An Army of Normal Folks - The Preacher Developer: How to Change Your Neighborhood Without Moving Away (Pt 1)

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

Most people think success means getting out of the hood. Reverend Kevass Harding chose to stay—and is a highly unusual preacher who will have developed 50 affordable homes by the end of the year and generational change in the very Wichita neighborhood that raised him. In this episode, you’ll learn a practical blueprint for turning your own zip code into a place of opportunity instead of escape.Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/#joinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

One of my favorite stories is a single parent, raising his two kids, got in some trouble. They were homeless looking for housing. I'm trying to not get emotional. That's why I'm looking away right now. I look at people. I start crying. I'm a cry or something trying to, because I get emotional. See this person who's trying to change his life.

I mean, he wanted to change. He's like, I'm through with drugs. I'm sick of him. For him to feel like tears coming. I just, I see his face. But to give him keys, and that was, that was a great, great, great. And so he's a single father who had been fighting drugs, gone through transitions, homeless, and to give him a key to a home.

Three-bedroom, one bad. Do you think he'll eventually own that home? Yes. Oh, yeah, that's the beauty. I got pictures. I'll show it to. He will own that house one day. Welcome to an army of normal folks.

I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm an entrepreneur. And I'm a football coach in intercity Memphis. And that last part, somehow it led to an Oscar for the film about one of my teams. That movie's called Undefeated.

Guys, I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits. using big words that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox, but rather by an army of normal folks. That's us. Just you and me deciding, hey, you know what? Maybe I can help. That's what Reverend Kepa's Harding, the voice you just heard, has done.

Kavis grew up in one of Wichita's most challenging neighborhoods, played college football in Texas, and could have more easily pursued the American dream somewhere else, but instead, Kavis came home. He served that same neighborhood as a police officer, then as a pastor there, and even has gotten a double life as a real estate developer. Or maybe it's really all the same calling, bringing hope to its residents with the Bible and affordable housing. And by the end of the year, this reverend will have 50 affordable homes that they work to help folks own and flourish right there in their neighborhood. If you've ever wondered what it looks like to stop talking about change and actually build it brick by brick, block by block.

I cannot wait for you to meet Kepas right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Termaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Termaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real.

I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth, until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief.

The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain. a nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses.

I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, doubt the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it, to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Lettby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single. level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to doubt the case of Lucy Letby on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast.

I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Segregation and the day, integration at night. When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules. We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping on another world. Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together, But not everyone was happy about it.

You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and visit Myrtle Beach, comes Charlie's place. A story that was nearly lost to time. Until now,

Listen to Charlie's place on the I-HartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Reverend Davez Harding, how are you? You don't well. Happy to be here. Welcome to Memphis, fluent this morning, huh? Yes. Everybody, Kevis, I think, is it Kevis or Dr. Harding or Pastor Harding? How am I to address you, sir?

Well, you can address me as Kevice, but I say my professional name is Reverend Dr. Kevice, Jay Harding. Got it. But like you said, I knew I was in trouble, like when you bill. Really, money, it's really a French name. It's Cavas, which is a Cavas. I love the name. Cavas is in French, is in the French Alps. It's a place of protection.

Really? So they would say, get into Cavas. If an avalanche or something came. You got it. But then we take that same name, bring it to America. You know, we call it the same place, but we call it a crevice. Right. Which is a crack in the rock.

I got it. So you're a safe. Safe Harvard. Yeah. Got it. So everybody, the Dr. Reverend Kavis Harding, who we're going to call Kovas from this point for. Yes. This Kavis is fine.

Is the pastor and executive director is a pastor. He's the executive director of the Hope Community Development Corporation in Wichita, Kansas. It was kind enough to fly into Memphis this morning to join us and tell a story. Had a fascinating trip you've had. We had a guest. I don't know. One of the funniest guys I've ever met in my life. A guy named Bob Musikowski.

Am I pronouncing that right? Yeah. Is it Musikowski or Musikovsky? I always butcher myself. Just keep wrong. Yeah. But anyway, he's a Chicago guy. Okay.

And he has really invested in the inner city of Chicago, I think the West Side. And he's this like old school Irish Chicagoan gruff guy that, played football and got into bar fights and had a drinking problem one time of his life, but has this massive heart, and he is plain spoken as it comes. And if anybody hadn't listened to his episode, you had to look it up. But the reason I'm talking about Bob, and you're from Wichita, Chicago, is he said something that's really interesting. And he said, we always tell folks to do better and get out of the hood.

And he said, the problem is when people get successful and they get out of the hood, the hood only gets worse because all the people who have success that leave the hood continue to make it a talent desert. Yes, I agree with that. Well, you haven't done that. You're the antithesis of what Bob calls out. And everybody, Kevin's grew up in Wichita's North Side, which is now called the Near North Side. I think, as it's grown. Near northeast.

What's that? Near northeast. Near northeast, what I say? Northside. Yeah. There was a north side. We call it the North End, though. I now say particularly where my brown brothers and sisters live.

We got the black and brown. I got it. But same zip code. 67214. 67208, all those zip codes, yes. So you grew up there. You played college football out of state, which we're going to explore a little bit just because that sounds fun.

You became a police officer. and then you became a pastor. Yeah, the same neighborhood. Everything is in the same neighborhood. And he became a pastor. And now you're a community activist all in the same neighborhood, which is, I think, phenomenal. So tell us about just a little bit about how you're raised in Wichita's Northside and what that neighborhood looks like, because I think that gives us perspective. and then the football thing

and the journey to being a cop. Well, yeah, like you said, born and raised in Wichita. I still know my address. Now the home's been sold, but I wish I could have bought it. But I grew up at 1530. Well, I grew up with a single parent mom

where we moved a lot in that neighborhood. But my base was my mom's parents, which were my grandparents, and my grandfather really been the role model in my life. And so I grew up with him. He's, you know, in construction. So I'd live with him in summertime.

I even live with him for a middle, part of my middle school years. And that was home to me because it was what we called base. It was like 1533 North Piat, Wichitao, Kansas, 67214, 263, 2492. I still know all of that. If ever got lost, I knew I could say I live in 1533 North Piat. at Wichita, Kansas, the phone, everything.

My grandparents are Curtis and Chiquita Wilson, those type of things. So I grew up there, went to school, the local schools there, from elementary to high school. But I went to a lot of different middle schools and high school just because my mother had me when she was 18, well, turn in 19. And then I had a brother and sister after that. My sister and then my brother, my brother's deceased now.

but as a hardworking woman at 18 with no degree always worked took care of us I'm a you know people say you're a poor like P-O-O-R I was like we were P-O-O-O-O but didn't know it I mean because we mean for me we always had something to eat we've always clothed but the older you get you look back and go oh man I don't know how my mom did that but she did it all through her 20s but we always had to move because of this affordability of homeownership. She never was a homeowner. She became a homeowner late in life through marriage with her husband who has a home.

She now lives in Winston, Salem, North Carolina. But growing up in Wintersetal, that was home. I remember, you know, you know, this video. I could get on my bicycle and ride north and south in that whole neighborhood of that two zip code, 67208 and 67214. And you knew, I mean, back in those days, the 70s, if I got in trouble down the street,

it got home before I did. Right. Those kind of challenges. And I call them challenges because he didn't want to get in trouble. But that was that kind of feel. And that was my childhood growing up in that neighborhood, friends in that neighborhood, play sports.

That was my outlet. In all kids' dreams back then was I'm going to go to the NFL. That didn't happen. But you did play college ball. Yeah, play college ball. And I had a temp, I call it, well, free agent. I call them walk on for the NFL. I went to the chiefs and basically got cut, you know,

thanks for coming up. So you went to Hutchison Community College? I went to Hutchison Community. Well, out of high school, Went to Hutchison Community College, which is 45 minutes outside, Wichita, great school, got my degree in criminal justice. And then U-TEP came and recruited me. Texas, El-P, Texas, El-P. Texas, El-P.

University of Texas, El-P, U-TEP. U-T-E-P. Back in my wagering days, they were always good enough to cover, and they always played teams. that were U-TEP back in the day would always, they'd take on Texas. They'd play anybody. We played, I played Texas. I played Tennessee. Not surprising.

And U-T-E-P, U-T-E-P, we had a fun acronym for them, which was because they were always competitive with the bigger teams was you take them points. Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah. So if like U-TEP was a 20-point underdog to Texas, bet on U-T-T-E-T-T, because they may not win, but they were going to cover. You take them points.

You tell them. And 88, we, you're going to love this. So, 88, you like this. Because it's close. It's in Mississippi, but 88, we went to the Independence Bowl in Shreveport. And we were playing for the game. And I'm DB. And our coach kept saying, hey, guys, we got to really watch this guy from Southern

Miss. His name is favor. No, favor. We call them favor. So the whole time, we're like, man, we got to watch this favor. And then we get out to the game. We're in drills and a couple completions. As Brett Farr, I said, his name's not favor.

It's name Farr. That's cool. You got to play against him. And he was a fun guy at week. Because, you know, in bowl games, you actually. You hang out. You eat together. You do stuff together.

And so we're like, and looking back, he's going, man, did not know I was hanging out with a future Hall of Favor. Yeah, stud. And they beat us too, though. So you get your degree in criminal justice. You played football. You wanted to be in the NFL. You tried to walk on, I think, to the Cowboys and the Chiefs.

The Chiefs, not the Cowboys gave me a letter. Well, the Raiders, Calv, you know all the. Let me tell you something, man. You know all this stuff. If you play four years of college football and you make a bowl games and you even get trying to be a free agent, you play a little ball. You were bad. Oh, no. I.

At least I didn't think I was bad. Yeah. But just, well, what I discovered, and that's why I tell a child, kids, say, not all of you're going to make, you're not every, you know that, you're not going to get there. But when you get to that level, what I call the cream of the cream, and the, you know, the coach is up in that area. They can say, holy, you're great, but we just want this much. So you like the phone that kind of scrape off.

No, I know. And it's, I mean, I have a friend that has a Super Bowl ring. That got a really good player. and his old school coach used to say more people make into heaven than making the NFL. You better protect this spot. Yes. And now a few messages from our generous sponsors, but first, if you live in the Atlanta or Ozaki County areas, we've still got the launch meetings for your local service clubs coming up Sunday, March 8th.

Check them out in RSVP at ANFAtlanta.org. and A-N-F-A-Z-A-A-O-K-E-E.org. We'll be right back. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun. tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator.

Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Lassie. Lucy Lettby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses.

I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt the case of Lucy Lettby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived in, to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Lettby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is Listen to Doubt the case of Lucy Letby on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside.

This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable.

This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Segregation and the day integration at night. When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules. We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping on another world. Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together.

But not everyone was happy about it. You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and visit Myrtle Beach, comes Charlie's place. A story that was nearly lost to time.

Until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So the NFL's off the table for you. Yeah. Got my degree, though. You made, but you got your degree. And criminal justice. And even though you're at, you take them points, El Paso, this Wichita thing is home.

And I read, I think you wanted to be in the FBI. That didn't work out because you didn't speak another language or something. And you said, you know what? I'm going back home and I'm going to be a cop. Yep. Well, actually the FBI, when I, because I actually applied, I was ready to go to Chronicle and they said, well, do you speak another? The reason why they were, they were recruiting in El Paso, they thought most of the students who were in El Paso spoke Spanish. Hispanics, yeah.

And I'm always taken as a Dominican Republican or, you know, people say like, so you got to speak Spanish. I like, no, I don't speak Spanish. And I can kick myself because I was immersed in El Paso, Texas. All I learned was the cuss words. I can cuss you out pretty good in Spanish. Now, Reverend, let's be careful here. I never knew God that, I knew I had a heart for service, but I never knew the ministry to being a pastor.

It was like youth involvement, helping kids off the streets, erasing tear-drop gang signs. That was my, I was street ministry. And so when they said, the FBI said, hey, we want you. But can you go back, either stay in El Paso and do three years as a police officer or come back home? I'm going back home. I know the streets. I know the, I know those.

So the FBI said if you'll go get some practical experiences of a cop. Because you don't have the language. You can come back and maybe we can. Apply. You got to make pass all the time. So you go home and you're a cop. And I loved it. I was a, you know, I was the first community police officer when it was a big thing in the 90s.

You know, you got the, because it was more proactive. It was not real. Policing for those on notes, the police work is very reactive. You drive around your car and you wait for it and I'll call you, 242. We have so-and-so at so-and-so place in 10-4 and you go. But when community policing came, I was like, oh, I really love this because, they let me go from listen to the radio and being reactive, but I can go and create, like taking a street called ghetto and eradicated.

And I said, why are you putting a street called ghetto in the ghetto? Which I didn't call it a ghetto. I called it the hood because I was trying to explain in Wichita. There is really no ghetto. It's a black neighborhood. But let me go show you what a ghetto is. And from what I've seen in the 70s back east. And this is just a poor black neighborhood.

So as a community police officer, I was able to, you know, bring the city manager out and remove this true street name called ghetto. Now is a walkway with benches from a church into the neighborhood. So that was my kind of neighborhood cleanups going in communities. This is where the housing park came in. It's working with seniors and finding out they live in their house, but they can't fix it. They're real sleek. Don't have the money to fix it. And you saw this as a police officer?

As a police officer. There's a police officer that we're aware of, and he's big in the community policing, but this is what his goal was. Right. His goal was to get invited into the areas he patrolled, the neighborhood he patrolled. First step was get invited in somebody's front yard to have a conversation with them. Yeah. Second step was to get invited on the porch, and the third step was to get invited in their home.

And once you as a police officer had enough trust of the community to get in a, the front yard on the porch and in the home that then you were truly fighting crime because you were you were keeping it from happening in the first place. Do you tell that officer, I like to meet him? That was me. That, I mean, I literally. That's what it feels like. Well, and I put one more step to that, and I bet he could add this on here.

Not only get invited to the home, but then sit at their table with them like this. That's actually what he said was sit in their home and eat. Eat. When you break bread with a family, your family. So were you doing that as a car? Yes. So what happened is, and my police officer, and I love my, and I love police work, don't. But what I happened was as I did that, build that kind of relationship, because it's about relationship, is that even when something went down, I could be 10 miles away.

And I would get a call, Harding, can you go to F1? We call them F1, like private channels. And you go, hey, can you come over here? They won't talk to me. unless you were here. And I get there, we solve a whole crime. But see, that's the deal. Right.

When you, when people see behind the badge and see the human being, and they don't see the uniform first, they see the human being first because you develop a relationship with them. Yes. Now you can, now you can do that work. So how long were you a police officer? I was, oh, I graduated in 91, and I was on until 95. So four years?

Yes. And I didn't, it wasn't that I was. I didn't love police work. It was because I was getting prepared to go to seminary to be United Methodist pastor. Well, see, that's what's weird. How common is it for a cop to become a pastor? And what is that all about? Why?

Because you went to be a cop to go to the FBI. But somewhere in there, you transition saying, I want to be a pastor. So what was that about? So, Bill, my goal was three years. I was going to, I even told the police department, hey, I'm doing this for three years. so I can go be a FBI agent. That's what I thought my goal was, since I didn't make the NFL, I had a degree in criminal justice with abnormal psychology and political science.

And in that process, and my local church, which was at the time St. Mark, United Methodist Church in Wichita. And I remember the pastor said, hey, you're pretty good with the kids, God, particularly young men. Do you want to be a part of our youth pastor ministry? I was part of this of the ministry. It's a lay person. The lay person. And a cop. And while I'm still a police officer and I would come and do that.

And then I was like, by the way, since you're doing such a good job, can you be our youth pastor? So I'm still a cop and I'm part-time youth pastor. I mean, it's when I say part-time, it wasn't about funding. I didn't care about the money. It was just I get to hang out with these kids. And that ministry, the next thing I know I'm sitting there with my wife and rolling for seminary to be a full-time elder in the United Methodist Church. And some of my friends in college go,

Kevethis? Because, you know, I was Mayhem. My nickname was Mayhem. Your nickname was Mayhem. What's the commercial? But to this day, I'm still, my friends are you know. Is it progressive commercial? Yeah.

Is it progressive insurance that the guy's mayhem. That was me on the football field. I used to, you know, you football. You know, remember Rydell and bike back then bike. I said, I say, I'm going to put bike all over your shirt. You're going to know you've been hit. I'm going to tattoo these screws on you.

Listen, I know. I'm old. Your same age. When you could hit people, and that wasn't flag football. Oh, I still feel like I could hit somebody one time. Yeah. Because I break.

Everything on me would fall apart. But that would, that's so, so in that process of transitioning from, from, and I, again, you got to hear this, I love what I did as a police officer, particularly the community policing work, because it allowed me to literally do the stuff I grew up doing with my grandfather, which was construction, particularly with seniors.

That's where my heart was, was how do I help these seniors keep their homes? Because a lot of them were losing homes, because they, like you said earlier, we grew up in the neighborhoods and we become successful and we move away. So you got these parents who still live are like my grandparents. All of my uncles and aunts, including my mom, they all moved out.

None of them live there. Some of them, L.A., Denver. I mean, there's not, I don't have an uncle and aunt from my grandparents' side that actually lives in Wichita are in that neighborhood. They're all somewhere from Los Angeles to Oregon. That, you know. Exactly what Bob was talking about. You make a little money, you have a little success, and you leave. Yes.

But over generations of that, think of what ends up developing once everybody with talent leaves. Yes. And for Wichita, part of what I'm trying to hopefully let people understand is you don't have to leave to be successful. So that's why when I got into the affordable housing part of that was because we're trying to overcome decades of, systemic sin, which we call redlining. We're going to get to that in a minute, but take us through transition from a cop to a pastor full time. Oh, scary for one, because I was like...

Tell us about your drug problem first. Yeah, I already tell people I had a drug problem, not the common drug problem, but I got drugged to church every Sunday. Right. So my mom... It's a great line. My mom, she was, to this day, I mean, if I pulled my phone out, I can probably, she's got something about God. She's telling me, I'm the pastor. She's still, she's still telling me.

You may be the pastor, but you're still a little boy. Oh, man. Her baby boy. Yes. But she, she, she was so faithful and growing us up. And so we had to go to church. It was not, which I tell people all the time, until you get grown, and particularly in my house, you didn't have an option about going to church. You, you went. It wasn't, she didn't come to the, you're, you, you didn't come to the, your bedroom and go, do you want to go to church? You know, and to this day, I still... Get your n-up. We're going to church.

You're going to church. And she would turn her gospel channel on. It was like radio channel, they would turn it on. On the Lord's side. It was a song, I'm on the lower side. I had the same truck problem. So you had the same truck. And you would, so when I'd be asleep, and she would turn that music on, I'd be like, oh, it's time to go to church.

It was so mad. Church was late. When I would get mad. because you had to be at school on through the weekday by 8, 8.30, and here it is. Church went until 11 o'clock. And I'm mad because I got to get up to go somewhere. So anyway, that's how I went from, you know, growing up in church. So I knew God. But I fell in love with Jesus in college and a Christian fellowship association with the guys with the –

FCA. And I said Christian fellowship of Christian athletes. There go. And where we didn't have to be a, you know, because you know, your nickname's mayhem. You're, you know, you're at the bars after the game. And then someone invites you to this. And to this day, I still share that story about this, how I fell in love with Jesus. Was, I was that this preacher, he was, I couldn't even tell you his name.

I said it was a very large church. And he did a story about Jesus following him. And he's Jesus, he promised Jesus that we're. he went. He said, Jesus, wherever I go, I'm going to take you with me. And so Jesus, and he uses this man as this illustration of Jesus is following him. That's why I'm sitting there, this 19-year-old kid and him illustrating the story. And this guy who's Jesus following him, and he's following him all around. He loves it. And then his phone rings is, you know, mega church. The phone rings. And he picks up and says, hey, man, we're having the party. You want to go hang out? He says, sure.

And so Jesus follows and he says, no, Jesus, you have to stay. I'm going to go, you know, hang out with my God. I need some space. But Jesus, but you just told me wherever you go, I go and wherever, you know, vice versa. And then the most powerful thing he did was is when he was really ready to go and he did about three times. He finally took Jesus and stood him still. And he hung him on the cross. And he told him, you stay right here, Jesus, until I get back.

And then he turned around and looked. It's like he was looking right at me, but he's probably looking at all of us. And he was like, how many of us tell Jesus that how much we love him. But as soon as we were ready to go do some dirt, we put him up, we domesticate him, we hide them away. I was like, Lord, I don't ever want to do that. And I didn't know it, but my life changed right there. So I still made him on the football field, but on the streets, I wanted to be Christ. Which was a carpenter's son, hands and feet of Christ, in a community.

Doing what Christ did was building community. So. So, I'm sorry, but it's beautiful. But I was just going to say, so the transition from a police officer to a reverend seems like the groundwork was laid many years before. And I didn't know it. I just thought it was service. I just thought, okay. So when I got into police and the house, my focus was this community.

Any policing would let me do that ministry. But it took me further. We'll be right back. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun. Tells me to lie down on the ground.

He identified Tremaine Hudson as. the perpetrator. Germain was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth, until a confession changed everything.

I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app. podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended.

A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Leppie. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it, to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Lettby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt.

It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary.

hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Segregation and the day, integration at night. When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules. We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping on another world. Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.

You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were dressed up in. their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and visit Myrtle Beach, comes Charlie's place.

A story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's Place on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So you began the ordained ministry in the United Methodist Church in 95, became a deacon in 98. And then you were appointed senior pastor at Del Rose United Methodist Church in Wichita, Kansas. Actually, when I read that, I kind of giggled. Because you hear Del Rose United Methodist Church in Wichita, Kansas, I picture this small community, a cool little church.

No. Turns out, you've been there for over 25 years. And when you showed up, there were about 25 members. Yeah. And now there's 800? Yeah. Well, I always say 800 on paper. I get it.

$250 on a Sunday. Okay. But still. Yeah, we, so I was appointed. I sent, I can't, in the United Method, you're appointed and you're considered itinerary. That's a lesson for me is that I'm in an earth. urban setting and doing such a good job. I was appointed by the bishop to a church to do a transition, which was my first book, Can These Bones Live? Which was when God takes Ezekiel and he sits them down in the valley of these dry bones. Six-seven-21-4 or 67-218 in the hood. And he says, can these bones live? And Ezekiel, which I said to God was, yes, give me a shot. With me having an entrepreneur spirit, not knowing what an entrepreneur meant growing up doing it all my life with my grandfather,

who was my example. And so we took this church that you had two years to turn it around from 98 to 2000. We were going to do like a lot of churches, it's closed it. Because it's a very large church. It was a large facility. Very large. And it was an all-white congregation in an all-white neighborhood. What we called transitional was the neighborhood transition.

So the neighborhood, that's why I said. near northeast because it keeps moving out. So where I grew up, where I'm at now, that I call it the invisible line. Police officers, we call it the invisible line. Most people can still call it that now. I was like, you knew when you cross a certain street, I'm in the hood. That line kept moving to where Delros was inside that circle now. So it transitioned from a large all-white church to an urban church.

Very urban. And when you showed up, there's 25 members. Everybody left. My question is, anybody who pays attention to anything, whether you're a Christian or faithful or not, church membership, church attendance, all of those numbers in the United States have been on a decline. Oh, major. And you're right. And you're almost following the decline that happened in Europe in the early 1900s.

It's very similar. Very, very, very. Very, very similar. Still. Still. So how with that data and those pressures against you, when church membership and church attendance is declining, how have you grown from 25 members to 250 regular attenders

and however many, quote, membership on the rolls? How's that happen? Well, I go back to the former police officer, you're talking about going to the neighborhood and all the way back to the table. still do that, staying connected, building relationships with men in the community. So you went from community policing to community pastoring? Yes, the same model.

Instead of arresting people and dragging them to jail, you're dragging them to a congregation. To an AA meeting and get them off drugs. I'm dragging them to all men's meeting where I sit there and we call it chopping up. I'm part of a, it's called Smokers and Jokers. It's a cigar lounge. I go in there and hang out of all these guys, and I'm just... I want to go. We should have recorded Bill and I are.

I love cigars. Bill and I are both huge cigar fans. He actually has a part-time job at a cigar. That's not true. No, I work on the Army while at a cigar shop at night. We got to go. We got to go and I'm there. Hopefully a Bill comes to Wichita one day.

We can do it, sir. We literally have a, we bought our own storefront and I'll have to show it to you. It's our, it's our, it's our, when you back to the store. You own it? Yes, part of it. You think any other pastor owns a cigar? What's a group of us? It's a co-op.

Hold on all that. It's a co-op. I'm Presbyterian. So everything's okay in moderation in my world. Yeah, everything. Everything. Everything. So, yes, I've smoked cigars of pastures, drink wine with my pastors,

you know, all of that. I don't know how many of them own a cigar shop. That's another level. I don't own it. Well, we own it because it's a club. Yeah, and we all pay $100 a month dues, which takes care of electricity, the water, the trash. I love it.

And that's what we do study. And I don't do like a whole break out the Bible. But I just sit down. Do you have cigar burns on your Bible? No, I have, no. I would absolutely have cigar burns on a Bible. Because you know what's so crazy? This has become the, I mean, we use this.

Everybody does grab. That's right. So I go on there with those guys and we'll just chop it up. How are you doing with your kids? Fathering. So you grew your church. What I find interesting is you grew this church. Let's be honest.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like this is an area where it suffered extreme white flight. Yes. And when that happens, and like you say, the hood expands and the white flight happens and the white flight happens, it creates these abysses. And you could see that maybe in the 60s and 70s. and 80s, this church grew and grew and grew and grew up. It was, yeah. And then as the hood expanded, the congregation left. And the neighborhood changed.

And it has to be repopulated or shut down. Exactly. And you repopulated it. Oh, man. The same thing as a pastor that you did as a police officer, which is community. Community pastoring. Yes. Which I'm making that up.

Well, that's what, to me, that's a real phrase. I like, no, I think if it's not a real phrase, it should be, because I think every pastor should be. in the community. Beyond the four walls of church. Church, churches were not meant for us to build them. You know, I love the movie. You know, Build it and they shall come to fill the dreams. No, no, no.

Churches, we did the same thing, building these big mega churches. I love nothing against mega churches. But that's the thing of, I call it the 90s in 2000s. You have a pocket of those. But your neighborhood, we're considered a neighborhood church, local church. So you're looking at two zip codes that I work with,

and particularly 67214, 67208, is that be the hands and feet of Christ in that community. So we went, you know, providing community development through home ownership programs, financial literacy class, men, ministry, women's, men, youth. But it doesn't have to be in the church in that building, although we have a lot of stuff there, but it's constantly outward looking, very missional driven.

How do we make a difference? How do we, from the simple little thing is a blessing box that can't stay full because we fill it in this empty because the homeless population. And how do we take those people and get them into transitional housing off, you know, literally sleeping around the church? My mom always said, don't confuse that building with a steeple. I said, what do you mean? She said, that's not a church. So that's a church building. She said, you can have a church on the field somewhere.

We are the church. It's the people in it. It's the church. We are the church. And that's what you're saying. Yes. For the church to be active, it has to get out of its building and get into the community. Yeah, beyond the four walls of the church.

There's actually two lines I love that relate to this. So I think it's MLK who said, church is not a place you go to, but a place you go from. Yep. And then one of our guests, I feel like it was Rhonda Paulson with Isaiah 117 House, but she said, like, so many of these church programs, like, they'll have their little ice cream social and, like, think about people who are, like, having trouble in their lives right now. You think they want to, like, come with all these pretty white people who got all their shit together and, like, have this really nice clothes. Like, that's the last place they want to be. They want to be, like, actually where you can help them in their need. Yeah.

That's the greatest way to grow the church. And I'll preach like this or without this jacket. I haven't had a robe on it forever because folks in that neighborhood needs to know that I'm not coming out there with this big religious, you know, thus says the Lord. But hey, this is what I'm talking down to him. You're talking with them. No, I'm telling, I'm telling on me half the time. My wife hates it. Well, he got to tell all your business.

They put all your business on the street. Yeah. But that lets people know you're relating to them. And like, I like what you said. It's, you know. Not the place you go to. Well, okay, Bill, you like this. Sunday, particularly, I'm used Sunday. To me, it's half-time. Hmm. You know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday is because Bible study is kind of like that, you know, we're practicing.

And now, like you said, so Sunday, I'm bringing everybody into the locker room. That was a good week last week. Some of us got beat up. You fell over here, over here. And we're going and then we'll practice this through next week through the class. And then after I get through a Sunday, like you said, now let us go back out. That's what the whole lights mean. And so when you see, as they say, the Methodist Church are even Catholic when they bring the kids, bring the lights. So the light is representative of Christ that you bring it, you're bringing the light from out of the world into a place of worship where you can worship and assemble together to empower and to encourage halftime. hey, don't forget. It's what we got to go do when we go back out there.

And then when we finish worship, you take that same life. If you remember that, you take that same light, and you take it out. So I tell people, the light is a representation of it. We come to worship. That's why I hate it. People call church service. No, that's not service. Church is worship.

Particularly Sundays is about worship, where you come to give God praise that got you through the week. Then once you finish worship half time, now let's go back out and be the, be the light of Jesus Christ in this dark world. And you send them back out. And then I try to say, instead of me just preaching from this pulpit, now I'm going to show you because I'm going to do it too. And that concludes part one of our conversation with Kevin Harding,

and you don't want to miss part two. It's now available to listen to. Together, guys, we can change this country. But it starts with you. I'll see in part two. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime.

The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt. the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 23. But what if we didn't get the whole story? Evidence has been made to fit. The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed.

What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to doubt the case of Lucy Letby on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets.

Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Ford, Fitzgerald had his own rules. Segregation and the day integration at night. It was like stepping on another world. Was he a businessman? A criminal. A hero.

Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush you. Charlie's Place, from Atlas Obscura and visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's Place on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed

Human.