An Army of Normal Folks - Todd Komarnicki: Bringing Bonhoeffer To The Big Screen (Pt 1)

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

Todd was the producer of Elf, writer of Sully, and is the producer, writer, and director of the upcoming film Bonhoeffer: Pastor. Spy. Assassin. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a normal pastor who had the courage to stand up to Hitler, rescued Jews, joined a conspiracy to assassinate Hitler, and was ultimately hanged for his defiance. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

And on this maybe third to last day, we're shooting the gallows scene and tears are just streaming down his face. And I'd never seen him cry. He's very, very close to the vest. And he starts to talk and he says, if only, if only. The allies had come a week earlier, too, if only. And as he was grieving what we were about to film it dawned on him and he stopped himself he said but wait if Dietrich had gone on to

live a full life he probably wound up in the black forest somewhere with his wife and children and written six or seven books. And the impact of his courage would not be felt. But because of this thing we're about to fill, his impact will never end. Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband.

I'm a father. I'm an entrepreneur. And I've been a football coach in inner city Memphis. And the last part, it somehow led to an Oscar for the film about our team. That movie is called Undefeated. Guys, I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits talking big words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather by an army of normal folks.

Us. Just you and me deciding, hey, maybe I can help. Today we bring you our second ever live interview and it's with the incomparable Todd Comernicki. He's the producer of Elf, the writer of Sully, and the producer, writer, and director of the upcoming film with Angel Studios that's titled Bonhoeffer, Pastor Spy Assassin. And it's about Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a normal person who stood up to Hitler, rescued Jews, joined a conspiracy to assassinate Hitler, was in prison, and ultimately was hanged for his defiance.

I cannot wait for you to meet Bonhoeffer through Todd's powerful storytelling right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Hey everyone, it's Katie Couric. Well, the election is in the home stretch and I'm exhausted. But turns out the end is near right in time for a new season of my podcast. Next question. This podcast is for people like me who need a little perspective and insight. I'm bringing in some FOKs, friends of Katie's, to help me out like Ezra Klein,

Van Jones, Jen Psaki, Ested Herndon. But we're also going to have some fun, even though these days fun and politics seems like an oxymoron. But we'll do that thanks to some of my friends like Samantha Bee, Roy Wood Jr., and Charlemagne the God. We're going to take some viewer questions as well. I mean, isn't that what democracy is all about? Power to the podcast for the people. So whether you're obsessed with the news or just trying to figure out what's going on, this season of Next Question is for you.

Check out our new season of Next Question with me, Katie Couric, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Todd Comer-Nickey, welcome to Memphis. Thank you so much. So you're special in a number of ways, but you're special in one real way. In the 13 or 14 months that an Army of Normal Folks has been out, we've only done two live events. And the first one was the Dancing UPS Man, and now you.

So you're special. I mean, live event, and these folks are here for you. When I heard about that, I was pretty troubled because highlighting a UPS man in a FedEx town sounded kind of bold, kind of daring. It's a really good point. We actually talked about that. So I'm going to finish with some spectacular dancing. Don't leave early. So for our listeners, you are producer with on Elf,

which I think is one of the greatest Christmas movies of all time. I watch it every year no matter what. My kids watch it with me. You wrote Sully, directed by Clint Eastwood and obviously, Sharon Tom Hanks that did beautiful, the story of the bird strike plane that landed in the Hudson and nobody died.

Phenomenal story. Great screenplay. And your latest project is while you're here, um, a movie called Bonhoeffer pastor spy assassin. And while I definitely want to get into for a few minutes, touch on the making of the movie and all of that, because I think that's interesting to most people. What's really poignant is Dietrich Bonhoeffer

was a normal guy who served and saved lives and changed minds and led in an unbelievably difficult time and served to death. And the research you had to have done on him to make this movie and the lessons we have to learn from this normal guy named Dietrich Bonhoeffer that changed people's lives in this world, that's the story we wanna hear that you told.

And that's what we wanna talk about. And I can't wait to get into it But before we do For those of you hadn't seen it for those listening now Here's just a quick clip the trailer to bonhoeffer And a great movie and the trailer gets me jazzed up. So here we go Something's coming So here we go. I've come to talk with you again

Because visions of the evening Left its seeds where my bones lay And the vision that was planted in the deep We have devised a plot to assassinate the Fuhrer. We will go to England as our spy. Churchill sees Germany as our home. He's afraid that a bomb traced to England would be an invasion of all works. Invasion? Invasion? My country was invaded from within! I And several words on the prophet's arm Written on the subway walls And tenements pause

In whispered The sound Of silence my destiny. That sound of silence iteration with that guttural music doesn't get you on the edge of the seat. You just need to go home now. That is phenomenal. When I first watched it and then your folks sent me the screener. There's so much in this film that just I felt, which speaks to your writing, your directing, your casting, and the work that you did, and the research.

And so briefly, share with everybody, because we don't get a glimpse into what it is to make a movie cradle to grave. And when you write it and you produce it and you direct it, it's your baby. So give us a glimpse into that world and how that works, and then let's get into Bonhoeffer himself. Well, there's three words that are the answer to all those questions, and that is Jesus is King.

The only way I'm able to do anything in my start with a blank page life, which I've been doing since I'm 22, is to get out of the way, to pray, and to work on my craft every waking moment. And I think that's an angel calling in. The story of making a film is exactly the same, every kind of film. You give all of your heart, whether anybody sees it or not, You have no control over results. When we made Elf we had a great time, but we certainly didn't know that all these other folks were going to have a great time sitting in the theater with it. And they're still 21 years

later going to sing-alongs and it brings families together. But that wasn't the plan. And living a surrendered life is so fundamental to being a good artist that I actually think that for a Christian, my life is so much easier than for a person who doesn't have faith or a person whose life is filled with routine. Because we're asked by Christ to not worry about tomorrow, to not worry about what we're gonna eat, and to not store up in barns. We're asked to do all these things that our culture tells us we must do.

We must save, we must prepare, we must count the cost. The only cost that Jesus asks us to cost is drop everything and go follow him. And so for an artist, having to start with that blank page every day, that's a lot easier advice to follow. Because I have nothing without him and I know that. So it's actually taught me tremendous compassion

for a person that is faced with the rigors of what the day to day asks. So what I try to speak into when I'm telling stories is faced with the rigors of what the day-to-day asks. So what I try to speak into when I'm telling stories is to really examine each individual's rigor. The things that Bonhoeffer had to do, not in a spectacular way, but how to talk to his family, how to play the piano, how to learn with his best friend,

Frank Fisher in Harlem, how to take in the details of a life that form a man, because I think if you get those details right, then it's captivating to an audience and you understand him when he makes the bold chance, the bold choice to really put his life on the line to save, and he did save, thousands of Jewish lives. So let's pick it up with Frank. For those who are listening that may or may not know

something about the Bonhoeffer story, as he became a young man and decided to study in seminary and become a theologian, he came to the United States to study, and he was really disturbed. He was unhappy with what he found in the traditional seminary in the United States at that time. And then he met a guy named Frank. Tell us about it.

Yeah, it's interesting. He was a star in Germany. He wrote his doctorate at 16. He was targeted for academic success, and he was from a very prominent family. And the German church, the Lutheran church, sent him to Union Seminary as their star pupil. And when he got there, he felt like, I studied all this when I was 15. Like he just, he, and he had a one particular professor you see in the movie that just bored him stiff. And he just thought, what am I doing doing here and I'm going to be here for a couple of years.

Fortunately he had a roommate and a friend, Frank Fisher, a black American who took him into the world of Harlem not just as you see here with the jazz but also... What year are we talking? We're talking 1930. 1930. So not only... Consider 1930. Yeah. Consider 1930. Just consider 1930, Harlem, and a German dude hanging around with Frank.

Yeah, I mean music was the bridge. Because Dietrich Bonhoeffer was an amazing pianist. He was a child prodigy pianist. He easily could have been a professional pianist. And so music was the bridge. But really what Frank did was he just had a friend who happened to be from Germany and he invited him into the world of jazz. He took him to Abyssinian Baptist Church where Dietrich was the only white member. Dietrich taught Sunday school. And what Dietrich found at that church was something shocking to him because German theologians at that time, they did not go to church. Carl Barth, one of the most famous theologians of all time, did not attend church. They wrote about. They didn't live within. And what Dietrich saw

at the Abyssinian Baptist Church was living, breathing faith. And it woke him up and it says that his two favorite things were Jesus and jazz and his life was filled with with joy. And that's what he took back with him to Germany in 1933. One, he took back the the joy of his newfound faith because he really met Jesus in Harlem. And two, outside of Harlem he had seen that his friendship with Frank Fisher was not convenient, and in fact, brought violence and fear because of the racial issues. So Dietrich went back to Germany

with a completely different lens to see the world through. So early on, when Hitler started othering the Jewish population, it was so homogenous in Germany that no one really took notice. It was very much, it wasn't in the newspaper, it wasn so homogenous in Germany that no one really took notice. It was very much, it wasn't in the newspaper, it wasn't discussed at parties. It was just, oh, this Hitler, he's really raising up the nation and, oh, he might be doing something. Oh, but that's okay.

He's doing great. But Dietrich noticed right away because the language of othering, no matter where you go in the world, no matter who is othering somebody else, the language is always the same. I found it as I was watching the movie. Now I'm gonna get all artsy here for a second, okay? I found it when I was watching the movie, interesting that in 1930, this prodigy,

the star of the Lutheran church in Germany is sent to the United States, and he goes to the seminary Mecca, right, and is yawning through it. And then he goes to an African-American church in Harlem where he is awakened. And I just thought, what an interesting metaphor for Christ, that Christ didn't surround himself with the people in the Mecca. He surrounded himself with fishermen and prostitutes

and the downtrodden and the social outcast. And that is where Christ's work was done. And ironically, in 1930, that's where Dietrich Bonhoeffer got his social awakening that ended up having him go to Germany and serve yet another race of people who were being wronged. Your friend that we met tonight at dinner said something really beautiful. She said in serving people in great need, people kept asking her, did you get a chance to teach them

about Jesus? And she said, well actually they taught me about Jesus. And it is beautiful. And also just this notion, the way I try to live my life, and I do this with all human effort that I have, is to remember that the only way to live is to give. So live to give and give to live. If we're doing that in all our relationships, if we're doing it, I mean, it's end of year, tax season, right? We can write a check and we can give and we can impact lives and that's awesome. But we can also give every day in front of us to our children to strangers Sometimes it's as simple as opening a door. It's just looking out at the world not where is mine?

But who needs something any anyone in this room needs? Something because that's what Jesus would do When he sat with the woman at the well or he called Zacchaeus down from the tree. He was always looking, there must be somebody that needs something. That's not because he wanted us to be laboring, or disappointed, or never have enough for ourselves. No, it was because we are built to give and we are only truly happy when we give. Actually, having becomes an affliction and life is adhesive. Look around your house.

Unless you're a Marie Kondo disciple, you have too much stuff. We live in 1700 square feet in New York City in our apartment, my wife and two kids, and we don't have room for anything and we have too much stuff. Life just like we're rolling slowly and it's just adhering to us is like we're the refrigerator covered in so many magnets you can't even open the refrigerator. So we maybe don't need to be acquiring all the time. And if we really want to be fulfilled, which is why we bought that crock pot and that sweater, you know we're just we're trying to scratch an itch we can't reach, we

really want to be fulfilled. Gotta do less of that and a lot more of living to give. a lot more of living to give. And now a few messages from our generous sponsors. But first, I hope you'll consider signing up to join the Army at normalfolks.us. By signing up, you'll receive weekly email with updates about the Army and short episode summaries in case you happen to miss an episode,

or if you just prefer reading about our incredible guests. We'll be right back. Hey, everyone, it's Katie Couric. Well, the election is in the home stretch and I'm exhausted. But turns out the end is near, right in time for a new season of my podcast, Next Question. This podcast is for people like me who need a little perspective and insight. I'm bringing in some FOKs, friends of Katie's, to help me out like Ezra Klein, Van Jones, Jen Psaki, Astaed Herndon. But we're also going to have some fun, even though these days,

fun and politics seems like an oxymoron. But we'll do that thanks to some of my friends like Samantha Bee, Roy Wood Jr., and Charlamagne the God. We're going to take some viewer questions as well. I mean, isn't that what democracy is all about? Power to the podcast for the people. Whether you're obsessed with the news or just trying to figure out what's going on, this season of Next Question is for you. Check out our new season of Next Question with me,

Katie Couric, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Bonhoeffer comes back from Harlem with this renewed sense of faith and fullness, but also a mental acuity, a mental understanding of social justice because of what he witnessed his members of the church he joined deal with. And then he's faced with Hitler's Germany. I'm jumping ahead a little and I would like you to fill in the blanks from your historical study perspective of his life.

But he spoke out against what Hitler was trying to do with the church, which is basically make the church his church, abandon the Old Testament. He spoke against making the Fuhrer basically Christ. He was eventually banned from writing, banned from speaking, banned from Berlin. Yet, while all of the people that taught him, all of his peers, all of his co- even the people that he looked to as mentors were changing everything the way the state wanted it,

he had the temerity in the face of all of that, to kind of take us through that part of the story. And who Bonhoeffer was and why, in your estimation, from writing script and making a movie about him, what was going on with him at that time? Well, the first thing that happened is, and why we don't know this,

is because in America we really don't study anything about World War II until we got involved. And I'm not judging that, but that's really, if you want to know the stories, everyone's like, oh D-Day and Pearl Harbor, we all, everybody knows those stories intimately. But the reason we were in that war is because what was happening from 1933 on. So Hitler comes to power, he only has 33% of the Politburo, and he knows that he needs more power, and he goes right to the church.

And now this was a real thing. Currently, people talk about the American church, but I think there's American Christians, and there's many stripes of American Christians, but there's not really a monolithic American church. Back then in Germany, the Catholics had half the power, the Lutherans had the other half, and it was a real thing. So Hitler was savvy.

He said, if I fill these churches, I'm gonna have these clergy on my side. And that's what happened. And within the first year, crucifixes were coming out, and swastikas were going in. Above the altars. Above the altar. Bibles were coming out and swastikas were going in. Above the altars. Above the altar. Bibles were coming out, Mein Kampf was going in.

And by 35, they had rewritten the Bible and announced it boldly, very famously, it's in the movie at the Sports Palace, this huge event, where they have rewrote the Bible, taking all traces of Jewishness away from Jesus. Including the Old Testament. The whole Old Testament and then anything, what they called Jewish weakness. Didn't he add two commandments or three?

Two commandments got added, honor your master and Fuhrer, and always make sure that you keep the blood pure and holy. And they weren't talking about keep the blood pure and holy. And they weren't talking about Jesus' blood. Now remember listeners, this was the government doing it, but they can't do it without the church going along with it. That's the danger of the sound of silence. Go ahead.

Amen to that brother. Yeah, I mean complic part is part of it. If you if you look at anything in our own lives, and I always try when I when I feel strongly that something has been done wrong, I always look at my own heart. How am I doing that? How am I complicit? And so think you don't have to come up with it right now, but in the quiet of your life, think, OK, I feel very strongly about this issue. I hate that the ocean is being polluted, let's just say. I mean, nobody wants the ocean to be polluted. I think in general, people would say,

I hate that the ocean is being polluted. It's bad for the fish I'm eating. But the person who says that is usually on their 17th plastic water bottle of the day. So we wouldn't think that's complicit. That's convenient. Like, oh, he just handed it to me. There's nothing I can do.

I have to, I'm really thirsty. I better drink. This will be my last plastic bottle ever. So we're doing that all the time. So we shouldn't be shocked when we see complicity when it's writ large lead to devastation. And that's what happened.

And early on, and it's, Bonhoeffer says in the movie that the German church has traded full pews for full hearts. And so they were just so excited to have people finally coming back to these cathedrals. They missed the fact that those cathedrals had actually been stolen from right under their feet by Adolf Hitler. And in large part, the clergy was the most complicit.

100%. So he sees it happening and he, against everyone else, takes a stand. Yeah, it's beautiful. His heroism is so relatable because, yes, he was the only one. Because he's a normal guy. He's a normal guy. He's very cocky. I love that he was so cocky. He was always certain that he was right. And it led him to some dangerous situations.

But when he stood up against advice and threw the Nazis out of church and said Hitler is not the head of the church, that was, he painted a target on his chest that never went away for the last 12 years of his life. He was essentially on the run. But he didn't question for a minute that that's what he was supposed to do.

Later, when things got very difficult and he was in prison for a long time, he lost everything, he had the humanity to say to God, did I get it wrong? Am I, you know, should I have done something different? Am I, is this a punishment? Where's the victory? But always, every time he despaired, he pushed through with faith, and he found even though the ending was not an ideal Hollywood ending, he was at the ending that he knew as a man of faith was the real beginning. So that, I say that he had a garden of Gethsemane faith, and he loved the Sermon on the Mount, and he loved the story of the garden, and I loved the story of the garden.

For me, that was really the beginning of my faith when I was in my early 20s, that there would be a savior who had come to do one thing and on the eve of getting to do that one thing, asks not to do it. This is singular in history. Who would invent a character, a hero that tries to bail? Nobody. Now this happened, this prayer, these three prayers that Jesus did in the garden happened 30 to 50 to 60 years before the gospel's written down.

Even more of a reason. Even if that, you know, well we know that he kind of tried bail. Well, don't put that in because nobody will follow him. He's going to be resurrected in a couple days. We got to make sure he doesn't look weak or something. If you're crafting something, if it's not the truth, you would go that way. But the truth was that Jesus was fully human and fully God. And so on our behalf, this prayer is prayed. And in his anguish as a human being,

he feels it deeply, not my will, your will. And I wanna connect this to another story that I feel is richly bonded to it in scripture. This notion of three, you know, Peter's denied him three times, he wants out three times, and then he meets Peter on the beach in the Gospel of John, and I love this so much.

Peter jumps out of the boat, he swims to him. I've heard a ton of sermons about Peter abandoning the other fishermen, you know, in a Martha Mary moment, and just like, doing the needful thing, but he gets to the beach with Jesus and Jesus says the following, Peter, do you love me?

You know I love you, feed my sheep, says it three times. In the Aramaic, Jesus says to Peter, Peter, do you love me unconditionally? Peter, do you love me unconditionally? And Peter says, Lord, you know I love you conditionally. Feed my sheep, second time, Peter, do you love me unconditionally? Lord, you know I love you conditionally. I just betrayed you three times, don't rub it in. Feed my sheep, third time, Peter.

And this is asked of all of us. Peter, do you love me conditionally? Yes, yes Lord, I love you, conditionally. That is where Jesus meets us. And he builds his church on the cat who can't do it right. He builds the church on us. And we need to be okay with the fact that we can't get it right. That getting it wrong is fundamental to living under grace

and being so obsessed not only with our own lives getting it right, but telling everybody else how to get it right. Like I've been paying attention to this at home. I've traveled so much this year, so I've seen my kids a lot less than usual and really for the first time I've been away. And what I find when I get home is I tend to focus on, put down the phone, go to bed, brush your teeth, do your homework. Did you get it right? Did you get it right? Did you get it right?

And Jesus Christ has not done that to me one time this whole year or my whole life. He said to me, did you get it wrong? He just wants me to admit it. And then he says, it's okay, I got it right. So you're thinking all of this when you're writing and making the scene for Bonhoeffer in prison. That's the soul of those scenes.

Absolutely. His desperation, his ache, his garden moment, his begging in prison to be taken home because he knows he's going to be killed. And he just, he says in prison, he's just like, take me now. He doesn't want to face, who would want to face execution? And he feels like he's done the work. He's made the sacrifice.

Lord, just take me, just take me now. Yeah, he earned it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And we're so transactional with our relationships with people and we're very transactional in our relationship with God. So before he gets arrested, he's speaking out, he's been banished from Berlin. But even after that, tell us what you learned in your making the movie about. I mean, he basically was running an underground railroad

of teaching theology to young people because he recognized I've lost all these old people and they're gonna kill me if I talk and write anymore. So now he literally is basically doing an underground railroad, which is interesting if you think about the Harlem connection. Sure. An underground railroad of teaching

young, impressive theologians biblically sound theology when the Bible had been replaced. Tell us about how all that went. Well yeah, the confessing church was a splinter off the German Lutheran Church, and this group was the Underground Railroad. They were, a lot of them were seminary students. It was a handful of pastors that were speaking out against

Hitler, but if you spoke out against Hitler, you got the heave-ho very quickly. So they had smuggled these students to a place called Finkenwalde and he was... Which is where? It's in Germany. Okay. No, it's in Bavaria. Well no, I actually didn't know if it was in Austria or not. No, no, no. I didn't know. No, no, it's in it's in Germany. I was like, well I knew there were gonna be tough questions on this test. I actually thought it was an Oscar. All right, go ahead.

So, and he didn't want the job when it was first offered to him because he didn't feel equipped. He didn't feel like he studied enough or knew enough. And he was not much older than these young men. But the guy, I won't give away the spoiler, but the one who gave him the job said, like Samuel, you were called for such a time as this. This is your baton to carry.

And it happened to be the Bible. And so that was a deep, beautiful time for him. He wrote a book called Life Together about his time at Figenwalda, which I highly recommend. If that's in the store, that's a good one to get. That's a good one to get. We'll be right back. Hey everyone, it's Katie Couric. Well, the election is in the home stretch and I'm exhausted.

But turns out the end is near, right in time for a new season of my podcast, Next Question. This podcast is for people like me who need a little perspective and insight. I'm bringing in some FOKs, friends of Katie's, to help me out like Ezra Klein, Van Jones, Jen Psaki, Ested Herndon. But we're also going to have some fun, even though these days fun and politics seems like an oxymoron. But we're also going to have some fun, even though these days fun and politics seems like an oxymoron. But we'll do that thanks to some of my friends like Samantha Bee, Roy Wood Jr., and Charlamagne the God.

We're going to take some viewer questions as well. I mean, isn't that what democracy is all about? Power to the podcast for the people. So whether you're obsessed with the news or just trying to figure out what's going on, this season of Next Question is for you. Check out our new season of Next Question with me, Katie Couric, on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

["The Next Question"] It's important for us to understand we've seen, and you're right, our perspective of World War II really starts in 1941. The truth of the story of World War II starts in 1931 and evolves to 1941. But it really starts in 1918 with the Treaty of Versailles. Well, after World War I, because Germany had no support. Right. But as it pertains to Bonhoeffer's life, that's his perspective, with the exception of losing his brother in World War I. But the question I'm trying to get to is, he... He...Jews were being rounded up and the common people like the folks in this audience would

recognize that there were Jews being put on a bus, but they'd just go onto the bakery and ignore it because it was just kind of happening, but that was their problem. And nobody thought to ask, where are they going? What are they doing with all their stuff? What are they taking out of their house? People just they were complicit. Maybe they weren't Nazis and involved in it. But they were just as complicit because they wouldn't stand up. Now he did. And then he started this thing where somehow he was taking Jews to

Switzerland and buying off the Swiss Like border guards to save Jewish people. Let's tell us that part. Well, you get to give away the whole movie, man You gotta go. You gotta go see none of this is chronological. So you have to watch the movie to see the whole movie. Yeah, no Ultimately this Swiss transaction is what got him arrested. He was arrested for money laundering. And then later, they tied him actually to another assassination plot, not the one that he was involved with. Hitler just did this broad stroke because he wanted...

Hitler wanted Bonhoeffer dead from the time Bonhoeffer was 27, for 12 years. And he kept being told by his inner circle, you can't kill this guy. Everybody loves him. Like everybody on both sides. He'll be a martyr. He'll be a martyr. And so he got close. He got almost to the end. He almost got out. I've had an amazing conversation with John Matheson, my DP. I'm sorry. We had the lights up when the trailer ran. So it's really hard to see the beauty of the movie. The movie has been shot by John Matheson, who was nominated for an Oscar,

next to an Oscar winner over here. And John was nominated for an Oscar for Gladiator, and he's just shot Gladiator 2, which is actually opening on the same day, November 22nd. So it's Matheson versus Matheson. The Gladiator versus Bonhoeffer. That's like a sequel to both of them. Yeah, Gladiator's okay.

Opening weekend, pop into our movie theater. You can see Gladiator the okay. Opening weekend, it would pop into our movie theater. You can see Gladiator the next weekend at Thanksgiving. But it's so divinely shot and so beautiful, so when you get to look at the movie. But we were standing by the gallows while the gallows were being built. That scene was shot in Ireland on top of a hill. And John is a spectacular human being.

And he's very British. And he comes from groovy, groovy rock and roll, The Clash, David Bowie. He's done 500 music videos, he's done 60 films, and he's super cool, like without any effort. He's just that guy. He's just that guy. A lot like fat redheaded guys like me. Yeah, right.

That's it. Picture, it's the same. Real cool. But he's a beautiful human being, but he doesn't have a faith. And his father had a faith, and he kept talking about his dad throughout the making of the movie. And on this maybe third to last day, we're shooting the gallows scene, and tears are just streaming down his face.

And I'd never seen him cry. He's very, very close to the vest. And he starts to talk, and he says, if, if only, the allies had come a week earlier, to if only, and as he was grieving what we were about to film, it dawned on him, and he stopped himself and he said, but wait, if Dietrich had gone on to live a full life, he probably wound up in the Black Forest somewhere with his wife and children and written six or seven books. And the impact of his courage would not be felt.

But because of this thing we're about to film, his impact will never end. And so that's the power of the sacrifice. And it doesn't always require our actual life. Most of the time, it doesn't. Thank God. But the power of the sacrifice is the way we raise our children and never telling them. Now, your kids are here.

So I'm telling you, mama and this sweet man, what they did so that you're here, so that you have oxygen in your lungs. You're alive. You're fed. You know, Jesus, there's a sacrifice in what it is to be a human being. And the more we live close to the sacrificial Christ, the more joy and knowledge and wonder that is available to us. So this thing that feels like it's too expensive to do is actually the greatest gift.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Couple more questions and we're gonna open it to our participants out here staring at us. Back and roll. couple more questions and we're gonna open it to our participants out here staring at us. One thing, I don't want to spoil it too much, but go to commercial. But where I started crying, literally tears coming down my face and I had to watch the end of it in my computer in my office. So I had salespeople coming by wondering why I was sitting at my desk crying. And it was not because of the price they were getting for the lumber that I needed some more for, was the relationship that manifested itself with a guard, which once again, metaphorically, is very interesting to me that Bonhoeffer created

a relationship with a non-believer, a guard, a Nazi German guard, who right before Bonhoeffer met his death, changed. What does that tell you about the strength of faith and giving and the temerity and the courage to meet that faith? It's the aroma of Christ. This is a real guy, non-Bloch. The aroma? Say that again. The aroma of Christ. This is a real guy, Nodlock. The aroma? Say that again. The aroma of Christ. That's interesting. Well, it's scriptural. It's just, if you're living with

the Holy Spirit and you're close to Jesus, you give off the aroma of Christ. That's what people see. When people see, like when you're really beaming with light, and people say, oh my goodness, what is it? Like the only answer, because you know, you can't see yourself, the only answer is it's Jesus Christ. It's just, you know, we're called to be a light on a hill, a lighthouse, this is who we're meant to be. So what was happening when he was in prison in Tagel in Berlin before he got moved closer to his death

in Flossenberg, was that he was there for a year and a half and this relationship with this guard developed. And Knobloch drew so close to Dietrich that he offered to help him escape. And that's all true, Knobloch survived the war and wrote all this down. And when he offered Dietrich to escape.

You gotta see the movie. Gotta see the movie. It's phenomenal. I can tell you the ending of Gladiator 2. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Applause. Very soon somebody's gonna have to courage to come up here and help me ask questions

at one of these mics. But first, I am going to read something. I'm not gonna tell you where this happens, but I'm going to read it. I got emotional writing it, and I'm gonna try not to get emotional reading it. Bonhoeffer's life inspired these words. These are not his. But y'all, CNN and Fox are not gonna fix

what's going on in our communities. Fox are not gonna fix what's going on in our communities. And I don't care which side of them you like to watch. We have to understand our world and the power that comes out of the media is incented by an enormous amount of power and wealth to divide us. And it doesn't matter which side of that spectrum you're on, you're a victim to it.

The narratives that come out of DC, there are good, well-intentioned people in DC. I'm not painting with a broad brush saying they're all bad and evil. But I am saying there is a system in place, and scented by an enormous amount of power and wealth, to divide us so that we pledge ourselves to one or the other so that they maintain

power and control. That is a system. And the sooner we wake up to the fact that that system and those laws, if they govern us, we're very, very likely to end up at some point looking for a Bonhoeffer. Look for him now. Be a Bonhoeffer. Come on. I know there's Bonhoeffers out there in the audience.

I know there's Bonhoeffers out there in the audience. I know it. The lessons of the movie that this man has written and made about an extraordinary average man's life is phenomenal. It has so many parallels to the beginning of Christianity all the way till today's life. I just can't wait for you folks in three short weeks to be able to see it. These are the words I'm going to leave you with before I open it up to other questions. And again, these words are not written by Bonhoeffer, but about Bonhoeffer after his death. This was

written six months after the war ended which was only seven months after Bonhoeffer's death. It appears in the movie, I will not tell you where. Through us, meaning the vast majority of the German clergy. Through us and the church, infinite wrong was done. We accuse ourselves of not standing to our beliefs more courageously, for not praying more faithfully, for not believing more joyously, and not for loving more completely. joyously and not for loving more completely. That was written in 1945 about Bonhoeffer and I just wonder, are we guilty of that today? We have a lot to learn from your movie, my friend.

Oh, thank you. It's, listen, Jesus in charge and whatever is true and beautiful that exists in that movie, may it land in your heart and anything that's not burn away like chaff. And the thing I want to finish our little section about, because what you just read, I really appreciate that, and about the church. And earlier I said, I don't really think there's an American church. I've seen so much fighting over first politics, now in some ways Bonhoeffer,

just fighting from people that profess Jesus Christ. They share that and then share almost nothing else. I was like, the church, what is the American church, this church? No, no, no. what are we called to be? We're the body of Christ. And beautifully, Paul in the epistles says, can the eye say to the ear, I don't need you? Can the arm say to the leg, go away?

We can't be a body of noses. We can't be a body of only ears or elbows or knees. We need each other. And we don't have to agree on everything, but if we say we agree on Jesus being the Savior, we have to stop gathering all the noses and saying we gotta get rid of all the ears. We have to say, what do you smell? Why are you feeling this way?

Oh, wow, if I smelled that, oh, you picked up on that, because you, what do you hear? Oh, I never heard that. Oh, that makes so much more sense. And then the last thing we should open is our mouth. So with all of that said, that is this. If CNN and Fox are going to fix us, if social media is not going to fix us, if the

political system isn't going to fix this thing that ails us, maybe it's just a guy like Bonhoeffer or hundreds of them, or thousands, or a million. Maybe it is just an army of normal folks seeing area need, a wrong in their community, a spot where their passion and their discipline can engage at a moment of opportunity and change their piece of the world and with millions of us doing that we don't need to worry about what comes out of New York and DC anymore because we are the masters of

our own culture. Whatever is beautiful, whatever is true, whatever is honest, whatever is a good report, think on these things. You're talking about the culture, it's just clicks, it's just money. Love of money is the root of all evil. We talked about it at dinner, right before tipping. No, I'm joking. But this is the real thing. We are in this election cycle and now some are celebrating and obsessed, some are lamenting and obsessed, but we're still obsessed. We're not looking at what is beautiful and true

and honest and pure. And therefore we suffer and guess what? When we're soaking in these screens, we got less time to love each other. We got less time to love each other. And that concludes part one of my conversation with Todd Comer-Nickey, and you guys do not wanna miss part two. It's now available to listen to.

Guys, we go to the audience with a Q&A from the live interview, and it's awesome. There were a ton of really great questions, including about Todd's personal redemption story. During that, you could not hear a pin drop as he answered, together guys, we can change this country. Starts with you. I'll see you in part two. to. meow like Ezra Klein, Jen Psaki, Estet Herndon. But we're also going to have some fun thanks to some of my friends like Samantha Bee and Charlemagne the God. We're going to take some viewer questions as well. I mean, isn't that what democracy is all about?

Check out our new season of Next Question with me, Katie Couric, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.