An Army of Normal Folks - HIGHLIGHTS: The 4 Things Every Family Should Do Before Disaster Hits

Episode Date: September 22, 2026

It's not a matter of if a disaster hits your community. It's when. And when it does, the first person on the scene isn't first responders or government officials. It's your neighbor. Jeff Byard has spent 24 years in disaster response - from the Marine Corps to Alabama Emergency Management to FEMA. Then he left to go work with Team Rubicon - a volunteer lead disaster relief organization. In this episode, Jeff sits down with Bill to talk about what he learned from a career of showing up for people on their worst day - and what every one of us can do right now to be ready when our neighbors need us most. You'll walk away knowing how to prepare your family before disaster strikes, why your next-door neighbor is the most important first responder in any emergency, and how ordinary people are doing some of the most important disaster relief work in the country through Team Rubicon. ARMY ACTIONS Subscribe to the podcast and rate & review us! Signup to join the Army, visit NormalFolks.org Follow us on social media @ArmyofNormalFolks Join or start an ANF local service club at https://normalfolks.org/service-clubs/ Take The 10 Level Challenge, "the hero's journey for service" at 10LevelChallenge.org Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/#joinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Jeff is the chief program officer for Team Rubicon. What Team Rubicon is? This is a disaster relief nonprofit. It's started by veterans that now has more than 200,000 volunteers and has launched over 1,300 operations across the world. First, let's just talk about how Team Rubicon started because some veterans crossed a literal Rubicon. What was that? So it was the devastating earthquake in 2010 that hit Haiti. You know, you had 200,000 fatalities plus.

Jake Wood and some others who founded the organization, Jake's a Marine, and he knew that he had opportunities or skills that he could help. You know, so he organized, didn't really know the other eight, but they made their way to the Dominican Republic and then crossed over, and that was crossing the Rubicon and got with a father that was doing a Jesuit priest that was doing good work in Port of Prince and just went to work. And that's one of our cultural values came out of that. A lot of them did, but know your role.

And, you know, Jake always tells the story of, you know, he wasn't a medic, but he was mopping blood off the floor and doing whatever he could to help. And then realized, you know, early on that veterans have a unique skill set that really equates to disaster response from some of the austere environments that veterans go in. I'm myself, I'm a veteran, so I can relate to that. And some of the, you know, things that they've witnessed in their time and service, it's a different, different witness, right? It's more of helping than maybe, you know, what a combat Marine does in uniform. So the skill sets easily equate. And then from there, they realized they had something special. And his sister was actually very, very, very, you know,

very intrical, very much a part of the creation of Team Rubicon. She was creating a Facebook page and, you know, let Jake know, hey, you've got a lot of energy here, you know. Before we go on to the, you weren't in Haiti. I was not. No, I was not. But have you been? I've not been to Haiti.

All right. You know what's interesting to me about that particular incident is, I don't know if people know geographically, but if you look at the island, Haiti and the DR, Dominican Republic, are an island. And there's a very straight line that divides the two. And the Dominican Republic is a pretty successful republic. And Haiti divided by nothing more than a man's line driven, drawn across an island. And Haiti is a disaster.

And it's interesting to me that that earthquake, happened and while the DR had some problems, it was nothing like Haiti. And it was, it was, the Haitian infrastructure was horrific and it crumbled and it killed people all over the place. And it didn't, it didn't have in its resources, its own ability to care for its own people. And as it pertains to your story, what can we learn? from that in terms of a government's ability to help its own people in a disaster relief versus people's own ability to help people in a disaster relief situation. You know, my takeaway is that disasters don't care. They don't follow political lies.

I figured you're going to say that. Go. I love it. They don't care. And the flip side of that or the lesson out of that is put people first. You know, people care. People matter. You know, we've got systems. We've got the greatest response system in the world in the United States. But we still have flaws, right? And always put people first.

But when it comes to a disaster, and it reveals what's already a challenge in a community. If you have homelessness in the community before tornado comes through or before major earthquake like that, it doesn't go away. It just exacerbates the challenges that you already have in a community. So in my opinion, and what Team Rubicon does is, you know, think about it from what can you do daily that can prevent a worse catastrophe. What can you do if you've got homelessness, which we don't address homelessness, right? But we know that's in every community or many, many challenges. But I think the takeaway on that coach is disasters don't care what country it is. They don't care if you're a democracy, if you're not, if you're well-resourced, if you're not.

Now, obviously, in a country that's more well-resourced, it's better, you know, but a disaster of that magnitude is all hands on deck. Is there a disaster relief story that you've been part of or maybe not part of that's almost legendary with Team Rubicon, that you guys always talk about that one? You know, we have a couple. I mean, obviously the Haiti, you know, that's the the story. Hurricane Harvey is really where we blew up. Which one was Hurricane Harvey? Hurricane Harvey was in 2017 and it hit Houston. Houston. I'd forgotten about that. Yeah. So that year we had Harvey, Irma, and Maria, you know, all the three big storms. That was really big. So that one set a lot of records, if you will, for Team Rubicon. It really exploded the volunteer ranks and exploded some of our financial giving, which was good.

So it really let the organization expand. How many people do you think you had on the ground on Harvey? I would have to go back, Bill. I don't want to. We had a lot. I mean, it was our record, you know, record number of deployments, record deployers on the ground. You know, it was a big, big storm that we worked at for a long time. But in the disaster world, records are meant to be broken, as in everything else.

And then comes Helene. Helene, I had a big part of Helene, you know, a lead. help lead a team into Asheville. We were into Asheville. Funny story there. We tried to find somewhere to sleep and really good friend, good guys at the Asheville Fire Department. We met with them. They didn't really have room. So I asked the chief, you know, can we sleep in a parking lot? I don't think he thought we was really going to do that. And yeah, we popped tents in a parking lot and kind of showed our medal. And it went from there. But Helene was our benchmark now. And that's, you know, we had 300 gray shirts on the ground over.

300. 300. Over 10 different operations that stretched from Florida to North Carolina. Some of those, the operations in Georgia lasted 200 plus days. So, you know, really big storm. 200 days that you guys stayed on the ground? Yeah, that was probably. So we broke all the records from Harvey and Helene.

You know, we've had COVID was a. was a really, really big one that, you know, one that actually stands out that's not really caused by a natural disaster. We did, we stepped into the breach, if you will, when the, when we left Afghanistan and, you know, helped integrate 70,000 refugees, partners of the military from Afghanistan that came over. So we did a lot of logistical efforts on five different installations, you know, just doing our part. But that's one where, you know, we try to get to yes. I tell people our scope of work is how do we get to yes? And no is not something we like to say, so to speak. So that one, that one, you know, is a unique one because it wasn't caused by a natural

disaster. It was still a disaster. It was still a disaster. And now a few messages from our generous sponsors. But first, thanks for tuning into an army of normal folks, where our mission is to make service easier for all of us and together change the country. So today, I want to share with you an email received from Army member named Sarah March Banks, who lives in Manning, South Carolina. Sarah wrote, I recently retired and have time to do volunteer work, but I'm new to a small town and haven't found anything here that inspires me, like listening to the Army of Normal Folks, I've never heard an episode that did make me feel a nagging to do something.

Good. We're nagging now. But I get it. That's why I'm joining the 10-level challenge, which is the hero's journey for service, a journey that Army members can go on to deepen their service over time. Yeah, and we did a shop talk on the hero's journey. to 10-level challenge. And that's kind of where this comes from. And the idea is if you complete the challenge, you can't leave that challenge without both inspiration and even an inner calling

to get involved and do something to better a community and be part of the Army of normal folks whose ultimate goal is to change this country for the better. So thanks for emailing us. and I really do want to hear about what you do next, because I'm certain that after taking the 10-level challenge, you'll be inspired to. So you too can sign up for the 10-level challenge at 10-level challenge.org. We'll be right back.

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My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard account after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this. The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, And there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize him to strengthen that memory.

So he went into a good france. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examine the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Alex will get the date right by the time I finish this, I guarantee it. 19 something, like 12, 21, 30-something, I don't know. There was an earthquake in Memphis, and everybody knows about the San Andreas fault in California.

The worst fault in the United States runs right under Memphis. It's the New Madrid fault. You said it so you know it. Yeah. Well, in 19 something, the last time the New Madrid really had an opening, it was a massive earthquake. And north of here about an hour is a lake called Realfoot Lake. It's a big OXBO Lake. Well, it didn't exist prior to the earthquake. It opened up such a big crevice in the ground that the Mississippi River flowed backwards for 24 hours backfilling it. That's how big, the Mississippi, the largest river. It flew, it flowed north backfilling that massive crater created by this earthquake.

The New Madrid fault is no joke. 1812. When? 1812. 1812. I was off 100 years, but it was close. My first case was 1912. You weren't alive either way.

So it doesn't. Yeah. But the point is that's where we live. And we live on a bluff. it's clayace right we're not around a lot of rot here because we're in the delta and this thing's going to happen again one day and everybody lives other people live in tornado alley other people live in say you know everybody lives in a place that does have natural disaster risk what are the four things Lisa and I should be doing right now to prepare for that what are the

things maybe not for what are the things we should be doing so that in the event something like this happens, we can hang on until the Grasurer show up. Well, I think, yeah, New Madrid is one of the catastrophic planning scenarios, if you will. And I believe it actually rang the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia when it went off. I think that's one of the stories I heard about that. Wow. So you think about the scope of that, and it can impact, I believe, you know, five or six states, you know, can be impacted. And Memphis sits on the fall, dude.

I mean, yeah, if you're going to be in it, be in the middle of it, right? Yeah, that's right? So I think the first thing that I would say is, and you nailed it, you realize that you, what the risk is, right? How many Memphis, how many folks here know about that? How many schools, you know, maybe exercise, hey, if we see here shaking, we need to get, you know, what's our shape drill, you know, do we get in the doorway, do we get under the desk? What do we do? How many times have you exercised that? So I think first and foremost is know the hazards, know the risk of where you live, you know.

Second of that is, and it sounds simple, right? But, you know, if you had to leave right now, do you have what you need? Are you on medication? Do you have a backpack? Do you have a plan? A go bag. A go bag, right. My kids are probably similar years.

You know, our youngest is a junior in high school. So they're throughout, right? I've got one in college in Mobile. You know, how do I communicate with them? Do they know where to go, you know? That is interesting. That ones I've never thought of. Yeah.

If communications down, where do we meet up? Where do we meet up? You know, kind of think, think in terms of, you know, everything's, you know, I've got everything as you do. You know, I can pull out my little mini computer and it does anything I want, you know, from banking to calling. to, you know, what are you going to do if that's not there? You know, so, simple things.

You know, hey, we're all going to meet if we can. I want everybody to meet in Knoxville. I'm just using that. I'm Alabama fan, so I wouldn't meet Knoxville. Maybe Chattanooga, you know what I mean? So I'm sure. You can meet Knoxville, Mississippi. It's a lovely place.

So, you know, I mean, it's things, you know, have a plan. It goes back to your neighborhood. But, you know, who lives around you, Bill? Is there an elderly person that may not have anybody? And, you know, she's the nicest person in the neighborhood. But we kind of start thinking about ourselves and how we're going to get out. Who's checking on her? You know, who's saying, hey, you know, Ms. So-and-so-Mitch Johnson, I need you to jump in the car with us.

We've got to get out of here, you know. So know your risk. Have a basic plan. Understand that no plan is successful. Every plan has to be changed. You know, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. That's the military term. No plant survives first contact with New Madrid.

But without a plan, you're already lost. So, you know, have a plan that you can riff off of. Is it smart to have water and, like, dry goods for a week, or is that, like, too much stuff? You know, that's kind of the standard playbook. What I always say is if you need that, right, I'd rather you have $500 that you could evacuate the area where there is water, where there is food, where there is electricity. and then come back in when it's safe. But, you know, the old adage of, you know, have tons of water and tons of food, Bill, the challenge with that is, is, you know, I don't want to make assumptions,

but probably all of us in this room could afford to have that. But those that really are vulnerable, are you going to pay rent? Are you going to buy two weeks of water and keep it in your closet? You're going to pay rent. So you're not going to have that. So I'd rather you have a little bit of an emergency fund that you can get you and your family to a safe area while. That's interesting. An emergency fund, a go-pack, and a great-upon place to everybody that you love knows to meet if you've got to get the L out of Dodge. Exactly.

And know who's around you who might need extra help. Yep. Well, actually, really, really smart advice. Yeah. And I have none of them. So I'm going to fix all that. I don't have a go bag. You got the cash.

I do have cash. I do not. I've never discussed. with my family where we'd meet up with something where it happened. Gibson's done us. And that's smart. I'd never even considered that. Well,

well, well, look, Lease is going to think I'm a weirdo when I come home tonight and start talking about all this. Because you and most of us don't have that. That's the challenge, right?

Most people don't have that simple plan, you know. And it is simple. And I do think about, because when Katrina happened, man, people got Houston got a lot of Katrina folks

Jackson, Mississippi got a lot of Katrina folks, but we got a lot of Katrina folks in Memphis. And in fact, there are still a lot of people living in Memphis today that were former New Orleans residents that came here and either didn't have someone to go back to or just settled here and didn't go back.

In fact, one of two chefs in town that have some of the greatest restaurants New Orleans transplants from that. Yeah. I do remember so many of these folks in Memphis and shelters had no clue where sisters and brothers and cousins were and spent months trying to reconnect. And they were healthy and happy and fine in places like Houston and Birmingham and Jackson, but nobody knew.

So I think it's, I think that really is a really poignant piece of advice. Again, Lisa is kind of like, do you know something? I don't know. Something about to happen. No, honey. This is just outs a prevention. Well, I tell you this. You know, I get to ask, especially when we get into May and June, you know, hey,

as team Rubikana, I used to do it when I was on the government. Are we ready for hurricane season? You're ready for hurricane season? And I always say, hey, every day's earthquake season. We better to be ready for hurricane season. We can see those coming. But every day's earthquake season, you don't know. It's true.

Earlier, you said the first two responders, your next-door neighbors. I've never thought about that. But it's absolutely true. I mean, the first person they can get to you is the guy next door to you, not the police, the fire, or, you know, with the right cost, and certainly not you guys. I mean, you guys are going to do your work, but it's going to take you a few days anyway to mogulahs, right?

What do we need to take from that in terms of the way we approach one another in our homes? You know, we are, Jeff Byard opinion, right? I don't, probably not science behind it. It may be some science behind it, We are in our own little cocoons all the time, right? It's so true. You know, we don't know what's going on around us. I think we're in our own bubbles too much.

We've got to get out of our bubble, you know. We've lost the art of connection through conversation. We've gotten to a me mentality and not a we mentality, and I think that's a challenge. Trying to walk my Christian faith in a journey that's rocky sometimes. But I told my daughters the other day, you know, I've got four daughters, so they don't forget anything, right? They can be a grudge 20 years ago. And they, you know, I'm like, what are you?

Anyways, I said, you know, if you would just focus on meeting somebody else's needs, everybody's needs would always be met. You know, and that's such a good point, you know. And I feel of that, right? I don't want to come across like I'm perfect at that. But I think that that goes, that lesson. that can be applied to any aspect of life, and we'll all be better. Is there any that you personally been associated with that things happen that you're just like, I am so freaking proud of this organization and be part of it, that you can kind of point to?

You know, this is going to sound kind of like, oh, okay, standard answer. But it's, you know, I have a saying that I do on a lot of interviews, It's a great day to be a gray shirt, you know, and it's what I like. There's a million things I like about Team Rubicon and the ones, the big ones we see that. But we also focus on what we call low attention disasters. And those are the disasters where there's no cameras. A lot of times FEMA's not there. Didn't meet whatever threshold.

And, you know, I tell the team and I've told my teams, you know, everywhere I've worked. One, we don't compare disasters on the disaster. What I mean by that is, if Bill, if your house is destroyed, that's your Katrina. It doesn't matter, you know, it's, it's your Katrina, and we need to treat it as such. So I always get proud when we're in, you know, really the low attention disasters. And our mission... No cameras, no pressure, but you're still working just as hard. And because it matters, right?

Again, I go back to, I think something that I said, if I didn't, it's on me that, you know, we're in this, this whole business, the disaster response business, it's always just people business. It's the people, we're in the people business. It doesn't matter process and radio systems and trucks. All that's great. It helps us. But if we don't have the people first mentality, it's not going to work. We'll be right back. The music you love. Your favorite radio stations, everywhere you go, the podcasts everyone's talking about, all in one place, and it's free. I heart radio. Whatever you want to hear. Listen anytime, anywhere.

Music, radio, no subscription. Always free. Grab the free app. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard a count after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this.

The more I kept reading this stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. will hypnotize him to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good france. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examine the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've got to ask this question the right way.

every job you do revolves around throwing up for people on if not their worst day, certainly one of their worst days. How has that shaped how you see our society and our country? It's hopeful. It's hopeful and scary. You know, disasters, Bill, they do two things. They bring out the best in people, which you see that. and they also bring out the worst in people. When you see contractors that are scamming, you know, folks

and not showing back up and just hunting that dollar, you know, I think that there's a special place for those individuals. Yeah, I'd have to have to. This happened to me, Bill, with the Winterstorm Fern. You know, what? This happened to me in Oxford when the ice storm hit. Yeah. And these guys showed up.

I just said, like, a couple tree issues, like, landed on my porch. And they show up saying, like, it'll be, like, $4,000. I'm like, guys, I think this is like 15 minutes at work. I'm like, I'll pay you like $300. And they're like, fine, we'll do it for her for $300. Right. You see, you know, people that are, and we, you know, we focus on those that are really vulnerable. So you've got a vulnerable population before something hits.

There's vulnerable anyway. Yeah, they're vulnerable and they're going to be more. And then you have individuals that are praying on that vulnerability. I just don't have, you know, that's where I got to work again on my faith. You know, I love everybody. I struggle with that one, I'll be honest with you. But the flip side of that is you see the hope, you see the good. You see 30 individuals or more gray shirts and not just Team Rubicon, right?

We, you know, we may have 10 things just in the general terms that a disaster survivor needs, or they may need 100 things. Team Rubicon may bring 10 of those. So, you know, we want a partner. Hey, if you can help come with us, you know, let's hitch our wagons together and we'll do more good. But you see organizations, then you see the organic organizations that form at the local level. And that's where that hope comes in. And, you know, because the challenge, the response is a response that people are going to see that.

But the recovery takes years. It's a marathon. And the cameras are going to leave. They're still doing an Altadena right now. Still doing it in Katrina. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. You talk about organic local level heroes and all that. I can't help but think about the few stories I've seen it. I'm certain there's a lot more than I've seen of the guy that's on a fire truck putting out fires in Altadino when his house is two blocks over, burning down, or the police officer who's out helping tornado victims when he can't even get in touch to this family. And he's not sure if his house. is still standing, but they're still out there serving. And that kind of stuff is what gives me enormous hope.

And it happens a lot. One of the things that, and it's not in everyone, it's, you know, it depends on the disaster. But I know we did it and go back to Hurricane Lorre and Lake Charles got hit really bad, you know, just a really, it's a category four storm, major storm, a lot of wind, a lot of water. Their emergency operations center was going at it. Their first responders have been going at it. We actually got a list from them, and we would go out and just check on lease and fire. Hey, your house is good.

Or, I mean, you might need to kind of go check on it. You got some damage or this, that, or the other. Because they don't. That's cool. They don't come off the line. They don't come off the line. They don't come off the line. And, you know, and you see that.

That's that. That's where you say, okay, you know, it looks really bad in society. And, you know, we hear all this, it's just crazy noise out there. but when you see that, you're like, all right. Humanity is still intact. We're still good. We're still good. Honestly, this is kind of a side note.

There's this new study that came out. I read about a month ago that said colleges are starting to get really worried because their enrollment's going down because people are deciding, you know, graduating in four years with $90,000 in student debt and a $40,000 your social work job is probably not a good plan. and people are starting to, I hope that means people are starting to go back to some trades. But for now, there is this massive, every year we retire thousands of people that are skilled in trades. And every year we do not replace them or have not been. I got to believe that that even makes disaster relief that much more difficult, especially the rebuild part.

Like you said, they're still rebuilding from Katrina. What is team Rubicon doing and what are you building to combat that shortage? Because I think this is really cool. I have to admit, it is really cool. And we're known for our disaster response, and that's what we're going to be known for. That's kind of what I say. That's what our 200,000 sign up to do. That's the camp firing the beer and what you started on.

That's it. And we'll do that. You know, we're also more than that. We have a workforce development program that's, I'd say in its infancy, but it's growing. And we have a- Is it for possibly young veterans or for- It's actually open. You know, we didn't-

But do you have some young veterans from a minute? Because that really makes a sh-h-and-a-since to me. It does. It does. And they're definitely open to that. And we thought about, you know, as we grow that program, there could be opportunities where we partner more with some of the, feels like that could be a natural progression one day.

You know, some of the existing kind of transitional services out there. But again, it goes back to, you know, how can we better an individual's life? And we have a brick and mortar academy down in New Orleans. That's where our first academy is. How ironic. Yeah. It's in Kenner. And we partnered with the Home Builders Institute, which has been doing this.

So, but it's, we've taken that, that facility over. And right now we're focused on fortified roofing. And the thought behind that is... Fortified roof. Fortified roofing, not just roofing, but how do we get fortified roofs on house? If you can get most times the challenge of your house and Bill, you know this better than me, you know, roofs are kind of on a house due to gravity, not much else, you know. It's true.

Once a little bit... And uplift us a bit on a roof. And it's done, you know. So if you can keep the roof. on a house, chances are you'll keep the house in most situations. Now, you're getting into F4, F5, tornadoes, there's not much, you know, unless it's a concrete bunker and there's not much you're going to be able to do. But then if you can keep the roof on the house, you keep the house intact, you keep the

disaster survivor in the house. There would be some repairs, but there's not going to be major repairs. So how do we increase that gap? And I've been involved in that. We've got a great vice president team that really knows that size. out of it. But I go down, I'll meet with the students, I'll go to the graduations. And the difference is where you may be helping a lot in a big disaster, you know, these are really individualized impacts, and that matters. But you're literally changing the trajectory or giving

them, you know, I tell folks, we don't change anything. We give opportunities. People still got to step into the arena, right? You can get the certificate, but then if you don't do anything, I can't force you to do that, you know. But we do give opportunities for people to fundamentally change their lives. And I'm excited about that. I think that there's an opportunity there, not just in you alone, but as we continue to expand that program more and more, we're actually going to start a second course of study starting this month in resilient power, focused around generators and power repair.

How do we continue to build resiliency? If you can keep the power on, it's really not a disaster. If you can keep the power on, it's really not a disaster. I mean, you think about it. If we can keep the power on, it's band, double that with keeping a roof on the house. It's a challenge, but it's not a disaster. You see, you know, disasters are a lot of time measured by how long the power was out.

I mean, you talk about Fern, you know, the power out. So power is key, you know, a disaster that wasn't Teen Rubicon. related, but I always tell people it's the hardest disaster I ever worked that we didn't lose power was 2010 the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. But we had power. It's still a disaster. You know, it's interesting. I mean, you've gone from response to now response and prevention. In one way you're working yourself out of a job, hopefully. That would be awesome. How can an army of normal folks get involved with Team RoopCon? Oh, you know, go to our website, team Rubicon, USA.org, is an easy way to do that.

It's, it can, you know, and we, we ask people to get involved in many ways. One, you know, your time is your most valuable asset. And I was telling Alex, you know, volunteerism, volunteering is a privilege. And, you know, not everybody can do that. You can't just leave work and do that. But you can still be on the team, you know, there'll be a time when that will open up. There'll be a time when you'll have the opportunity. The other way to support us is we do a lot of amazing things, but everything we do takes a dollar.

You know, there is a business side of this. There is a financial side of this. So, you know, if you can't give us your time, give us some of your other treasure. And I guarantee we'll put that to impact. What an incredible story. Thanks for coming up and sharing it. I'm glad you got a slab of ribs for your time. Oh, it was nice. Thank you. And really, really appreciate you being here. Thank you for having us.

Really, thank you so much. It was great. And thank you for joining us this week. If Jeff Byrd has inspired you in general or better yet to take action by becoming a gray shirt with team Rubicon, donating to them, getting prepared before disaster strikes in the first place, or something else entirely. Let me know about it. I really do want to hear about it. you can write me anytime at bill at normalfolks.org and I will respond. If you enjoyed this episode, share it, share our friends, share it on social, tell folks about us,

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In 1986, a man named Scott Macklam was killed in broad daylight. Police quickly found their suspect. Prosecutors convicted him. But now, almost 40 years later, I'm re-examining this case. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Has the wrong man been in prison this whole time?

Listen to Examine the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.