An Army of Normal Folks - How Your “Good Intentions” Keep People Stuck in Poverty

Episode Date: October 13, 2026

In this episode, James Whitford, co-founder of Watered Gardens and True Charity, breaks down why most well-meaning charity accidentally traps people in dependency instead of helping them be self sufficient. He’ll walk us through what true charity looks like. This one will change how you think about giving, volunteering, and what it actually means to believe in someone. ARMY ACTIONS Subscribe to the podcast and rate & review us! Signup to join the Army, visit NormalFolks.org Join or start an ANF local service club at https://normalfolks.org/service-clubs/ Take The 10 Level Challenge, "the hero's journey for service" at 10LevelChallenge.org Record a testimonial or recommend a guest - https://army.storytap.com/906/start/anf-listeners?epdescription Follow us on all socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/armyofnormalfolks/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@armyofnormalfolks Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ArmyofNormalFolks X: https://x.com/armynormalfolks LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/an-army-of-normal-folks/Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/#joinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I would encourage your listeners to memorize these five steps to dependency. They're really important and they're pretty easy to remember. If you give something to somebody once, they'll appreciate it. But if you give the same thing to them again a handout with no expectations, they're going to anticipate that it's going to come a third time. If you give it to them a third time, a handout, then they're going to have an expectation that it's going to come a fourth time. If you give it a fourth time, they'll feel entitled to it.

and the fifth time they'll be dependent on euphoric. There are five steps to paternalism that I feel like go along with five steps to dependency. The giver, when a giver gives that first time, there's a sense of exhilaration. It's just like, oh, that felt so good. The second time that I give that same thing to a person, no requirement, no expectations, right? Now I'm feeling useful. Hey, you know what, I'm useful to this person, you know? and then the third time, I'm going to feel necessary.

The fourth time, I'm essential. I'm essential. This person really, it needs me. I'm essential. And the fifth step to that is paternalism. But the continual, perpetual crisis relief handout model drives this codependency that lands in dependency for the receiver and paternalism for the giver. And this is incredibly unhealthy. We'll be right back.

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Download the free. I'm Melissa Jeltson. And in my new podcast, what happened to her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too. quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival.

The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it and he got a

year. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to what happened to her on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard a count after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this. The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize him to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good france.

I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examine the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body. But no one will find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly.

He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff And I said maybe she'll find out where this girl is I saw him violent Backhanded a bow And that's exactly what made us all think He had something to do with him The clock is ticking down

And the woods are calling There are a lot of demons in Putnam County But I've met the devil And he's real I'm Paul Soliton off, and this is season two of the Devil's Quarry. Listen to The Devil's Quarry Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear The Devil's Quarry Season 2 ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts.

Shortly before 6 o'clock a.m. on November 13, 1991, Annette's mother, and her two young sons found her unresponsive inside their apartment. Investigators ruled the case a homicide. Over the years, detectives continued searching for answers, but the case eventually went cold. This is Hunter Gilmore, host of Hunting for Answers, a True Crime podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told

and to the questions that still remain. As the years passed, detectives continued working the case. more than three decades after Annette's death. No one has been held accountable. Annette's mother, Frida Scott, spent years hoping to see her daughter's case solved. She never saw that day come. Annette Jones's case remains unsolved. Listen to Hunting for Answers, a True Crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

James Whitford is the co-founder of True Charity, a national movement. of almost 300 charities, which is amazing that it's gotten to that, that helps the charities move beyond handouts. They believe trap people in dependency to empowering people instead toward self-sufficiency. He's an expert in how not to make your charity toxic and how to make it true. You and your wife opened to rescue Misson in Joplin, Missouri in 2000. You were serving thousands of people in crisis, but it wasn't working. I think that's the first step to your arrival at where we are today going back 26 years ago.

Tell us about that work. Well, and I even want to back up a little bit before that because it was... If Alex put together an inaccurate prep, it's on now. It's not inaccurate at all, but... Okay. But what I want to... By the way, Alex showed up. Yeah, I see that.

He's late. A crap. Hey, Alex. How you doing? Hey, guys. Welcome in. They actually shut down. It's a single lane highway around Holly Springs on seven right now.

Yeah. So I need to add 15 minutes of my trip to Memphis. You know classic Americans in Clement weather policy, right? What's that? Leave early. So you might want to. Yeah, I woke up at three, four hours to work today. So, okay.

You're a timeout. You're not allowed to ask any questions because you're late. And accordingly, the prep goes back before 2000. Okay, James. Well, let me remind everybody in the question I asked. Oh, okay, sure. Because Alex, I'm ruthfully interrupted this by being late. You just brought me up.

You guys opened a mission in Joplin in 2000, and you're working your butts off, and your heart's in the right place, and you want to serve and you want to help, but it's not working. Well, so. But apparently something even before that. Well, yeah, and I think it's important for your listeners to understand. understand the... They're your listeners now, James. Okay, our listeners, right?

So important for our listeners to understand that compassion is incredibly important. Now, compassion can lead to all sorts of things. Some good and some not so good. But if we don't have compassion to start with, where we really feel for our fellow man, we're not going to get anywhere.

Which is one of the reasons why government fails at this, because government's not an institution that can have compassion. People in it can be as compassion as they want, but no institution can be loyal and no institution can be compassion. People in it can. But institutionally, that's not their function. Right. So it's very typical, I think, for people like my wife and I,

to about 30 years old say, you know, we're feeling compassion. We want to do something. We're young. Let's save the world. And you start to do something, right? And that's not a bad thing. It's like I'm glad that people are compelled by compassion, and we certainly were. There was no wisdom really with that compassion at that time.

There was just a lot of heart. Again, I do not want to undermine the importance of that. I mean, people need compassion. But we got into the work and realized within a few years that, yeah, there are now thousands of people come through our doors. We were basically a redistribution center. we'd call out to our community and say, hey, there's a lot of need. How do you know there's a lot of need?

Well, there's a long line of people. Okay, well, so can you give us stuff because we want to hand more of it out? That was basically the model, right? And we were loving on people, but there were so many coming through our doors, and we just realized this is not working. What was it?

When you say a mission, what was the function? Well, yeah, when it started out, it was just a small little 900 square foot room with stuff in it. I mean, clothing, miscellaneous things. You know, people might donate diapers. We'd give them out to single moms. You know, some furnishings for people who needed help with furnishings in their houses. I mean, so that's the kind of thing that was happening. There was nothing that was

developmental in nature. That almost seems oddly transactional. It is. It's very transactional one way, really, more than anything, just a one-way transactional hand down. You show up, I'll give you You show up, you say what you need. If we have it, we give it to you. We might pray for you on the way out the door or whatever. Try to be a source of encouragement for you. But truth be told, we just weren't seeing the outcomes. And so we made a shift. Now, this was probably, oh, a handful of years into it. I have to ask you a question. Good. You were a giver. You were useful. Did you start to see yourself as necessary? Oh, yeah. You start to see yourself as essential. To some people. Absolutely.

So, in fact, taking from your own writing, had you developed into journalism at that point? Absolutely. That's so interesting. Absolutely. Those are your words. This happened to us. And now a few messages from our generous sponsors.

But first, thanks for tuning in to an army of normal folks, where our mission is this, make service easier for all of us, and together change our country. We're announcing something new today that I'd love to invite you to. We've launched a place where you can record a short video

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Radio stations. Everywhere you go. The podcasts everyone's talking about. All in one place. And it's free. I'm at heart radio. Whatever you want to hear. Listen anytime.

Anywhere. Music, radio. Podcasts. Unlimited audio. It's on the free. One app. No subscription. Always free.

Grab the free app. I'm Melissa Jeltson. And in my new podcast, what happened to her? I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival.

The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place. place with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these brave things

and came out and spoke about it and he got a year. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to what happened to her on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard account after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this.

The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize them to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good france. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examine the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body.

But no one will find it. He acted friendly. He talked. friendly. He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and they said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw him violent, backhanded him, pow! And that's exactly what made us all think he had something to do with him. The clock is ticking down, and the woods are calling.

There are a lot of demons in Putnam County, but I've met the devil, and he's real. I'm Paul Solitarev, and this is Season 2 of The Devil's Quarry. Listen to The Devil's Quarry Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear The Devil's Quarry Season 2 add free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Shortly before 6 o'clock a.m. on November 13th, 1991, Annette's mother and her two young sons found her unresponsive inside their apartment. Investigators ruled the case a homicide. Over the years, detectives continued searching for answers, but the case eventually went cold. This is Hunter Gilmore, host of Hunting for Answers, a True Crime podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told and to the questions that still remain. As the years passed, detectives

continued working the case. But more than three decades after Annette's death, no one has been held accountable. Annette's mother, Freda Scott, spent years hoping to see her daughter's case solved. She never saw that day come. Annette Jones's case remains unsolved. Listen to Hunting for Answers a True Crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Okay, so then you decided to make a shift. Well, we did. We decided to make a shift. I mean, books like the tragedy of American compassion, toxic charity, they were instrumental in that.

I had an encounter with a homeless individual that was very life-changing for me. Well, I had begun to feel compelled to go and be on the streets with people. And so we'd been in a ministry for a handful of years at that point. And I thought, I don't want to do this. I mean, at that point, we had five kids in the house, and so I ignored it. And then I felt it again. I was like, I'm supposed to go out and, you know, be with people on the streets for some period of time.

And I shelved it again. I ignored it. And the third time that I felt it, I thought, I better tell my wife. And so I said, Marcia, I think God's telling me I'm supposed to go and embed myself kind of out on the streets with people. And immediately she said, oh, yeah? I think God will tell me before you go out onto the streets. And I was thankful for that because it wasn't like something I was wanting to do.

But that very night, Coach, we were reading a book called Crazy Love by Francis Chan. And the very chapter that we were reading together that night opened with the story of a guy who left his home and went out onto the streets. So I did the next day, nothing but the clothes on my back, walked everywhere, no cell phone. I just embedded myself. For what period? A couple of weeks. Weeks? A couple of weeks.

I was out on the streets. So you purposely left. No phone, no money, no nothing. No phone, no money. Let me live as though I'm trying to serve. Couldn't take a ride anywhere. I was never in a car. I walked everywhere.

And you learn a lot when you do something like that. But this one encounter with a homeless man named Ralph, it was in the evening time, and we're sitting on a curb together. And he has a sandwich. And it's already cut into. and he said, would you like half of my sandwich, James? Now, all I'd had that morning was a donut, so I was hungry. And the thing that, and if you put yourself in that situation, I mean, some people would say,

they would probably feel what I felt, which was like, no, I'm not going to take your sandwich. I mean, gosh, Ralph, you're the guy that we've been, like, helping for a long time now. I mean, I know I'm out here on the streets with you, but I mean, I've got a place I could go if I had to, and I'm not going to take your sandwich from you. But you're hungry. You're the ministry and I'm the minister. See, it was that paternalism thing. It was there with me.

And I said, and I thought, I didn't say it, but I remember thinking you're the ministry and I'm the minister. But I was so hungry that evening that I broke bread with Ralph. And when I did, something happened, I realized that I had been treating Ralph and thousands of other people as objects of my good intentions rather than subjects who have autonomy, agency, and capacity to contribute. And that was a changer for me.

And I realized we've got to change the way we're doing ministry. So we started a minute... If you hadn't accepted the half of the sandwich, you're saying to Ralph, you have nothing to offer me. Exactly. And if you tell people in that position

they have nothing to offer and they hear it enough. What can they be other than takers? And live out a purposeless life. That's such a good story. That was the damaging thing with our charity at that time. It was not calling people into purpose. And that night, Ralph, had a purpose. It was to help me.

So it was a beautiful moment. It was a transformative one. and that along with some reading and just, you know, objectively looking at the fact that we were not solving problems. We just made a change. And we turned our whole ministry into an earn it model. And even today, we still have our worth shop. We call it a worth shop because we believe work awakens worth in people's lives. And this is a place where folks will go who are in need. They may not have any cash, but they've got something to give. And they'll work in one of our social enterprises to earn the very basics. Things that you and I and many of our listeners today would say,

you should just hand that out. Look, it's food, it's shelter, it's clothing. These are basics. You should just give it away. But I say, wait, if a person's able to do a little bit of something for something that he needs, isn't that more dignifying? And so our worth shop allows for people to keep their dignity is they earn vouchers that they can then spend at our thrift store, at our shelter, for nights of shelter, clothing they need, whatever it might be. So instead of standing on a corner begging guy for a dollar, they can actually go do something and add value to something to trade that for their needs. Not only that, but at the end of it, we're able to shake somebody's hand and say,

hey, thank you. You did a good job. You did a good job today, and I thank you for your help. I'm just thinking through your story, right? If I'm a guy showing up getting free stuff all the time, and all of a sudden you tell me, nope, you got to either work for it or you got to show up with a few dollars. Now, your $5 may buy $50 of the groceries,

but you're going to be in on whatever, and I'm used to just showing up getting free junk. That's right. I may not like that. so much. Yeah. Because you're trying to break a, a, a, it's a bondage. Dependency is like a bondage and so. So you're, you're trying to break that. So some people are like, thousands of them didn't, forget them. Thousands of them didn't even come back through our doors. Literally. Thousands. Thousands. So we went from seeing about 4,000 people a year coming through our doors for handouts.

Uh-huh. To like 1,200 that where we were doing. better work. But most people would say, you've chased out the very people trying to help. You failed. No, no, no, no. People would say that. Yeah, but what was the good that we were doing? We just went through these five steps to dependency and paternalism. We weren't doing any good. We were trapping people in poverty. We were not incentivizing them in a way that's positive or helping them develop what they need to escape poverty. We were just keeping them there. And so we, yeah, that changed. there were 2,800 people who went somewhere else, and that was a big problem because we knew they're just going down the street. To the next handout place or to some government agency that's going to hand out stuff.

So what do we need to do? And we launched true charity. That was the whole impetus for the drive behind it. So did you recognize when you went from 4,000 or 1,200 that you were actually being successful? Well, right. Did that feel, that had to have felt like, that had to have challenged your hypothesis on how you needed to help those that are underserved. It had to challenge you a little when people started showing up. Or were you so steadfast in your belief that this was the right thing, that that was okay?

The latter. We were so steadfast in the belief. We understood at that point what we needed to do. And we became principled charity leaders. So this was the principal. And I told, I remember telling our team that we may be all sitting around here drinking coffee together with nobody coming through our doors. But we knew it was the right thing to do. And so we refused for the sake of being able to tell our donors, We've got a lot of people coming through our doors or, you know, being able to say this is how much food we gave away or handed out.

We knew we were no longer going to do that. We were going to shift our model. And outcomes improved. Can you talk about some of the success rates that you saw with the change rather than nobody's life being transformed to, you know, what percentage of people's lives did you see transformed? The first thing that we noticed when we made this shift where we were calling. people into contribution and requiring something in exchange. When was for a timeline? I'm trying to pick up.

That would have been... Oh, 2007. Okay. Would have been the time when we really put that into more of a full swing. All right. Yeah. All right. And so I'm sorry.

You started to see... Well, we started to see people going to work. And so, I mean... Holy moly. Poverty is constantly. complex, and people can be in it for a lot of different reasons, right? But there's one common denominator to escaping poverty, and it's a job. You cannot get out of poverty without a job. And so that was one of the things we began to look for. How well are we doing it, helping people

move from, you know, unemployment to a job? Which, i.e. is dependency to independence? It is. Absolutely. If you're not employed, you're dependent to some extent. And we really found that kick-starting the work engine in a person when they come through the doors of a mission, rather than saying, hey, we see a charity case. Tell me what your need is. We've got some of that in the back room. We'll give it to you. God bless you on your way out the door. Instead of that, as people come in, we say, hey, we see capacity in you. We would like for you to partner with us today. Here's what we've got to do, and we'd love to help you with what you need. And when you start that reciprocity, that exchange, right, there's a value that's awakened, dignity that's awakened. It's like, wow, I can be a part of this. I can contribute. And yes, you can. And you can contribute in the greater community as well. So let's talk about employment. And then so we found that employment outcomes were much better when we kickstarted employment at the mission right on the front end. If we want work and if we want employment as an outcome, which is very common, why not start with work on the front end as soon as possible?

It really does sound so simple, doesn't it? It's not that complicated, but it's hard for people to make that shift. Oh, for sure, because so much of that shift. I mean, you're not breaking down one human being's world. You're in oftentimes breaking generational mindset towards society. It's true. Now, more than half of the folks that are coming through our mission, jobless, will leave with a job. But it could be a lot better.

And this is something we ought to talk about is the real conflict, the real tension that exists in so many people who are having to make a decision every day, whether to take James and his true charity network across the nation up on the challenge of contributing or whether I should go this other route. Which is easier and free. Which is easier and free. But it will keep me where I am. Yes.

But we're economic creatures. And if I feel like I can get what I need today without having to do a whole lot for it, that's typically where I'm going to go. A good example would be a guy I'm meeting with right now regularly had just about a month ago started these weekly meetings with him. He's in our respite unit. So we, and at our mission, we have a handful of different ministries in southwest Missouri underwatered gardens. One of them is a respite unit for folks coming out of the hospital finishing recovery from a surgery or an illness who have no home. So Kevin, was in our respite unit and I met him. And he said, you know, he had two shoulder surgeries

from a seizure where he fell and fractured both shoulders. Wow. And so he's going through it. And he said, you know, someone said I ought to consider disability because of my shoulders. And so, and he, and at that point, he didn't know who I was or what all I believed in. But he's telling me about this. And he ends up going to the disability attorney. who then wants to do an assessment. He goes to his assessment. He comes back and he says, you know, James, it was interesting. I went for this disability assessment. And they weren't that interested in my shoulders. They were asking me all sorts of psych questions about trauma in my background, how I'm feeling about life and all this. And I said, well, Kevin, it's a lot easier to

qualify you for disability through a mental health issue than it is a physical debility. That's why they're looking at that. And he's going, yeah, I'm thinking I might need to move in that direction, concerned, I don't know if I'm going to be able to get back to work or not. Right there. They talked to them in. Right there. That's the tension that millions of Americans are in the middle of right now. They're dealing with guys like me saying, Kevin, let's talk about the future and how bright it can be. Now, thankfully, at our third meeting. But on the flip side, it's almost, I'm envisioning the metaphor of the angel and the devil on this guy's broken shoulders. Yes. You're trying to say you have value and can do it while there's another person say, oh, I got a much easier route

for you. Just be a dependent. I have seen it time and time and time again. I have watched people be pulled. One man named Scott was in our long-term residential recovery program. We call Forge. And he was entering into the work phase. This is months into the program. And he's getting excited about it. And he's even shared in front of a group. I'm excited about going to work. and then he received a disability determination letter from an application he'd put in long before he entered into our program. And they finally determined, okay, we're going to give you back pay, thousands of dollars. $4,000 of back pay would come to him and a check for about $980 a month forevermore if he wanted it. He sat in my office with his head and his hands trembling under the weight of that decision.

As I said, Scott, you know you can do it, and we know you can too. and you don't want to walk off into a life of dependency like this. And he did. He left that day and decided to take the $4,000 of back pay and $980-some-odd dollars a month from a federal government who doesn't know a squat thing about Scott, nor does it love him like we did. So these are the rent-up benefits.

The federal government's own poverty level says if you're not making, I think, a minimum of $23,000 a year, you're in poverty. so the government is actually sentencing him by that gift at $12,000 a year to a life until death of poverty. Now he'll be able to work part-time, but he would never work full-time. But you know what I'll say. And that creates this cliff kind of effect, because if I want to go work full-time, I'm going to lose my disability benefits, so I don't want to do that. Now, it's not, I shouldn't be picking on Social Security Administration so much.

I mean, this happens in private charity. as well as public charity, we create disincentives for people to step into a flourishing life. Did it break your heart when he walked out your door? It did. It broke my heart. Because you knew. Oh, yeah. And I felt like a failure too because part of my job, and I think part of every job of a person engaging folks who are in poverty is to be a source of inspiration. We need to inspire people and be beacons of hope for people. It's what we long to do. But there are perverse incentives that are incredible.

incredibly strong that pull people away. Do you wonder where he is now? I do. Absolutely. And there are many others that we've seen that happen to. But we have a lot of great stories like Kevin, who's now decided he's going to move toward work. And a lot of that has to do with the personal relationship that we've developed over the last month. I love that. We'll be right back.

The music you love at radio stations. Everywhere you go. The podcasts everyone's talking about. All in one place. And it's free. Whatever you want to hear. Listen anytime, anywhere. Music, radio, podcasts, unlimited audio.

It's on the free IHurt Radio app. Let's go! One app, no subscription. Always free. Grab the free app. IHard Radio. Everywhere you go. Always free.

Download the free IHR Radio app today. I'm Melissa Jeltson, and in my new podcast, what happened to her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose death. were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights,

I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies.

She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to what happened to her on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard a count after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this.

The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize him to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good trance. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examine the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body.

But no one will find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly. He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and they said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw him violent, backhanded her, pow! And that's exactly what made us all think he had something to do with him.

The clock is ticking down, and the woods are calling. There are a lot of demons in Putnam County, but I've met the devil, and he's real. I'm Paul Solitone. And this is season two of the devil's quarry. Listen to the devil's quarry season two on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear The Devil's Quarry Season 2 add free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Shortly before 6 o'clock a.m. on November 13, 1991, Annette's mother, and her two young sons found her unresponsive inside their apartment.

Investigators ruled the case a homicide. Over the years, detectives continued searching for answers, but the case eventually went cold. This is Hunter Gilmore, host of Hunting for Answers A True Crime Podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told and to the questions that still remain. As the years passed, detectives continued working the case. But more than three decades after Annette's death, no one has been held accountable. Annette's mother, Freda Scott, spent years hoping to see her daughter's case solved. She never saw that day come.

Annette Jones's case remains unsolved. Listen to Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So I'm envisioning a father standing in a lot. before Christmas. I see him around Memphis all the time, especially as Christmas and Thanksgiving and stuff comes along. He's a toy giveaway. And I think it's wonderful that this four, five, six, seven-year-old child

who never asked what AiryCode or ZipCode to be born into, who that Providence had him born into that zip code versus the zip code. versus the zip code my children were born into is going to get a gift on Christmas. First of all, let me just say that. Okay? But I also think of the father standing in that line, getting that free toy to take it home to that little child who did not deserve any of what they were born into, that that father is reminded as he takes that toy that he cannot provide for his own children.

Yeah. one, what do you think that does to a man whose number one job is to protect him proud for their family, being reminded by this gift that he's having to stand in the line for to provide for his job? What does that say to that man? And what have you built as the antithesis to what I think is that very conflicted and disrupted picture? Yeah. Well, I think it communicates that he's not needed. I think that's probably what many men would feel.

I'm not needed. Somebody else is going to step in and take care of my family, which is something that happened in a much larger scale in the mid-60s, when there were many programs launched to help good intentions, to help single parents, but unintentionally disempowered the father. And so someone else can take care of my family. The drive to hang together to be interdependent and within family and community was greatly disrupted.

Now, that's a big public welfare picture, right, from the mid-60s, from then even until now. But I think at the private level, when we're seeing Christmas giveaway programs, right, we can change those. And in fact, we've developed, along with scores of other model action plans, one, it's called a Christmas market model action plan. A Christmas market model action plan. You bet. It sounds like something Alex would come up. With an acronym to it. We call it.

What is it called? Well, it's a Christmas market model action plan. We call them Maps model action plan. We do. But these are, in these model action plans, we take the ideas that you and I are discussing, and we make sure that people understand the principle that's there. But then how do we actually do it? So these are very practical guides. How do I take my Christmas giveaway program that the church, we've been doing this for years this way?

And now we're feeling like maybe we should change it or we heard about, we heard the podcast and decided we needed to change the. the way we're doing. We actually picked up the bullet and read it and got conflicted about what we're doing this the right way. So we have a, we have basically how to take the program and turn into a Christmas market where people can contribute a little bit or they can spend some time earning what they need. Now we've been doing Christmas markets out of our mission for years, coach, and it's beautiful. It's so, it, it solves the problem. Parents and grandparents coming in, sitting down doing a little bit of something for the gifts that they want. And what they do, they just shop for the gifts, but rather than being price tagged, they're time tagged. They're time tagged. This one takes 15 minutes. That one takes

20 minutes, whatever it might be. So if you want this gift for your child, you got to put in 20 minutes. You get to shop for the gift you want, and then you get to earn it and own it. So you're the one who gets to give it. Can I go work for four or five days and get time vouchers saved up so that I can go then spend on stuff? Oh, yeah, sure. That could be the way that people arrange it. That is crazy cool. Yeah, absolutely.

And it's really neat to hear some people that are in the middle of shopping going, okay, so this one takes 15 and that one's 30. And so I've got until they're actually going through the same decision-making process that you and I go through every day when we buy something or spend time earning something. And that's important. We should be welcoming people regardless of whether they're in. in poverty, you're not into markets. It's also teaching value.

It's teaching value. Absolutely. And it allows parents to retain dignity rather than to feel like somebody else is stepping in doing their job. And on Christmas Day, when that child opens that gift, that mother, grandmother, grandfather, father, get to say, I earned that for my child. You nailed it.

Now, we've heard those comments so many times that makes parents. I'm happy at Christmas. Absolutely. Feel so much better about it. I bet they also make sure their child takes care of their toys. If someone gives you something to give your kid and your kid breaks it, well, it didn't cost you anything. Yep.

But if you give something that you had to go on for your kid, you're going to tell them to put their stuff up in their closet to take care of it, to quit abusing it. I mean, it starts to create a sense of... Stewardship. Perfect one. Yeah. I mean, it is exactly that.

We steward things better if we are invested, if we've invested something in them. This is why backpack giveaway programs, do the kids care about that stuff? I've worked in the schools for 30 years. The two things that drive me the craziest are backpacks and now laptop giveaways. Oh, my. I've watched. Look, do you remember being in 19th? 10th grade? It's been a while, but I remember. I was an impetuous. And so are most of them. Now,

there were good things about me, but my brain had developed. I didn't understand a lot of stuff, right? And I certainly didn't appreciate how hard my single mother was working to put clothes on my back. And I would leave one shoe in the locker room and not know where it was. I mean, that's just what kids do, right? But when I came home, I was busted. Because my mom worked her butt off to get that stuff for me if I came home and tore my stuff up, right? Absolutely. I watch free backpacks and free laptops. I literally watch it all the time be slung across study hall floors or swung into locker rooms.

You see the going around everywhere because a parent doesn't give a crap if the kid comes home for it because they got nothing in it. That's exactly right. It's just true. I see it all the time, and it infuriates me. I'm like, somebody really want attention, spent a ton of money and time and after put this together for you, and you're just throwing around like it's nothing, but then I'm thinking, there's no sweat off their back. Yeah. Oh, that's exactly right. I mean, so let's change the model. Let's change the model where parents and kids come in and do something, a little something, and then they can actually choose some things that they want to put in their backpack.

That's the other important thing with all of this. So you do the backpack things, but you earn what goes into it for back to school bags. Exactly. Why not? Why not? And then all of a sudden you don't lose your pins or you care a little bit more about it. Yeah. Not only did you earn it, but then I also got to pick it out.

So I got to shop a little bit. So there's some choice. I chose this. I was told what I was going to have. I got to choose it. Then that, not to bunny trail too much here, but choice. is very empowering. And we've got to realize when we're talking about people who are in poverty, deep poverty, often have backgrounds of trauma, neglect, and abuse where they have not had

choice. They've been controlled. Why would we want to transition people who've been under control like that into a charitable system where they're still controlled? Why not empower people with choice and autonomy and help them understand you have agency and decisions to make today. And so that kind of reciprocal activity and charity that I'm talking about gives people choice. Oh, I got to earn a voucher from the worth shop today. What do I want to spend it on? Now, it's your choice. And so it empowers people. Choice empowers people. It's a very important principle. You were here a funny story the other day. So I guess it was around winter last year in Oxford, a friend of mine organized the coat drive for the schools where they would give coats.

Yeah. To all these kids. And the kids didn't want it. They didn't. They wouldn't take the coats, even though they didn't own under coats. Do you know why? Because. Because they wanted hoodies.

Like, it's not cool right now to wear a coat. It's cool to wear a hoodie. But it's kind of our paternalism. Like, hey, you don't, you kids don't have coats. I'm going to give you coats. And it's like, what do you want the coats? Well, we're going to ask you what you want it. It's an entitlement mentality, really.

And that's an interesting thing to think of step four in the whole five steps to dependency. If you continue to give things to people repetitively every year it's the code program or whatever, I'm suddenly beginning to think I'm entitled to it. And if you were to ask a person, why do you think you're entitled to this? They would say, I don't know, but I guess it's because you keep giving it to me. So I must be entitled. I mean, it's the charity that's proving the intention. entitlement. And so, yeah, we've got to change it.

Another thing you've said that I've never really thought deeply about that I found fascinating. And I could sit here and talk to you about three hours, but we've got to go on. But I'm just going to say it to you. Wow, on choice. I have never considered that when, if you grow up and you're abused, you certainly didn't choose to be abused. And if the abuse last long, enough and it becomes part of the ethosy of your life, you probably are stripped of the belief or understanding of being able to choose. And then when you get into a charitable situation where choice is not part of the equation, that's just normal. You're moving from learned helplessness

to learned helplessness. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we have that is what an incredible opportunity we have to break that, to remind people that they are special, they have value, they have capacity, that we believe in them. And all of that comes through having expectations and calling people into contribution. Okay, this is amazing. From all this, I want you to know that before I came in, I thought, I'm going to want to talk with coach about five hours today. Because I knew we'd have so much good stuff to talk about. So from this 2007, I'm going to call it an awakening. Yep.

And the development of all of these thoughts into how you approach charity. One of the things that I found fascinating is almost 300 organizations have joined your true charity now. And 64% of them has significantly changed how they do charity. Yeah. So not only are you, has true charity changed the way you do your work, you were now scaling this and changing how other charities do that work. How did other charities decide, yeah, that's just the right? How did you pull that off? Well, I would give God the glory for that.

But the strategy, in part, I think it is highlighting the injustice. of what we thought was good. And so there is a movement underway. And I think movements are propelled because of an injustice. I mean, you look at the great movements in U.S. history. What do you mean women can't vote? What an injustice and a movement was underway? What do you mean I can't drink at the same water fountain you can?

What do you mean? I got a ride on the back of the boss. I got a ride on the back and a movement. movement was underway, right? What do you mean that you own, own me? And a movement was underway. And so I think this is a movement that's underway in part because we are, and we're not the only voice here, but we're saying there is a type of help that's doing more harm than good, that's dissuading people from stepping into a life of purpose and dignity. And so, So that is an injustice.

And so I think there are people who see it, they know it, and they want to join that movement. So in part, that's it. But the other part is that we're really providing some very handy equipment in how to make the change in your organization. Because we can feel these things and know these things and want to make the change, but changing an organization and the way it's operating is not an easy thing to do. And so we're helping make that much easier. So organizations for the first time are starting to measure outcomes, not just how much food they gave away or how much people came, how many people came through the doors or whatever, but outcomes like toward employment and gains in social capital. The equipment is the how-to, how-to guides, toolkits, model action plans, as well as connecting leaders with other leaders who are doing it and going through it so that they can share the best practices with one another.

How you put all this together with the intent of scaling this to other charities? The intent is to transform the way charity is practiced in the United States. Everywhere. Private first. But you're hanging around in South East Missouri doing your thing. Well, this is the thing. You understand what I'm saying, how'd you pull that? Well, well, you know, it's a desire to solve a problem.

I mean, when you have 2,800 people who walk out of your doors in a year's time and you realize they're going to just remain dependent, they're going to remain dependent on someone else's handout, you know you need to do something. Like, there are systems that are broken. There are thoughts about charity that would be reformed. So you want to fix your competition. I'm kidding. We just. But in some regard, that is true. You knew you were losing people to other charities who were still providing the toxic

charity that you were once providing. And you said, we got to help our other charitable people understand what we've learned. Exactly. That's incredible. That's exactly right. And so we just got started locally doing lunch and learns and some radio PSAs and different things like that, coupling the ideas of compassion and common sense, things you and I are talking about, and just began to work locally.

And then that grew into a national initiative in 2020. How did you get a food pantry to stop handing out food? Because that's what food pantries do. By definition, everywhere I know, a food pantry has food, people that don't have food, people that don't have food, and they hand them food. That's, I just basically said the entire model. Well, you got a food pantry with handing out food.

Well, there are different ways, right? But one way is to just ask the question, what are you hoping for in the long run? What are you hoping for in the long run with the people you serve? Now, most people are in it because they're really compassionate. They want to help people.

Like you said at the top. Right. And when they answer that question, they're going to say something like, well, to live a flourishing life or to be independent or they're going to say things like this. This is what we're hoping for. But then we ask, how are your programs, the charity that you,

how is that helping get to that. How is what you're doing, matching what your dream is? Exactly. And that's really. Do they look at you like, oh, boy. Do they? Oh, there are light bulbs go off all the time. Yeah.

You know, people go, oh, I haven't really thought about that. And so, yeah, there are, they're always. awakenings that are happening. So the answer to how you get people to food pantries giving out food is you simply say, what is your hope for the outcome for the people you're serving? Well, what is it that you're doing to actually make that outcome happening? And then they have to look themselves in the mirror and say, I'm doing this wrong. But then they say, can you help? And we can. We've got an outcomes toolkit that will help you connect your dreams for the future with your programs and begin to measure things that are going to help you improve your programs

to actually attain the things you're hoping for in the long run for the people you serve. We'll be right back. The music you love, radio stations, everywhere you go, the podcasts everyone's talking about, all in one place, and it's free.

I heart radio. Whatever you want to hear. Listen anytime, anywhere. Music, radio, podcasts, unlimited audio. It's on the free IHurt Radio app. One app, no subscription. Always free. Grab the free app.

Every app today. I'm Melissa Jeltson, and in my new podcast, what happened to her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed.

They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. Never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise.

Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to what happened to her on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard account after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this. The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize him to strengthen that memory.

So he went into a good france. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to examined the backfire effect on the IHeart Radio app, podcast for wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder,

up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body. But no one will find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly. He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff and they said maybe she'll find out

where this girl is. I saw him violent. Backhanded a pow! And that's exactly what made us all think he had something to do with him. The clock is ticking down and the woods are calling. There are a lot of demons in Putnam County, but I've met the devil, and he's real.

I'm Paul Solitarev, and this is season two of the devil's quarry. Listen to The Devil's Quarry Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the Devil's Quarry season two add free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Shortly before 6 o'clock a.m. on November 13th, 1991, Annette's mother and her two young sons found her unresponsive inside their apartment. Investigators ruled the case a homicide. Over the years, detectives continued searching for answers, but the case eventually went cold.

This is Hunter Gilmore, host of Hunting for Answers a True Crime podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told and to the questions that still remain. As the years passed, detectives continued working the case. But more than three decades after Annette's death, no one has been held accountable. Annette's mother, Frida Scott, spent years hoping to see her daughter's case song. She never saw that day come. Annette Jones's case remains unsolved. Listen to Hunting for Answers a true crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Everybody needs to hear what you're saying.

Everybody on the face of this planet needs to hear what you're saying. It is so richly true in my mindset. Yeah, we believe it too. We believe it's incredibly important. We've spent. And this is incredible that I'm going to say this number. We've spent about a trillion dollars a year fighting poverty since 1964 or point earlier. Right.

They didn't start at that level. Right. But it has evolved now into we're spending almost a trillion dollars a year out of the United States Treasury fighting poverty. A trillion dollars year fighting poverty, yet the poverty rate has not moved. So I can think of a trillion reasons we've got to rethink this deal. This is the coolest thing of the world. You've actually testified to Congress about this. What do we, as an army of normal folks, not really understand about poverty and maybe as importantly, maybe a little more importantly,

what did the knuckleheads that you sat at the long table and talked to as they sat elevated above you in a semicircle? Isn't that the strangest thing? Yeah. As you sit at the long table and they send elevated above you in a semicircle with AIDS behind them, I think to purposely try to exude their superiority. What do they not understand about? Well, first of all, let me say, I've never heard anybody say what you've just said, but I've always thought. but I've always thought it. And I've always thought, oh, yes.

And I thought if I ever designed it, it would be the other way. You would come and say. And they would be lower. They would be lower than where you are. Where else do you give a speech that the audience is raised above you? Exactly. Think about it. It's the strangest thing.

I have no idea who was thinking about that in design. I mean, people who do not understand servant leadership. That's who designed that. They do not understand servant leadership. And it's in a semi-circle, so they approach upon you and surround you while you sit in a little chair below them looking up at them. But you're the one that's supposed to have the... I mean, it's the... It's the strangest thing.

It is the most odd-looking thing I've ever seen. It's almost... Anyway, but you testified there. Yeah. What do they and the rest of us? Yeah. If you've testified in Congress, you are officially an expert in this particular. You are.

And I know you're humble, but you are. And I really want to know what you think the rest of us and specifically the people on their purge really don't get. Let me share a wound care story with you. When I practiced physical therapy, half of my patient were worried. wound care patient. In fact, I became a wound care specialist, actually. So I was treating chronic non-healing wounds on people. Like gunshots? Gunshots, spider bites, diabetic issues, I mean, all sorts of things that would cause wounds. So like, there was one, I treated one man who had diabetes in his neuropathy, the lack of sensation in his feet was so bad that he didn't realize

what was happening when he was standing on black pavement one day. And, and, and, Yeah, so the souls were gone. So when he comes in and he, you know, we unwrap the bandage to take a look at the, and he's got his feet up where I can see them. And you look at the bottom of those feet after that. What do you want to do? Cover it. It's like, oh, my gosh, that's so bad. Oh, my goodness. Oh, that's so hard to look at. I can almost feel that, right? So I want to just wrap it up. up in a band-aid, like just put some gauze on that. Okay, I don't want to see that. That feels, okay, thank you. I'm glad we got some bandage on that. Okay, you go on and you come back at some point. And that in wound care would be called malpractice.

And yet that is exactly what's happened from our federal government, both public and really some private charity too, right? We're seeing the manifestations of deep poverty, people under a bridge, you know, and what do we want to do? Well, let's put them in a house. Just let's do a housing first program. We're going to spend billions of dollars through HUD. We're going to put people in a house. Or we're going to just, you know, they look hungry. Just give them some food. But what we're doing is a Band-Aid. That's a Band-A. It's in it, and it does not solve the problem. The best that the government can do is treat the symptoms of poverty.

and never get at the source of what's really going on. And my argument is that it actually inflames it makes it worse. It would be like me looking at the symptoms of a diabetic, where it might be thirst and lethargy, you know, and I'm going to say, well, you just need a good cold Coca-Cola. It'll wake you out. I'm going to treat the symptoms of thirst and lethargy with an ice cold Coca-Cola or Pepsi.

And we both know, that's going to do more harm than good. that's happening all the time people who have the manifestations of poverty which would be things like i don't have cash i don't have food i don't have a roof over my head and so what are we going to do well we can hand cash out at the corner we can get you on food stamps we can put you in HUD housing and we're treating symptoms and we're actually inflaming the pathology the underlying issues that are going on rather than bringing solutions to them and that is where an army of normal folks comes in. That is also malpractice to your point. It is. It is. It is. James, my goodness, that's as well explained as I've ever heard it. If the guy's wounds are open,

you really don't want to look at them. So you wrap them up and send them away. And as a professional, that would be considered malpractice. But that is literally what we're doing. That is what we do. And we're spending a trillion dollars. a year doing it, and we wonder why poverty rates haven't changed. That's exactly right. Not only that, but there are things that are worsening right now. We can look at the poverty rate and say, okay, it's bounce between 11 and 15 percent for the last 60 years, 70 years.

But really, there are some other things that are happening. The male labor force participation rate with working age males has gone from in mid-60s, one in 30 working-age men, not in the workforce, to today, one in 10. One in 10 working age men are not in the workforce at all. And if you're not working, you're dependent. And what's the source of that dependency, that trillion dollars a year? It's actually even more than that. Is it?

Oh, yeah, it's more than that. If you look at federal and state programs put together, you're actually closer to $1.7. I mean, it's a tremendous amount. $1.7 trillion years. That would be federal and state combined. And so you have a lot of taxpayer dollars going to try to meet the needs of the poor, but in fact, it's lowering participation in the labor force.

And we're also seeing a rise in deep poverty. So you have deep poverty. Deep poverty is poverty level that's below 50% of the poverty line. Like earlier, you said $23,000. Isn't that number? I think 23. I think it is too. I think it's around 23.

But if you were to look at, you know, half of that, 11,500, if you're there or below, you're in deep poverty. Which ironically is what that 960 dollars in the government. It's interesting. I thought that too. Right as I said it, I was like, so you're going to live in deep poverty. But I mean, I am no by no means the smartest guy in the world, and I'm just listening to you, but my deduction from hearing what you were saying is one in 10 working.

age adults in the United States are by design of our failed systems being kept in poverty. I mean, I can only induce that that's what's happening. And we've got to... Is that right? No, that's true. That's exactly right. If you're not employed, you're dependent. Okay.

So we can talk about what poverty means, but to me, the greatest poverty is having no purpose. If you're not contributing in your community in some way, then you're... you're living an impoverished life. And so this is, yeah, this is what's happening in America today. One in 10 working age men are not in the labor force at all. And one thing just definitionally for those who don't know, what that number also means is they're not even looking for work. Right.

So that's a great point. I'm glad it came out of time out because that is a good thing. Yeah, thank you, Alex. We're not unemployed and not looking. Right. We want our listeners to understand when they see unemployment rates, That's not the full picture of unemployment because the labor force participation rate includes people who are no longer looking for work. And those folks are not included in the unemployment rate.

Yeah, because the unemployment rate is people without a job that are seeking a job. Exactly. The participation rate is the true rate of people not working. That's exactly. And although unemployment rate may be 5%, the participation rate might be 70. Right. Or something like that. Yeah.

You've got it. That's exactly right. It's an important thing for people to know. And why that pertains, how that pertains to charity is toxic charity and toxic giving from the government grow this issue. Absolutely. And it is a really inconvenient truth that we've got to get our arms around. We do. What we need to do. So did you see this in Congress, talk to people? Yes, yes. Something along these lines.

When you told them that their policies are screwed up and they got to change, I mean, that's what you said, and that you're part of the problem. You also said that to them. You may not have said it that blatantly, but that's what you said. I am very curious as to what the response to that was from policymakers and their staffs. My recollection is that I had no questions from folks who would be in favor of growing larger welfare programs. and probably because what you and I are talking about right now makes so much doggone sense that there's not much you're going to say that's going to be. And what could you ask that wouldn't set you up for an answer that was going to make you look like a fool? It was, yeah, I really don't think I got any, I got some dirty looks. There are no doubt about it.

I remember those. I've captured a few of them off a C-SPAN. But there were some dirty looks, but there were no questions. And I think it's because people sense the authenticity, that there's real compassion here, that, and the truth of what I was saying and the truth of what we're talking about. It's hard to deny that this is a better route. But I tell you, let me tell you what I did get, though, Coach. I got so a woman who was there, and I don't know if she was a staff maybe of one of the

senators or not. But she in the semicircle or behind you? She was kind of with reporters in the back, kind of, and so, but she came up afterward and she said, and this was a particularly, this was specifically a SNAP, food stamp hearing, you know, so it was like, do we grow this program, do we not? And I'm saying, yeah, let's not. I think that local organizations and churches can be very helpful here. She comes up to me afterward, and she says, you know, I think you're going to starve people to death. And I said, oh no. I said, look, I've been working for decades and helping people. I'm not here to starve anybody death. She said, well, look, I just don't think that you should put this on the backs of these small charities, this burden of feeding people, which was almost offensive.

And I'm not easily offended, but I thought, oh, I mean, I've dedicated my life to helping people who are struggling in a number of fronts. And yet you're saying it shouldn't be a burden that it would be put on the back of small missions and charities. And then she said, I just think it ought to be government first, charities last. Now, that's one of the big problems in America today. Are we going to be top down or bottom up? And the truth is, is what we want to see is that we never take from an individual what he can accomplish on his own

and give it to someone else to do for them. But we also should never take from the community what the community ought to do to help people and give it to the government. So it starts with the individual. It involves family and local community next, and then you would get into state and federal help. She is so fortunate that she ran into such a kind,

learned, articulate man as you. Because if she had said that to me, my two-word response would have been probably pretty inappropriate. Can you imagine her saying something like that? I cannot imagine what she said. And it did. I got a little bit. I can feel myself getting warm. But it was shocking to me. And I've learned since then that this is not a unique perspective. It's unfortunately a very common thought that the government ought to be the primary source of help for people. And that is not the case. It's not what our founders intended.

But it's also incapable. Forget the founders, forget everything. For just a second, let's just talk data. We're up to $1.7 trillion and have not moved the needle on poverty. It ain't working. That's exactly right. Maybe your solution doesn't work either, but shouldn't we at least try something different? Yeah.

I mean. We should. A tongue in cheek, I believe your solution is right. It's not the definition of insanity. Right. That's all the same thing. again and again thinking you're going to have different outcomes. Yeah.

And we continue to double down. I mean, you know, you mentioned at the beginning of these welfare programs, which we could go back into the 1930s under FDR. And at that point when that stuff got kicked off, and this is $2023 I'm about to share with you. It was the federal government was spending $1,600 per poor individual through its programs in that day in 2023. And in 2023, we were spending $16,000 per that's per person, per poor individual the government is.

That's a thousand percent increase in real dollars over that time frame. And what is it done? You say that challenge develops people completely agreed. I figured you would, coach. Yeah. To some folks, that may sound like making life harder. Is it not already hard enough to be poor? Good question.

Then to put more challenge on them. It's a great question. And here we get into the talk of different types of charity. There's relief, rehabilitation, and development. So relief is that transactional one way. You need your house burnt down yesterday. You need a roof over your head tonight, right? So there's relief.

Or you need your clothing replaced. Let's replace some clothing. That's relief. So there are times when relief is good. And poverty is a big struggle. and there are people who need relief in the middle of their poverty. But we can't just do perpetual relief. That's where that relief becomes a disabling and creates dependency.

We've got to move from relief to rehabilitation as soon as possible. At our mission, you show up at our doors, homeless. We're not going to have you work for your bed and meals. You're going to get a hot meal and a bed for the night. So it's relief. You're on the streets. We're going to give you relief. happens the next day, you're going to go to the Worth Shop and you're going to earn your bed

and meals, which, by the way, one homeless man literally stood outside and said, you know, he told me, he said, I've been to missions all over the nation. I've never had to work for my bed and meals. You guys take the shame out of the game. He said that. He said that. You guys take the shame out of the game. And a man standing right beside him said, yeah, it's like we get to keep our dignity. So these are the things that we need to shift into, moving from early. That's, that's not some metaphorical parable. That happened. That happened. Absolutely. You guys take the shame out of the game and the other dudes said, yeah, we get to keep our dignity. It's like we get to keep our dignity, as were his words. Yeah. Of course, I walked away from that going, I'm not going to forget

that. Wish you to film it. Yeah, it was amazing to have that conversation with the, there were three guys that were out there talking with me about how they felt. But relief is that, you know, there's a time for relief. And sometimes when people are struggling in poverty, They're going to need relief, but you've got to help move people from there. Your charity's got to change to rehabilitation and then eventually to development where you're helping people move beyond where they've been so that the next crisis, it doesn't impact them as greatly as it did. And the only way to do rehabilitation and development is through effort on the part of the recipient.

That's where real opportunity is, Coach. Right now we've conflated, I think, relief with us. opportunity, but they're different. America tends to think, let's give a bunch of stuff away through programs or whatever, and that provides them opportunity. Let's just collect all our services together and give them, you know, that way it makes it easier for people and more services, more services, and provide more relief, but that's not real opportunity. Because relief requires nothing of the recipient, but opportunity always requires something from the recipient if the recipient's going to take advantage of it.

that's the difference and we need to be a nation that's providing opportunity for people not relief and opportunity is going to require something of a person to take advantage of it we'll be right back music you love your favorite radio stations everywhere you go the podcasts everyone's talking about all in one place and it's free whatever you want to hear listen anytime anywhere music radio podcasts Unlimited audio. It's on the free IHurt Radio app. One app, no subscription. Always free. Grab the free app.

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My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard account after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this. The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize him to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good france. I really didn't believe any of it was real.

And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examined the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body. But no one will find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly. He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and I said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw him violent.

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on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Do you think there's any role for government in this? We could take a let's look at the pandemic. Okay, COVID. We had a lot of people who were dying, and there was a need for ventilators. would I say, boy, yeah, this is a job for private charity.

You guys, we ought to just, you know, let's get to get our organizations together in the community and build some ventilators for people. That ain't happen. Right. We're talking about a worldwide pandemic. Okay, so this seems like a good case where federal government could step in and be charitable and help make sure that they're ventilators for hospitals. Hurricane Katrina. Hurricane Katrina could be. There's not enough.

nonprofits and charities to go in and handle that. What we really need. I mean, they're essential in them. Yeah, they are. And here's the thing. It needs, we need to be thinking about layering. And this is why personal, relational, investigative charity is so important because to make sure I'm not going to take from you what you can do on your own, I need to

understand what's going on. I need to be close. I've got to be able to hear you, ask some questions. So it's about layering things in the right order. It's not about saying government has no role or place or position. It's about exhausting first, making sure a person's got skin in the game. They're doing what they can do on their own. And how is family, local community involved before we see government involved?

And if we layered that, we'd have very little need for government involvement at all. That's true, except in real dire situation. In real dire national situation. The reason I ask is we have become such an either-or-thinking society. You're either right or left. You're either Christian or not. You're either for government or not. Right, right.

And I just don't think any answer is always one or the other. I think the truth is there's always some. And I think it is important to say, even in the work that you and I are passionate about, there is space for the federal government when all that's the fan, right? Yeah, and again, you're going to have people that believe differently about that, right? Because we've got to... Certainly, that's why I'm interested in your thoughts on. Well, we need to be really cautious here.

And again, I think there are times when federal government can be involved when you're talking about a multi-state national kind of an issue, something like that. But we've always got to remember that the government does not have... any money of its own. Yeah. It only has what it's taken. And so whenever I'm receiving any government money, which we haven't, but if, you know, if I, if I were receiving government money, I've got to at least wrestle with, where did this come from?

And who earned it? And do they believe in what I'm doing? Because if they don't believe in what I'm doing, I don't want to take their earnings. That's a really principled look at it. It's a very principled position. But it's also, it also feels right when I hear it. You should, we should wrestle with that a little bit, right? We should be thinking about the fact that the dollars that are at the government level

have been taken through taxation or they're being printed, which results in debt for our future generations. I mean, it's, you know, it devalues the dollar. So we're talking about 1.7 trillion of them annually as it pertains to this work. It's a bunch. It's a bunch. Yeah. It's a bunch. So I guess what I'm hearing you say is there's a small role for government, especially

in big, big, big things. But by and large, this is a job for an army of normal folks, making sure that the work they're doing is untoxic. You nailed it. And that's our mission at True Charity is to chance. being a resurgence of civil society in the fight against poverty. And the piece that you've put in there is so important, which is effectively, effectively, right? So we want to see an army of normal folks stepping into this space and doing it well, and we want to help with that any way that we can.

I think something that would bless you is to know that when my wife and I started our mission, for 10 years, it was all volunteer. There was no pay. staff. We weren't paid. We weren't on any. There was no payroll at all. I'm working part-time at that point as a physical therapist and wound care specialist, Marcia and I and other volunteers are literally growing this mission, this ministry without any staff. We have always believed in the power of volunteerism and just being called into a space because you feel like it's important and compassion is moving you to do it. And we're excited. about an army of normal folks stepping into effective volunteerism even. Maybe some of them are

running nonprofits or want to start those in the future, but just saying I'm going to be involved and I want to do it effectively is incredibly important. We have a lot of different things that would be helpful for that. But one of them is a training that we developed that's a video training called Beyond Volunteering. And it is built for volunteers who understand that we we need to go beyond swinging a hammer or showing up and just sorting through clothes or handing food across a line. We actually need to go deeper. We've got to develop relationship. But how do I do that? How do I go beyond volunteering? And we've created a video training just for folks. So I would love it if our listeners would consider looking at the beyond volunteering training. And we created

a page that's truecharity.us slash normal folks. So if you put in True Charity.us. Really? Yeah. Truecharity. Us slash normal folks. You're going to see our true charity training called Beyond volunteering, which is really well done.

And everybody will love it. And it's normally 20 bucks. But if they put in normal folks as a coupon code, it costs nothing. So normal folks is the code to use. You beat me to it. I was about to say that undoubtedly there are people listening to us or watching us right now that are involved in charity work or even potentially run a charity or work for a charity, that if they're involved in things that could be paternalistic or toxic unwittingly,

through this episode, have maybe thought to themselves, I need to find out more. And so, I was going to ask you where they go, but there it is. Well, that's certainly good for folks who want to go beyond volunteering and develop real relationship and figure out how to do that, which is incredibly important. And let me say that the number one indicator for economic mobility is bridging social capital. Bridging social capital is the development of relationships between people in different socioeconomic spheres. A person who's been in chronic poverty, they may have bonding social capital where they've got other relationships of people who are also in poverty, but they often don't have relationship with people who are not in poverty.

True. And that is... And that's just the construct of society. It is. Typically hang around more people like yourself. It is. And bonding social capital is not a bad thing. But I believe that an army of normal folks, civil society, churches, local civic organizations,

are an incredible place where bridging social capital can be developed. and that is the number one indicator for economic mobility. If you really want to be, if you want to escape poverty, develop a relationship with someone who's not in poverty. It provides one of the biggest impediments, which is access. Access? I mean, it could be you're going to be breaking bread with somebody who is an employer or knows somebody who's an employer or who's been through some things in life that you haven't. You can learn from one another. We even created a tool called LifeDack that helps people build relationship over time. just for that very purpose.

So phenomenal. Hey, one question before your last one. When your city of Joplin, Missouri was leveled by the tornado, what did an army of normal folks do next? That's a great question. I'm a big believer in an army of normal folks. Huge. And I've seen it.

When in 2011 a tornado, an F5 ripped through the center of our city and rendered thousands of people. without a home immediately to see the action of neighbors who care, local businesses, churches, community members, even from other communities coming in to give of their time and to be there to help with relief when relief was really needed was absolutely amazing. And the numbers are astonishing. I won't try to remember them right now, but I mean the numbers of organizations and people who were involved, tens of thousands, maybe even more than 100,000 of volunteer hours were contributed. I mean, it's a tremendous amount. We've interviewed too.

Greta's great. They have mentioned specifically that tornado is something that they inserted themselves. Oh, yeah. But the point is, it is thousands. Oh, yeah. I mean, and so much happened before FEMA ever arrived on the scene. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, And so I really believe that when it comes to not just alleviating poverty, but bringing solutions to poverty, it's an army of normal folks who are going to do it. If you could say something to the army of normal folks, since you're talking to them right now, what would you tell them about, not specifically this, but just service in general that you think people need to understand? There are a lot of people who want to solve problems of poverty. but not very many people who want to be with people who are in poverty.

That we have a great problem in America where we want to do for more than we want to be with. Good point. And it's incredibly important that we allow God to change our hearts where we desire what he wants, which is to be with people.

And we need to pick that up and say, okay, I want to. I'm going to allow that to infect my heart and I'm going to be with someone. I'm going to walk alongside them. I'm no longer going to be thinking about my services, how many meals I served down at the local mission or whatever, or how much I worked in the clothing store or the food pantry. But did I develop a relationship with somebody? Was I a listening ear? Was I able to advise in some way that can be helpful? Can I develop a relationship with an individual? and be a source of inspiration and hope for a brighter future.

And in all of that, is there accountability that's mutual in that relationship where... Am I willing to take the other half of the sandwich? Am I willing to take the other half of the sandwich? And to believe in the person, to believe that normal folks are incredibly extraordinary, and to believe in that and to make sure that the belief is coupled with expectations. And that's incredibly important. Probably a good note to end on. If our expectations, if we believe in people, we'll have expectations of people.

If we have no expectations of people at all, what it means is, I don't believe in you. And so it's okay. It is okay to couple your compassion and your chance. charitable heart with expectations that are going to help people know, I believe in you. I see value in you. Because that's going to be the source of inspiration that calls people into a life of purpose. James Whitford, everybody, co-founder, Water Gardens, co-founder, CEO, True Charity, Joplin, Missouri, that has spread to 300 other charities so far.

Because I got it. I got to believe you are pushing it. Oh, yeah. We want to see a thousand in the next few years. And so any of our listeners today would say, I want true charity to come into our community, gather some leaders together. Let's have a workshop.

Do a day. We'd love to come. Absolutely. Let's spread this stuff. It's a movement. Thank you for you for spending time with me. Thanks for the drop down. James, it has been an honor and a pleasure to meet you.

and I can't wait to see what you guys do next, and I'm going to keep tabs on you. Well, thanks, coach. Thanks for being such a champion of civil society as well. So it's great to be partnered with you in that. That's awesome. Thanks a lot. And thank you for joining us this week. If James Whitford has inspired you in general,

or better yet to take action by rethinking how you approach service, reading his book, The Crisis of Dependency, having your nonprofit join his true charity coalition or something else entirely. Let me know about it. I really do want to hear about it. You can write me anytime at bill at normalfolks.org, and I will respond. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with friends and on social. Subscribe to the podcast wherever you're watching or listening to it.

Rate it, review it. Join the army at normalfolks.org. join or start one of our local service clubs. Take the 10 level challenge. Buy our merch. Share testimonial, feedback, or content ideas at anf video.org. Any and all of these things that will help us grow. An Army and Normal folks.

I'm Bill Courtney. Until next time, do it you can. Detective said he had stalked her before she died. Years later, they said he remained the person they continued to focus on. This is Hunter Gilmore, host of Hunting for Answers, a True Crime podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told and to the questions that still remain. Listen to Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 1986, a man named Scott Macklem was killed in broad daylight. police quickly found their suspect.

Prosecutors convicted him. But now, almost 40 years later, I'm reexamining this case. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Has the wrong man been in prison this whole time? Listen to examined the backfire effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From shocking betrayals to carefully planned murders,

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You get your podcast. I had just seen Ice Tea guest at the Apollo at the Snoop Dog concert, and I told him that, and he sort of looked me up and down and went, huh. Hi, I'm Lisa Trager. And I'm Kara Klank. And together, we host That's Messed Up, a podcast where we recap Law & Order SVU, dig into the actual crimes and interview actors from the episode.

Like former SVU guest star Bradley Whitford. Often I would meet people who would assume that there was something sort of Ted Bundy, about me because of these sort of characters that I play. And we're celebrating our 300th episode in style with the one, the only, John Stamos. There's nobody better to play this character. I'm like, what is this? He's a reproductive abuser and he tries to impregnate

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dun-d-d-d-d-down! Back to school is here and you know what that means. Dirty Rush is on. As campuses come back to life and Rush Week kicks into high gear, we're taking you inside the mysterious journey of a sorority girl, from pledging to initiation and just about everything in between. Joining me, Gia Judice, Daisy Kent, and Jen Fessler. Dirty Rush takes you deep inside Greek life.

Let's get dirty. Listen to Dirty Rush on the IHRRRR radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks.