An Army of Normal Folks - How One Person Can Fix a Broken Justice System (Pt 1)

Episode Date: March 10, 2026

After helping free his childhood friend who spent 18 years in prison for a crime he didn’t commit, Georgetown professor Mark Howard couldn’t return to his normal life. Instead, he built programs that have exonerated 13 innocent people, educated 250 incarcerated people, helped 150 people return to society, and have brought to normal folks into 30 prisons across the country. This powerful conversation challenges us to rethink justice, redemption, and the role each of us can play in bringing light into broken systems.Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/#joinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

While important and I'm proud of that work, it was unsatisfying because I wanted to do something with a greater impact. And that coincided with some changes in my life that involved my childhood friend who had been wrongfully convicted of double murder, where I basically rededicated my life to helping him get free. And that took me into this completely different space and different world. I started visiting him, and I made a number of visits to him in prison. And during one of those visits, I was just so overwhelmed by just the... the injustice, the fact that he was going back to a cage while I was going back to freedom in my life. And I said, you know, I'm going to do everything I can to help get you out of prison, whatever

it takes. I'm even going to go to law school. But I was devoting so much of my life to helping Marty that I was like, I just have to do more. Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm an entrepreneur. And I'm a football coach in inner city Memphis, and that last part unintentionally led to an Oscar for the film about one of my teams. It's called undefeated. I believe our country's problems are never going to be solved by a bunch of fancy people in ice suits using big words on CNN and Fox that nobody really ever uses, but rather by an army of normal folks. Guys, that's us, just you and me deciding, hey, I can help.

That's what Mark Howard, the voice you just heard, has done. Mark couldn't go back to his normal life after helping Marty get his life back. So he got a new life, starting programs that have exonerated 13 innocent people, educating 250 guilty people in prisons, and supporting 150 people reentering our society and challenging us all to rethink. think what justice really does mean and to think about what's unique about our own story that can bring special light to where there's profound darkness. I genuinely cannot wait for you to meet Mark right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Next Monday, our 2026 IHeard podcast awards

are happening live at South by Southwest. This is the biggest night in podcasting. We'll honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative talent and creators in the industry. And the winner is... Creativity, knowledge, and passion will all be on full display. Thank you so much. IHeart Radio. Thank you to all the other nominees.

You guys are awesome. Watch live next Monday at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific free at Veeps.com or the Veeps app. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific. child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain.

A nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, doubt the case of Lucy Lettby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it. To ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Lettby. be was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level

of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun. Tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Tremaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Germain was sentenced to 99 years.

I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only 2. Two people knew the truth until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Segregation and the day integration at night.

When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules. We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world. Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it. You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here.

Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Pond. and visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now, listen to Charlie's Place on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Dirty Rush, the truth about sorority life,

the good, the bad, and the sisterhood with your host, me, Gia Judice, Daisy Kent, and Jennifer Fessler. Rush, the recruitment, the ritual, the reality of Greek life has been a mystery for those outside the source. sorority circles until now. Is it really a supportive sisterhood that's simply misunderstood? Or is there something more scandalous happening on campuses across the country? In this podcast, we pledged to peel back the layers and spell the truth one Greek letter at a time. Pledges and active, rush chairs and ritual keepers. Some call it the best time of their life, while others say it's a nightmare.

From a perfect rush to recruitment scandals. What is really going on behind the doors of those sorority houses from Alpha to Omega? We're taking you inside sorority row, including the chapter room as we explore the fellowship and the frenemies. Let's get dirty. Listen to Dirty Rush on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Mark Howard from Washington, D.C., the founding director of the Prisons and Justice Initiative at Georgetown University and the founder of the Frederick Douglass Project of Justice. My God, that's a lot of words. Thanks for being here.

Great to be here, Bill. Just flew in this morning from, did you fly out from D.C.? I know you, like, live in airplanes. That's right. Yeah, just got in straight into the studio. Fly out tonight? Flying out tonight. Where you headed?

Back to D.C. tonight and then to L.A. Friday, to Nevada Monday, to Houston next Wednesday. Well, we're lucky to have been able to. It's going to prisons everywhere. Lucky to have been able to fit you in and bring you to Memphis. I appreciate the time. Everybody, precursor to this, I'm stoked about this conversation. It's something that I've always had an interest in that I haven't fully formed all of my personal feelings and thoughts about. And I think as this interview goes on, many of our listeners may find themselves in the same place.

And I think Mark here to discuss the work he's done is really important and inspirational. But also on this one, really informative. and maybe help each of us in our lay terms grasp a little better how we as Americans feel about criminal justice, criminal justice reform, crime, recidivism, and all of those things. So, Mark, I can't wait to talk to you about this stuff. So you're a political science professor by trade, and that all changed. Tell us about that. Yeah, I mean, so it's a long story, and I'll give a short version of it.

We got time. My initial training after getting an undergraduate degree was, and after spending a year in Berlin, studying political science, then I went on and got a PhD at UC Berkeley in political science. You're clearly a dump. Well, you know. A lot of gray matter going on up there. Yeah, I'm not sure how useful all of it is, but now I've definitely found my passion. But so initially I went on the academic job market, a few different positions, and landed at Georgetown University where I've been teaching now for over 20 years. And that was initially in the government department, which is political science as a field.

And that's what I taught and did research in and got promoted and got tenure, became a full professor, the highest sort of rank you can get as a professor as an academic. But I also had this side story that I'm sure we'll get into in depth that was a personal connection that brought me into the criminal justice system. That made me realize how much injustice there is and led me to completely change my life in the sense of not leaving necessarily my old position, but changing everything that I do in the direction of criminal justice reform. My PhD was in basically European comparative politics. I focused on countries in Europe. In comparative politics. That's neat. Yeah.

So this is just curious. I mean, does that mean what it sounds like is that you're looking at different forms of government in Europe comparing the way Turkey or Greece operates government versus way France says? Yeah, I mean, some of my teaching was broadly about all different sets of countries, even around the world, but especially focusing on Europe. But then I did my own research and writing and wrote two books that deal with different specific issues within Europe. So one was on civil society and democratization in post-communist countries in the transition of democracy in the 1990s. Another one in the 2000s was focusing on citizenship and immigration in Western Europe, how different countries integrate immigrants.

But it was very academic in focus. And while those books, they did well, and each of them won at several awards in terms of little political science. you know, recognition, they were very specialized. And to me, that while important and I'm proud of that work, it was unsatisfying because I wanted to do something with a greater impact that more people would pay attention to. And that coincided with some changes in my life that involved my childhood friend who had been wrongfully convicted of double murder, where I basically rededicated my life to helping him get free. And that took me into this completely different space and different world.

I'm going for memory here. That's Marty. Marty Tankcliffe. Okay. It is, first of all, that background I actually think has tentacles into what you do now. Because I think what you do now, you have to understand government.

You have to understand assimilation, even if it's assimilation can be a very broad word, but I think assimilation is assimilation. So I think all of that is important. I think it's interesting. that you've spent a PhD in all this time studying and writing about European society, because I think European society gives us a good reflector as it pertains to the work that you do now in our American society. So I think all of that makes sense.

Yeah. But I don't think any of it really starts. The passion can't really start without your personal connection to Marty. And I don't think we can go forward in this interview without everybody understanding that story. That's exactly right. Right. To me, the story of Marty Tankcliffe is central to everything I do. It certainly is the hook in terms of the transformation that I went through professionally and still is very central to what I do, organizationally, the activities that I'm involved in, the cases that I work on. Marty and I work together side by side very closely still to the current day. So let me give that story if you're ready for it. I am.

So I should give the backstory. Marty and I were born nine days apart in the same location on Long Island, New York. We went to the same preschool, school called Lovey Dovee, preschool. Lovy Dovee. Yeah. Who named that? Good grief. Go ahead.

And then we went on to elementary school, middle school, high school, again, in Port Jefferson, New York on North Shore of Long Island and Suffolk County. And then on the first day of our senior year of high school, we just turned 17. So we're both late August birthdays, nine days apart. Marty woke up on that day and imagine just the excitement of going to school as a senior, the first day. I mean, you've been through it yourself with your kids. I mean, it's such a big day. Well, Marty woke up to a brutal crime scene in his own house, found his parents' bodies murdered,

slaughtered, you could say, viciously murdered. and his mother stabbed over 50 times almost decapitated. His father still cling to life but never came out of a coma and died a few days later. And as if that wasn't the worst thing that could happen to a 17-year-old kid to be orphaned and to find that crime scene, that night he was in handcuffs charged with killing his parents. And the next summer he was convicted and sentenced to 50 years to life for the murder of his parents. Now, I was his friend and for, and I actually went to the scene that day. day because I had driver's ed and the driver's ed teacher took us out in a car for the first day and

we'd heard we'd heard something happened and we drove by the house and saw police tape everywhere as a completely crazy scene but then I also was investigating it as the editor of our high school newspaper called the purple parrot so there's another name for you lovey-dovey and the purple parrot good grief and they both seem like they belong in key west but go ahead well I'm proud of what we did in the Purple Parrot, because while Marty's case got so much coverage from every New York newspaper, media outlet, only the Purple Parrot got the story right, which is that Marty was innocent. And I found a lot of evidence that showed that his father's business partner had all these shady dealings and owed his father money, and then he later staged his own death and disappearance and was

found weeks later in California having changed his appearance. It was never considered a suspect. They focused on Marty. They fixated on Marty. Can you tell me. They railroaded Marty. Why they fixated on Morty? Well, there's strong likelihood that there was the head of homicide was paid by the business partner to frame Marty. Oh, wow. And at the time, it was a very corrupt police department. Still is from everything I hear. The most recent sheriff actually ended up getting sentenced to prison and the DA. That would indicate corruption. Yeah. Yeah. They had a, at times, a mid-90% confession rate in murders, which is to say they basically beat or psychologically tortured confessions out of people, which is what happened in Marty's case.

Although his confession wasn't an actual confession, it was a hypothetical. They convinced them as, remember, a 17-year-old kid that, you know, just witnessed this trauma. They convinced him that he had done it and blacked out in his memory of it. So they lied and manipulated him to say they had evidence. Where's an attorney for him? No attorney present. wasn't Mirandize. I mean, it's insane.

It's a constitutional violation day in and today. Well, this is what we'll get into. This is, you know, the American criminal legal system has these beautiful ideals as they're written down, but not as they're carried out in practice. And Marty was a textbook example of that injustice. And he ended up being railroaded, sentenced to 50 years to life. And so our lives went in completely different directions. Marty likes to say, Mark went to Yale.

I went to jail. very different, you know, life courses at that point. And now a few messages from our general sponsors, but first, you guys got to hear this, okay? This is real opportunity. Our six local service clubs are now battling one another through April 8th to see which of them can recruit the most members to their giving circle of just $10 a month and up. And the winner of this thing is going to get a 25. thousand dollar grant from staying together. If you live in Memphis, Oxford, Atlanta, Wichita, Northern Duchess County, or Ozaki County, join your giving circle today by visiting

normalfolks.us.us backslash service clubs. Normalfolks.us backslash service clubs and just click on your club. And again, guys, the club that raised the most money against most people, the most of the giving circle, staying together is going to grant that club 25K to go do something good in your community. I can't imagine why you guys wouldn't do that. It's free stuff.

We'll be right back. Next Monday, our 2026 IHeart podcast awards are happening live at South by Southwest. Since the biggest night in podcasting. We'll honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative talent and creators in the industry. And the winner is...

Creativity, knowledge, and passion will all be on full display. Thank you so much. IHeart Radio. Thank you to all the other nominees. You guys are awesome. Watch live next Monday at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific free at veeps.com or the Veeps app.

In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain. A nurse named Lucy Letby.

Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, doubt the case of Lucy Lettby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it. To ask what really happened when the world, decided who Lucy Lettby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt.

It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Lettby on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpbright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun. Tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Termaine Hudson as the perpetrator.

Termaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people. knew the truth until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Segregation and the day integration at night. When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules. We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping on another world. Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together, but not everyone was happy about it. You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were dressed up in their uniform.

The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. From Atlas Obscura, Rococo, punch and visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie's place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now, listen to Charlie's Place on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Dirty Rush, the truth about sorority life, the good, the bad, and the sisterhood.

With your host, me, Gia Judice, Daisy Kent, and Jennifer Fessler. Rush, the recruitment, the ritual, the reality of Greek life has been a mystery for those out the sorority circles until now. Is it really a supportive sisterhood that's simply misunderstood? Or is there something more scandalous happening on campuses across the country? In this podcast, we pledge to peel back the layers and spell it the truth one Greek letter at a time. Pledges and active rush chairs and ritual keepers.

Some call it the best time of their life, while others say it's a nightmare. From a perfect rush to recruitment scandals. What is really going on behind the doors of those sorority houses from Alpha to Oman? We're taking you inside sorority row, including the chapter room, as we explore the fellowship and the frenemies. Let's get dirty. Listen to Dirty Rush on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Was Morty a good student? Good kid, bowed. Yeah, he was. No problems in his past. Yeah, no problems whatsoever. No criminal record, not even anything close. I mean, Marty was a kid who got into, you know, absolutely no trouble at all. And so this was why it was so shocking

and why the whole process that unfolded, I think, just made no sense to anybody who knew him. Now, I should say, you may know and a lot of listeners will know about the Menendez brothers, who actually did kill their parents, and it was around the same time. And Marty, I think, got swept up into that sentiment.

That really was about the same time period when that happened. Their crime happened after his, but his trial, was taking place in the middle of all the evidence, making it clear that they had killed their parents. So he kind of gets swept in with that, which is like, oh, rich, spoiled kid kills parents for money. That was the narrative.

There's absolutely no evidence to back that up. The wealth wasn't nearly on the scale of the Menendez family, by the way. But it became something that people believe because the prosecution chose that narrative, picked their suspect, honed in on him, and then sunk their teeth into him, and wouldn't release him no matter what countervailing evidence came to light. How long did he spend in jail?

He spent almost 18 years, 6,338 days and nights. 18 years of his life stone. So I'm sorry, keep going. Yeah, so our lives went in different directions. You know, this was pre-internet. This was hard to stay in touch with somebody, especially in prison. And so I moved on with my life. And there's a part of me that's, you know, sad or even a little ashamed, like I wish I'd done more at the time.

But, you know, I was also a 17, 18 year old kid. And I went to college and, you know, started my own life in a way as a young adult. But I would always tell people, I have a friend in prison who's innocent. And at first they would say, you know, come on, that can't happen. I mean, if you go back in time and think to our childhood that we were taught, this is the greatest criminal justice system in the world. There's innocent until proven guilty. There's a jury of your peers. there's 12 people, there's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

If it's in the newspaper, it's true. Right, exactly. What authority figures say is true. Even trusting the police in many communities is something that we were taught to believe in. Well, all of that has come undone. Since then, there's been The Innocence Project and other organizations, and Marty and I have also created one called Making an Exonerie, where we have found, and it's become clear,

that there's a lot of misconduct. There's a lot of mistakes or abuse of power that takes place. I learned it through Marty's case, through the case just of me as a person, as a kid, really, saying, I think my friend just got railroaded and there's been a tremendous injustice. What can I do about it? Well, initially, it was in the Purple Parrot, and I did what I could. And unfortunately, you know, people didn't listen to the Purple Parrot. They listened to Newsday in the New York Times and court TV and whatnot that. had this prosecutor-driven narrative that he was guilty.

Over time, you know, we lost touch, but he still stayed in the present of my mind. I would talk about him. I would tell people the story. I would somehow, like, take over, like, a dinner party or a gathering if people really wanted to know, like, what about this? And then I'm the business partner. And, you know, I could lay out the whole story.

But then something in me called out to me to reach out to him. And so we started writing letters. And I have several shoeboxes of letters back and forth in prison. We started talking on the phone. I started visiting him. And I made a number of visits to him in prison. And during one of those visits, I was just so overwhelmed by just the injustice, the fact that he was going back to a cage while I was going back to freedom in my life.

And I said, you know, I'm going to do everything I can to help get you out of prison, whatever it takes. I'm even going to go to law school. Now, I was already a Georgetown professor at that point. But I was devoting so much of my life to helping Marty that I was like, I just have to do more. And it turns out that at Georgetown you can actually get a law degree for free as a professor. No one had ever done it before. I don't think. No one's stupid enough to do that.

You know what? A free law degree from Georgetown sounds like a pretty nice project. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I made the plan that I was going to go to law school with the goal of getting my childhood friend out of prison. Just before I started, he was exonerated. And I played a role in that. I'd written a brief on behalf of our high school classmates.

It was actually cited in the appellate court's ruling that freed him. I played a role. There were a lot of other people. There's a private investigator. There are lawyers. It's a big team effort. It takes a village to help get someone exonerated. So Marty walked out.

And I was there. I actually had arrived in France five days earlier and found out he was getting out. I flew right back to be there and walk him out of prison. And a lot of people who knew my story and knew how obsessed I was with helping Marty get free, he said, okay, Mark, now you can get back to your old life. You can be done with this mission. It's a mission accomplished. But the way I think of it is that my eyes, through Marty's case, my eyes were opened to injustice,

and I just couldn't close them again. I couldn't be like, oh, Marty's out, now everything's fine. because through his case, I learned about so much injustice, corruption, incompetence, abuse of power, misconduct, and it just made me want to go deeper. So I went ahead and went to law school while being a full-time professor was a full-time law student. That's a whole other crazy story. As I hear Marty's story, there's a couple questions that I don't have answered that I'm just dying to know that if I'm listening to this story right now are listeners. Yeah. One, how did he get exonerated?

What evidence, you know, how did that work? And I think that's really important as we go deeper into the story to understand kind of systematically how that can work. But with regard to Marty how to work. On a human level, I am really interested in how Marty knowing he was innocent, and having to live for a decade and a half surrounded by many people who weren't in an atmosphere that can be very dangerous itself how he didn't just give up how and how angry he must have felt and then the last part and you can answer these in anywhere you want to did did the jacklegs that put them there pay for what they did. Well, let me go maybe in chronological order.

However you want to do. Those are great questions, first off. So in terms of how he survived in prison, basically. You know, he went in as a kid, 140 pounds. White kid from Long Island. Yeah, right. Going to a tough upstate New York. One thing does not look like the rest.

He got good advice as he started. from kind of an older mentor you could say in prison who said two things. One, put some muscle on your body. Work out. Get, you know, you got to be able to protect yourself and stand up for yourself. Two, more importantly, if you really are innocent, get your ass to the law library. And so Marty ended up going to law library every single day. And he worked there as a clerk.

He was paid, I believe it was about $7.50 a week for 40 hours. of work in the law library. That's what prison wages are. And I hope we'll get into some of that about the abuse of humanity that takes place in prisons. But people work and they get paid about 10 to 20 cents an hour. So Marty worked in the law library, he worked on his case, but he also helped other people. So if you think about it, you got people coming in looking for help on their cases. They might be bloods, crips, you know, Hispanic gangs, Aryan nation. There's like 50 gangs and there can be lot of, you know, violence and danger in there, Marty became untouchable because he was helping everybody. So in a way, he was protected by the legal skills that he had and that he was

developing and working on. So he got to stay out of the politics. For everybody listening, when you hear prison politics, politics is a prison term for referring to the races. Exactly. So the politics of a prison are the whites with the whites. the blacks with the blacks, the Spanics with Hispanics, and many times inside each of those races, the gangs within those races, but in prison terms, that's called politics. That's right.

Yeah, politics is a code word for race, effectively when people in prison. He was able to stay out of it because he was equal opportunity, jailhouse lawyer. It absolutely does start. Now, he also was for most of his 17-5 years in something called Honor Block, because his case was high profile,

and because he had no disciplinary record in prison, he was able to be in a place that was less violent. And so Honor Block, as it's called in New York prisons, and there's different names for it in other prisons, but it's like an incentive pod or something that you can earn through your good behavior, but also perhaps through your name recognition in order to sort of avoid being a target.

Man, that's great. But he was still in jail for not having done anything. Yeah. So how'd he deal with that? He was in the same unit on the same tier as Tupac Shakur, the rapper, for a little bit while he was, Tupac was in New York prison. So they played, I think they played handball or basketball or something together. That's crazy. But so Marty worked in the law library, helped other people, kept him safe.

He also lifted some weights, put some muscle on. So he was safe. He was okay. Prison was not the dangerous horror show that it often is for people. for him. But what he also did, and this is what's incredible, and gets into the question about like optimism versus bitterness and whatnot, is that he worked 24-7 on his case. He was his leading, his own leading advocate. He wrote 50,000 letters from prison over 17 and a half years, and I've calculated that comes to nine letters a day, including Sundays. He wrote to everyone he could

think of who might in any way be able to help or connect him in any way. He wrote to media personalities. He wrote to retired judges. He wrote to experts in different areas of criminal law. Many of them probably never opened his letters. Most of them never responded. But he was able to build up a group of supporters. He was able to bring on lawyers and law firms pro bono. He had this unbelievable array of top-notch lawyers pro bono, including the firm Baker-Bots that had a whole office that was just the Marty War Room, basically, that was just, you know, should have been for an associate. Space is valuable in these law firms, but it was literally just for his case and full of files

and boxes and people would be going in there and checking stuff out like it was a library in the law firm. Baker Botts probably spent over $2 million just, and that's back in, you know, a few decades ago, big money on his case. So he was his own leading advocate. He got people, he made people want to help him. And that included me. You know, when I first reached out to him, I didn't know who I was going to see at that point.

It had been a lot of, you know, a lot of time. He'd been in prison. Like, I didn't really know. He was amazing. He was someone who was so positive and optimistic. He stayed in touch with society. He used to get the New York Times delivered by mail, and it would come a day late. And he was following, you know, politics, the world, cooking.

He would be, like, looking up recipes. He would cut out recipes from the newspaper and send it to people. He would, like, read restaurant reviews and be like, oh, you should check out. this new restaurant, I heard it's really good. You know what I mean? He stayed connected. And the way he puts it is that I never lived in prison. I just resided there. And his life, he was always preparing for one day being free. He always said, it's a matter of time. I know one day the truth is going to come out. And so he didn't know it was going to take 18 years. And there was a close call like five years in where he almost got out and should have gotten out. And then it's a show that happened and he didn't. But he really,

found this resourcefulness in him and this positivity to the point where, you know, what finally led him, and I'll explain how he got out, but that was the 19th appeal. There had been 18 previously that had been shot down. Each and every time his team of supporters was gutted, devastated. You know, like they had hopes, they have the truth on their side, boom, shot down by this system that just is hellbent on reaffirming convictions that values finality more than the truth. Well, Marty would always say, you know, it's okay. Don't worry.

You know, like, oh, we can appeal this, or there's another angle. And there's another expert that we can bring in. And, you know, we can, you know, bring up this new issue. And he was, like, the best cheerleader for his supporters who were all free in the free world. But they'd be down, including me. And Marty would get us back up again. Think about it. He's sitting in a freaking cage.

What an example of courage. Absolutely. I mean, it's courage. and leadership from the worst position possible, but to find an optimism, to find a way to get people to rally, to come back, to try again, to keep fighting, to keep the long-term perspective in mind and not lose track of the ultimate goal. It's like, you know, you're a former football coach. I mean, imagine just losing every single quarter and you're playing a 20-quarter game and you're

saying, it's okay. We're going to be fine. And then, like, finally, you know, in the 19th quarter, you win the game. That level of optimism is really extraordinary. It is. Especially under those circumstances. It's hard to have that level optimism, just being a guy out here running around the world. It's hard enough.

Yeah. We'll be right back. Next Monday, our 2026 IHeard podcast awards are happening live at South by Southwest. It's the biggest night in podcasting. We'll honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative. of talent and creators in the industry. And the winner is... Creativity, knowledge, and passion

will all be on full display. Thank you so much. IHeartRadio. Thank you to all the other nominees. You guys are awesome. Watch live next Monday at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific free at Veeps.com or the Veeps app. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. A nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now

the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain? A nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, doubt the case of Lucy Lettby,

we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it. To ask what really happened when the world decided, who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Lettby on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families.

late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Tremaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Germain was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only 20.

Two people knew the truth until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Segregation and the day integration at night. When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules. We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping on another world. Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together,

but not everyone was happy about it. You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were just dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch. and visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie's Place,

a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now, listen to Charlie's Place on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Dirty Rush, the truth about sorority life, the good, the bad, and the sisterhood with your host, me, Gia Judice, Daisy Kent, and Jennifer Fessler. Rush, the recruitment, the ritual, the reality of Greek life has been a mystery for those outside the source.

sorority circles until now. Is it really a supportive sisterhood that's simply misunderstood, or is there something more scandalous happening on campuses across the country? In this podcast, we pledged to peel back the layers and spell up the truth one Greek letter at a time. Pledges and active rush chairs and ritual keepers. Some call it the best time of their life, while others say it's a nightmare. From a perfect rush to recruitment scandals, what is really going on behind the doors of those sorority houses from Alpha to Omega? We're taking you inside sorority row, including the chapter room, as we explore the fellowship in the frenemies. Let's get dirty.

Listen to Dirty Rush on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm dying to understand what freed him. Well, so there was a hearing, the 18th appeal, was a major hearing in Suffolk County on Long Island in front of a local hack of a judge. and during that hearing, there are 20 plus different witnesses who came forward who, most of them didn't even know each other, were unconnected, but had a version of the same story and the same people involved. So when you think about what actually happened is the father's business partner named Jerry Steuerman, who's still free today, so I'm foreshadowing still a problem.

That was my question. Did he get locked up? That was coming. Unbelievable. Go ahead. So there was a poker game at Marty's house. It took place like every other week, and it rotated different houses, and it happened to be at his house that night.

Marty had actually set the table for everyone before the guests came. And this business partner, Jerry Stewart, was the last person to leave. He actually moved his car out of the driveway so someone else could leave, and then he pulled back in, was there at three in the morning. There were two hitmen and a driver. The hitmen were waiting in the bushes. They're cigarette butts outside the door and everything. Oh, yeah, it'll be a movie.

Send him in some real, real live hit men. Yeah. Connected guys, mob guys or something. Yeah, I mean, local, I don't even know if they're at that level. Just local. One of the guys his nickname, his name was Joe Creedham. He's dead now. His nickname was Joey Guns.

Oh, for God's sakes. You know, when you walk around with that nickname, yo, I'm Joey Guns. Yeah, that kind of tells you who you are. Yeah. And he and this other guy, Peter Kent, were waiting for Hanson, from the business partner, they came in. They committed the murders. There's been a lot of testimony, including Joey Guns' own son,

who says his dad told him in detail how he did it, and that he wore gloves, and it matches the crime scene, and that he walked up a half flight of stairs, which also matches the crime scene. It was a split-level house. There's so much, it became 100% clear what happened. And then the guy who was the driver who testified,

who initially actually confessed to a priest in prison where he was locked up on other stuff. Because when you're committing this kind of crime, you go in and out of prison, and you're committing other, you get caught sometimes. So all these witnesses came forward with a version of the story that implicated these other people,

the driver and the hitman. And it was clear as day that this was the truth. And somehow this judge ruled against Marty. And not only that, and by the way, there had been a nun and a priest who testified, and the judge in his ruling against Marty, this is the 18th appeal that lost, not only did he deny Marty,

but he used this colorful language. He said, you brought before this court a cavalcade of nefarious scoundrels. A nun and a priest. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It can't help me wonder

if the judge was being paid off. Well, I think the whole county is so deeply corrupt. They have a vested interest in just covering up all of the misconduct. 90% of judges nationally are former prosecutors. So there is a vested interest in preserving convictions because the convictions come from the prosecutor's office. That's what they fight for.

They win. And when new evidence comes to light, they just want to cover it. That almost feels like a wink and an odd fraternity. Yeah, yeah. Fortunately, that denial, and it was so egregious with the priest and nun stuff and some of the other people. I mean, sure, some of the people had been in criminal activity.

That's how they knew about it. That's how they knew these other guys who committed the murder. But some of them, you know, it found religion, had turned their lives around, and they were like, I got to clear my conscience. Like, this guy told me he did her. One of them said they wanted me to commit the crime, but I wasn't free that night. I would have done it. So it's crazy. Yeah.

But so on the 19th appeal, that denial got appealed to the New York Appellate Division, which was getting out of the cesspool of Suffolk County, where four judges heard the appeal. funny side story, James Gandalfini, who played Tony Soprano. This was at the height of the Sopranos, supported Marty and walked into that courtroom, like 15 minutes late and walked up to the front seat, and everyone was like, holy shit, Tony Soprano just came in. He supports Marty. Unbelievable. It shows actually, I think, the importance of some celebrity support because this is

the world we live in where people recognize somebody and they pay extra attention to it. Anyway, that court ruled for nothing. unanimously to overturn Marty's conviction. He was freed right after that. He was never retried. But the real perpetrators also were never tried. Part of the real perpetrators are the cops, though. Absolutely.

Nobody paid for anything. Nobody, including the lead homicide detective, whose name is K. James McCready, and who falsely testified, I don't want to get into all the details. There's so many of these, but it is crazy. The bottom line is. Bottom line is, Marty was clearly innocent.

They knew it at the time. They knew it throughout. And they still know it, but they did everything they could to keep him in prison for life. They didn't pay for it. Nobody paid for it. The guy who did it didn't pay for it. He's living in Boca Raton and a gated community. They owned together with Marty's father a bagel store on Long Island.

And there were some struggles over money and some other business dealings they had that weren't working, that they were arguing about. And Marty's father had put up a lot of money and was reclaiming his debt. The business partner owed him about $530,000 in 1988. That's a lot of money. That's a lot. Once Marty's parents were killed, the debt was gone.

He made out not only that, the bagel store made it big and became franchise. And there was still all over Long Island, New York City, Florida. What's the name? Draftmore Bagels. I know that place. Are you kidding me? That money was literally made off of the blood of Marty's parents and Marty's own suffering.

Did Marty sue the county? He did and he won a settlement. Good. He, you know, was fortunately financially. It's really not good. The taxpayers are now having to pay for these jackpies. Never should have happened in the first place. But at least for his sake, he was made financially old by the county and the state.

Okay. There's the depth. Yeah. There's the setup. That is a real. personal connection to what can happen yeah and you even went to law school yeah but he's out yeah and the question really is lots of people have the this experience changed me deal but then as time goes on and then justice is

handled that experience changed me can shrink why was this different for you? Yeah, for me, it's not only grown, it's transformed. There have been multiple like offshoots. It's like a tree that just keeps developing new branches. Which we're going to get into, but it is incredible. So, you know, the core, maybe the trunk, if I'm going to stick with the tree metaphor, is Marty. And everything stems from that and from Marty's experience and how it transformed me and what it led me to do in my life.

but then there have been other branches. And we can stick with the wrongful conviction one first, although there's some others that go in different directions. Yeah, we're going to go down that path first. Which one? The wrongful conviction. Yeah, that makes sense. So I learned through Marty's case that things that I thought were horrifying

and glaringly wrong and just completely immoral and shocking the conscience to any way. citizen were just routine, or just business as usual. And that's to say, police having a unbelievable leeway to craft a story that is often fiction. Now, I just want to make clear that I have a lot of respect for the difficulty of police work and for keeping a public safe. and it's a profession that I respect and that I want to see enforced and supported, but it has to be ethical. And so I'm not in a throwaway the police, defund the police, ban the police, abolish,

any of that stuff. I'm for pro-ethical policing, honest policing, policing that supports citizens that pursue the truth. Don't you think the vast majority of cops are? I do. That's why I want to make sure I'm not throwing away. Even if it's only 3%, that 3% can do immeasurable damage. Yeah, there is a bigger problem, just to be honest, which is I do think the, I'll say the majority are fully ethical.

And I will agree that a minority, a very small minority, are deeply unethical. But then there's also a lot who just look the other way. And I'm really troubled by the blue coat of silence. I was going to say that's the blue wall thing. Yeah, that's right. And how they, you know, look the other way. when their partner does something or files a false report or the supervisor that knows that this is impossible. I would like to see a tighter reigning in of misconduct, which would mean consequences for cops

who lie or cheat or steal or, you know, frame people, immediate firing. I'd like to see charges against them. I'd like to see it made impossible to do rather than tolerated, if not sometimes openly, in some departments openly supported. It's an ancient Greek notion that even if you're not the actor, if you're aware of the actor and do nothing, you're equally as guilty. That's right. And that concludes part one of our conversation with Mark Howard and you don't want to miss part two that's now available to listen to. Together, guys, we can change the country.

And it starts with you. I'll see in part two. Next Monday, our 2026 IHeart Podcast Awards are happening live at South By Southwest. This is the biggest night in podcasting. We'll honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative talented creators in the industry. And the winner is...

Creativity, knowledge, and passion will all be on full display. Thank you so much. Iheart Radio. Thank you to all the other nominees. You guys are awesome. Watch live next Monday at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific free at veeps. At Veeps.com or the VEPS app. When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner.

Charlie Fitzgerald had his own rules. Segregation and the day integration at night. It was like stepping on another world. Was he a businessman? A criminal. A hero. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.

Charlie's Place from Atlas Obscura and visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's Place on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Saturday, May 2nd, country's biggest stars will be in Austin, Texas. at our 2026 I Heart Country Festival presented by Capital One. C. Cain Brown. Parker McCollum. Riley Green. Shaboozy.

Dylan Scott. Russell Dickerson. Gretchen Wilson. Chase Matthew. Lauren Elena. Tickets are on sale now. Get yours before they sell out at Ticketmaster.com. The more you listen to your kids, the closer.

you'll be. So we asked kids, what do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at soundedouttogether.org. That's sounded outtogether.org. Brought to you by the ad council and pivotal. Welcome to Dirty Rush, the truth about sorority life. the good, the bad, and the sisterhood. With your host, me, Gia Judice, Daisy Kent, and Jennifer Fessler.

The reality of Greek life has been a mystery for those outside the sorority circles until now. Is it really a supportive sisterhood that's simply misunderstood? Or is there something more scandalous having on campuses across the country? Let's get dirty. Listen to Dirty Rush on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human