An Army of Normal Folks - Todd Cioffi: An Army of Normal Prisoners (Pt 2)

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

Todd is the founding director of Calvin Prison Initiative, an accredited bachelor degree program that’s inside of a prison. And one that’s not only transformed their students’ lives, but most fascinating is how it’s cultivated An Army of Normal Prisoners who've completely transformed the culture inside of Michigan’s prisons! Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an Army of Normal Folks, and we continue now with part two of Alex's conversation with Todd Choffee, right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Experiencing the news each day can feel like a journey. With Up First from NPR though, it doesn't have to be. Welcome to 15 easy minutes of breaking news, clarity on international and national affairs, and a casual tone that you can take in with breakfast. Begin your day informed, ready, and refreshed.

Begin your day with Up First. Subscribe to Up First from NPR on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Now what happened is the political winds changed. So well over a decade ago the US Supreme Court ruled that states cannot sentence a juvenile as identified by someone as 17 or younger to a natural life sentence. They literally have to show that the person that you could not rehabilitate the person. So they told the states they have to go back and review all their non-proble life juveniles and see if they can re-sentence them to term of years. So that's what they started doing and all of a sudden some of our guys started getting out. So instead of a license, all of a sudden they got maybe a 40 to 60 year sentence. They maybe had 28, 30 in.

And that if you came into prison before 2000, you could earn good time credits. They could earn up to eight to 10 years of good time that would get applied and they'd meet the 40. So now we've had 19. We just had a guy get out a month ago who was sentenced natural life at 18. They now move the age up to 18. Michigan's thinking of moving up to 20. He just got to move it up to what? 25, 26. So there's good science behind it. 20-25 26 for the brain. Yes, so there's good science behind it But this guy committed his crime at 18. He did just almost 35 years. He's 53 Got out. He used to be a white supremacist very violent thought his life was over when he got to prison He said I'm gonna die here. What do I care?

converted to Christianity Now he's enrolled at Calvin Seminary and eventually is is going to do a PhD in theology and teach for Calvin prison initiative. Really? Yes. So it doesn't get any better than that. There's a bunch of things you said I want to follow up on. One of the states saying we don't want to invest in people in life sentences reminds me of I once interviewed a guy who had a great line saying you're standing too close to the bottom line. Oh, wow. And there's a great argument for taxpayers like, yeah, why are we going to spend limited taxpayer dollars on this?

Right. It doesn't make any sense. And that's standing too close to the bottom line. And it is if we do invest in their lives, you know, what does that do inside of the prison and the recidivism rate? Yes, you kind of talk about I can yeah, so Most of the talk years ago is all about recidivism rates when a guy gets out how many come back within three to five years and The recidivism rates in the country, especially ten years ago when we were easily 65 percent So the guy would literally go back to prison within three years 65% of the time. And then they have rates for okay, it doesn't go back to prison, but he gets thrown in jail for a month. Or he gets picked up by the police

or whatever. And it was just so what we knew is this it wasn't working. Whatever we were trying to do wasn't working. Because they're all coming back basically. Now here's what you don't also know though. Are some prisons violent? Absolutely. Absolutely. What's the cost of that? So if a prisoner harms an officer and that officer has to go to the hospital or stay in the hospital, what's the cost? Not just what the cost physically, now what's it emotionally?

Or harms another prisoner or another prisoner then gets out and is messed up. Yes, and then recidivates. Exactly. So we're not looking at it at a finer level. But if you do you realize it's in everybody's best interest to give something positive to do, become more humane, good neighbors with one another. And you start saving money big time. The less violent a prison is, the cheaper it is. So now to invest in a lifer, you

are saving money in the same way that you're concerned about recidivism rates. And believe it or not, that lifer now is your ally and helping to make sure this guy doesn't come back. No lifer wants to see guys come back. They get it. They've thrown life. It's like don't come back. And so the Rand Corporation, which is a non partisan think tank that looks at issues, social problems, and tries to develop public policy issues are policies for

politicians and others. They did a meta study almost 15 years ago now maybe a little longer and they showed for every dollar spent on higher end prisons you save four to five dollars in incarceration costs. I wouldn't be surprised if it's higher for you guys given how much your program is. Right. So all of a sudden at one level an economic level, it doesn't matter what you think about prisoners. To invest in these types of programs is smart money, smart taxpayer dollars.

Now that's what Michigan's doing. So since we started our program, Michigan has changed their mind about lifers. So now every time a college or university wants to start a higher program in prison, the Michigan Department of Corrections says you have to take a certain percentage of lifers. So now every time a college university wants to start a higher program in prison, the Michigan Department of Corrections says you have to take a certain percentage of lifers. And you know, I honestly think it's because we were doing that and they saw the positive results. So now it's kind of built into the thing. We're very excited about that. What are the things I love about your model? If you can explain it, like the process to get into the program and the fact that these people are coming from prisons across the

state and then often going back. So could you explain that and how the students are chosen? So what we thought is what we really want, we're not so concerned about academic performance. Because as an educator, we realize we can do that. So if a guy doesn't write very well, we can get them up to speed in a couple years. What we need are men who want to be a part of something new and different and change. That's what we have to identify. Now we're a Christian program. So yeah, we're gonna get a lot of

Christians students, but we get Muslim Christian program, so yeah, we're gonna get a lot of Christian students. We get Muslim, Buddhist, Native American, we get everything. So why would they want to take it? Because they realize that we don't lead per se with the Christian flag. We rather say we're Christian University committed to the common good even in prison. We're committed to your Humanity and being more and more human all the time and we want to see you use your life. Well, oh By the way, we're Christian and yeah, you're gonna take theology courses in Bible. But again, we're gonna do it in a way that we hope isn't exclusionary

So they get attracted by that now initially what attracted them is we said lifers are welcome and A lot of these guys said I've never seen a flyer in prison that says that What's going on here? so They would come in and We would look for others who have worked with them to help identify passion desire commitment Chaplains wardens, maybe

officers. We'd have them do some proctored essays, and we'd ask them certain questions that we think are trying to get at this. We'd get them in and the academic stuff we could work on. That usually takes about two years to get a guy fully up to speed. Then after five years in the program, upon graduation, we formed teams of guys, eight to 10 guys. And they're all prepared to work in ministry, academics, and peer mentoring. Then we send them out to another prison, another facility, to work with that administration to say, these are agents of change. Here's what these guys can do. Use them that way.

And it's a got to the point where the wardens of those other prisons are like really behind these guys and excited and yes. So we had a sister college, Hope College in Holland want to start a prison program because they thought the Calvin thing was cool. We helped them get that going in a prison in Muskegon, Michigan. And we said, how about if we send a team out to you guys to help you get your program going? And we sent, I think, nine guys out there. And the warden was very hesitant, because he didn't really know what it was. He's like, what are we doing? Do I want this? After a couple years, I talked to him and he said, your are amazing send as many as you possibly can to me

He goes I've never seen anything like it. They are truly selfless. They give they want to see others succeed And he said I need that and then he becomes the voice now for another warden So we can go to other warden say hey, you know him. Yep. Yep Listen what he has to say about this. So we have teams out at four prisons right now. If you want to change the culture in a prison, it's probably much more likely to happen from the prisoners than from 100%

because there's this huge animosity engulf between us them. I understand that I get it, you know, that officers are leery of prisoners and prisoners are leery of the administration officers and It's partly why that's because of how we've done incarceration this country for decades other countries always have that So in our situation absolutely prisoner prisoners way to go Is I know I keep saying guys is are these in any female prisons yet? So when we started Michigan, I think had 31 or 32 prisons, and we're down to I think 26. So the good news is that we're depopulating those prisons. And we're not seeing as many people come back. Michigan has recidivism right now at about 20 or 22%. I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, it's pretty good. Like, how is that possibly the case? Yeah, it's pretty good. I've never heard of a state being that low. No. it's because all these programs don't I'm absolutely convinced of that like I mean, obviously you guys are a big part of it

But are there other programs in the state too that yes, so what happened is we wreck I think the Department of Corrections recognized That the main concern cannot simply be custody. That's what they call it custody order safety sure You got to have that But if all you're making sure is that guys don't harm another person, and that they go from where they need to be a to b. What's that? So they began to look at who's a good prisoner, someone who doesn't get in trouble. That's a negative way to see it. I said, Well, how

about you see a good prisoner as someone who's doing good things and begin to track that. so they've ramped up their programming and Now when we started there was just two schools Doing education a community college in Jackson, Michigan and then us who were doing a BA now we have 12 With about eight or nine started and the rest will be online in the fall so this is having a huge impact on these prisons. And then that trickles out to the main population often. And so that's why we're starting to see recidivism rates, I

think lowered within 10 years. Now, that's all to say the women's prison. There's one. Just to put a point out of two, that's a third of the national average. Yes, and the national average is still around 60. It is. It is.

So Michigan really is leading the way right now. I think it's because politicians, the people who work in the Department of Corrections, and then these outside groups, all thing that on the same page, I think Bill would probably say to you if you were here is it took an army of normal folks to to get us there, right? It's taking us to push them and they see it and like, all right, let's roll. This is honestly, that's exactly the way it was. There are a lot

of nonprofit grassroots groups in Michigan that I discovered all these years. And I think they put a lot of pressure we I I've probably testified in Lansing before state legislators now handful of maybe five, six times. But when you go do that, you realize there's all sorts of folks testifying. Yeah. Like somebody who's just run this little nonprofits there like say, Hey, and it's made a believer out of me that that you can change stuff.

You really can. We'll be right back. Experiencing the news each day can feel like a journey. With Up First from NPR though, it doesn't have to be. Welcome to 15 easy minutes of breaking news, clarity on international and national affairs, and a casual tone that you can take in with breakfast. Begin your day informed, ready and refreshed. Begin your day with Up First. Subscribe to Up First from NPR on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Now the women's prison, that was the last thing that we wanted. There's one women's prison in Michigan, it's in Ypsilanti, Michigan outside Detroit, by Ann Arbor. They call it tipsy ipsy. Actually managed a rock band in high school. There you go. Well, there's a prison there too. You can play there. And we were being asked

by our donors constantly. What about the women? What about the women? We said, well, gee, we would do something, but it's a good two and a half hour drive. How do we do this? So a couple years ago, Eastern Michigan University said, All right, we'll do it. We're gonna offer a BA there. So we actually worked with them and Now they've started and they're running women through And I think allowed their first BA graduates in about a year

Now that's tremendous because literally this is true of every state when we think of incarceration we think of men and we don't think of women and all the resources tend to go to the men and the women often get the crumbs. And yet what's interesting is that when you go to a women's facility, a prison, that prison they're in was designed for 1200 inmates. They probably have 1700 in there. One prison, that means they have to have all the security levels in one prison. So you're working already in an isolated environment. That's now segregated and So to do prison time for a woman's really hard Now what's interesting about a women's prison on the whole they tend not to be very violent

So there's opportunities there to do different things Without the worry about the violence part. So in some ways, it's fertile ground for all sorts of programs. So Michigan also started what they call vocational village. They started it at our prison when we started, and that's in the trades, so carpentry, automotive, whatever, but they did a second vocational village

for a men's facility in Jackson, Michigan. And the third one was for the women's facility. So in terms of Michigan putting significant resources, because to start a vocational village cost millions of dollars startup, they finally emphasize the women's prison. And as we all know who do this, they're having good results. And we kind of need people in the trades

The country's kind of got a problem And so there's a huge employment office that department has and they have well over a 90% placement record. That's amazing Yeah So I just look at it this way those of us who have kids We know what kind of works eventually is like you got to prep them for something College trades what I mean, you know you work at this and you build it and do them that hey you you can have a career you can have a Decent lifestyle

Why aren't we doing that more in these places? It's no different. A lot of these people didn't have that when they were in high school. And so they're eager for it now and it works. How to go back to Acton Academy again, but one of my favorite things they base it on, there's three things they're trying to achieve with their students. Learn to learn, you learn how to learn.

You learn to do, how to master something, which the trades is and you learn to be. What is life all about? The combination of your guys in program with the vocational? yes touching out all those and and when you think about it's all very basic and You know parents who care about their kids having a successful life. That's what they do And so I guess I don't know I when we started this I thought you know mass incarceration I don't know. I when we started this I thought you know mass incarceration Huge problem our society expensive tell tell us a little bit more in your January series talk You go through a long riff about the over incarceration in the country

Yeah So we we can we can kind of track these things starting in the 70s that it became politically fashionable To talk about a war on crime war on drugs, right? It's just after the 60s And so the country was reeling yet from this whole drug issue and then Richard Nixon actually helped pinpoint it in urban areas and that began to target African American communities and So in our society we began to you know put together Oh war on drugs African Americans that's a lot of the problem here in crime even though we know

That per capita white people tend to use drugs way more than African-Americans Then they started doing tougher sentences on certain types of drugs So now we know that if you smoke crack cocaine you got a stiffer sentence than if you use powder cocaine Powder cocaine was often used by white males, crack cocaine by black men. So you see this ramp up in the 80s and it really hits a point under the Clinton administration when we talk about these super predators, that language that he used to describe these violent juveniles. And what we realize, the idea was that people are getting more violent Actually, if you look at the research on that right now now, they're showing it wasn't that people are more violent What happened is there was more of an influx of guns?

and so if I tend if I'm gonna hit you in the face, let's say It's an act of violence Now if you put a gun in my hand, I shoot you But the violent act is the same. It's just the means by which I execute it. It's funny hearing some people we've interviewed, they'll be like, these gangs are a bunch of wussies. They're just like using guns like they're not getting in real fights. No. And

so what you see is that the so called the uptick in violence, it makes it sound like more and more people are getting more and more violent. It's actually due to the gun. So the rate of who's violent and how often stayed relatively the same. It's just they have a different means by which to do it, which means the outcome is graver. Can you talk about if you had the numbers on the top of your head the scale of incarceration here versus elsewhere? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the US incarcerates per capita, more than any other country in the world. So for instance, at one

point, we were incarcerating one out of every 1000 citizens where you have places like England, maybe low 100s, Italy low 100s. The only country that begins to really compete with us are countries like Russia, China. What does that tell you? Well, unless that we don't want to be on. So for instance, frankly speaking, that's 3 million Americans. Yes, right. And in Michigan, for instance, we peaked in 2008 with 52,000 prisoners locked up for a state that has roughly a million people

Now we've dropped back in the 70s We incarcerated literally a couple thousand and So even that you see like for instance the facility where the prison where we are It was built as a vocational prison for training one person per cell now it's two per cell and So all of a sudden they literally were incarcerating so many people we didn't even have the ability to house them well At our facility what's called the day room in a housing unit It can usually hold about 40 guys at tables. They watch TV. They do whatever they were using at one time as a dormitory and

Putting 40 guys does live there And they had to put up bunk beds and everything Now the you are in Michigan. We've dropped down to about 32,000 Right now so every state had these huge massive peaks So if you look at Texas, California well into the 70 80 thousands It's actually 300,000. I did the math wrong on that. Yeah But you know, I don't think people really what we did is we created a frenzy We we created a narrative and we We created a narrative. And we for

some people that worked politically. You know, think of them when George H. Bush ran and do caucus and the Willie Horton issue. It worked. All they do is say one guy got out and murdered somebody. And he wants that guy out. And boom, they people are saying that's what sank his candidacy. One of my favorite lines that a politician said I'm not gonna say Who it is just to get people on the other side not pissed off Yeah, yeah sure said but this he had a really good line of we need to have a difference of people who were actually dangerous

And people were really really mad at We ended up incarcerating a lot of people that were really really mad at. Do like so for instance, at the federal level, it's just over 50% of most people in federal prisons are there for drug crimes, nonviolent drug crimes. And so if you think is that the best way to handle that now we thought so years ago in the 80s and 90s. Today, if you look at the opioid epidemic, now we're treating as a health care issue, which rightly so. And so we're saying, if

I've got a drug addict, what is incarcerated this person going to do? Because what we don't realize is there's every drug you can find in a prison. Let's talk about Yeah, I mean, it doesn't solve the problem at all. It takes them off the street, but it's still criminal activity going on. Because somebody smuggle that in. It's coming off the street. You know what I mean? it's not working I mean, I think people have heard the drug stories. It shocked me as someone once told me they were actually brewing beer inside for prison I'm like this place is so lawless that they're running a brewery Absolutely called spud juice

Let's talk about some of the programs that your students have started. Oh, yeah. And I mean, it probably gets to some other personal stories that I'm sure folks would love hearing. Yeah. So we knew in any good setting where you're encouraging people to think, to be critical, to consider what your're calling is that People are gonna come up with things that you didn't think of and that's what you want as an educator at a college

I want my students to go out and be creative and that was happening in prisons in our prison And so a lot of guys said, you know The vast vast majority of people who are incarcerated have some form of mental health issue. If they came to prison with it, if they didn't come with it, they got it now. And when we depopulated our mental health institutions in the 80s, sending a lot of these people out on the streets, eventually they got locked up. So for instance, at our facility of about almost 1300 prisoners, one third are in significant mental health treatment programs. A lot of our guys, I would say, we need to do something about that. What can we do now? Again, we had the social work. And so we got a lot of our social work

profs to say, Okay, what would it mean to train our guys to be peer mentors for mental health? What would that look like? So we worked with some of the mental health staff at the prison. We worked with mental health staff in Lansing, Michigan, our profs, we literally all sat down at table and we came up with a proposal. It got accepted by the director of the Department of Corrections and then we moved several of our guys into the mental health unit one of the mental health units and They began to work with guys helping with hygiene being more social being more physically active. They'd play cards with them Eventually that led to hey have you ever thought about doing your GED?

Well, I was told I'm dumb on this and that I can't read. Well, let me work with you. So we actually have a guy who is able not only to finish his GED in prison in the mental health unit. Now he's been accepted into the Calvin program. And he said my whole life I've been told I'm dumb. Now he finished his very first semester with about a B plus average. So he's not dumb. But that came from people who said that are young. Yeah, right. But that came from our graduates, who said we can recognize what's going on here. We live it. We

know how to address it. Again, john Perkins, I'm your neighbor, and I'm gonna I'm gonna observe what you need. So now I just had one of the healthcare workers in that unit tell me if you plucked all of the eight Calvin grads out of this unit, most of our programs we wouldn't be able to run. They become such a vital part of our programming. We trust them. It's like having a whole new army of staff that we can't afford. Right. We'll be right back. Experiencing the news each day can feel like a journey. With Up First from NPR though, it doesn't have to be. Welcome to 15 easy minutes of breaking news, clarity on international and national affairs,

and a casual tone that you can take in with breakfast. Begin your day informed, ready, and refreshed. Begin your day with Up First. Subscribe to Up First from NPR on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. We are now we've had several years we've had about three, three and a half years of success with this effort. And we're about ready to put it on the road and send out a group of guys who are trained in mental health peer mentoring to work

at other facilities. We're going to actually start training them as well now in probably the next I think, January, well, January now we're in January. I think this spring trauma-informed Mental health care and we working with some organ outside organizations nonprofits. Have you run in a given hour? I have not okay I'm happy to introduce you to them if you So we interviewed them on the podcast and they actually started of helping Post 9-eleven veterans. Oh sure You know the same this been true with the FDNY after 9-11,

where they're afraid to go to the military counselors. Yes. They basically get that scarlet letter. Yes. In their record, which would, they think, you know, often, some of it's probably reality and some of it's perception. Exactly. They wouldn't allow them to serve.

And so they basically had a, you know, a nonprofit. Yep. Provide the service for them. And then they kind of realized, look, there's not enough counselors in the country out there to solve the mental health crisis. And if you just see my town at Oxford, too, like these counselors are booked up for months like. Yes. And so they've eventually started this peer support model.

Yes. They're trying to now scale that across the country. So they're training people. That's exactly what I do. Peer support groups. And that's exactly what you know, the thing with the vets, it happens in prison. If I'm a prisoner, and I go to a counselor, I don't want to get marked as such. Because then the department treats you differently, they often

over medicate you. And so they'll often call it about the med shuffle. When they get over medicated, these guys can barely walk, so they just shuffle around. And you see it all the time. And so the perception again, partly real, probably partly not, is that what I can tell them I have a problem. Because now I get stigmatized, and they'll want to medicate me. Now, if it's a prisoner to prisoner, totally different. Yeah. Hey, brother,

I know what you're going through. Come on, we can do this together. And if eventually you need meds, well then it'll be the right time. So they're having way better results than the professionals. So we also sent several guys now to the veterans unit at a Saginaw prison. And we're eventually gonna do

trauma informed preparation for them with veterans. And that came up because we have several veterans in our program Who said I didn't know what was going on when I got out. I have one guy. He was a physician's assistant He does think three rounds of active duty And he said I came out and I had PTSD and I wasn't fully aware of it and I went crazy And I just I just my whole life flew apart and now now I'm looking at 20 years sentence. And he said, if only someone could have intervened, or I would have known enough to have someone intervene. So he has a real passion now to work

with vets were locked up. And we're just kind of letting it all grow organically. You know, I literally teach, Todd came up with all these no, no, so that's what's beautiful. So I teach an internship course in their fifth year, their final year in the fall. And their final project is, what are we missing? Tell me what we're missing. I can talk about vocation, I can talk about john Calvin, I can talk about what we've done. Some things

work, some didn't, we can do that. but you know, you're the ones who live here I got proximity tell me what we're missing and then they write up a proposal from it's part of their last project and Then I say now you got to write up something that you think could actually work. Don't give me a huge pipe dream Let's think about if you had maybe in a year or two What would you want to implement and then I keep a portfolio of that in a guy's two, what would you want to implement? And then I keep a portfolio of that in a guy's file. If we send them out to other facilities, I make sure the warden say, Hey, guess what? These guys got some really good ideas. Work with them for a few years, you'll see what they can do. And then you're going to go back and

say, Hey, what was that idea? Because I've got needs that I can't fund. These prisons are working on shoestring budgets and So this is like literally giving them free staff The most a guy can make with a college degree in prison is three dollars and 33 cents a day Right and it's sad but in this case it works in our favor because it costs the state virtually nothing Just an army of normal prisoners. I'm not kidding. That's exactly what it is.

Tell us about the restorative justice conference, the garden, lots of love. Yeah. I mean, did you have my wheels spinning that like we should do a special series? If I don't know if we get interview each of these guys, but that could be. You could. Pretty cool to do do so there is a student in our very first cohort so he started ten years ago and after about a year interestingly enough he's Roman Catholic okay and he said I'm part of an organization on the outside Roman Catholic organization and they do a lot of work in restorative justice I said okay OK, I think that's how we need to think about what we're doing.

And we need to create more resources around restorative justice. So can you explain what it is? Because I'll be honest, we try to actually avoid politics on the show. Yeah. But people who are pretty well aware, there's a certain segment of the population that uses that and it's got in a bad route. Frankly, they've probably taken it too far. Or a lot lot of them are hey, we don't believe in any place Yeah, like and that there's a certain crowd that's promoting social, you know restorative justice who also believes that no police Yeah, and only social workers, but no, I mean the actual truest form from some other stories I've told can be really beautiful. So without a doubt so in its basic form

You have different types of justice that goes all the way back to Greek philosophers okay, and one form of justice is retributive justice and that's where you punish and So a lot of folks would say well, that's kind of what we're doing in our prisons And you know you could make a case that there is a certain form of retributive justice that in fact is just Now it's not the only type of justice there could be distributive justice right was it that I'm owed what what does someone owe me or what does the government owe me distributive justice so there's different forms one of them now that people are talking about

more and more is restorative justice and this basically says this a harm was done what can we do to try to repair the harm how can we restore what was taken and there's usually we talk about it in three different ways there's the perpetrator and then there's a victim all right the victim has needs what do we do to help restore the victim to the best we can knowing Knowing that in some cases will never be able to restore the victim, but we can work in that direction a Perpetrator let's use mail when I create a harm in some sense. I'm harming myself even I'm not living up to what it means to be human I'm misusing maybe my gifts or my skills And so what

would it mean to restore that person as well? To say, you know, you can't do that you're you actually harmed yourself. So what do you need to do different and be different to do? Then there's the community. So when a harm is done, it's never just between two people. There are communities involved where it's families, whatever the case may be. So restorative justice says we have to take into account all three of those agents, if you will, and ask what does each one need to better be restored. So what I

like about restorative justice, I think for some people, and maybe some folks, you know, misdescribe this, they think it's all about just the perpetrator. Now, we all everything the perpetrator. No, this is about the victim. I mean, unfortunately in our system right now, when the court gavel is thrown down and court's over. Don't bang the table, Todd.

We talked about this. When the court gavel is thrown down, and courts over, the idea is that justice has been done for the victim and or victims families or whatever. But notice, we never talk to them again. We don't talk about the ongoing emotional trauma that it's caused. We don't talk about the loss. We don't ever give resources about now what? Actually, we put more emphasis on the perpetrator because the perpetrator goes to prison. I'm actually It's kind of bizarre and it's not a serious victim case, but I'm actually the victim in a case right now of Somebody showed up in my office and physically threatened me. Yeah, and the court like hasn't I probably shouldn't say this given It's an active case, but I will because I don't care and they like they don't really keep

Me updated. I have to call them right and ask for updates and this guy asked for an extension the continuance Yes for kind of a nonsense reason and like I never got to like argue why it shouldn't happen The hearing with the judge on that happened without me. There's a lot of serious victims rights issues Oh, and we put way more emphasis on the perpetrator of serious victims rights issues. And we put way more emphasis on the perpetrator. Perpetrator can appeal the case, do all this, they have rights, right? They're given more attention

than the victim and or victims families. And restorative justice wants to correct that actually. And the community, we never talk about the harm of the community. If I'm in a gang and I'm shooting another guy in a gang and we're shooting down the street, who's been traumatized without dare to go out the house anymore? Or what parents saying I'm not

letting my kids out. We never think fully about what that means to them and how they've been harmed by this. So I think restorative justice is actually a more robust way of talking about justice, about there are several multiple people involved in these things what what can we do to help restore all right let's get on to the conference so this student said I want to have a restorative justice conference and he told that to this organization's Catholic organization outside and the

director of that organization said that's's a great idea. You run it. And he was kind of one kind of locked up. And he said, I don't have time. I mean, I support it, but you run it. So he did. He made all the contacts, he got the speakers lined up. He got the venue. He did all the work. And I mean, give credit to that college too. Yeah, I mean, to trust. Yeah, a lot of people wouldn't want to trust a prisoner to do it. they would know implement it themselves Right, right. And so

Normally that nonprofit would hold a yearly conference to get about 50 people this one we did at Hope College and It drew 350 people and that was the impetus for the Hope College folks to get interested in a program That's what did it we were able to tape because they happen to be there. Yes. They're like, what is this? Who butterfly effect of these things? And then they said, who did this? We said, Oh, guys locked up. Like what? This isn't the same guy who was forgiven by no to different guy. This guy actually

won a national award from a restorative justice org out in California, we had to send somebody to go get the trophy. They said, Can you come on here? Like, Nah, I can't do that. We send somebody else. But that sparked, I think we did the justice conf restorative justice four years then. And it's now picking back up after COVID. And he's been a huge champion of restorative justice on the inside, he started a club, all these sorts of things. Is he able to get out for enjoying the conference in

person? Or is it virtually all virtual? Okay. Initially, we did a taping. And now we can probably do live stream they're allowing us. And what we're finding now is that that is sparking creativity among our students to say, All right, I've harmed. What do I have to do to help repair that harm? And that's when some guys years ago said, You know what, we've a lot of us have been pretty violent against women. What do we do? We would like to

grow vegetables and donate the vegetables to organizations that work with abused women. And we're like, okay. Great idea. So yeah, so so they started donation garden to say, how do we give back? they they they have limited Opportunities and resources, but this is what they could do that sparked a lot of thinking on their parts. They often want to make cards sympathy cards for people they often they believe or not a lot of prisoners knit in crochet and there's

There's a crochet club they're not making the other guys not doing it are making fun of them for the well you go into the room and there's all These guys in there with all their tattoos and everything else and they're literally all crocheting and talking And they would donate scarves mittens to like children's Non-profit children's things they would be looking for ways to give back in a in a way that says I'm sorry I'm sorry If I could do it over I would but I can't but I've made they can do this and So in some ways in our minds, it might be a very small gesture of vegetable But there It's a big deal. Well, that's one of the things we're trying to break with an army of normal folks

Yes, if there are millions of us doing small things. Yep. It's a different country. Well, and because in prison, it's an environment of scarcity. And so what that does is it creates in some ways greediness. And so if I can take I will, because I may never get another chance. And so a lot of guys, if they grew vegetables, they would want to keep it all because especially the food's not great.

And so for a guy to say, I'm willing to work hard all summer, I'm willing to do this and give it all away is just not the culture there. You just don't do that. We'll be right back. Experiencing the news each day can feel like a journey. With Up First from NPR though, it doesn't have to be. Welcome to 15 easy minutes of breaking news, clarity on international and national affairs, and a casual tone that you can take in with breakfast. Begin your day informed, ready, and breakfast. Begin your day informed, ready and refreshed.

Begin your day with Up First. Subscribe to Up First from NPR on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Actions against policy for a prisoner to give something to another prisoner. However, our students create care packages for incoming students. So when we have a new cohort of freshmen, they greet them all and they say, here's a care package. It'll have snacks and a toothbrush and everything that they normally would have to buy in the prison and These students are just dumbfounded. They're like I just had a guy tell me because I've been locked up 30 years

And he said I got my care package and I just didn't know what to think or do a stunned because nobody's done that ever for me. But they're doing it as a way before prison to his bill about a lot like a lot of the you know, when he was coaching him and asked like a lot of these young men have never experienced a hug before. Yes, that. Yes. I kind of love from anybody. Yes. And so I think it's a way for our students to say, there's been a lot taken from a lot taken

from a lot of people. How do we begin to address that? And so to us, it might be not, you know, wow, what we do a toothbrush there. That stuff you got to pay for. And if you're only making at best $3.33 a day. And you know, you have to buy hygiene stuff. That's taking up a lot of your money it's important to stress to you I mean a small thing like that can really change someone's life without a doubt like there's a guy Bill and I know who put himself in a foster care at age 14 interestingly he's got a billion dollar company oh he gives a hundred percent of the profits away to charity

wow you kind of made you figured I made enough money. I don't need to make any more someone challenged him. Where's your financial finish line in life? He's like, all right, I met it. There it is some of the profits from now on our gods. See, it's a but like when he was a kid, yes, actually before he got I think it was an orphanage at this point. A guy gave him $100 bill. Yeah, right. He's alone there at Christmas. In the orphanage, like a lot of the other kids would still go to

like distant relatives for Christmas. He's like one of the only kids there. And this guy like slips, you know, a card with $100 bill and yeah, to a stranger saying I love you. I love you. And it's just like he to this day, if you ask him to tell the story breaks down. Yes, I mean, it's so $100 or a care package. I mean, right, really can change the trajectory of somebody You know what? I believe that 100% after watching these guys almost a decade now It because again a prison is is an environment scarcity. It can only be simple things

That's all they've got and so when I watch that happen, I'm thinking my word, we've got so much stuff. And we're kind of jaded to it all. I'm just like, gift card again, for whatever whoopie. Well, they had a guy, he found a vending card for a vending machine had $20 on it. Okay. Now again in prison, if you found $20, you're rich. That's a lot of money on a card. He said normally in prison, you find the vending card, you grab it and you run. And now good for you, you got 20 bucks. He went back to my cell and sat on my bunk and I couldn't live with myself. I can't do I can't just keep this. And he said, after being this Calvin program, I started to think what do I do? What do I

do? He said, Well, I decided to think, what would Plato do? Or what would Jesus do? And he said, I had to give it back. So he goes, I went to the guy. And I said, you dropped your vending card. He goes, Oh, I know I lost it. And he goes, here. And he goes, Why are you giving this back to me? You don't do that. He said, I have to. I mean, 20 bucks. But to them, it's everything. And again, it's so countercultural. I two guys, and sometimes it comes back to you, didn't the

guy buy him a pop or something? Yes. And I had two guys who were overpaid on their check from the facility for their job. They went to the classification person who oversees that and said you overpaid me. You have to take it. And she like what she was I've done this for almost 30 years. I've never had that. It's time to release that man from prison. Yeah, it is. If you reach that stage, I mean, that tells you. I could talk about your programs forever, but let's move to the person, the victim's mother who reached out to them.

Right. So, we got a guy in our program and he's a person of vibrant Christian faith. And we were excited to have him in the program. He was doing well. And I'd say after a couple of years in the program, he came to me one day and said, I need to talk to somebody about this, but my victim's mother has always wanted to reconcile with me and I think I'm ready. So he just ignored kind of her outreach for years.

15 years. Totally ignored her. I said, okay. And he goes, but I'm terrified. What do I do? And I said, well, how would you normally communicate with her? He goes, I'd call her. If I was going to do that, she always said, call me.

I said, we'll call her. So we did. And they talked. He cried. And he said, I her if I was going to do that. She always said, call me. I said, we'll call her. So we did. And they talked, they cried. And he said, I'm so sorry. She forgave him. And that started this relationship. And all of a sudden, you know, they're talking weekly, often every other day kind of thing.

And eventually she said to him, she goes, Vail, she goes, you lost your mother while you've been incarcerated. And I lost my son, the son that he killed. And she said, Would you be my son? And I would like to be your mother. And he said, Okay. So he calls her mother, Jolene. And now his children go to her house for holidays. Because that's grandmother. And we finally were able to get her in the prison for his graduation. And they hadn't physically seen each other last

time he had seen her was in the courtroom on The day he was sentenced and so they embraced were you there for that? I was there And they cried and we cried and they embraced and You know, it's just this unbelievable Act of reconciliation and it feels like it's right out of the New Testament. I mean, it's like, you know, the kingdom of God is like, it's like a mother who had her son killed, and she embraced the murderer.

How about this is a little bit better than buying a yacht, buying a second house, having a million dollars, like, you're tearing up telling the story and what I'm feeling emotionally, like, this is better than anything else. What would you get for it? it's the point of life, right and He has been Such a good steward of this gift that he's received and he acknowledged that he doesn't deserve this So he's been so good about telling this story in such a way that he deserves none of this.

And yet it's a gift. And he doesn't want to be he doesn't want to squander this gift. And so he has been so active now in his ministry with other prisoners about encouraging them to possibly find a way to reach out and say I'm sorry and You know I've found the the people we meet on the news the victims or the people around the victims What we hear in the news is often anger Let the guy rot You know he took so-and-so's life, and he shouldn't have a life. And I understand that I really I mean, I get it. I

don't know what I would do exactly if someone I love was taken. But those are the stories we hear. The truth of the matter is statistically, most people who have been become a victim of crime, in some fashion, they the biggest thing they want to know is why They would actually love to hear from the perpetrator why why'd you do that? What's going on and they were looking for a way to unburden themselves to some degree of this and so it's really the minority We know that want to continue to feel hatred

revenge But those are the ones we often hear about I I've never heard that before. Yeah, that we know that for most victims, they're looking for a way to have some resolution. And the hatred of she've heard this line is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah, I mean, you know, the people that I've met, the guy who just got out a month ago The man he killed his brother. Okay, so the brother of the victim This has been 35 years. He was on a news clip recently when he heard that this guy was getting out

He was so filled yet with anger and like he should never get out what he's taken and then he was crying about it I thought guys still as as as What? Just almost destroyed on the day. He heard about it. He's been living that way for 35 years and he cannot let it go And I thought oh my word this guy's It's like he could I wish you could just unload this, but he's just not gonna let it happen. So I think the guy that was shot, his daughter forgave him the murder. And actually reached out to him and said, I don't know

who you become or what you are. But I just feel the need to reach out to you. And then she learned that, oh, he converted to Christianity, he's going into ministry. And then they started communicating. And she said, I just needed to know whatever became of you. We'll be right back. Experiencing the news each day can feel like a journey. With Up First from NPR though, it doesn't have to be. Welcome to 15 easy minutes of breaking news, clarity on international and national affairs, and a casual tone that you can take in with breakfast.

Begin your day informed, ready, and breakfast. Begin your day informed, ready and refreshed. Begin your day with Up First. Subscribe to Up First from NPR on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's talk about what all this has done for you. Oh, primarily the program is to help them. Yeah, as our listeners know, Bill constantly says your outreach for others does 1000 times more for you than it actually does for them. So I'm ordained in the Presbyterian Church and I did my seminary degree and all that. And over the years, I struggled working with your typical churches in terms of how is it

that folks consider the preaching week after week. And it just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference. You heard that I think it's MLK said church is not Yeah, place you're supposed to go to with a place you go from right and I caught myself in that, that that faith becomes a little blase and just kind of, you know, there's a certain form of personal piety and but I thought what about the bigger stuff about the gospel, the poor, the hungry? What? How can we never

seem moved enough to really do something? So when I started working in the prison, there has literally not been a visit goes by that I walk out going, Holy smokes. The gospel is real. God's doing stuff. Lives are being changed. And so it's become my kind of spiritual lifeline that, you know, Matthew 25, when Jesus says, when you visit the prisoner, you're visiting me. It's all sacramental. It's almost like you're going and getting some of Jesus by showing up. And honestly, that is exactly what

it's been for me. So I don't know what I would do now if they all of a sudden said tomorrow you can never go into a prison again Do I'd be like wait a minute no, this has been my lifeline they've given so much to me It's kept my sense of faith and hope for the kingdom alive. It's also done this When I was in college, I really wanted to make a difference. Because I was reading King and all these, you know, I want to make a difference. And I wanted to see things change and, you know, change the world. And when you work with something like a Department of Corrections, which is a total institution, change is really hard. And it feels like you're constantly struggling fighting. It's like you're punching a wall all the

time. You want that wall to be different. And I'd say until about a couple years ago, it really started to impact me physically. I mean, I had symptoms of a heart attack, and the doctor says it's stress. I mean, as all these things are happening, like what's going on here and They said you're your way stressed out more than you need to be and I realized because I was working so hard to change things I was more interested in the outcome as opposed to just being faithful in the moment. I Remember a couple of the guys said

You gotta change your way of thinking on this see we've learned how to do time We've learned how to think of the day as how do I be faithful today? What do I do today to make a difference and We doubt who knows if we're gonna change Department of Corrections, but that's not for us to figure out And I remembered I thought oh my word I've not learned how to do time. These prisoners are teaching you how to do time. They are there. There's an expression they use, you gotta learn how to jail. Which is to say that when you learn how to

jail, you realize there are so many things out of your control. And so you got to make a decision, are you going to let those things make you worse, let them destroy you, let them alter you in a way that you never wanted? Or are you going to look for a way to be strategic, maybe even subversive at times, but also to come out as the sort of person you know you need to be? And that's what I was missing. the sort of person you know you need to be and that's what I was missing and So these guys helped me

Recognize my finiteness That doesn't matter if I have PhD doesn't matter if I There's some things I just can't change or do and so then what and that's my fully began to appreciate Our calling to be faithful in the moment Yeah, we work for big change. Of course we do. But really, our calling is to be faithful in the moment. And if we get the big change, glory to God. If we don't glory to God that I've been able to be faithful in what's been given to me this day. And I'm learning how to do time.

Sure. My sweet. We had on Paul Young, the author of The Shack. Oh, yeah. I'll be a little bit of friend, too. But he's got a great line of stop future tripping. Worrying about the future, stop past tripping. Yeah. That's what most of us do and need to live in the grace of the day. Yeah. And if we're not living in the grace of the day, we're robbing people. Yes. I've got in ourselves. Yeah. Right. I that's spot. Thanks, man. I get that better now. And again, I feel like there's so much to learn from people that we think there's not much to learn from. So there are certain people we, you know,

I really first began to experience that when I worked with homeless people in Atlanta years ago. That, you know, there's lots of good reasons, you think. Well, if someone's homeless, what's wrong? They can't manage life, they can't do this, they can't do that, why would I take good advice from them? Because there's not good advice there. And then that's when you learn, everybody has a story story nobody grows up saying my goal is to be homeless and

you realize that a lot of people are forced into situations where they have to figure things out about this situation and do their best to be human and it's been thrust upon them maybe or even they did make bad decisions. And so I was remembering that now recently again, that we probably all miss great opportunities to learn from people. Because we don't think they have something to teach us. There's a former boss I do not get along with that. There's a former boss who I do not get along with, that there's a line like you can learn something

from everybody and seeing it that way. And that's really difficult when you have a bad relationship with somebody that there is still something I can learn. We got to move on to other stuff that you and I could go all day talking about this stuff. How many students have you guys had so far in total? How many graduates and where are you guys going from? Yeah. So we have just under 100 students right now. I think it's 93 or four. And we've got about 72 or

three graduates. So we're coming up on our 200 mark, or 10 years into it. Our original vision in sending out teams we're doing now and it works. So it's always one of those things where early on we had to go to donors and say, here's the vision and they would say, well, do you think it will work? And we're like, oh, we think so. We had no idea.

And you kind of really stepping out in faith there. Well, now we know it works. So what we've been pleasantly surprised by is, hey, guess what, we have a stable program, and the vision was on target. But then we say, but we've also learned that there's a whole lot more we could be considering and doing. So it's not mission creep, as much as it's mission development. Now we're getting a better sense of what the mission is. The goal right now is to begin to offer pre college

educational opportunities. So while we figured out how to help a guy who struggles in writing, get through college, we realize well, it'd be that much better if we could have a year with him before college. He could really hit the ground running then. And a lot of your one of your requirements that they have a GED or right school education first, right? So yes, you got on the front end, you can have a talent pool even. Yes. So even that, how do we accelerate that opportunity for guys to earn a GED? This is no different from what universities or colleges do with high schools

So high school says to whatever university or college. What do you want? What do we need to be doing here? And now we're there we can do that. We can start to say what needs to happen Prior to all this in the same way We have an opportunity not only to offer an academic experience, but now I have a bunch of graduates that I can pair alongside with these guys. They can do peer mentoring, all that kind of stuff. So we're actually going to start this June one. Nice. It's called a Wayfinder program. It's going to be a year long, they'll earn

eight academic credits that are transferable. And they're going to do all sorts of mentoring and programming that's non academic with our graduates. And so think of it as a year of formation. Then these guys by next fall, actually this year, so it'll be the next fall, because we'll have 12 schools in our consortium, just like any high school student. Now we can sit down and say, where do you wanna go to school?

What's the program that's attractive to you? You should feel confident that you're now ready to start. Not saying you won't have challenges, but the guys we found, this was really always interesting to me. You got all these guys who are tough guys, gangsters, the whole bit, and they go to college and you know The first course is they're absolutely terrified of is public speaking

They're terrified you know they've done all sorts of stuff that we would be terrified to do and That's public speaking and then you begin to ask them and they say why don't want to fail? I failed at everything I've ever done. This is my opportunity to be successful. Now. I feel like I'm gonna fail So their biggest fear is failure. So if we could have a year or so with them to work with them on that They would start their college career like a lot of high schoolers that I know do You've got this You know, you're gonna be able to do this. Because we've been telling you that through high school for years. My two kids, you know, you're gonna be fine. It's work

but you know, now you can do this so they don't start college fearful about the academic part. Let's wrap up this question of you guys are crushing in Michigan, but it would be great to have this all over the country and Actually, you know my previous work I interviewed Sean Pika the founder of Hudson link. Oh, yeah Yeah, I know Sean, you know, and that's not a Christian program that's general education Yes, I want to stress that too for people who aren't Christian. Yeah your guys program Is it there's also other models like Hudson link out there.

Bard. We probably actually should have a yeah. Bard prison initiative. There's some really great programs. But Senator Moore, you can check out those other things, but with you guys too, like what would your encouragement be? I mean, we're sitting here in Memphis. Somebody in Memphis hears that story.

Hey, is this going on in Memphis? What's the next step? And I mean, one thing I think we need to stress better in the podcast is sometimes I mean, you may be teaching seminary or teaching a college and you can like actually be the person who to go implement this. Yes, you could also be a listener who happens to be friends with them. Yeah, and send them this story. Yeah, try to get them engaged on it. But what's what's your advice for people listening who

might find this interesting? So here's my advice. It's a lot easier than you think. Politically speaking, across the country, we're in a good position right now. A lot of states are at a loss of what to do. And a lot of states don't want to keep spending the money that it costs. Michigan spends one fifth of its yearly operating budget on incarceration, which is $2 billion. That's wild. So every state would say, what do you got? If you've got something that can lower that cost, I'm all in. So

we've get bipartisan support on this. So we're in a good position right now. The country wants prison reform at a political level. Maybe not always at street level, but at political level. So the winds that you're back there to we now, as opposed to over 10 years ago, we now have a lot of models. It could be Hudson Lake could be the bar prisoner could be Calvin prison initiative. We've got a lot of models all across the country. So we literally can go into an area now and say, Okay, what do we got here? What kind of school do we have? Is it a community

college? Is it university? Is it a state school? Is it a private school? What do we got? All we need is a few people with interest. Now Pell grants are available. Those are made now fully available. Obama made it a pilot program. Trump continued it. And then Biden signed it. So now the department US Department of Corrections will offer Pell grants to prisoners that will cover a lot of the cost. So funding isn't as big of an issue. We're working with our state right now to close the gap. Pell covers this much. If we got about a $2,500, $3,000 grant from the state,

it would close the gap. So now money is also there. So the wind's at our back right now to say, if you truly have an interest for this and you know the right people, we can literally talk about starting a program. And we now have a model where we all know what these schools tend to do. They don't start with a BA, they start with a non accredited non credit bearing effort. And they get

some props, we're just excited about it, go in, teach wherever you want. Eight weeks, 10 weeks, a semester, whatever you want to do, just do it. We do that for about a year or two, everyone gets their sea legs, and then you ramp up to the BA. So we actually created a manual. Several years ago, we created a manual for schools, and we designed it for both private schools,

Christian schools, state schools, whatever about how to do this. That's great. All right, if people wanna contact you, Todd, you sound pretty open to it. Let's bring this to all open. So my email address is last name Choffee CIO ffi at Calvin calvin.edu. I would most welcome your emails, contacts. So one thing we committed ourselves to when we started the program is we said,

we've been blessed by donors, we've been blessed by this opportunity. And so anybody who needs our help, we will do our absolute best to give it. Thank you, Tom. And thanks for making the effort to come to Memphis. Thank you so much. It's great to be with you. Thank you so much, appreciate it.

And thank you for joining us this week. And thankfully, I'm joining you this week. Todd Choffee or other guests have inspired you in general, or better yet, to take action by trying to start something like Calvin Prison Initiative in your state, donating to them, or something else entirely, please let us know. I really wanna hear about it.

You can write me anytime at Bill at normalfolks.us, and I promise you, I will respond. If you enjoyed this episode, guys, seriously, share it with friends, share it on social, tell people about us, subscribe to the podcast, rate it and review it so people know how great we are. Join the Army at normalfolks.us.

Consider becoming a premium member there. Do any and all of these things that will help us grow an army of normal folks. The more listeners, the more people in the army, the more impact we can have. Thanks to our producer, Ironlight Labs, I'm Bill Courtney. Until next time, do what you can. Experiencing the news each day can feel like a journey. With Up First from NPR though, it doesn't have to be. Welcome to 15 easy minutes of breaking news, clarity on international and national affairs, and a casual tone that you can take in with breakfast. Begin your day informed, ready and refreshed. Begin your day with Up First. Subscribe to

Up First from NPR on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. What if you ask two different people the same set of questions? Even if the questions are the same, our experiences can lead us to drastically different answers. I'm Minnie Driver, and I set out to explore this idea in my podcast, and now Minnie Questions is returning for another season. We've asked an entirely new set of guests our seven questions, including Jane Lynch, Delaney Rowe and Cord Jefferson. Listen to mini questions on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your

podcasts. Seven questions, limitless answers.