the hilarious moments you've been missing right on your screen. Open the free IR Radio app. Search video podcasts and tap watch.

I'm Melissa Jeltsin and in my new podcast what happened to her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared. for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck because by all rights, I should be dead.

Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her.

No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it and he got a year. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to what happened to her on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system.

And over my career, I've heard account after account of prosecutorial misconduct. story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this. The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize him to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good france. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me.

They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examine, the backfire effect, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body. But someone will find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly.

He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and I said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw him violent, backhanded a bow. And that's exactly what made us all think he had something to do with it. The clock is ticking down and the woods are calling. There are a lot of demons in Putnam County, but I've met the devil and he's real. I'm Paul Solitarev, and this is season two of the devil's quarry.

Listen to The Devil's Quarry Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear The Devil's Quarry Season 2 ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Shortly before 6 o'clock a.m. on November 13, 1991, Annette's mother and her two young sons found her unresponsive inside their apartment. Investigators ruled the case a homicide. Over the years, detectives continued searching for answers, but the case eventually went cold. This is Hunter Gilmore, host of Hunting for Answers A True Crime Podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told and to the questions that still remain.

As the years passed, detectives continued working the case. But more than three decades after Annette's death, no one has been held accountable. Annette's mother, Freda Scott, spent years hoping to see her daughter's case solved. She never saw that day come. Annette Jones's case remains unsolved. Listen to Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. One of the things that I found fascinating is almost 300 organizations have joined your true charity now.

And 64% of them has significantly changed how they do charity. Yeah. So not only are you, has true charity changed the way you do your work, you were now scaling this and changing how other charities do that work. How did other charities decide, yeah, that's just the right. How'd you pull that off? Well, I would give God the glory for that. The strategy, in part, I think it is highlighting the injustice of what we thought was good. And so there is a movement underway.

And I think movements are propelled because of injustice. I mean, you look at the great movements in U.S. history. What do you mean women can't vote? What an injustice and a movement was underway? What do you mean I can't drink at the same water fountain you can? What do you mean I got a ride on the back of the boss? I got a ride on the back and a movement was underway, right? What do you mean that you own me and a movement was underway?

And so I think this is a movement that's underway in part because we are, and we're not the only voice here, but we're saying there is a type of help that's doing more harm than good that's dissuading people from stepping into a life of purpose and dignity. And so that is an injustice. And so I think there are people who see it, they know it, and they want to join that movement. So in part, that's it. But the other part is that we're really providing some very handy equipment in how to make

the change in your organization. Because we can feel these things and know these things and want to make the change, but changing an organization and the way it's operating is not an easy thing to do. And so we're helping make that much easier. So organizations for the first time are starting to measure outcomes, not just how much food they gave away or how many people came through the doors or whatever, but outcomes like toward employment and gains in social capital. The equipment is the how-to, how-to guides, toolkits, model action plans,

as well as connecting leaders with other leaders who are doing it and going through it so that they can share the best practices with one another. How you put all this together with the intent of scaling this to other charities? The intent is to transform the way charity is practiced in the United States. Everywhere. Private first. But you're hanging around in Southeast Missouri doing your thing. Well, this is the thing.

You understand what you're saying, how'd you pull that part off? Well, you know, it's a desire to solve a problem. I mean, when you have 2,800. people who walk out of your doors in a year's time and you realize they're going to just remain dependent, they're going to remain dependent on someone else's handout. You know you need to do something. Like there are systems that are broken. There are thoughts about charity that be reformed. So you want to fix your competition. I'm kidding. We just, but in some regard, that is true. You knew you were losing people to other charities who were still providing the toxic

charity that you were once providing, and you said, we got to help our other charitable people understand what we've learned. Exactly. That's incredible. That's exactly right. And so we just got started locally doing lunch and learns and some radio PSAs and different things like that, covering the ideas of compassion and common sense, things you and I are talking about, and just began to work locally, and then that grew into a national initiative in 2020. How did you get a food pantry to stop handing out food? Because that's what food pantries do. By definition, everywhere I know, a food pantry has food, people that don't have food, go, and they hand them food.

That's, I just basically said the entire model. But you got a food pantry is when handing out food. Well, there are different ways, right? But one way is to just ask the question, what are you hoping for in the long run? What are you hoping for in the long run with the people you serve? Now, most people are in it because they're really compassionate. They want to help people. Like you said at the top.

Right. And when they answer that question, they're going to say something like, well, to live a flourishing life or to be independent or they're going to say things like this. This is what we're hoping for. But then we ask, how are your programs, how are the charity that you, how is that helping get to that. How is what you're doing? Matching what your dream is. Exactly. And that's really.

look at you like, oh boy. Oh, there are light bulbs go off all the time. Yeah. You know, people go, oh, I haven't really thought about that. And so, yeah, there are awakenings that are happening. So the answer to how you get people to food pantries giving out food is you simply say, what is your hope for the outcome for the people you're serving? Well, what is it that you're doing to actually make that outcome happening?

And then they have to look themselves in the mirror and say, I'm doing that's wrong. I mean, seriously. But then they say, can you help? And we can. We've got an outcomes toolkit that will help you connect your dreams for the future with your programs and begin to measure things that are going to help you improve your programs to actually attain the things you're hoping for in the long run for the people you serve. It's an army of normal folks who are going to do it.

If you could say something to the army of normal folks, since you're talking to them right now, what would you tell them about? not specifically us, but just service in general, that you think people need to understand. There are a lot of people who want to solve problems of poverty, but not very many people who want to be with people who are in poverty. That we have a great problem in America where we want to do for more than we want to be with. Good point. And it's incredibly important that we allow God to change our hearts,

where we desire what he wants, which is to be with people. And we need to pick that up and say, okay, I'm going to allow that to infect my heart and I'm going to be with someone. I'm going to walk alongside them. I'm no longer going to be thinking about my services how many meals I served down at the local mission or whatever

or how much I worked in the clothing store. or the food pantry, but did I develop a relationship with somebody? Was I a listening ear? Was I able to advise in some way that can be helpful? Can I develop a relationship with an individual and be a source of inspiration and hope for a brighter future? And in all of that, is there accountability

that's mutual in that relationship where... Am I willing to take the other half of the sandwich? Am I willing to take the other half of the sandwich? and to believe in the person, to believe that normal folks are incredibly extraordinary, and to believe in that, and to make sure that the belief is coupled with expectations. And that's incredibly important, probably a good note to end on. If our expectations, if we believe in people, we'll have expectations of people. If we have no expectations of people at all, what it means is, I don't believe in you.

And so it's okay. It is okay to couple your compassion and your charitable heart with expectations that are going to help people know, I believe in you. I see value in you because that's going to be the source of inspiration that calls people into a life of purpose. James Whitford, everybody. Co-founder, Water Gardens, co-founder, CEO, True Charity, Jopla, Missouri, that has spread to 300 other charities so far. Because I got it. I got to believe you are pushing. Oh, yeah. We want to see a thousand in the next few years.

And so any of our listeners today would say, I want True Charity to come into our community, gather some leaders together. let's have a workshop, do it, do a day. We'd love to come. Absolutely. Let's spread this stuff. It's a movement. Thank you for coming to spending time with me. Thanks for the drop down. James, it has been an honor and a pleasure to meet you, and I can't wait to see what you guys do next, and I'm going to keep tabs on you. Well, thanks, coach. Thanks for being such a champion of civil society as well. So it's great to be partnered with you in that. That's awesome. Thanks a lot. Thank you for joining us this week. If James Whitford has inspired you in general, or better yet to take action by rethinking

how you approach service, reading his book, The Crisis of Dependency, having your nonprofit join his true charity coalition or something else entirely. Let me know about it. I really do want to hear about it. You can write me anytime at bill at normalfokes.org, and I will respond. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with friends and on social, subscribe to the podcast, wherever you're watching or listening to it, rate it, review it. Join the Army at normalfolks.org.

Join or start one of our local service clubs. Take the 10-level challenge. Buy our merch. Share testimonial, feedback, or content ideas at an F-video.org. Any and all of these things that will help us grow, an Army and Normal Folks. I'm Bill Courtney. Until next time, do it you can. Detective said he had stalked her before she died. Years later, they said he remained the person they continued to focus on.

This is Hunter Gilmore, host of Hunting for Answers, a True Crime podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told and to the questions that still remain. Listen to Hunting for Answers, a True Crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeart Art Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 1986, a man named Scott Macklam was killed in broad daylight. Police quickly found their suspect. Prosecutors convicted him. But now, almost 40 years later, I'm re-examining this case. I really didn't believe any of it was real.

And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Has the wrong man been in prison this whole time? Listen to Examine the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From shocking betrayals to carefully planned murders, the Black Effect's new original podcast series, Bloodline Crimes, hosted by me, Morgan Wood, explores the darkest and bizarre cases where family became the most dangerous threat of all. Listen to the Black Effects bloodline crimes every Thursday, starting on. October 8th from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I had just seen Ice Tea guest at the Apollo at the Snoop Dog concert, and I told him that,

and he sort of looked me up and down and went, huh. Hi, I'm Lisa Trager. And I'm Kara Klank. And together, we host That's Messed Up, a podcast where we recap Law & Order SVU, dig into the actual crimes and interview actors from the episode. like former SVU guest star Bradley Whitford. Often I would meet people who would assume that there was something

sort of Ted Bundy about me because of these sort of characters that I play. And we're celebrating our 300th episode in style with the one, the only, John Stamos. There's nobody better to play this character. I'm like, what is it?

He's a reproductive abuser and he tries to impregnate as many women. I'm like, really? I'm the guy like that? Okay, fine. Get the story behind the rip from the headline story on That's Messed Up. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to That's Messed Up on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dun-Dun!

Back to School is here and you know what that means. Dirty Rush is on. As campuses come back to life and Rush Week kicks into high gear, we're taking you inside the mysterious journey of a sorority girl from pledging to initiation and just about everything in between. Join me, Gia Judice, Daisy Kent, and Jen Fessler. Dirty Rush takes you deep inside Greek life. Let's get dirty. Listen to Dirty Rush on the IHRradio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.