An Army of Normal Folks - Supporting Greatness: Scottie Pippen, Sugar Ray Leonard, Top 100 Golfers (Pt 2)

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

For our special series “Supporting Greatness”, where we typically interview those who’ve achieved public greatness about their own Army of Normal Folks that supported them, this time we interviewed award-winning sportswriter Michael Arkush. He's written books with Scottie Pippen and Sugar Ray Leonard, about the top 100 golfers in history, and he celebrates each of their Army of Normal Folks that supported them.   Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, it's Bill Courtney with An Army of Normal Folks, and we continue now with part two of our conversation with Michael Arkoosh right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. I'm Soledad O'Brien, and on my podcast, Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to the 1960s. Mary Pinchot-Meyer was a painter who lived in Georgetown in Washington, D.C. Every day she took a daily walk along the towpath near the E&O Canal. So when she was killed in a wealthy neighborhood...

She had been shot twice in the head and in the back behind the heart. The police arrived in a heartbeat. Within 40 minutes, a man named Raymond Crump Jr. was arrested. He was found nearby, soaking wet, and he was black. Only one woman dared defend him, civil rights lawyer, Dovey Roundtree. Join me as we unravel this story with a crazy twist, because what most people didn't know is that Mary was connected to a very powerful man.

I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression. John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the Toe Path with Soledad O'Brien on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures, and your guide on Good Company,

the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation that's anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming, how she's turning so-called niche into mainstream gold, connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen. What others dismiss as niche niche we embrace as core. It's this idea that there are so many stories out there and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment, and sports collide. Hear how leaders like Anjali are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good Company on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Had spent 24 of those years in jail.

12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie, and he was the star of the show. Go-Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my screen, break my ribs. I had my feps all in my hands.

Only to find himself back where he started. Rodger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one, Rodger. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GO! Boy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you getart podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey. We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family.

They showcased a sense of love that I never had before. I mean, he's not only my parent, like he's like my best friend. At the end of the day, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change a thing about our lives. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care. Visit adoptUSkids.org to learn more. Brought to you by AdoptUSkids, the US Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the MeatEater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck. This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else.

Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and best-selling author and meat eater founder Stephen Rinella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here and I'll say it seems like the ice age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to the American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you

get your podcasts. You went into a rabbit hole for three years and you were afraid that Pauletta was going to put out a missing persons report because nobody saw you. And you developed this thing and then you go all over the world talking to these people or their families. How did you make, hi, I'm Michael, I'm writing a book. Because, well, a number of my new. So I had their numbers and all that and then I got led to other players. That wasn't, but it was great catching up with them

because part of the book also was, I want part of the whole idea of it. I said, I wanted to find out these players now in their seventies and eighties, how they viewed their lives now versus when they were in whole idea of it. I wanted to find out these players now in their 70s and 80s, how they view their lives now versus when they were in the heat of competition. Do the losses matter to them as much anymore? And I don't want to get too morbid about it, but that my whole concept was with the biggest loss of all to come, how did they view their lives?

And I guess personally, I'm getting older. That also was part of my thinking. I wanted to kind of figure out where did the sport fit in my life? And so I was trying to have those conversations with them. It didn't really work a lot of times, but I felt at different moments that I'd hear a pause, something in their voice, an effect,

that made it sound like they understood, they didn't care about those losses as much anymore. They saw the perspective of all of it. That is so interesting. Okay, so for those of you with fathers, when Father's Day is coming up, I'm telling you, you're crazy not to buy this book for him. And you don't even have to be a golfer

because it's also, as I've read through, I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I have read half of the chapters. As I've read through it, it's such an interesting history lesson because we're not, we're not just talking about golfers, what they did on the golf course. So much of it is what they did off of the golf course and about their life that is vastly interesting that we're exposed to. course about their life that is vastly interesting that we're exposed to. The first one that I think is interesting in supporting greatness, Ken Venturi, obviously an amazing golfer, but might be known by, you know, people my age and younger is, is kind of the voice of golf on TV. Yes. You know, on the Masters, you always went to

Ken Venturi, you know. I mean, I remember his voice. Oddly, he came close to winning the Masters in 56, 58, and 60. And by 63, his game fell apart. And there was a really normal person who changed his life for him. Yeah, let me just tell you a little more about the background. In 56, he had a four shot lead entering the final round. He was an amateur, okay? He shot an 80 on the final day to lose. 6-3. Blew up.

Blew up totally. In 58, he lost to Arnold Palmer. It's a whole other controversy because of a ruling. In 1960, Arnold Palmer birdied the last two holes to beat him at the Masters by a shot. So here he is. He's in a period of a ruling. In 1960, Arnold Palmer birdied the last two holes to beat him at the Masters by a shot. So here he is. He's in a period of five years. Three times he could have won the Masters. Still won a bunch of other tournaments. 63 as Bill said, his game fell apart. And he turned to alcohol.

You know, he just was so down on himself. Everybody thought he was going to be the next Ben Hogan and it didn't turn out that way at all. So we went into a bar in San Francisco. Hold it. I want to read something. He wrote, I was a washed up loser. Now this is a guy who dad gum near run the Masters three times, top of his game. In his mind, I was a washed up loser. He wrote in his own memoir, closer to selling cars, my former line of work than to winning them. My swing had vanished along with my confidence. I turned to alcohol." Those are his words. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And he went into this bar, I'm just in downtown San Francisco, and he saw a guy named Dave Marceli, who had played football at the University of San Francisco.

And Dave spoke to him honestly. He basically told him, you're wasting your career. You're wasting- Wasn't Dave a bartender? Yeah, he was a bartender. I'm sorry. Yeah. This is the normal guy.

Yeah. The bartender. Yeah, the bartender, who basically said to him that he was wasting his life. And Ken just thanked him and had one last Jack Daniels, just sort of like a one for the road, right? Made a promise, I give you my word, I will not have another drink until I win again. The next day he's practicing.

A few months later, he's playing some tournaments, doesn't do well, finally comes up with a couple decent finishes. And that brings us to the 1964 US Open at Congressional outside DC where Ken Venturi won the US Open in near 100 degree temperatures after the doctor had told him, back then they used to play the US Open final round, 36 holes in one day on a Saturday. The doctor had told him after the first 18, do not go back out there, it could be fatal. And Ken did not care because what he had been living through was worse than that. He wound up winning the open and that entirely changed his life.

And he became the Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year. But then two years later, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and his career was over. That was it. But the point is, he would have never reached the pinnacle of his career if it wasn't for a bartender named Dave Marcello who talked him out of drinking and turned his life around. He wouldn't have been on the TV had he not done all this. His life was done. Yeah, just a bartender in San Francisco,

on Gary Street in San Francisco, yep. If you do not think the power of an army of normal folks is very real, and you do not think that opportunity exists around you every single day, you cannot hear that story and not understand that Dave Marcello, a former football player at the University of San Francisco, serving Jack Daniels to Ken Venturi,

challenging Ken not to waste his talent, and the man's life changed. That's another thing is, you know, that we talk about the supporting great is it doesn't just happen at the initial stage. It also happens so profoundly at another point, another turning point, really, it becomes later on. You could have that initial part of success, but when you falter, who are those people to pick you up in the middle of your journey? A guy like that.

Because Ken had success before that. We have to remember that can happen throughout one's life. All right. Sri Pak, a female golfer. And let me tell you one thing really important is why female golfers are in this book. I thought about another list, but I felt like women are marginalized enough in life and sports. They have to form the fabric of the greatest golfers of all time. So I made sure they were in there. I think I read, I think I'd actually read in this book. I know I read it

last night. It was late, it was midnight. But I think you credit the most beautiful swing in the history of golf to a female. Correct. Mickey Wright, absolutely. That her swing was more beautiful than any swing ever to walk the baseball. And Ben Hogan even said so, yes. Who supported her greatness?

Well, so many people supported her greatness, but I'll read first to something in here about her father really was the one. Her father pushed her. Some people feel her father pushed her too hard that he maybe should have let go but not done that. And, you know, a lot of people say that about those... That's an important point, I think, about supporting greatness is that it may seem like too much at a certain point. It may too pushy, too demanding to get to, I mean a lot of people say that about Earl Woods, Tiger's father, that he was too hard on him. But you know a lot of times that's what it takes to be able to get to greatness. It's not easy, right? It's not something that comes automatically. You

need that push. Yeah, I think I'd say about my four kids, they may be good and they may be bad, but none of them are going to be wallflowers. No. We're going to work. Yeah, yeah. And so in her early teens, her father basically got her out of bed to make sure she ran up and down the stairs of their 15-story apartment building about 100 miles from Seoul. I wanted to

teach her that to win in golf, her father said, she first had to win the battle within herself. I mean, that's it, isn't it? That's amazing. Yeah, that's it. And she credits much of her success to those lessons. Yeah, and she's important important because she on a global level had such an impact on the game Look at all the South Koreans and Asians playing golf right now so much of that because of her she's a pioneer all because her dad Pushed her yeah Yeah Alex and I have had a revelation these last six months where we really started talking about the fact

that you can have profound impact and be a member of the army of normal folks and your greatest work may be down the hallway of your home. And this speaks to that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because what's the point in going out and doing anything good in the community and society if you're not taking care of what's the point in going out and doing anything good in the community and society if you're not taking care of what's under your roof first? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kari Webb? Kari Webb.

Tell the story of Kelvin Haller. Yeah, Kelvin Haller was a greenskeeper at the club in Australia where she grew up. And basically when she was a little girl, she got to know him and he taught her so important. I don't want to bore you with the details of the game so much, but really taught her the importance of practice and swinging and all that. And then he had an accident and he became a paraplegic. And yet, over the years, he kept instructing her. He would receive these videos from Kari's caddy that he would get

and be able to kind of just buy the videos. And even I think sometimes talking to the caddy on the phone describing exactly what Kari needed to work on her game. And he went to passing away, which taught Kari another early lesson about the fragility of life, right? There's never, that lesson can't be taught enough, but he was hugely instrumental in her career

and she's one of the great players. Did you speak to her? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Did you? So she told you the story. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

What was it like, her delivery on that? Again, it was that voice. Reverence. That reverence, that appreciation. They're transplanted right away back to that moment of that relationship. And I heard it everything every time we talked about him. Yeah. Johnny Miller. Now, Johnny Miller was one of the greats and there's an homage he pays to, I think, his father.

Yeah. No, his father meant everything to him. His father was a Morse code specialist during World War II, worked the night shift as a supervisor for RCA in the Bay Area. And for two and a half years, he had his son hit ball after ball by a mirror in the garage, copying the swings of Hogan, Snead, and Nelson. Because his father had bought those instruction books from those players filled with pictures before he even took Johnny to the golf course. He played golf in the garage wherever he went and saw grass?

It basically just practiced the swing in the garage. The line is, the amount of time my father devoted to me was incredible. So basically, his father, the U.S. Open meant everything. So when Johnny Miller won the US Open in 1973, he was, the happiest thing about it for him was that he had done it for his father. We'll be right back. I'm Soledad O'Brien, and on my podcast,

Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to the 1960s. Mary Pinchot-Meyer was a painter who lived in Georgetown in Washington, D.C. Every day, she took a daily walk along a towpath near the E&O Canal. So when she was killed in a wealthy neighborhood... She had been shot twice in the head and in the back, behind the heart.

The police arrived in a heartbeat. Within 40 minutes, a man named Raymond Crump Jr. was arrested. He was found nearby, soaking wet, and he was black. Only one woman dared defend him, civil rights lawyer Dovey Roundtree. Join me as we unravel this story with a crazy twist, because what most people didn't know is that Mary

was connected to a very powerful man. I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression. John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the Toe Pat with Soledad O'Brien on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada

had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Had spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie and he was the star of the show. Go Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable.

I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my skin, break my ribs, I had my guts all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. Roger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one, Rod. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures, and your guide on Good Company,

the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation that's anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming, how she's turning so called niche into mainstream gold, connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there are so many stories out there

and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen. Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment, and sports collide, and hear how leaders like Anjali are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good Company on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's the deal. We gotta set ourselves up. See retirement is the long game. We gotta make moves and make them early. Set up goals. Don't worry about a setback. Just save up and stack up to reach them. Let's put ourselves in the right position,

pregame to greater things. Start building your retirement plan at thisispretirement.org, brought to you by AARP and the Ad Council. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian, Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck.

This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests, such as Western historian, Dr. Randall Williams, and bestselling author and meat eater founder Stephen Rinella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here and I'll say

it seems like the Ice Age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ray Floyd. Now Ray Floyd was one of my favorite golfers growing up.

Why is that? I think he was sponsored by Yellow Pages. Okay. Is that not right? I don't know. I think he, I think at one time he was sponsored by Yellow Pages, but Ray Floyd always played in the Memphis tournament. You're going to have to tell people what Yellow Pages are.

Well, I know. Well, if you're too old to know that, ask your mom or dad or grandparent. But I would always sneak onto the course because I didn't have money for tickets. There was a hole on the 16th green and the fence you could literally fall under. You're the guy. Yeah, I am that guy. That's exactly right.

And I would follow Trevino or Ray Floyd, or believe it or not, a guy named Andy Bean. Yeah, no, I'd spoke to Andy Bean a number of times, yes. No kidding, well the reason I liked Andy Bean is because he looked like a football player. He was a large human being. Large man. But anyway, tell me about Ray Floyd.

Ray Floyd was a playboy. He did not really fulfill his potential. That's another thing I found out in this book. There are a lot of players here who, as great as they were, should have been better. And he, I think, really messed up a lot of his early career. But then he met Maria, wound up marrying her, and he's at a tournament in the early 70s. And basically, he looks like he's not going to make the cut.

He runs into this friend of his, Bob Rosberg, another player, former PGA champion, and Rosberg says, hey, let's go to the racetrack. You're not going to make it. And Ray figured, why not? So Ray quit the tournament right there, decided he wasn't going to play the rest of the, I think he just played 27 holes and he realized he wasn't going to shoot well the next nine holes to make the cut. Went back to the hotel and told Maria, let's go pack.

We're getting out of here. She says, I'm not going anywhere. This is your life. This is your career. You're not walking out on this. You're not walking to go to the racetrack. I'm not going. She made him realize so importantly that he can't just throw away his talent. Talent's a gift, but what does it mean if you don't exercise it? What does it mean if you don't practice? But what does it mean if you don't? Exercise it. What does it mean if you don't practice and she he learned that lesson from her. That's one conversation years later He's at the he's in 1986 in June of 86 He had just blown up a chance to win a tournament in New York State

Westchester classic and they're in the car and she starts telling him why did you screw up on what happened? He's all these things happen and she starts telling him, why did you screw up on, what happened? He goes, all of these things happened. And she engaged him, got into that whole conversation. He basically stopped the car on the Long Island Expressway and was either you get out or I get out, right? And he wound up, nobody got out. The kids were crying in the back seat, went on. And he wound up winning the US Open a few days later

because of her persistence. At 43 years old? Yes. One of the excerpts is she said to him you've got a long life ahead of you. If golf isn't what you want to do for a living now's the time to get out and think about doing something else. You're not giving it your me. Right, right. I often will say that I know I wouldn't be in the lumber business if it wasn't for Lisa. Oh yeah. My four delicious, beautiful children, if they took after their father, would probably

be at least half incarcerated and God knows what else without Lisa. And I get a lot of headlines. I've got an Academy Award, wrote a book, got this podcast, I've been on all kinds of national TV shows and all the rest. But there's this beautiful brunette member of the Army of normal folks who I don't exist without. And so when I read Ray's story, I identify with what Maria is to him. Yeah, and she was known as really a tough person. So I mean- Lisa's tough as hell.

Absolutely. You know what's interesting to me is that we focus so much on the effect on people like Pippen and Leonard about these, the normal folks people. Let's think about the normal folks themselves and the courage it takes a lot of times to be honest and open with people who've already achieved a certain amount of fame. I think that'sable really. That's a really good point to, to be willing to speak up to this person who's on a pedestal. So when I was in high school, coach Spain, my God, I learned a lot of lessons for coach, but one of the ones he taught me was the value of a firm foundation.

You ever heard me talk about this? Yes. Yes. Yes. And he said, you know, if I stacked up a hundred dollar bills to equal a million dollars, it'd be about three feet tall. And he said, I'd like you to stand on those. And if you can stand on them for a minute, you can have them. But of course, if you stood on a pack of a hundred dollar bills, three feet tall, they just break and fold out from underneath. You can fall right them for a minute, you can have them. But of course, if you stood on a pack of $100 bills, three feet tall, they just break and fold out from underneath. You can fall right on your butt.

And he said, I'm gonna give you a football. If you can stand on that football for three minutes, I'll give you this million dollars. You can't stand on a football for three months. And he said, I'll tell you what, I'm gonna give you the state championship trophy for basketball. If you can stand on that thing for three months without falling off, I'll give you

this million dollars, you fall on your ass. And the point is literally, you cannot stand on fame. You cannot stand on fortune. You cannot stand on it. It's going to go away. It's fleeting anyway. You very literally will fall on your rear end and it will go away. However, if you

build your life on a firm foundation of character and integrity and trust and hard work and dignity, then when that money and that fame and fortune come your way, you'll be able to stand on that foundation and hold it in your arms, and you won't fall off because it doesn't define you. It won't ruin you. It won't make you fall on your rear end. I don't think you can properly maintain your balance on that foundation unless you have the army of normal folks in your life having the courage to remind you of the heading on your compass. And as you hear all of these stories of Pippin and Sugar Wade Leonard and all these golfers, it is just so apparent that it really is the power of an army of normal folks behind

all their greatness. Yeah, it's constant. I mean, I don't care how much you achieved, how long your life is. These are regular checkups you need all the time. Which means everyone listening us today has an immediate opportunity to be part of the army just by being a guiding light for a friend, a good grandparent or good parent or brother or sister or sibling. And although the investment you're making, you may not see immediately in this age of immediate gratification. It may be a decade or two later that what you do today actually shows its true effect. But people littered throughout the books you've written.

Are proof positive of that very thing. And it's more important now than ever because of technology, because we're everybody has their Facebook page and they're all do the likes and all that. And we distance each other. We think we're getting closer. We're getting further apart I think in my so you need those who are willing to bridge that gap to talk to you honestly And sometimes it's scary you're taking a risk We could take a risk and if you said something honestly to something you feel someone's going off the wrong way And you said that to somebody you could harm the relationship. But if you honestly believe that person for that person's

Welfare health that you need to say something. I think you owe it to that person to do it. Well and you can't be... you have to be courageous to be in any army. Yeah. Fascinating stuff. Any other stories you want to tell? Well there's so many in this book. I mean, you know, even the great players like, I mean, Jack, okay. Spoiler alert, Jack Nicklaus is number one in this book, okay? I can't believe you just did that. Not Tiger? Holy smokes. Now those may be fighting words from subsurface.

For those of you still listening, essentially, I mean, Jack Nicklaus had the most major championships. He's got 20. I'm not giving him, everyone had him at 18. I'm giving him the two US amateurs he won in 1959 and 61 because I believe that the amateur needs to have its glory restored. We have lost sight of the pursuit of golf. Golf is all about money. So much sports is about money. I could go on a whole other podcast, how much I hate the transfer portal in football,

all the money college guys. I mean, that's a whole other issue, Bill. I know you're smiling. No, it's just the transfer portal is not just college football. Yes, I know. It's NIL and it's all college athletes. It's not even college athletics anymore.

Ole Miss will spend $5 million on NIL for women's basketball this year. Yeah. So it's everywhere. Yeah. And coming to a high school near you, it's happening. So you watch in Florida or California or Texas, high school players will start getting paid. It will start there. I will bet and if someone says you can't do it, they'll go to the Supreme Court and they'll say if they can do it in college, I can do it in high school. It is going to start happening with 15 year olds. Yeah, watch and see. Yeah. No. And that's why for me in

this book, I mean, I can't tell you how much I can never tell how much a player made in a tournament. I don't know how much Tiger made his career, Jack made his career. I know the titles. I know the trophy. It should be all about the victory, the trophy, the pride that comes. And so many great players in history, that's what it was about. Now we talk about Liv. Now we talk about, I'm sorry I'm doing this in Memphis, but the FedEx Cup, okay?

That doesn't matter. What matters is the victory and the titles. And so I wanted to restore the amateur. So Nicholas won. I'm giving him credit for those amateurs. And so I wanted to restore the amateur. So Nicholas won. I'm giving him credit for those amateurs. He's got 20 majors, not 18. He's got 19 seconds, nine thirds. His numbers are better than Tiger Woods.

The reason I brought up Jack because Jack had a teacher named Jack Rout. He learned how to play golf from him at the age of 10. And I always wonder what if Jack Rout wasn't working at the country club in Columbus, Ohio, where Jack Nicholas was? Would Jack Nicholas ever have become Jack Nicholas? And that's the other thing with all these greats. They also were very fortunate. The right person was there.

Dave Jacobs was there. What if he wasn't there? Who knows what would happen? Where does Sugar Ray Leonard end up? And what about all the people who didn't, because they didn't get blessed with somebody like that, how they turned out Yeah, but the point to that the inspiration to that for our show and our listeners is We may not be sugar a Leonard, but we can damn well be Dave Jacobs, right? Yeah

Yeah, could be may not had the God-given talent to be Jack Nicklaus, but we can sure be as mental We may not be 6'9 and can win six championship rings with Chicago Bills, but we could be Scottie Pippen's brother. Yeah, absolutely. Who now I think still coaches high school ball or something. Or did at least at the time of the book. The point is, there's opportunity every day. Every day. To support greatness. Absolutely. By being a member of the Army.

And what do we do when we support greatness? We're not just supporting our friend, our family member. We're supporting the values and ideals that we should live by. And we can't lose sight of that either. We'll be right back. I'm Soledad O'Brien, and on my podcast, Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to the 1960s. Mary Pinchot-Meyer was a painter who lived in Georgetown in Washington, D.C.

Every day she took a daily walk along the towpath near the E&O Canal. So when she was killed in a wealthy neighborhood... She had been shot twice in the head and in the back behind the heart. ...the police arrived in a heartbeat. Within 40 minutes, a man named Raymond Crump Jr. was arrested. He was found nearby, soaking wet, and he was black.

Only one woman dared defend him, civil rights lawyer, Dovey Roundtree. Join me as we unravel this story with a crazy twist, because what most people didn't know is that Mary was connected to a very powerful man. I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression. John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the Toe Path with Soledad O'Brien on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Had spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity.

He was an adrenaline junkie, and he was the star of the show. Go Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my skin, break my ribs, I had my feps all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. Rod, you're saying this, I've never heard anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong.

You're so wrong on that one, Rod. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi for a conversation that's anything but ordinary.

We dive into the competitive world of streaming, how she's turning so-called niche into mainstream gold, connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there are so many stories out there, and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content. The term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment, and sports collide. And hear how leaders like Anjali are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good Company on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey. We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family. They showcased a sense of love that I never had before.

I mean, he's not only my parent, like he's like my best friend. At the end of the day, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change a thing about our lives. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care. Visit adoptUSkids.org to learn more. Brought to you by AdoptUSKids, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck.

This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian, Dr. Randall Williams, and bestselling author and meat eater founder, Stephen Ronella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say

when cave people were here. And I'll say, it seems like the ice age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Questions? We're gonna talk about one more book first, Bill. Huh? We're gonna talk about one more of Michael's books first.

Oh, for God's sakes. I didn't. This, Phil's... I will shut up now. You can interview him. I'm not about to interview him about my own book. It's gonna rip. We just want to ambush you. Okay. No, I want to tell you, and this, I mean this very deeply is that the- First of all, for everyone listening and the people sitting in this room, I had no idea he had my daggum book with him.

So yeah. That's why I put it underneath the other- It feels a little gross sitting here, but go ahead. What do you have to say? with them. So yeah, that's why I put underneath the gross sit here. But go ahead. What do you mean? I'm just because I was so affected by the people that you introduced me to Sam and and and talked about. God, there's a there's a there's a we have a shop talk on Sam Quinn, don't we? If anybody wants to know who Sam is, go to our shop talk.

Yeah. I mean, and Sam passed away how many years ago now? About two. Yeah. The dignity that he carried himself with day after day, that was so moving to me. So that book had a profound influence on me and meeting the people that you... You also just told me just this morning you went and visited another person. Yeah, Jackie, who is, how many years has she been there now?

I was trying to figure it out. 31? Yeah, where I'm staying in Memphis, down the block at the Lorraine Motel, Jackie. Lorraine Motel, where Martin Luther King was assassinated. Right, and Jackie, what is her last name? I'm trying to remember. Smith. Smith. Yeah.

And she, when I did the book to Bill 10 years ago, she was there every day just trying to keep in people's minds the importance of this hotel, this motel, of what it means to history, what it means to African-American history. And I, that's a whole other story. And I was so gratified to see her there this morning again after all these years still keeping up that fight. She has been on that curb for 31 years, protesting the National Civil Rights Museum, which that doesn't seem right,

that an African-American woman would be protesting this museum, but her argument was that monuments don't perpetuate the memory of men like Dr. King actions do and that she would have liked to have seen some of the money spent on that hotel rather than creating gentrification in a place where there were needy people that that money would have been sent to support the people who'd supported that rain when Dr. King was there. That was her protest.

She holed herself up in the hotel, and after 30 days, the sheriff's, Shelby County sheriffs, put her and her belongings on the curb across the street, and for 31 years she has not left. Phenomenal woman. Yeah, yeah. I mean people are capable things you can't imagine really when it comes down to it. Brad Gaines, I want to ask you about him. Are you in touch with him at all? Yeah, I've talked to him fairly

recently and obviously his daughter is making waves in the national spotlight right now. I did not know that. What? She is the lead behind transgender athletes not paying. Gotta tell Michael is her first name. Oh no. Riley. It's Riley Gaines. Riley Gaines is Brad Gaines' daughter. Oh wow, I did not know that.

Yes, that is Riley Gaines. Oh my gosh. Right. You guys gotta get people in where you're talking about. Who is Brad Gaines? Yeah. What's that? Well, I think Michael's gonna tell us. Well, I mean, I just remember he was the, he was the, what happened is that Chuckie Mullins, the player

from, the Rebels football player, broke his neck on a play in October of 1989 and Brad Gaines was the man he had tried to tackle and they became great friends and it just showed, what would you say that that was the most important impact for you on that was? Well I was there and I watched it happen and 15 minutes later I watched the helicopter pull off the south side of the vault Hemingway with Chucky in it. We all knew that it was bad and Chucky of course painted quadriplegic and died five years later. Chucky hit Brad. Brad was catching a football. Brad went to visit Chucky three days later and it changed his life and every single year on two different occasions, the anniversary of the accident and on Chucky's

birthday, Brad goes to Russellville, Alabama, where Chucky is buried and he cleans his gravesite and wipes his headstone. And Brad is this white guy from Nashville and went to Vanderbilt. And Chucky's this very poor black guy from Russellville, Alabama, who was raised by his football coach. They come from two different walks of life. And when Brad leaned down over Chucky in Baptist Memorial Hospital in Memphis to tell him how sorry he was, Chucky looked at him and said, it's not your fault.

And they forged a friendship and were best of friends until the day Chucky died. And now Brad looks after Chucky and will do so until he dies. And it speaks to the power of an army of normal folks, just seeing one another's humanity and it speaks to the power of an army of normal folks, just seeing one another's humanity and caring for one another. The whole thing, all this is about is the triumph of people

and the character and the ideals over the rapid movement of technology and everything going on. I feel that as long as we hold onto that and keep people acting in that way, there's so much hope for the future. And littered throughout your books are stories of just how that interaction affects changed lives to the point of greatness. So anybody else have any thoughts, ideas or questions while we have Michael before we wrap? Yes, sir. Are you going to tell him Tiger Woods should be number one, not Jack Nicklaus? Say your name, please.

I'm sorry, John Branstam. There you go. When you deal with these famous folk, do you have to emphasize to them that it's their story, but it's your book and you have editorial control? And if they say something and then they say, Oh, don't put that in the book, please. How do you deal with that? That's a really good question.

Yeah. Because as someone who has done a book with Michael before, you actually start to worry about that because what happens is they keep asking questions and you end up going down these paths and you open up and then you're like, I don't know if I want that out there or not. So there's an enormous amount of trust that has to exist between you and your biographer.

And if you break that trust, you can forget the book. So I will tell you from my perspective how that is, but from the writer perspective and and how You protect these stories It's a different kind of book because it's not in their words So if they told me something they're really good, I didn't say well, you sure you want that in there, you know, I Didn't do that, but they are aware that they were on the record They were aware that I could use anything they told me.

And it didn't get, it never got to that level where something, nobody said, oh, you can't use that. I mean, technically when somebody tells you something and then they say you can't use it, it's too late, right? Because they've already told you. But you wouldn't. I wouldn't do it anyway. I wouldn't violate that.

I one time had somebody tell me something and that person called me up a couple hours later and just was like I really wouldn't want that in there and it's a tough call because it's good news but then you also realize well you want to build you don't want to hurt somebody and you also and by not doing that I wound up creating this longtime friend that paid off journalistically much more than if I run that initial statement. What was it like with Phil Jackson? Because everybody knew him as the Zen Master, and he's clearly thoughtful, philosophical, he's well read. What was it like dragging information out of him?

Oh, it was, I mean, I can't tell you how blessed I was to sit there and hear the... I mean, we think as sports writers, we know a lot about sports. We know nothing compared to somebody who's in the throes of it, who understands the intricacies of every single play and mindset. It was like going to a master... Every hour and a half with two-hour interview with him was like a master class. Unbelievable about the nuances of the game of basketball. But in all the conversations in the years since then, we hardly ever talk about basketball. We talk about life, we talk about relationships, we talk about politics, all that stuff. Because I'm not, I mean, I love sports,

but let's face it, in the whole scheme of things, you know, there's so many more things more important than that, aren't there? But I love Phil Jackson. He's great. Say your name, sir. But I love Phil Jackson. He's great. Say your name, sir. Bye, no sirs. Yeah. I'm Philip Liz and me. Thank you for being here first. Thank you. This is my questions revolve around Tiger Woods

since you mentioned him. How did when you were researching or interviewing him, how did he view his father Earl? Did he feel like he was too tough on him or did he give him a lot of credit? And the second question is a reference to what you said, which is the scandal took a little some of his greatness away. Now that he has matured as a man and father and gotten way past that, did he feel like

it also hurt his legacy and his credibility? Well, first of all, I didn't talk to him. Okay. He's one of the number of players he doesn doesn't, authors don't interview a tiger. Doesn't happen, okay? Which is a loss, I think, really. But I think you asked about his father. Say that again, kind of like what you want.

Did he credit, how did he view his father? Because his father was pretty tough on him, shaking a can of coins when he was golfing and things. Yeah, yeah, no, I think he has all the gratitude in the world for what his father taught him. He reveres his father. Yeah, yeah. There's no question about that. I first met Tiger at a tournament in 1996 in Illinois.

He was 20 years old. He blew the tournament in the last round. Had a terrible day. I had a quadruple bogey on one hole. And in the press conference afterwards, I said, so what are you going to learn from that? And he stared at me for the longest time. And I thought, oh my God, this guy is so intense. And he said, I don't know, but I'm going to learn a lot. And he did. I've never seen anyone more driven than Tiger Woods. That's for sure. So here's the bottom line. Michael Arkoosh has

written a cool book. He's written a number of cool books. The most recently, the Golf 100, a spirited ranking of the greatest players of all time. He has spent an enormous amount of effort and time on this and it's not just a ranking, it's a small historical snippet for each player that kind of describes how and why they ended up where they are to support their greatness. And guys,

if you're listening to me, for the father who has everything, get the book. It's awesome. I know you're not here just to promote the book, but I'm promoting it for you because I think it's awesome. And beyond that, it's so good to see you again. Oh my God, absolutely. Same here. Yeah. We're going to have dinner tonight with Lisa. Looking forward to it. Beyond that, it's so good to see you again. Oh my God, absolutely. Same here. Yeah, we're going to have dinner tonight with Lisa. Looking forward to it. Soulfish doesn't have tilapia anymore.

You broke that news to me yesterday. I'm still not over it. I know. There was a time for nine months where I think you ate tilapia at Soulfish restaurant. I kept that place in business. Probably three or four nights a week. They would go out of business without me, no doubt. It's unbelievable.

Michael, thank you for being here. Everybody, thank you for joining us. And I can't wait to see what comes out of that brain next. I know you've got another project you're noodling on right now. I'll tell you later. Yeah, you tell me later. Michael, thanks for being here.

Thanks very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. And thank you for joining us this week. If Michael Arkoosh or other guests have inspired you in general, or better yet, by supporting someone in your community or something else entirely, please let me know. I'd love to hear about it. You can write me anytime at Bill at normalfolks.us and I promise you I will respond.

And if you enjoyed this episode, share it with friends and on social, subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it. Join the army at normalfolks.us, consider becoming a premium member there. Any and all of these things that will help us grow, an army of normalfolks. I'm Bill Courtney, until next time, do what you can. Murder on the Toe Path, I'm taking you back to 1964, to the cold case of artist Mary Pinchot-Meyer.

She had been shot twice in the head and in the back. It turns out Mary was connected to a very powerful man. I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor promote aggression. John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the Toe Path with Soledad O'Brien on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Sam Mullins, and I've got a new podcast coming out called Go Boy, the gritty true

story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Had spent 24 of those years in jail. But when Roger Caron picked up a pen and paper, he went from an ex-con to a literary darling. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to Go Boy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 70 million stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time for skills to speak for themselves. Find resources for breaking through barriers

at tearthepapersealing.org, brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council. What happens when we come face to face with death? My truck was blown up by a 20 pound anti-tank mine. My parachute did not deploy. I was kidnapped by a drug cartel. When we step beyond the edge of what we know, I clinically died.

The heart stopped beating. I was dead for 11.5 minutes. And returned. It's a miracle I was brought back. Alive Again, a podcast about the strength of the human spirit. Listen to Alive Again starting May 13th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Why is a soap opera western like Yellowstone so wildly successful?

The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.