An Army of Normal Folks - What To Do If Wine, Netflix, and "Self-Care" Aren’t Making You Happy (Pt 2)

Episode Date: December 30, 2025

Society tells us that self-care makes us happy, but Melissa O’Neil discovered that it doesn’t. She’s found happiness through building an identity of someone who serves. Sometimes that shows up in large ways like fostering two boys and other times in smaller, yet meaningful ways like helping a nonprofit write thank you notes. Melissa will show you how to find meaning in every season of life! Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Everybody is Bill Courtney with an Army of Normal folks, and we continue now of part two of our conversation with Melissa O'Neill right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. I'm investigative journalist Melissa Jeltson. My new podcast, What Happened in Nashville, tells the story of an IVF clinic's catastrophic. collapse and the patients who banded together in the chaos that followed. We have some breaking news to tell you about. Tennessee's attorney general is suing a Nashville doctor. In April 2024, a fertility clinic in Nashville shut down overnight and trapped behind locked doors were more than a thousand frozen embryos. I was terrified.

Out of all of our journey, that was the worst moment ever. At that point, it didn't occur to me what fight was going to come to follow. But this story isn't just about a few families' futures. It's about whether the promise of modern fertility care can be trusted at all. It doesn't matter how much I fight. Doesn't matter how much I cry over all of this. It doesn't matter how much justice we get. None of it's going to get me pregnant.

Listen to what happened in Nashville on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? just one page as a Google Doc, and send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one-page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co-founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Aldman.

There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one-person, a billion-dollar company, which would have been like unimaginable without AI and now will happen. I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award-winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people. Oh, hey, Evan. Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium businesses. Listen to Shell Game on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama, where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way,

and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family, and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him. So he would have this little practice, to the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From Revisionous History, this is The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revision's History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Like, if we're on the air here, and I literally have my contract here, and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm going to get a seven-figure check. I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks. From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creatives who built the cultural empire. The Atlanta Ears podcast uncovers the stories behind one of the most influential cities in the world. The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man.

Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's Rise, featuring conversations with ludicrous, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryan, DJ Drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as, like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent, creatives in all walks of life. The church had dwindled almost to nothing, and God said this is your assignment. And that's like how you know, like, okay, oh, you're from Atlanta for real. I ain't got to say too much. I'm a Grady, baby. Shut up.

Listen to Atlanta is on the I Heart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Greatness doesn't just show up. It's built. One shot, one choice, one moment at a time. From NBA champion, Stefan Curry, comes shot ready, a powerful never-before-seen look at the mindset that changed the game. I fell in love with the grind.

You have to find joy in the work you do when no one else is around. Success is not an accident. I'm passing the ball to you. Let's go. Steph Curry redefined basketball. Now he's rewriting what it means to succeed. Shot Ready isn't just a memoir. It's a playbook for anyone chasing their potential.

Discover stories, strategies, and over 100 never-before-seen photos. Order Shot Ready. Now at Stefan Currybook.com. Don't miss Stephen Curry's New York Times bestseller, Shot Ready, available now. That's when I started working with fostered the family, doing the child care. These are the things that make me excited is like finding these small creative ways to give back. I personally love writing handwritten notes, which is something I've always really enjoyed. And through working as a child care volunteer, I've realized a lot about being a nonprofit staff member.

And two things are very, very true. your donors are often your most important stakeholder that you have to report to because if you don't get funding you can't keep the lights on and two you never have enough time to do what you need to do so for foster the family and I think this is common in a lot of places they felt it was very meaningful to write handwritten thank you notes to all their donors and I love to write handwritten notes so I started writing handwritten thank you notes for them and it was such a small thing but I know because I know the staff that it was helpful to them because they're just so busy. And so it was just another small thing that I got to do

that kind of added to me supporting. And I just think finding creative ways like that, when I think about it being a part of my identity, like that's what I mean. There's been so many times in my life where I've been able to say, okay, what do I want in my life? And how can I find an opportunity to combine that with what someone else might need support in a community-driven way? I did that. They have a delivery program that I was a driver for. I was like, yeah, I can do some driving. That's, I'll put on a podcast.

I'll listen to the Army of Normal folks while I drive around. And the other thing that I've been a part of that we haven't mentioned that also kind of started at the beginning of my CASA journey was the giving circles. Yeah, which, by the way, if you want to hear an end-up story on the giving circle, you can go to the episode. One-use deal with, in fact, 100. There you go. Yeah. So it's very serendipitous. It is so funny that we have done stories on the people who either founded or very involved founding or managing the very things that you've done.

I mean, you talk about how this bigger world is such a small old place. Yeah. It's very cool. So Giving Circle, how'd that happen? Yeah. Yeah. And explain it. I'll answer that.

Especially since we're starting six Army and Normal Folks chapters soon. Giving Circle is going to be part of each of those. So why don't you just be a, tell us your story and be a commercial for it for us. Yeah, yeah, I will. I also just want to add that I think there are so many ways out there to get involved in a way that doesn't disrupt your normal life. It's really a matter of finding them. And I think this was part of what Rachel experienced is like it's very hard to find them.

But I think if you invest a little bit of time, you can find the places that you you can really connect. Yeah, pretty much every week there's an episode that tells you about something you can get involved in. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. So, okay, so go. And Rachel, you're speaking of Rachel Cohen.

Yes. Go ahead. All right. So at my training to become a CASA, the very first day of the training, you know, they wanted you to get your know, your neighbors. And they're like, oh, introduce yourself to the person sitting next to you and tell each other, like, how you found this, why you're here. And there were probably like 20 people in the room.

I happened to be sitting next to someone who had heard about CASA through her giving circle. And so she started explaining to me what it was. And I was like, I've never heard of this. So basically what a giving circle is is it's a group of individuals who collectively donate an amount of money, get together, figure out how they want to allocate that funding to a local nonprofit, do a Democratic vote, and then collectively do that. So the reason I'm explaining it. Yeah. So everybody getting their money together and then deciding this is who we're going to give the money to. Because your $50 may not go very far by itself.

Yeah. But a thousand of you, pick a number, 400 of you giving $50 makes a big enough dent that if you give all of it to one organization, that that amount of money could make a massive impact. Definitely. That's the idea. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason I describe it so vaguely is because through my experience, I've seen so. so many different variations of what that actually looks like.

And so I think that's also a really great thing about giving circles is like the concept is simple. And in reality, you can make it whatever you want, which is really great. And it's a part of my journey as well. So this particular one, it's called Many Hands, D.C. It's been around for at least. Many Hands. D.C. Yes.

It's been around for at least 20 years. And it started with, I think it was a. Let me do math. I'm a numbers person, but it's early. It's not early. It's 12.13. Thank you for that. Your body's on Eastern Time, so it's 113.

All right. All right. Just don't. It's a lot of pressure. A hundred women giving $1,000 to be a $100,000 grant. Can I interject in here to add some color to your own story? Sure. Because the woman who started it told me this.

Oh, yeah. I love the most about it. Absolutely. She got pissed. So I don't remember what they were raising money for, right? Yeah. But she and all the wives and women got together. And they spent hours making cookies and baking cakes and doing what the typical women thing was.

And they worked their ass off for weeks on end to put it all together and put together this thing. And they had a bake sale and a whatever sale. and they were so proud of raising $6,000. And then the guys got together, and they wrote a check for 25. And she's like, how did they outperform us four to one when they didn't do a damn thing? Yeah.

And she said, here's how it went. Her husband went to the golf course and rounded up all his golf course buddies on Saturday and said, hey, buddy, give me a check for 300 bucks. I needed for this. And the guy said, all right. And they got them, and $25,000. and I showed up with almost no work.

Yeah. And she's like, why are we killing ourselves in the freaking kitchen? Like, it's 1722. I have girlfriends that can write checks. And I'm going to start a giving circle and do it like the boys do. And we're going to do it better than them. I love it. That's amazing.

I've never heard that actually. That's the truth. That's great. She sat in the chair and told me. I know. I listened to a lot of them, but I didn't listen that one. I'll go back and do it. You need to.

All right. So anyway. You're the casse girl and you're introducing and she says giving circle and you're like, well, tell me about that. And then you go down the giving circle tunnel. So then I, I'm just immediately like so excited about this opportunity. Not not for me personally, it wasn't even about collecting, like collectively giving the funds, although I did think that was really cool. It was about learning about the nonprofits because part of what happened. Oh, that's interesting because you get to learn about so many nonprofits by thinking about who you're going to

give to. Yes. And remember at this point in time, I'm thinking I want to switch my career into the nonprofit space and I don't know anything. So I'm like, what a perfect opportunity. I'm going to understand so much. And so I donate. I join a grants committee, which was an incredible experience. I think I did it for three years, took a break and then did it again. I read that on the grants committee. I'm curious because I don't know this. The grants committee, I guess, gets submissions for whatever amount you're going to give away, and then you guys evaluate who you're going to grant the money to? Is that right or wrong? So this is where it really depends on what giving circle you're talking about. So for many hands DC specifically, it is, because it is a $100,000

grant, they do have a formal grant application. Annually, right? Annually, yes. It's actually much more than that. Now they give partner grants, I'll explain how it works in a second, that are typically in recent years have been around 60,000. So they give almost, I would say, yeah, like 300,000-ish, probably a little more than that every year. It's typically unrestricted funding, which, if you know anything about funding in the nonprofit space, is very important, an issue I care deeply about. The way that it works for that particular giving circle is they have four different issue areas. The nonprofits in the community do apply. They get separated into the different issue areas, and then each issue area has a grants committee. So I would,

was on an issue area grants committee for economic empowerment. We as a team reviewed the applications, narrowed it down, selected some did some site visits, narrowed it down, and then selected our winner. At the end of that process, which was a multi-week process, it was a pretty big lift for someone working full-time. I will say most of the members were not working full-time. The only option of a grants committee that was not meeting like Tuesday at 11 a.m. was economic empowerment, which also is probably what I would have chosen. But they've come a long way. They've adjusted a lot of that. But we select semifinalists. So there's four. And so there are four organizations who are kind of up for the impact grant, which is the $100,000.

Then there's an event where anyone, you don't have to be on the grants committee, but anyone who's donated is able to come, hear these four organizations pitch their organizations. It's a Democratic vote. Everyone gets one vote. And one of them walks away with $100,000, and then that's where the partner grants come in. So the other three split, whatever extra funds have been raised, which, again, I think last year was like $60,000 for each partner grant. That's also the part I love about it, is that if you gave money, your vote counts equal. Yep. And democratically, everybody who gave their money gets together and votes. And whoever gets the most votes gets all the money, and everybody's happy at the end of it. And if you didn't

when this year apply next because we're going to do it every year. Yep. That's awesome. Yeah. And it feels so organic. Yeah. And it also becomes a movement simply by getting together and writing checks. Yeah.

How cool is that? Yeah. And I think that I would say probably across the Giving Circle landscape, like most of the membership is done through like personal referrals and things. So it really is a movement in that sense. Yeah. I mean, there are ways to find them if you, if you're curious. to look one up in your community, you can.

But if you give your $1,000 away to some innocuous, well-known 501c3, that's beautiful, it's great, but you don't really know where that money's going. You get an idea and you trust the organization. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but in a giving circle, you actually have a voice in it. And you get to understand exactly where the money's going for the presentations and all. That's one of the things. I love them. I mean, I love so much.

about it, but it's awesome. I think another really, really great thing that happens that is really like kind of an unintended benefit is a lot of nonprofits actually don't really know each other. And for ours, because all of the finalists are different issue areas, they don't really know each other. And I think we've seen, I think there's at least two examples from the five years that I've been a part of it, where two of the finalists have actually come out of that event that night with a collaboration and working together.

How cool is that? Yeah, which is, again, not a part of what it was supposed to do, but when you think about people, like people usually need support in multiple areas. And so when you can introduce these amazing leaders to each other and they really get to understand, you know, different solutions that are maybe in the same geographical area, they can come up with really creative partnerships that I think is really beautiful. For our listeners, the scope, I think impact for 100 over its existence. with all its chapters is getting away over $200 million, isn't it?

So it's Impact 100. They give it over $120 million away. It was the last number I saw. 120 million. Yeah, but actually their biggest one, so Pensacola, which is one of the poorest counties in Florida, and yet they give away like $1.2 million a year. So they call it a million dollar Sunday. They give $1, like, 12 different $100,000 grants.

That's insane. Yeah, that's amazing. So you did the good. living circle. I did. And I loved it. And one of the things that I believe about, again, kind of tying it back to, like, believing this is just a part of who I am. And it kind of shifts with different seasons of life was like, I was able to do the grants committee multiple years. And then I had a year where I just, I knew I couldn't do that. And so I was able to step back, still donated the money, still got to vote, still got to attend that last conference. But I didn't have

to invest in much that year because for my personal situation, I couldn't. And then the next year, I was like, you know what? I've got more time this year. I'll do it again, right? And so I just think that that was really beautiful. Along the way, I also kind of had this idea that, like, it just doesn't even have to be that formal. Like, why couldn't we do this on an even smaller scale? And also with kind of the demographics, like, and just the amount of work and everything. Like, it wasn't necessarily something that I, and also the amount to buy into it. It wasn't necessarily something that I felt like I could really recommend to, like, all of my peers.

There were some that I'd talk to about it. but it just felt like maybe like a little bit too big of a first step. So I decided, I thought about this for years and I decided to create my own Gipping Circle. And this is where I said, you know, you said your kids are government employees. Like, that's okay. This could work. Essentially, I just got my friends together. I said, hey, instead of going to brunch, let's go to a park.

I'll bring some snacks. Let's donate whatever you would have spent at brunch. Didn't even set an amount. people donate different amounts and let's just talk about a couple of nonprofits and pick one. 25 or 50 bucks. Yeah, exactly. So that's essentially what people did. And, you know, it was a small group.

It was very casual. I brought my baby. There were two babies there. We like laughed at the babies playing while we kind of talked about different orgs. And, you know, as the host, I didn't have a lot of time to invest. So I went to chat, GBT, asked for some local nonprofit. did a little bit of cross-checking with some sites that I wanted to make sure they at least have the right financials and all that. But I didn't really overthink it. It wasn't going to be a huge

dollar amount. So I didn't feel like there was a lot of pressure there. But it was so fun. And I just, I feel like what a fulfilling way to spend a Sunday morning. We'll be right back. I'm investigative journalist Melissa Jeltson. My new podcast, What Happened in Nashville, tells the story of an IVF clinic's catastrophic collapse and the patients who banded together in the chaos that followed. We have some breaking news to tell you about. Tennessee's attorney general is suing a Nashville doctor.

In April 2024, a fertility clinic in Nashville shut down overnight and trapped behind locked doors were more than a thousand frozen embryos. I was terrified. Out of all of our journey, that was the worst. moment ever. At that point, it didn't occur to me what fight was going to come to follow. But this story isn't just about a few families' futures. It's about whether the promise of modern fertility care can be trusted at all. It doesn't matter how much I fight. Doesn't matter how much I cry over all of this. It doesn't matter how much justice we get. None of it's going to

get me pregnant. Listen to what happened in Nashville on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co-founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Aldman. There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one-person, a billion-dollar company, which would have been like unimaginable without AI and now will happen.

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award-winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people. Oh, hey, Evan. Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium businesses. Listen to Shell Game on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here.

This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering,

we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family, and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him. So he had this little practice, to the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From Revisionous History, this is The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Like if we're on the air here, and I literally have my contract here, and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm going to get a seven-figure check. I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks. From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creatives who built a cultural empire.

The Atlanta Ears podcast uncovers the stories behind one of the most influential cities in the world. The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's Rise, featuring conversations with ludicrous, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent, creatives in all walks of life.

The church had dwindled almost to nothing. And God said, this is your assignment. And that's like how you know, like, okay, oh, you're from Atlanta for real. I ain't got to say too much. I'm a Grady, baby. Shut up. Listen to Atlanta is on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Greatness doesn't just show up.

It's built. One shot, one choice, one moment at a time. From NBA champion, Stefan Curry, comes shot ready, a powerful never-before-seen look at the mindset that changed the game. I fell in love with the grind. You have to find joy in the work you do when no one else is around. Success is not an accident. I'm passing the ball to you. Let's go.

Steph Curry redefined basketball. Now he's rewriting what it means to succeed. Shot Ready isn't just a memoir. It's a playbook for anyone chasing their potential. Discover stories, strategies, and over 100 never-before-seen photos. Order Shot Ready. Now at stephen Curry book.com. Don't miss Stephen Curry's New York Times bestseller Shot Ready.

now. We'll be right back. Your own personal brunch circle or whatever you want to call it. It's a giving circle. It's just not formalized. It's a small, it's a little giving circle. Yeah. Yeah.

And then in the middle of it, you and your husband decide, let's be foster parents. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. Works. Yeah. But that's cool. Yeah, yeah. And the beauty of this story is the first few opportunities you said no.

Yeah. Doesn't fit us. Yeah. And then when something fit you, you stepped up and said yes. And you may or may not do it again, but you're a normal person who saw area of need. And through CASA and the way you explained that you felt kind of growing up, you gave that a shot. Tell us about that experience. Yeah.

Yeah, and, yeah, see, this... You're kind of a Swiss Army night for service. I really... It doesn't matter. Just go. This is where it goes back to, like, it's just part of who I am and that looks different in different seasons. And I think that's the beauty part of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Couldn't go about him. No way you do this without him rooting you on. No, definitely not. And I would also expand that to our families, right? Both sets of parents, we got it from them. So, big shout out to everyone. So tell us about the foster thing.

I mean, really, though, it's interesting. I always wanted to do it. I was always interested in it. It's part of why I became a CASA when I was doing child care for foster the family. I met so many foster families. The youth were amazing, incredible, normal kids, totally wonderful. I got to see a lot of them change through their placements with their, with their families and just see kind of the value that that sense safe home space can give and that sense of structure. And, you know, I was, I was ready to start my own family, didn't necessarily go as planned, right? And I kind of just decided, you know, I'm tired of waiting. We're going to do it. So, uh, I want a family one way or not.

Yeah. I mean, in reality, I was kind of in a place where I was like, I don't have control over one side of this, but I have total control over the other. I mean, we'd been talking about doing it for years. So it wasn't a matter of like, okay, I'm going to do this. It was more of like, well, we'll just do it now because we always want to do it anyway. why not now? So again, it's a phased process, and I think that's really important. When I did take that first step, I wasn't 100% sure that I was ready to do it right now, but I didn't have to be. So I just took the first step, and I signed up for the info session. We learned a lot. My husband and I did it together. Again, we'd been talking about it, but I knew way more than he did. So I was like,

this is great for him to hear kind of from someone else. We attended the information session. it felt like something we wanted to keep doing. So then we took the next step. The next step was the training, which was a pretty big commitment. It was five weeks in a row of like three hours, I think, once a week and at least five hours of homework in between. I'll also say for anyone interested, every single agency looks different. So this process is not necessarily what your process would look like. This is just what our process looked like.

From what we've heard, and we've interviewed a lot of foster people, they are different, but they're very similar. in terms of the amount of training required. Yeah, it's pretty. How it's given to you and digested seems a lot different depending on where you are. But the training is similar. I would agree and add that I think that's true for any agency that I would recommend. I think there are agencies out there that do not do a thorough process, and that's where you get a lot of the families.

are in it for the money. That's true. And typically the county who does the placements knows who those agencies are, and those are the last choice placement. But when you don't have home, you have to, exactly. Because we've heard the stories of children sleeping on the floors of government office buildings because there's literally no home for them to go to. And that's heartbreaking that a child who's already gone through probably enormous amounts

of trauma and dysfunction, who is in the throes of the trauma and dysfunction of being taking out of a home, now sleeping on the floor of a government office because they have nowhere to go. Yeah. I almost just brought that up from the funny part of it. What? But she talked about bringing her husband of the training and him not knowing as much. So you remember that very episode?

So Isaiah 117 house? Yeah. You haven't heard of you'll love it. But they started these homes where kids in that transition period can stay while they're waiting for play. And the one in Shelby County just opened up. Memphis. Yeah. And they have like 30 of these across the country. But she tricked her husband and are going to the training. She said, hey, honey, let's have a date on Wednesday. We're going to date night. And they showed up to a church for the training. Church with foster training. And he said, are you serious? And she said,

yep, sit here. That's so funny. Ours was virtual. So that wouldn't have worked. So you got your training. It was a lot. Yeah. So we did the training. And the training lasted for five years. So again, we didn't have to commit to doing it immediately, but we knew that if we did the training- The training didn't go on for five years. Once you were trained, you were certified for five years. Yep, exactly. So we were like, great, we'll do the training. We'll see what happens at the end of the five weeks. We can re-decide, you know, whatever we want to. Decided to keep moving forward. Did the home study. Same thing. Once you complete a home study, you don't have to open your home right away with our agency. It lasted for two years.

So, again, could have gone through the entire home study process and not taken a kid for up to two years. And at least we would have been ready to. But, you know, as life would have it, we just kept going with it. So went through the process, went through the home study. And I think it was like the week we got our home study certification found out I was pregnant. Which was just so ironic. But a beautiful part of our story. So we had talked about it.

And we had talked about it before we did the home study because the thing about the home study is... I just think it's funny that, yeah, you're going through all the studying of foster parenting, but clearly you're going home after those meetings and making your own baby. I mean, the point is... Not quite sure. No, but the point is you're going through this foster thing while also making babies of your own. I mean, it's just, I forget to tell you, Bill is very similar to me, Melissa. Yeah, it's all good.

I think it's, I think it's ironic as it could be that. Well, I just think it's a false choice to say you have to do one or the other. And I've always felt that way. No, I didn't say one or the other. No, I know you didn't. Yeah, yeah. But some people might think that. No, I agree with that.

I, I think it's hilarious. Yeah. So you're ready to go and, hey, you're pregnant. So, yeah, but so we had decided, so to back up just a step, when you go through the home study as a foster parent, which some agencies will call you a resource parent. So I'll just throw a resource parent. I think it's like the more modern appropriate way to say it. But I don't think the foster one is quite something you shouldn't say.

I just, in case my agency is listening. I don't see myself a person experiencing extra blubber. I'm just fat. And so I just say it. So I don't even understand. Yeah. We won't go down this rabbit hole. I mean, I'm not a person, I'm not a person experiencing a different level of hair pigment.

I'm a fat, red-headed guy. That's just the way it is. You've lost a good weight, though. Actually, when I'm coming in here today, I almost said that. I'm a less red-headed guy because I'm getting older. So, I mean, I just don't understand the language. I think it's important to be respectful when we can. Yeah.

I'm not woke, but I think it's important to be respectful when we can. But there's some of these that are just stupid, and this sounds like one of them, like resource parent versus. I don't know. I wouldn't go that far. Can I ask you something? Did you feel like a resource parent or a foster parent? You know, I felt like a parent. You know what?

That is a beautiful answer. I think that's really what it is. That's a beautiful answer. It's about time one of us is serious around. All the same. Well, I mean, you just threw a wrench and all. whole funny part because, no, it's true. You felt like a parent. Yeah. I mean, sure, did they feel like this, my biological child, no, but that's because I didn't know what happened to them

for the first. I doubt they felt like resource children either. Yeah, no. So go ahead. Or foster children. I don't know. I just. I don't know. They're just kids. I'm just a parent. I'm an adult. They're a child. Yeah, just normal people. Yeah, just normal people. Anyway, so when you go into the third phase and they do the home study, as the foster parents, you don't do a lot. Like most of the time invested is actually from the agency. And so they do the background checks. They do interview, but they have to write up the reports. They come do your home study, but again, they're putting in the effort more so than we were.

So my husband and I made an agreement that if we did that phase, getting pregnant would not be a reason to back out is essentially what we agreed on because we weren't going to let the county invest their very limited resources in us just to say, oh, no, just kidding, we're not going to do this. So anyway, so when we got pregnant, it was never a question. We were like, yep, pole swing ahead. Sounds like civic responsibility at its best right there. Just caring about the people, yeah, that you work with and not just thinking about what's best for you,

we're really thinking about what makes sense for everyone. So we said, okay, we're still going to move forward. And it was middle of August. Well, we got a couple of calls that we couldn't take, as you mentioned. You're in D.C. at this time. We're in Arlington, yeah. D.C. Arlington. Same thing.

Yeah. And, yeah, so we open our home. We get a couple of calls. The ones that were nose. They didn't fit into your age range? Or, I mean. It was a couple of things. There was some age range.

There was some timing. They actually called us for a couple placements before we were, like, actually mentally ready to be, to be open. That's really fair. Yeah. And they teach you. They, they taught us this in the training. They said, we want this to be a successful placement. We want this to be a positive experience for not only the child, but also for you.

We want, we don't, we know there's a problem with foster families, like, doing it once and then saying, oh, my gosh, I could never do this. this again and not and stopping right they didn't want that so they said we will ask you but we want you guys to really think about what you feel ready to handle and don't feel pressured and don't feel bad about it a lot easier said than done you still feel bad every time you say no for sure you have to you can't help it it's like when you go pick out a puppy yeah no seriously yeah if you go pick out a puppy you go home with one that you really love but in the back of your mind you're like oh I left those sweet ones there no totally I mean it's weird but you have this weird good I think You know, somewhere I heard this, like, people don't really think about foster care or they say, oh, I could never do that.

But, like, if someone showed up on your front door with a kid who didn't have a place to say, would you say no? It's kind of that idea, right? Like, once you see it and you know that there's a need, it's really hard to say no. So when they call you, and I actually got a call yesterday, and they say, you got a call yesterday. I did, yeah. With a nine-month-old? Yeah, well, we never told him we weren't going to. We never told him to stop calling us, so.

No, I hear you, but. Yeah, I mean, we said no. You work, your husband works, and you got a nine-month-old. That's hard. It is very hard. I think we're still trying to figure out what our foster journey looks like in the coming months, years, et cetera. But we haven't said no to it. So we're kind of taking it day by day right now.

I'm bouncing. It's my fault. That's okay. I also bounce a lot. You say no a couple of times. Yes. And? But ultimately, we end up saying.

yes, we were certified for two children, but we told them because we were now expecting that we can only take one. So we take one boy. He shows up on a Thursday night. How old? 10. About the same age you were when you went to Mexico. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of crazy. I didn't think about that. Very overwhelming experience for everyone involved. You know, you don't know what it's going to look like until you're in it. And even then it's like you just roll with it. It has to feel like a holy crap. And like, oh my gosh. Yeah.

I mean, maybe after he went to bed, I think when he first showed up, it's like, you know, you're just like, I'm here for him, you know, whatever, whatever makes sense. Can I ask a question? Sure. This is one that I've, maybe I've heard too many of these stories now after doing this and read too much about it. A lot of times I have a guest and then I get interested in what the guest's talking about and then I go down this deep dark hole reading way too much about what the gut,

and some of this is that too. Yeah. And I do not want to victim blame here, especially as it comes to children. I don't want to sensationalize it, but I'm just stating truth from what I've read is that some of these kids come from very abusive places, and their reaction to that oftentimes manifests itself in detachment. It also will manifest itself in anger. It will manifest itself in cutting oneself.

It will manifest itself in 12-year-old bedwetting. It will manifest itself in so many horrific ways due to the wrongs done to an innocent child over the course of many years, oftentimes, as well as what a child feels about himself. when he has been neglected because oftentimes a child's self-worth is so diminished by neglect that they don't even feel like they're worth investing in, which is horrifically heartbreaking. So as I just, and I'm not talking about your specific situation. I'm just talking in general. You had to have known all of these possibilities exist when a skid was showing up. Is that not petrifying?

Oh, absolutely. But I also Walking face first It's like a dog chasing park cars I mean You're going rough rough rock whack I mean you're You're going down this path

But you know That there's this Park car smack you in the face event that's going to happen We'll be right back We'll be right back I'm investigative journalist Melissa Jeltson. My new podcast, What Happened in Nashville, tells the story of an IVF clinic's catastrophic collapse

and the patients who banded together in the chaos that followed. We have some breaking news to tell you about. Tennessee's attorney general is suing a Nashville doctor. In April 2024, a fertility clinic in Nashville shut down overnight and trapped behind locked doors were more than a thousand frozen embryos. I was terrified. Out of all of our journey, that was the worst moment ever. At that point, it didn't occur to me what fight was going to come to follow.

But this story isn't just about a few families' futures. It's about whether the promise of modern fertility care can be trusted at all. It doesn't matter how much I fight. It doesn't matter how much I cry over all of this. It doesn't matter how much justice we get. None of it's going to get me pregnant. Listen to what happened in Nashville on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Kyle.

Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc. And send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan.

It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co-founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Aldman. There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one-person billion dollar company, which would have been like unimaginable without AI and now will happen. I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award-winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

Oh, hey, Evan. Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium businesses. Listen to Shell Game on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama, where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years.

That's how long Elizabeth's and its family, waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family,

and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him. So he had this little practice, to the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From Revisionous History, this is The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Like, if we're on the air here, and I literally have my contract here, and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm going to get a seven-figure check.

I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks. From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creatives who built the cultural empire, the Atlanta Ears podcast uncovers the story. behind one of the most influential cities in the world. The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's Rise, featuring conversations with Ludacris, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more.

The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent, creatives in all walks of life. had dwindled almost to nothing. And God said, this is your assignment. And that's like how you know, like, okay, oh, you're from Atlanta for real. I ain't got to say too much. I'm a Grady, baby.

Shut up. Listen to Atlanta is on the I Heart Radio Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Greatness doesn't just show up. It's built. One shot, one choice, one moment at a time. From NBA champion, Stefan Curry, comes shot ready, a powerful never-before-seen look at the mindset that changed the game. fell in love with the grind. You have to find joy in the work you do when no one else is

around. Success is not an accident. I'm passing the ball to you. Let's go. Steph Curry redefined basketball. Now he's rewriting what it means to succeed. Shot ready isn't just a memoir. It's a playbook for anyone chasing their potential. Discover stories, strategies, and over 100 never-before-seen photos. Order shot ready. Now at stephen currybook. Don't miss, Stephen Curry's New York Times bestseller, shot ready, available now. We'll be right back. I also remember had a lot of experience directly with foster youth and directly with foster parents and saw that there are also a lot of situations where the

The behaviors that manifest are a lot more manageable. They're still challenging, but they're not scary, I guess. And I also got to see how some of those challenging behaviors improved over time, right? I was doing child care for the same group of kids monthly over a course of a year, two years. So even with the fear, there's hope. I think there's a lot more fear than is probably reality. really for the age range that we selected which was not teenagers the older the more difficult yeah yeah so our age range was two to ten um all right so this 10 year old kid shows up shows up

yep and we're in it and and we said from the beginning you know unless there's a safety concern like we will not kick a kid out of our home right once he's here he's here for as long as he needs to be here. We were open to adoption if that was going to be something that happened. That wasn't our primary goal, but we weren't, we weren't against it. So we're just in it. And there were four kids that were removed at the same time. So the next morning, the department, kids. Oh, okay. Yeah. Comptuant. You're not, you're not supposed to talk. Okay. Yeah, I can't, I don't want to go too many details. That's okay. Natural reaction. So there were four children living together removed all at the same time, or in a similar situation together?

Yes. Okay. And two of them had been placed together, and then we had one, and then there was another one placed with another Foss family. So the four children were across three homes. Do you worry about more trauma separating kids that were close? Yeah, of course. You always want to keep them together when you can.

Yeah, I got it. And so the next day, the department of social workers, they had organized an opportunity to get the kids together so that they could at least see each other. And then kind of have everything happened at night. So it was like the next day, kind of get everyone together, explain a little bit more, calmed out, right, all of that. While that was happening, we were informed that the placement of the two who had been placed together was actually going to shift. And they needed a place for the younger of the two. And they asked us if we could take him because they didn't want the four kids in four different places.

and technically we were certified for two kids. They were both boys. And, I mean, it was a no-brainer. Like, it felt overwhelming. So one to one to two in 24 hours? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mind you, I'm pregnant also with a boy. And I have two boy dogs. So I just, you know, love all the boys. We kind of, like, hung up the phone. We're like, oh, he said we would only take one. But, like, this is already such an overwhelming experience. like our everything is changing anyway with the one like I guess we'll just take two so I ended up taking both of them very very glad that we did I think it was really helpful in a lot of ways and I don't just mean like helpful for us I think I mean I guess it is helpful for us but I think I was able to understand both boys a lot better by actually having both of them because they were so different from each other their experiences were very different they're the way that they handled.

He was nine. So he's only... Ten and nine? Yeah. So he was only a few months younger because we celebrated his 10th birthday pretty quickly. So basically it was two 10-year-old boys. Two different grades, same school, fourth and fifth grade. So both in the same elementary school.

But yeah, we had both of them. And of course, it was a lot of work, a lot of driving, a lot of discomfort, right? Trying to understand how long before they found. I don't know. I don't know if they ever got to it being home necessarily, but they felt comfortable pretty quick. Safe, very quick, yeah. Were they open to you? They were very much open to us as like these cool adults that we live with. Really?

They definitely, we never pushed the mom, dad thing. They knew what was going on, but they definitely, we built really great relationships with, with. each of them, and collectively as well. Would they behave and mind you? Yeah. I don't know what it was, but I mean, these boys were, they were great. They were great. What a cool experience.

Not without challenges. Let me, let me make that clear. They tested our patients, but knowing. They're 10-year-old boys, don't they? Totally. Yeah. But knowing where they came from, I think they are both absolutely incredible humans and are just, they're just amazing.

You're talking about them in the past tense, so obviously you didn't adopt them. No. So because they were not siblings, their case actually ended up diverging, which was really tricky to navigate. Oh, I bet that was fun. Not the word I'd choose. Yeah. But one of them moved out in May after about nine months with us.

The other moved out in September after a year with us. What's that like? You have to create some type of attachment. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Every experience is very different. I think with them specifically, and this is probably part of the, why I would say they never really saw our home as home, is they had a very large community. And that was very clear from the beginning.

So while the home that they were in wasn't the best place. for them. It was very clear that they had extended family and community that was a good place for them. And loved them. And we knew we knew pretty quickly that that was most likely going to work out, that they would have a very high chance of being reunified. So that you were a very safe, loving transition for them to get back to their family, which ultimately is the ultimate go of foster care, right? Yes, that is the first, that is the first priority. It's not always possible, but when it is, it's definitely what we wanted for them.

And especially once we knew the extent of the people that did care and love and wanted to be there for them, there were some things that had to happen to make that the right, safe call. But it was very, there was, in my mind, there was, there was very early on that I was like, oh, yeah, there's no reason. and that these children should be in foster care for a long time or should be up for adoption because they have the community is just working with the county and with us to make sure that that community is a safe place for them to live permanently. Are you able to allow or even incented or disincented to stay in touch? Every situation is very different. For our county, what the principal is, is it's up to the child and the family of permanency.

So if they're going back to extended family, it's kind of up to the extended family. Some want to keep that relationship and have an extra support in their circle. Others want to forget that it ever happened. So my role is to take the lead of what the other family wants. For our situation, the two boys were enrolled in summer camp together. So even though one of them moved out before the summer started, and I don't think that we will be able to maintain a relationship with that family, I was able to. I was able to see him quite frequently because he was in the same summer camps as the other boy.

So drop off, pick up, things like that, got to see him throughout the summer. He's doing really great. It was very special to be able to do that and see him. The other one, there is openness to maintaining that relationship. And we actually, so as a foster parent, you can do a permanent placement or you can do a respite placement, which is a short term placement that gives a break to foster parents. and we are doing that, and we actually had him back a couple of weekends ago just to give the other family a break. And so we had him for the weekend, and it was a great time, and he's doing really well. That has to be so rewarding.

It was, yeah. Because where does this kid end up, but not for you and your husband's willingness to provide? Yeah. I mean, who knows, right? I think the thing I kind of take away from it all is, like, I don't know how much they really would say, like, oh, we are so grateful for Melissa and Scott, whatever, which is totally fine. But what I think is really special is that they are, in a way, ignorant of the fact that being in foster care, like being in foster care can be a bad thing. And I think that in of itself is like really amazing.

That's good enough. That's great. I love that. Yeah, I envision one day them saying something to someone and them saying. saying, oh, my gosh, that must have been a horrible experience for you. And then being like, what are you talking about? Yeah. We played football.

You know, they made me read. They didn't let me watch TV. I had to go to bed early. But it wasn't a bad experience. You know, and I just feel like they're completely, hopefully just ignorant of how bad it could have been for them. There will be appreciation once they're adults. Yeah, I'm not worried about that. I know that you're not doing it for that, but there's no doubt.

Yeah. Okay. So Kasa, give you. circles, foster people, maybe again. I got a call yesterday. And ultimately, all of this kind of, I'm not going to say the linchpin or the anchor to it, but during all of this, from Delta to moving through to Scott's career and all of it, you wanted to end up in nonprofit and now you work for stand together. Everybody has heard me or Alex or Alex and me allude a little to stand together and I'm sure people have looked it up some have

less the some of the lazier listeners are just waiting for somebody to say something else which is probably the bulk of our audience not lazy people are busy I know I'm kidding I'm one of them we'll be right back I'm investigative journalist Melissa Jeltson. My new podcast, What Happened in Nashville, tells the story of an IVF clinic's catastrophic collapse and the patients who banded together in the chaos that followed. We have some breaking news to tell you about. Tennessee's Attorney General is suing a Nashville doctor. In April 2024, a fertility clinic in Nashville shut down overnight and trapped behind locked doors were more than a thousand frozen embryos. I was terrified. Out of all of our journey, that was the worst moment ever.

At that point, it didn't occur to me what fight was going to come to follow. But this story isn't just about a few families' futures. It's about whether the promise of modern fertility care can be trusted at all. It doesn't matter how much I fight. Doesn't matter how much I cry over all of this. It doesn't matter how much justice we get. None of it's going to get me pregnant. Listen to what happened in Nashville on the I, Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page

as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one-page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co-founder. After hearing a lot of stuff like this, from OpenAI CEO Sam Aldman. There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one-person billion-dollar company, which would have been like unimaginable without AI

and now will happen. I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award-winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people. Oh, hey, Evan.

Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents in small to medium businesses. Listen to Shell Game on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama, where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control.

35 years. That's how long Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family,

and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him. So he had this little practice, to the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From Revisionous History, this is The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Like, if we're on the air here, and I literally have my contract here, and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I signed this, I'm going to get a seven-figure check. I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks. From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creatives who built the cultural empire. The Atlanta Ears podcast uncovers the story.

behind one of the most influential cities in the world. The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's Rise, featuring conversations with ludicrous, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as, like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent, creatives in all walks of life. had dwindled almost to nothing.

And God said, this is your assignment. And that's like how you know, like, okay, oh, you're from Atlanta for real. I ain't got to say too much. I'm a Grady, baby. Shut up. Listen to Atlanta is on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Greatness doesn't just show up. It's built. One shot, one choice, one moment at a time. From NBA champion, Stefan Curry, comes shot ready, a powerful never-before-seen look at the mindset that changed the game. I fell in love with the grind. You have to find joy in the work you do when no one else is around.

Success is not an accident. I'm passing the ball to you. Let's go. Steph Curry redefined basketball. Now he's rewriting what it means to succeed. Shot ready isn't just a memoir. It's a playbook for anyone chasing their potential. Discover stories, strategies, and over 100 never-before-seen photos.

Order shot ready. Now at stephen currybook.com. Don't miss Stefan Curry's New York. Times bestseller shot ready available now tell us what stand together is yeah tell us what you do yeah and I'll just tease out there that you call yourself a numbers data nerd or geek yeah sure well I can't remember what word you use but you can call yourself something along yeah yeah um which I think is actually really cool because put me in a corner with a graph and I'm good.

Yeah. I love data points. I think it's interesting, and it tells stories. Yeah. Well, that was a lot of questions in one, but you probably know this as much as I do. Stand Together is a very large, complex organization. So I can't speak to all the wonderful and amazing things that it does.

But at the end of the day, it's a principles-based organization that believes in some key principles and works to partner with other amazing social entrepreneurs and organizations. to advance those principles through whatever scenario that looks like, which is why it can be really broad. Some of those principles are, like, dignity, respect, mutual benefit, self-actualization and like fulfillment, really believing that kind of bottom-up solutions

are going to be the best and most innovative ways to address some of our country's biggest problems. Yes. Why don't you give us your definition of what bottom-up is. We say that a lot. I remember thinking the first time I heard bottom up, I'm like, we ain't bottom up. I mean, I think we say it so much that I think some people don't even take a second to say, you know, people may not even understand what we're talking about when we say it's going to be hard to separate my view of what that means from my job. So I'm just going to explain

my job. Go for it. It's cool. So what it means for me and for my work that I do that is driven by numbers is I am leading what we call our customer first measurement team at the Stand Together Foundation. I didn't even know that existed before I read it, but it's so cool. Yeah, go ahead. Thanks. I mean, I'm telling you, it's a big organization. So the Stand Together Foundation is the part of Stand Together that works directly with a lot of

human service organizations. And one of the things that we know is true is that there's a big emphasis on measurement and measuring impact and using data to decide who to fund. and all of these things. And so what happened, and this was before my time on the team, is we took our principles of bottom up solution, and we figured out a way to represent that in a measurement strategy, a measurement approach.

And that's what we call customer-first measurement. So what that means to us is that if you're running, and if you're a nonprofit leader, you should be putting your customer first, And that customer is not your funder, which some people might think of, but is actually the beneficiary, the individual that you're serving. And you should be doing all of your measurement and data collection in service of that individual or that group of individuals and measure for them. And what that means, if you think about the mental model of a customer, is that their input should be driving your decision making. So the individuals that you're serving are actually the source of information that you need to be able to provide the best solutions and know that your solutions are not working.

So you mean when you go into an area of poverty, instead of telling everybody what they need, won't you just shut up and ask them what they need and listen? Yeah, essentially. What a crazy concept. I know. So novel. Yeah. And so, and what we find, you know, the team finds is that all. Our nonprofit leaders are, a lot of them want to do that. But there's a lot of conditions that exist in the social sector that prevent that from happening. And so, give me an example.

There's no funding for it. So I made a comment earlier about unrestricted funding. That's growing, it's gaining traction, but a lot of funding in the social sector is earmarked specifically for programs. A lot of times there's very limited funding that can be leveraged for internal knowledge systems and processes that would allow you to, collect information from your customers at scale. Now, that's interesting. So it prohibits you for being able to collect information. So then without that information, you have a hard time judging the organization's effectiveness.

Yeah, the funders do. And the nonprofits just don't have the tools that they want to be able to really understand their customers, the individuals being served, and the real experiences that they're having on the ground. And then another part of the kind of funding dynamic we experience a lot is because those programs do have to be predetermined, there's not a lot of space for like agility and innovation in real time. And so while we believe that data should be primarily collected and used for better decision making, which I would say most of our nonprofit leaders agree with us, unfortunately, a lot of times it's used primarily. primarily to get funding. And so there's this tricky, it's a tricky dynamic, and it's really challenging to actually get the understanding of the individuals in any sort of kind of like aggregated form.

And a lot of leaders, a lot of leaders are doing it, but it's anecdotal. It's based off of the few conversations that they've had with some of their customers who are sharing some insights. It's not systematized in the way that we think. could be really meaningful to the sector. So my team specifically works on building the tools, providing the tools and the coaching for the nonprofit leaders, for them to be able to collect this data. We offer some free tools so that the cost is not kind of a barrier.

There's still a time investment that can be tricky to navigate. And we're currently working on kind of figuring out how we can support the, empower the nonprofit leaders to communicate that data back with some of their funders. Is the data consumed and tracked on a term by term basis so that then over the course of a three, four, five year period, you can have measurables to see if the data and the use of the data have actually improved the effectiveness of an organization? I don't even know if I said that the right way. Yeah, you did. Definitely could be. I think it looks different for different organizations. A lot of times what happens right now is that's the only. reason why measurement is happening is kind of a pre-post survey or maybe an annual survey,

predetermined outcomes that are kind of set in stone over the years. And we don't necessarily think that that's bad, but we also believe that if you're able to kind of get feedback more regularly and more consistently, maybe three, four times a year, ask your individuals what outcomes they want to see. It may not be that they got a job. It might be something different. There's a really great example from a colleague of mine where, you know, one of their outcomes was the ability to get a job. And it was a lot of English as a second language families. And it was a festa? Yeah.

So what did you say? Remember Kim M. She was on the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. And she, you know, the outcome that the families wanted was to be able to speak to their kids' teachers, right? And so that's a big part of it. So the.

But once again, you wouldn't even know that if you weren't asking the question. You might be assuming that what your effort and money and everything was going to to reach a certain conclusion was a great thing, but you wouldn't have even known that the real thing was something completely different if you don't ask and collect that information, which effectively makes those who are giving of their time better at what they're trying to accomplish, which is service. Yeah. And so I would say like when we think about like from a work perspective, like not the ways in which people are doing impact measurement today isn't wrong. But by doing it through that customer first lens, you're bringing in what I would say is that bottom up information and feedback and ideas and context that you wouldn't necessarily get unless you intentionally ask for it. Where do you when you collect all this information, which is you and your group's job, where do you?

You send it off to who? We do not. No, we take the confidentiality really seriously. It's a big problem. A lot of times data collection and in the nonprofit space is very extractive. You ask for a lot of data from individuals and then you use it and it doesn't really benefit them. So our survey tools where we are not always collecting data, right? Sometimes we're just coaching organizations within their own systems.

But for the organizations who do want to leverage our systems, they own the data. They own the data. We store it. We manage it. We organize it for them. But they own it at the end of the day. We don't sell it. We don't use it. It's anonymous. We don't want to take on any PII risk. It is primarily there for the organizations to use to make decisions. And one key element of what we believe builds trust in the process is what we call closing the loop, where we actually coach all of our organizations in how to, to share what they learned and what they did back with those who gave them information. So that's important. It is because it helps. Well, to me, it gives the people you're serving agency. Yeah. And it helps them feel empowered.

It helps them build trust. There's so many benefits to it. And I think that's a key component of doing customer first that is necessary for it to really be as transformative. of as we think it can be, and as we've seen it be, for some organizations. So do you like it? I love it. I can tell. Yeah.

It's awesome. Yeah. I get to merge my data with my people, with my service. And at the end of the day, I get to hear stories of incredible, just like you, incredible nonprofit leaders and the amazing work they're doing. A lot of nonprofit leader. I'm a fact out with a microphone. I do get to hear the stories.

I do get to hear the stories. Right? Like your work is so, it's so. fulfilling because you're just constantly being, there's just constant inbound good. I know how fulfilling that has made my life in all aspects. And I just would love to convince others to just try to surround themselves with that kind of information, whether it's through podcasts, small acts of service, et cetera, because I think once you start, you'll just be drawn to it and you'll keep going and you'll just go deeper and deeper.

And who knows, maybe you'll become a foster parent like me. Who knows? Which I actually don't recommend for everyone. So not trying to push that on anyone. Yeah, we say it often. And if you've listened to some of the shows, I'd be shocked if you hadn't heard me say it. But I think the magic happens when a particular passion and ability intersect with opportunity. And those passions and abilities are wildly varied and different.

You had a passion for kids and an interest in specifically the foster system. at a young age and you had the ability and the opportunity and there it is that is going to be wildly different than many other people but that doesn't mean that they don't have a passionate ability and an opportunity and something completely separate and that to me is kind of the secret sauce of the army of normal folks if we have millions of people not doing the same thing but just employing their own passions and ability at places of our opportunity. There's a different story under every hat. Yeah. If you don't mind, there is an analogy that I would love to share that I think about, and I think ties really beautifully into that.

And actually, it came to me with Rachel's podcast with you that I was listening to it, which talked about moral running. When you think about running, I don't think you're going to just say one day, I'm going to run a marathon, right? You might say, oh, running seems interesting. I might try that. I'm going to go run a mile. And you could run one mile. That could be the furthest distance you ever run in your life. You could do it a couple of times. You are a runner. Other people might decide to push it a little further, run a 5K, run a 10K, 10 miler, etc. Some people are going to go run marathons. Some people are going to go run ultramarathons. All of you are runners. And all of you are a part of that community. And that's how I feel about my experience

with service. And when I think of the Army of Normal Folks, that's what I see as such an exciting movement to build. There's going to be people who are a part of this idea who are going to go start their own nonprofit. That's maybe like an ultramarathon. There might be someone like me who's fostering, you know, I'm running that half marathon. There might be other people who just volunteer with the same organization and build relationships with the staff there. And that's them running their one mile every day. And we're all contributing and we're all a part of it.

And it doesn't matter what that looks like. And I think it can change from season to season as well, right? My husband is currently running marathons. If we have another kid, I might not let him do that. So he might be a marathon runner. at one point in his life and maybe not in another. And I just, when you think about it like that, I just feel like it's very tangible and it maybe like makes it a little bit less

scary for those of you who want to explore giving back and don't know where to start. That is awesome. That was worth the whole interview right there. It's a great point is you can run two laps around the track. And if that's all you can run, you're still part of the running community. Yeah. I bet if you did it a couple of times, you might be able to run further.

You might want to. If you might want to. You might not, but you might. That's a beautiful thing is it doesn't matter at what level you join the Army. It's just that you join the Army at some level and do what you can. Yep. It's beautiful. Melissa, thanks for sharing your story and for coming to Memphis and to hanging out with me.

And thanks for all you do. I hope that the people that are listening to you are inspired to understand it really is just being a normal person and doing what you can do and join in a community. And I hope your life so far and your interest in service is an inspiration to those listening to us right now that say the dreaded, I really want to do something. I just don't know how. And, you know, our encouragement is don't be paralyzed by the fear that you're not good enough or that you can't make a difference because, like you say, just running one lap right around the track makes you part of the running community. Just doing anything makes you part of the Army of normal, folks. And the more you do, the more you'll get involved, the more fulfilled you'll be. And it beats the hot of a bubble bath and a glass red wine.

I totally agree. Because it's just fine to feel a good about service. to fill your life up when you fill someone else's up. Yeah. Which Melissa O'Neill, you, my friend, have done and continue to do. And again, thanks so much for joining us. I hope you and Scott and Jackson have a very, very, very, very Merry Christmas. Oh, thank you.

Well, thank you for having me. Excited to be here. And I love that you're just showing a normal person. So I'll try to come up with some other wrecks for you guys. Sounds good. We'll keep doing it. Sounds great. And thank you.

for joining us this week. If Melissa O'Neill has inspired you in general, or better yet to take action by making your identity simply someone who serves, becoming a CASA volunteer or a foster parent, joining or starting a giving circle, exploring customer-first measurement, or something else entirely. Please let me know. I really do want to hear about it. You can write me anytime at Bill, at normalfolks. Us, and I promise you, I will respond. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and on social. Subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it. Join the army at normalfolks.com. Do any and all of these things that can help us grow, an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. Until next time, do what you can.

Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff here with a story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second season of my podcast, Shell Game. on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Greatness doesn't just show up.

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