An Army of Normal Folks - Rachel Cohen: I Used To Think Volunteering Was A Harmful Distraction (Pt 2)

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

Vox writer Rachel Cohen had disregarded individual action as an unhelpful distraction to the more important systemic change that was needed to solve our problems. And then she had a change of heart & mind. She wrote an extraordinary article about her transformation that’s titled "Why I Changed My Mind About Volunteering" and we dive deep into it with her.Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an Army of Normal Folks, and we continue now with part two of our conversation with Rachel Cohen right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Canole. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. Leave the Gun, Take the Canole is based on my co-host Mark's best-selling book of the

same title. And on this show, we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the godfather's birth from start to finish. This is really the first interview I've done in bed. Ha ha ha ha! We sift through innumerable accounts. I see 35 pages in the real world. Many of them conflicting. That's nonsense. There were 60 pages.

And try to get to the truth of what really happened. And they said, we're finished. This is over. They know this stuff's gonna work. You gotta get rid of those guys. This is a disaster. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Coppola, Robert Evans, James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head.

Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Canole on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Snakes, zombies, sharks, heights, speaking in public. get your podcasts. And while you might think a great white shark is scary, what's really terrifying and even deadly is distracted driving. Eyes Forward, Don't Drive Distracted. Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council. Why would you do that to me when I thought we were friends? We are friends.

Los Angeles, 2021. A friendly neighbor appears out of nowhere and promises to make all my dreams come true. Let's not forget that David Blum was a professional con artist, so you didn't stand a chance. But my dreams soon turned into a nightmare. Blum generally targeted people with money. And I was not alone. He took over a hundred people for over $15 million. One of the victims was his own grandmother

I was married to David for almost ten years. It was insane I was barely functioning and I just had this realization that he will not stop until he kills me Getting a con artists to pay for their crimes isn't easy I'm Caroline DeMore. Listen as I take down my scammer on Once Upon a Con on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey y'all, I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast When You're Invisible is my love letter to the working-class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society,

but who have never been interviewed before. Season two is all about community, organizing, and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks, let's do something about it. I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know we get paid to serve you guys, but like, be respectful. We're made out of the same things,

bone, body, blood. It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson, and I'm also the testament. Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the MyCultura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bob Pitman, Chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from

the Frontiers of Marketing. I'm having conversations with some interesting folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like chairman and CEO of Health Beauty, Terang Amin. The way I approach risk is constantly try things

and actually make it okay to fail. I'm sitting down with legendary singer, songwriter and philanthropist, Jule. I wanted a way to do something that I loved for the rest of my life. We're also hearing how leaders brought their businesses out of unprecedented times, like Stephane Bancel, CEO of Moderna.

It becomes a human decision to decide to throw by the window your business strategy and to do what you think is the right thing for the world. Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math, and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Undatabased thought coming from me to you. Great.

Love to hear what you think about it. pervasive generational construct regarding daily interaction of giving and philanthropy verse grassroots big motivation policy policy seeking efforts that you describe I'm those are my words but that's about right right that's about what you're saying there's those two verses right I think that participation, membership, and weekly engagement in houses of worship in our country, synagogues, churches, mosques, all of them, it's all down. It's all down. Has also had a destructive effect on community and engagement. And, you know, I go to church with Democrats and Republicans. I go to church with progressives and conservatives. I go to church with people of different races.

with progressives and conservatives. I go to church with people of different races. I do today. And you know, we see each other differently than those who do not commune in any way, shape or form. And then when we separate ourselves into this large, you know, this is the only way we're going to affect change. And you're not interacting on a daily basis with people who aren't necessarily just like you. It breaks down community. And then when community breaks down, so does the desire for philanthropy. That is, I have absolutely no basis in that.

It's that that's just my feel. I would love to hear your perspective on that after doing the work that you did researching all this stuff. I mean, I totally agree. I think... That's weird from a person your age. To agree. To agree. People think a lot of people your age, including one of my own children, think I'm an outdated fuddy-duddy.

Well, I think, I mean, what I think is challenging is I was like, it would be easier if there had been some sort of, you know, alternative institution, community institution that provided this thing that, you know, faith-based institutions did. But... Well, I'm not just saying faith-based. I'm saying the...that's one of them, but I'm also saying this idea that we got to convalesce around this one movement and then use big organizations and government to go change it all. Well, that breaks down community.

That too. Oh, I see. I mean, do you feel that, but you're saying you don't feel like that's happened with the people at your church. Certainly I do. Oh, you do. That's why there's not many people at church now as there was 20 years ago. Because they convalesce around these big... You see what I'm saying? They end up worshiping something different. Yeah. I see. Yeah. I think... I mean, I do feel like people are just siloing and stereotyping each other and not interacting in ways that

would, we were talking about this earlier, that would allow you to realize, oh, we're not different. That's what I'm saying. That's the community I think we're missing in large part. And figuring out how to build institutions that might, I mean, so, you know, I'm, my fans and I are talking about having kids and I, we're like, okay, when we have kids, we'll join, you know, I mean, he's not Jewish, but we're going to join a synagogue. And I'm, part of what is, what I'm excited about is, oh, that will be a place that will

make service things much more easy for me, even though I've since found other organizations. But I am suddenly excited about having a place that just makes all of that organizing easier. But there's just a lot of people who...but I also understand why people aren't joining things like that, and we need... Well, I do too. Yeah. I don't want you to misunderstand me. I'm not saying we need to bring about churches and synagogues and make every join to save the world.

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, I wondered if in the research you did, you found that as we continue to polarize because we don't have these things to convalesce around together, and as we continue to lean on bigger and bigger organizations to fix it, that one of the side, one of maybe the unintended side consequences is community breaks down. I mean, I think that community, I think that it is breaking down. I think the only thing that I would say I feel like people would push back on is the,

at least as I sort of have observed it, a lot of the people that are, what they're putting faith in is not necessarily another organization. Most of them have totally given up faith in the political parties, you know, and they, but there's sort of like faith in the possibility of a movement of people, like sort of this idea of a grassroots movement that will ultimately, you know, lead to the politics and, and, and point. And I think that that just doesn't actually exist in the way that they wanted to,

and so then they don't find it. But I don't think it's that everyone has pinned their hopes on the Sierra Club or something like that per se. I think it's more like hoping that if we galvanize enough people to be upset enough with the status quo, we'll be able to like ultimately push for the change that we need that will make us feel better. But I also don't think that even getting certain change that they want is what's gonna lead to like the

well-being because I think that's more connected. Do you want to know what gives me hope? What? That a 30-something year old kid woke up and gave blood. All we need's millions of those. We do. That changes everything. There comes your community. Because I don't care if you're left of center in Jewish and I'm right of center in Christian. I am so happy and proud that you're giving blood

and if I'm laying dead in a puddle one day and your blood saves my life, I'm pretty happy and proud that you're giving blood. And if I'm laying dead in a puddle one day and your blood saves my life, I'm pretty good with you. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally. But that's the power of an army of normal folks. That's the power of service. That's the power of philanthropy.

It breaks down all these barriers to me. And I just want to know if that's what you found and you feel. I mean, I definitely feel that. I don't know if I think that I think I have found that a lot of people want are feeling frustrated or feeling dissatisfied with their wondering if they could be doing more if they if there is a better way to be making change. I think a lot of people like I think that is really a serious thing where a lot of people are like, what is the best way that I can make change? And that has led over time, I think, to a decline in service.

And I just think part of what I am hoping, and I think your podcast does a lot to do, is helping people realize like, actually, you can make so much change, even the big change that you want to make. podcast does a lot to do is helping people realize, actually, you can make so much change, even the big change that you want to make. I think that people do want to see structural change, too. Maybe you call it top down. I think for a lot of people, they don't see it as top down per se, because they

think it's coming from the bottom up, ultimately. But I do think that that it was a mistake to conclude that this local service, you know, helping your neighbor stuff is not deeply connected to all of that big change that people say they want, at least. And by the way, you asked, so I'll turn to it now. Yeah. So many in my generation. I'll turn to it now. So many in my generation decided that government was discouraged of the world. Well that's also not true. We need a government. We need services. We need those things. So I think the answer as always is a combination of

the two extremes. Obviously we need government to provide services and defense and all kinds of stuff, but it's like a pendulum. You know, this pendulum you're talking about swings to all this individual service is just a bunch of junk and then the other pendulum goes all the way here and we should dismantle the whole government. Government's the problem with everything. And the truth is somewhere in the middle is really the sweet spot and we can find that sweet spot together if we can simply have a community where we can convalesce around something other than the extreme differences.

And that's why your article is so important to me is because it's not somebody on the right preaching, it's somebody on the left sharing. And it's a much different perspective that I think is really, really important. We'll be right back. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Canoli. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture.

Leave the Gun, Take the Canoli is based on my co-host Mark's best-selling book of the same title. And on this show, we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the Godfather's birth from start to finish. This is really the first interview I've done in bed. Ha ha ha ha! We sift through innumerable accounts. I see 35 pages in the real world. Many of them conflicting.

That's nonsense. There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened. And they said, we're finished, this is over. The only stop gonna work is to get rid of those guys. This is a disaster. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews

with Francis Ford Coppola, Robert Evans, James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Snakes, zombies, sharks, heights, speaking in public, the list of fears is endless. cast. a great white shark is scary. What's really terrifying and even deadly is distracted driving. Eyes Forward. Don't drive distracted. Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council. Why would you do that to me when I thought we were friends? We are friends. Los Angeles, 2021.

A friendly neighbor appears out of nowhere and promises to make all my dreams come true. Let's not forget that David Blum was a professional con artist, so you didn't stand a chance. But my dreams soon turned into a nightmare. Blum generally targeted people with money. And I was not alone. He took over a hundred people for over $15 million. One of the victims was his own grandmother. I was married to David for almost 10 years. It was insane.

I was barely functioning. And I just had this realization that he will not stop until he kills me. Getting a con artist to pay for their crimes isn't easy. I'm Caroline DeMore. Listen as I take down my scammer on Once Upon a Con on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey y'all, I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast, When You're Invisible, is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of

people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season 2 is all about community, organizing, and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks, let's do something about it. I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account, or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed.

I know we get paid to serve you guys, but like be respectful. We're made out of the same things. Bone, body, blood. It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament. Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the MyCultura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bob Pitman, Chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing.

I'm having conversations with some interesting folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Tarang Amin. The way I approach risk is constantly try things and actually make it okay to fail. I'm sitting down with legendary singer, songwriter and philanthropist, Jule. I wanted a way to do something that I loved for the rest of my life. We're also hearing how leaders brought their businesses out of unprecedented times, like Stéphane Bancel, CEO of Moderna.

He becomes a human decision to decide to throw by the window your business strategy and to do what you think is the right thing for the world. Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to math and magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

cast. I think there are a lot of, I mean not everyone, but I think there are a lot of people who maybe are on this pendulum over here who had dismissed it, who like me had just never really thought, oh, why haven't I donated blood? Or like, they haven't been reached by people who, or you know, I think there's more all of us can do to sort of say, hey, why don't you join me in coming to, like donating? Here's a wish list the shelter needs, why don't we like split it?

And I think there is, I think a lot of people, it would be great if everyone stepped up on their own and I sort of went through, I would say, a more unique journey in that way, but I feel like there are a lot of, there are millions of people who want to get to that, I think exactly what you're saying, the sort of middle ground, like, okay,

maybe there is a better path and I think all those people are very normal, you know? Yeah, so. So I am curious. I know you had to have gotten responses from people that are typically right of center and left of center and everything else. I'm just, I'm really curious as to what the response was

and what kind of feedback you got. Besides the ones that's like, oh, you're an idiot, I get those too. I'm talking about actually the ones that even made you think more maybe. Totally. I mean, I have really appreciated. I definitely heard from some more conservative readers too who were like, I went in not expecting to like this, but it actually was not too bad. And I said, thank you.

Or like, oh, I hate your news organization, but this was good, stuff like that. So I was like, thank you. But isn't that in and of itself? Yes. Isn't that telling? Yes. That how quickly we can come eye to eye.

Yeah. One article. I expected to hate what you had to say, and hey, I just wanted to let you know I really appreciate what you had to say. One article, that's walls crumbling. Totally. One reader emailed me to express, you know, express her, you know, connection to the article.

And she actually put an organization on my radar that I hadn't heard about in DC. And now I've been volunteering with them every month since August. They're called We Are Family. They deliver groceries to low income seniors in my neighborhood that I didn't even know existed. So that was really awesome, and I'm such a fan of that group now. And I think something that happened a month after the essay came out,

there was this report released. It was this $3 million effort by a bunch of kind of big wigs in philanthropy. It had the Aspen Institute, the Salvation Army. Some of the big foundations and philanthropists wanted to commission studies over the last couple years to get a clear state of what giving and volunteering looks like in America.

I wrote about this a month later. It wasn't an essay, just sort of a write-up. Here's what the Generosity Commission, that's what it was called, found. It was a little bit of a frustrating document because they were like, more research is needed, we need to fund more studies. But one of the things that they found, which I found agitating was, and I realize this isn't directly responding to your question, so I'll get back to that, but a lot of money in total to nonprofits is actually going up,

but the number of donors is going down. So you have really rich people... We know that. ...continuing to give a lot of money. And so then there was this question of so why does that matter you know if these organizations are getting funding is there reason to be freaking out and part of the answer is well not every organization is getting funding the total nonprofit sector might but there is obviously especially smaller community-based organizations are not

getting these million dollar grants that some of the bigger groups are getting. And then, but then also this point that actually giving is, carries benefits to the giver that we are losing in this society if people don't realize that. And one of the more interesting parts of the Generosity Commission's work that I found was they have been identifying these links that make sense but have not really been spelled out before about if you donate to a charity, you're 10 points more likely to vote to then also get involved in an organization. Like all of these different pro-social activities are actually really interconnected and it's like donating blood.

Well, they didn't say that. But you know, I think people who donate blood are more likely to then probably donate money and things like that. And community engagement is contagious. Yes. It absolutely is. And I think we just have to figure out how to help people... You grow an army of normal folks.

Grow an army of normal folks, exactly. I'm serious. I know it sounds self-promoting and maybe even gauche to say it like that. But I'm telling you, to me, just what happens if there's 3 million more of you that have an awakening this year and 3 million more the next year? That's a lot of people.

How hard is it to understand the person on the sidewalk freezing if you hand them a pair of socks you enrich their life that day? And I think also to your point, it is really bad for our country, for our democracy. I increasingly feel this very strongly if people don't have, don't feel that they themselves can be part of making the world better. Like, having that sense of belief is so important to mental health. Like, we don't talk about that enough. Everyone's talking about the mental health crisis, but I think making people feel a sense of agency is so integral to that.

And I grew up being told, you can be whatever you want. Obviously, that's not totally true. And I feel like today, I feel sad when I hear some of the messages that ninth graders are hearing from politicians about everything being broken and how sort of every single thing is falling apart. And there are real challenges for sure, but I also worry about people just losing sense of hope and agency and optimism because I think, A, I think they still have it. Like, we should help them see that they still have it.

And B, I think it just makes people feel terrible. And that is also not... If everyone feels terrible, that's going to have terrible effects too. With regard to our country, a very basic fundamental is it's hard to love something you don't have a stake in. Therefore by encouraging people to have a stake in their community, thus their city, thus their state, thus their country, they will have more love for this republic of ours. And the further you withdraw from it, the less you're gonna care for it. And if we take care of our republic, it can take care of us.

But if we abuse it, where does that leave us one day? How do you think... Like, what do you think about when...in the question of how to make people feel more of a sense of responsibility for things? Because I think right now, a lot of people don't feel that as much because they feel like what they do doesn't matter. Yeah I'm supposed to be the one asking the questions. You think about this a lot so I'm just curious. I think at the at the very basic root level this may sound goofy but I think it needs to be cool to give again. And I think

people like you are the answer to that because you talked about you weren't lonely and you had community. All right. Well, how many of that community were doing a thing? No, like very little. Okay. Now, how many in that community see you or are inspired by you? I think some people were, so that was cool. It's contagious. I will add this, the Generosity Commission, and I hadn't really thought about this, but it does kind of make sense.

So part of what they did in this report that came out was also recommendations for how to increase, like they definitely took a position that donating to nonprofits is a good thing. Now in my essay I did, you know, talk with one scholar who was sort of saying, we should stop prioritizing 501c3s as like the utmost good, like caring for your family is just as good. So there's a debate in the world of philanthropy over like what should count, etc. But at least for this Generosity Commission they took the stance that no, we should figure out a way to make people feel like donating and

volunteering with nonprofits is something to do. They see it as, you know, integral to American identity and history, etc., and just like our civil society is different from Europe or other places. And so one of the recommendations they had was to invest more in like spokespeople and marketing and telling the story about why it matters and getting out some of this information. And I think there have been campaigns in the past around this stuff, but I don't, but they were sort of saying like, you know, you could imagine Hollywood

or actor, football players or whatever. I don't know. That's my problem with spokesperson and all that stuff. It just reads like another commercial. Yeah. And we're over commercialized. I over-commercialized. I think storytelling, and again, I mean this though, I think storytelling about...it's about relatability, okay? I mean, whoever's listening to us right now that's driving their car down the road with their 2.3 kids on the back of the expedition going on their one vacation

Working hard to pay bills and keep their kids clothes and all of the things we have going on or I think about One guy that's an over-the-road truck driver that listens to us all the time and he's constantly emailing us ideas in fact, we we named something after him and I I truck driver that listens to us all the time and he's constantly emailing us ideas. In fact, we named something after him. And I think about this cross section of people, they're not going to relate to Tom Brady telling everybody to get your dog spayed neutered or whatever. Okay? But they will relate to another person just like them who has a story about they had a passion for a particular thing, they saw an opportunity in their community and they filled it.

And then they've had this amazing success helping people in their community And telling that story about a very normal average relatable person And and the hopefully the the message behind that is if they can do it you can too They're just average people. They're not part of that big Huge grassroots massive effort trying to make they're just making small change in their community. Yeah, but if one can affect five That means three million can affect 15 million. That means 15 million can affect 85 million and That to me is what grassroots bottom-up service and philanthropy looks like and if you'll

think about the community that could grow from that and to your world, the social change that could come from that, you ask how. I think that's how. I genuinely think that's how. Yeah, I think you're right because I think I agree if I saw like I Don't know Taylor Swift Talk about this like it wouldn't do anything, but I think what people

What I think people in my you know stage of life etc want to see is someone who is know, stage of life, etc. want to see is someone who is juggling all the same things that they're juggling, who are weighing all the same questions about well is this worth it? Is it effective? Like are they gonna waste my money? Is it is it actually useful? And then just like showing like yes you can, here's how you of course you can, this is how you, these are the ways you can do it and this is the benefit, this is the positive impacts you'll have, and I think you're right that,

I mean, maybe those big foundations will fund storytelling from average people. I mean, that could help. That's our hope. Yeah. We'll be right back. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King.

This is Leave the Gun, Take the Canole. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. Leave the Gun, Take the Canole is based on my co-host Mark's best-selling book of the same title. And on this show, we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the godfather's birth from start to finish. This is really the first interview I've done in bed. Ha ha ha ha! We sift through innumerable accounts. I see 35 pages in the real world.

Many of them conflicting. That's nonsense. There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened. And they said, we're finished, this is over. They know this is not gonna work. You gotta get rid of those guys, this is a disaster. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli

features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Coppola, Robert Evans, James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Canole on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why would you do that to me when I thought we were friends?

We are friends. Los Angeles 2021. A friendly neighbor appears out of nowhere and promises to make all my dreams come true. Let's not forget that David Bloom was a professional con artist, so you didn't stand a chance. But my dreams soon turned into a nightmare. Bloom generally targeted people with money. And I was not alone.

He took over a hundred people for over $15 million. One of the victims was his own grandmother. I was married to David for almost 10 years. It was insane. I was barely functioning. And I just had this realization that he will not stop until he kills me. Getting a con artist to pay for their crimes isn't easy. Charge David Blum! I'm Caroline DeMore. Listen as I take down my scammer on Once Upon a Con on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Snakes, zombies, sharks, heights. Speaking in public, the list of fears is endless. But while you're clutching your blanket in the dark, wondering if that sound in the hall was actually a footstep, the real danger is in your hand, when you're behind the wheel. And while you might think a great white shark is scary, what's really terrifying and even deadly

is distracted driving. Eyes forward, don't drive distracted. Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council. Hey y'all, I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast, When You're Invisible, is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people

who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season two is all about community, organizing, and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks, let's do something about it. I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account

or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't have more than $2,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know we get paid to serve you guys but like be respectful. We're made out of the same things. Bone, body, blood. It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament. Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the MyCultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes,

host of Divine Intervention. This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell-bent effort to sabotage a war. J. Edgar Hoover was furious somebody violated the FBI and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees. The FBI went around to all their neighbors and said to them, do you think these people are good Americans?

It's got heists, tragedy, a trial of the century, and the god damn best love story you've ever heard. I picked up the phone and my thought was, this is the most important phone call I'll ever make in my life. I couldn't believe it. I mean, Brendan, it was divine intervention. Listen to Divine Intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. How do you feel? How do you feel? What's it make you feel like? I don't think people understand enough that when you, it's a very human part of our DNA that when we actually do something for another person and we see the results of our work in their happiness, or maybe they're just having a better day today, or maybe them being able to do something a little better for their kids,

that that creates a sense of euphoria in us that nothing else does. that creates a sense of euphoria in us that nothing else does. And you talk about the blood given, I get it. But what's it feel like when you drop off a box of groceries to underserved seniors? It feels good. It feels like I am living my life according to the values that I want to be living. And when you're not living, even if it... You realize that... I think just taking steps

and realizing that, oh, I can prioritize this and I can help make the world better. I mean, it sounds corny, but it is really true that you just, it feels good to feel like you're spending this short time on earth not wasting scrolling in your phone, but doing something for other people. And I think one of the awakening insights that I had from the whole article process was, you know, so many of the ideas of self care that we have in our society are around, like buying stuff or getting a beauty treatment

or going to a fitness class. A nicer car. You know, a nicer car. And it was pretty agitating to realize, oh, self-care, at least as, you know, we talk about it, what you hear on TikTok, what you see online is so rarely phrased as serving other people because it's all focused on doing things for yourself. And it just was sort of, oh, well, A, you actually are doing something for yourself when you serve other people.

And you actually probably feel better if you get out of your own head and go do something for someone else. And just kind of, for me, being in motion is helpful. And not that, I mean, there's lots of service, that's not emotion, but yeah. I was, it was not what I, it's not why I started all this stuff, but it was something

I was very pleased to discover. And once I sort of figured that out, and then I thought, why are people, you know, I feel like people aren't talking with this that much. Is it because it feels like something we should not, you know, you should only focus on the selfless parts of service and that it could mess up the, you know, altruism. But obviously, the person who's getting your help doesn't care if you feel, like, they don't want you to feel bad. They don't want to, it really, it just is good to remember, I would say I feel good doing it, I feel good prioritizing

it, I feel good trying to build a life that aligns with the values that I say I have, you know. I think there's a distinction. If your life is enriched and you feel mentally and emotionally and spiritually more healthy as a result of engaging in your community, there's nothing wrong with that as long as that's not the motive. As long as the motive is serving someone that is not as blessed as you, if the byproduct of the right motivation, the right work is you also become enriched in your life Why is a shared communal experience not a beautiful thing?

You have a really interesting insight in the article Rachel where you say billionaires can talk about their gifts and like what it does for them But we're not allowed to talk about what it does for us. I read this book and it it was the author had interviewed a lot of rich billionaires about why they give and they all were like, oh, I just, you know, they were all so open like, oh, I just, you know, I love the way it makes me feel. I love helping people. It just makes me feel great.

And I was like, huh? Yeah. Huh? It's like they're not hiding that aspect of it. There's nothing wrong with it So why do we yeah if you're motivated because it checks a box at work on your philanthropic giving or you Appreciate the backslaps or it makes you feel good because everybody thinks you're the nice guy in town fine That's that's not it

but if you're motivated by the simple edification of someone who's not as blessed as you and oh, by the way, you get to feel good, that's a beautiful thing. And a billionaire giving away a whole bunch of money because they actually are invested in or care about an organization and want to see people thrive from their riches and they happen to feel good about it, I've got no problem with that. As long as they're not out there tweeting on Facebook or Twitter, whatever that stuff is,

ex-tiktokkin or whatever, look at me. If it's not about look at me, then. But one thing I guess I would maybe push back just a tiny bit on is I think for a lot of people like voting, like donating blood, and this was actually, I talk about this in the essay, this concept from the Torah called v'anis, v'anis en nishma, which is kind of like do and then you'll understand. I think if you are sort of thinking about service,

just starting, even if you don't necessarily have that motivation of, oh, I wanna do this for someone who is less, you know, who is less advantaged, or I think just getting people to start and then Probably their motivations and the way they think about it will change over time and So I wouldn't that's a fair point. I was there is an evolution to it There was an I had an evolution even just in my time and I think just building a habit and a practice around getting involved and I think for me what happened was

I joined something that ended up being sort of like the most accessible thing to join at the time. And then through that, I was able to actually find something I wanted to be involved with more. And I think just the barrier of getting started can be so high that I don't wanna add another. And make sure your motivation is also perfect to start. That's fair. Just get started. Just get started. And let the

good things happen. And I think they'll discover these things and... But the point is why or if you do or whatever you do feel more healthy. You do feel more healthy and you are helping somebody even even if, you know, even if your motivation isn't my motivation, our outcomes in the world we're building is the same. Do you view other people and organizations differently now than you would have before you took down this path? That's a good question. You mean the ones I'm any organization or?

Well, just, if your initial thoughts and your education had you arrive at organizational change, I just wonder, and maybe this is an unfair question, but I can't help but wonder if maybe You look down your nose at some people Previously that maybe now you have a little more respect for And that may be a unfair personal question, but maybe on a grander you understand. Yeah, totally I'm wondering if it just changes perspective.

Yes. I mean, my perspective was very changed. I definitely, I think the biggest way that it was changed was just, you know, I think that there was, you know, even if it was subconscious, I did. And I don't know exactly know exactly when, it's just sometime in the last 10, 15 years, there was just, I started to see people's certain activities being done as like, not... Wasteful.

Yeah, just sort of like, you're doing, like not effectual, just spinning the wheels and not moving the needle. And I just, I feel I don't think that anymore. Now I think how great that those people were carving out time to do all this important work that needs to be done and we need so many more people doing it. I kind of love that. I kind of love that because that evolution and thought

I kind of love that because that evolution and thought and that step will also help people who think folks who live in DC and left their center are crazy and they're awful and they're mean and they're terrible and they're everything else. They're not, I swear. No, they're not. They're not. My kids live there.

No, they're not. My kids live there. No, they're not. And just because you may look at something differently from a political standpoint or believe in a different deity or whatever does not necessarily mean you're evil or my enemy. And when I hear that evolution and thought, I'm hopeful that there can be evolution and thought from some other folks from the other side that you can get out of the pendulum extremes and find consensus in the middle. And I think service and growing community can bring us to that point. I feel really good in this conversation. I agree. I think finding...

And given that there are fewer and fewer institutions where people of different backgrounds come together to get... to interact with each other. It does feel like service offers a really good place where that could be when everything else is sort of fading. But I don't know sort of who or how exactly that gets convened and maybe the answer is we each need to help convene it. But it did feel when I was starting this, I was like, I just feel like it should be easier in the age of all this technology that we have, all these cell phone apps and whatever.

And maybe AI will make it even easier. You know, AI wasn't really out when I started this, but I just was like sort of, it felt like it should have been easier than it was now Maybe you would say actually working hard as part of the journey and you need to like Struggle a little bit to find the stuff But I don't think people had to work as hard a couple decades ago to do it So they were plugged into organizations that was part of their DNA and those organizations and people being plugged into them or fewer and fewer Yeah, we got to find other avenues.

We're trying to bring those avenues to light. And people like you, going through this process and writing this article is just one in a million different ways that hopefully we can bring people to this level of service and change our community. Everybody, the article is why I changed my mind about volunteering. My generation was taught to change the system. That lesson came at a cost. Rachel Cohen is a focus of hope for me. I am just so encouraged by your story, the article, the work that you did, where you are now. If people, where do they go find this thing?

Just go to, is it on Vox? Yeah, it's on Vox. You can just, if you type in my name and volunteering, it should come up in Google. What's next? You're gonna do any more follow-up on this kind of stuff? You should. You can be part of the solution with your PIN. I definitely... So one thing that you might find interesting, so I got content, one of the people who reached out to me was this woman Marcie who works for a national organization

called Cogenerate and they focus on intergenerational connections. And I met with Marcie, it was really cool learning about all the different stuff that her group does and that actually led to an article I published last month about intergenerational home sharing which is like we have this affordable housing crisis. There are 54 million spare bedrooms right now in homes of owner-occupied homes. Something like 20 million empty nesters in the US live in homes with two spare bedrooms because you know their kids have gone and so there's sort of these organizations that are coming up trying to get help you know students or younger people rent

these spare bedrooms in exchange for like helping the older seniors with the tours or things around their house sort of helping them bond. It was so interesting. The article is kind of about this movement to do that and you know challenges but also some of the really cool benefits. Anyway that is sort of a windy way to say that I love hearing from... so if any of your listeners have really you know, things that they think should be on my radar, feel free to reach out. I know they also obviously probably pitch your show, but I am definitely interested in continuing to cover this and I think the

questions about social connection and, you know, how we depolarize and, you know, stay, like, see each other for the people that we are, even as people are so on their screens and in their bubbles is something that I definitely want to keep writing about, so. I love that. We'll be right back. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Canole.

The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. Leave the Gun, Take the Canole is based on my co-host Mark's best-selling book of the same title. And on this show, we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the godfather's birth from start to finish. This is really the first interview I've done in bed. Ha ha ha ha!

We sift through innumerable accounts. I see 35 pages in there. Many of them conflicting. That's nonsense. There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened. And they said, we're finished, this is over. The movie's not gonna work. You gotta get, we're finished, this is over. The only thing that's gonna work is to get rid of those guys.

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Hey y'all, I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast, When You're Invisible, is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season two is all about community, organizing, and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks.

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Alex do you have anything else? One of the things that y'all talked about was Um, one of the things that y'all talked about was generational differences. And I think unfortunately the generational reality for our generation economically is quite different than the generations prior to us. And I know in talking with my friends, a lot of people are hustling so hard. They don't, they run out of energy and time, um, cause they have like three jobs and can't volunteer. Um, and so how do you sit with, Rachel, the systemic issues that also prevent us from doing this

individual interpersonal work? Yeah, such a good question. And this was something I spoke with, like scholars of Lender, we brought this up too. When you are juggling multiple jobs and you have fewer, less discretionary time, there's a reason that seniors in their retirement can do more volunteering. I think one of the ways that I've been thinking about at Kibisul is, and that some of the people I talked to

helped me think about was we have this kind of leave it to beaver image of what volunteering has to be. Has to be. That's a really good point. We do. And actually we have this vision of who volunteers as what Leave It to Beaver looks like. And that is so wrong. It's so backwards. It's not true. If you've listened to the guest on our show, you will find out very few are leave-it-to-bevers. But go ahead, I'm sorry, but what you're saying is such a good

point. I absolutely, and I think, so I think if you think about it, oh how am I supposed to sign up for, you know, a standing commitment every week at 7 p.m. or or three days. Honestly, when I was looking at volunteering opportunities in DC, it was striking to me how many of them were like 9 to 12 in the weekdays. I was like, how could anyone do that? You know, how could I?

I don't understand who this is for exactly. It must be for people who are retired or not working. But I think that recognizing that there's so many ways to build volunteering into a life that doesn't have to be so stressful and can maybe start off being like, all right, in my like, I have a month, in the next month, I can dedicate these hours on this day and to something and then sort of go from there. And I think this is getting back to the like just do it just find something rather than I think it can be really overwhelming to think of it as another

like standing commitment and what will happen is I think is if you really like it you'll find ways to build it in it'll become easier because but there's no question that and there are a lot of remote volunteering opportunities that have come up through COVID, so there might be stuff you can do that doesn't involve traveling to another place because that can be difficult, especially where you live. But I think, and then I guess the other thing is

thinking about the people in your direct community. So maybe you can watch your neighbors like kids while they're out, or maybe you can like, you know, do some sort of service for your neighbor, like make them some food. And then that, and like just realizing like, oh, all of that counts. And all of these things about service

in your local vicinity that, cause it can feel, I'm curious if you have additional thoughts on this, but just it can feel like we put it on this pedestal that can feel really like you have to jump pretty high to meet and- There's a man in our neighborhood whose name I don't know, and when he walks his dog he tracts a trash can and

he picks up every piece of litter in the curb on all three streets. He is not part of anything but he is serving his community. I love that guy. That's something he can do while he's doing something else. I just believe if you open your eyes You will find need everywhere and you do not need somebody to give you permission to go do it you just do it You know when I was like, yeah If you look up nonprofits, you'll get a lot of like shelters have wish lists online from Amazon So you could just kind of like send them some things that they need. They're like little things that I think people who even don't have much discretionary time

or money could do. You could carry socks or like all those things that I was like, oh, is that important? Now I think actually, yeah, it's really important. Giving blood. Giving blood. They take it on Saturdays, they take it on Sundays, they take it at night.

But yeah, everybody's working, they're you know building their lives. I understand especially in the younger generations you know how, when, where. But I think to your point, which was a really, really good one that I had not thought about, you know, anything. What you, the words you just used is, it all counts. It all counts. Just any little thing, it all counts. And again, to our whole riff, if you have an army of normal folks all doing little bitty things,

it all counts and all added up can change society. Hello. I have a question for Rachel Orr. Have you ever gotten any backlash or any negative encounters for the experience of trying to get people to get into service or volunteering? I haven't, but I also don't feel like I've pressured anyone too hard. Yeah, maybe I should pressure people a little harder. I don't know, but thus far, not yet. But you know what, you know what that pressure is?

People are watching. People are watching. Yeah. Yeah. The pressure comes from wow, look what Rachel's doing. You don't have to, you don't have to overtly pressure people. Just your action will pressure those in your sphere. You know, one thing I will say, And I don't mean pressure in an unhealthy way. No, I think there's a positive level of peer pressure too. I agree with you. I mean, one thing I will say is I do know someone, he's a friend,

and he told me that he had read my essay, was inspired by it, that he wanted to share on his Instagram some causes he cared about that he supported, but he was like, but I don't want to because I don't want people to think I'm like trying to just get compliments or that I'm fishing for people to think I'm a good person. And I was like... But I think I... And I know where that's coming from, but I also think it is infectious, as you say, and it does add a little level of people being like, hmm, maybe I should do it. Like if Josh is doing it... and so there is this strange level.

I was like, maybe, I understand you feel that way, but which do you think is more important? You know, you worrying people might think you're being annoying or you getting more people to donate to this cause that you care about. And see, that is such a generational difference. People my generation just wouldn't give a crap about that. I feel like you guys know what I mean, you know? But they wouldn't. They really wouldn't. But I think that's social media and exposure.

Everyone's really just hyper focused on how they're being perceived for every single thing that they post. So people are worried if they post, oh, you should donate to this. Then people are like, wow, you're trying to look so. But almost like your point, just get started. Yeah. And like maybe some people will, but maybe some people will do it as a result of your post. So which do you, which matters more, you know? I think, I think just do. Yeah. Just do. Just do.

One last thing I'll share. Kimmins Wilson is a Memphian. He's the founder of Holiday Ends. Memphian, that's cool. Memphian. Yeah. So born and raised here. Started with nothing. He was a contractor. He built small houses and ended up founding Holiday Inns here, built it. And now every hotel you stay in, that's a chain. Think Hyatt, Marriott, Ham Hampton Inn all of them were born from Holiday Inn. Well think about it there was back back in the 50s there was either you know well there's either the not the Ritz there was either something like the plaza. His story was the family was visiting DC and yeah and it's it's

like it just take DC you either stay at the Willard or you stay at like a motel They say at the Bates Motel. Those were the two options a roadside motel or The Willard that was it. He was like I'm gonna fix there was no something. Well, and he said Back. Well, remember the Ford right for the average man a car for well We need to have something for the average family to stay at and he started the Holiday Inn, which is now what is the Marriott and all of that stuff, right? I had dinner, I had lunch with him not long before he passed. And I was at an FBO he owned and his LearJet was parked outside the windows.

And he looked at me and he said, you know what, you need to be successful. And I said, no, sir, I'd love to know. And he said, work half the day. And I'm like, all right, being here with a Learjet, I'm sitting in his airport and he says, work out. He said, yeah, Bill, it doesn't matter if you work the first 12 hours or the second 12 hours, just work half the day.

That is an old school mentality, I realize. But in terms of how you balance your work life with your philanthropic endeavors and everything, work doesn't necessarily mean where you make your paycheck. Work also means working with your family, working in your community. It all counts. It all counts. Rachel Cohen, thanks for coming to Memphis and sharing the whole background behind this

one article. Thank you for bringing me to Memphis. It's so cool to be here. You're so welcome. Thanks for being here. Thanks everybody. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming.

And thank you for joining us this week. If Rachel Cohen has inspired you in general or better yet to take action, please let me know. I'd love to hear about it. You can write me anytime at Bill at normal folks dot us and I swear guys I will respond. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and on social, subscribe to the podcast, rate and review it. Join the army at normalfolks.us. Consider becoming a premium member there. Any and all of these things that will help us grow an army of normal folks. The more listeners, the more members, the more subscribers, the more impact we can have. I'm Bill Courtney. Until next time, do what you can.

My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention. This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild-haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell-bent effort to sabotage a war. J. Edgar Hoover was furious. He was out of his mind and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees. Listen to Divine Intervention on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bob Pipman, Chairman and CEO of iHeart Media. I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing.

I'm having conversations with some folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like Chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Tarang Amin. Legendary singer-songwriter and philanthropist, Jewel. Being a rock star is very fun, but helping people is way more fun. And Damian Maldonado, CEO of American Financing. I figured out the formula is you have to work hard, then that's magic. Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics,

the math, and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to Math and Magic on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. This podcast is based on my co-host Mark Seale's

best-selling book of the same title. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Cobola, Robert Evans, James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Why would you do that to me? Los Angeles, 2021. A friendly neighbor appears out of nowhere and promises to make all my dreams come true. Let's not forget that David Blum was a professional con artist, so you didn't stand a chance. But my dreams soon turned into a nightmare. I'm Caroline DeMore. Listen as I take down my scammer on Once Upon a Con on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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