An Army of Normal Folks - Robert Hill: Friends After 5pm (Pt 1)

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

Robert was the beneficiary of older black men who assigned him to a church, placed him in a job, bought him $2,200 worth of professional clothing, and mentored him. They challenged him to do the same for the next generation and he's doing just that through his initiative called Friends After 5, which hosts happy hours to fix the sad reality that not enough black and white Americans are friends after the work day is done. By doing so, Robert believes that we can grow the middle class of both. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I got my first check. It was $748.13. I said, I'm never finished. Oh, back then. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I went to TJ Tony's house and I brought him the whole check because when I was younger, he had taken me to this place called Imperial Men's Wear. It was this high end clothing store on Union Avenue. And he bought me three suits. Bought me a pair of Johnston Murphy shoes, a bottle of Aramis cologne, and three shirts and three neckties. TJ spent $2,200 that day. Never forgot it, as long as I live.

And I went by and brought him the whole check because I had never had anybody ever do anything for me. And so I tried to give it back to him. And he said, silly Negro, he was our favorite student. This is such an insult. It was our job to train you. It was our job to mold you into this intelligent, upper black middle class man. It's your job now to pass it on to somebody else.

Welcome to an Army of Normal, folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal folks, I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm an entrepreneur and I've been a football coach at inner city Memphis and the last part, somehow it led to an Oscar for the film about our team. It's called Undefeated. Y'all, I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using big words that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox, but rather by an army of normal folks, us, just you and me, deciding, hey, I can help.

That's what Robert Hill, the voice we just heard has done. Robert's passing on the support and membership that TJ Tony gave him to the rising generation of young black men, just as he told him to. I cannot wait for you to meet Robert and his endeavor called Friends After Five, right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Welcome to season nine of Next Question with me, Katie Couric. It is 2024 and we're going to get through this together, folks.

My campaign promise to all of you, here on Next Question, it's going to be a good time the whole time, we hope. I have some big news to share with you on our season premiere featuring Kris Jenner, who's got some words of wisdom for me on being a good grandmother, or in her case, a good lovey. You know, you start thinking

of what you want your grandmother name to be, like are they gonna call me grandma, like I called my grandmother? So I got to choose my name, which is now Lovey. I'll also be joined by Hillary Clinton, Renee Flemming, Liz Cheney, to name a few. So come on in and take a break from the incessant negativity

for a weekly dose of fascinating conversations. Some of them, I promise, will actually put you in a good mood. I loved it. Your energy and joy. I'm squeezing every minute I can for you out of this season of Next Question. Last question, I promise, you have to go, I have to go, but it's been so fun and I can't wait for you to hear it. Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

I never thought I'd take my three young kids to Sicily to solve a century-old mystery. But that's what I'm doing in my new podcast, The Sicilian Inheritance. Join us as we travel thousands of miles on the beautiful and crazy island of Sicily, as I trace my roots back through a mystery for the ages and untangle clues within my family's origin story, which is morphed like a game of telephone through the generations. Was our family matriarch killed in a land deal gone wrong? Or was it by the Sicilian mafia? A lover's quarrel? Or was she, as my father believed, a witch? Listen to The Sicilian Inheritance on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Ariel. I moved to the U.S. at 19. I spoke no English and I struggled finding job opportunities. Everything I have, I owe to the Adult Literacy Center and getting my high school diploma at age 22. It was an honor helping you achieve your greatness.

Now you're helping others achieve theirs. It inspires me. When you graduate, they graduate. Find free and supportive adult education centers near you at finishyourdiploma.org. Brought to you by Dollar General Literacy Foundation and the Ad Council. Robert Hill, my brother, what's up? Glad to be here.

Thank you for the cordial invite. It'll be real good to see you. Man, I'm glad to have you with me. When David Lenore, what was the office he held? Shelby County Trustee. Shelby County trustee. Shelby County trustee. When David and I have known each other, actually since high school,

kind of knew of each other in high school. He was really good football player, played at Alabama. Actually was friends with his brother more, but certainly known David forever. David and I had kids that played sports his brother more, but certainly known David forever. David and I had kids that played sports and went to school together. And then David coached with me at Manassas one year, believe it or not.

I remember that. And so David and I became buddies and then I became aware of you through David because you worked with David in his administration, his office. But I'd really never, I knew who you were, we'd met, but I really didn't know who you were or what you were about. And then there was this gap of five, six years where David's gone on about his life.

You've gone on about yours and I got about mine. And recently I was invited to speak at a Rotary Club lunch, which I did, and you were there. And before lunch, said hello and everything, cordials as usual, and then after the speech, when there's a little time for Q&A, you looked up at a room full of about 120 people and thanked me for my comments and then turned to the room as a whole and said,

I would just like to know why I'm the only white guy to the room as a whole and said, I would just like to know why I'm the only white guy in the room. Which is interesting, because you're a black dude. Chocolate and black, I am that. But the, yeah, as my players at Manassas would say, you are black. I'm black. Right.

I didn't, before I coached at Manassas, I didn't even know the difference in light skin to black skin. I just thought African-American dude, black dude and white dude. But now I understand there's a whole shade thing that goes on. But anyway, you're black. And when you said that, everybody kind of in the room looked at you a little bit and I chuckled because it did not surprise me that you would say something like that. But then I had to parlay on your comments, which was I said to the rest of the room,

you know guys, you really need to think about what Robert just said is more than just a joke to make you maybe think. The city of Memphis is 65% black, 2 3rds black. And the room in the Rotary Club was, if there were 100 people there, is 65% black, two thirds black. And the room in the Rotary Club was, if there were 100 people there, it was 1% black. And how is it that we expect to actually have any true meaningful interaction and action

on one of the things that divide us most in this country, which is race, when we gather together and we all look alike. Ultimately, that leads to thought and conversations and actions that are in a vacuum because we don't know one another well enough to consider one another's perspectives well enough to actually grow.

And so we're gonna get to what Robert Hill is trying to do about that, because I think the work you're doing has enormous potential to fix what is one of our largest problems. And we're gonna get to it in teaser here, it's called Friends After Five. And we're gonna get to that and let you go into it.

But first, unfortunately, the truth is, a guy like you walks a fine line. And I want my listeners to hear this because I learned this also. First, while I was at Manassas, but even more after Manassas and up to this point, engaging with people of other races who have the temerity to drop preconceived notions

at the door and have an open mind and listen. What I have found out is a lot of black dudes do that somewhat at their own social peril, because they can be called sellouts, they can be called Uncle Toms, from one side, and then from the other side, oftentimes they're looked at with an air of, what's this guy want?

You know, what's he in this for? What's his angle here? It's a tough place to be as a black person trying to do this kind angle here? It's a tough place to be as a black person trying to do this kind of work. It's a tough place to be as a white person, but specifically since you're our guest and you are black, I think it's important for our audience to just stop for a second and think.

When a black man reaches across racial lines, black folks are wondering what he's up to and white folks are wondering what he's running up to and they're doing it from two very different perspectives and it's hard work to get people to understand the authenticity of your efforts and that they come from your heart and they also come from a pragmatic view that we got to fix this mess and so your effort into Friends After Five come with probably a little bit of personal heartburn along the way, but I know you believe the

effort's worth it. So before we get to that, so we can understand where you come from and why you're doing the work you are doing and that this is not you with an angle, why don't you tell us about how Robert Hill grew up? Oh man, that's a... I've had a very blessed and fortunate life, Bill, and thank you for having me on the show today. I think there's this misconceived notion. We operate in these segregated silos for so long.

And oftentimes I tell people of color, I say, I'm not African American. I mean, we've transcended so many definitions of who and what we are. Yes, my skin tone is black, but when I wake up in the morning, I don't look at myself as a black man. I look at myself as Robert Hill, as a man that God created to do something great, have something wonderful with their life. And so my background is not very uncommon for most people. You mean like an army of normal people?

Yeah, I'm just normal. Yeah, well tell me about it. Hard working. Well, I grew up in Memphis. Grew up in a working class community called Alca Ball off Alca Road. Went to Alca school, Corrigy High School. We walked to Corrigy and it was bust Overton High School. My mother, you know, we had three of us, three children, a father who decided to advance his own career.

We got, he had a wife and three small children. What'd your dad mom do? My mom was a school teacher, my dad was a preacher. Got it. So they divorced in 1981. I was probably seven or eight years of age and I'm the baby in the family. My mother died in 2017.

And so we grew up in a working class community of mostly the black middle classes teaching, preaching, and working at the post office. So everyone in our neighborhood either was a school teacher or you had some civil service worker that worked in the household. And it was a solid working middle classclass neighborhood, middle-class community. And so my mother made just enough for us not to qualify for financial aid, trying to go to college, but not enough to send us. So I went to work when I was 13 years of age.

I believe Corrigy High School, catch the 13 lot of the old bus. It would drop me off at Brooks Road and Elvis Presley was a restaurant back then called Pancake Man Restaurant. It was at the corner next door to Colman Taylor Transmissions. It was owned by a guy named Mr. Choi, an Asian fellow. And I would bus tables at night, wash dishes, and then I would get off around 10 o'clock and go home, do my homework, and go back to school. We all had to pitch in to help out. My mother's health was starting to fail.

And so as I became an adult, young adult in high school, I started busing tables at the Peabody Hotel, Duck's Restaurant. And- Ducks, I was wondering, I remember that you said that. It was ducks? Is ducks there anymore? I don't think ducks gone.

That was a traditional Americano restaurant. John Vogler, who was the food and beverage director, opened it up, sometimes laugh, and I have an opportunity to talk with Ron Bells, who owns it now. And those were some very classic days of quality. And so I was bussing tables there. My brother, who's five years older than me,

had just went into Army, because he went to the Army so he could go for the GI Bill money, be able to go to college. And then I was sitting there saying, I said, I guess when he get out, I'll go into Army so I can get GI Bill money so I could go to school. That particular night at the Peabody Hotel working in Duck's Restaurant,

there was two black guys sitting at the table. and this shy, skinny kid with an afro walks over to the table and I said, excuse me, you don't know my name, but you probably know my father. In the 70s, my dad was deputy director of Memphis Urban League and a prominent pastor in the city. And so I told him my father's name and they both started to laugh. They said, oh, we know your father well. And the two guys that were there was Bishop William H. Gray of the CME Church and Dr. Benjamin L. Hooks

of the NAACP. Would you, for those who aren't from Memphis, when you say Dr. Benjamin Hooks in these parts, you say a mouthful. Just let everybody know a little bit. Benjamin Hooks in these parts, you say a mouthful. Just let everybody know a little bit about Benjamin Hooks so they understand who's sitting at this table. Well, Dr. Hooks was the first black judge to ever serve on a bench in Shelby County

and during the 60s when we still had segregation. And then of course, he was appointed the first commissioner by President Nixon for the FCC commission, prominent Republican, prominent black conservative. And when he finished as FCC commissioner, he was tapped to be the national director for the NAACP. He passed- There's also involved King at one time, wasn't it?

Oh yes, oh yes. They ran on something called the volunteer ticket back in 1962. It was Benjamin L. Hooks, Shep Wilburn, Henry Clay Button, who would later become a CME Bishop. One other guy, the ticket is still there at the Pink Palace Museum, the volunteer ticket. And so there was this group of middle-class black conservatives

who wanted to have this concept of self-sufficiency but equal rights, equal opportunities, equal access to capital. So Benjamin Hooks, sitting at this table, who laughed when you said, I think you know my father, he was on the leading edge of this one side fiscal family conservative notions, but a very, what would have been at that time, a very liberal notion toward equal rights and freedom for the black folks

to become middle class and millionaires. He was fighting for both sides. He was walking that line. He walked it. And I think now equal opportunity is here. There's no excuse for it. And I do think that once you have this propaganda that plays over and over and over in certain communities, it leaves you with this mindset to where you think that is the truth.

Instead of finding out on your own, and you have to get out of your comfort zones in order to grow. My life has been, you know, Friends at the Five is a reflection on relationships I've had with people who don't look like me over the last 30 years. And a lot of it was because of what Bishop Graves and Benjamin Hooks pushed me to do So take us to that day. You're in the Peabody. Oh, yeah

that you say that and Well take it from there. Well, so Bishop Graves he wrote his number down He says I want you to come see me tomorrow to see me publishing house So I was I got off work that night. That morning I went over and met him at the CME Publishing House, which at that time was in South Memphis on South Parkway. It was the world headquarters for the CME Church. And he said, look, I'm looking for a driver.

Can you drive? I said, yeah, I can drive. So he hired me to be his driver. And he was over in Tennessee and Arkansas, 275 churches at the time, the first Episcopal district. And so here I was driving him. And so one Saturday he asked, he said, I'm going to need you to drive me to Little Rock, Arkansas. And so as a young, skinny kid from the Afro driving Bishop Graves, one of the first places I went was to the Governor's Mansion in Little Rock, Arkansas. Governor Clinton was, President Clinton was the

governor at the time. And here I am a young skinny kid trying to, you know, figure out what is really going on. So he exposed me to politics, he exposed me to the importance of voting and then getting behind candidates that we could approve and believe in. So, of course, Bill Clinton became president. And it was my introduction then to politics with Governor Don Sanchez and so many others. But as a result, I wasn't going to anyone's church. I was young.

I didn't have an interest in it. So he says, look, you can't drive me and don't go to anyone's church. So none of this really works. None of it works period without this relationship with God. So he assigned me to Mount Olive Cathedral to see him. He assigned you. He assigned me like I wanted to see him.

He preaches. So I didn't think much about it. He said, when you're not driving me on the wanted to see him. He preaches. So I didn't think much about it. He said, well, you're not driving me on the weekends. You have to go to church. So I said, okay. And now a few messages from our generous sponsors. But first, I hope you'll follow us on all of your favorite social media channels where

we can share more powerful content from the Army. We're at Army of Normal Folks on every channel. We'll be right back. I never thought I'd take my three young kids to Sicily to solve a century-old mystery, but that's what I'm doing in my new podcast, The Sicilian Inheritance. Join us as we travel thousands of miles on the beautiful and crazy island of Sicily, as I trace my roots back through a mystery for the ages and untangle clues within my family's origin story which is morphed like a game of telephone through the generations. Was our family matriarch killed in a land deal gone wrong? Or was it by the Sicilian mafia? A lover's quarrel? Or was she, as my father believed, a witch?

Listen to The Sicilian Inheritance on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Katie- Welcome to season nine of Next Question with me, Katie Couric. It is 2024, and we're going to get through this together, folks. My campaign promise to all of you here on Next Question is going to be a good time the whole time, we hope. I have some big news to share with you in our season premiere featuring Kris Jenner, who's got some words of wisdom for me on being a good grandmother or in her case, a good lovey. You know, you start thinking of what you want your

grandmother name to be. Like, are they gonna call me grandma like I called my grandmother? So I got to choose my name, which is now Levy. I'll also be joined by Hillary Clinton, Renee Flemming, Liz Cheney, to name a few. So come on in and take a break from the incessant negativity for a weekly dose of fascinating conversations. Some of them, I promise, will actually put you in a good mood.

I loved it. Your energy and joy. I'm squeezing every minute I can for you out of this season of Next Question. Last question, I promise. You have to go, I have to go. But it's been so fun. And I can't wait for you to hear it. Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello. From Wonder Media Network, I'm Jenny Kaplan, host of Womanica, a daily podcast that

introduces you to the fascinating lives of women history has forgotten. This month, we're bringing you the stories of disappearing acts. There's the 17th century fraudster who convinced men she was a German princess. The 1950s folk singer who literally drove off into the sunset and was never heard from again. The First Nations activist whose kidnapping and murder ignited decades of discourse about indigenous women's disappearances. And the young daughter of a Russian Tsar whose legendary escape led to even more intrigue

and speculation. These stories make us consider what it means to disappear and why a woman might even want to make herself scarce. Listen to what Manica on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, I went down to Mount Olive Cathedral and back then this was one of the most prominent churches we had in the city of Memphis. It was mostly made up of the Black bourgeoisie. It was well-educated lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, school teachers, you name it. It was either at Mount Olive Cathedral or Metropolitan at that time for blacks.

And so, here this little skinny kid trying to blend in with all this opera music, which was boring, I thought. And it was very elitist back then. And so, this older black man walks up to me, who I realized later was in his mid-80s. I thought he was in his early 60s. He was the retired principal of Jeta High School, TJ Tony. And he walks up to me, shakes my hand like a bull.

He was strong as a ox. He says, look, I've already checked with Bishop Grage. You're not supposed to be driving him this weekend. We got to me at his prayer breakfast Saturday at eight o'clock. And we want you here. So my best friend Antonio that grew up since fourth grade, he and I had went down to Studio G on Beale Street. We were down there gangster walking that Friday night.

You were doing what? Gangster walking. That was the LL Coogee. We would put the Kangos on. We would have our Cebegos on, our duck head pants and our IZART shirts. We would start with Luke Skywalker, LL Cool J, you name it. We would start gangsta walking around the building as a dance. And we would slip Mad Dog 2020.

I preferred the orange. Not Orange Jubilee? I had the orange. Mad Dog 2020. I prefer it to orange. Not Orange Jubilee? I had the orange, Mad Dog 2020. My buddy is just drinking, I always liked the orange. I don't know why I liked any of it, because it made me sick as hell. It did, but back then we could get it for $2. We would slip it in KFC cups and bring it into the parties.

Yeah, of course you were. And so here it is, one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning. Got home, it dropped and told to go off, he lived a couple streets away from me. And walked past my mother's bedroom, abbreviated, and tried to hold my composure, and fell over in the bed. I've had those nights. Oh yeah, I was one of them,

and just by the grace of God, he covered us. And so around 7, 15 that morning, my mother's phone was ringing. She pulled the cord down the hall, the long cord, and she says, hey, there's a TJ Tony here. He wants to talk to you. So I go to the phone and he says, look, I need you to get your up.

I want you to get up right now. Don't you dare be late. Because a black man is only as good as his word. You better make sure you be here by eight o'clock. says, look, I need you to get your up. I want you to get up right now. Don't you dare be late. Because a black man is only as good as his word. You better make sure you be here by eight o'clock. He slams the phone down. So I jump up and I put my clothes on, brush my teeth, slap my feet in my sabagos,

jump in my Volkswagen Beetle Bug, had a little 73 Volkswagen Beetle Bug. And I'm racing to Mount Olive Cathedral downtown. I get in there at 7.59 a.m. He's sitting there eating sausage and grits, well-groomed, smell like Hermes Cologne, had his Alpha Phi Alpha ring on. I mean, he was groomed up.

He says, you're almost late. I said, but I'm not, Mr. Toner. He said, remember, a Negro is only as good as his word. You don't ever be late once you give somebody your word. Your word is your bond. And that taught me, your word is your bond. Being a man of your word can open up so many doors that really develop your credit profile,

more so than the actual credit profile. So I stayed for the event. It was very boring, all that opera singing and elitist. Yeah, 20-year-old kid don't care nothing about that. Well, I was 18. 18-year-old kid really don't care nothing about that. I didn't care anything about that at all. So I got home around 11 o'clock.

My mother was crying. And I said, mother, what's wrong? She says, well, you haven't heard. I said, heard what? She said, whatever rested in Tonyo. The guy you were with the night before, what's wrong? She says, well, you haven't heard. I said, heard what? She said, whatever rested Antonio. The guy you were with the night before, your best friend. My best friend, yeah. I said, what do you mean arrested Antonio?

I dropped him off last night at two o'clock with me. And most of the time Antonio would have been with me. He would have went with me to the men's prayer breakfast. But I assumed because we got in so late and then I was running late and I just knew he would be at home asleep so I didn't wake him up. And Bill that has haunted me for many, many years.

I never even talked about the story until after I started Friends After Five. It's still a very hard conversation for me to talk about. So that particular morning around nine o'clock, some of our other friends, he banned and Michael went and picked Antonio up. They said they were going to get their check from church's chicken at third and fairway. So Antonio gets in the back seat of the car and didn't know, you know, nothing unusual.

And so he banned winning in, he said his check was short of $100, got into a physical altercation, verbal altercation with the manager. Pushed the manager, assaulted the manager, took the money out to cash register, jumped in the car. He thought he was owed a check.

And so he didn't go there and rob the place. He thought he was owed more on the check. I see. And he was going to get his. He was going to get his. And so Antonio didn't know what was going on. He was sitting in the back seat. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time on the wrong ride.

The manager calls the police and they pull over a car with three young black boys the summer of 1989, my high school senior year. And as a result of that, they gave him, charged him with accessory to armed robbery, assault and robbery, and gave him 11 months and 29 days. And I often wonder what that would have really been like had I would have got up off my ass early enough and wouldn't got him. Could it changed his life. And back then as a convicted

felon, you didn't have opportunities that you see now. And he really caught hell trying to get on his feet. And many of us pitched in throughout the years to try to help him. He's been in ill health, had a massive stroke, but had, I would not have gotten a call from TJ Tony that morning. I would have been the driver. It would have called me. I would have picked them up and I would have been a totally different trajectory of my life. From that, those older black men mentioned me at Mount Olive Cathedral.

But the point is that the small things in life end up the biggest things. Had you not been a Docs and said hello to Mr. Graves, who assigned you the church, who introduced you this man, who got your ass up off the, out of the bed to come to church to be a man of your word. Yep. Your life trajectory would have been completely different. Completely different.

And I've had a wonderful life considering all things. The older black man taught me how to save money, showed me how to open up an IRA when I was 19 years of age. When I finished college, I was gonna teach school, because that's what most blacks did, taught school. And this older black man walks up to me at church and he says, look, have you been placed? I said, what do you mean placed?

All of our college graduates trying to make sure they have jobs. I said, well, I'm waiting for my NT to come back national teacher exam to see can I teach in the Memphis city schools at the time. He says, no, I want you to meet me at 555 South 3rd Street, the main post office in the morning at eight o'clock. He said no, you got assigned to church now you're getting assigned to job. That's how they row, that's how they used to row and he was the HNIC, head negro in charge at the post office. Hold it. Did you hear what this man just said?

I can't say that. All right, so I want our listeners, hang on now. Let me just. I have heard that phrase in the South my entire life, but folks from, look like me, don't never say nothing like that. But people need to understand that is really not, everybody needs to drop their sensibilities at the door.

That is honestly, in the black community, that is not a derogatory term. That is like, that is the precursor of what people now say is the man. Well, Mayor Coleman Young used to have it on his nameplate on his desk when he was the mayor of Detroit. He did not Yes, he did Ameri Coleman young HNIC. He had HNIC on his nameplate my dad worked for He had a big ashtray sit on the desk I remember there's a little kid going to see him and he would smoke three packs of cigarettes a day. No kidding. Yeah, he'd keep an ashtray on his desk and smoke them.

And so Howard Betts told me to get down and I did at eight o'clock that morning. He made me pick up a 50-pound mail bag, put it on my shoulder and bring it across the room and drop it. He said, you hired? And that mail bag was giving me hell because back then I was a size 29 in the waist and I had to weigh but 115 pounds. It weighed almost as much as me back then. I had to be on a 52,000 dollar a year job because the post office was making a thousand dollars a week back then before overtime. That's a job.

It was a job. We'll be right back. I never thought I'd take my three young kids to Sicily to solve a century-old mystery, but that's what I'm doing in my new podcast, The Sicilian Inheritance. Join us as we travel thousands of miles on the beautiful and crazy island of Sicily. As I trace my roots back through a mystery for the ages and untangle clues within my family's origin story, which is morphed like a game of telephone through the generations. Was our family matriarch killed in a land deal gone wrong? Or was it by the Sicilian mafia?

A lover's quarrel? Or was she, as my father believed, a witch? Listen to The Sicilian Inheritance on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to season nine of Next Question with me, Katie Hurick. It is 2024, and we're going to get through this together, folks. My campaign promise to all of you here on Next Question is going to be a good time the whole time, we hope. I have some big news to share with you on our season premiere featuring Kris Jenner,

who's got some words of wisdom for me on being a good grandmother or in her case, a good lovey. You know, you start thinking of what you want your grandmother name to be. me on being a good grandmother, or in her case, a good lovey. You know, you start thinking of what you want your grandmother name to be, like are they going to call me Grandma, like I called my grandmother. So I got to choose my name, which is now Lovey. I'll also be joined by Hillary Clinton, Renee Flemming,

Liz Cheney, to name a few. So come on in and take a break from the incessant negativity for a weekly dose of fascinating conversations. Some of them, I promise, will actually put you in a good mood. I loved it. Your energy and joy. I'm squeezing every minute I can for you

out of this season of Next Question. Last question, I promise. You have to go, I have to go. But it's been so fun. And I can't wait for you to hear it. Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric, on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, from Wonder Media Network, I'm Jenny Kaplan, host of Womanica,

a daily podcast that introduces you to the fascinating lives of women history has forgotten. This month, we're bringing you the stories of disappearing acts. There's the 17th century fraudster who convinced men she was a German princess. The 1950s folk singer who literally drove off into the sunset and was never heard from again. The First Nations activist whose kidnapping and murder ignited decades of discourse about indigenous women's disappearances. And the young daughter of a Russian czar whose legendary escape led to even more intrigue and speculation.

These stories make us consider what it means to disappear and why a woman might even want to make herself scarce. Listen to Omanika on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You said something to me, I don't know, when we were having lunch three, four weeks ago, talking about doing this interview. You said to me that something that dawned on me that I didn't think about, which is back then, black folks wanted to work in education or civil servant jobs.

That was kinda- Yeah, they had to have a pension. You're talking about the pension, right. And so you were looking for post office, banks, maybe. No, not banks. We didn't retract to that. It was mostly post office, police officers, firemen, school teachers, the defense depot.

So where you get largely good hourly pay, probably part of a union and a pension. That was the track. And a lot of it came out of segregation because unions were never designed for blacks to begin with. And so as baby boomers started to have children and their children, these white children were able to go to school and college,

the unions started to lose enrollment. So you had blacks working side by side with whites in the 50s and 60s and 70s. A UAW that worked on part of the union, it wouldn't allow blacks to part of the union. So once they started allowing them in around 70, 71, because they needed the union dues. Yeah, I was gonna say,

don't think that was some social construct. It was about money. It was about money. They needed black money. They needed black money, and they realized that was some social construct. It was about money. They needed black money. They needed black money and they realized that black money was green. And so that's how blacks became unionized. But my mother had uncles and aunts

that worked for the railroad in the 40s and 50s in Chicago that did not. They didn't get the same representation the white workers did. And by the time he retired at 70, he just got to 70 where they make them had to pay the railroad pension when they weren't even part of the pension. And he had, uh, he started working for him back in 19th third and now, okay.

So you're working at the post office and as people need to hear you, because of this construct, the reason I interrupted this to get to this is I want people to understand, you'd arrived. This is like. Well, shit shit, I mean, I'm gonna go. Yeah, I got my job at the post office, I'm making a thousand dollars a week,

I'm gonna get a pension, and this man, this man didn't tell you not to go into teaching, but he was doing you a favor getting you this job. And I did have to sell dope to do it. You see most young black kids were selling dope back then. You know, that was the boom. In Memphis, you know, you had the cocaine cowboys and the cartel going on in this city.

So if you're making a thousand dollars a week and could do it lawfully and legally, I mean, you was in high cotton. And so as a young 22 year old, I remember I got my first check. It was $748 and 13 cents. I never forget it. Oh, back then, oh yeah, oh yeah.

I went to TJ Tony's house. He lived over there on Foster Avenue, Glenview Heights. And I brought him the whole check. Because when I was younger, he had taken me to this place called Imperial Men's Wear, which was this high-end clothing store on Union Avenue where all the preachers bought all their canali suits and stuff. And he bought me three suits, a black suit, a navy blue suit, and a gray suit.

He bought me a pair of Johnston Murphy shoes, a pair of bottle, a bottle of Erumus Cologne, and three shirts and three neckties. He said, you can't drive the bishop any kind of way representing us. Those suits lasted me almost 15 years. I couldn't wear them out. They were so well made. TJ spent $2,200 that day. Never forgot it, as long as I live.

And I went by and brought him the whole check because my mother, born in 1933 during the Great Depression, we didn't have it. you didn't know we didn't have it. We didn't ever beg for it. If you caught begging for something or asking for something that you hadn't worked for, you got beat, you got good beaten. They believed in whipping you back then. So we didn't give her any trouble.

So I had never had anybody ever do anything for me. And so I tried to give it back to him. to ever do anything for me. And so I tried to give it back to him. And he said, this is a very candid conversation, he said, silly Negro, silly Negro, you was our favorite student. This is such an insult. It made me feel empty.

I said, what do you mean, Mr. Tawney? He said, son, we knew who you were. I've been knowing your dad for 30 years. When Bishop Gray's called and said that we had another one to train, we knew exactly who you were. It was our job to train you. It was our job to mold you into this intelligent,

upper black middle class man. Just with my money that I spent with patron tuition at school, it was all of our money. I would go down to the finance room on Sunday morning and say, look, we need to collect some money. Give me your Johnny Walker money. Give me your cool cigarette money. Give me your girlfriend money.

Give me the Johnny Walker, cool cigarette, and girlfriend money. That's right. Because back then you had so many black men that were working these high paying jobs. Hell, the church lot looked like a Cadillac dealership and a Lincoln dealership. And they had fine cars, they had fine homes, good homes.

And I tell people all the time, all black folks are from Missouri, the show me steak. You can talk it, but you gotta walk it like you talk it. And they taught me so much. And so when I tried to give them the money back, he expressed to me, he says, it's your job now to pass it on to somebody else. And I left there thinking about this.

This was in 1993. They taught me how to save money. They taught me the importance of keeping your credit, your bills paid. I would get ready to go buy a Mustang when I started working at the post office and they wouldn't let me buy it. Made me buy a little small Toyota truck,

paid $8,000 for a brand new at Coventry Park Toyota back in 1992. Said a black man should always have a pickup truck because you don't never know what kind of work you gotta do on the side. Cut grass or whatever you gotta do to hustle, take care of your family, even while working a job. So I remember I was trying to buy a house.

My mother wouldn't let me have girlfriends at the house anymore. So I wanted to live in the neighborhood because it was still a prominent black middle class neighborhood. House came up for sale, $61,000 house back in 1993. And I went to every bank in Memphis, the black bank, we used to be tri-state bank. They turned me down.

Teacher credit union turned me down. Everybody turned me down. And so this older black lady runs out from tri-state bank. She says, baby, go out to Bank of Bartlett and Bartlett, Tennessee. So I did. And I went out there and this lady was typing up the loan information. And I was sitting at her desk frustrated. And this little short guy walking down the hall real fast with jet black hair, saw me sitting at the desk distraught.

He turns around and comes back. He says, sir, you're right. I said, no, not really. Said I've been to at least nine different banks. I'm trying to figure out why I can't buy a $61,000 house. Am I too young? Am I too black? Am I too young and black?

And so he picks up the Manila photo off of Vivian's desk. She's still at the bank. And he looks through the file. Excellent credit. He says, how much money you make? I said, I work at the post office I grossed a thousand dollars a week he says uh-huh he said do you have any money saved I said I got $10,000 saved and I got about $1,800 in IRA I went to

town Prudential and I had about $1,500 of double-e savings bonds used to buy double-e savings bonds and trick your mind I think you'd get more because of the face value pay of the face value. You'd pay half the face value. And he signed the Manila envelope with his pen. His name was Harold Byrd, the president of Bank of Barlick. He said, let him have it.

That was the first house I bought. 23 years old, the house was $386 a month because we knew, we were trained, that if you can't put a house into a black person's portfolio, you cannot move into middle class. So I couldn't buy clothes, and we used to call it clothes and hoes.

We didn't invest in clothes and hoes. We invested in houses and saving, sacrifice, and family. Family life was very important to us. And so somewhere we have forgotten some of the traditional values that have propelled us into middle class and now we see the shrinking middle class. And a lot of it has to do with a liberal mindset,

this liberal society, say it's a free fall. It's not, somebody's gonna pay for it. And the middle class right now is paying 50% of his income to do so. So when I established Friends at the Five, I had a reflective opportunity to say, you know, semi-retired, too young to retire, what would this really look like

if more blacks had the same opportunities I've had? And that concludes part one of my conversation with Robert Hill, and you don't want to miss part two that's now available to listen to as we're about to dive into Friends After Five. Together guys, we can change this country, but it's going to start with you. I'll see you in part two. My whole life I've been told this one story about my family, about how my great-great-grandmother was killed by the mafia back in Sicily. I was never sure if it was true, so I decided to find out.

And even though my uncle Jimmy told me I'd only be making the vendetta worse, I'm going to Sicily anyway. Come to Italy with me to solve this hundred-year-old murder mystery. Listen to The Sicilian Inheritance on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to season nine of Next Question with me, Katie Couric. I've got some big news to share with you in our season premiere featuring the one and only Kris Jenner. Oh my gosh, congratulations.

That is very, very exciting. And that's just the beginning. We'll also be joined by podcast hosts Jay Shetty, Hillary Clinton, Renee Flemming, Liz Cheney and many more. So come on in, take a break from the incessant negativity for a weekly dose of fascinating conversations. Some of them, I promise, will actually put you in a good mood. Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, from Wonder Media Network, I'm Jenny Kaplan, host of Womanica, a daily podcast that introduces you to the fascinating lives of women history has forgotten. We've always been intrigued by stories of disappearances. Whether it's a fraudster from the 17th century who kept evading the authorities or a novelist who taunted the Nazis and faked her own death, we all want to know. What happened next? To find out, listen to Wamanica on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.