An Army of Normal Folks - How To Transform Your Worst Pain Into Unstoppable Purpose (Pt 2)

Episode Date: January 27, 2026

After mixing antidepressants and alcohol, Christie Luther hit someone with her car and they died. She spent 4.5 years in prison, where she discovered her purpose to create Oklahoma’s first cosmetology school inside a woman’s correctional facility. The R.I.S.E. Program has had 286 students and only 1 of them has ended up back in prison, which is unheard of! And while Christie still lives with extraordinary regret and shame, she will show you how to keep living and transform your worst pain into unstoppable purpose.  To learn more about R.I.S.E, visit riseprograminc.comSupport the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, everybody. It's Bill Courtney with an Army of Normal folks, and we continue now with part two of our conversation with Christy Luther, right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. What if mind control is real? If you get control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming,

is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples, and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted.

The biggest mind game of all, NLP, might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And the winner of the IHeart Podcast Award is, you can decide who takes home the 26 IHard Podcast Awards Podcast of the year by voting at IHart.

I heartpodcastawards.com now through February 22nd. See all the nominees and place your vote at Iheartpodcastawards.com. Audible is a proud sponsor of the Audible Audio Pioneer Award. Explore the best selection of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals all in one easy app. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free trial at audible.com. You know, Roldahl. The writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG.

But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What?

And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. The guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman.

And then he took his talent. to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock, before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be.

So we asked kids, what do you want your parents? parents to hear. I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at soundedouttogether.org. That's sounded outtogether.org. Brought to you by the ad council and pivotal.

How the hell were you speaking at Saddleback Church? So for people don't know, it's Rick Warren's Church. Yes. 4,000 people anyway is a lot of people of purpose-driven life. Yes. This is a book. But like, why is this former prisoner speaking in front of 4,000 people at Rick Warren's church? That's a great question.

Well, I was involved with Celebrate Recovery. And this state, tell people what that is for people. Celebrity Recovery is for life hurts, habits, and hang-ups. So it's whatever. It's not just drugs and alcohol. It's if you have issues with anger or divorce or pornography or gambling or overeating, everything. Any addiction that you have. So it's like AA for everything?

Everything, yes, yes. It's wonderful. It's a faith-based 12-step program based on the beatitudes. And the state rep used to come to the prison where I was going to celebrate recovery. And just we became friends and thought my story was something to share. And they were going to summit, which is why there was 4,000 people there. Celebrate Recovery Summit every year in the summertime. People gather from all over the world to come.

you know, getting juiced up about Celebrate Recovery and their recovery. And they, he submitted my name and my testimony to Cheryl and John Baker, who created Celebrate Recovery at Rick Warren's Church. They invited me to share my testimony. So I have twice out there. And I speak, I mean, I've spoken here in South Haven. I've given my testimony when I was here in Memphis last time. And so I've been a state rep for Celebrate Recovery. I'm, I really, it helped change my life. God use it as a catalyst to change my life. It gave me tools about, you know, forgiveness and amends and making my side of the street clean and all the things. So, yeah. Wait, so it was the second time you spoke at Celebrity Recovery at Saddleback after you had started the RISE program? Yes. So it was like

an update, if you will. Yeah, I actually did it, people. It's really, yeah, it was an update for what I do now. So I was just really grateful and humble, you know. And then the one part that caused me to go to prison always just tears at my heart, you know, to share that in front of that many people. But then to come to find out, people will tell me afterward, hey, that was me too, or I did that, or that happened to me or my family member. So, you know, I'm in great company. We're all, you know, rebels and prodigals. Well, most of us are. Not you, but most of us are.

Rebels and prodigals? Yes. Yeah. That's right. All right. So you start the rise program. Obviously, successful. You're presenting it back in front of 4,000 people. But it was not easy getting there. No. I spoke to a lady the other day and she said, gosh, you know, you just go in and have school at the prison and everything's cool. And I said, yeah, but you didn't see. You know, we've been doing this for 10 years. You didn't see all the prayers and the tears and the, I want to throw in the towel moments, you know. How many years before the 10 years, too? Like, how long did it take you to get started? So I... And how many doors closed in your face? Oh, my goodness.

Take us through starting it. So 17 years ago is when I feel like God spoke to me at the shampoo bowl about coming back. I just started the nonprofit in 2015. I filled out the paperwork, did all that. We do not get state or federal funding whatsoever. It's all private donations or I'm the grant writer also. And not everybody believed in it. They're like, well, where's your budget?

I don't have one. It's our first year. Well, what's your success rate? I don't have one. It's the first year. So to have many doors shut in my face, I just learned to kick doors down, you know. And I just learned that I needed one person to just believe that this was going to manifest. And even Department of Corrections are like, well, we'll give you the space.

We'll try it out, right? And it just gained momentum. And in nine years, March 27th will be nine years. We've only had one person returned back to prison and all that time. One person out of how many? Out of we're at 286 students right now that have been enrolled and or graduated in all that time. Yeah, one person. And that only happened in the last six months and I was a little disappointed with that.

Okay. So that's a recidivism rate of 0.3%. You know what it is nationally or in Oklahoma? I think it's like 21, 21, 24%, the recidivism rate is 67%, meaning that two-thirds of people who come out of prison will go back in. I had no idea. Within like three years. Wow.

So 0.3% compared to 67% is crazy. I can't even, it's God's program. I can't even, you know, someone asked me like, what's the secret sauce? I'm like, Jesus is, I don't know. We just follow the lead from the Holy Spirit. It's way more than cosmetology and barbering school. It's so much more than that. We do a devotional every day.

I will not allow them to write their Department of Corrections number on any of our paperwork. I call them by their first name. God calls us by our first name. You know, it's real important because I understood what it was like to lose your identity during that time of incarceration. And I just want them to know that they're valuable, no matter what the charge is, no matter if they have life without parole and they're never getting out. They need to, I need them to know that God views them as valuable. And that's what we try to retrain them, you know, to believe that. All right.

Tell me about the first corrections facility you convinced to do this. We're talking about knocking down doors and you need to convince one person. Yes. That seems the most important roadblock to push through. Is there an interesting story of the one person who ultimately made the decision of we're going to let this crazy lady in here? Yes. And it was Dr. Pittman. So after I met her, it took a couple of years.

to find the location. I mean, space is a premium, you know, in the facility. And by state board cosmetology rules and regulations, there's a specific square footage you have to have to be able establish a school 2200 square feet. So trying to find that, just an empty space in a prison is hard to come by. But there was a small warehouse space and she commandeered it at 4 o'clock on a Friday. And she went in there and she said, this is going to be for the cosmetology school. And so she called me, and we sat down with the curriculum, and I submitted all the paperwork to the cosmetology board. We're the first licensed cosmetology school inside the women's prison in Oklahoma. And now we have two that are licensed in Oklahoma. But it was a lot. It took a lot of meetings.

I had a lot of naysayers. I had a lot of the correctional officers that were like, hey, she used to be here. Like, what do you mean give her razors and scissors? And they just couldn't see the vision. and they couldn't see how it would happen because it had never had before. So it was a pretty innovative, crazy idea to make happen. And so for the first six months, I didn't even take a paycheck. I quit my teaching job. My boss thought I was nuts. She said, that's your retirement, that's your, you know, that your savings, that you're

medical. What are you thinking? I said, that's what God said. I had to quit so I can go work in the prison. And I did. And the first class was hard. the teacher and the grant writer, and I don't know that I slept at all because I would be up all night writing grants and asking and begging, basically. And we had one small, tiny little foundation in that

county outside of Oklahoma County, real tiny little county. And you could only apply if you were in that tiny location and the prison is. I said, please just come see, just come see the girls and see what they're doing. And hopefully that'll win your heart. And they just melted. And so ever since they've been great partners with us. And then it's just grown after that. And it gave us leverage, you know, for other grants. And we've won a ton of different awards and the Innovation Award, which is a pretty prestigious award in Oklahoma. Programs making a difference for women and children. We've won that a few times. And we've just grown like crazy, which is scary. I just always tell the girls, buckle up, put your seatbelt on. We don't know what we're doing today. So I think you said you were the

first in Oklahoma to do this. Are there any others nationwide? There are some nationwide. And so ironically enough, I'm doing a talk at the NABA, which is the National Association for Barber Boards, and I'm on the cosmetology board in Oklahoma. So my talk is going to be on how to establish a school inside of a prison and how to operate and maintain. So that's next month in South Carolina, so I'm excited about that. But there are in Pennsylvania, Ohio. I think California has a few. I think like 5-10 across the country? Maybe.

I think actually I think Pearl, Mississippi might. Yeah. So I think there are a few, but not too many. Yeah. So. Well, we love all of our. Vegas has one. Okay.

All of our regular listeners know this, but Bill has this line that magic happens when your passions and your abilities need an opportunity. Yes. And so we featured over 125 different crazy. models on the podcast and all fueled by different people's passions and abilities. And this is one that's, I think, really unique and applicable to anybody who has their cosmetology license. And this could be a really interesting way to use the skills that you have to help other people. It was just that. It was that. I mean, I already had my cosmetology license. Prison. I mean, perfect fit, right?

Like, you know, you see a need you have been called. And while I was there, I saw the need for, I knew I was getting out and to my license and to a career path. And it's one of the few state licenses that you can have in Oklahoma as a felon, as a cosmetology license. And so I thought, if it works for me, surely it can work for them. And so I wanted to help my sisters. I wanted to help them out. And I thought, well, let's do this.

It's a win-win. Because on the outside world, as we call it, we have flat tires and children are sick. And you have, you know, snow days. and you have all these bills and things that you have to do or, you know, they have to take care of. But inside and forgive me, but you literally have the time to sit there and to do something productive. And so, you know, for most correctional facilities, programs are way on the bottom of the list and their budget. And so how better to do that, but you come in as a nonprofit. It's no cost to them at all.

We fund our program and our nonprofit partners and stuff fund the program. And it just seemed like a win-win. Like, it's my education. It's my textbook. I can give the education to who I want. And I want them to win. You know, I want them to get out and never come back. Do you know how many licenses formerly incarcerated people in Oklahoma are able to get?

I know you said it's few, but. I don't want to quote. I believe it's under 10. Wow. I think that there are some, I think they made some room for maybe. like electricians and some, I don't know that for sure, but licensing for like nursing and stuff is out. But I think some of the trades maybe, locksmiths are out, I think, for Oklahoma.

So. Yeah, I'm going to ask Chad CBT for a second. How many work licenses exist in Oklahoma? For felons. Just in general. So 210 distinct occupational licenses out there. Right. So it's one of the few.

and I would say it's under 10 that a felon can have. So, you know... That needs to change. Yeah, it really does. And we even, you know, we have even authored our own bill because our school is different inside of a prison has different requirements than the outside schools do. So meaning, for example, we can't have a private wax room, which is required by state law in a school. But we can't because of Priya, the Prison Rape Elimination Act, so they can't be alone. You can't have, you know, exposed body parts.

So that was out. So that had to change. I can't give someone with, you know, in a max facility or a medium facility, razor and scissors and say, here's your kit. Now go put it over here. Like it has to, we have to have a tool cage. We have to have things done a little differently. So I have a friend that's a state representative. I said, hey, can you write us a bill that makes us legit and compliant? And so we took our rules and regulation book, turned it upside down and made it compliant to DOC. So we have our own bill. Nice. Is it past? Oh, yeah. Okay. The governor signed off on it last year, last May, and we got to all go. I've got to take 13 people, and we got to go meet him, and we have some pretty cool pictures like this with the governor.

And he's- Did you bring any of your current students? Did they let you bring? Well, not from the prison, but the ones that were released. Graduated, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about how you've seen lives changed.

I think you talk about it really interesting that. just the flip that can happen inside someone's head that they've achieved something themselves. It's so gratifying. Like, it's the best work. No offense, but I feel like I had the best job ever. It's so good to watch them just change as humans, whether it's the men or the women. I work primarily with women, but to see them change. Like, as an instructor, you see that, you know, the educational light switch go on. Oh, we got it, right? But to watch them walk. through a death of a parent while they're incarcerated, to get turned down from their judicial review, to lose custody of their children, to walk with them through those extreme hardships,

and then to watch them put in the hard work and to graduate and to take that exam. The state exam, state board comes to the prison to test them. That's never happened before. To see them test and get their work permit and get their license and immediately, you know, be reunited with their and have a job waiting for them. We partner with so many salons that they're able to, you know, go to work right away. But there's something about watching them change. I do some really hard lessons with them. And that's where I find the need a lot of times. I had one girl and she said, okay, here's the exercise. DOC called me and they said, you have two hours, pack up your stuff and go. Where are you going to live? I'll go. And they'll just have tears. I'll say,

where are you going to live? Well, I don't know. I'll still have more time. No, two hours. Where are you going? I guess I'm going to the homeless shelter. Oh, no, you're not. I guess we need to get a transitional home. That's how that happened. And then I had one girl who, during COVID, we missed 247 days of school. And she got out 100 hours on her time left to doing class early. Where does she go to school on the outside? I don't know what to do with her. So we have to help her. I guess we'll start a school. also. So that's how that happened. And it's when whatever the need is, and then just like clothing, we began taking clothing donations. And so not only are we able to supply clothing, you know, for our girls getting out of prison, but for all the women getting out of prison to now all the

gentlemen that are getting out of prison. And so I was like, man, we're getting so many donations and I'm so grateful. But we got to put these things to work. So what can we do? I know. Let's start a thrift store. So that's how that has. happen. Oh, and I need to hire the girls that are out of prison to work in the thrift store. So it just is a win, win, win, you know. And it's helping meet the needs. It's helping, you know, supply what we're doing, puts back into the program, gives them a job and a little bit of pride, you know, personal pride for themselves. And it's just, we're just like a big crazy sisterhood. It's really cool. We'll be right back. What if mind control is real?

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology.

Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, NLP might actually work. This is wild.

Listen to Mind Games on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And the winner of the IHeart Podcast Award is, you can decide who takes home the 26 IHeart Podcast Awards Podcast of the year by voting at IHeartPodcastawards.com now through February 22nd. See all the nominees and place your vote at IHeart Podcast Awards.com. Audible is a proud sponsor of the Audible Audio Pioneer Award.

Explore the best selection of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals all in one easy app. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free trial at audible.com. You know Roll Doll, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been.

Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you.

I was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever?

And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be.

So we asked kids, what do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids

and their emotional well-being at soundedouttogether.org That's sounded outtogether.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal. Speaking of the transformation, I think you make a point that I love of, you know, somebody walks up and sees you and they won't even like look at you in their eyes. Or, I mean, people say like people's eyes glazed over, they know they're not there. Just somebody who's so down and out.

And then to see the transformation that can happen and somebody's just facial expressions. It's just wonderful. It really is. And I, we always take a before picture when class starts and then an after picture. And it's like totally different women. And we do some crazy things in there. Like I said, you know, that's one of the exercises that we do. Actually, Tuesday this week, we had, we opened our ninth class at Mabel Bassett, which is the medium facility.

It's the one with death row for the ladies at Oklahoma. So our ninth class. and we call it a funeral box. So I have a box. And I tell them on one side of the paper, write down everything you can't do. Now, flip it over and write down all the things that you don't like about yourself. So they're busy. They're writing.

They're writing. And I have them folded up real small. And they come and say goodbye to it and put it into the funeral box. And I said, so now you don't get to say those things about yourself. You say goodbye to all that. You can't say, I'm fat, I'm ugly, I'm this, whatever. I can't do that haircut. I said, because I will say, is that your negative confession about yourself?

And so I just bring it that way. And it reminds them that our words are powerful. And the things that people spoke over our lives are not, they're not necessarily true. But it's when we begin to believe those truths and those lies or the lies that we call truths, that we lose who we are. And that's what's happened. While they're in prison, they forget who they are. They just relate to that number or what they used to have without anything. hope to see a future. So we do some crazy, we do some crazy stuff in there. And it, and it's the whole,

it's the whole person, not just here's your cosmetology. I say we, we have cosmetology school under the guise of a, you know, of a church or under a faith-based organization and the easy parts of cosmetology and barbering. That's just a life skill. Everything else is, it's about healing the whole woman. And it's so gratifying. We actually just had on the founder of the prison, yoga project. Oh, wow. And similarly, yeah, I mean, yoga is just the tool or the mechanism. That's right. You know, with Coach Bill, you know, football coach, football is just the tool or the mechanism. Almost all of our stories. Like, it's not actually about that thing. Not about the thing. It's more just the vehicle to impact lives. It really is. And so it's just so gratifying. It's funny

in the beginning when we didn't really have a bank account, I started a Facebook page for the RISE program, just putting like little, you know, little scriptures on there, little pictures. Oh, here's the prison where we're at, like little small stuff. And it has grown crazy. We've got, I don't know, like 7,200 followers or something. And it's all their families, you know. But the beautiful thing is if you think about what you've seen on TV, right, or I don't want to say anyway, but you've seen prison or just new black.

I don't know. It's not it. We're not braiding hair wearing wife beaters. It's not, that's not in Oklahoma anyway. Not in Oklahoma, no offense, Piper. Not in Oklahoma. We started this Facebook page, and I got permission from DOC to have a camera as a camera at the prison, right? That's wild. And I take pictures every single day of them. And I put them on Facebook. And I'll say, hey, tell your family, check out Facebook, you know. And so the stigma that we see on prison movies, and you think they're in the hole, they're in, you know, shoe or segregated housing unit. They're only eating, you know, beans and that's it. And they're, you know, you. You know, they're miserable and depleted.

Like, there's college there. And there's, they have a dog program and they have prison fellowship. And they have all these really cool, amazing things, you know. But to get into our program, I hold the bar pretty high. And they have to rise to that. And the coolest thing is, I have one lady and she's 60. And so she works for me now. She works in our little stock room.

And her mom and dad and family had not come to see her in 25 years. And so when I began putting her pictures on Facebook, just showing her working on the mannequin or whatever, or in the Christmas picture, her mom filled out visitation forms to come see her. And that not only happened to her, but many of our family members came to see them during graduation and came to, now they visit regularly. They said, it was breaking our heart to think that you were there and it was so miserable and I didn't want to see you like that. But I'm seeing you smiling. I'm seeing you doing updoos and her. cuts and I see the light in your eyes. I want to see you. And it's just the family restoration was the greatest gift and greatest surprise that we didn't even anticipate. That's crazy because

you think they had almost even dehumanized their own kids. Like you're not a human being, I don't want to see you. And you just putting their face on Facebook, rehumanize their own children to them. It's amazing. I put all three of our schools, and we have three, two, inside the prison and one outside. We just, I can't explain the favor that we have to be able to do that. And they get such encouragement from people who knew them, who had been incarcerated. They're out now. Family members. We've got people from all over the world. I've got somebody from Australia that comments, good going, mate, you know. I'm like, wow. Never, never saw that coming, you know. And it's so gratifying.

So you know a lot about cosmetology. Yeah. But you got to figure out this housing thing, apparently, but transitional housing. Are you a housing expert, too? I am now. You just figure it out. I know now. We tell us a little bit more about that.

Oh, my goodness. Well, it was that. The girl in my class that told me she would live at a homeless shelter, I was like, there's no way. God would be happy with me if I let that happen, ever. And so I began asking. I began looking for properties and announcing, I'm looking for properties. You know, this is what I'm doing. And I need it to be, you know, donated to us, really. And so we had a wonderful lady that goes to my church. And she bought one. It was during COVID. Perfect four bedroom, four bath. Like, you know, and we rented from her about a year. And one day she said, you know what? Here you go. Here's the whole house. Have it. And so it's paid for. And right now we have six ladies that live in the house. And it's gorgeous.

It's in a great area of town. We never put more than two ladies in a room together. They lived in prison. They lived in bunk beds. We're not going to do that. So they have their own space. Yeah. She just handed us the whole deed to the house.

Speaking of that, is there your own group of army of normal folks who've helped you do this? Obviously, you've done amazing work, but it sounds like Dr. Pittman. It sounds like this lady. If there's any other members of your own army that you want to pay tribute to. I have. I said I answered to the. the Lord and to the board. My board members are incredible. They show up. They help me build and do construction. And I learned to, hey, I learned how to do a lot of construction this year when we're

putting the thrift store together. But yes, I mean, I'm surrounded by an army of incredible prayer warrior women, for one. That's all my sisterhood, on my graduates. And then people from my church, my church is on board victory church. And they support us monthly. And then just have bought another house and just wrote a check for it. I mean, someone donated. We wrote a check for that and my church stepped in and decorated everything. It looks like a boozy magazine that you're like, should I touch this or not? It's just gorgeous. And the girls come in. Is it nicer than your own house? It is. It is. It's pretty nice. But they come in and the girls will cry. And some of them lived in absolute squalor, you know, with no running water. And for them to, they just step in and they

just cry. They're like, I've never seen. anything this beautiful. And so they take great pride in it. So I'm just surrounded by so many amazing people, you know, the prayer covering that I get for me, for our program, I mean, I can't put a price tag on that for sure. But God has opened up doors. I've got great funders, you know, I mean, the Hobby Lobby family, and we have George Kaiser Foundation. I mean, I can just go on and on and say how many people have donated to E.L. Delma Gaylord, that's a huge family. And in Oklahoma City and like sight unseen. They just have gotten wind of us or follow us or see what's going on or seeing the fruit

of the ministry and they're like, we're in on that and continually showing up, not just one and done, always showing up. And people behind the scenes that do all the hard work, that bring all the food in for the Christmas parties or that pack the Christmas bags or, you know, buy supplies and toilet paper. And I mean, the girls, my graduates that got out have gone to finish their master instructor license. So they're quad license is what we call it. Master instructor for cosmetology and barbering and then cosmo and barbering. So there's four licenses right there.

And they're valuable. And that's rare in Oklahoma that someone would have those. But they love the program. It's changed their life. God's changed their lives through that. And they want to give back. So for maybe the first year or two while they're working in another job. job in a salon. They volunteer. They volunteer. They come back in. They go to the training for

Department of Corrections, get their badge, their volunteer badge, come back in, and then, you know, testify and teach, cover for me if I'm out of town doing a podcast, which I'm so grateful, and they are. But then, you know, I'll see a shift in them. And maybe they don't want to be behind the chair as often. Maybe they just feel God calling them to teach. So I'll recognize that. and I'll say, hey, did you want to come to work with us part-time or full-time? Sometimes it's part-time. Sometimes it's a couple of days. And I want to honor them because I know they've volunteered for a couple of years,

but I want to honor them by paying them. And so as we've grown and needed more staff, then I just hired them. And many of them will leave their job and work full-time for us. And so that's what happens. How many of these women have volunteered for our paid staff now? Well, I still have a few that are volunteer, but I have three that run the schools for me. So Tessa runs my Oklahoma City school. And Crystal, she's been trained from day one with me.

She runs the brand new one that we just opened this month. And then Maria and Jessica, they fill in at the Mabel Bassett, at the one that I teach at mostly. All right. So I'm going to ask you favorite story or stories. I know it's hard to pick one, so at least we'll phrase it as one of your favorite, but you could also feel free to tell a couple if you want to do. Okay.

So one of my favorite stories is, and I call this, shorty is who I'm going to be talking about. Is she short? She's very short, a little bitty. She was probably the roughest one on the yard. They would call her a shot caller and a little troublemaker. And she, the- Like beating people up? beating people up, picking up packages, doing a lot of...

What do you mean by picking up packages? Contraband things, running a store, doing some little... I'm telling on you, Shorty. All the stuff. She's out now. It's okay. No, she's not. Oh, she's not.

She's not. No, but that's why this is such a great story. So, it's so good. It's so good. She was the ruffian. All the officers were like, are you sure you want her in your school? Like, you do not know what you're getting yourself into. And I just loved her from the, I could see gold in her, you know.

She couldn't see it in herself. And so, been in there. It had to be the Lord, I guess. I wanted something so much better because she was a little roughhouse, you know, and been locked up and in juvenile since 15, 16, whatever. So for 16 years, she's been at this prison still right now. And gone through the school. I brought the barbering curriculum out there just to kind of encourage her to do the barbering,

not a girly girl and definitely wanted to do the boy stuff, you know. And so there was a documentary crew that came from France, and they were talking with us and interviewing. And she said, if you take the clippers out of my hand, you put the pistol right back in my hand. And that just shook me. You know, you took the pistol out and gave me a set of clippers. But if you take my clippers away, all I have is that pistol.

And I thought about that, and I was like, wow. So she'd been adopted out and her mom left her and just a lot of prison moms and never really having a family like that. She calls me mom. Calls me mom. And what do you think about that? I love it because that is the highest form of respect and loyalty is for them to call me mom. And so she says when she'll talk to me, I'm right in class. She'll say, my mom said, right?

And I love it. I'll show you a picture of Shorty here, pretty soon. And she said, don't ever leave me. I said, you know what? I'm going to tell you something right now. I would put paper on you right now. And that means I would adopt her right now at 36 years old. And so that shook her.

And so we have... I'm serious about this. I'm serious. I'm serious. I would adopt her. I would adopt her. You can't adopt her while she's in prison, can you? I don't know.

But, man, that makes me see... Yeah, I never thought about that before. That makes me think about it. I'm going to check into it. You give me something to think about, but I told her, I said, I would put paper on you. And so that did something for our friendship, relationship, you know. And so she has abandoned all plans. She gets out this year in November, abandoned all other plans.

And she's coming to Oklahoma City now. She wants to work for our program. And she wants to be able to go back in and tell her story. She's quite an instructor. And I've had to kick her out of my class before. I've had to tell her, you can't get it together. You need to go then. And that hurt me to even say that.

But the point was, you know, I want better for you. I want different for you. And, yeah, we're inseparable. That's my little homie. And so now we have the other school, which is two hours away. And so we put in a transfer for her to go there, institutional need to be an instructor at the new school. And so it's time. It's ready.

And I'm proud of her. And so that's one of my favorite stories. Do you feel like her heart is softened too? Oh, my gosh, yeah. Yeah. She says, I'll use her prisonese language. She'll say, I'm loyal to the soil, which I love. To you, you're the soil?

That means to the death, loyal to the soil all the way. Never, never changing. Yeah. Even you like saying things like put paper on it. Yeah. All the lingo that you've learned. I speak a couple of languages and I speak prisoners. And so that's one of the languages.

Yeah. So I think having been there and lived it and walked it out, it surprises them because I don't, I typically don't look like I'm somebody that's been to prison. I don't behave that way. I don't speak that way. If I'm at the Capitol speaking or, you know, anything else, I don't have some, I don't know. I mean, sometimes people have a stigma about that. But, you know, I think they're surprised to know that I've been incarcerated before. And so, I think that they call it street crid, you know, it gives me some credibility with them or some trust with them that can often be hard, one, through other people, you know. We'll be right back. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you,

what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions. to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits.

He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, NLP, might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And the winner of the IHeart Podcast Award is, You can decide who takes home the 26 IHeart Podcast Awards Podcast of the year by voting at iHeartPodcastawards.com now through February 22nd. See all the nominees and place your vote at

Iheartpodcastawards.com. Audible is a proud sponsor of the Audible Audio Pioneer Award. Explore the best selection of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals all in one easy app. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free trial at audible.com. You know Roaldahl, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy?

Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roaldol, is a wild. journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either.

Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock, before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids.

The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be. So we asked kids, what do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at soundedouttogether.org.

That's sounded outtogether.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal. What does the future look like for the Rise program? We're just going to, I'm wearing a five-point NASCAR harness now. I don't wear a seatbelt. I'm just like, let's go, Lord. I'm open to whatever he wants to do. There's an apartment building across the street from our school in Oklahoma City,

and it's a small one, like about 16 apartments. And I really want to do phase two housing for the guys also, and so they can have their children there. But that's on the radar right now. You know, I'm going to keep talking about it. I'm going to keep growing as needed. I'm going to keep hiring them as needed. I'm sure sometime in a while I may have to think about retirement,

some time, but I just keep training them up so they can take over, you know, so they can do it. We're looking at, there's a friend of mine that just bought a mall in Oklahoma City. You could say who it is. He's been on the podcast. Chris. Let's go. Chris Brewster. He bought a mall, and it was kind of dilapidated. It was the place to be back in the day.

And it's in the southwest side of Oklahoma City, and it's primarily Hispanic community, which we love. and we're working right now to try to get a law or a bill that would ask if there could also be Spanish language exams for cosmetology testing. There's not, or state testing. It's English only. So we'd love to see that because I think a lot more people would benefit from that if there's a language barrier. But they used to have a cosmetology school inside that mall, and so it's already kind of waiting for us. And so we've already put in our LOI, which is our letter of intent, to say, we're in this thing, you know, let's do it. And his crosslands mall is meant to be like a community hub, if I remember things, right?

So there's schools in there and there may be church stuff. Yes. They're thinking about a health clinic. So all kinds of things. So it would be interesting to have, you know, social purpose, you know, things like you guys in there too. Right. Well, he's superintendent of a really great, you know, epic charter. school, which is cool because part of their curriculum could be, you know, cosmetology for their

vocational training. And, you know, it's a win-win because employers will end up getting great employees and then employees will end up getting, you know, great jobs. And so it keeps everybody legal and legit and hard, you know, hard at work. Have you thought about expanding to other states? I have. I've been approached by Kentucky for the women's prison there. And I've been approached from Texas, Ohio. And then, like I said, I'm doing, oh, South Carolina is another one. So are you telling these guys no so far? I think that they're the ones putting the brakes on.

I'm like, let's go. Times a ticking. We got stuff to do. So it's so funny that, you know, later in life, God said, now's the time. You know, but what I knew then, what I was going through then, my level of obedience wouldn't sustain where I'm at right now. I had to learn, I had to grow, I had to get the education, the personal knowledge to be able to carry me right now. And where I'm at right now, my level of surrender, obedience, and knowledge won't carry me for what he has coming up.

So it's the trust the process as we grow. Would you take back going to prison, given how your life has played out? People have asked me that. And I, man, at one time I was like, absolutely. I lost my daughters to this. But now I would say, I hate the reason I had to go. That over and above, that'll never change. That reason that I had to go, I wish I could undo that.

And obviously I can't. Would I do it all over again or do I regret going? No, because I found me. I found my purpose. It was hard. And that four years, four months, four weeks and one day seemed like an eternity. an eternity. But here we are today. And I think about the scriptures, it says, less a kernel of wheat die, then comes the harvest. And so I had to die to myself. Things had to change. My life,

my old life, my old me, my old addictions had to die. And then I get to see the fruit. I get to see the harvest. And not only for the women and the men that I work with daily, that harvest, but for their children to see, for their children to be restored to them, that's remarkable. And some people never get to see the harvest, and yet they've done good work. So it's an incredible blessing that you get to see it in your life. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm drinking from whales. I didn't dig.

Somebody came before me, wrote the cosmetology rules, wrote the DOC rules or whatever. Somebody did that before me. You mentioned losing your daughters. Do you guys not have a relationship? We do. We do. But at the time, you know, I didn't have custody of them. And my oldest daughter was angry.

And she was 13. You can't blame her. I couldn't blame her. And I said, feel your feels, you know. Do what you do. If you don't want to talk to me, I understand. It wasn't intentional. It wasn't, I wasn't living some lifestyle that caused me to want to be away from

children. It was a horrific accident that changed my life and their lives immediately, you know. And then my youngest one, my goodness, I mean, she had night terrors and it was just the separation. She was always with me, always. She never even, you know, went to a daycare or anything like that. So that was horrific for all of us, you know. And then her dad is the one that filed for divorce. And so now we go on vacations together. I've got a granddaughter. My youngest daughter is a pretty popular tattoo artist in Oklahoma City. And my oldest daughter worked for our nonprofit for some time, you know, and just recently moved. And so, you know, we have great relationships.

But that's scary to think that you wouldn't. And there are some of our ladies at the transitional house when they get out. They just are broken because their children are angry with them. And so I get to tell them. I know what that feels like. And so here's what we need to do. We're in this together. We're just going to keep going. We're going to keep posting stuff on Facebook. You get your driver's license. You get this job. You keep going. You keep going. You keep staying clean and sober. And I said, children want to have their moms and their lives. They'll be back. May not be right this second, but we have to keep going. And so on those days when they come back around, that's a great reward. That's really great. So even in my own life, I feel that. It's kind of having walked it out before to be able to testify to say, I understand, sister, but just wait. And, you know, on our Facebook page, I brag on them all the time, and I look for opportunities. So anybody can find dirt, but you've got to dig to find gold sometimes. And it's that they get to navigate this hard existence called reentry with a group of people that walk through it before them, not on their own.

And when you're on your own and you're trying to find a job and you don't have the support, it's easy to fall off or fall backward into your addiction or go back to prison. And so we won't let that happen. We will not let that happen. We're, yeah, we go to the Thunder Games together. We cook together. We go rock climbing. We like, it's a family.

So we kind of fill in the gaps for the families we might not have anymore. You know, I had family members that wrote me off. And God said, look at all the daughters I've given you. Look at all the sisters I've given you. You can't say you're alone. Sounds like you got an interesting life. You're not just like a boring white person in Oklahoma. I hope not.

I hope not. I ride a Harley. Do you really? Yeah, heck yeah, I do. And I mean, I love to travel. I just hiked up in September. I just went, hiked up Machu Picchu and Vinicunca and Humanite Lake did all those in Peru. and I took one of my girls from the transitional house with me.

She got her passport, and I was like, let's go. So this year we're going to Latvia, and we're going to speak at the, I speak a little bit of Russian. And so the refugees come in from the Russians. I used to speak Russian. Gabrily, Yaporovsky. I don't know. You grew up in Memphis, your Oklahoma City or in prison. Like, where does Russian come into this?

It was something that just interested me from way back before the coup took place away back in the day. And I just want to be done. Did you learn in prison or another time? No, I learned it before I went to prison. Okay. Yeah. So in that, yeah, my pastor, she says, hey, we have all these refugee women, Jewish women that are from Russia that are coming over, escaping Russia and Ukraine and going to Latvia and Estonia. And so doing a women's conference, you want to go?

I'm like, yes. So I'm taking two of my girls that have graduated my program and have their passports and we're going. And we're going to Kenya. Every year I go to Kenya. and we go to the Maasai tribe and we just love on people. It's just, I'm so grateful to be able to have the opportunities to travel. And I'm guessing these girls haven't traveled much until you took them. Never, yep.

So that's really, that's kind of cool to see their ooze and ahs, you know, and their tears because, yeah, they just follow what the Lord, what the Lord has them do. So I think you have some interesting thoughts on the word grace. Can you talk about that? Man, I heard something the other day, and I think that this pertains, I'm so glad I get to say it right now. I was listening to a little popular female preacher, and she said, we have a call under heart where every day, you know, God pours his grace in us, and sometimes it just runs out. And he has to keep renewing it every day for us. And I think that.

I think it's undeserved grace that I get every day. And I don't deserve it at all. But I'm so grateful for it. And I recognize it. And I want to extend that same grace to everybody else I come in contact with. You know, I believe we all have made mistakes and we all need a second chance, sometimes third, fourth, 100 chances, if you will. Or have you heard people say they just need a first chance too?

given how many people grew up, they never really had a shot. That's so good. I love that. I'm going to use that. I didn't invent that. No, I love it. I'm going to borrow that then. It's that.

It's the taking the pistol out of the hand kind of thing. But it's grace. I can't explain it. But grace wins every time. Love wins every time. Love never fails. Never. Never.

I almost said that earlier when you were talking about, you know, Christ can transform people. And this isn't a Christian show. So not every listener, you know, is a little listener. you know, as a faith, but even take Christ out of her sex, just love you being in prison, loving upon, you know, these women and, you know, a government program or a government check can never love people, right? And it's a love that can really transform everything. That's exactly right. It's, you know, I find it's meeting people where they're at,

meeting them exactly where they're at. And people think oftentimes they have to clean up before they can, you know, come to the faith or be good enough. I thought that. I was on a performance treadmill, you know, and thought I've got to behave, I've got to act. If I act right, then I'll be loved. If I, you know, do these things, then I'll be accepted. And it's perpetual ridiculousness. It's a performance treadmill. I mean, you never get anywhere. So if you just meet people where they're at, whether they're, you know, drinking, cussing, whatever, not in faith, doing whatever they're doing, you just treat them as a human being, you know, and get to know them that way, then that's okay. shortcomings and I need some grace too.

You mentioned asking people if they are teachable. How teachable do you find them? Because it's a common conception and I think it's largely true. Most adults are not that teachable. It's like we've got our habits. We're this way. We're kind of locked in. Obviously people can change.

There's crazy redemption stories. We should always be open to the possibility of it. But how teachable are you actually finding your, your students? I kind of mandate that, I think. I just ask him. I said, I don't care if you've been braiding hair since the womb. I'm not impressed by that at all. I need you to throw that out the window and surrender. So it's about surrendering, right, what you think you know, because we're going to teach you a new way. We're going to teach you the state board way so you can pass, you know, the exam. I tell them, I said, you pass the exam. That's great. I don't care if you cut hair with a

blowtorch, a machete, you know, whatever, chainsaw. Let's go. I want to see. But for right now, this is what we're doing and it helps you to get your license and so it's that and then it's also taking constructive correction i want to say criticism because i don't believe in that you know but correction hey i need you to you know clean it up a little bit or do this over here and if you're going to be you know if a person's going to be defiant about it or offended all the time then there's no place for that in here you know go lose your chips off your shoulder and then come back and see me. And so that might sound harsh, but it's really that. It's like surrender to what God has for you and what he's about to do because it's going to change your life. And so, you know,

I'm not talking about like some brainwash session or something. It's literally just saying, you know, I have to remain teachable because I don't know it all. I have to remain teachable. Do the things that you're afraid of. Do it anyway, you know? And that feels like growth to me when you're doing something you're little nervous about or, you know, scared of. What have they taught you and how have you transformed over time? Oh, my goodness. They've taught me to be accepting. They've taught me to be more loving.

They've taught me to meet people where they're at. I have to. Not everybody's the same, you know, collectively, yes, we're a class, but individually, you know, you're Dorothy or you're Maria or you're Tessa and I have to meet them where they're at. And so they've pulled me out of my shell. I'm pretty driven. So I love to work as odd as that sounds. Who goes to prison and works two jobs, me.

But I love to work. And so I'm serious about what I do. I'm serious about the mission God has me in. But yeah, they've taught me to be more accepting and more filled with grace. Really, you know? And if we're having a bad day, you get one day to have a bad day. Go wipe it off and let's get back at this the next day, you know? And if they're grieving, then we grieve with them, you know?

So, yeah. Has there been any really dramatic moments during the program that could be sad, hard, or really beautiful, like some embrace that just shook everyone in the moment. Oh, my goodness. Feel free to tell both types. We have had, we've, we witnessed one of our girls the other day whose father is, he's in ICU and he's coated a few times. And she was gutted. She was literally just laying in the floor. And man, you have to be so gentle in that. And I've learned to say, Sister, I don't have words, but I just held her while she just, you know, just broke.

I have another one that is one of my little tiny young little tiny chicks. And she's not a hard life. And she lost both of her children to, I'll just say to an adoption. And she was gutted over it. How do you, I know what that feels like to be away from your kids. Meaning her parental rights were terminated and someone adopted them. Yeah. Yeah.

And just get their names tattooed all over her. you know, and to look at that every day and no. And I'm just like, gosh, what do you even say to that? Then I've had one of my students who was almost finished and she relapsed and relapsed in a big way. And so I put her out of the class. That'll remove you from the class right away if they have a misconduct. And she came back and apologized and she just said, that's not me. This is what I was doing.

And it was wrong. And please, I only have a few more hours. It would mean everything to me. And so her victory story is she passed, she finished, she graduated, and had never graduated anything in her life. I let her come back. And then she did her barbering and passed that. And now she's one of my master instructor students.

And it is just like carrying this great torch for what we do and for her testimony and what grace looks like, you know. We'll be right back. What if mind control is really? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits.

He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And the winner of the IHart Podcast Award is You can decide who takes home the 26 IHard Podcast Awards Podcast of the year by voting at IHeartPodcastawards.com

Now through February 22nd. See all the nominees and place your vote at IHeartPodcastawards.com. Audible is a proud sponsor of the Audible Audio Pioneer Award. Explore the best selection of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals all in one easy app. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free trial at audible.com. You know Roll Doll, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG.

But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it.

You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. I was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock

before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be.

So we asked kids, what do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at soundedouttogether.org. That's Sounded Outtogether.org.

Together.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal. So I think you might be teaching some lifers too. Is that correct? I do. I have some that won't get out life without the possibility of parole. So we've told one story similar like that with some Michigan prisons or that actually have a theology program. Yes. And people will say like, why are you teaching these lifers? They're not getting out of prison. So what are you doing? Well, exactly.

Well, it's my education so I can give it to whoever I want to. It's free. It's not costing the state is what I usually will say. You know, it's my gift here and here. And I can just transfer it to whoever I want. And a life is valuable. And I found that out for myself. I found out that my life was valuable to the Lord.

So I look at them and I see them as God's daughters and that their life has value. I never look any of my students up. So the only ones we can't allow in our class or sex offenders, so we don't have sex offenders in our class. You never look their senses up to see what the crime is? Nope, I don't want to. Because then I'd sit in judgment, wouldn't I? Yeah. And so I don't.

And so that way when I meet him, I'm like, hey, Betty, how you doing? And I meet Betty right there. And I don't know about her past. She doesn't know about mine, but I usually talk about it. And I don't need to because then I can, they usually end up telling me after all. But I don't. I don't. That's not how I choose them or select them for the class or anything like that.

I listen to the Holy Spirit. I really feel prompted one way or the other. I listen to DOC or if they pass a UA and those kinds of things and whatever their little essay that they write me says. But I don't want to look them up. I don't want to know what they've done because then it will cause me to sit in judgment. Whether I want to or not, it really does. It would for anybody. And so it's having that private information, you know, that I just don't want.

So there's a beauty shop there at the prison. There's braiding to be done on the unit. There's continuous education they can take. There's, they can, I can hire them as my master instructor inside. And then sometimes, and suddenly there's some miraculous thing that just like last, a year ago today, one of my students, she was the first one to get out on the domestic violence. survivorship and she got out a year ago today. She had been locked up for 35, 35 years, and she's a free woman today. A new law passed and so you never know. What do you mean by domestic violence survivorship? So she, it was, in Oklahoma, domestic violence was not a means

for like self-defense or anything like that. It was not, you weren't able to use that in any of the trial. It was like, oh, well, that's what you. you think it is. And so we're going to call it that not domestic violence survivorship. So a lady on our board wrote the bill for domestic violence survivorship. And the lady I'm talking about, our graduate, she was the first one in Oklahoma to be released on that. They heard her court hearing all over again and deemed that there was enough evidence to show that it was in self-defense. And she walked out after 35 years in prison. How long ago did that law get changed? Like last year?

That's crazy. She's saying before last year, say a husband and wife are fighting and he's, you know, really getting after her and she ends up killing him or hurting him in some way. You better have a lot of proof. She would still be convicted. Yep. We have one lady right now, not in my class, but at the prison. And they had a paper trail, like for years of him abusing her and, you know, protective orders and all the, just. a tremendous paper trail proving.

And they said no. So they're still, you know, they're still working it out and everything. And not to talk about all the details of the case, but not everybody agrees with that new law that happened, you know, that came into effect. Yikes. So it's new. It's new to Oklahoma. It wasn't a means of defense or, you know, so in a hearing. But they're working on it.

So what you were asking me about, why would I give it away? There's still purpose in our lives. As long as we have breath in our lungs, they're still purpose. So whatever they want to do with it. So obviously, yeah, for a lifer, obviously could change their life doing your school, but also too, like the Michigan prison, one of the reasons they're doing it too is it changes the environment. It does. So you have these completely transformed people who are populating your prison.

Like it suddenly changes the entire environment in the prison. Yeah. Because, I mean, if they're not getting out. I mean, what are they doing, just sitting on their bunk or they're fighting or how much school can you go to? How much college? How many times can you go to college or Bible study or, you know. You're either making the environment better or you're making it worse. That's right. Like, I'm sure you've heard people say a line to like your marriage is either getting better or it's getting worse.

It's not static. Right. It's not. It's not. And it's growing. It's a living, breathing thing, you know. And that's why growing. Now the whole yard knows about us.

And it's pretty gratifying, you know, that they know my standards are high. If they come in there and we have like a little list of rules, you can't sag your pants, you can't come in here cussing. Well, I don't want to allow for it. I'll put them on the no service list. And so that seems firm. But it's, I have to let them know that I'm serious about what we're doing. And they come in and they respect what we're doing.

And, you know, so. I was going to ask you about the family, the victim's family. We ended up moving on to another topic, but it seems like they never reached out to you, and maybe you've never reached out to them with my sense of what you're saying. And would you reach out to them just to share what's happened with your story or more out of respect? You don't think that's right. And do you think they've heard about you? How do you process all that?

I would imagine that they have, I would imagine that they've kind of, I don't want to say, kept up with me, or maybe have or aware of some of the things that I'm doing, you know, I'd be open to it. It's scary to think about that, but out of respect, I don't want to overstep my bounds. If that's something that they sought, in a heartbeat, I would be open to that. But I want to honor them and their terms and what that might look like, you know. We can't undo. It's shameful.

you know, in that regard. I just, you can't, what do you even say? Anything else do you want to cover, Christy? I want to say one other thing, and I say this one. I finish every other little thing that I do to all your lovely people out there. If you have someone that's incarcerated, if you have written them off, or maybe have feelings about not talking with them, or you just can't forgive them, I just implore. that they would reach out, fill out visitation papers, forgive, time is short. They need your love and

support. And I would just encourage you if you've ever felt doing something crazy in your life, you feel called to prison ministry or starting a business or doing something rather than what you're doing. We're not just born to work and pay taxes and die like you have a purpose. God has a purpose for you get off the couch and go do it. Do it afraid. Do it crazy. Do it without a dollar. Tell 4,000 people and just trust that God's got you on the other end of it. So that's what I would say. And for the people who haven't reached out to their family members or friends yet, reminds me of the line. Like that kind of hatred is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. That's exactly right. And it's like you end up dying. That's exactly right.

And, you know, they just need, they need their family. That's it. I see so many women cry at the loss of relationship. You know, maybe it was a stupid mistake. We all have made mistakes. Maybe sometimes we didn't get caught. If you're speeding down the highway, guess what? You're breaking the law. Maybe, you know, maybe it's something more.

Maybe if you cheat on your taxes, you're breaking the law. You know, maybe they just got caught. And, I mean, in all truthfulness, you know, we're all human and we all need each other. You know, God didn't even send out the disciples one at a time. There were two by two. You know, woe to you that falls in a ditch. You don't have anybody to pick you up. That's a sad, scary place to be.

So, you know, I just would encourage, that would be one of the biggest things, you know. Just reach out to your people if they're locked up, you know? Man, even if it's something short and sweet, you know, maybe, I just feel like that they need, we all need, whether we're incarcerated or not, we all need family support and encouragement, but especially there's just something about it. Like, man, to be a fly on the wall when they get a letter or a card or something from a long-lost family member or a kid,

it's life-changing. I've seen it happen, you know. You are such a beautiful soul, and I think our listeners will have seen that in the podcast, so I don't think anybody's super judging you. But in case they are, it reminds me of the line there about the grace of God go I. And like how close have all of us been, I mean, how many times I've almost hit a car, right? And the person thankfully moved.

Like, I don't even know, dozens of times. Like, we've all been, and that's not excusing what happened or any of that. But, like, we have all been so lucky, so many times where we could have been in the exact same boat or a mistake that I did more actively make. Right. And it didn't lead to the bad outcome that it could have. And we all should, you know, and I'm sure you've even had those experiences, you know, post-prison, too. Right. Right.

Oh, yeah. There by the grace of God go I. and I'm so lucky that this didn't turn out. Well, and just having a felon label, I know for Oklahoma, you know, historically for the last 25 years, Oklahoma's ranked number one and number two, you know, for the highest female incarceration rate. And you can check that out too. And that has been the actual truth. And so why is that, you know, and some of our laws and our rules are way different than other states and very punitive sometimes? and so the sentencing ranges are very large.

And it can take, you know, one incident, one incident can cost you everything. It costs me everything. Your home, your marriage, your kids, your job, your security. It can be gone to the dirt in a matter of seconds, you know? So, again, I just would say, man, if God's tugging on somebody's heart about this, I just do it, just whether it's right or call or whatever, you know, go visit. That's what I would say. Love on some people, get off the couch and go do something, you know?

You saying just to remind me sometimes I kind of think we're the Nike version of service. Like our version is do what you can. I know, yeah. I mean, that's it. What are we waiting on, you know? Who's coming to save us? I know. We may be the only one.

If you see a need you've been called, maybe nobody else is called to it. Maybe that thing that wrecks your heart, nobody else sees except for you, and it's loud, and it's in your spirit or right in your face to do something. Nobody else is coming. It may be you, you know, so. You don't want that regret sitting on the rocking porch at 80 years old. Like, what if I had done this? Man, I think about that.

People have said, what if you had said no? I wouldn't know you right now. I said, I wouldn't know anybody right now because I could have run from that felon label and gone to hide or move someplace else instead of going back to my community. you know, and I'm so grateful I said yes. I said yes to a crazy, you know, quitting my job with all the benefits and everything else. I mean, that's crazy. I guess it was crazy for Noah to build a arc too until it started to rain, you know?

So. If people want to contact you, if they're interested in donating, volunteering, starting this in their community, whether through you, guys or on their own, would you be open to sharing your email address for people to reach out to? Yes, absolutely. So it's Rise Program Inc. at gmail.com. R-I-S-E-Program, I-N-C at Gmail. Well, thank you, Christy. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed getting to know you. Thanks for our friend, Jennifer Eckert, introducing us. That's my sister, yeah. All right, Jennifer texted me yesterday. You'll love working with her before she and I met. I would be

in the prison lobby, ready to check in for a volunteer shift, and in-where-come Christy wearing black leather pants, high heels, and carrying all kinds of foam mannequin heads and other strange supplies. It's totally not what you typically see going into prison. So I wondered, who is this woman? It has been such a gift to work alongside her inside the prison and out. She's the real deal, and I love her dearly. Well, I love her. I think she is, wow. I mean, she is such an amazing woman and just so impressive. She's like, I'm going for my doctorate this time. And next week, I'm, you know, I'm signing up. I'm going overseas and I'm doing this and just to watch her. I mean, Jennifer's great, but I was more interested in her interesting description of you. Yes. Well, it's leather pants on today. It's actual factual, as I say at the prison. So yes, I do. I, I, I mean, I grew up.

before to actual factual. Actual factual. I grew up on Soul Train. You know, I used to get in trouble for staying up until midnight watching it and I always love the clothes and the music and all the stuff. And so I don't know. I just have a unique, uh, unique flavor to me, I guess. And you kind of remind me of the woman and almost famous.

I've not seen it for years, but I need to go. I need to revisit that. Yeah. I love it. But no, that's actual. That's true. And, yeah, I just, I don't know. Just don't take no for an answer.

I mean, uh, The things that we do never had happened before in Oklahoma, so I don't know. You know, you just do what you need to do, I guess. The Rise program, 286 graduates and students. One, only one has gone back to prison. The recidivism rate so far of 0.3% better than anything I've heard of out there. It's pretty amazing. And two, I think it's a great example for us, too.

I mean, people know we've told all kinds of scale of programs, some things that help out one person or 10 or thousands or 100,000. But I think this is an interesting scale, too. Like, you can start something. It doesn't have to be the biggest nonprofit in the world. But to change 286 lives is extraordinary. So what do you show me right now? This is my class. Okay.

Do you want to, in case we feature it, or you'll probably send me the picture after. Yeah. That would be awesomeness. And it looks like they're having fun in there. We have a great time. We have a great time. Well, you're amazing, Christy. It's a blessing to get to know you.

I'm glad you can have a triumphant return to Memphis. Yes. Yes, it was great. It was great being back. And I'm so, thank you guys. You treated me so well and have done so many wonderful things and stirred up so many memories for me. And just the opportunity, the honor to be here. I'm really, I feel privileged and very humbled.

All right. Well, you guys heard her. Go do what you can. Let's roll. Get off the couch. Get off the couch. Thank you. Bye-bye. And thank you for joining us this week.

If Christy Luther has inspired you in general or better yet to take action by transforming your greatest pain into purpose, starting something like the Rise program with your unique passion and abilities, volunteering somewhere with them, donating to Rise, or something else entirely, let me know. I want to hear about it. You can write me anytime. at Bill at normalfolks.us, and I will respond. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with friends and on social. Subscribe to the podcast. Rate it, review it. Join the army at normal folks. Any and all of these things that will help us grow, an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. Until next time, do what you can do. What if mind control is real? If you can control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to

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