An Army of Normal Folks - James Fox: The Dude Who Brought Yoga To Prisons (Pt 2)

Episode Date: December 16, 2025

James is the founder of Prison Yoga Project, which brings trauma-informed yoga to prisoners to help them heal and rehabilitate. And last year 57,000 prisoners attended their programming! This life-changing work is led by their own Army of Normal Folks who are facilitators.Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army and normal folks. We continue now with part two of our conversation with James Fox, right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. It's 5.23 p.m. One of your kids is asking for a snack. Another is building a fort out of your clean laundry, and you're staring at a half-empty fridge and thinking, what are we even going to eat tonight?

Or you could just hello fresh it. With over 80 recipes to choose from every week, including kid-friendly ones, even for picky eaters, you'll get fresh ingredients and easy step-by-step recipes delivered right to your door. No last-minute grocery runs. No, what do we even have, fridge staring? And the best part, you're in total control.

Skip a week, pause anytime, pick what works for you. It's dinner on your terms. The kids can even help you cook. Yeah, it's going to be messy. But somehow they tend to eat the vegetables they made themselves. Try HelloFresh today and get 50% off the first box with free shipping. Go to HelloFresh.coma and use promo code Mom50. That's HelloFresh.ca promo code Mom 50.

HelloFresh.C.A. HelloFresh. Canada's number one meal kit delivery service. Who would you call if the unthinkable happened? I just fell and started screaming. If you lost someone you loved in the most horrific way. I said through shot 22 times. The police, right?

But what if the person you're supposed to go to for help is the one you're the most afraid of? This dude is the devil. He's a snake. He'll hurt you. I got you. I got you. I got you. I'm Nikki Richardson, and this is The Girlfriends, Untouchable. Detective Roger Golubski spent decades

intimidating and sexually abusing black women across Kansas City, using his police badge to scare them into silence. This is the story of a detective who seemed above the law until we came together to take him down. I told Roger Goluski, I said, you're going to see my face till the day that you die. Listen to the girlfriends, Untouchable, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Stefan Curry. And this is Gentleman's Cut. I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different. Visit gentlemen's cutbuburn.com

or your nearest Total Wines or Bevmo. This message is intended for audiences 21 and older. Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. For more on Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, please visit gentlemen's cut bourbon.com. Please enjoy responsibly. Dad had the strong belief that the devil was attacking us. Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths.

Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest-ranking law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience. But his brother Larry, he stayed behind and built an entirely different legacy. He was the head of this gang, and nobody was going to tell him what to do. You're going to push that line for the cause. Took us under his wing and showed us the game. As they call it. When Larry is murdered, Gabe is forced to confront the past he tried to leave behind

and uncover secrets he never saw coming. My dad had a whole other life that we never knew about. Like, my mom started screaming my dad's name, and I just heard one gunshot. The Brothers Ortiz is a gripping true story about faith, family, and how two lives can drift so far apart and collide in the most devastating way. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, it's Chuck and Josh from the Stuff You Should Know podcast, and it's that time of year again when we knuckle down to do our annual holiday episodes. We collected our best past classic holiday episodes and compiled them into a 12 days of Christmas toys playlist that the whole family can enjoy.

That's right. Maybe you missed it the first time we detailed the history of Beanie Babies, Monopoly, or Yo-Yo's, and a whole lot more. So listen to the 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Even in a prison population like this with really bowed up big bad guys, behind that shell of tough things, there has to be an enormous amount of vulnerability. So the ability to feel safe must be an oasis in the middle of a miserable, metaphorical, emotional desert that is prison. Yeah.

And really the average incarcerated male is not, you know, all buffed and everything like that. There's a segment of it. But the average incarcerated male is like the average person. average person in the United States. Well, then he would probably feel very vulnerable. And on top of that, though, however, I will say that because of their backgrounds, they're very often they're in poor health, and the mental health issues of incarcerated

people is severe. There's a study that came out. It was projected that 43% of incarcerated people in state prisons, have been diagnosed with a mental health issue. The interesting part to me, I've read that. And this is a little off, but I think it's important. The interesting part to me is I don't think the research goes deep enough because I want to know how many of those mental health issues developed

before going to prison or after getting in prison. Because I think prison could be as stressful and as much trauma as what got him into prison in the first place. But the fact is, those mental problems remain. I am curious as to where they started. Yeah. But they do remain. Well, yeah, and part of the issue is, you know,

that what about the mental health facilities in this country? It's pretty well known that the three largest mental health facilities in this country are Rikers Jail, Cook County Jail, and L.A. County Jail. That came out in 60 minutes a few years ago. And that's so wrong. Yeah. So you're going down this path, like I said, squirrel up a tree. So you're going down this path.

At what point did you say I want to write a book? Well, that was kind of early on because I had guys who were getting paroled. And they were saying, how do I continue my yoga practice once I get out? Now, that makes sense. Uh-huh. Okay. How do I continue my yoga practice once? I get out because very rare are they going to show up at a yoga studio to do yoga.

Yeah, especially right out of prison. Right. So I decided, okay, I started writing like a little pamphlet or something like that, and then I realized I should write a book. And then when I started writing the book, I then thought, I should make this book available to any incarcerated person who wants a copy of it, and I can send it to him free of charge. so that was i wrote the book in 2009 started sending it out in 2010 yoga a path for healing and recovery

by james fox the prison yoga project interestingly the book has lots of different yoga positions and how to do it because he just heard james wanted any prisoner to be able to do it or those who paroled to have a guide so they could do it on their own and i believe the artwork was actually done by a prisoner in San Quentin. By several, actually. Seven. That's actually really, really cool. Yes.

That that's it. And so the idea was my paroled people can use this so they can do practice in their homes or wherever. And if actual everything in the prison populations is distributed by word of mouth, clearly word would get a mouth would get around into other prison populations you want to provide this thing. But you want to do it free of charge. That ain't cheap. Right. Yeah. So we've sent out 43,000 copies of that book.

43,000 copies. Yes. 43,000 copies of this thing have gone to. Prisons all over the country, all over. And lots of letters back from somebody who receives it and says, hey, I'm in solitary. You can't believe what this book is meant to me. or I received your book, we got permission from the lieutenant or the captain on our unit to allow us to start a yoga program, and I'm leading a yoga class using your book.

This is common now. This is common. The other thing that, and this is something I started doing a few years ago when I was in the class and I would do a particularly impactful sequence and stop for a moment and ask everybody. So how'd that go for you? How'd you feel? And the guys would say, oh, that felt really good. Boy, I haven't felt that good. And I'd say, how many you guys would have children? And guys would, and most of them would raise their hand and say, what about when you get out of here being able to share this sort of thing with your children? Wouldn't that be amazing? And you can see the look on their face. But a light goes off a little bit. Light goes off. Like this isn't just for here. This is for... When I reintegrate to society,

Yeah. Which, by the way, serves public safety. We're serving public safety by providing these practices on the inside. What is today's recidivism, right? Sixty-eight, nine, ten? Yeah, 70%. After five years. Yes. 68% after five years. Rearrest. Seventy-percent. Rearrest. Seven out of ten. And on that point, is it 90% of people will eventually go back home, too? 93%. Six hundred and fifty thousand people are already. released from jails and prisons every year. Two-thirds of them are re-arrested within three years. When you expand that out to five years, it goes up to 70%. That alone tells us what we're doing

ain't working. It's a broken system. And the issue is, let me see if I can grab something from, I want to show this to you, because this has been our... What if prison helped people heal? What if prisons help people heal? That's exactly what I was getting to is if seven out of ten reoffend and end up back in jail, and we're talking about $650,000,000 people annually, what if we actually teach the very folks that are 80% of whom? And it's not all. We can't paint with a broad broad.

and you have to be honest about the numbers. 80% of the people that are in prison suffered some type of pretty extreme childhood trauma that was layered and or were under the influence of alcohol or drugs when they offended. But oftentimes the alcohol and drugs come as a result of the trauma they suffered as a child

so it all goes hand to hand. And that's 80% of the population. So what if that 80% that is led out of jail to the tune of 650,000 people, 70% of which will go back into jail, which is about a half million people annually. What if they were taught how to breathe, how to be centered, how to control their toxic masculinity, i.e. their impulse control, how to, instead of learning how to fight when they're faced with an issue to breathe and be able to walk away

and still retain their ego and their manhood. What if they were taught that? The answer is that recidivision rate plummets. Would plummet. It would plummet. And you are addressing the core issues of rehabilitation, the willpower of our prison system to balance punishment with rehabilitation.

Which is ultimately what, you're doing now through yoga. That's what, well, we're attempt. Yes. And we're doing it with other program providers who are addressing origins of violence, for instance. You don't start a yoga class and say, well, let's talk about your origins of violence.

Hey, roll out your mat and tell me every traumatic experience since you're a three-year-old. It's just not going to happen. They're going to look at you like you're crazy. No, we're providing the embodiment component that, lines up with that mental, emotional, and physical. The frustrating thing for us who are involved in prisoner rehabilitation is that we know it works. We know that if you're a violent offender, you should be, not anger management, you

should be doing a really effective violence intervention, violence prevention class that you invest, if you're going to be in for a while. you invest at least a year, where you are really diving into understanding, how did I become a violent person? Part of that also should be a component of emotional literacy. Most men aren't very emotionally literate. I certainly wasn't. And being able to understand that there are lots of emotions. Emotions come. You have no control over them. But if sadness or fear comes your way, do you push it away? Or do you really explore it? Do you even know how to explore? Exactly. Exactly. So the program providers, the original nonprofit that I was involved in was called

the Insight Prison Project. And it was based on these four pillars of violence prevention, victim offender education, which is basically working with offenders on taking personal responsibility for the harm that they caused. And it also has to do with addressing the survivors or the victims of crimes and the harm that's caused them. This is restorative justice. The third component is emotional intelligence, emotional literacy, and the fourth component is the mind-body integration. So what I'm saying is that will yoga alone do that? I don't know if yoga alone will do it. Yoga alone will have an impact on lowering recidivism.

But when you combine these other programs, you've got a winning curriculum. It is so interesting. We're talking about this. And at the top of our conversation, we're talking about yoga. But the truth is it's so much deeper than stretching on a mat. Absolutely. Which is really what I want our listeners to fully understand. Prison Yoga Project has developed this holistic approach to rehabilitation and transformation with the criminal justice system.

The four programs, I want you to go into a little deeper for us. Trauma-informed yoga in prisons, trauma-informed training, publications and materials, and then advocacy and consulting. And that fourth one is really interesting to me. would you care to talk about those four issues that are specific to prison yoga project itself? So the first one is direct services, direct services, and direct services of bringing prison yoga programs into correctional facilities and providing... Do Gordon say you're, when you show up and say, hey, I want to do this? I mean, I got to think, you know, I'm trying to make sure my guard. make it home every night safely,

keep some pretty, at this point, traumatized, but yes, antisocial people from killing each other every day, feed them, get them bathed, try to get them into some classes and get them housed and do this every day without having a riot. And this dude wants to come in and do yoga. I just, does some of them look at you like you're half out of your brain when you ask them about doing yoga in the prison?

They used to. They used to. They had to have. Yeah. It was a harder cell. It was a harder cell. 20 years ago, 18 years ago, it was a harder cell. It's not that hard of a cell anymore.

I mean, part of it is because we've developed a reputation. You've got programs in 20 states, over 200 facilities? Tell me some of the facilities. Oh, I know that particular facility. And maybe I'll reach out to that particular person. Or they go and they look at our website and they really look. most wardens today understand trauma and the impact that trauma is had on years ago they probably didn't no it wasn't even a word in the lexicon right i mean combat veterans really brought the awareness

of trauma to the to the culture i mean that was the original and particularly um post vietnam i mean vanercoke dr van der kook started working with vietnam veterans yeah they were the first one that it used to be, oh, they're just shell shock, they get over it, and PTSD was a little different than that. All right, so trauma-informed is, that's called on-side. Direct programming. Direct programming. Direct programming.

Direct-programming. So direct services, direct programming, direct services. The training part of it is training certified yoga teachers who are interested in doing this work. Oh, that's training the teachers. However, however, most. More and more, we're training people who are part of the criminal justice system who are like, what exactly what you just said?

What are you doing? What is it that you're doing that's having an impact on incarcerated people? I'm interested in that. So some of those people, their staff people, they might be social workers, they might be, but some of them could be a facility captain or something like that in a more progressive jail or a prison that's really interested in what it is that we're doing. defense attorneys. We've worked with a lot of defense attorneys. They may never teach a yoga class, but they want to know, what is it that you're doing? What is it? And so part of that training is about

what about judges? Some judges, actually, we have a judge on our board, a former judge on our board, who actually goes into the Max federal facility in Florence, Colorado, and teaches at the Supermax prison. Are you kidding me? Wow. Okay, so I'm sorry to interrupt you. So you got to your informed training for all of these people. For all those people. Yes. Yeah.

And part of it is for the teachers, there's the trauma-informed part of it. And then it's like, how do you deal with this environment? You've never been in a prison before. How do you create safe boundaries and things like that? Because many of our facilitators are women. Oh. Many of our facilitators. We've never had an issue, never had an issue with women going into male

prisons in teaching yoga. Never. That's interesting. And then the books, then the publishing, and we have three books. We have my original book, Yoga Path for Healing and Recovery. We have freedom from the inside, which is a book for incarcerated women. We have this new graphic novel for youth because we're doing more programming for youth and detention now. And then advocacy.

That's where it starts. That's where it starts. and if we can, like our facilitator here in Tennessee is she's been dedicated to this. Chalandra Ford has been dedicated to working with youth and she sees the results of being able, not only to the youth, not only to the young people, but to their families so that they understand,

oh, there's some value here. And then the advocacy part is really advocating for rehabilitating for rehabilitation, for true rehabilitation. So let me give you an example. California is the largest Department of Correct state prisons in the country. There's 32 state prisons. There's a little less than 100,000 incarcerated people in California.

The annual budget for the prison system in California is about $12 billion. It's called the California Department of corrections and rehabilitation. That's what they call themselves. 4% of their budget is spent on rehabilitation. The rest is spent on corrections. Which is also could be called penalty. We have a retributive justice system.

I mean, there's basically a retributive justice system in most of the world, which is justice is equated with, punishment. The whole purpose of the criminal justice system is to establish guilt and then meet out punishment versus restorative justice, which focuses on, wait a minute, a harm has been caused here. So our first responsibility is to address the harm that's been caused. And our first responsibility is the harm that's been caused the victim and the survivor. And our second responsibility is to work with those who call. cause the harm to not cause harm again.

But we don't do that. We are good at the first part. We're good at let's get justice for the offended, the victim, whatever. And honestly, I, you know, I don't want to be offensive here, but that's the way it should be. If you offend or harmed one of my family members of loved ones, I want justice for them. But, and there is punishment. I think it was Kennedy who said, I can't remember what president was,

but it was always forgive your enemies, but never forget their names. And he said, there's a difference in forgiveness and a pardon. I can forgive you, but you still have to pay for what you've done. We'll be right back. It's 5.23 p.m.

One of your kids is asking for a snack, another is building a fort out of your clean laundry, and you're staring at a half-empty fridge and thinking, what are we even going to eat tonight? Or you could just hello-fresh it. With over 80 recipes to choose from every week, including kid-friendly ones, even for picky eaters, you'll get fresh ingredients and easy step-by-step recipes delivered right to your door. No last-minute grocery runs. No, what do we even have fridge staring? And the best part? You're in total control. Skip a week, pause anytime, pick what works for you.

It's dinner on your terms. The kids can even help you cook. Yeah, it's going to be messy. But somehow, they tend to eat the vegetables they made themselves. Try HelloFresh today and get 50% off the first box with free shipping. Go to Hellofresh.ca and use promo code Mom 50. That's Hellofresh.com. Comalcode Mom50, Hellofresh.ca. HelloFresh. Canada's number one meal kit delivery service. Who would you call if the unthinkable happened? I just fell and started screaming.

If you lost someone you loved in the most horrific way. I said through you're two times. The police, right? But what if the person you're supposed to go to for help is the one you're the most afraid of? This dude is the devil. He's a snake. He'll hurt you. I got you, I got you, I got you.

I'm Nikki Richardson, and this is The Girlfriends, Untouchable. Detective Roger Golubski spent decades intimidating and sexually abusing black women across Kansas City, using his police badge to scare them into silence. This is the story of a detective who seemed above the law until we came together to take him down. I told Roger Golubski, I said, you're going to see my face to this. the day that you die. Listen to the girlfriends, Untouchable, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Stefan Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut.

I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different. Visit Gentleman's Cut Bourbon.com or your nearest total wine. or Bevmo. This message is intended for audiences 21 and older. Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. For more on Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, please visit gentlemen's cuthuburn.com. Please enjoy responsibly. Dad had the strong belief that the devil was attacking us. Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths.

Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest ranking law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience. But his brother Larry, He stayed behind and built an entirely different legacy. He was the head of this gang, and nobody was going to tell him what to do. You're going to push that line for the cause. Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it. When Larry is murdered, Gabe is forced to confront the past he tried to leave behind and uncover secrets he never saw coming.

My dad had a whole other life that we never knew about. Like, my mom started screaming my dad's name, and I just heard one gunshot. The Brothers Ortiz is a gripping true story about faith, family, and how two lives can drift so far apart and collide in the most devastating way. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, it's Chuck and Josh from the Stuff You Should Know podcast, and it's that time of year again when we knuckle down to do our annual holiday episodes. We collected our best past classic holiday episodes and compiled them into a

12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist that the whole family can enjoy. That's right. Maybe you missed it the first time we detailed the history of Beanie Babies, Monopoly, or Yo-Yo's, and a whole lot more. So listen to the 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The first part of that whole justice thing, I love. The second part I, loathe because there's still a human being and if you unpack that 80% of the people that have done the offense are themselves from childbirth victims let's punish them we're not saying they get a pardon because we feel bad for them but if they're going to pay their debt to society

and if society's going to hold them accountable to their offense and if we have gotten justice for the victims or survivors, then what? And then what should be, why can't we do something to try to help for society's sake, the recidivism, right? So why wouldn't every prison in this country that has a violent offender, why wouldn't they have a program

that focuses with the violent offender on they're taking personal responsibility for the harm that they cost. Which is the first step before they can do anything else. Why wouldn't we do that? There was a warden that I worked with at San Quentin many years ago who used to say, exactly why a violent offender, the very first thing is it's mandatory that while you're doing your time, you have to go through these programs. They're not easy because most offenders are the last thing I want to do is go back into

understanding how I became a violent person. I don't want to go back into my childhood trauma. It's too painful for me. And I sure as hell don't want to discuss it in front of everybody else, so I show my weakness. But that is so beautiful when you do groups because it starts out that way. These are voluntary programs, by the way, all these programs that I'm talking about. And maybe for the first few weeks when you introduce topics like the father wound or the mother wound or things like that or people are really quiet and you're the facilitator and you're the only one talking

and you're hoping, okay, well, I hope this breaks open at some point in time. And finally, one person in the group goes, you know what we talked about last week? I got to tell you, that's my life story. And that person starts to talk about their story and what they went through. And then all of a sudden another guy goes, you're talking about me. and there's a relational aspect to healing also when you know because oftentimes people who've been harmed like that or people who've gone through that

they feel completely like I'm the only one who ever went through this I'm I feel isolated and they find out no it's not just me it's 80% of people in this damn jail but again why wouldn't we insane If you're a violent offender and you're going to be doing time for a violent offense that you go through a program for taking personal responsibility for the harm that you caused. And no, it's not, you want to talk about punishment.

It's not intended to be easy. But it's, it's, it's constructive punishment. It's constructive punishment. So I get that. I'm just saying that if the correction part of the equation is 90%, and the rehabilitative part is 10% or less, which is the fact, because why would the recidivism rate be that high? Let's bring it up to 50-50. Yeah, you have to pay for the harm that you cost, you know, in terms of punishment.

But while you're here, it's incumbent upon us to provide you with programs so that when you're released, you're not going to reaffend that you're not going to be violent again. And that way society gets better. public safety it's a no-brainer it's to me it's an absolute no-brainer so what does yoga fill yoga provides the embodiment component that the trauma therapists and the research has indicated that one of the things that van der koke has talked about in his research dr bessel van der koke is you can do all the cognitive behavioral therapy. You can talk about the trauma that you experienced.

But if you don't involve the body, it's an incomplete job. And you've got... That's interesting to me. Yeah. When I read that and you've said that before and when I read that, I read that two or three times and really thought about what that meant. I mean, I think that's really interesting. And I don't think many people think very...

deeply about that. A lot of people just do cognitive behavioral therapy and stop there. Yeah, that's, that's what I'm saying. And Van der Koke has done lots of research on this. And as have other trauma therapist, Peter Levine, Stephen Porges, Gabour Matte, this is now really risen to the fore of the approaches to healing trauma. So AT, a YTT, you participate, He said this, if you want to truly learn and know yourself while healing from trauma, as well as help others find their way to self-knowledge while redefining what a typical yoga practice looks like, this is the way to go.

Don't tell me his name, but tell me about who AT is. Well, that was a yoga teacher training that he did. So we have a, to become a certified yoga teacher, you have to do 200 hours of a certified. A certified hours. Wow. A certified program that an organization called Yoga Alliance is the one that controls that. It says, you know, you have to do 200 hours and it has to involve these components in order to get your certification. We started a yoga teacher certification training.

We actually have trained people while they're incarcerated to become certified yoga teachers. But our yoga teacher certification on the outside is a virtual training. that involves meetups, in-person meet-ups, and it's focused on changing the face of yoga. Not the pretty white woman in the yoga outfit and everything like that. Not the jazzercise girls. Not the jazzercise girls. Aerobics.

Aerobics. Not the aerobics teacher. Yeah, flash dance. But somebody who looks like the person, that somebody who's incarcerated, the community that somebody incarcerated comes from, So, and we focused heavily on people who have been system impacted. So they've had somebody in their life who's been incarcerated.

They've had a family member, which is huge. It's very high percentage. I can't tell you the exact percentage, but very high percentage of people in this country who've had a family member or they know somebody who's incarcerated. And then the real bullseye is training people who were incarcerated who come out and they want to teach yoga, they become certified as a teacher, and then they bring yoga to their community, not to a yoga studio, but they start a community program.

And this is a lot of the kind of work that Chawandra is doing here in Memphis that I talked about, community yoga. It's spreading out, which is what got me started. I don't want to teach yoga in a yoga studio. I want to bring yoga to people aren't being exposed to yoga. Why shouldn't they get the benefits of yoga? So I don't know who that person is, but that's the training that they took. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2022 data.

At the year of 2022, there were 1,827,600 people incarcerated in state or federal prisons or in custody of local jails. Yeah, we're closer to 2 million again now. Is that what it is? Yeah. So it's going up? It's gone up. After COVID, COVID went down for a while.

and it's gone back up again. But the thing is, if 600,000, I mean, it's the cycle, right? It's 600,000 are coming out. 80% are reoffended. It dawns on me that there's 2 million people in jail aren't 2 million new people every year. It's the same people just rolling in and out over and over and over again.

Well, certainly in county. jails, you know, and there's about a half a million people in county jails who are incarcerated. Of the half a million, about 400,000 have not been convicted. You're kidding. They're waiting. State prisons have the majority, over a million, over a million people incarcerated, and then federal prisons have about a half million. So that's how you divide up the, and then when you get into the racial inequities of those

who are incarcerated. For instance, African Americans comprise 13% of the U.S. population. I think it's 14 now. 14%? Yeah. 38% of the prison population. Yeah.

I think there's other data that goes along with that. I want to be careful with this, but because there's also a much, and I'm not saying this is right. I'm saying it's just, the facts that I've read, because there's also a greater, higher percentage of African Americans who grow up at a low income or poverty level, they are more susceptible to traumatic and tough things in their childhood, which leads them to a higher percentage of criminal activity

and thus incarceration. So while there is a disproportionate amount of African-Americans in prison, according to their population of the country, the real scourge to me is that there's a disappropriate percentage of African-American people in poverty in the first place. It's an economic thing. It is. And it's directly related to also a legal representative.

Yes. The quality of legal representation, right, access and representation, correct. Given all of that, when we talk about needing to fix the proverbial it, as it pertains to our prison systems, our overpopulations in jails, the enormous cost to our society of incarcerating people and crime in certain areas of our world that is absolutely, out of control, but we also should understand the data that there's two million people in jail, there's 70% recidivism rate, meaning those two million people, large percent of them

are just rotating in and out and in and out. If we could break the cycle of that rotation, we could bring this prison population down by probably half. Yeah, I would think so. There's a fairly large population of people who are life sentence with the possibility of parole, or life sentence without, so they're doing longer periods of incarceration, but that recidivism rate has to do with those who are actually getting out. Yeah.

So if we could teach them while in prison. Absolutely. How to control impulses, how to deal with the trauma that got them there in the first place, how to breathe, how to be centered, how to take care of oneself. doesn't the recidivist and them drop? Yeah, and it's not that everybody's going to embrace that, too. I mean, they could go through a program and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if you do involve the other things that I talked about,

which is, you know, really, really diving into issues of violence and things like that, it's pretty hard to avoid, you know, really feeling those issues. Did you ever think when you started yoga to fix your aching back and then thought, you know, these kids they could benefit from this because I remember them from my days in Chicago and then, you know, I want to give some time

to the prison population and see if this can, did you ever think that you would be putting out postcards that say the prison yoga project and diving into what if prison actually help people heal, could you imagine the evolution of this very simple thought you had that is now what it is? Global, yeah, no, I didn't.

From the time I walked into San Quentin as a yoga man with a yoga man, yoga man under my arm, I had no idea. I had no idea. Even when I wrote the book, I had no idea. So you're in, how many prisons? We're in 20 states and we don't break out, you know, the number of facilities that we're in in the United States and the ones that we're in in the country, but we're in over 220 correctional facilities. And probably at least 80% of those are in the United States. What other countries?

We're in the UK. We actually trained staff in the UK, physical education department staff. that runs their P.E. programs, but they're full-on correctional officers. We're in France. We're in Portugal. We're in Sweden. And people go, oh, Sweden. Sweden is very gnarly these days. Oh, Sweden has got major, major problems. And a lot of it has to do with problems that they've had with immigrants who they allowed into the country and they weren't able to assimilate and turn. They allowed too many too quickly and it over random. Exactly. Exactly. And We do business in Sweden, and there are towns in Sweden, the Swedish police will not go into.

Exactly. Yeah, the gang violence in Sweden is off the charts. Mexico, we have a big program in Mexico, and we're in the federal prisons. We are in some of the state prisons in Mexico, but mostly the federal prisons. We'll be right back. It's 5.23 p.m. One of your kids is asking for a snack. Another is building a fort out of your clean laundry, and you're staring at a half-empty fridge and thinking,

what are we even going to eat tonight? Or you could just hello-fresh it. With over 80 recipes to choose from every week, including kid-friendly ones, even for picky eaters, you'll get fresh ingredients and easy step-by-step recipes delivered right to your door. No last-minute grocery runs. No, what do we eat?

even have fridge staring. And the best part, you're in total control. Skip a week, pause anytime, pick what works for you. It's dinner on your terms. The kids can even help you cook. Yeah, it's going to be messy. But somehow, they tend to eat the vegetables they made themselves. Try HelloFresh today and get 50% off the first box with free shipping.

Go to HelloFresh.coma and use promo code Mom 50. That's HelloFresh.ca promo code Mom 50. HelloFresh.C. Hello Fresh, Canada's number one meal kit delivery service. Who would you call if the unthinkable happened? I just fell and started screaming. If you lost someone you loved in the most horrific way. I said through shot 22 times.

The police, right? But what if the person you're supposed to go to for help is the one you're the most afraid of? This dude is the devil. He's a snake. He'll hurt you. I got you. I got you. I got you. I'm Nikki Richardson, and this is The Girlfriends, Untouchable. Detective Roger Goloopsky spent decades intimidating and sexually abusing black women across Kansas City, using his police badge to scare them into silence.

This is the story of a detective who seemed above the law until we came together to take him down. I told Roger Golooski, I said, you're going to see my face till the day that you die. Listen to the Girlfriends Untouchable on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Stefan Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut. I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different. Visit Gentleman's Cut Bourbon.com or your nearest Total Wines or Bevmo. This message is intended for audiences 21 and older.

Gentlemen's Cut Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. For more on Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, please visit gentlemen'scutturbin.com. Please enjoy responsibly. Dad had the strong belief that the devil was attacking us. Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths. Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest-ranking law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience.

But his brother Larry, he stayed behind. and built an entirely different legacy. He was the head of this gang, and nobody was going to tell him what to do. You're going to push that line for the calls. Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it. When Larry is murdered, Gabe is forced to confront the past he tried to leave behind and uncover secrets he never saw coming. My dad had a whole other life that we never knew about.

Like, my mom started screaming my dad's name, and I just heard one gunshot. The Brothers Ortiz is a gripping true story about faith, family, and how two lives can drift so far apart and collide in the most devastating way. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, it's Chuck and Josh from the Stuff You Should Know podcast, and it's that time of year again when we knuckle down to do our annual holiday episodes. We collected our best past classic holiday episodes and compiled them into a 12 days of Christmas Toys playlist that the whole family can enjoy.

That's right. Maybe you missed it the first time we detailed the history of Beanie Babies, Monopoly, or Yo-Yo's, and a whole lot more. So listen to the 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Tell us about how this white dude from Chicago living in Chicago living in San Francisco gets invited to the genesis of yoga and how that even happened and what that ended up being to you.

You know, in reality, I have a very, very strong feeling of giving back. I take literally treat your neighbor as yourself, as you treat yourself, treat your brother and sister as you treat yourself. And I had a driving voice inside of me that was saying, when are you going to align your work with that? And I had no idea how it was going to turn out. But to be really honest with you, a very honest answer to you at,

it was prayer. It was prayer. And my prayer was how can I be? be of service. How can I take the benefits that I've had in my life? How could I take the benefits of yoga and bring benefits to other people? And get out of the way. It wasn't like, oh, I'm going to make a lot of money doing this. It really, it changed my life when I really focused on it. And it really became, and I don't talk about this very much. I don't, because it's sort of a personal thing. But it was, it has been my driving force.

And it's one of the things that really appealed to me about coming on this podcast, an army of normal folks. What is an army of normal folks doing to better society? What are they doing to take things into their own hands, to improve things in their community, to improve things with their neighbors? That's what it means to me, an army of normal folks. And it's not waiting for the government to do it for me. It's not, it's like, I don't want to sit around and talk about all the problems in this country.

It's like, get off your own and do something. That's how I felt about it. And I thought, I've received all these benefits in my life. There's a practice of yoga called karma yoga, which is being of service. And, you know, you could say Mahatma Gandhi was a karma yogi. mother teresa was a karma yogi a lot of americans have been karma yogis you know you don't have to call yourself a karma yogi but you basically your life was about serving other people does that make me a special person no no makes me somebody who's doing what i'm supposed to be doing we often talk

about that the magic happens when somebody's passion and abilities intersected opportunity That's this. You became passionate about yoga because it would did for you. You became trained in it, and you started to become interested and passionate and able in what rehabilitation meant. And it intersected an opportunity that you created by trying to put it into where you thought the most needy were. And now, look, how many, do you have any sense of how many prisoners have taken yoga classes through prison yoga project? thousands. Do you have any sense of how many have been released and are continuing to use yoga to keep themselves free? You know what's interesting about that, and I was talking to Alex

about that too, and that is, you get out of jail or prison and your main focus is, how am I going to make a living? Yeah, that's got to be. That's number one. Number two is, where am I going to live? Number three is, am I going to reunite with my family? What's that going to look like? that makes so much sense. I need a job. I need someone to live, and I need people who love me. Exactly, exactly.

And so are you going to roll out a yoga mat? But if you get a job and you get into a beef with your boss, what are you going to do? Break out into a yoga post? No, you're not going to break out into a yoga post. That's hilarious. No, you're not going to break out to a yoga post. But you're going to remember that.

breathing practice to calm your nervous system. You're going to remember James always saying your exhale is your body's built-in release valve. Don't forget that. Or another one of ours is take five mindful breaths. It can make a difference between a blind reaction and a cultivated response. And that's the reports that I get back over and over and over again. Hey, James, 10 years ago, I would have beat this guy's ass. This time I took five deep breaths, and I'm still out of jail. Even somebody who was in class last week will come to class early and go, James, I've got to talk to you, I've got to talk to you.

The other day I got into it with this guy, and in the past, we would have gone for it. And I took a couple of breaths, and I remembered hearing you say, just see if you can back off for a few seconds. And I didn't do it. I didn't do it. And they're all excited about the fact that they found impulse control. What a payoff. Yeah, that's a beautiful, I love that when I hear that.

I mean, that's got to be like worth it to you. But I'm sure all of these trained yoga facilitators you have all over these prisons all over the place, they all have to have those same stories. Yeah, they have their own stories, for sure. So what's next? You told me about a cool program in the car that you're working on? Oh, yeah. So one of the programs that we developed last year that we're going to roll,

or this year that we're going to roll out in January is a wellness program for correctional staff. For correctional staff. Recognizing that, you know, the average life expectancy of a correctional officer in this country is 61 years. is that right versus 73 for the rest of us i was going to say that's 10 12 years less than normal that's right and they're not because they're getting killed at work just stress probably vicarious trauma the trauma that they experience basically working with a traumatized population and the uncertainty

where there's a lack of safety predictability and control they're in the same boat yeah there's no safety predictability well they're supposed to have control but do they really have control And then the issues of, you know... How many people did you say were at St. Quentin? Right now, there's about 30, about 3,500. How many guards on shift? I wish I knew that. I wish I knew that.

I'd say a thousand, you know, and that's three different, that's three different... So 300 a shift probably? Yeah, about 300 a shift. They're outnumbered 11, 12 to 1? Yeah, about that I would say that's about right. That's stressful. Yeah, yeah. Has to be.

Yeah. And then, you know, they work, and it's like this, okay, we're done with work. We've experienced, you know, the stress of work. Let's go have a few, you know. Then they have a few. And all of these issues, there's a professor at University of South Carolina named Hayden Smith, who's done all this research on officer wellness. The substance abuse issues are off the charts.

Divorce. Among the prison guards. Around, among guards, suicide, off the charts, off the charts. All of this because of the issues that they're dealing with, this vicarious trauma, chronic stress. They call it toxic stress is what it's called. So, project, a prison yoga project, not only for the prisoners,

but for those who keep the prisoners. That's right. Why not? That makes so much sense. And you're rolling that out next year? We're rolling that out in January. Yeah, and it'll be a virtual. so they can have their, you know, they don't have to get into a group with each other and

have to talk about it. They can have tools to deal with these things. We have developed what we call micro practices that are practices that you can do within one or three minutes to interrupt some kind of an emotional response that you're having. And then a lot of other things, you know, that have to do with simple kind of things for self-care. Are you still doing it every... I'm still doing it. Well, I actually, I'm not, I'm not, I'm I gave up the class that I taught every single week, and now I'm the substitute at San Quentin. And I launched another program.

I'm working with San Quentin has what they call peer support specialists. And these are mostly lifers, incarcerated lifers, with the possibility of parole, most of them, who have life experience that they can share with their brothers in terms of being there for their brothers in different ways. and so they're under the medical staff. The chief medical officer of San Quentin, a physician, is basically training them and all these things.

And she asked me, would you do a training with these guys on trauma and introduce some tools for them? I said, absolutely. So I'm doing that. Last year, I provided a 12-week training for the mental health staff at San Quentin. The clinicians. I bet they're stressed on hard work. Oh, my gosh.

It's like, and there may be. a book, another book in the offing, but this book is going to be different. It's going to be told through me, but it's going to involve the voices of a lot of people that I've met along the way. Incarcerated people, chaplains. I mean, San Quentin's got a Muslim chaplain, a Jewish chaplain, a Protestant chaplain, a Native American chaplain, and a Catholic chaplain. I've known them all over the years. And then a lot of the other characters. They're probably stressed you need to have a chaplain yoga class. Probably, they probably need it too. Yeah, they're in better shape. They're in better shape. So it started, all of this started

in 2002, 2003 years. 23 years ago, yeah. 20 states later. Yeah. Thousands and tens of thousands and it's still growing. It's still growing. I think you're on your website, it says that 54,000 participated in your program last year. That's right. Yeah. 54,000. Yeah, in our program. Can you imagine? And that's the data that we're getting from attendance. Yeah. So that's not an estimate.

That's from attendance. But that's because you had a sore back after you ran eight miles one day. It's just phenomenal that it is so true when a passionate ability, intersected opportunity, amazing things can happen. And this has morphed into an entire focus on rehabilitation. for those who need it the most. What an amazing story, dude. Thanks. I mean, it's awesome.

It really is awesome. So when you hear prison yoga project, don't think, oh, we're giving mats to a bunch of prisoners and letting them stretch out on the ground. It's so far deeper than all that. Yeah, it's a deep dive. Anything else, Alex? I just think for people listening,

if you know people who are in yoga or yoga instructors and might be interested in receiving this training, make sure to share the episode of them. Or help in their own, yeah. If you know people who work at the prisons, you can share this with them to consider the program. How do they get in touch? So they can get in touch.

If they want to email, they can email info at prisonjorg. Our website is prison yoga.org. Got it. So if any of you are listening and you yoga instructors out there, want to serve, here's a really cool opportunity. And I bet if there's a prison you're not in and it's close to someone who thinks I would like to do something there, especially maybe even a women's facility, all they got to do is email you and you'll tell them to how to get it done, right? We'll help them. We'll definitely help them. I can't wait to get your next book.

I'm not in prison, but will you send me one? Oh, yeah, for sure. All right. James Fox, Everybody, founder of the prison yoga project based in Bolinas, California, San Francisco Barrier, who is making a difference for our society and those in it who need rehabilitation the most through using the basics of what yoga teaches for rehabilitation and trying to better our society. And James, the 23 years of this, this trip is, I mean, what a guy. But I wish you the best, and I just got to believe you're just going to keep on and keep it on making a difference in our community. And I thank you for all your hard work. Thanks so much for this opportunity to have the conversation with you, Bill.

Really appreciate it. Yeah, it's awesome. Thanks for being. And thank you for joining us this week. If James Fox has inspired you in general or better yet to take action by exploring becoming a facility, facilitator with them, sharing this episode with someone who might love that opportunity, trying yoga yourself, donating to a prison yoga project, or something else entirely, please let me know. I want to hear about it. You can write me anytime at Bill at normalfokes.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and on social, subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it. Join the army at normalfokes.com. Any and all of these things that will help us grow. An army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. Until next time, do it you can. I'm Stefan Curry. I'm Stefan Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut.

I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of, you know, developing the profile of this beautiful finished product with every sip you get a little something different visit gentlemen's cut bourbon.com or your nearest total wines or bevmo this message is intended for audiences 21 and older gentlemen's cut bourbon boon county kentucky for more on gentlemen's cut bourbon please visit gentlemen's cut bourbon.com please enjoy responsibly i know he has a reputation but it's going to catch up to him Gabe Ortiz is a cop his brother larry a mystery gave didn't want to solve until it was too late.

He was the head of this gang. You're going to push that line for the cause? Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it. When Larry's killed, gave us untangle a dangerous past, one that could destroy everything he thought he knew. Listen to the brothers Ortiz

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Who would you call if the unthinkable happened? I said, it was y'all 22 times. A police officer, right? But what do you? you do when the monster is the man in blue? This dude is the devil. He'll hurt you.

This is the story of a detective who thought he was above the law, until we came together to take him down. I said, you're going to see my face till the day that you die. Listen to the girlfriends, untouchable, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, everybody, it's Chuck and Josh from the Stuff You Should Know podcast, and it's that time of year again when we knuckle down to do our annual holiday episodes. We collected our best past classic holiday episodes and compiled them into a 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist that the whole family can enjoy. That's right. Maybe you missed it the first time we detailed the history of Beanie Babies, Monopoly, or Yo-Yo's, and a whole lot more.

So listen to the 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff here with a story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second season of my podcast, Shell Game, on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.