An Army of Normal Folks - Jamie Heard: Magnets for Suffering (Pt 1)

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

Jamie’s 2.5-year-old son died from choking on chicken. And her close friends couldn’t have kids, experienced late-term miscarriage, and breast cancer at 30 years old. They became magnets for others walking through tremendous suffering and realized that not everyone had their support network. Together, they founded Faithfully Restored, which has served 2,929 women with prayers and specialized care packages.   Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

One of my best friends, they found out they could not have biological children. And so they went through the adoption process. So we walked through that with them. They adopt Jack. We have some friends have late term miscarriages that we walk through before the summer before William died. One of our best friends had just turned 30 and was diagnosed with breast cancer, had two young kids, same age, Madeline and William. It's just tragic. And so we had had these things going on, these deep valleys that we didn't know what to do. And so we just kept showing up for each other. And so

when I got home from Vanderbilt that day from the hospital without William, I got to my back porch and there was this basket. And that's what we had been doing for our friends that were walking through different things. There was a bunch of these notes and a bunch of just comfort items and stuff. And I was like, okay, now it's my turn. Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy.

I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in inner city Memphis. And the last part, it somehow led to an Oscar for the film about our team. It's called Undefeated. Guys, I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using big words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather by an army of normal folks. That's just us, you and me deciding, hey, I can help. That's what Jamie heard, the voice you just heard is done.

After the tragic loss of her two and a half year old son, William, Jamie became a magnet for others who had experienced loss. And so did three of her friends who went through their own trials as well. Together, they realized how fortunate they were to have had each other while they walked through their pain. And not everybody in the world had this,

so they found it faithfully restored, which is prayed for and sent care packages to 2,904 women so far and counting who have had hardships ranging from child loss to widows cancer and Infectorily, I can't wait for you to meet Jamie right after these brief messages from our gender sponsors I'm Israel Gutierrez, and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade. The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. From the building of the core that included Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of

the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport. I just felt like the biggest thing was to earn the trust of the players and let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down. Today, the Warriors dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny six-foot-two hooper who everyone seems to love. For what Steph has done for the game, he's certainly on that Mount Rushmore for guys that have changed it.

Come revisit this magical Warriors ride. This is Dubb Dynasty. The Dubb's Dynasty is still very much alive. Listen to Dubb Dynasty on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Bob Pipman, Chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing.

I'm having conversations with some interesting folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like Chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Therang Amin. The way I approach risk is constantly try things and actually make it okay to fail. I'm sitting down with legendary singer-songwriter and philanthropist, Jewel. I wanted a way to do something that I loved

for the rest of my life. We're also hearing how leaders brought their businesses out of unprecedented times, like Stephane Boncelle, CEO of Moderna. He becomes a human decision to decide to throw by the window your business strategy and to do what you think is the right thing for the world. Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math, and the ever important

creative spark, the magic. Listen to Math & Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Has spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary.

He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie and he was the star of the show. Go-Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my skin, break my ribs. I had my feps all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started.

Rod you're saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one, Rod. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention.

This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild-haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell-bent effort to sabotage a war. J. Edgar Hoover was furious somebody violated the FBI, and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees. The FBI went around to all their neighbors and said to them, do you think these people are good Americans? It's got heists, tragedy, a trial of the century, and the god-damnedest love story you've ever heard.

I picked up the phone and my thought was, this is the most important phone call I'll ever make in my life. I couldn't believe it. I mean, Brendan, it was divine intervention. Listen to Divine Intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are we ready to fight? I'm ready to fight. Is that what I thought it was? Oh, this is fighting words. Okay, I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a bestselling author with the second most banned book in

America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. And that's what we're doing on Fighting Words. We're not gonna let anyone silence us. That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to stop the teaching of black history or queer history, any history that challenges the whitewash norm. Or put us in a box. Black people have never, ever depended on the so-called mainstream to support us. That's why we are great.

We are the greatest culture makers in world history. Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Jamie Heard from Nashville, what's up? Thanks for having me. Not much. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for driving down.

Do you people in Nashville get nosebleeds when you get, you know, west of Jackson, Tennessee? This is about my third time doing that. So yeah, it doesn't happen very often. I had to pack a snack to come over, yeah. Well, welcome to Memphis. A lot of folks in Nashville say Memphis is the biggest city in Mississippi. I hope you enjoy our fair town.

Well, thank you. Everybody, Jamie is the co-founder and executive director of Faithfully Restored in Brentwood. Not really Nashville, but is Nashville. For those listening who don't know, Brentwood's a, I guess a suburb of Nashville is what we'd call it. It's beautiful, actually. There's a lot here to unpack,

and we're certainly gonna get to faithfully restored in what it is today and all the amazing work you're doing. Little bit of a spoiler alert, you have a tremendous heart, Jamie, and selflessness in your call to service. But before we get there, we'll unpack kind of where you started from in your 30s. But tell me about you, just who you are, where you come from, how you're raised, who you married.

Tell me about you a little bit. Give our listeners a little glimpse into who Jamie is and where she comes from. All right. I am from a small town north of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So I'm a Yankee. You are? You're a damn Yankee.

You know the difference? Yeah. Yankees are from up north, damn Yankees stay. Stay, yeah. Right, okay. Yeah. So don't hold it against me. Down here now, I went to UT in Knoxville for school,

and really I went there, my two older sisters were there, oldest one wanted a big school with a good football team. There's a place called Penn State much closer to where you live that's a big school. No, she wanted out of state. She wanted out? Yeah, out of state, yeah. Okay, well you went big school.

And UT was at fire at that time, I mean it wouldn't be the case now. Big school with a good football team, I mean. She wanted out of state. She wanted out? Yeah, out of state. Okay, well you wanted big school. And UT was at fire at that time. I mean, it wouldn't be the case now. Big school with a good football team. I mean, that was... Yeah, she wanted out. You know, you're from a small town. You just kind of want out of the small town.

Get it. But childhood, I grew up with two sisters in the house. They were from my mom's previous marriage. And my parents got, I was the only one between my mom and my dad. And my parents got divorced when I was in fifth grade and I stayed with my dad. My mom took my two sisters and I stayed with my dad. That's uncommon. It is especially for a girl. Yeah, it really is. And looking back,

my dad loved me and that's all I felt growing up was love and realized, loved me and that's all I felt growing up was love and realized you know later as you go into counseling as one does after college and stuff that it was a little unhealthy and I had a counselor tell me that my dad basically put me in the position of every role in a marriage besides sexually so I felt it as love growing up. I was visiting my mom every other weekend and on Tuesday. So I had a relationship with her, but pretty surface level.

She let me do whatever she wanted or whatever I wanted at her house. So I loved that as a girl growing up. What 16 year old wouldn't. I know it's like, there's no curfew here. She doesn't care what I'm doing. This is great. And so there was a little of that.

My mom has a big family. And so anytime they went on vacation or anything, and my dad, it wasn't my mom's time. My dad didn't let me go. And my dad really drilled in me that my mom left me, which really happened. I mean, she drove me to school in fifth grade and said she was leaving and left,

but my dad took that and basically ingrained in me how my mom had abandoned me. And so, but I grew up feeling very loved by the people around me, had great friends. You know, I spent a lot of times at friends houses and a lot of my close friends moms were really close to me and loved on me. But I wanted, like I said, kind of out of that small town whenever it came time to graduate high school.

I knew I wanted out of that. Were you close to your sisters? I was there four and six years older than me. And so as close as you can be, I mean, kind of, there was never any, you know, anything negative, but we weren't that close. Um, we're a lot closer now as we're older, but growing up in my dad honestly didn't treat them well. And so there's a little of that of my dad treated me well, favored me. I mean, I even looked back on some old videos here recently and he like,

was like, get out of the picture to my sisters. And it was just like kind of cringish to watch, um, looking back, but I didn't know any of that growing up. And so my sisters didn't really love my dad and get along with them because he didn't treat them well, but they went off to UT. And then by the time that I was headed to college, they were not there anymore. So I went to UT and loved the idea of no one knowing me, of kind of, I wasn't running from anything, but it was just kind of a fresh start to no one knows you in college and you can just kind of It is a reset if you do it right. Yeah. Well, and I didn't, saying that I actually didn't do, I didn't start this, like, I always

say like, no one was looking at me in college of like, that is how I should follow Christ, or that is, that is the model Christian, like that was not happening. I was like, on bars having people take shots, like, and I mean, gathering, not, not great things. But, you know, you can't change that now. But I went to UT and met my husband December of our sophomore year, so pretty early into college.

And so we dated all through college and- What's his name? Daniel. Daniel? Yes, dashing redhead. You said you were a redhead. Just a little love for redheads. He is still a redhead, I'm like-

There's nothing like gingers to, to just warm your heart. Yeah. All you gotta do is ask my wife Lisa. She'll tell you you're not a redhead anymore. Bill, I'm precious. We talked about this. You don't have red hair anymore. It's all white or gray. I do have red hair at the roots. There you go. Pretty sure of it. Hopefully. Yeah. Daniel's getting a little gray too, but I like it.

It's like sprinkled in there. It's like distinguished. Well, it is distinguished. And you get a little white with a little red and a little silver in there once you get a little older. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, no, I'm still loving it. Chris Kringle was a redhead.

Let's remember that. The white haired Santa that everybody loves now. It took me a long time to get Lisa to go out with me because she was just kind of against redheaded people at first. She's like, I just don't think, I don't want to date a red. What did a red, I mean a redhead. It's honestly not something, you know, as a little girl, you think about like, I just hope my husband has red hair. That's not, so I wanted someone that was taller than me, that weighed more than me,

and that could play the guitar. That was kind of my three things. And Daniel is short, redheaded, and plays no instruments. No, he is taller than me, depending on if I'm pregnant or what, the weight, he's pretty small, so the weight can kind of vary. There are times that I've weighed more than him, sadly, and he does play the guitar.

Oh, well, one and a half out of three. Yeah, so. All right, so. I won the jackpot. He is so great. And we met early, dated all through college. I always knew I wanted to be a teacher. And so going to college, I knew exactly what I was going to do. What level? Elementary.

Got it. And so I graduated and then went on a year to get my master's in education and he went on to law school. So we were both still in Knoxville freshman year or like actually the year after we graduated, I was getting my master's his first year law school. But then after that, I would have gotten married if he would have asked me, but he didn't. He wanted to fall. He wanted to finish law school and kind of

get a little stable after law school. And so we, I moved to Atlanta and taught for two years and we dated long distance and that was really good. That time away, I mean we never broke up or anything, but I feel like we both had to grow up a little bit since we met pretty young. So he got in a Bible study at UT law school. And then I was in Atlanta, started going to Andy Stanley's church. And I feel like our faith really deepened whenever we were separated and kind of away from some temptation. So did the shots stop?

I wouldn't say stopped. I would say got progressively less. I love your blatant honesty. After college. I have a question. Yes. You alluded to, you know, when you graduate and you get out and you go to therapy

and just went right past that, kind of chuckled when you said that because you went past it because it seemed so obvious as you said it, but, and I'm not gonna get into your therapeutic sessions, but broken families, and I'm speaking from experience, so I'm not picking your story out, but I'm just saying broken families and dysfunction of the household

causes trauma in young people that is often carried well into their thirties, forties, and even fifties before they even understand it and reconcile with it. Is that your experience? Is not. Thank the Lord. I mean, I get so when we were spending those two years apart, a year into that, Daniel asked me to marry him. And so we were engaged and I was, I joined a small group through North Point and I remember going there one week and I was just so frustrated with my dad. He just, I could tell the closer Daniel and I got towards marriage. Almost jealous.

Yes. The less he, or the more he realized, the less I needed him, then he would just kind of lash out at me, which had always been his pattern, which he had childhood trauma. You know, his dad ran around on his mom, broken home. Let's be fair, we're all broken. Yes. Yes

Let's not pick on one guy. Yeah, no, but I but the reality is the reality and well and I think Like you said you carry it with you some people deal with it and some people don't and my dad was unwilling to even Try to work which is generational. I was gonna say that generation. Exactly. I don't fault him for that, but that's just the reality of it. I begged him to go to counseling and he wouldn't go. And so I went in, so I was at small group

and I was just venting about my dad and stuff. And they were like, you should go see a counselor. And I was like, what am I gonna say to a counselor and someone said it should be a Christian counselor and I was like I which I wouldn't have really thought of and I was like okay so I looked up a Christian counselor there was one guy that took my insurance it was $75 a time and I was like that's a lot of money and I went and that counselor saved my life. I remember the first counseling session I went to, he said, Jamie,

I was kind of telling my story and he said, Jamie, I'm going to get you to a point where whatever your dad says or does, doesn't have such a pull on you. And to be honest, I didn't even realize it did. I was like, that's kind of weird. I'm like, okay, whatever. That's the goal. It's fine. So I left that counseling session and I was like,

okay, that's fine. And whatever, you know, but I was committed to going. And it actually, when I went and talked about things, it felt really good. It felt good to hear feedback. It felt good to then understand all these things that had happened in my childhood and why maybe my dad was the way he was. And nine months later he shot himself. He had called me.

I was on the way home from Nashville. Daniel and I went to Nashville to look for a house. I was headed back to Atlanta and he called me on the phone and he said Jamie, I just want you to know that I love you. And I instantly I was like, Dad, stop, stop what you're doing. And he said, no, you knew. I knew. I knew it was kind of weird. I was five. It was three months before my wedding. And. Can I, that in and of itself is, I mean, clearly it's a broken man, but that in and of itself is a form of abuse

that you had to endure. I really, my dad is, was so great and loved like no one else. He was very broken and I truly believe it was on a Sunday when that happened. He had been out watching a stealer game, had drank, he got pulled over for a DUI. He was on probation for getting in a fight almost a year earlier. I remember that night he called me, that night he got in a fight, he called me.

And it was late at night and he was like, I just got in a fight. And it was like, right then it was like role reversal as you know, like a child might call a parent and say they just got arrested for a fight. It was reversed. And here my dad is calling me saying he got arrested for being in a fight, but he was on probation

and he got pulled over for a DUI, was taken to the hospital. And then a friend came to pick him up and I truly, he was like, I wanna go home and get some clothes. And so my dad's friend took, went home to our house and let him change. And that's when he went in and locked himself in the bedroom. And I truly believe at that moment he thought doing that was the best thing he

could do for everyone involved. Like I think his mind, I don't think it was premeditated at all. I think his mind went to, I may be in jail for her wedding. I mean he was on probation and got a DUI. So I don't know what would have happened. The possibility of that, I think crossed his mind. And I think he thought if I'm not here, it would be better for everyone. Clearly that's not truth. crossed his mind and I think he thought, if I'm not here, it would be better for everyone.

Clearly that's not truth. But when he called to tell me that I tried to stop him, I knew he had had a couple friends kill themselves as just growing up I remember that. And he always said how selfish that was. He was just like, I can't believe they did that. That is so selfish. And it would cause, it was just kind of weird thinking back to comment to your daughter about suicide. But so in that moment, I knew what he was doing. And so he hung up the phone. I called my neighbor across the street and I was like, you need to get over to

my house right now. And he ran over and both of them got in the house, but were outside the door when he shot himself. So that's devastating. Oh, it was, I mean, I thought, you know, here I am. I graduated with my master's. I get my first job. I have this amazing, soon to be husband. Like things are going so well.

We're really like, any dad should be like, wow, like you're doing it. Like I'm so proud of you. And he just really struggled. I think he was an alcoholic. I would say he was, he didn't drink every day. And when I was in the house growing up, he did not drink when he from fifth grade till I was a senior in college, he, I never saw him drink. And, but then after I went to college, I would come home and

he's probably lonely and self-medicating. Oh, for sure. For sure. Struggled with depression, but it was like when he started drinking, he could not stop drinking. He wasn't one that you could just go and have a few beers with. So there'd been times that I came back from college and he, but he's also that good guy at the bar, like buying everyone drinks, like no one, no one really knew that side of him, even that the way he treated me or, you know,

he would go off on me and make me feel an inch tall, you know, no one really saw that growing up, which I also didn't realize how hard that was for people to have this view of him and our family that was a little different from what was actually happening. Yeah, but that's everybody. You know? Yeah, it is. So, but I was thankful to have Daniel that because when that happened, I had been praying and I really had like grown in my faith like this is Lord

Whatever it is you have for me like I'm here for it and that happened and I was like, oh Hell no, like this is this is awful and I was so mad at God and just angry and here I am Having to plan my wedding. I'm like whatever whatever these flowers, like, I don't care. Like it's just, I had all this stuff to deal with that my dad left, you know, we had this house, he had this property, this place is like, I'm the only one. And I was so mad. I'm like, you left me with all of this crap

to take care of. And here I am supposed to be starting my first year of marriage and get a job. And it was just a cluster. And luckily, Daniel was so amazing and patient. And he really doesn't look back on that time that first year. Like I have some journal entries and just stuff. And the way I remember it, the way he remembers it is very different.

So I think I was internally really struggling. But I had things to be happy about too. I just married this amazing guy and we moved to Nashville together and everything. But it was rough. Those first couple years after my dad died. And now a few messages from our generous sponsors. But first, I hope you'll consider signing up to join the Army at normalfolks.us. By signing up, you'll receive a weekly email with short episode summaries in case you happen

to miss an episode or if you prefer reading about our incredible guests. We'll be right back. I'm Israel Gutierrez and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade. The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. From the building of the core that included Clay Thompson and Draymond Green, to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport. I just felt like the biggest thing was to earn the trust of the players and

let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down. Today, the Warriors dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny 6'2 hooper who everyone seems to love. For what Steph has done for the game, he's certainly on that Mount Russmorph for guys that have changed it. Come revisit this magical Warriors ride. This is Dubb Dynasty.

The Dubb's dynasty is still very much alive. Listen to Dubb Dynasty on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Had spent 24 of those years in jail.

12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie, and he was the star of the show. Go Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my skin, break my ribs, I had my guts all in my hands.

Only to find himself back where he started. Roger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one run. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bob Pitman, Chairman and CEO of iHeart Media. I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing.

I'm having conversations with some interesting folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like Chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Tarang Amin. The way I approach risk is constantly try things and actually make it okay to fail. I'm sitting down with legendary singer, songwriter and philanthropist, Jewel.

I wanted a way to do something that I loved for the rest of my life. We're also hearing how leaders brought their businesses out of unprecedented times, like Stephane Boncel, CEO of Moderna. It becomes a human decision to decide to throw by the window your business strategy and to do what you think is the right thing for the world.

Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Are we ready to fight? I'm ready to fight.

Is that what I thought it was? Oh, this is fighting words. Okay. I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a bestselling author with the second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. And that's what we're doing on Fighting Birds. We're not going to let anyone silence us.

That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to stop the teaching of Black history or queer history, any history that challenges the whitewash norm. Or put us in a box. Black people have never, ever, depended on the so-called mainstream to support us. That's why we are great. We are the greatest culture makers in world history. Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. you get your podcast. My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention.

This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell bent effort to sabotage a war. J. Edgar Hoover was furious. Somebody violated the FBI and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees. The FBI went around to all their neighbors and said to them, do you think these people are good Americans?

It's got heists, tragedy, a trial of the century, and the God damnedest love story you've ever heard. I picked up the phone and my thought was this is the most important phone call I'll ever make in my life. I couldn't believe it. I mean, Brendan, it was divine intervention. Listen to Divine Intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Luckily, I had great friends. We started going to a church in Nashville that really preached the truth. That was life-changing for me to get involved in a church. If I wouldn't have gotten married and had Daniel, I probably would have walked away a little bit from the church. I just was so mad at

God. I thought, how could he do this to me? Then you realize it's not about you. But I was very, that was my thought after all that happened. I thought, what kind of God does this to me? Yeah. So I, those first couple of years, I really struggled, but that was the first time in my life that it really had something that rocked my faith. And, but I look back now and everything in my past led up to a trial that I was going to face later. And the Lord was preparing me and I'm so grateful.

I didn't have, I couldn't look back in the mirror and thank God for all that had happened until I had really deepened my faith and was faced with another trial. And at that point when I had been praying for God's will, it was like, I meant it. My, my roots are deep and Lord, like I'm living for you. I have such an eternal perspective now that I'm so grateful for. There's a saying that a lot of people use that is God won't ever give you more than you can handle. And I think that's a crock. crock. I think that needs to be amended to God won't give you anything that you can't handle in faith. But if you're not in faith, there's going to be a lot people can't handle. And you know, the truth is, we're going to get to faith for the stored but the truth is I don't think faithfully restored happens had you not dealt with lots of things that need faith to restore you absolutely thinking about how you grew up thinking about the honestly the

reverse identity and you and your father living at home as a child and then you being on the phone with him minutes before he commits suicide only months before you're to get married when you've done all the right things you've graduated you got your masters you're getting engaged you're getting your life straight you're about to go to Nashville and start your dream job and boom, it's just another reminder about how broken our world is. And, but dealing with all of those things does set you up for sure,

which is why I wanted to share a little bit about how you came up. So, and I will say when I, after that happened, I flew to Knoxville, my mom at, when I was a senior in college, she moved down from my hometown to Knoxville. And after my dad died, I flew to Knoxville for a little bit. And my counselor was, he had also said in some of those sessions, like, I really think you need to repair the relationship with your mom. I'm like, I'm really here to talk about my dad. Everything with my mom is fine. We've never argued.

Actually, you're really there to talk about you, but you probably didn't understand that. Oh no, no, I didn't. Yeah, I didn't at all. And, but I went to my mom and I said, you know, I never really ask about the divorce. I never really, you know, ask questions. And she got tears in her eyes and she said, Jamie, she said, I have been praying for this day since the day I left. She said, I never would have left having thought that your dad was going to try to keep

you. And so we just have this incredible heart to heart and I get to hear her side of it all. And it's, it's been so sweet ever since we have such a close relationship. She does all of our finances for faithful restored. She moved to Nashville when we had our first child and that alone has been such a story of restoration in an area of my life that I didn't even know needed it. Grace could do amazing things. Yeah.

Okay, so here you are in Nashville, married, got your dream job, you're teaching what grade? Second. Second grade, a bunch of cute little. Oh, so cute. Yeah, right. If it wasn't for the parents, it would be a great job. So.

I had good parents. Oh, you're lucky. Yeah, I really, yeah. Not every teacher can say that. No parents. Oh, you're lucky. Yeah, I really, yeah. Yeah. Not every teacher can say that. No. But anyway, you got it. And then you and Daniel get pregnant. Tell me about that.

We have our first child, Madeline, precious, you know, perfect little girl. Two years later, we have a little son, William, and precious, perfect. And we are set. We have a we have a little son William and precious, perfect and we are set. We have a boy and a girl and we're like okay I think we're done having kids. I mean you are leave it to beaver happy. We are yep. It's just everything. What is your husband do? He's an attorney. He's a title attorney so he runs a title and escrow business. Okay so he's doing his attorney thing, you're

doing the teacher thing, you got the two kids, you're starting your life kind of reconciled with your mom a little bit. My mom, when we had Madeline, when I went back, I got to take off six months with each child, it was amazing. And when I went back to work, she would keep our kids one night a week and all the next day. And so you had date night, we had date night. I mean, everyone's like, what'd you do with that night? It flies. I don't, it wasn't some extravagant weekly date. It didn't matter, but it was kids screaming at you. It was fantastic. We had four and four years. Yeah, that's a lot. That's a bunch. So those date nights were, they were restorative in their own right, right? So everything seems great.

Everything is great. And you just alluded to an upcoming tragedy. We even, we were coming back from Knoxville. We did a weekend with Daniel's law school buddies from the Bible study. And I remember driving back in the car and they wake up early the last day and just like, how can I pray for you and stuff? And that was November. And we were just talking, what year are we talking? Probably 2015. And we're like, man, everything is just going really well. And that was late November. And then, it's kind of like everything leading up to your dad killing himself. Right.

Exactly. Exactly. The calm before the storm. Which I didn't even realize. And middle of December, I go to work one morning, Daniel goes to work and we have a nanny at our house. We nanny shared with our best friend. So they had a little boy, Jack, that was the same age as William. And so we would have her come to our house, stay with our kids. She'd take them out. It was, it was glorious. And so I get a call at work that William had

choked and he was not breathing. And I always say I got a call, but I actually didn't get a call. That's a lie. Two coworkers came to my door. I don't know why in my own story I say, I got a call. I don't know. Trauma has weird ways of manifesting itself. I don't know why in my own story I say I got a call. I don't know. Anyway. Trauma has weird ways of manifesting itself. I often say that, like I got a call. I even wrote it in a story that is published in a book

and I'm like reading this. I'm like, that's not even what happened. I don't know. But anyway. It's, trauma does very weird things to how you cope with and remember things. True. It just does.

It does. It's not really a lie. I know. Well, it is though. It's an inacc remember things. True. It just does. It does. It's not really a lie. I know. Well, it is though. It's an inaccuracy. Okay. But it's not a lie because...

Thank you, Bill. Thank you. But it's true. Yes. It's not a lie because somehow when we deal with trauma, our brains wire certain things to try to help shield us from the pain and it manifests itself in inaccurate memories. And you know what what I think that comes from is when

Madeline was 18 months old, I got a same classroom everything a couple years before this happened. I got a call in my classroom and said Madeline had a seizure and she's being transferred to Vanderbilt. That was your first trauma? That was my first trauma. So I think whenever I recall that, that honestly, I think that's why I say that because I had had basically the same almost to the day would have been a couple years prior. I got a call and said something happened with Madeline and she's being transferred

to Vanderbilt. So anyway, that's all. Yeah. So two people come to your room, two people come to my room and say, Williams choked. He's not breathing. Do they say that? Yes. Oh gosh. Not. I mean, what's, what's, what else do you say? I don't know. I'm just thinking about what your reaction to that is in front of a bunch of second graders. Well, here's the thing. I mean, my story, walking through all this, there are so many gifts that the Lord's like, I've got you. His hand is in all over this.

And one of those things was my class was at a recess and I was going to, we had a party that night. Our friends had a Christmas party and Daniel was supposed to dress up. And of course he didn't have a costume. So like, I'm going to go we had a party that night. Our friends had a Christmas party and Daniel was supposed to dress up and of course he didn't have a costume. So like, I'm going to go get him a costume. So I'm like, Hey, can you watch my class? It's Santa. No, it's it was a 20s.

It was a themed. I had, I had Chris Kringle in the 20s. Okay. He's like this big. Flapper girl. Yeah. He had, he had to be like, you know, some, I don't even know what I was going to get. But anyway, so I just go in to try to find a gangster outfit and I was back in my classroom

by myself and they found me. And so I instantly grabbed my keys and left, but I'll tell you, does choked and not breathing register with you yet or is it, I need to get to my son because they're taking care of him? He's probably scared. This this is crazy, but that morning I woke up early and I was like behind on a Bible study that I was gonna do. I was like I should get out of bed. We had at our work Christmas party the night before so no shots but maybe like two glasses of wine and so I was like so tired and I was like,

I'm just going to lay here longer, but I'm just going to spend extra time in prayer. You know, that, that, you know, so I didn't do my Bible study and I'm laying there and I'm praying and I'm praying. I just spend extra time praying in Lord, whatever it is you have for me, just give me the strength to get through it and Whatever it is. Like I just want your will to be done not mine and kind of spent extra time Praying in that and so when they said that as weird as it sounds I Knew I was like

Okay, like instantly my thought back in my head to them was okay Lord Like this is what you have for me. It is not good, but you are in control. You are going to take care of us. And I trust you. You didn't start crying or get hysterical? I had such a piece in me, like I knew, I knew exactly that he was not going to make nothing in me thought that I knew William is going to die But it's going to be okay Where what?

at home He was at home when this happened our nanny was sitting there at lunch Jack Was finished so he she went and put him down to sleep. She sent madeline up. She was four So like she barely napped, but she was like, go have quiet time or rest time, you know, get ready for rest time. And William had a couple bites left of this Costco chicken noodle soup that I had bought. And he choked on a piece of chicken and she did all she could. He went limp in her arms. She called nine one one. They got

there really quickly. And so Daniel got a call at work. His office was closer to the house. He made it to the house when they were working on them. And even one of the paramedics told him we had very different experiences and he made it to the house and a paramedic said, I've seen someone come back from this. And so he kind of had hope, hope. And so I got the call or I talked to them and they told me to go to Vance Williams and medical center. And so I beat the, I called friends on my way there and I was like, I just need you praying. Like Williams not breathing.

I need you praying. And so I beat the ambulance to the hospital and as soon as they pulled in and they wheeled him out on a stretcher and I was like, he's gone. I knew like his, he looks perfect, but he had an emptiness in his eyes. And I was just like, I know he's gone. And they wheel him in. It's like super chaotic in there and doctors are on nurse nurses are around and I'm like everyone is gonna watch this little boy die and lose hope in God. This is this is so terrible. And I just thought I'm gonna I'm gonna say a prayer. I want people to know that even though he dies, it is going to be okay. And the Lord is still with us. And that is, I'm talking like Holy Spirit,

like coming over me in a way that I've never felt before and a peace that I have never felt. And when they brought him in, he didn't even have a heartbeat when they brought him in. And the paramedics came over and said, we have, I think it was like at the 11th or 12th round of medication. And they, and I had, you know, I kind of, I'm like, I know he's not coming back. And they said, this is the last round of medicine that we can give them to get his heart to start

beating again. And I was like, okay. And his heart started beating. So I was kind of confused at that point. They never, there was never any signs of brain activity. So it wasn't like we think he's going to make it. Oh no, this brain activity is gone. Like there was never any sign of brain activity, but his heart started beating again. And so they're like, okay. So I was literally prepared in that room for them to his heart nuts to start beating and be like, God is still good. God is still good in this moment. We'll be right back. I'm Israel Gutierrez and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the

Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade. The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. From the building of the core that included Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport. I just felt like the biggest thing was to earn the trust of the players and let the players know we're here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down. Today, the Warriors dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny 6'2 hooper who everyone seems to love. For what Steph has done for the game, he's certainly on that Mount Rushmore

for guys that have changed it. Come revisit this magical warrior's ride. This is Dubb Dynasty. The Dubb's Dynasty is still very much alive. Listen to Dubb Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention. This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows

with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell bent effort to sabotage a war. J. Edgar Hoover was furious somebody violated the FBI and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees. The FBI went around to all their neighbors and said to them, do you think these people are good Americans? It's got heists, tragedy, a trial of the century, and the God-damnedest love story you've ever heard. I picked up the phone and my thought was this is the most important phone call I'll ever make in my life. I couldn't believe it. I mean, Brendan, it was divine intervention. Listen to Divine Intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Are you ready to fight? I'm ready to fight. I said, I'm ready to fight. I'm ready to fight. you get your podcasts. We ready to fight? I'm ready to fight. Is that what I thought it was? Oh, this is fighting words. Okay.

I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a bestselling author with the second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. And that's what we're doing on Fighting Words. We're not gonna let anyone silence us. That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to stop

the teaching of black history or queer history, any history that challenges the whitewash norm. Or put us in a box. Black people have never, ever, depended on the so-called mainstream to support us. That's why we are great. We are the greatest culture makers in world history. Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Bob Pipman, Chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia.

I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. I'm having conversations with some interesting folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like Chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Dharang Amin. The way I approach risk is constantly try things and actually make it okay to fail. I'm sitting down with legendary singer-songwriter and philanthropist, Jewel.

I wanted a way to do something that I loved for the rest of my life. We're also hearing how leaders brought their businesses out of unprecedented times, like Stéphane Boncel, CEO of Moderna. He becomes a human decision to decide to throw by the window your business strategy and to do what you think is the right thing for the world. Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math, and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeart Radio

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. I spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity.

He was an adrenaline junkie and he was the star of the show. Go-Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my screen, break my ribs, I had my guts all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. Roger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong.

You're so wrong on that one, Rob. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to Go Boy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And I kind of in my head I was rehearsing this prayer. Well then his heart starts beating and they're like, we need to transfer him to Vanderbilt. And so I get in the ambulance with, I sit in the front seat and he looked 12, the driver of this ambulance. And I'm sitting there with them and I was like, do you think I should post on Facebook to like ask for prayer? And the poor guy is like, I think whatever you want to do is fine.

And I was like, okay, so you're like, I'm looking back. They're like still trying to work on them and stuff. They're back there with them. And I just get on Facebook and say, you know, here's the deal. William's not breathing. I need everyone praying for him. And we take him to Vanderbilt and there was never any sign of brain activity, but they got him stable. So he's basically back in a room, stable looks perfect. Looks like he's sleeping. The amount of people that show up at Vanderbilt

We had such good community church my work friends family we had such good community and the Waiting rooms just poured full of people people praying people just being there whatever it was and It was such a crazy time because here, here's this little boy, I remember our pastor came in and we were just like laying over him. I never prayed for a miracle. I mean, people all over were and that's totally fine. I never prayed for a miracle. The Lord gave me such a peace that he was already gone. But now I'm in this confusion of like what happens now. I just like, I remember praying over like, just be

with Jesus. Just, just go just, you know, I didn't want him to have any pain. I didn't want, I didn't want him to feel any pain or anything. And so I just wanted him to be in the arms of Jesus. And we spent that night. I mean, tons of people were there and everything and it's late. And I remember our pediatrician shows up and she is probably 11 something at night. She'd finally gotten the word that we were there. And she said to me, she said, Jamie, I always tell my kids, they're borrowed from above. And I was like, man, that was hard truth to hear, but it's what I needed.

I wanted, I needed people saying that to me. I knew it. And I was like, yes, absolutely. And so we went back to the room that night, late, it's just Daniel and I, and I was like, I think we can get through this, but you can't leave me. And he was like, and I just, my mind instantly, I mean, he's like, her son is back there on a ventilator, but I had already so quickly went to our son just died and I can't have you leave me like I can't I can't

walk through and I knew the statistics were so high on people losing a child in the divorce rate and that's you know the night this happened that's kind of where my mind went and he was I mean of course he was like Jamie and so we go to bed that night and the next morning we meet with a what's next guy. And I thought he was in there to plan the funeral. And he said, we want to present you with the option of organ donation. And my confusion in my, like, am I going to have to decide when to pull the plug on a two year old or like what happens now?

I had such a piece that he was gone, but now here we are. He's stable on a ventilator. Like what happens now? I had such a piece that he was gone, but now here we are. He's stable on a ventilator. Like what happens now? And when he presented organ donation, it was such an answered prayer. And Daniel and I were like, absolutely. And it was this spark of hope of like, okay, Lord, you see us in this. And now our prayer shifted to, I want you to help as many people as possible. Like this is why your heart started beating again. This is why we're here. And so I know not everyone gets that. It's such a gift.

Also with organ donation, you know, I learned a lot in the process. I didn't know much about it. I was, you know, 16. They say, do you want to be an organ donor? I was like, sure. And learned a lot about it. And they were, they said, we're going to have to keep him alive longer to try to match as many organs as possible, which was such a gift to us because, you know, he was back

there sleeping. We were deciding, do we bring Madeline up to the hospital? She's four. Do we have her remember him, you know, at home that morning together? Or do we have her remember him with a bunch of tubes, you know, in a hospital room? So we were kind of gathering wisdom on that, seeking wisdom from other people. And that was also a gift with organ donation that they said, he'll, we'll keep him alive till Monday till he goes in for surgery. And then halfway through the surgery, they turn off the ventilator.

So that was also such an answered prayer of like, what now, what happens next? And we thought if we could give someone three more hours with their person they love three days 30 days 30 years like we would have taken any amount of time longer with William so if we are in a position that our son can do that for someone that's what we want to do and it was such I don't feel like organ donation is talked about on the donor side as a gift. And man,

it has just been such an incredible gift for our family. And even with Madeline, we brought her to the hospital. Child life of Vanderbilt was fantastic. They're angels on earth, faithfully restored. We partner with them. I mean, they're just incredible people. And really we brought her up to the hospital room and she sat on the side of his bed and she looked at him and she looked at me and she said, mom, I really wish William didn't die. I was like, I know I do too. She said, but he's alive in heaven.

He is. And so even to hear that truth spoken back to us from our four year old was what we needed. And it was such a sweet time at the hospital, tons of friends and family. It was such a spirit filled room. The nurse that cared for him, we said goodbye the first night and she showed up the next day and she's like, I just couldn't leave them. She's like, I was at home and I just couldn't leave them. She came back every day until the surgery. We still keep up with her. Now she was dating someone.

She's got engaged, has a couple of kids now, just incredible. And the people that came in that room felt the presence of the Lord. And it was just a holy time, which sounds so crazy when you're talking about a hospital room of a basically dead two-year-old. And so all sprinkled throughout there are such gifts. And then we say goodbye Monday morning and get back to the house. And it was the next day and our friends were over making memory boards and someone said, did you hear about Ava? And I was like, who's Ava? And they said, we think we know where William's heart went. And I had overheard a nurse at Vandy say his heart was going to Chicago. His kidneys were going as a block to North Carolina and his liver was going to Texas. And normally you don't know that.

You don't hear that. I just overheard a nurse say that. And so from posting on Facebook, a friend of mine was sharing William's story and a friend of Amy's was sharing Ava's story. And an 18 month old little girl Ava Martin in Chicago had waited 111 days for a heart and Monday she received her heart and So we watch a news story Ava had been covered by the Chicago news And so we were able to watch a news story and the surgeon

Is wheeling in the cooler with Williams heart in it takes the heart out of the cooler and there surgeon is wheeling in the cooler with William's heart in it takes the heart out of the cooler and there this is all we're watching it and puts his heart in her and said welcome to your new home and I was like I love them I love them and so I'm like Daniel I'm gonna message her he was like what yeah he's just like slow down. This is a little much. I was like, OK. I was like, I'm going to message her. So I got on Facebook, and this is Tuesday night,

and I sent her a message. And I said, I don't know if this is it, but our son passed away. And we donated his heart yesterday. I heard it was going to Chicago. And I said, regardless, I'm so happy for you and your family. And I will be praying for Ava and within 20 minutes I get a message back and she was like,

Ava's transplant was the only pediatric heart transplant in Chicago yesterday. And so we instantly knew. And so we start writing each other back. They have an older sister, Ella. So she was sending me pictures of her two girls. I was sending pictures of Madeline and a story that only God could write. We connect and we're there. Some of our best friends. We vacation together. Now we have two girls.

We had went on to have another little girl. Are your kids friends with Ava? Oh, they're, they're heart sisters. Oh yeah. They're truly four little peas in a pod and it has been the greatest blessing and it's just so incredible. So we we see each other all the time I'm sitting over here teared up listen to your story, which makes me a big old wuss. I mean there's My goodness so much and I know people are listening to you and are teared up driving down the street right now maybe you even caused a wreck but Don't put that on her. Yeah.

But I can't help, the profound is what always hits me in the face. I'm sure you have, but I just want to hear your thoughts on how so vastly different your response is to your son's death and your father's death. One was I hate God and the other is I thank God. How does that change happen in one's life? I think it's over time. A couple there is, you know, how many years we lost my dad died in 2008 and William died in 2015.

So in that time, I feel like a huge part of that was attending a church that really challenged me to deepen my faith. And I heard the word preach to me in a way that just really resonated with me. And I had, I had a desire to seek the Lord's will in a way that I had not before. And although I was saying those same words before my dad died, I mean, literally I was, you know, I listened to a sermon on prayer from Andy Stanley that changed my prayer life.

And so I'm praying the words daily, Lord, I just want your will to be done. But when I was praying that before my dad died, I really was had my hands clenched. It's like, I want your will to be done, but really only if it fits within what I want. And so, which, you know, I didn't know that at the time, but then... You hadn't surrendered yet. No, I had not. And I would, you know, I was a Christian, everything about it, but over those years before we lost William, it really, my faith was deepened from truly surrendering and believing

the Lord's goodness. And that's what it was. It was a surrender. I had not fully surrendered and I was, I was trusting the Lord, but really I kind of wanted my will to be done. And I will tell you the difference was unbelievable. I mean, I would say, I mean, I think everyone would agree it's a greater loss losing a child than a parent, but man, what made the difference? It's the most unnatural for sure.

Yeah. Was my faith and my true belief in Lord, I do trust you. I know I don't have all the answers. I don't, and I don't even think we'll get them one day. I don't, I don't think every answer or every question will be answered, but there's a point where you don't need them. We don't need it. There you have it. Yeah, and I Trust that and so that's my heart for other people listening I want It's not if something's going to happen. It's when

and so Man, if you can surrender And be like lord truly whatever it is you have for me, I'm here for it. You just are able to see his goodness. And I can say that even losing a child, I know there will be more people in heaven because of William's story. And as a mom, like what greater gift than for your kids to bring people closer to Christ?

Well, and there's people on earth living today because your son right? Mm-hmm in that same vein. I can't imagine you didn't impart that same Level of faith on your nanny. Mm-hmm. Oh We love her. She actually now has a two-year-old Wow and was born actually right around the anniversary of losing William. And she's fantastic. We have never blamed her. And you know, we, I talked about the gifts, like I see the Lord's hand in all of it and

the paramedics that got to our house could not remove the piece of chicken. So how could she have? And how could she have? And that one little, I think, and they didn't remove it till they got to Williams Medical Center. But I think if they would have gotten there and been able to remove it, but it was just too late, I think I would have felt like, man, I think she could have done something or I wish I was there that I could have done something. Yeah. But if, if a paramedic can do it,

you or a nanny aren't going to do it. And I was able to say that to our daughter. And so, you know, Madeline's very verbal has always been and what a gift because a couple of days after William died, we were in the car and she was like, mom, you know, I wish I was awake when William died. And I was like, why? And she's like, I just think I could have saved him. So I was able to say to her, you know, great opportunity, you know, the paramedics that are trained to do that, they couldn't even say they have tools. Yeah. And so you wouldn't been able to say him, save him.

And I'm so thankful that she was what, what at one point was like, this kid does not stop talking. She doesn't stop talking. Like, I can't wait till she goes to kindergarten. And her teacher's like, she doesn't stop talking. From once was that frustration. Was like, man, Lord, thank you for that.

Because she didn't carry that guilt. She was able to say everything that came to her mind. And we were able to process out loud. Another blessing. And that concludes part one of my conversation with Jamie Heard and you do not want to miss part two that's now available to listen to. So as Sophia and I sit here, which is Alex's oldest daughter, we're thinking about how together we could actually change the country and how it starts with you. But we really want to see you in part two.

Sophia, what do you got to do to get these people to go to part two? You have to go to part two. You don't want to miss it. That's right. Ring the bell. Bell ringing. Tell them. Go to part two. Go to part two. All right. We'll see you in part two. I'm Israel Gutierrez and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dove Dynasty, the story of how the

Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade. The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. Today, the Warriors Dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny six foot two Hooper who everyone seems to love. For what Steph has done for the game, he's certainly on that Mount Westmore. Come revisit this magical Warriors ride.

Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Sam Mullins, and I've got a new podcast coming out called Go Boy, the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Has spent 24 of those years in jail.

But when Roger Caron picked up a pen and paper, he went from an ex-con to a literary darling. From Campside Media and iHeart podcasts, listen to Go Boy on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm ready to fight. Oh, this is fighting words. Okay, I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a bestselling author with the second most banned book

in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. Part of the power of black queer creativity is the fact that we got us, you know? We are the greatest culture makers in world history. Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes as dads, I think we're too hard on ourselves.

We get down on ourselves on not being able to, you know, we're the providers, but we also have to learn to take care of ourselves. A wrap-away, you got to pray for yourself as well as for everybody else, but never forget yourself. Self-love made me a better dad because I realized my worth. Never stop being a dad. That's dedication. Find out more at fatherhood.gov. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.