An Army of Normal Folks - Welles Crowther: The 24-Year-Old Who Saved 12 Lives (Pt 2)

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

On September 11th, Welles saved 12 of the only 18 survivors who were at or above the floors where the plane struck the World Traded Center’s South Tower. He’s known as “The Man In The Red Bandana”, because that’s what he wore that day and had with him every day since he was a young boy. His mother Alison pays tribute to her late son.Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, it's Bill Courtney with An Army of Normal Folks and we continue now a part two of our conversation with Allison Crowther right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors and right after Ala rings the bell. I'm Soledad O'Brien, and on my podcast, Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to the 1960s. Mary Pinchot-Meyer was a painter who lived in Georgetown in Washington, D.C. Every day she took a daily walk along the towpath near the E&O canal. So when she was killed in a wealthy neighborhood... She had been shot twice in the head and in the back behind the heart.

The police arrived in a heartbeat. Within 40 minutes, a man named Raymond Crump Jr. was arrested. He was found nearby, soaking wet, and he was black. Only one woman dared defend him, civil rights lawyer, Dovey Roundtree. Join me as we unravel this story with a crazy twist, because what most people didn't know is that Mary was connected to a very powerful man. I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression.

John F. Kennedy, listen to Murder on the Toe Path with Soledad O'Brien starting April 23rd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Israel Gutierrez, and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade. The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. From the building of the core that included Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the core that included Clay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport.

I just felt like the biggest thing was to earn the trust of the players and let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down. Today, the Warriors dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny 6'2 hooper who everyone seems to love. For what Steph has done for the game, he's certainly on that like Mount Russmore for guys

that have changed it. Come revisit this magical Warriors ride. This is Dubb Dynasty. The Dubb's dynasty is still very much alive. Listen to Dubb Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI-fueled nightmare. Someone was posting photos.

It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body parts that looked exactly like my own. I wanted to throw up. I wanted to scream. It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the internet and to the front lines of a global battle

against deep fake pornography. This should be illegal, but what is this? This is a story about technology that's moving faster than the law, and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy. And I'm Olivia Carville. This is Levertown, a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope. Listen to Levertown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast.

Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are we ready to fight? I'm ready to fight. As you are fighting. Is that what I thought it was? Oh, this is fighting words. Okay. I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a bestselling author with the second most banned book in

America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. And that's what we're doing on Fighting Words. We're not going to let anyone silence us. That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to stop the teaching of Black history, queer history, any history that challenges the whitewash norm. Or put us in a box. Black people never, ever depended on the so-called mainstream to support us. That's why we are great. We are the greatest culture makers in world history.

Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Had spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary.

He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie and he was the star of the show. Go-Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my skin, break my ribs, I had my guts all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started.

Roger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one, Rod. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. So, you have this. Yeah. It's an evil day. And you believe that to be true because of your experiences

and your life, which those of us listening can choose to hear that or not. But all you got to do is look, this is a very normal woman having this conversation. And it's a very real thing. So. conversation and it's a very real thing. So the plane hits the building and you get a message that he's okay and then the second plane hits and the thing falls down. And you were absolutely convinced Wells would call it. Yeah.

Based on the way Wells grew up, based on what Wells was, the human being he was, the phone call to his dad to say, I want to be a fireman, his revelation in Spain and Italy, that he felt like his life was meant to serve other lives, it all culminated in that two hours. Yeah, yes it did.

Tell us about those two hours. Well, they were, I mean, during the time that the towers had collapsed and what was going on. Yeah. My coworkers drove me home. My honor was working up in Mount Kisco, which was also in Westchester. Her boyfriend, then husband now drove her across.

He always kept, he kept the car, but he kept a big tractor trailer between going west across the Tappan Sea so Honor wouldn't see the burning of the towers and all. He protected her from that. He was wonderful. He still is. They're both. I'm so blessed with two wonderful sons in love. Anyway, so I was like numb. I didn't eat for days. I mostly walked. I stayed up well into the night. I drank a lot of water. That saved me.

I stayed up well into like two and three o'clock in the morning because that was the only time you could really get through to hospitals. And I can- But it's been two, three days and you hadn't heard from them. Right. Your worst fears and your premonitions, your intuition that he was gone became very real at this point.

Well, here's what happened. Like, I think the second or third night into my staying up until like the middle of the night, I got up to stretch my legs. My laptop was down and my phone, I was working from my office space which was on the bottom floor. Wells' bedroom was also down there. So I got up and I'm walking around the basement to sort of stretch out and suddenly I Suddenly, I sensed this, all I can describe it is a huge energy space, like an energy, like shaped like that, right here, right there. And I said, oh Wells, that's you. If you can do that, I know you're okay." Also, I knew he was really gone.

I stopped looking. I knew he was not coming back, but that presence was powerful. It just freed me from trying to keep finding his living body. It never stopped me from looking for what happened to him because I kept watching everything and reading everything that I could looking for him, which is ultimately how I came across the article

in the New York Times and identified him. So eventually some police come and he's identified by his fingerprints. I can't even imagine what that conversation is for a mother and a father and a family. But even so, your question is what happened between mom I'm okay and his body being in the rubble? And then you found out the most extraordinary thing and how extraordinary your son is. And look, this isn't army of normal folks. We highlight stories of normal people who do extraordinary things. We've heard a human interest story about you and your son and your family,

which is heartwarming and gut wrenching. But we're about to get to the, to the beat of just how extraordinary your son is. But explain to us how you found him, quote, found him, and what you learned. And tying it back to that fateful Sunday morning where your husband gave him a handkerchief. I will. I was, as I said before,

I spent a lot of time reading anything I could, watching any programs, trying to catch a glimpse of him. Something kept driving me that if I kept looking, someday I'd find him. Just I wouldn't stop. Now, it's probably just a mother's instinct to do that anyway, but that was me. So time goes on.

We hadn't heard anything or learned anything at all. And my husband was reading, we got the New York Times, and he was reading this section and he saw this headline, Fighting to Live as the Towers Died. And he could not, my husband couldn't read anything or see anything, he just was so emotionally damaged that it just, he soldiered on, but he couldn't do the searching that I was doing. Your husband-of-wells were best buddies.

Yes, yeah. Literally best buddies. Yes, yeah, yeah. So he said, here, you may wanna read this, because he knew I was always looking. So he handed me the paper, Yeah. Literally best buys. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So he said, here, you may want to read this because he knew I was always looking. So he handed me the paper. I took it into our bedroom and sat down on the bed and started reading. And I get to this section.

It was four New York Times reporters that put stories together based on interviews, based on phone messages, last reports of people being seen. And there was a section called 902 or 903 in the South Tower Sky Lobby. Well, the Sky Lobby in the 78th floor was where express elevators would go up from the ground floor lobby to then take people who were in the upper floors, there were another 30 floors to go, almost, for people.

So there was this big second lobby up there they called the Sky Lobby. And oh, well, before that, I should say, he was recovered. He was recovered on March 19th of 2002. And he was found with Donald Burns, who was instant commander with the FDNY and his men. So when we were informed of that, I said, yes, Wells, you know, you went to the top. Good for you. And there the medical examiner's office with people were saying, well, he was probably acting like a civilian usher. In other words, holding open the doors so people could run out. And I just knew no, Wells was not going to

do that. Not... We're going to sit the whole little... Yeah, no, that was not Wells. So they were found with a hearse tool. They all clumped together. They actually were blown up against the side of four-world trade because of the power of the tower coming down and acting like a big bellows. And that's how they were ultimately found in March. One thing Alison too with what they found him, I've always found this remarkable. So there was 2753 ground zero victims that day. They recovered 1674 of the bodies and only 293 were intact, including Wells. I've always found it remarkable that any of them were intact.

This entire building collapsed on you. The fact that his body was intact is insane. Well, he was missing part of his jaw and his right hand. So, I know. But there's a biblical reference. How do you even say that? Well, I don't know. I'm sorry. Don't apologize. I just try to be as factual as I can with this.

You're a strong woman. I try to be. I thank my parents and grandparents for that. So. Well, anyway, so back to that day. So actually the call from the police officer came on the Friday the 21st. And I was with my daughter who was auditioning for the classical ballet program at SUNY Purchase, which has a very fine classical ballet program.

And I was reading from this woman that I mentioned to you about, who talks about the universe, and it said, speak your heart to the universe and the universe can't help but respond. So I closed the book, this page was coming down for lunch, and I said to myself, all right, universe, here we go. I wasn't sure I believed in it, but okay, let's try this. So I would somehow like to be reunited with our son so that, so I can, because I had all these premonitions and these spiritual experiences along with what Wells did so that somehow we can bring our stories out into the world. I would imagine many people like you knew their loved ones were lost,

but they just wanted to know where and be able to put them to rest. Right, that's right. That's what you're looking for at this point. Oh yeah, just yeah. I mean it was horrible to be, to have nothing, really. It was horrible. Anyway, so I close the book, Paige comes down for lunch, and this is in about 10 minutes time, my cell phone rings.

It's a friend, my housekeeper calling to say, Allison, the police were at the door, knocking at the door. The police, they'd like to speak with you. And I'm like, oh my God, we had Boxer and a Labrador retriever at the time. And I thought, oh, what have they done now? Did they get loose? They were gallivanting around the neighborhood.

What's happened? Oh Lord. So I get on and the policeman said, hi, Mrs. Crowther, I'm officer so-and-so. Are you driving? I said, no. I said, why? Do I need to sit down or something?

I thought this was going to be really bad. Maybe they attacked somebody. Not my dogs, but hope. Okay, so I sat down and he said, your son's been recovered from ground zero. That was 10 minutes after I spoke my heart to the universe to say, you know. So I had to collect myself, and because I didn't want my daughter to know, at that point, because she had to go back and complete her auditions and dancing.

And so I soldiered up and went back and finished up and she went up to finish her auditions. And another woman, mother there came over to me and said, are you all right? You look pretty upset. And then I said, well, my son's just been recovered from ground zero. And she was pretty shocked to hear that. So Paige comes down afterwards and my daughters are very bright and also have their sensitivities too I think.

Anyway, so I told Paige on the drive back, I said, Paige, you know, they've recovered your brother. And she said, oh wow. And then she said, what day did they recover him? I said on Tuesday. And I didn't even think, put the date. She said, you know, Mom, that's the 19th of March. So they were clued into that.

So, so that was one part of it, but we didn't know the whole story until I was reading the times then in the end of May, it was a special piece that they'd done from Memorial Day weekend. special piece that they'd done for Memorial Day weekend. And I saw this section, fighting to live as the towers died, this section of 903 in the South Tower sky lobby. So I knew Wells was in his office that morning, but he'd gotten down below to work with the firefighters. That's where they found him.

So he had to have been passing through the sky lobby at about the time the plane hit. And I said to myself, well, if I'm ever going to see anything about Wells, it's going to be in here. So I started reading the section and sure enough, there were Ling Young and Judy Wein, two women that were rescued, referencing this man wearing a red, one said a red handkerchief, I think the other said red bandana and- That they did not know. Oh yeah, did not know his name. Completely anonymous.

Right. But this guy, this innocuous guy, and a red bandana saved their lives. Yeah. He found a fire extinguisher, was putting out small fires trying to administer aid, because some people were still alive but devastatingly injured. I'm not even going to describe some of the injuries. And he found Judy Ling, no, excuse me, Ling Young first. She was burned over 40% of her body.

She couldn't see because her glasses were filled with blood. But she was able to wipe them off. So she, so, and so he got her and carried a woman over his shoulder down to about what they estimate was the 68th floor. From? From the 78th floor, the 61st floor from the 78th floor. So 17 stories. Ling said, can I put down this fire extinguisher?

And Well said, yes, she'll probably be fine because down there, the lights were on were on you know things still looked pretty good So they were you know, he said just keep going I have to go and he put the woman down is that I have you have to keep going on your own I have to go back up and help more people So he turned and that's when he had the bandana off his face. So Ling actually saw him his full face So he went back up and that's when he found Judy Wayne and the people she was with.

And he directed them to the stairwell and got them going down and apparently went back in to just make sure, check on anybody else. And so he eventually, after all of that up and down, he made it all the way down to the ground level. I mean, it was just, but he moved fast. He was a runner. He moved fast and knew what he was doing. So he called out, you know, there are people you can save. There are people you can help. There are people you can't help.

Only help those you can help and get up and stand now and move with me now. So it was, Ling said it was his voice, the command and his voice that gave her because they were afraid the floors were going to fall out from underneath them. So, yeah. So that's how we found out. And the thing is you do none of this. No, none.

You read the times and this woman is just describing this guy with his red bandana. So as you're recounted that story, did you say, oh, that's got to be- Oh yeah, right away. I said, oh my God, Wells, I've found you. That's exactly what I said. I went running into my husband, I said, Jeff, I've found Wells.

Look, he's right here. Saving people, he's got the red bandana. That's Wells, Jeff. My husband said, don't say it, don't, you know, don't. He kind of poo-pooed it. I think he, I don't know what was in his mind, but he just, maybe it was too much for him to hope for, maybe that was it, so he didn't want to raise his hopes, but I was, I said I'm gonna track these women down and find out for sure. So the next day, I call, I'm going to track these women down and find out for sure. So the next day, I call, I couldn't find any information on finding Ling, but I was

able to learn in the article that Judy Ween worked for Aon. So I called Aon and they said, oh yes, I said, I don't expect you to give me her phone number, but I think it was my son that saved her. So here's my phone number. And if it is and she wants to call me, could she please call me? So by that afternoon, she called me and she said, she said, can you send me some pictures? So I sent her that picture of Wells with, you know, his senior picture and she said, and she moved, sent that around and Because they kept the people that survived from the South Tower. They're only of the 200 people estimated waiting there

They were only 18 that actually survived down that day The woman on the skyline. Yes. Yeah the woman that well set down Ling said come on you have to come I'm going and the woman said I can't I't, I'm too tired, I can't move. So she never survived. But the 18 that did kept like a email group chat going for months. And so Judy sent this out to the group and Ling's son responded by saying, my mother thinks this might be the man.

Can you send us pictures? So I sent her a picture of Wells and then I sent her another one that was more casual with, that had been taken in June where Wells, a member of Empire, also a captain, or I'm not sure what his title was, but he was in charge of the John D. McCain fireboat that fought the fires at Ground Zero, Harry Wanamaker, and invited Jeff and my son onto the John D. McCain for some sort of party or something the end of June 2001. So Wells said, hey dad, can you get a picture of Harry and me and be sure you get the World Trade Center towers in the background? So my husband did.

And so that's the picture. I cut out the towers so she couldn't see that. I didn't want to sway her in any way. And then her son said, well, my mom thinks it's him, but here are a couple of questions. And also I hadn't sent the more casual picture yet, or he hadn't shown it to his mother, but he said, what color was the handkerchief?

I said, well, if it was solid red, that wouldn't be Wells. It would have been a bandana with a pattern. That would have been Wells. He said, okay. And he said, what kind of t-shirt would he be wearing? Because he was stripped down. And that's like Wells. He would have stripped down.

I said, well- Take off his coat. Right, yeah, he's and it was anyway casual anyhow by them because that didn't start until a little bit later, the more formal dress. And I said well, it would be like a crewneck short sleeve Brooks Brothers type t-shirt, it wouldn't have been like a, you know, tank top. And he said, yep, that's okay, that's okay. So, Richard Young was her son that was handling, he is now an EMT from all of this experience he had. He said, I wanted to show my mom the picture and get her immediate response to seeing it. So I took the picture and she was sitting and I turned it and I saw her face. Yes, that was him right away.

What was that feeling? I was overjoyed, frankly, because to me, the most horrible thing, and it was cold, and even when we got his body back and had him buried, I felt so cold because I felt like I was still disconnected from him in a way. I was so overjoyed. He was gone, but at least now we knew

he made his choices that day. He was, to me, the greatest suffering would have been if he was trapped and couldn't move. That would have been a torture for him in the end. That would have been a complete, and I was so worried that that's how it was for him. So when I found out that he was able to do what he did, and that was before we knew the whole story, I just was overjoyed. before we knew the whole story, I just was overjoyed. Well, as you went to the top, you went to the

incident commander of the fire department there for the south tower to see what you could do. I just was so overjoyed that he died with his boots on, basically. He died a man of action. We'll be right back. I'm Soledad O'Brien and on my podcast, Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to the 1960s.

Mary Pinchot Meyer was a painter who lived in Georgetown in Washington, D.C. Every day she took a daily walk along the towpath near the E&O Canal. So when she was killed in a wealthy neighborhood... She had been shot twice in the head and in the back, behind the heart. The police arrived in a heartbeat. Within 40 minutes, a man named Raymond Crump Jr. was arrested. He was found nearby, soaking wet, and he was black. Only one woman dared defend him, civil rights lawyer Dovey Roundtree.

Join me as we unravel this story with a crazy twist, because what most people didn't know is that Mary was connected to a very powerful man. I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression. John F. Kennedy, listen to Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O'Brien, starting April 23rd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Israel Gutierrez and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade.

The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. From the building of the core that included Clay Thompson and Draymond Green, to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport. I just felt like the biggest thing was to earn the trust of the players and let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down.

Today, the Warriors dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny 6'2 hooper who everyone seems to love. For what Steph has done for the game, he's certainly on that Mount Russmore for guys that have changed it. Come revisit this magical Warriors ride. This is Dubb Dynasty. The Dubb's Dynasty is still very much alive.

Listen to Dubb Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI-fueled nightmare. Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body parts that looked exactly like my own. I wanted to throw up.

I wanted to scream. It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the internet and to the front lines of a global battle against deep fake pornography. This should be illegal, but what is this? This is a story about technology that's moving faster than the law and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy. And I'm Olivia Carville.

This is Levertown, a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope. Listen to LeverTown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Has spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary.

He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie, and he was the star of the show. Go Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable.

I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my skin, break my ribs. I had my effects all on my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. Rodger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one run. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

We ready to fight? I'm ready to fight. And you are fighting. Is that what I thought it was? Oh, this is fighting words. Okay. I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a bestselling author with the second most banned book

in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. And that's what we're doing on Fighting Words. We're not gonna let anyone silence us. That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to stop the teaching of Black history or queer history, any history that challenges the whitewash norm. Or put us in a box.

Black people have never, ever depended on the so-called mainstream to support us. That's why we are great. We are the greatest culture makers in world history. Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 200 people in that sky lobby. 18 survived. 12 of those 18, two-thirds are living today because of your son.

Yeah. And maybe some of the others too, but they haven't responded. I mean, we never tried to track anybody down. They've kind of surfaced. Some of the people doing the research and to do the ESPN and another film that came out interviewed and I've met more people now as a result. I just met for the first time last September another gentleman Keating Crown who well saved as well and I never he never reached out or I never I heard stories about him and we didn't

know for sure whether or not but he came up to me, we were at a big dinner fundraiser for the annual for the 9-11 museum and he's a big supporter, he and his family and he came found me, came up to me and he said, he said it's because of your son I'm here today and my children are here today and it's just, it was very moving. What goes through you when a human being looks at you and says, these children exist because of your son and his sacrifice? It's powerful. It's powerful. I don't, I don't, it's not, it's just a sense of the goodness of Wells. It's really all about Wells. And of course, I'm proud of him, but it isn't a source of,

hubris is like the worst thing. And it's not a source of that for me. It's just gratitude that these beautiful people live. And maybe some people have even said, we were afraid to come tell you because we didn't know how you would feel, whether you'd be angry with us. I'm angry, no, I'm so happy you're alive, it's okay. That was Wells' mission, that was his purpose.

As a firefighter, as a trained firefighter, that's your purpose to save lives. And in Army Normal folks, we say all the the time it's almost redundant and our listeners right now most of will be like Probably bill quit saying it that I'm going to anyway. It's my show. I'm allowed to is The most amazing thing happened when the most amazing things in the world happened What a person's passion and discipline intersect and opportunity. Oh, absolutely, yeah.

That is, you know, my concern is for your son is that these two, two and a half hours define his life. But his life was defined long before this. Yes, it was, from a very early age. But his life was defined long before this. Yes, it was, from a very early age. This was just... Another saying we have is, you know, people talk about football builds character. I think that's crap. I don't think football builds character.

I think football reveals character. I think all of the preparation you do in your life leading up to tough times. Tough, what doesn't kill you really makes you stronger. And tough times build character. I just don't believe that. I think all the preparation you do in your life for when the tough time hits you, that doesn't build character. You build your character up until that point.

And when the tough times hit you, that's when it has an opportunity to reveal character. And for me, the beauty of all of it is, your split set his whole life building for this moment, and as a result of his passion, his discipline, and his commitment as life, when opportunity met, he saved 12 others. That is a normal person making an extraordinary difference in the world, in their offspring and their offspring. I get it's not hubris.

I mean, I can only imagine both the pride and the humility you feel. But in his short life, what a legacy. Thank you. I'm just so happy for Wells. I just was happy for Wells that he was able to do what he did in those final hours. Because I know he was feeling focused and he was knowing he was making a difference. The fact that he called up and said, this is what I want to do with my life. I don't want to sit behind this computer.

And he ended up, he didn't die at that computer. He died doing what he wanted to do. Do you think when he went back up that last time, he knew the risk he was taking? Probably. Yeah, he had to have known the risk. He's a smart guy, but his mission was to save lives. And I've even had some young people who were firefighters and going on to be paid firefighters and, you know, regular companies say, you know, I don't know if I'd be able to do that. But that was not Wells. Wells was just different. I mean, he just was such a courageous soul. And from the time he was a little kid, he was always leaping from the highest places

and just had a big heart. And he cared for animals, he cared for people. And why? Okay, here's my thinking. A friend of mine asked once, why does evil exist in the world? And I said, I'm supposed to answer that? How can I answer that? And she said, you have to. Okay, so I thought about it and I said,

well, I guess evil exists in the world because if evil didn't exist then we'd be all here happy jaunty jolly, you know, like, what's the purpose of that? And so I really fully believe that we're here on this earth. I have deep faith in God and I believe in the afterlife and the whatever for life, I believe there is one. But I think that's our purpose here in this physical form on earth, to build our souls from wherever we start off, to build our character, to build our character to build our souls to look at challenges to look at evil to see How we respond and in how we respond is how we build our souls

You know coming full circle If somebody had come to Wells and said hey Wells Wells, think about what you're doing right now, because what you do right now will define what could be the rest of your life. Much like the advice Wells gave to his friend in high school, he'd have probably still run up the stairs. Yeah, well, and maybe that did go through his mind, and he would say-

He did it anyway. Well, he probably would say, I'll feel guilty forever if I leave anybody behind. That did go through his mind and he would say, he did it anyway. Well, he probably would say, I'll feel guilty forever if I leave anybody behind. I think that's probably maybe more what he was thinking. So here's the deal. The story of Well's life, the story of his death

cannot be so profound that it overshadows the story of his life, which was about leadership and about caring for others and about being part of the team and about caring. And so, as all inspiring as the story of the last three hours of your son's life is and is phenomenal as the discovery of that story through Jeff giving him a red handkerchief, which connected everything to everything. Yeah, yes it did. Which, if you don't think there's divinity involved in it, I can't talk to you, because

clearly there is. Now there's a curriculum to honor not his death, but his life. Tell me about that. Well, thank you for asking. Yes, we're very proud of this. We formed a charitable trust in 2001 when this happened. Because people were giving us money like crazy, a fire department gave us like $13,000 from Maine, made a collection of different houses up in Maine and sent that.

So what are we going to do? We started this. So 10 years into doing our charitable work, I'd been also invited to schools and speak, and we were getting a lot of letters from some. And ESPN has called, and you get all this other. Yeah, things were happening. Well, ESPN called because that was Wells' buddy.

Drew Gallagher from Boston College worked for ESPN. So this was his brain's child. We're forever thankful. He won a sports Emmy as a result, which is very nice. I didn't know that. I didn't deserve that. Listen, I sat on the airplane and the guy next to me thought I was an idiot because I watched it crying on the airplane like a big baby, only two days ago.

Oh dear. Well, anyway, so 10 years into this, we get a call from... By the way, your husband is who made me cry. Oh, yeah, because he related as a father. You're probably right. Your father, I mean, your husband, the love he has for his son. There's no camera angle or producer or director that can make what that was. And I thought about my own children.

If I had lost one of my own in this way and I crawled inside your husband's heart and just died a little with it. It's so very real. I'm sorry. That's okay. No, it's important to people understand the connection that fathers can have with each other. Anyway, so another friend of our son's, Timothy Epstein, who is an attorney in Chicago now, was working as an advisor on a special project for the Fetzer Institute, which is based in Kalamazoo, Michigan. The purpose of this study was to kind of learn more about how love and forgiveness can work in the world.

So, they had 16 different areas of focus and Tim called and said, would you like to, I'm inviting you to make your, like, what would be your next creative step for the trust? So I said, I know what we need. We need to write some lessons, create some lessons around Wells' story because people are teaching about Wells and it would be nice to be able to, you know, communicate some specific lessons and values on character along with this. So I said, but I have to call a friend of mine. I called Reneui Peolini, who was an educator, retired in New Jersey, who had been invited by the 9-11 Museum to write lessons, and she chose about artifacts.

So she chose Wells' Red Bandana to write about, and that's how we got to know her. She was just amazing. And so the Fetzer, we put together a proposal, the Fetzer Institute funded us, and we created the Red Bandana Project, which are lessons on leadership, caring for others, team, the power of one, forgiveness, bridging divides, bridging divides, forgiveness, and carpe diem. Seven different lessons, each in five different categories. Elementary school, middle school, high school,

sports teams, and camps and youth programs. And there was a specialist in each area that Brinois and I pulled together to create these lessons. It was such an organic, wonderful time. I was so excited about this work and proud of it. And so now 10 years later, we've had the middle school lessons updated and digitized. So they are, you can...

Whose used it? Where are they being used? Well, in schools, they're being used in schools. We're trying to get them out more, which is part of our mission now to spread the word because teachers that use them are finding them to be really excellent. There's a teacher in Scarsville Middle School that has been teaching the forgiveness lesson for years now.

I go and speak to her group. I grew up there, so it's kind of going home for me a bit. My mother was an art teacher there too for 22 years. And our local YMCA, Rockland County YMCA, has been teaching the middle school lessons. They said they're just great. I'm now in the process of talking hopefully soon with the CEO of the Boys and Girls Club of Los Angeles

about hopefully seeing how we can work together on using these. So I think it's hard for schools because they have so much to cover with their usual curriculum. It takes a special teacher to engage with extra things. But they're now available free for downloading on our website, CrowtherTrust.org. That's what I was going to say. If you've got a youth group or if you're a teacher or whatever, you can download this curriculum for free,

depending on whatever age group it is, and teach these very fundamental tenets, all inspired by your son. Yeah, yes. And other stories too, they do bring in other stories as examples of what regular people can do. For instance, forgiveness. This lesson helps students to find forgiveness in both personal societal context while exploring how forgiveness can positively impact impact individuals and communities. I read that and I thought in our broken,

evil, divided, polarized world, how far could forgiveness go to solving so much of what the ills is. I think just about everything. Carpe Diem, this lesson encourages students to analyze quotes on seizing the day, identify personal obstacles, explore how Wells Crowder overcame challenges, and create their own philosophy for overcoming obstacles. In other words, don't be a victim. Go seize the day. The power of one. This lesson explores the power of one,

prompting students to reflect on its relevance. Journal, journal on how compassion influenced Wells Crowler and recognized others who made an impact. I can't think of a cooler, recognize other summated impact. I can't think of a cooler, your son's legacy is such a short time of the lives of the people he saved, their offspring, but also now this curriculum of tenets of how to lead a more fulfilling and beautiful life. Yeah, it's really powerful stuff. And I mean, we're truly blessed that we have so many people around us empower an investment company. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's pretty big. They do retirement funds and things based out in Colorado. But the CEO is a Boston College alum, and he is all about Wells.

They were very generous and financed our updating of the lessons and the digitizing of it. And we're still working with them today. It is powerful stuff. And when I go to speak at school, I travel around the country now speaking at schools quite a bit. I'm going to be in Tennessee. That's a great state. Yes. That's a great state.

Yes. That's a good problem. I know. I'm going to be in Knoxville speaking at the Webb School. I'm there. It's a great school. Yes, I gather. And the lacrosse coach put me there

because he talked to a friend of our sons who played with him at West Point and then another friend from Boston College that I guess played with him in some sort of tournament. Anyway, so I'll be the commencement speaker for their graduating seniors and then the next day I'm going to speak to the rest of the school population. When I talk to them, I like to say, I like to say, Welles was a lot like you. You know, he was a regular kid. He was a lot like, Maybe not quite so. Normal folks.

Normal folks. He was a normal kid. Had friends, got into some mischief, but always was very apologetic for any, I mean, he only did one really crazy thing. But anyway, I like to teach the difference, try to help them understand the difference between despotic leadership

and enlightened leadership. To me that's very important. And what involves enlightened leadership and it's these other factors, caring for others, the power of one. I say to them it lies within each and every one of you to make a difference in this world. And it can be multiple times throughout the day. Choosing how you react to a situation or how you deal with something, you can either make something better or make something worse. You can make someone happy or, you know, somebody drops their books, stop and help them pick them up or sit with a kid that's sitting by themselves at the lunch table. Get to know them.

You know, just do the kind thing, not the cruel thing. Do the selfless thing, not the selfish thing. All right, so one more time. If somebody wants to download this curriculum, they go... To CrowtherTrust.org, www.crowthertrust.org, and you will see their links to the Red Bandana Project and a bunch of history. And I will say this one last thing, if you want to wind this up. When Wells was working at his office, he carried his red bandana with him.

He continued to carry it throughout his life. The weekend, the Sunday before Tuesday, we were down in the city having dinner with him. We were walking across the street and Wells pulled out of his back pocket, a red bandana wrapped around his comb. I said, Wells, are you still carrying that thing? You're working on Wall Street now. I can't believe you're still carrying that thing. And he just gave me this like cat-like grin. You know, he just loved the response. But yes, you know, yes I am. Apparently, I learned much later through research done by Tom Rinaldi,

that there was a woman at his office. Wells always carried his red bandana, put it on his office desk, and she said to him one day, Wells, what is it with that red bandana? Why are you carrying that red bandana all the time? And Wells just smiled her and picked it up and held it up and he said, with this red bandana, I'm going to change the world. Unbelievable. Yeah. And he did. bandana I'm going to change the world. And he did and he is doing it and I say to young people I said don't let anybody take your power away from you. Don't do that. Know that you have the power within you to make decisions to make choices no matter what's around you it's how you

respond. We'll be right back. I'm Soledad O'Brien and on my podcast, Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to the 1960s. Mary Pinchot Meyer was a painter who lived in Georgetown in Washington, D.C. Every day she took a daily walk along the towpath near the E&O Canal. So when she was killed in a wealthy neighborhood, she had been shot twice in the head and in the back behind the heart. The police arrived in a heartbeat. Within 40 minutes, a man named Raymond Crump Jr. was arrested.

He was found nearby, soaking wet, and he was black. Only one woman dared defend him, civil rights lawyer Dovey Roundtree. Join me as we unravel this story with a crazy twist, because what most people didn't know is that Mary was connected to a very powerful man. unraveled the story with a crazy twist. Because what most people didn't know is that Mary was connected to a very powerful man. I pledge you that we shall neither commit

nor provoke aggression. John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the Toe Path with Soledad O'Brien, starting April 23rd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Israel Gutierrez, and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade. The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions.

From the building of the core that included Clay Thompson and Draymond Green, to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport. I just felt like the biggest thing was to earn the trust of the players and let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down. Today, the Warriors dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny six-foot-two hooper who everyone seems to love. For what Steph has done for the game,

he's certainly on that like Mount Rushmore for guys that have changed it. Come revisit this magical Warriors ride. This is Dubb dynasty. The Dubb's dynasty is still very much alive. Listen to Dubb dynasty on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York city found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare. Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked.

Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body parts that looked exactly like my own. I wanted to throw up. I wanted to scream. It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the internet and to the front lines of a global battle against deepfake pornography. This should be illegal, but what is this?

This is a story about a technology that's moving faster than the law and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy. And I'm Olivia Carville. This is Levertown, a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope. Listen to Levitown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada

had ever seen. Roger Car he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. He spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie, and he was the star of the show. Go-Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my spleen, break my ribs.

I had my guts all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. Rod, you're saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one, Rod. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are we ready to fight? I'm ready to fight.

As you want to fight? I'm ready to fight. Is that what I thought it was? Oh, this is fighting words. Okay, I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a bestselling author with the second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. And that's what we're doing on Fighting Words. We're not going to let anyone silence us. That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to stop the teaching

of Black history or queer history, any history that challenges the whitewash norm. Or put us in a box. Black people have never, ever depended on the so-called mainstream to support us. That's why we are great. We are the greatest culture makers in world history. Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're an army of normal folks.

Tell us stories of normal people who do extraordinary things where their passion and discipline meets an opportunity. And Allison, your son taught us that lesson with this curriculum and through you being so willing and so selfless to share what has to be so hard to share. But I guess in a way that's kind of how Wells would have done it anyway, yeah? Yeah. And I think also, you know, that I've shared this before that I have a question and answer period always when I go to talk to schools. And some of the questions are pretty amazing. And the last one, I was at the Belmont Hill School up in Massachusetts speaking a couple

weeks ago, and this young man stood up and said, what did you learn most about yourself with 9-11? And that was, nobody ever asked me that question before. And I said, well, you know, there's to myself, well, there's the family support, the friends support, all of that that helped make things good. But I said, what I really learned that was new was about the power of the spiritual side of what was involved in this.

And I didn't go into a lot of detail about it, but that premonition gave me strength. It opened the door to show me that there are, and since then other things have happened too, but to show me that there are, and since then other things have happened too, but to show me that there are forces that we can't touch, it's faith, it's God, it's whatever forces, there are reasons that things happen in life and it's like a big, and I remember thinking this in the beginning, it's gonna be like a big jigsaw puzzle we're putting back together. I'm still putting the pieces back together as all this plays out with what

we're doing now. It's not, the story's not over yet. The story's not over yet. There's more to come. And it's powerful. And that has given me huge strength. I remember taking, remember soon after 9-11, and I was in pretty much a state of shock for a number of days, but the Thursday, Friday, Friday morning, I woke up thinking, you know, why, I thought for a long time, why couldn't I do anything? Why couldn't I do something to stop, to help Wells,

to get, you know, to tell people to get out, whatever. And I felt very guilty, I felt guilty that I wasn't able to process the premonition I had into being able to save the people that didn't make it. And then that Friday morning I woke up and then I realized, oh, there was another series of epiphanies I had about this. This was the next one.

This message was just meant for me. It was just meant for me. And what am I going to do about it? So I met, I called my minister. I said, I have to talk to you in church. And I went and sat, I said, out of your office, we have to go into the sanctuary, sit before the cross. So I'm, you know, I'm telling you the honest truth." And he was wonderful. He was a very enlarged thinking

man, had also been a volunteer firefighter. He said, I told him what happened, and he said, he said, you know, he said, you weren't meant to stop the freight train, but you're, and I said, he said, you'll know what to do. And I said I that's the problem. I don't know what to do. And he said don't worry your heart will tell you how. And that was such powerful counseling. It just gave me strength and faith, faith. And every time I prayed to God please help me I feel so low I feel down to the ground,

down to the ground. And then within minutes, an answer would come or a support of something, like my sister-in-law calling from Italy, from Rome, at five o'clock our time. And she's calling to say, I don't know what made me pick up the phone and call you right now. This is after I'd looked at a picture of Wells with a little boy holding his Easter eggs, so proud, big eyes. And I was in tears like, God, why did you let anybody take this beautiful child away from me? And she called and she said, I don't know what it was that made me pick up the phone. Now it's midnight in Rome, to call you right now. He said, but I had to call you and tell you this. I met with

a religious man and he told me that God will miracle. She told him about Wells and he said, God will miracle him. And that was before Wells was recovered. That was in the, like in February before Wells was recovered in March. Gives me strength. Clearly, it gives you strength to keep doing this. Alex, how in the world did you bring this person to my life today? Holy moly. She's pretty special, huh? Oh, thank you.

Do you or anybody else that's joining us have a question? And by the way, Allison and everybody listening, it was 80 degrees, went to 40 degrees, and my sinuses have gone nuts. So if you've heard me sniffling and everything, well, one time it was because I choked up because of the story, but the rest of the time it's because of allergies. I apologize for putting up with my sniffle today. You have something to ask, Allison, or anybody out there have any questions or thoughts, or just want to say, my gosh, what an amazing woman,

your son, and your family, and everything else? I'm just trying to keep up with Wells, that's it. It's all about keeping up with Wells. That's pretty phenomenal. I'm good, Bill, do you guys? There's a hand. Yes, sir. Hi.

I wanted to ask what was Wells' faith life like? His faith? Well, we were Episcopal, raised Episcopal, and he really embraced some of the things that surprised me. I mean, he missed a lot of, he did get confirmed, but he always had ice hockey practices early Sunday morning, so that kind of nipped into church time. But he loved being in church when he was there. He loved the Easter series of, especially the washing of the feet that we would do Thursday nights. He just loved that.

And so I would take him to that. No surprise. That's all about service. I guess. You know, yeah. And he would go to the regular Christmas and Easter. When he went to Boston College, which is a Jesuit university, he really, he called up one time, he says, mom, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I'm taking a class in religion. I think it was

probably required at BC. And he said, do you mind? I said, of course not. I think that's really important. He said, well, don't worry. They're not trying to convert me. They were worried about me. Well, they're clearly. I know. Yeah. Yeah. I said, no, I think that's wonderful

that you're learning that's very special. So his spiritual growth at Boston College was really something. It was really special. And so- Their motto, Alison, is men and women for others. That's right. That's right.

And I also really think that if, if Wells had gone to any other university or college, this probably, they wouldn't have embraced what Wells did the way Boston College has picked up on this. I mean, they, every entering student now is given a red bandana. They, they tell Wells' story at all the freshman organizations. They have an annual race. That's right. Everybody wears red bandanas of its honor.

That's it. Yup. The Red Bandana Run, it's the biggest fundraiser for our charitable trust and that was started back in 2005. Paige, my younger daughter was still, she was a student there. She graduated in 2006. So I went up to visit and see that one of the large donors at Boston College, his daughter was in Wells' class. So he donated a million dollars to endow the Wells-Romey Crowther Directorship of the Volunteer in Service Learning Center. That's unbelievable. the Wells Remy Crowther Directorship of the Volunteer and Service Learning Center. Unbelievable. I know. And so I went up to meet this nice Dan Ponsetto,

who was the great young fellow who also teaches there, who heads it up. He laughs when I call him young, but everybody's young. Anyway, but one of Wells' classmates, two young women decided they were going to run the New York City Marathon to raise money for the trust. And one of the gals sold her mother's home-baked, she worked in trading, but sold her mother's chocolate chip, homemade chocolate chip cookies to raise money for Wells. She raised over a thousand dollars with those cookies, which I thought was great. Anyway, one of the gals introduced herself, she didn't run, but Marielle did run. She's still involved with us today. And so I went up and so Dan said,

well, what can we do for you? I said, you don't have to do anything. This is enough. This center is fabulous. No, no, no, there's something we can do more, which is always the Boston College attitude, which by the way, there's never an obstacle, only a challenge, and that kind of fit with my thinking too. And he said, oh, I said, well, why don't we see if we can put together a network of people to go run the New York City Marathon, which was a ridiculous suggestion, but it was all I could come up with because of what Marielle did. And he said, well, why don't we just do a run here? Okay.

And that's how it started. And it's just been, it's grown from like 200, 300. The ESPN documentary came out for the 10th anniversary. Suddenly it's up to like 1300 runners in a year. So again, nothing's a problem, just a challenge. And Dan had to talk to the city of Boston to work out a few things, but that's how it is. And it's almost now, almost, you know,

always around 16, 17, 1800 runners every year now. We'll be right back. I'm Soledad O'Brien, and on my podcast, Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to the 1960s. Mary Pinchot-Meyer was a painter who lived in Georgetown in Washington, D.C. Every day she took a daily walk along the towpath near the E&O Canal. So when she was killed in a wealthy neighborhood... She had been shot twice in the head and in the back behind the heart.

The police arrived in a heartbeat. Within 40 minutes, a man named Raymond Crump Jr. was arrested. He was found nearby, soaking wet, and he was black. Only one woman dared defend him. Civil rights lawyer Dovey Roundtree. Join me as we unravel this story with a crazy twist, because what most people didn't know is that Mary was connected to a very powerful man. I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression. John F. Kennedy listened to Murder on the Toe Path

with Soledad O'Brien, starting April 23rd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI-fuelled nightmare. Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body parts that looked exactly like my own.

I wanted to throw up. I wanted to scream. It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the internet and to the front lines of a global battle against deepfake pornography. This should be illegal, but what is this? This is a story about a technology that's moving faster than the law and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy. And I'm Olivia Carville. This is Levertown,

a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg, and Kaleidoscope. Listen to Levertown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Israel Gutierrez, and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade. The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. From the building of the core that included Clay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions

in the history of the sport. I just felt like the biggest thing was to earn the trust of the players and let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down. Today, the Warriors dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny six-foot-two hooper who everyone seems to love.

For what Steph has done for the game, he's certainly on that Mount Russmore for guys that have changed it. Come revisit this magical Warriors ride. This is Dubb Dynasty. The Dubb's dynasty is still very much alive. Listen to Dubb Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Are we ready to fight? I'm ready to fight. As you would have thought. Is that what I thought it was? Oh, I'm ready to fight. I'm ready to fight. I'm ready to fight. I'm ready to fight. I'm ready to fight? I'm ready to fight. As you were fighting. Is that what I thought it was?

Oh, this is fighting words. Okay. I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a bestselling author with the second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. And that's what we're doing on Fighting Birds. We're not going to let anyone silence us. That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to stop the teaching of black

history or queer history, any history that challenges the whitewash norm. Or put us in a box. Black people never, ever depended on the so-called mainstream to support us. That's why we are great. We are the greatest culture makers in world history. Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Had spent 24 of those years in jail.

12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie, and he was the star of the show. Go-Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my screen, break my ribs, I had my feps all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started.

Rodger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one, Rodger. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GO! Boy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We always talk about how in giving, you know, obviously the people that are given to are rewarded with whatever is given. But the true rewards are for the giver. Yes. That you get so much more out of what you put into it.

Better to give than to receive. Here we are, 23 now, 24 years. 24. Yeah, later. And you know, your very young son has a legacy that's enduring and continues. You know what a gift to the world. Thank you.

I hope to honor that. That's why I come out and talk or do whatever I can. You know what a gift to the world. Thank you. I hope to honor that. That's why I come out and talk or do whatever I can. And I so appreciate people wanting to hear his story and I hope they embrace it. To the kids I talk to sometimes I say, think of Wells as an older brother, you know, with an example that he would like to share with you. I'd like to think of people as well as just one of those normal folks who saw an opportunity and filled it.

And if we had millions of people with that level of idea of service, that kind of bottom-up approach to fixing broken things, you don't have to give your life for the world trade center to change lives Anyone else So, I know you talked a little bit about how faith sort of guided your grieving process but And this might get a little personal How a family member who recently lost her son as well and she's been grieving for years She hasn't been able to pick herself up and I look at you and I'm like, there's a world out there where she can be

She can grow from this she can learn from this What advice would you give to mothers that might have lost their children or that are grieving and really unable to see? themselves in the way that they could be It it's you know, everybody's different is the thing. It's the worst thing in the world to lose a child. No question about it. It's not natural. You're not supposed to, your children are not supposed

to precede you in that. So it upsets the whole natural. Yeah, it does. It is. And so, you know, people lose their children through health, through accidents, through other things that go on. And I think a lot has to do with looking at the relationship that you had when they were living and embrace that. You can't fix the loss, but you just can embrace the good,

hopefully, and hopefully she had a beautiful relationship with her child. That's what she has to embrace, the blessing of that. And, you know, there's really nothing. Maybe I just bury things. My husband wasn't able to deal with his loss in a healthy way. But just maybe, I don't know. Support groups never worked for me. Support groups didn't because I was in a different place than the other 9-11 families that were gathering for this.

And so that didn't work. That wasn't my role, how I rolled, so to speak. I just, I think, just embraced the love that she had and shared with them because I really feel, in my experience in several different ways, has been that they still exist. I know this. And in the different plane that we can't perceive here in this physical body, and we're not meant to necessarily not meant to really I don't think But but they're there with us and I and they watch overs they watch overs all the time I Suppose should I share my hard-boiled egg story? We probably need a rap I'm supposed to write a book now,

so you all can read my book and learn about the hard-boiled egg story. I love to read the book. I love to read the book. I just started it. It's going to take a while to come out. We're hurrying up. Thank you for coming from New York to DC to visit with me. Happy to do it. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you for your inspiration. Thank you for your inspiration. Thank you for your courage.

Thank you for your toughness. Thank you for being willing to share your story. Thank you for the curriculum you've put together, but more importantly, you're his mom. Thank you for giving the world your son. Thank you. It was an honor and a blessing to have him in our lives. He was just that really special person and my daughters are too. And I'm just, I'm sad for my

daughters that they couldn't share their visions of how their adulthood would be with their brother and cousins and the families they would build together. So, but they soldier on and they found their way and have beautiful children now too. So I got some of their mother in them. Well, I hope so. Anna wrote a book for her little children to learn. So that's out there also. Well, it's an orbeid normal folks. I think the world would be a better place if we had millions of Wells' and

hopefully his story inspires others, obviously not to run into falling down burning buildings, but to understand. You don't have to be part of a 501C3, some big gigantic NGO that the true service and true amazing things happen in this world from the bottom up, when an individual sees an opportunity to need and fills it with their passion, their discipline. Your son did that. We can all do that in so many different ways.

And that's the power of an Army of Normal Folks. So thanks for sharing his story to help continue to try to inspire that narrative. Well, thank you. It's a beautiful narrative and a mission that's really perfect. We appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for joining us this week. If Wells or Allison Crowther has inspired you

in general, or better yet to take action by becoming a volunteer firefighter. Hey, Ala, when somebody has a fire and they call the fire department and the fire department gets a bell and the fire department comes, what does it sound like? It's supposed to ring the bell. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. That was really good, Bill. That was a really good ring.

No, I meant you. That was like off the cuff coming up with that. You're pretty smart. I'm a trained professional. If you want to become a volunteer firefighter, which Ala, you think that's a good idea? Tell them, say do it. Do it.

Okay, good. Or doing something heroic when the moment demands it or something else entirely, please let us know. Alaa and I really want to hear about it. You can write me anytime at bill at normalfolks.us and I promise I will respond. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with friends and on social. Alaa, did you enjoy this episode? Are you going to tell friends about it? Okay, well, if you can do it, they can do it. Don't you think? Say it. Okay, good. Share friends and on social subscribe to the podcast, rate and review it. Join the army at normal folks dot us. I just saw Allah doing it. Consider becoming a premium member there. Any and all of these things that will help us grow

and army of normal folks. What's your name? Ila. I'm Ila, and until next time... You're not Ila. Say, do what you can. Do what you can. Thatta girl. We'll see you next week. I'm Israel Gutierrez and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the

Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade. The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. Today the Warriors dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny six foot two hooper who everyone seems to love. For what Steph has done for the game, he's certainly on that Mount West one. Come revisit this magical Warriors ride.

Listen to Dubb dynasty on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2020, a group of young women found themselves in an AI-fueled nightmare. Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts. This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg, and Kaleidoscope about the rise of deepfake pornography and the battle to stop it.

Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bob Pitman, Chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I'm excited to share my podcast with you, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. This week, I'm talking to the CEO of Moderna, Stephane Bancel, about how he led his team through unprecedented times to create, test,

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I always had to be so good no one could ignore me. Carve my path with data and drive. But some people only see who I am on paper. The paper ceiling, the limitations from degree screens to stereotypes that are holding back over 70 million stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time for skills to speak for themselves.

Find resources for breaking through barriers at tearthepaperceiling.org, brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council. I'm Soledad O'Brien, and on my new true crime podcast, Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to 1964, to the cold case of artist Mary Pinchomire. She had been shot twice in the head and in the back.

It turns out Mary was connected to a very powerful man. I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression. John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the Toe Path with Soledad O'Brien starting April 23rd on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.