An Army of Normal Folks - Khali Sweeney: The Boxing Gym Where No One Boxes (Pt 1)

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

Khali started Downtown Boxing Gym to use boxing as the hook to teach vulnerable Detroit kids about life. Ironically, none of the kids are now using their boxing ring, but their STEAM Lab and other awesome stuff have helped 1,500 kids graduate high school and 98% go on to post-secondary education! Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

So I lost a car, so what? I lost an apartment, so what? I lost friends who didn't get it, so what? I lost family who didn't get it, so what? I don't care about that. But to lose a life, something so precious as a human life, to lose a life, somebody who could potentially be the next person to invent something, a scientist, doctor, lawyer, who might have a cure for cancer. One of our coaches told me one time, he said, man, the scientist, doctor, lawyer, who might have a cure for cancer. One of our coaches told me one time, he said, man, the most talented is in the graveyard. And I looked at him, I was like, man, how true that is.

Some of your greatest discoveries are in a graveyard. Some of the guys who may have solved the mysteries of the universe are in a graveyard or sitting behind bars somewhere. When I hear people say, man, these people can play basketball better than Michael Jordan in prison. And I say, man, what a waste. What are we really losing by losing a car

or an apartment or a few pounds? I'm willing to make that sacrifice to save a life. Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband. I'm a father I'm an entrepreneur and I've been a football coach in inner city Memphis and the last part somehow It led to an Oscar for the film about our team that movie is called undefeated Guys, I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits

using big words that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox, but rather by an army of normal folks. That's us. Just you and me deciding, hey, you know what? Maybe I can help. That's what Colley Sweeney has done. As you just heard, he lost everything, he has done. As you just heard, he lost everything except his integrity and his soul to try to save the lives of Detroit kids. From that humble start, Downtown Boxing Gym has since served 1,500 kids and get this, 100% have graduated from high school and 98% have gone on to post-secondary education. I cannot wait for you to meet Kali right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Hey, y'all. I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz.

My podcast, When You're Invisible, is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season two is all about community, organizing, and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened

when a couple of people said, this sucks, let's do something about it. I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know we get paid to serve you guys, but be respectful. We're made out of the same things, bone, body, blood. It's rare to have black male teachers.

Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament. Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the MyCultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. Leave the Gun, Take the Canoli is based on my co-host, Mark's,

best-selling book of the same title. And on this show, we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the godfather's birth from start to finish. This is really the first interview I've done in bed. Ha ha ha ha! We sift through innumerable accounts. I said, 35 pages, very much.

Many of them conflicting. That's nonsense. There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened. And they said, we're finished, this is over. They know this stuff's gonna work. You gotta get rid of those guys, this is a disaster. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features

new and archival interviews, with Francis Ford Cobola, Robert Evans, James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Canoli on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How serious is youth vaping? Irreversible lung damage serious, One in ten kids vape serious?

Which warrants a serious conversation from a serious parental figure like yourself? Not the seriously know-it-all sports dad or the seriously smart podcaster? It requires a serious conversation that is best had by you. No, seriously, the best person to talk to your child about vaping is you. To start the conversation, visit TalkAboutVaping.org, brought to you by the American Lung Association and the Ad Council. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes or villains,

or often somewhere in between. Listen to the greatest true crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food.

I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food. I'm gonna go get some food. Good. Did you get here last night? Yep. Yeah, did you go eat anywhere? Did Alex take you anywhere to eat worth a crap? No, we went we went to a couple good restaurants I actually had fun if the food was delicious, especially the one we went to last night was

You and then we had McEwen's you had barbecue and McEwen's. Yeah central for lunch. Yeah, and then McEwen's for dinner What's wrong with that? Nothing wrong with that. Both excellent spots, if you ask me. I mean, I had both excellent. Well, and I've read that Khali really likes the blues, and this is the home of it. Did you take him to anywhere to listen to some blues?

No, I mean, I had other words. OK, you're a loser. No more talking to the producer. Yeah. Yeah. Because somebody did their research. You are a blues guy. I mean, I love the blues. Well, you know, you're I mean, you're only an hour and a half north of the crossroads. OK, OK. So I mean, there are people selling their soul down there. No, no. So Khalees Sweeney is a downtown boxing gym from Detroit now called DBG, I believe.

Correct. Y'all call it DBG, right? Correct. Who's doing some amazing work and has a crazy interesting story. And where you are now doesn't really have context without understanding where you came from. I know at six weeks old, your parents gave you away

to a woman in the neighborhood. I'll start there and let you take it to maybe adolescence and give us an insight into fundamentally how you came up and why that's germane to what we're doing today. So like you just said, my mother and father, they gave me away when I was a young, when I was a baby. They not only gave me away, they gave my brother away too because they were dealing with some issues with narcotics, with drugs, and they were dealing with some...

To the same lady, by the way, or do they separate you? No, separated. narcotics with drugs and they were dealing with the same lady by the way or they separate it. My brother went my brother went with my biological family and I went to the lady down the street. I don't know how it happened but that's how it happened. That's how it worked out and um you know you know how you feel you feel that you feel that abandonment you know what I mean you feel that abandonment why me and um so I had a chip on my shoulder and I went to school. You know, I just always had just a little chip on my shoulder and then when I found out

I couldn't read or write in the third grade, because I realized it myself, I couldn't read or write. Third grade, I knew that I couldn't read or write at all. I knew it. And so I developed these little strategies to get kicked out of class. I would start cracking jokes, hoping that they'll kick me out

and just like clockwork, they would either kick me out and the times that they didn't kick me out. I'll just punch somebody in the face I'm like they're gonna kick me out regardless. I'm gonna start a fight or whatever and I would do that and uh in the third grade Nobody nobody asked me the critical question. Like, you know, what is the problem? What's going on? You know instead I can remember my third grade teacher I can remember one of my third grade teachers and the gym teacher, the gym teacher at that. They would let me and my friend out of class and we would go down the street and pick up their package. And their package would be some gin and orange juice and two packs of cigarettes. And so we would do that and they'd pass us to the next grade. And so we would be the guys who run to the store and get their stuff and bring it back

to school. In third grade? Third grade. I would go down to the corner store and pick up their package. So two questions. That's a teacher doing that. Yes. And then there's an adult at the corner store giving a third grader gin and smokes.

Correct. What's up with that? You tell me. I don't know. But that was how invested they were into my future. At some point in time, they gave up on me ever being successful, because all the other adults would always tell me, you're gonna be dead

or in jail before you're 21. What do you see yourself? You're not gonna be able to work at a garbage, you're not gonna be able to be a garbage man, or you're not gonna be able to work at a fast food restaurant. So what is the other options for me? What are you telling me at third grade,

at third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade? What are you telling me? You're not giving grade, fifth grade? What are you telling me? You're not giving me any other options. You're just telling me that I'm gonna be dead or in jail before I'm 21 and I'm not gonna be able to work as a garbage man or a fast food restaurant. So you give up on life. You give up on dreaming. I stopped dreaming as a kid. I didn't think about that. The only thing I used to think about is what it's gonna be like when I get killed. Are they gonna really remember me? They already gave me away. Who's gonna be hurt? Do you really remember at a young age

thinking about what it's gonna be like when you get killed? Yeah, I remember that. I remember everything. I remember my first day of school. I remember a guy shooting at me. I remember all of that. I remember walking down the railroad tracks, getting shot at and screaming

and chasing the person that was shooting at me because I thought this person was the person I was supposed to look up to. So I remember all these things. I don't forget it. When the guy I was supposed to look up to. So I remember all these things. I don't forget it. When the guy you're supposed to be looking up to is like a gym teacher, supposed to be a mentor, and you're rolling to pick up smokes and gin for him. I mean at that age, at that impressionable age, were you cognizant of how dysfunctional

that was or did you just think that was the world? No, not at all. I didn't, I didn't, that didn't, it didn't faze me. I didn't think about that at all. That didn't make, I couldn't rationalize that. I didn't understand that. I was a child. I was still trying to find the words to ask for help.

And the way that I was asking for help was to start a fight or crack jokes. You know what I mean? I didn't have the language to even ask for help for myself to let alone know that going against cigarettes was wrong. I don't know that. A friend of mine has a non-profit organization called Coaching for Literacy. You may have seen it. Coaches, football and basketball coaches in the pro and college level wear little green ribbon lapel and they the whole idea is to raise money and bring light to the fact that there's a lot of kids in our community that can't read and the reason

it I'm bringing this up and I hadn't even thought about this for right now but you said third grade and one of the demographics they talk about all the time is that if a kid is not reading and writing on a grade level at third grade, he is 72% more likely to end up in jail than he is to have a job. Yeah, I've heard that. Third grade. Yeah, I've heard that. I heard grade. Yeah, I've heard that. I heard that here in America,

and I've heard it in Germany. I was in Germany, when I was in Germany, they were saying like, by the third grade, they already know where you going by your test scores. And they were saying that in Germany. And I've been hearing that a lot my whole life about third grade test scores. But the thing about what I'm saying is like,

there was no intervention if this knowledge about third grade there should have been some intervention at that stage but it wasn't I made it all the way to the 12th grade without being able to read or write and so wonder how does that work you just make it you just keep going you go to class or you don't go to class or whatever and somebody pass you if your school is not gonna get what they need if it's a failing school somehow you're gonna slip through the cracks.

I see it right now today. And what you mean and what I learned at my time at Manassas, listen man, Detroit, Memphis, Chicago, Charlotte, Birmingham, Montgomery, Albuquerque, Denver, LA, wherever you live and you're listening from, Detroit is...the conversation we have is only a microcosm of what's happening all over our country. And that is in inner city schools. And do not equate that with black because in some neighborhoods in West Virginia, this happens with all white kids in inner city schools and some areas out West it's heavily Hispanic but in a lot of the inner city there are kids that get advanced because they simply get old

enough or big enough and the reason is the school does not get their funding if they don't show passing grades. Speak it. Well, you said it, but like I said- But I mean, you lived it. Oh yeah, you said it. So with that being said, I don't want to ever come down, really come down on the school itself, because I know there's some teachers there who really love their job but at the end of the day if you if you have you don't have the resources you don't have the resources. I think some resources should be poured into these

school systems and pay these teachers what they deserve and pour some resources into these schools and that way they can get things done but a school can't do what we do. What we do in our program, what we do in our program, if we have a kid or we identify a young person who is behind grade level, we can go back and work with that young person to get them above grade level. The school system may necessarily can't do that.

Like you just said, I can't have a guy 17, 18 years old in the fifth grade. He's not gonna blend in the fifth grade. If he's 17, 18 years old, the fifth grade. He's not going to blend in the fifth grade. If he's 17, 18 years old, he got hair on his face. He can't be in the fifth grade. But in our program, we can go back to the fifth grade and give him the foundation that he needs to be successful in life. Our listeners are probably confused hearing downtown boxing gym in your program. We'll get to that. Spoiler alert, we will get to that. But there's more to unpack

about you. And there's another question. This is one of the squirrels I'm chasing up a tree. But I agree with you. Again, I've worked in their city. I've been a teacher for a living. Most teachers do not go into it because they think they're going to get rich. Most bright eyed college student getting out of school teachers are really genuinely do it because they think they're gonna get rich. Most bright-eyed college student getting out of school teachers are really genuinely do it because they wanna teach. And depending on the district and the school and the administration they get with, determines their ability to be successful a lot. And the district's need for money and the top heavy administrative stuff that goes on

in a lot of public districts take away from the kids and that is one of the biggest services of our culture, but Children need to be read bedtime stories they need to be sung lullabies because if you aren't if you aren't hearing language and because if you aren't hearing language and being read to and seeing words and associating pictures with words when you're in third, fourth, and fifth grade, I don't care what the school does, you are behind. So when you say what you said about the school,

saying I wanna take up for some of these teachers, I do too, but honestly, I wanna hit some of these folks in the mouth that are But honestly, I want to hit some of these folks in the mouth that are having kids and don't do nothing with them. So are you talking about the parents? Yes sir I am. I want to be clear because you said- Some of these folks?

No, no, no, no. I'll be clear. No, no, no, no. Earlier you said these kids need to be, they need to read other kids, Lollobro. That's what you said earlier. You what you said earlier you made a mistake. I got you. When children, the science and the research says when you read a bedtime story and children see pictures and associate them with words when they're three four and five and they're hearing lullabies in the home and they see books and reading in the home, they've got a shot. But these kids who never see that in the home are already against baseball before they ever get to school. So I got you.

So I got you. I wanted to be clear about it before I answered. So here's my answer, right? I'm going to show you. I'm going to show you in real time. Me, I couldn't read or write at all. The guy who adopted me, him and his wife, he came from Philadelphia, Mississippi, picking cotton. He couldn't read or write. His father couldn't read or write. My biological father couldn't read or write. My mother who just passed away from Mississippi, they came up here from picking cotton. They came up here from picking cotton. They came up here from share

cropping. They came here from a school district that was far different than the school districts that you see in the suburbs. So they could barely read or write. Only thing they did, they came to Detroit, when all our families came in Detroit, because most of the people that you see in Detroit come from the south. They were all sharecroppers and picking cotton. Them guys that's down in Detroit right there, they came down there to get those jobs in the factories. My father worked at General Motors for 33 years, could not read or write. Only missed two days of work because he was in a car accident.

And by the time he left General Motors at 33, he was sweeping the broom in there. So no, he didn't read to me at home. He heavily believed that the school system would take care of that. And a lot of our parents who have to work and struggle to pay rent and pay their bills, they believe wholeheartedly that the school is the answer. But now we're telling them that you need more than just the school. You need after school programs. You need intervention.

You need other help. Youth as the parent, you need to, if you have time, take some courses or get your kids in some extra places for extracurricular activity. Because that's what's happening in every suburb across America. It's not just at school. It's when they get home, they got other things to do. And like you say, they see the parents hold multiple degrees. If you look at where I'm from in Detroit, nobody holds a degree. These are first generation young people that are going to school. This is something that happened a long time ago. It's nothing new.

At one point in time, it was never illegal for you to learn how to read and write. It was illegal at one point in time for other people to learn how to read and write. So that was passed on generation and generation and generation. It was only 50 years ago. 60 years ago, that's not a long time.

We're not talking about 400, 500 years. We're talking about 60 years, 50 years. So that's the difference. So it's going, it is a gap. There's a gap that needs to be filled, but it's gonna take time. It's not punching anybody in the mouth. It's education, understanding, and bringing people along for the journey. That would mean that you weren't the only guy going through your school system that was graduating with the same problem. Correct. I literally had guys that I went to school with and I'm thinking these guys are like I'm thinking they're crushing it. I felt alone. I felt the

shame. Not being able to read is a lonely place. I'm gonna tell you that. It is lonely. It is the loneliest place. You order food even though you don't want it. You just say, I'm gonna have what you having. And after I told my story publicly, I literally had friends that I grew up with come out the woodwork like, man, you know, I couldn't read or write either.

Man, I never, you know, they just passed us. And then certain things became a joke. Like, man, you know, such and such, they just passed. I'm like, wow. I found out some of the young ladies, some of the young people. It's like, it was a disservice done to our community. And it was done, I don't think intentionally.

I really don't think it was intentionally. I think it was financing and I believe it was overcrowding and people slipped through the cracks. That's the only thing I hope. I'm hoping for the best of humanity. That's what I'm hoping for. And now a few messages from our generous sponsors. But first, I hope you'll consider signing up

to join the Army at normalfolks.us. By signing up, you'll receive a weekly email with short episode summaries in case you happen to miss an episode or if you prefer reading about our incredible guests. We'll be right back. Hey, y'all, I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast, When You're Invisible,

is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season 2 is all about community, organizing, and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks, let's do something about it.

I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account, or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know we get paid to serve you guys, but like be respectful. We're made out of the same things, bone, body, blood. It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament.

Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the MyCultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the MyCultura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Canole. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture.

Leave the Gun, Take the Canole is based on my co-host Mark's bestselling book of the same title. And on this show, we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the Godfather's birth from start to finish. This is really the first interview I've done in bed. Ha ha ha ha! We sift through innumerable accounts. That's 35 pages in real life. Many of them conflicting.

That's nonsense. There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened. — And they said, we're finished. This is over. They know this is not going to work. You gotta get rid of those guys. This is a disaster. — Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Coppola, Robert Evans,

James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others. — I guess that was a real horse's head. — Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes or villains or often somewhere in between. Listen to the greatest true crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts

or wherever you get your podcasts. What if you ask two different people the same set of questions? Even if the questions are the same, our experiences can lead us to drastically different answers. I'm Minnie Driver, and I set out to explore this idea in my podcast, Minnie Questions. Over the years, we've had some incredible guests. People like Courteney Cox, star of the infinitely beloved sitcom Friends, EGOT winner Viola Davis and former Prime Minister of the UK Tony Blair. And now Mini Questions is returning for another season. We've asked an entirely new set

of guests our seven questions including Jane Lynch, Delaney Rowe and Cord Jefferson. Each episode is a new person's story with new lessons, new memories and new connections to show us how we're both similar and unique. Listen to mini questions on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Seven questions, limitless answers. You know it's interesting for Alex, Alex isn't going to like what I'm about to say but I'm going to say it anyway. Go ahead, say it. We really try, I'm going to preface this. An army of normal folks does not care if you're black, right, Asian, Latino, gay, straight,

Christian, Muslim, Jewish, agnostic. We don't care how you vote, how you love, how you look, how you worship. If you're doing something for people that aren't as fortunate as you in your neighborhood, we can celebrate you. And we hope the same about someone else from another place. And from that foundation, maybe culturally, we can convalesce around one really positive thing and start seeing each other in a different light. Okay? Okay, so set that up for our more conservative listeners who often bristle

when they hear some societal issue whose first word is systematic. Systematic systematic Racism systematic Poverty systematic this systematic that You know people want to believe in this amazing country We have and the freedoms we have that if you can just pull yourself up by your brute straps and work hard Everything's gonna be okay But what you're saying to me reeks of systematic issues because if the school has to have money to exist and they have to continue to advance and

promote kids grade by grade regardless of their ability to be able to get that money to exist and they're under resourced and they don't have help at home whether it's the parents fault or not theced and they don't have help at home, whether it's the parents' fault or not, the fact is they don't have help at home. That is a generational, decades-long system that continues to fail our children. So, what I'm gonna say is this. Changes need to be made. I mean everybody has to look at it as this is humanity we're talking about. We are we're human beings we're all in this together. This is one thing that's going to affect everybody if we don't deal

with it and we have to be equal we have to be fair with this thing we have to be honest everybody has to come to the table sit down and have dialogue and talk. We have to talk like you said it to be fair with this thing. We have to be honest, everybody has to come to the table, sit down and have dialogue and talk. We have to talk. Like you said, it's not about politics, it's not about all that other stuff that you said. It's about staying focused on what's most important, which is our youth. Our youth is the core to, you know what I'm saying?

Everybody loves and respects and believe that our youth deserve it. So if we truly believe that, we'll do what needs to be done to make sure that the youth are successful in this country. And that's all I can say about that. And part of that is changing the broken system, is finding a way to change the broken system, which ultimately is what I think you do,

which we'll get to. Spoiler alert, we'll get there. But there's still more to your story. One thing else I want to tell you, I can't pass by it. I was at Manassas High School seven years. Manassas High School is much like the high school you came from. I could give you a big old long list of demographics that would illustrate the poverty and the disenfranchisement, the loss in the neighborhoods that surround Manassas where the goods come

from. The one that is most stark is, and this goes back four years, so it may have changed a little, but if at all, it's probably gotten worse. An 18-year- old male from the neighborhoods that surround Manassas, an 18 year old male is three times more likely to be dead or incarcerated by his 21st birthday than is to have a job. Three times more likely.

And I think it's interesting because in third grade you were told you're gonna be dead or in jail. Before you turn 21. And it feels to me like when I hear your story, and I know that demographic to be true, in some degree this is a structural self-fulfilling prophecy for a lot of kids. So, with me, when people were saying that to me all the time, and when they would send me home, and I'm seeing the guys that I grew up with, and I'm seeing this,

and I'm seeing guys disappear. And that's like, okay, when is it gonna be my turn? I'm seeing guys get killed. I'm seeing guys go to prison. I'm seeing guys go to the juvenile system I had really just believed in that narrative that narrative that was created for me I believed in it because the adults kept saying it and I was hearing so many people say it even in the streets people Saying man you the way you going you're gonna be dead in jail before you 21 and I and I kept hearing that narrative and so I bought into it wholeheartedly and

Um, I hit the streets running. You were being groomed for it. Yeah, so once I dropped out of school, in my 12th grade year, I dropped out of school. It's like, why am I even here if I'm going to be dead? Like, I got to live fast, die young. And so I just started just like, completely committed myself to just being out here in the streets. And when I did that, I seen so much death and destruction around me. It was my older brother who came to me one day and he came to me and he was living the same lifestyle,

living in the same thing, only thing about him. Living fast? Yeah, but at the same time, he still was in an area that had a recreation center and they had some kind of, they had lunch trucks that would come through, they had book mobiles and swim mobiles and things like that. You didn't even have that. We didn't have that.

No, we didn't have that. That couldn't come in our neighborhood. That wouldn't that couldn't even have came in there. And so we didn't have playgrounds and stuff like that. I can remember we used to put crates up. We would not cut the bottom of the crates out and put crates up as basketball rims and stuff. I remember flooding our street to make our street into ice for the kids to play. So we you know, I've done I had a friend of mine call me from 30 years ago. He said, man, I was like, who is this? He's like, I'm gonna tell you. Why you putting those long nails

in that, in that thing? I said, so it'll never come down. I said, how you doing, Keith? Because he asked me, he said, why you putting those long nails in that thing? I said, because every time we make a basketball rim, it falls down. So I went and found some long nails and put some long nails in there so you know so but anyway my my brother he came to my neighborhood and he walked through a whole group of guys on my front porch and he said bro you do understand that the rest of the world don't live like this right I said what do you mean he say bro do you understand that the rest of the world does not live like this? He said five minutes in any direction outside of Detroit in any one of the suburbs. They don't live like this

He said me all these young guys around you they dying young and going to jail young for real, bro There's no resources in your community. There's nothing here. It's just kids dying He said bro, you understand that this not real And I remember my answer like it was yesterday. And my brother just passed away. And I said to him, man, go back to where you from. This is my reality. Go back to where you from. Go back.

And so he asked me to come to his house. He said, bro, can you come to my house, man? Help me move something. So I went over there. And he asked me to move something. And I remember telling him, man, pick it up. Man, what are you doing? Stop standing there. Pick it up.

Are we moving it or not? He's like, look at that picture. He said, that's the picture that we took at your house when we were going Pontiac skating with my friends and your friends. He said, let me point out your friends. He's dead. He's dead. He's dead.

He's dead. Michigan most wanted. Detroit's most wanted. This guy's on America's most wanted. Bro, don't be the next guy on this picture. What do you want to do with your life? What do you see yourself? What do you want to do? And this is my brother. Had no better life than me besides the bookmobile and all that type of stuff. But he saw something that the adults didn't say. He asked me something that no adult had ever asked me. What do I want to do with my life? And my brother asked me that.

And the only thing I could think of was learn how to read. Because that's the only thing I was scared of. I wasn't scared of federal indictments. I wasn't scared to die. I had already succumbed to that. I already believed that it was going to happen. I didn't dream. I just was saying, man, it's going to be like when I get shot.

So when I got shot the first time, I thought nothing of it. It's like, ah, it didn't hurt like they said it was going to hurt. Didn't feel like it. you know what I'm saying? I'm still alive. You get what I'm saying? So he changed my life. He asked me that question. And I went home and said,

only thing that made me scared was a book. That was the only thing I was scared of was a book. So I decided to change my life that day. I went back to school. You said something quickly that about 10 minutes ago that I found really interesting. You said when I went out to eat or something I couldn't even rent a menu and I just say man I'm having what you having. Yeah, that's my go-to. Well let me tell you something.

That coaching for literacy, the whole reason my friend that started it with his son played basketball for the University of Memphis back in the day when William Bedford and Keith Lee and Memphis Tigers were really good back in those days. He was a shooting guard. And so when he got older, he started coaching AAU basketball and his son was on the team and they would go off to Birmingham and New Orleans

to play in AAU tournaments. And one of his players, one of their best players, a guy named Big Frank, anytime they went to eat lunch or dinner at Applebee's or whatever, he would just always order what my friend's son would order. And finally they figured out the reason he did that is he could not read the menu. And for you to have said what you just said and connect that dot, by the way, Big Frank got educated, got able to read, and went and got a degree from LSU playing football and is doing great now.

So I can drop Big Frank's name and all that. But the point is, that was the first time I'd ever heard that story. And then you just said the same thing, which tells me maybe that's not that uncommon. It's not. I mean, I had a guy that I grew up with. He was like, which one of these is my prescription? And I was like, it's the prescription. It's whatever you have in your hand right there.

He's like, which one? And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, man, I can't read. And I was like, man. It's like, everybody. And he's a little bit younger than me. And it's like, man, I can't read. And I was like, man, everybody. He's a little bit younger than me. And it's like, man, everybody that came up in that school, it's like so many people with the same story.

Were you self-conscious? Who me? Oh, yeah, yeah. Still to this day. I can read. I can read. I can read now. But I'm self-conscious.

If you put something in front of me, it's like I turn back into that same young person. I freeze up. You know that's PTSD, right? That's trauma. Yeah, I say that's something I need to get over. It may be, but that didn't change what it is. I'm not going to use it as a crutch. Not me. Look man, my foredaddy shot at me down a hallway, alright? I can hear the crack of a gun and I go right back to that night.

It just is what it is. And that's why I don't go to the gun range. You know, I've been shot. If people be like, let's go to the gun range. I'm like, nah, nah, you haven't been shot yet. You haven't been shot yet. I haven't been shot, but I've been shot at. Now I understand the fear.

Yeah, I was in a situation where I was kicked out of schools in Detroit. I was kicked out of schools on the east side of Detroit, probably even some of the west side schools. I was in a house with some people, and long story short it was a misunderstanding. Somebody who was supposed to be real close to their family shot at me, and it hit the wall and stuff hit me all in the side of my face.

I was like, I wasn't really fazed. But I was thinking back now, like at 13, I should have been terrified of that. And it didn't really faze me. Yeah, for a 13-year-old to not be fazed by that, that that is actually normal and just part of life for a 13-year-old. Yeah. Maybe that says everything anybody needs to hear right there.

Yeah, yeah. We'll be right back. Hey y'all, I'm Maria Fernandez. My podcast, When You're Invisible, is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before.

Season 2 is all about community, organizing, and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks, let's do something about it. I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know we get paid to serve you guys, but like be respectful. We're made out of the same things, bone, body, blood. It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament. Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the MyCultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Canole. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. Leave the Gun, Take the Canole is based on my co-host Mark's best-selling book of the same title. And on this show, we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the godfather's birth from start to finish. This is really the first interview I've done in bed.

We sift through innumerable accounts. I see 35 pages in the real world. Many of them conflicting. That's nonsense. There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Coppola, Robert Evans, James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes or villains, or often somewhere in between. Listen to the greatest true crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. What if you asked two different people the same set of questions? Even if the questions are the same, our experiences can lead us to drastically different answers. I'm Minnie Driver, and I set out to explore this idea in my podcast, Minnie Questions. Over the years, we've had some incredible guests. People like Courtney Cox, star of the infinitely beloved sitcom Friends, EGOT winner Viola Davis and former Prime Minister of the UK, Tony Blair. And now, Mini Questions is returning for another season. We've asked an entirely new set of guests our seven questions including Jane Lynch,

Delaney Rowe and Cord Jefferson. Each episode is a new person's story with new lessons, new memories and new connections to show us how we're both similar and unique. Listen to mini questions on the iHeart radio app, podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Seven questions, limitless answers. So yeah, so I changed my life. I went back to school. I remember being in, I went to get a GED. I paid the school a $40 for the GED thing. And as I was taking the GED course,

the guy came up to me and said, Hey, you can't take the GED thing. And I was taking the GED course, the guy came up to me and said, hey, you can't take the GED thing. And I was like, man, what are you talking about? I was highly upset and offended. He said, you seem intelligent. You're very smart, well-spoken, but you can't read. And I was like, what? I paid my money like everybody else.

And so he said, no, you need to go take a real class. Start from the beginning because you're very intelligent. And so I did that. I said, if I can dedicate my life to being out here in the streets and be a knucklehead 100%, I can dedicate myself to rebirth and doing something positive with my life. So I went and started over again at school and didn't get the GED, but I started over and I got the fundamentals of going back from the kindergarten, basically. You said something really profound.

You said people on the streets will be your family if you don't have one, but that comes at a cost. Oh yeah, oh yeah. What's the perspective behind that quote? So, you know, there's a lot of, when people are all in the same situation, people get comfortable. And they're all in the same situation, people get comfortable. And they're all in the same situation, people get comfortable. And sometimes you commit yourself to the wrong cause.

And there's nobody there to refocus that. There's no guidance. It's the blind leading the blind. And so that's what I meant by that when I was talking about that being in these quote unquote situations with gangs, because I was a former gang member, and being in a gang and a gang whole culture is about being a family. But this family comes with a cost because there's nobody actually leading us in the right direction of positive change.

It's just you're in a gang and it's just, you know, it's us against everybody, not knowing that we all are part of one community. So if you were part of a gang with no positive goal, you're gonna go down the wrong track. And that's the price you'll pay. And it could be your life and it could be your freedom. So, you know, I'm supposed to just move on, but I can't I mean I

Just think that's I think we know it the problem is we see so much of crap on TVs and movies and then the news That I do think we get to sensitized To the dysfunction and trauma that so many kids in our communities and our culture are living under. People in the streets will be your family. First of all, somebody between the age of one and 18 ain't supposed to be needing a family, supposed to have one. Just the mere fact that they're looking for a family says a lot that we need to fix. But then the fact that just to be part of something that you can at least belong to, i.e. the street family, gangs, whatever, but it comes at a cost. A family is supposed to be where you get unconditional love and that unconditional love is what propels

you to be able to be a productive member of society. What you say is so poignant, it comes at a cost. And my version of that is that's conditional love. And conditional love will always end up hurting you. I agree with that. I totally agree with that because I've seen it happen. I've seen situations where people expect you to move a certain way and when you don't move that way,

now everybody's upset with you. And you pay for that. Yeah, you pay for that. So if you tell a guy, I don't agree with that, I And you pay for that. Yeah, you pay for that. So you tell a guy, like, you know what? I don't agree with that. I don't believe in that. I don't think that's something that we should do. I don't feel like that.

You know, that's the way that we should go. And you'll get some heavy pushback. You might get beat up. You might get ostracized. You might get blackballed. You might be told to leave the neighborhood. And whatever, anything can happen. And so with that being said said it goes back to just

having something positive for young people to do you have to have something for people to do because if you don't things will grow. The last thing on this before we move on you know all these people that are going to ride or die with you, your brothers, those folks that got you. You know, it's interesting. Where are they when you die? Where are they when you're in jail? Hey, I don't know. I mean, that's a lot of things. That's a lot of things.

You can say that's your bowling team. That could be your little league team. That could be your basketball team. That could be a lot of stuff. You know, I always tell that's fair. That's a lot of that. I mean, that's that's a chess club. That's a club. You know, that's a fair perspective. People move on. People move on with life. That's anywhere you look anywhere you cut it. People will move on with life. But ain't nobody on your bowling team talking about bowl or die. They ain't saying we're going to ride or die here. So hold on, hold on, hold on. Let's take that back. Let's take that back. Now I

worked security for a long time and I did security for a few events and I actually did security for a bowling event and I literally seen bowling teams of suburbanites going crazy fighting each other so much so that the police department had to come in and they were, police were getting swung on. And these guys were punching police officers. I'm talking punching police officers when they were begging us as security to help them. You gotta understand what I'm saying.

No, I don't. You don't understand that this conditional pay for it, belonging family love comes at a cost and when you're paying that price, rarely are those people in your corner still. No, I wanna say just one thing. So, that could be baseball. You're gonna just turn on a baseball game,

and you see them run out to the mound, everybody's running out there. You can watch hockey, everybody's running out there. So that right there, you're gonna ride with the people that you work out with every day. You're gonna look at those people and view those people as family. If somebody's coming to your house right now and grabs somebody in your house, it's going down. I guarantee you're going to give them everything you got. So it's the same in the neighborhood. You grow up with these guys. You go to the same places of worship with

these guys. You went through fourth, third, second grade with these guys. So it's not like the guys in the neighborhood are not familiar with one another. Some of these guys are, family members are related to each other, you know, from going way back to even before they even came to Detroit. So no, it's not that, you know, I mean you're gonna ride with them because they're from the same neighborhood. I guess I get that. But, but what, where, where the line is drawn at, what I'm speaking of, where the line is drawn at, when they say let's do something illegal, and you say, hey, I'm not doing that. And if you say no, then some people don't understand that.

And that's where the line is, when somebody says let's do something illegal. Just like with those bowlers, when those guys wanted to fight those other bowling league, they were fighting. But when the police came That's when it got out of control when they started beating up police officers They crossed the line and that's when guys should have walked away from that Alex I bet you never thought in a million years in the middle of this interview. We would talk about a fight in a bowl This is how it goes anything can happen with you two knuckleheads

Yeah, oh This is how it goes. Anything can happen with you two knuckleheads. It's time to move on. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I want to start a bowling team that says ride or die on the back of my jersey or whatever they got in there. All right. So that's a lot of perspective of where you come from. And I got to be honest with you, the whole baseball bowling thing has me rethinking some stuff I

thought I had right in my mind. And I love that dude. I mean, I really do appreciate that. And I hope our listeners are thinking about what you're saying because if you want to be real about it, that's true. That is true. All right. So that's the perspective of where you came from.

And now you took these classes to read. But now you're just a guy can read. So what next? So I made myself a promise and a lot of people who know me know that if I say there's something that I'm going to do is something I'm going to do. And I said, well, if I dedicated myself to the streets and dedicated myself to this, this concept that somebody created, this narrative that they created for me, I said, let me reinvent myself and create and dedicate myself

to the new invention of myself. And so I said, I'm going to get a job. I'm never going to do anything else. And then I'm going to make it about uplifting everybody in our community. And so I would catch the bus to work and go to work every single day. All the while I would try and talk to everybody about changing their life and changing course. And I noticed that it was falling on deaf ears because they had already been too old and it already set in and they had already got set in their ways. And so I was like, man, it's falling on deaf ears. Nobody hearing me. And it's like people who go to church, they want to spread the

gospel. I wanted to tell everybody about this new freedom I found in reading and this new joy I found in doing things without looking over my shoulder. You know, I wanted to spread that to everybody. And it was falling on deaf ears because people were still dealing with their own situations in life themselves. They hadn't got to that turning point themselves. They hadn't had a brother like me that came and told me to look at the world and see what it really is. And so I was trying to do that and it was just falling on deaf ears.

Then I said, every time I'm out in the yard shadow boxing and punching at the air and working out, I notice the young people pay attention. I said, that's it right there. You mean in the neighborhood. Yeah, the kids Yeah, I can box too man with like I can you fight that I said, oh, I got him I say this is how I'm gonna get him. I start saying, okay I'm gonna use this as an icebreaker to the bigger conversations if you want me to teach you how to box I'll teach you how to box but you first got to do your homework first and

You got to do your homework and all all the guys that was interested in me when I was exercising and working out, I say, listen, you went to school, help this kid with his homework, then I'll train you for free. And so that's how I started my free program. My program is free, but it's free because I had people, I'll train them as long as you help

this kid with their homework. And now this what? At this point, they say no organization. You just a normal dude. No, this is me. Just a normal dude in the yard deciding I'm gonna try to help these kids if they interested. Because people are still dying. People still can't read or write.

I'm looking at little mini versions of myself. Every day as I'm walking on the bus that gets the bus to work, I'm seeing it every day. I'm walking saying it's still nothing around here. And then when I looked at this, I looked at this newspaper one time and it said only 30% of the people in this neighborhood graduate from high school. I said what happens to the other 70% of the people? What happens to the other 70%? And then I'm looking like you said about the most dangerous neighborhoods in America and I'm seeing my street as the most dangerous neighborhood in America. Then I'm seeing my street as the most dangerous neighborhood in America.

Then I'm seeing neighborhoods around me coming up as number two and three, then skip, then these go to other places, then they come back. Number five and six is still in Detroit. It's like these are the most dangerous streets in America. And I'm like, man, we got to get these kids while they're young, before they go down that path, before they get set in their ways, before some adult puts some nonsense in their head and creates a narrative for them. So no, we're going to stop it before this narrative is put in their head and they start

living out this death wish. And so we're going to change that. And so I did what I needed to do. And that concludes part one of my conversation with Collie Sweeney. And you don't want to miss part two that's now available to listen to. Together guys, we can change this country. But it starts with you. I'll see youanda Diaz.

When You're Invisible is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped me. Season 2 shares stories about community and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks. Let's do something about it. We get paid to serve you, but we're made out of the same things.

It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the testament. Listen to When You're Invisible on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dressing. Dressing. Oh, French dressing. Exactly. Oh, that's good.

I'm AJ Jacobs and my current obsession is puzzles. And that has given birth to my podcast, The Puzzler. Something about Mary Poppins? Exactly. This is fun. You can get your daily puzzle nuggets delivered straight to your ears. Listen to The Puzzler every day

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. This season explores women from the 19th century to now. Women who were murderers and scammers, but also women who were photojournalists, lawyers, writers, and more. This podcast tells more than just the brutal, gory details of horrific acts. I delve into the good, the

bad, the difficult, and all the nuance I can find. Because these are the stories that we need to know, to understand the intersection of society, justice, and the fascinating workings of the human psyche. Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes, or villains, or often somewhere in between. heroes, or villains, or often somewhere in between. Listen to the greatest true crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mark Seale.

And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. This podcast is based on my cohost, Mark Seale's bestselling book of the same title. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Cobola, Robert Evans, James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head.

Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.