An Army of Normal Folks - Sonia Agron: Volunteering at Ground Zero Made Her Sick, But She Doesn’t Regret It (Pt 2)

Episode Date: September 5, 2023

When the World Trade Center was struck on 9/11, Sonia promised her husband, an NYPD officer who responded to the attack, that she wouldn’t go to the site to help. But she couldn’t keep that promise and volunteered as a recovery worker at Ground Zero on overnight shifts. In addition to grieving their losses, the Agrons soon began to deal with various illnesses brought on by exposure to Ground Zero’s toxic environment. In spite of this, Sonia has continued volunteering by leading tours at the 9/11 Tribute Museum and 9/11 Memorial. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, it's Bill Courtney again with an Army of Normal Folks. Let's continue with part two of our conversation with Sonia Agron right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. You decide you've got to do something and this is where I find you amazing is I do explain it to us but so I understand now I didn't that the Red Cross had centers for the first responders and some of these guys Would work all day and wouldn't even go home and they would go and sleep in a center near ground zero and Get a little rest and and rest up and then go back and they would never go home so they actually

worked and slept up and then go back and they would never go home so they actually worked and slept there and these centers need to be need to be run and you volunteered there. Yeah, and so tell me what go into what I just said explain that what how it worked. How it worked was my first responsibility was just to help them get food. So many amazing people donated so much food. I couldn't eat. I felt I was taking something away from someone else. And about two days later, and I wouldn't talk to anybody. For the first time in my life,

I wasn't this bubbly person. I didn't know how to be. And I started doing these hero sticks, making little flags, saying they were hero sticks you'd had to fight crime. What would you make an amount of? They were chaps, and I just put little labels on them. It's here, you're a hero.

And then I would buy a bunch of lifesavers, put them in a bag, and just say, because you are a lifesaver, because many of them weren't feeling that. But it was the only way I could speak. I could not speak. And about two days after my midnight shift, my leader with a bunch of others would say, we're going to ground zero and I asked, are we allowed? And she goes, have you ever looked at your ID? It's the first time I did, and it said, access everywhere.

And I thought, oh, well, this is not going to please my husband. I can do it. You had more access than him. But we went down to pray. I know now where I was, because as you both know, I have no sense of direction. But the bottom line is also, there's really no clues anymore because everything's just

just rubble. But I know now that I was near the North Tower and the North Tower bridge. And the way it looked, I was like, I'm standing up here and all of a sudden I can see this big hole and it wasn't even as big as it turned out to be at the end when they had cleaned it all up. And that was because it was filled with the building. Yes. And I just said, naively, where is everything? And one of them grabbed me and hug me.

So you're the New Yorker. And I said, where is everything? I knew it was gone. I've seen the pictures. But when you see it up close, it is totally different. Okay. So paint that picture for me. All my senses. What did it sound like? What did it smell like? Could you taste it?

I could taste it like rotten peaches. Rotten peaches. I only eat nectarines now. I can't deal with peaches. Really? It rotten. Just rotten. And... You could... so you could still taste it. They're with peaches. Really? It rotten, just rotten.

And... You could, so you could still taste it. What did it smell like? Oh, well, NMS, you know what that smells like. They give us these little basil. So the whole area smelled like... Oh, it was death. It was, it was bird flesh.

You could smell that. Still. I go into the historical exhibit and I know there are no smells there. There's nothing there. But as soon as I walk into a certain area I have to walk back up because I'm right there again. My husband's only done it once and that was when they gave us an exhibit and he went in. I said you have to. You know you were part of this. We're trying to tell a story that people don't understand and he said just get me to. You know, you were part of this. We're trying to tell a story that people don't understand. And he said, just get me to the site and let's get out.

Would it feel like? Scary. Scary to a point. After that visit with my team leader, I went back and everything looked different for me. I understood why people were hugging. I understood the reason why people were just holding hands. I didn't want to do any of that.

The strangers, really? Yeah, but, you know, like how are you doing this? You don't really know each other, but I understood as soon as I came back from the site. And I looked in and I said, they're comforting each other. And at that moment, they told me, your assignment's been changed. And I said, where am I going?

You're going to stay as to take care of first responders. And I thought that was a blessing. Because I couldn't help my husband. So you're standing there and it smells like rotten peaches. No, it tastes like rotten peaches. No, it tastes like rotten speeches. Like rotten peaches. It smells like burning flesh. And there were other smells.

I knew there were fires from the building. Smoke still. Yeah, oh, there was definitely smoke. Did it smell like diesel fuel at all? You know, I don't work collect that. I just, I've always wondered from the planes because that's what started the fire. It might not.

If you could still smell that. It might have been the first week or two, but I didn't smell it when I came in on the thing. Okay, so it taste the smell. Taste for me was like, Bronton, please. Did it feel gritty? Was the ear gritty?

Everything was gritty. Everything was gritty from my shoes. When we got outside, we had to get another vest on. Okay, and you see a hole that's basically a building filled. Could you... And I guess you see people working on top of the rubble. And what did you hear?

Wow, you hear a lot of trucks. You hear the sounds of those big... Excavators, machinery. The machinery, but the light's a big light. big light oh the the generators okay they were going on and it didn't look like nighttime It looked like you weren't Vegas when it's night and you all that you see is like okay Well, that's another thing to see is so middle the night, but it's bright everywhere because it's 24 hours You see fires and I remember when I got out the first time How did my shoes get so muddy?

Really? Yeah, and I was standing in, no, it was mud piles because they had been spraying the whole entire area to, you know, break down any flags and this was the residue and, you know, I wondered, where are my shoes? I'm standing right here and somebody said, just pull them out. We'll get them cleaned for you and Okay, and I was I was so robotic at that moment, but Something changed when they put me into work as first responders. Yeah, and so from there You that's the thing you get what you're volunteering to do is actually 10 to the first responders that are coming to these. What are they called respite sensors? They're each have respite centers. So they set up respite centers so that a fireman

or any first responder or police officer, whatever, they work until they're about to drop, they're covered. The reason I wanted these senses, they're covered in the soot and this mud and this filth and they must stink like death and rotten peaches. They have to have it all over them. What I remember is how dirty they looked. I would give them enough clothes to shower, just to change their onto garments. And what didn't go away was a smell of smoke, even though they had clean undergarments, they still had to wear their uniforms. Oh, and to that stench. That does not. And we did everything we banged in. I put whatever I could. It didn't matter.

So you're in this, these respite centers, taking care of the first responders, they're in this mess, breathing this crap, and hailing it, trying to clean and find frankly body parts so that some family can have just a piece of their loved one. I can't even believe I'm saying this, but this is what it this is reality. And they're coming to a respite center that you're now at to with other volunteers to help these folks get a little rest and they don't even go home and then they get back up and they go right back to it.

And this went on for months, yeah. This went on for months. One of the issues we had in our team was firefighters could take off their garments and put it on the edge of the floor. And we also had engineers and all that, but when it came to police officers, they couldn't take their guns off. And so a lot of the people that I was working with

said we don't know how to wake them up because they jump and I go, I know how they jump and they've got a gun on. Yeah. And so I said, here, following me, this is what you do. What's their first name? So I was just go up to they head about their faces with their name and they're going to think they're home. And that's exactly what happened. These guys, complete strangers didn't matter. They weren't strangers. They were family. So you're literally rubbing these guys in. I'm rubbing some other woman's husband's face, but it didn't matter. They didn't wake up and shock. They didn't wake up

thinking something else is happening. And for those who were working with me, they said, thank say thank you, because we would just shine flashlights in their face, hoping they would wake up and they would still jump up. One of the things I've read about shock and one of the things I've read about people that come home from war is one of the hardest things they have to do is actually sleep. That in closing their eyes, their mind immediately goes to the horror that they've experienced. And by not sleeping and keeping your eyes open, your mind doesn't trick you into having

to relive that horror. And what that leads to though is people who are already in a stressful situation, they don't get enough sleep. And then it exacerbates the problem. So it's like, damned if you do, damned if you don't. Were any of the guys, I mean, we're talking about firefighters and policemen, we're talking about, you know, guys, guys rolling in these places.

And so I gotta believe they're walking in with this facade of Um Tuffus Hell. But then they shower and they try to get cleaned up and now they're supposed to get rested. Did any of them struggle? Was just sleep? Um, the, the few that I had, um, when I would get them to their assigned cops would grab my hand or wrist and tell me can you just sit with me for a minute and it was at that moment that I understood why my husband couldn't sleep and they some of them said I can't I don't want to see what I just saw and whatever they wanted me to do I would do so if it was a dumb joke I would say and I'd invent one. Some of them wanted to pray.

Some of them just wanted to put their heads on my shoulder and I did it because I felt I couldn't do it for my husband. Maybe somebody in the day tour would do it for him. Just pay it forward. And did you let these guys know that you were married to a cop? Absolutely. I had my... So they knew that you knew what the job was.

Yeah. And I showed them I said, listen, you know, I'm not on the job, but I am on the job. And they would smile. They would talk to me. And that would mean their whole entire 40 minute rest. 40 minutes. Yeah. So then God and now, well, because some of them were still on duty, they were given an hour break and they decided, oh, that's where I'm going to go. And then they realized, that's where we can't go, because we can't, we're not resting. And imagine you in police office, there were all this equipment on. Couldn't take any part of you, you know, full month, because if they called you, you had to be ready to respond. And so for me, the best part and the worst part of my job was

bringing them comfort. Anybody who wanted it didn't matter to me. Who you were, what you were crying about, whatever you wanted to tell me stayed with me. And as the days went on, I understood why my husband wouldn't talk. I understood a lot about him. Well, you didn't have to do this. You were a volunteer.

I volunteered because it's your responsibility, whether you're EMT or not, this is your community. You have to get involved with your community If you're not then what's the point that takes a village and I was part of that village So But that's the point is You know you sure you're an empty sure your your husbands on the job but you know, you just you're Sonya from the Bronx. And and and the worst thing that's happened in our country since

Pro Harbor. And in the midst of what we've described of true human horror, do you go down there every day simply to try to console and take care of the people that are trying to take care of this mess? I think everyone should have. And how long did you do that? I was there until the mid-December when my husband asked me to please not go anymore.

So four months. Yeah, he didn't want me to go back anymore. And my daughter was also, it was just mom, I can't sleep, I can't go to school. And I said, okay, I have to be a wife and I have to be a mom, but I did something. And I continue. I started from there doing other things,

just for people who want to be here. How close are these respite centers if you're only getting a 45 minute break? There must be right on top of the questions. St. John's was I think three blocks away, stibeson, two or three blocks. Two or three blocks. Yeah. And then they had tents. Okay. Well, then even when you're not on ground zero, even working at these places, you're in the midst of it all.

Resource smoke and fire for months. So how many volunteers were there like you? Oh, wow. For the Red Cross, all I can tell you is my midnight team had about 20 with myself included and we couldn't leave unless somebody came to replace us. But it was around the clock. Some of them that I spoke to weren't even. And there were many respite centers. Yes.

You had to marry a hotel that had respite centers. Whatever, well, I can't say Burger King, because that was a center for the police department. But wherever there was a hotel or something big enough to house people that was what was done for thousands. I would say yeah, and a lot of those stories don't even exist anymore. All of whom, breathe in this toxic crowd. Yeah. We'll be right back. So, we're 20 years later and you're still volunteering.

I never left. I mean, except for the seven years that we couldn't talk about 9-11, we, I never left. My heart was always there. And when the opportunity came up after my mom passed, before she passed, she reminded me that I said, I was still going to do something for the community. And she goes, you've been taking care of me too long. And the day after we buried her,

I got the email from tribute. Are you still interested? Tell her to explain to our listeners what tribute the 911 Tribuse Museum was the first museum on ground zero. And it was started by the September 11 Families Association. And we actually started on the streets. We didn't have offices or anything. We would just pull people in X would you like to go and we can tell you. And the criteria of the 9-11 Tribune Museum was that the only people who could do this were people who had a personal connection.

So the only people who would do tours. Or talks, we've gone to school, I've gone to Japan. And so it's either first responder, recovery worker, survivor, a family member, or resident because we were directly affected. And that became the difference between what we do and what the National Museum does. And it was not only to tell the stories, that's what we thought we were doing,

but we realized very soon was that we were healing, because you're talking to strangers who aren't gonna tell you move on and get over it. And at the end, those strangers became our friends. They hugged us. Some of them have kept in touch with us. They've come back three, four or five times and they will say, oh, we want to tour with Sonia. I go, there are so many other people. Yeah, no, we want to hear it from you. And we put a face on 9-11. But people forget about the flight 93 where there were 40 people which used to be always 200. That flight took off late. And these 40 people knew

they were being hijacked, they knew where they were going and they made the democratic decision when that plane was overland or water, that they would take over that cockpit, even though they knew they would die. And I always say not to take away from any of our first responders, but those were our first heroes. They knew what was going to happen. Because whatever that plane was going to hit, they saved. And people in whatever, some think it was the Capitol, some think it was the White House. Well, it was, it was the Capitol because Congress was in session.

It was the first day. Had to have been, I think. It was New York's economy, the world's economy, a world's military, which was a Pentagon, and the Capitol. And they got two out of three, but we all these 40 people, the debt and gratitude that they knew, they didn't know why, but they knew they were getting calls information and they say, we're not letting this happen.

By that time, I believe both captains were murdered. And there is a black box that was taken. We've gone to Shanksville and there is a display of how the plane with people were fighting and you can see the plane going deep to the right, deep to the left and the terrorists would say, we're not going to make our mark, let's just kill them. And so they flew the plane up, swisted the plane upside down, and that was that they didn't care. And saved countless lives, hundreds, maybe even thousands.

This is why those are my favorite people of all time. Okay. And that was my favorite people of all time. Okay, so my question to you about the volunteer work is, I've been really fortunate to meet some of the first responders recently. um, recently and every one of them I've met her sick with some kind of weird leukemia or stomach stuff and they all have this this cough that's odd. The bark, we call it the bark. And you have that. And my husband and I compete every morning who's bark is the bark. Your husband what?

We and I compete every morning who's bark is allowed as this. And you? And I compete every morning who's bark is allowed. And you call it the bark? It's because it sounds like we're barking. And tell me, tell me what is cost? Medically, among the group of people that... Thankfully, we had insurance, and then the VCF came. The Victims Compensation Fund, a federal program to cover the medical bills, for illnesses resulting from the toxic environment that was ground zero.

And basically we get free medicine, but it's hard to get certified for any illness. We have to prove you were there. We have to get affidavits. My husband for one was there. I mean, he signed his time sheets and when he went after he got sick, he got sick 10 years later. He had already been retired and when he They told him you can get three quarters for this. This was on the job. Don't let it go. They denied him four times Because you can still work and he goes, no, I'm a bodyguard.

And there are things I have to do while I'm protecting someone that I cannot do. And so it's their life or my job. And I'm here to protect their lives. And he literally had to go to another hearing and pull his pants down and show his diapers. Are you kidding me? No. And then the wives left behind.

Some of these men and women, but I can only speak for the women I know, I'm in a support group, private support group because our husbands did not come home. They didn't, their bodies did, but their minds. They added to everything is we're married to two different men. They get angry, they don't, they won't do as they're told in terms of medical. Then we have to watch them get sick, we have to watch them get worse. We have our children have to watch it. And then when that's done, then we have to watch them and then when that's done then we have to watch them die. And then after that we depend on what on our benefits because we've been spending all this

time taking care of them and then they're denied. Oh no, he didn't sign this. Oh no, he was there. He was there. We have proof he was there and that's never enough. Our city failed us. Our government failed us. Are you dealing with health issues? I gave up. Yes. I have... Oh wow. They won't approve my fibromyalgia, which I never had before 9-11. They won't approve my thyroid illness. They only get, they only approve my sinus and my gird. That's it. And I'm in, I'm in constant pain. I've tried every treatment available to me,

but I only have one kidney due to cancer. And there's a lot of things I can't take. My husband had bladder cancer. Last year, they removed the tumor occupying 85% of his spine. But if you go to a doctor now and you put down your medical history and you say anything about 9, 11, they do this. No, no, no, no, no, no, no paperwork to fill out. Just write a letter. So can we say that the penalty that you and your family are experiencing in many families that

volunteered and gave their time in the aftermath and on one one literally is killing you? It is. So I got to ask you, would you change it? When I change one going down there? No. Even though you're in constant pain and even though you're strapping cop husband had to demoralize himself to try to get all of it, You wouldn't change a bit of it. Why? Because it's humanity. It's humanity at its best. We have to do what we can for each other. Otherwise, your community suffers. And what happens when there's another attack, your community isn't strong enough. People don't care enough for each other. That's not my business. I have not, no, I have nothing to do with me. Yes, 9.11 has to do with everybody. It was a global event. 90 to nations were affected, but it was also a personal event. And there are a lot of people that don't know,

I don't want to be bothered or some people that just can't because it's too hard. I have friends that have moved out. I don't, I don't want to be here. Sonya, you know, you were in your early 20s when you saw the lady fall out. And it started a, it started a decades long journey for you of just serving other people. And it's at this point, it costs you and your husband, your health, it's cost you your... It sounds to me like it's cost some of your happiness. It's cost us our daughter. It's cost you your daughter. How?

We're speaking now, but at one point she screamed and yelled and she said, I'm sick and tired of you guys being so sick. I'm tired of this. And we didn't hear from her for about six months. And my husband, I thought this is the price we put. She's come back around since then, but she's angry at the never. And we feel so guilty that we had a part of that. There are a lot of people who I know one woman, a good friend, husband is PD, and his attitude has changed so much that three of her children want to die. They actually attempted murder.

She had to leave the house because of abuse. And that's why we have a private group, survivors, wives of 9-11 survivors. Because we're paying a price that nobody seems to understand. And we get told, well, you can go to the group therapy. We don't want to talk to a group of women that don't understand what we're dealing with. And then we are told how grateful we were. That they came back. So you should be happy that you're dealing with this. No, I didn't marry that guy. And I didn't expect to lose my daughter either. And those she's in a life and we have a beautiful granddaughter that

still then anger between us. And we just try. That's a blessing. Yeah, I just turn it off because right now it's like, I don't have time to be a mother. I can only be a grandmother. These are the things we tell ourselves, but it's hurting us. It's killing us. And we're not the only ones. There are a lot of my girlfriend's who says my daughter left, my son left,

oh, because my husband is this way. So as wives, we've, you know, we gotta take care of our partner, but we also have to take care of our children. And if we try to do either one, someone's always gonna be angry at us. I just live every day thanking God that He trusted me enough to live another day. That's the way I have to see it otherwise.

I know I will go absolutely bonkers and I will have any intentions of doing that. We'll be right back. We talk a lot about on this show about common people doing extraordinary things. That's the whole idea of the army of normal folks. And there's just not much more normal than a paramedic and a cop getting married in the Bronx and living life.

And the extraordinary things that you did after 9-11, just to serve, and then the extraordinary things you've done in the last few years to tell the real story of 9-11, to people who wanted to know what was going on, and all that it's cost you, and you still say, wouldn't change a bit of it because it was just the right thing to do. I mean,

you'd have to do the right thing. But that is so inspirational. That is, I just listen to some things that we've talked to people who are in jail for 20 something years and then they turn their life around and they help others. We're talking to people who take homeless people jogging and actually turn their lives around and all these stories.

And but the point is you are living proof that you don't have to start a 501c3. You don't have to start a massive organization. You don't have to raise a bunch of money. You can be just a common living, trying to figure it out person, just like the vast majority of us, and still find ways to amazing things to serve their fellow man. And even in the face of sickness and death,

you still say, that's what we have to do. We're responsible for each other. And I think that's what we've lost. An entire year after 9-11, you could look at someone in the face and say, how are you, and they'd stop and tell you. You would let people stand in front of you and lie

because they only have three items and you've been there for 20 minutes. I believe you are where you're supposed to be. Don't question it. It's just what we have to do. And I, our country has gone down the tubes. But it's, so you're saying it's not a good thing

to give back its responsibility. It's a good thing to give back its responsibility. It's it's a good thing. No, it's not just a good. It's a it's a major responsibility. I mean think about one thing. Where I live, I live in a tall building. I might have 12 people who live on the same floor. I know there's about three elderly. If our internet is off or we know again, the bad storm, I immediately turn on, make some soup and I just leave it in front of their door because some people are very proud. And they look at that as, oh, you feel sorry for me.

No, it's just being neighborly just to let you know there's somebody here to help you. And I've had several people knock on my door who we just say hello to and one of them did do that a few years ago. And my husband, you mean, she was working around the hallways crazy. And I bought her in, I went back to her apartment, I took all her meds and I called 911, I just went on her cell phone, called the daughter, and oh my God, they're transporting her. I'll stay with you.

No, I'm going to be there. And two weeks later, she came back in our culture. And elephant is is a good, luck blessing thing. And so she bought me an elephant with some plants on it. And, you know, sadly, she would die six months later. But I'm forever grateful that she knew at one point in her life when she was all alone, that she wasn't. And no one should be alone. I love the holidays, but I also hate them, because I know so many people are alone and they shouldn't be. And when my daughter was in college, I would bring all the kids over who couldn't afford to fly home. I mean, isn't that what mom's posted? Wouldn't you as a mother want to know that someone's taking care of your kid? And nobody

cares anymore. It's, we don't live in the same world we used to live in. I don't know this world, but I refuse to give up. I'm not afraid either. Well, I think the human spirit and the very things that you're talking about that that that that demonstrate our humanity, I think it still exists. But I think it's examples of people just like you who help to inspire people to remember that humanity's important. Yeah, I don't see any rich people helping us. We do it on our own.

We do it on our own because we can, doesn't, whatever. It's what you, listen, I always tell anybody, I have a spare room, it's a little messy, but you're entitled to come over and say, you got a private bathroom, and I do cook. There's always a way, and just, I just think chicken and rice. A hroken poyo. Oh boy, what the world is that? Yes, it's rice mixed with the chicken, with peas, and you cook it so that the rice tastes like chicken. Oh really? Just Joe like it. Oh, that's his favorite. I just recently got into sloppy Joe's and he goes, why don't you have a cook that for me? I said, that's what I cook when I was

single and couldn't afford to do anything. He goes, please, bring back those meals. So we're very, listen, I'm married a great guy. When I don't want to cook, if it's not food, outtake food, he cooks, I, you know, I'm married the top of the line. That's it. That's all there's to it. Sonya, you are again, you're an inspiration. You're, you're adorable to talk to you. You got I wish people could see this big pretty smile It just you you talk with your hands You're just you're blasted to talk to and

Again, I you know, I don't want to overdo this, but I Again, I don't want to overdo this, but I don't want to sensationalize for the purposes of a show, the story we've talked about today. But I think it's really important people understand just the depth of the carnage. And I think it's important people understand that 9-11 still hasn't stopped killing, but more importantly, I want people to understand that the hidden silver lining of the whole event is that it did bring out some of the best of our humanity. I hold you with beautiful year. some of the best of our humanity. I hold you with beautiful year.

Yeah. I hold you with a beautiful, beautiful year. And despite all the illness and pain and suffering, those that served down there, I can't find any one of them that would say, no, I wish I had to gone head first. Me had to be there. But see, isn't that what it means to be an army of normal folks?

Just normal folks as an army, helping one another out and trying to serve just for the love of humanity. That's what's missing, but I've also seen it, I've seen it lately. Some people taking charge. How about if we do this, how about if we build this garden? How about if we do that? That's what I'm talking about. You don't need to go through written proposals and you don't need to go to Congress. They're not going to do. I don't believe that they do it. No, I have said plenty that I think the government proves woefully inadequate in serving. But it's the people that are living this, that know how it's done and know what to do and know the cost and bomb. So anybody listening to us, you don't

you don't have to go join something. You just do it. Just go do something. Like you said, just do it. Just do it. Serve, serve somebody that needs serving. And you're gonna feel ten times better. Yeah, that is kind of the payoff. It is my payoff. I mean, you get so much more out of it. Listen, since I decided to start doing tours on my own until tribute gets back on its feet, I can't tell you how many people come in and go, you're doing this for free and I go for now because tribute needs to come back. And they go, but you came all the way down here.

I said, where did you come from and we start that conversation and then I tell them things that I think everyone should know when they go we didn't know that. Now you do. Now go back home and tell other people. And the irony is you were supposed to have a shift today to go volunteer to tell these stories. This was important. Yeah, but that's what you're still doing. I am. I decided to do it on Saturday instead.

I just had to show you. He won't, he stopped doing tours about four years ago. But he did do some. He did do some under the condition that I do it with him. He would not talk with anyone else. It interviewed you. Have a lead and then you have a support. This support. He after while he says, I can't keep my story straight because so many things keep coming back. And also as he was doing tours, he would start remembering more stuff. And so one day I just took him down and says, talk to me.

I made a list of questions, talk to me. Tell me, okay, what happened this? And then, and I put it all together, I go here, that's your story. And if you, it's okay to tell people, I don't recall. I don't remember that it hates me because they need to also understand that our brains give us as much as we can handle.

Yeah, sometimes they're impressive. And but he, I think when COVID started and he lost his good partner who was also sick from 9-11 and we saw him one day in the following he was dead from COVID. That just... That was enough, huh? That was enough for him and he will go with me. We've spoken

in the precincts to the rookies. They don't know about 9-11-11. We'll see. That's the other thing. I mean, you think about what a rookie cop is, what are like 23, 24, 25, they have no idea. They won't even alive. No. Some of them. No. And if they were two, three years old, and if they had parents who were affected by 9-11, they just so Joe's going and talking to the working car. No, I go. I go. I book everything. And then I tell my need you to be there. Oh, really? So you kidnap them? Yeah. Are you a kidnap? Yes. Absolutely. With pride. And when I get I go, gee, I'm just so exhausted. Can you handle this part for me? And he, yeah, okay, so you did it again.

No, no, seriously, you don't have to go if you don't want to, and why just know that game so well. When you become a parent, you learn a lot more things. And he'll do it. He'll just talk briefly, but once he gets started, my man is back. Yeah, sure. So I don't force him, but if I know that this is an opportunity where he gets to speak

to other officers, that's his thing. Yeah, of course, it's the brotherhood. Otherwise, you want, can you talk to my friend? You know, she'll never understand. They believe that, you know, but that's a lot like you hear people from war coming back and they won't talk with their families, but if you get them around a bunch of vets, they'll all talk to each other. My father never talked about being a lot of...

Because they can identify with each other. My father never told us he was shot in the Korean war. He never told us how bad it was. He did show us his bayonet and said, so this is what you do. You go like this and you do like that. Yeah, not a one-gun war. I have to be that close to someone and stab him. Yeah, no. That's all he told us. That's all he had. My mother lived during the war. Um, came over from the

Netherlands with my grandfather with sensor Puerto Rico. She would never talk about it. Um, and so Joe will open up when he's in the safety of people that are in that because he knows that no one's going to judge him and he knows that they know. Yeah, well that's good though. What's important for me was I started writing notebooks to our granddaughter. And then about four years ago, Joe had a child from a previous marriage and she would not allow the child to come around and now we have another granddaughter. Well, that's awesome.

So, I've started dividing what I have and doing it for her because nobody told us in our family their history. Yeah, but that's not so much. That's not so much. It has to start somewhere. I want them to know that there's a lot they can do. And it does the question. And what they need to know is that their grandfather Joe and their grandmother Sonia are heroes.

Well, you know, I know, I know the self-effacing thing and I know it feels bad to hear that, but I'm telling you, you know, you guys have given your life to serving this community and it's inspiring. You're still dealing with physical and mental and psychological pain from it, yet you wouldn't change a minute about what you did. You can all shucks it all you want, but that is the definition of your own. I might change some of the things that I did it all you want, but that is the definition of it. I might change some of the things that I did do to protect myself, but that wasn't what was on my mind.

I understand, but that is, that's heroic work and it's inspiring work and it encapsulates what it means to be just a, a, a, a, a, a, a member of the army of normal folks, just normal folks doing amazing things. And I'm inspired by you. And I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed visiting with you this morning. I'm inspired by you. And that wonderful document. Oh, you're doing what I did. Well, no, I coach football.

You say, it doesn't matter. But you save lives. You, maybe you don't know that, but you saved lives of all those people you touch. So you are a hero is an ordinary person who does extraordinary things. And that's what you did. Well, then there were just kindred spirits. OK, then. And I'll take the hero of you.

Take the hero. I'll take it. OK, we're good then. So we do a lot of stories on a lot of different things. Like I said earlier, and one of the things we really encourage folks to do is just to, I'd give out my email address. If someone is listening today and says, you know, I can't start a 501c3 or I can't start a big organization, but I'm sure Zach just found a place to volunteer or even if they're in New York and they have an experience that they want to

to share You mind giving our listeners your email address so somebody can reach out to you. Absolutely not I will give you the one email address. It's mine I use it for personal stuff, but it's Sony S O N I A A a grown a GR O N night home giving you my age 57 at gmail.com I'd say it one more time and remember that this is a national audience and people from Memphis think you guys talk funny

so should I talk what we're flying? Yeah do that. Yeah, do that. You can go that way. But just do a more talk. Sonia S.O.N.I.A. A.G.R.O.N. 1957 at gmail.com. Awesome.

High five. In the shadow of the Freedom Tower, I say to you, thank you so much for the time this morning and it has been an honor to get to meet you. Thank you so much for the the time this morning and it has been an honor to get to meet you. Thank you so much. It was a honor to be here. And thank you for joining us this week. To join an army of normal folks, go to normalfocues.us and sign up to become a member of the movement. We would love to hear what you're doing in your community if there's stories you know about

that you think we should tell. Write me anytime at billatnormalfokes.os. And if you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, rate, and review it. Share it with friends and on social. All the things that can help us grow an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.

I'll see you next week.