An Old Timey Podcast - 109: JC Penney Loses *Almost* Everything (Finale, Rebroadcast)

Episode Date: June 24, 2026

Howdy, History Hoes! This month, we’re getting some rest and relaxation. We’ll be back in July to bring you some piping hot stories from history. But for now, we thought you might enjoy a replay of our series on the history JCPenney – the greatest department store in the world.And if you miss us, you can get new content on patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. For just $5, you can binge our catalog of monthly bonus episodes and chitty chat the day away in our Discord! The Great Depression hit James Cash Penney hard. It decimated his finances. It worried him. It humbled him. After some soul searching, he came to realize that he could make a comeback. JC Penney the man proved to himself, and the world, that he still had something to offer. But the story didn’t end quite as sweetly for JCPenney the store.Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Norm pulled from: Currey, Mary Elizabeth. Creating an American Institution: The Merchandising Genius of J.C. Penney. Dissertations-G, 1993.Kruger, David Delbert. J.C. Penney: The Man, the Store, and American Agriculture. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2017.Penney, James Cash. Fifty Years with the Golden Rule. Harper and Brothers, 1950.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Well, howdy history hosts? Can you believe it? Vacation is almost over. And we are coming back with a vengeance, baby. But we aren't quite ready yet. So here's the finale of the J.C. Penny series. In part four, James Cash Penny has to navigate his business through the Great Depression, World War II, and an ever-changing retail world. Did his company survive? By the way, if you want new content from us, we're still active on Patreon this month. You can binge our entire back catalog of books. bonus episodes for just $5.com.com slash old-timey podcast. We hope you enjoyed this look back for the month of June. We'll be back next week with a fresh, vibrant, exciting episode of an old-timey podcast. Toodles! Bye! Hear you, hear ye! You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Norman Caruso. And I'm Kristen Caruso. And on this episode, it's the finale of my series on J.C. Penny.

Finally, it's here. The end of JCPenny as we know it. Good morning, Kristen. Shut up. We're recording in the morning again. I hate it so much. Do not reveal what time it is. Okay.

Because here's a thing. This feels very early to me. This feels very rude to me. I hate it. I'm barely holding it together. I was a good, solid 10 minutes late to coming into the recording studio today, which, by the way, the recording studio is in our house, for those keeping track. It's weird to be late to a thing that's in your own house, but I know that it's not actually early by like normal people standards.

I'm on Kristen's standard time. Can I just say the time? It's 1130. And Kristen is struggling right now. Listen, I like to wake up slowly at my leisure. I spent a lot of time reading a book. that I am just now putting together. I've already read this book,

but I don't have a great memory. How far did you get into the book before you realized you had read the book? Okay. Here's the thing. I downloaded it through the library and when it came onto my Kindle, I realized that it was at the end,

which means... That's the clue right there you've read it. Yeah, but I was sure I hadn't read it. And it's this story... But then why would it show it? It's a true story. story of a Jewish woman World War II, she became a Nazi officer's wife. She was in hiding. I have been on the edge of my seat the whole time. You would not know that I knew how World War II

ended or that I'd already read this book. But you know, I'm about 75% through now. And I, yeah, things are ringing some bells. Is this a true story? Yeah, I just said it was a true story. Future topic? Um, I tell you what, because of your Hitler series that almost broke you. I felt like I walked into this book with some additional knowledge, not just the knowledge that I'd already read the book, but also like, you know, the part where all the Germans are like, oh, we're fucked. And they had all those school children go say, oh, fear, we want to see you.

Because, you know. Yeah. Adolf Hitler was just full of farts and living on a prayer. He's getting bedtime stories and cuddles in his little bunker. Oh, God, yeah, you love to see it. Anyhow, the point is, you. You have insisted that we record at the crack of dawn today. It's 11.30 a.m.

Listen, Norm. Most people are taking their lunch breaks right now. I know. I had an embarrassing moment yesterday. And then we'll get to the story because I know this is not what you all signed up for to hear a middle-aged woman complain about waking up at her leisure. A middle-aged podcaster. There's literally no job harder on this earth. No, okay, so yesterday, I, oh, I was about to say, I woke up very early.

And I did for me. I woke up very early to take kit to the vet. It was a 45-minute drive. It's a whole thing. By the way, if you're looking for a fun way to spend money, I recommend dental surgery for dogs. It's a hoot. I think that's a racket. I think there's some sort of scheme going on at the vet's office.

Well, if it is, boy, we paid that Nigerian prince. My God. So anyhow, like a saint, I got up early. I took Kit to the vet so Norm could continue working on this J.C. Penny story that no one asked for. Wow. Wow. No, I am loving this series and I'm actually sad. It's ending.

But anyway, I drove out there grumpy the whole way. And then I met my friend Katie for coffee. And, you know, I was like, hey, how's it going? She's like, oh, I'm kind of tired for contact. Katie has three children, a full-time real job, not like a podcaster job, and she's working on a book. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so tired too. And she's like, oh, what's going on? I was like, I had to take kit to the vet this morning.

She's like, oh, that's terrible. I was like, I had to wake up so early in the morning. She's like, oh, my gosh, what time did you have to wake up? And as she asked the question, I was like, oh, shit, oh, no. Why did I come to this woman in particular with this story? And so then I had to be like really sheepish and be like, well, I had to leave the house by 745. Okay, now I'm going to go buy a cookie. So I'm basically a child.

Yeah, there's nothing that'll humble you more than perspective. Yeah, yeah. Someone with like an actually busy schedule and a lot to juggle. and me, I've got my one ball. Kristen, we've got to record a podcast today. This is, you know. It's kind of life or death, don't you agree? This is, yeah.

It's kind of the most important thing anyone will do in this community or the community at large, don't you agree? Yes. Speaking of importance, do you have a Patreon poem for us? We've been recording for about seven minutes now, and we still haven't told people about our Patreon. At patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. The one way we afford these dental surgeries for dogs that are clearly a racket.

Anyway, please support this scam that we have fully bought into. Join our Patreon, won't you? Patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Norm is grimacing because he's not impressed with any of this so far. And yet you will be impressed, my dear friend, when you sign up at the $5 level. At the $5 level, you get into our monthly, uh-oh, I messed up. Let's pretend. I didn't start the sentence that way.

And Joe, don't cut it, don't edit because the people love it. People love these very early morning recordings where I'm just barely holding it together. Anyhow, at the $5 level, you get into our Discord to chitty chat the day away. You also get monthly bonus episodes and you get them in video form so you get to see our beautiful shining faces. And, oh my gosh, if you got a little more to spend, and you want some more rewards. Well, buckle up, big boy, let me tell you something. At the $10 level, that's the pig butter investor level.

You get all that, plus early ad-free video episodes of this very podcast right here. And you get a sticker and you get our autographs on a little card. You're going to love it. Also, you get ad-free episodes of my... old, rotting, decrepit podcast. Let's go to court. Plus all the bonus episodes associated with it. But wait, there's more. Oh? Yeah, I'm about to drop some information on you, folks. Normie C. and I are taking off the month of June. It's going to be a glorious time, filled with, you know, sleeping in till God knows what hour. But during that time, our Patreon's going to keep on going,

baby, we're going to have a new bonus episode. We're going to have stuff on there. We're going to have trivia. The Works. I forgot to mention trivia. Yeah. Oops. This happens when you don't prepare these plugs.

Well, anyhow. See, I couldn't prepare because I was so sleepy. Poor Kristen had to leave the house at 7.45 in the morning. No one could possibly understand. Yeah. So we're taking the month of June off. We will keep updating this feed with some little surprise. prizes. But if you want to, June is a great month to join our Patreon because effective June

first, if you sign up at the pig butter level, that's the $10 level, you will get 50% off your first month. Holy smokes. What a deal. It's a huge deal. I'm thinking maybe we add a new tier in June as well. $15. For what? A new business opportunity. This sounds terrible. Invisal for dogs. I noticed, you know, because Kit got our teeth checked out, some of her teeth are, you know, a little crooked. And I thought, I just think Kit would be a lot hotter if she had straight teeth. We demand sexy dogs in this, in this house. I was actually thinking of veneers for dogs.

I want big, unnatural, but beautiful chompers. I'm just saying if the veterinarians, are getting away with this pulling teeth scam, we're going to start our own scam of putting fake teeth back in the dogs. You think that's what Invisaline is, putting fake teeth? Oh, no, you're on my veneer kit. Right, right.

Oh, thank you. Well, maybe we can do both, you know. Fake teeth plus Invisaline. Sure, sure. You know, a small independent sexy podcast needs sexy dogs, so... And scams, apparently. And scams. Patreon.com slash old-timey podcast.

Wow, well, what an intro. 11 minutes, baby. How many have turned off this episode? Wow! Norm! Norm, that makes me feel very sad. Me too. Almost as sad as waking up before I want to in the morning.

Before I get started on this episode, I do have some mistakes to talk about. Wow. Mistakes! Of shame! Norm, what have you done? I continue to fuck up town names. So in our last episode, I made. mentioned J.C. Penny opened some stores in Eli, Nevada and Shenandoah, Pennsylvania.

Apparently, that's not how they're pronounced. It's actually Ely, Nevada, and Shendo, Pennsylvania. Okay. Ely, I can understand. E.L.Y. Oh, now you're going to argue with the people of Pennsylvania? I am. I do not understand Shendo for Shandoa, Pennsylvania. It's just made up. This is all made up. No wonder this language is so hard to learn. Walter Shendo was a wonderful man. How dare you? That's a fake name you made up as a joke, okay?

You're not going to get me with that. I didn't know if you were a little vulnerable because all these mistakes. You know, it's just a shame because I just wish there was some way for us to seek out how to pronounce the names of these towns. All right. That's enough. We could start recording. Yeah, I know. If only there was a way, but there is no way.

Listen, Shannon Doa, there's the famous Shenandoah Valley. Are you still trying to argue with Pennsylvania? Hang on, hang on. I look at the word. Uh-huh. That looks like a word I know how to pronounce. Spell it. S-H-E-N-A-N-D-O-A-H.

Oh. Shannon-D-O-A-H. Okay, you know what? And they pronounce it as Shendo. They're wrong. I'm with you, Norm. it's not just because I'm married to you. And I want to disagree with you because you're the one who insisted we recorded this ungodly hour.

That should be Shenandoah. It should be. It's a beautiful word. Shendo? It just feels made up. It's like, you know, I'm from Elizabeth City. Right. It's like if I was like, oh, it's actually not pronounced Elizabeth City.

It's pronounced FisFuck City. It's just a completely different word. Why would it be Fishton? That's just what the locals call it. I don't have to justify why it's pronounced that one. Anyway, this has been another incredibly regretful and shameful segment of mistakes of shame. Norm, I hope you've learned your lesson. Definitely.

I guess I need to do better. Oh, my God. You know how I feel about that. Do better. Yes. Yes. Everyone. What's worse?

Do better or thank you for coming to my TED Talk? Oh, my God. I hate. internet phrase. I hate both of those phrases so much. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. I do think I hate the moat. Well, oh, God, I hate them both.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk is so deeply unoriginal, so deeply dated. And I say this as a woman who has the same hairstyle that I had in fourth grade. So you're an expert. Yeah, so I'm an expert in things that are dated. Also, I think it's a way of cutting your own legs off. Like, if you've got something to say, like a Muppet Christmas Carol fucking sucks, just say it. Just say it. And don't then try to, you know, oh, thank you for coming up to my tent hug.

I'm just a little jokester from 2007. No, come on. And then do better. Listen, as a self-righteous person myself, I see that self-righteousness in others. And I say to them, do better. better, fuckers. No, it's just, it's condescending, you know. Your take on a Muppet Christmas Carol has put you in some very hot water, Kristen.

I know. And I've decided to just let you continue to have this take. Uh-huh. Because as the great Sun Tzu once said, never interrupt your enemy and they're making a mistake. Listen, I have the perfect way to make people stop being mad at me for saying that a Muppet Christmas Carol sucks. I can say all the reasons that it sucks And then I can just like look at the camera And be like, thank you for coming to my TED Talk

Oh, right And then everyone will know Oh, she's just a non-threatening little, you know Maybe she kind of likes them up at Christmas Carol I don't I think it sucks Norm Trooper recruitment has skyrocketed this past week I know

And in fact, for the end of the episode You know, I normally do like reviews and stuff I actually want to read some comments from our subreddit of people who are very upset about the Muppet Christmas Carol, and I want to roast them all. Anyhow. But in the meantime, I'm sorry, I have to tell you folks, you're going to have to listen to J.C. Penny Store.

Sorry to interrupt this completely unrelated podcast. We're really off the rails. How long have we been recording? 17 minutes. Good God, good God. We've got senioritis. That's the problem. It really is.

We got vitamin C's graduation song. in the background. As we go on. This is our final recording before we take a break. Norm, I'll never forget you. Okay, we're definitely going to stay together when we go away to college in separate states. No, not let's keep in touch. I'm giving you the, God damn it, do better, Norm.

I'm giving you the we're in love. We're definitely going to stay together. Oh, right. We're going to go to the same college. No, no, no. I'm going off to California. You're staying in our small town in Oklahoma, okay? But we're telling each other, oh, we're definitely going to stay.

together, I'm definitely not going to find, like, the first dude in the dorm and just go to lunch with him. Get your brains plowed out. Hey! Hey! It's a family show. Right. Sorry.

My apologies. Uh-huh. Speaking of... Speaking of shows, maybe we should start our show. Okay. But first, let's recap the last episode. Previously, on an old-timey podcast. We learned that James Cash Penny Jr., aka J.C. Penny, owned three Golden Rule stores in Kemmer, Rock Springs, and Cumberland, Wyoming.

His goal was to one day... Oh, that's not how you pronounce it. Which one? Which one? It's Rooksprongs. Rook sprongs? Oh, shit. I really should have consulted with the locals.

Every single word in this script I should have consulted with somebody. I am so glad that only the people who have video will see how hard I laughed at my own stupid-ass joke just then continue. Okay, well, J.C. Penny's goal was to one day own 50 stores. And to make that dream happen, Penny brought in new partners to the business. He wanted hardworking, ambitious, teetotelers. No smoking. No drinking.

No gambling. No jerking off in the back room. That seems like just a good rule for everybody. J.C. Penny had plenty of candidates to choose from. He was getting letters from young men all over the country who were eager to run their own Golden Rule store and learn from the best. In just three years, J.C. Penny increased his store ownership from three to 22. As the business got bigger, Penny realized he had to change the structure. He needed bigger loans from banks, more communication with his partners, and better deals with

manufacturers. So in 1911, he formed the J.C. Penny Company in Salt Lake City, Utah. Penny made himself the president and general manager of the company. The J.C. Penny Company was set up a little differently, though. We do things a little different. around here. Because J.C. Penny prioritized those partnerships. To him, they were the lifeblood of his business. Partners only got stock in their store. So when the store did well, they did well. It was a great incentive for partners to run their Golden Rule stores well and open up new locations. The expansion of the company was incredible. Eventually, J.C. Penny moved to New York City to be closer to bigger banks and bigger manufacturers. He changed the name of the Golden Rule stores to the

J.C. Penny Company. He opened warehouses across the country to get product to stores faster, and by 1929, there were 1,400 J.C. Penny stores. Obviously, J.C. Penny's business was a major success, but in his personal life, things were tough. In 1910, his first wife, Berta, who was instrumental in making the business a success, unexpectedly passed away. J.C. Penny was left a widower with two young sons. Three years later, his mother, Mary Fran, Francis Penny died at the age of 71. Then, in 1923, his second wife, Mary Kimball, also passed away unexpectedly. These terrible losses caused J.C. Penny to reflect on life.

What was the purpose of making all this money? What was life all about? After an eat-pray-pray-love kind of trip around the world, J.C. Penny found his answer. All that money he was making was for helping people. And that wasn't just talk. J.C. Penny practiced what he preached. He divested from the J.C. Penny Company and resigned as the president to allow new partners to rise up the ranks. He started Emadine Farms in New York to improve dairy cattle across the country.

That could also be Emadine Farms. Sure. I mean, who are we to say how to pronounce things? Real sensitive, you know. It could also be Farms. Pharms. He built the town of Penny Farms in Florida, a cooperative farming community that wanted to take the guest work out of agriculture. By the fall of 1929, J.C. Penny felt whole again. He had a third wife, Caroline Ottenreith, a woman 20 years younger than him. Sorry, Kristen. He had four wonderful

children and a fifth on the way. He had a beautiful 50-acre estate in White Plains, New York, in a winter home in Miami, Florida. He was involved in multiple charitable organizations that were making big differences in people's lives. And despite J.C. Penny taking a reduced role at the company, he was richer than ever before and a celebrated American businessman. But then, it all came crashing down. And that's where we will pick up our story today. I love a little adversity in my stories. Well, get ready. He's about to have a lot of it. Okay. Kristen! It's 1929, and the J.C. Penny Company is thriving, baby. It's in full swing, as you like to say. I do like to say that. The 1920s had been good for a lot of business.

actually. There was incredible economic growth, thanks to mass production and new technologies. People were spending, spending, spending on things like cars, radios, fashion, Kellogg's bait no more cereal, guaranteed to stop you from yanking that crank. That's enough, as what they said on the box. That was our first tagline. That's enough. There is also a growing shift in the retail business world. Chain stores were becoming all the rage. local small businesses simply couldn't beat their selection or low prices, and many were forced to close.

This continues to be a problem today. But anyway, the 1920s economy did wonders for the J.C. Penny company. They now had 1,400 stores across the country, 22,000 employees. It's wild to think that just 20 years earlier, J.C. Penny had only three stores. That is wild. Now, the company was huge, and that meant, Ooh, I think we have to restructure this thing again. So here's what they did. First, they moved the JCPenney Company to Delaware, the first state. Are you wondering why Delaware? Was there some kind of tax reason?

Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, you nailed it. Thank you. Delaware's kind of only known for two things, Kristen. Oh, wow. We're about to offend the three people in Delaware. Toll roads.

Yes. And being very business friendly. Okay. Delaware has incredibly friendly tax laws and inheritance laws for company stock, expedited business courts, no state income tax. You don't even need a business license in Delaware. Holy shit. And so that's why today, about 65% of U.S. corporations set up shop in Delaware. But to be clear, most companies don't have their offices in Delaware.

They just set up the business there and then they operate somewhere else. What a racket. Okay. I know. Well, that's what J.C. Penny did as well. Because of the company's rapid expansion, they had to set up regional offices for training, supplying stores, partner meetings to ensure everything operated smoothly. And then there's the biggest change of all. The J.C. Penny Company was going public. Oh, yeah. So this was kind of a difficult, complex change, because if you recall, the company had been set up in a way that store partners would own stock in their individual stores. J.C. Penny had always preached that a core value of the company was, quote, sharing in what one helped produce. But they encountered a problem, which I think you actually touched on last episode, Kristen. Some of these older store partners were just kind of sitting on their stores.

Sure. Not working. They retired. They were collecting checks. And they were preventing new partners from rising up and owning a store. Of course, if you go public, now you introduce common stock to the company, which could make the partnership program less attractive. So how do you incentivize partnerships while also going public?

The JCPenney Company set up different classifications of stock. So there were A shares and B shares. A shares were common stock that anyone could buy on the stock market. Hang on, B shares. You made me wake up at the crackadon and now you're telling me about A shares and B shares. Norm, I will say, I am really, really grateful to you for one thing. You asked a question that I was scared to death was not rhetorical. It was something like, how do you do this?

How do you take this public and ball? And I was like, oh, my God, seriously. And then you kept talking. I was like, oh, God bless this man. Anyway. Some people enjoy context, Kristen. In Pennsylvania, they pronounced it. Context.

Context. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. So you got your A shares, your B shares. The B shares were for store partners. They were way more valuable. They gave you voting power. And they paid out dividends. And so some companies today still do this like Berkshire Hathaway. You know, Kristen, I hate to brag on my father-in-law, D.P. Please don't. Did you know he is a B shareholder in Berkshire Hathaway? Yes. And everyone who knows him and has spoken to him for more than five minutes probably knows that fact as well. He loves to talk about it. Didn't he try to get a discount one time at Berkshire Hathaway store? Yes. He said, I don't usually do this.

No, he said something even douchier and even less true, which is, I hate to do this. And I was so embarrassed that I walked away. And if I could have walked off the face of the earth, I would have in that moment. Problem was you were in Kansas, and it would take you a while. It would have taken me quite a while. Yeah, he was at checkout, and he wanted a discount, right? Of course he did. And he said, I hate to do this, but I'm a Berkshire Hathaway B. Cheryl.

Which is basically the same as saying, I hate to do this, but I'm a special little rich boy. He should try that in Dairy Queen. You get some discounts on Blizzards. I think that's a Berkshire Hathaway company. Oh, my God. Here's the thing. I will say, I really hate it when people try to hide their privilege.

So at least he wasn't doing that. But my God, in moments like that, I'm like, maybe hiding your privilege isn't so bad. Maybe being a Nepo baby who's changed their last name to something innocuous isn't the worst thing. Yeah. Is that how embarrassed you are by your dad? I hate to do this. But my father is Harrison Ford. Oh.

Wow. Yeah, but I hate to mention it. But I would like 10% off of this coffee. I would like a ride on Air Force One. Hate to do this. Hate to do this. Hate to do this. Oh.

So yeah, they set up classifications of stock. And then they also set up profit sharing plans for employees. Commission for store managers. Ooh. That's great. That's pretty sweet. Yeah. But from now on, the company was responsible.

for new stores, not individual partners. And with all that business crap out of the way, Kristen, the J.C. Penny Company was ready to go public, baby. On Wednesday, October 23rd, 1929, the J.C. Penny Company officially hit the New York Stock Exchange at $106 a share. I did love that little pose you did. Yeah. And then literally the next day on third.

Thursday, October 24th, 1929. Oh. The stock market crashed. No. What the fuck. Oh, I wasn't even thinking. Oh. Literally the next day.

Oh. You talk about bad timing. Comically bad timing. You can't make this stuff up, folks. Holy. History hos might be asking, what the fuck happened? You lied, Normie C. You said the economy was doing really well.

It's true. It was doing well. folks, maybe a little too well. Let me feed your mind, body, and soul. Oh. With some context. Okay. Yes, the economy in the 1920s was popping like a bubble-wrap dolphin.

We're all thinking it. And during this time, a lot more middle-class folks, like you and me, Kristen, decided to get involved in stock trading. And the stock market was doing really well. In fact, in 1929, the market was having nine straight years of growth. So people were like, wow, this is like slam. dumb, easy money. The market just keeps going up no matter what. Buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. So many people went to their banks. They took out loans and they put that money into the stock

market because why not? Like the stocks were growing faster than the interest on the loan. So people were like, I'll just pay back the loan. No problem. And this led to stock prices being way overvalued. There is a speculation bubble because in reality, the economy was kind of slug. down. Like consumer spending was slowing down. Stock prices kept going up. And so top economists around the world were like, hmm, I feel like this isn't good. Like, something's going on. There's trouble brewing here. But rich folks brushed them off. They're like, nonsense, my good man, now pass me more of that Kellogg's bait no more cereal. Then on October 24th, 1929, the bubble burst. There is a huge sell-off of stocks. Ticker tapes.

couldn't even keep up with the trading. People had no idea what the price of a stock even was. The stock market value plunged 11% in one day. And this caused widespread panic. People were like, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. And that made the problem worse. Yeah. In just one week, the stock market lost $14 billion.

Oh, my God. And just for inflation, $261 billion. And you're saying this was all middle class people's fault. Exactly. I'm not blaming rich people. We never do. Poor and middle class people. How dare you get involved in the stock market?

Yep, yep. Good job, Norm. Mm-hmm. Great time for us to go on break, maybe hide out in a bunker for a while. Yeah, in the foothills of South Dakota or something. There we go. Wherever we're going.

Right. Still haven't checked that group text. I still don't know. Well, the problem is only going to get worse, Kristen. Some rich people who had dumped everything into stocks, They lost their fortune. There were reports of Wall Street bankers like leaping to their death from office buildings. All those bank loans that people took to buy stocks, yeah, they weren't getting paid back.

Banks ran out of money. They started closing. And back then, there was no deposit insurance. So ordinary families with money in their savings account, poof, it's just gone. The bank closed. That's terrifying. Yeah. Really helps you understand why so many old-timers were like, I've got my money in a coffee tin buried out back and I'm not telling anyone where it is.

That's right. It's four paces from behind the flex hose. Uh-huh. What year are we in, Norm? Well, they're like 90 now, so they have the flex hose. Okay, okay, gotcha. As a result, people stop spending money completely. Well, yeah, they didn't have it. Exactly. No more cars, no more appliances, no more clothes, no more vacations. People saved and scrimped every single dollar they could, and they hit it in their house under their mattresses because banks can't be trusted anymore.

The stock market crash and the resulting panic caused an economic depression, aka the Great Depression. Well, if it was so great, why was everyone so sad? Great zinger, Kristen. Thank you. Thank you. But it was an honest question. Who's the butt of that joke? From a stupid woman. So the government was like, we have a plan to fix this. We're going to do something called tariffs.

They're like, hey, these tariffs will bring employment and manufacturing to the United States, which will lift us out of the Depression. Jesus, Norm. What? Too soon. Well. Keep the tariff talk to yourself. Sorry. Time is a flat circle, Kristen.

History repeats itself. Okay. So, yeah, those tariffs did not help. When the U.S. What? Yeah. So the U.S. introduced tariffs.

Right. Great idea. The countries brought in retaliatory tariffs. You're kidding me. Which absolutely destroyed U.S. exports. Huh. Which, for some reason, made the Depression worse. Well, no one could see that coming.

This story sounds really familiar. If only we could learn something from it. Future topic? No thanks. The J.C. Penny Company had always been a pretty stable business in economic uncertainty, but this was unlike anything anyone had ever seen before, their stock price plummeted. The company tried buying back stock to try and boost the price up, but that didn't really help. They said, I hate to do this, but I now own

all the A shares. I really hate to do this. You know, when I read that they were trying to buy back stock, it reminded me of that show The Gilded Age. Yeah. Remember that guy that like he owned the railroad company and like some of his buddies tried shorting the stock and he was like how dare you i'm just going to buy as much stock as possible and then is the guy like killed himself or something boy i hope you all haven't seen the gilded age you don't plan to it's equally a great show and a bad show do love the gilded it does get cheesy but i mean it is fun love the outfits hell yeah so yeah they tried buying back stock didn't help still board members felt the company would come out on the other side You know, they had a lot of cash on hand.

They still had affordable merchandise for customers. And they were cash only. There's no shady credit deals going on here. People could trust the JCPenney company. So, yeah, the company was feeling, quote, guardedly optimistic. Oh. But the company's founder, James Cash Penny Jr., he was not feeling good at all. So what's up with our boy James Cash Penny Jr.?

Why was he worried? Well, everyone was worried. Well, he had a reason to be a little more worried. He may have made a series of risky investments. Why are you drumming your fingers like that as if you're the one who made those risky investments and you're debating between jumping out the window or telling me what happened? Please just tell me what happened. Take off.

You know, it's kind of not like J.C. Penny to make risky investments. He'd always been very frugal, thrifty. He didn't get involved in the stock market. He didn't like to speculate. He mostly focused on his company and his various charitable organizations, like the J.C. Penny Foundation, Emadine Farms, Penny Farms, Christian Herald Magazine. But in the 1920s, J.C. Penny took a big risk by investing a lot of money in Florida. Hello, Florida.

Wait, what do you mean? Okay, so J.C. Penny had the winter home in Miami. Right. He owned thousands of acres in Penny Farms, which is near Jacksonville, Florida. You know, he believed Florida was the future. He couldn't believe that men, quote, transformed a mangrove swamp into one of the most creatively beautiful reclamations of land ever known. And he thought, there's money to be made in Florida.

But the state just needs friends. It needs investors to believe in it. So that's what J.C. Penny did. He started investing. He started real estate speculating in the Miami area. He opened a new dairy company, foremost dairy's products, which delivered dairy across five southern states. He invested heavily into the City National Bank of Miami. J.C. Penny thought, it's only a matter of time. This area's going to be booming. But it didn't happen. Well, it did eventually. Eventually. We're in this time right now. Okay. Yep.

In 1926, a massive hurricane hit Miami. Category 4 hurricane. 150 mile per hour wins. As a non-threatening boy from North Carolina, who has experienced many a hurricane, that's what we call a big one, folks. Oh, it's a big one. That hurricane absolutely devastated the Miami area. 38,000 residents were displaced, untold number of people died.

And after that, many wealthy investors abandoned Miami. They're like, ooh, a little too risky. The weather is a little too unpredictable. But J.C. Penny didn't give up. He held on to his Florida investments. He poured more money into them. He said, quote, there was no question that an area so richly blessed by nature would recover.

Those continued investments required cash. And to get that cash, J.C. Penny started borrowing money from banks in New York. He used his J.C. Penny stock as collateral. Oh, no. All of this was happening. during the 1920s, a lot of economic growth, so Penny was like, this isn't too risky. But then, in October of 1929, the stock market crashed, and J.C. Penny's plan began to unravel. The value of J.C. Penny company's stock plummeted. It opened up on Wall Street in 1929 at

$106 per share. By the summer of 1930, it was worth $63 a share. By the end of 1930, it was down to $30 a Eventually, J.C. Penny's stocks were worth less than the $8 million loan he took out to fund his projects in Florida. And so the banks in New York took control of his company's stock, and they began selling it to recoup their losses. There was no hope of getting money from his Miami real estate investments. The hurricane had done severe damage. The Great Depression was in full swing, as you like to say, Kristen. there was no hope it was going to recover anytime soon, and then banks around the country began to fail.

J.C. Penny's bank, the City National Bank of Miami, was no exception to this. By December of 1930, a majority of its customers had withdrawn all of their money. J.C. Penny could not keep the bank afloat, and it closed. J.C. Penny was struggling. His credit was exhausted. He wasn't allowed to borrow money anymore. His family, which had recently added a new baby girl,

Carol Marie Penny, they were in danger of losing everything. J.C. Penny's business, fortune, and reputation were on the line. Eventually, the pressure got to him. In December of 1931, J.C. Penny suffered a nervous breakdown. He checked himself into the Kellogg Sanitarium. No way! In Battle Creek, Michigan. Oh, my gosh. Now, future topic for real.

Those Kellogg brothers, they were something. They sure were. Okay, but I have to disagree with your assessment here. Oh, yeah? Yeah, you were talking about how he was so risk-averse, blah, blah, blah. I'd say he was. No, he wasn't. What did he do?

That was so risky. Well, for starters, before he even got into this golden rule store business, he bought that butchery slash bakery business. And he was hanging on by a prayer. then he pissed off the one guy who was keeping him in business, so he lost everything. Like, kind of not intentionally lost everything, but very easily could have known. I'm going to do this thing that's going to make me lose everything. Yeah, I'd say that was risky, but that was when he was young and starting out, and I think he learned from that.

I'm just starting with this point. I would also say everything you have said about him reveals that he really admired his father. Oh, the lessons of his father, the lessons of his father. His father took massive risks that almost never paid off financially. I would argue they never paid off ever. What did he do that was so financially risky? He bought a second house in town that he absolutely could not afford. He got himself into such a situation that he had to tell his eight-year-old son, you've got to start buying your own clothes from now on, big boy. Yeah, but I don't, I don't think. He ran for office multiple times, lost multiple times. He left his

wife with a farm to run on her own. She had to figure it out. And she did figure it out. Yeah. To her credit. All that stuff, all that stuff builds character, though. No, I, here's the thing. I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm not even saying this is bad necessarily. I'm just saying this was a storm of Bruin to make J.C. Penny a guy who was not risk averse. So yes, he does the Golden Rule stores. He expands, expands, expands, expands. And obviously that worked out great. But I do think if you're the type of person who dreams big and dreams of expansion, you probably are not super risk averse. I mean, they expanded rapidly. But for a successful business, businessman to like not get involved in like stocks or like speculate on land or any of that. But you just said he did speculate on land. He did eventually. Yeah, in Florida.

Of all places. I'm just saying like the majority of his working career, he did play it safe. I mean, the fact that he was like cash only, no credit. Uh-huh. I mean, he had a very conservative-minded kind of business in my opinion. Okay. Maybe we're both right. I don't think we are.

Wow. No, I see what you're saying. So, yeah, I guess he did take some risks. He took a lot of risks. Yeah. I don't know. It's just, yeah, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

Are you going to sit with this for a minute? Let me sit with it for a minute. Yeah. Anyone who, I mean, and he has a rags to riches tail, anyone who goes from rags to riches, they can't be risk averse. I just don't think that they really truly can be. And I think he absolutely wasn't. I would argue that having these successful businesses and relying only on those businesses and for so long, not getting into investing, not getting into real estate.

That is itself also a risk to not diversify. Okay. So maybe I'm using the wrong word here. Maybe it's not so much a risky thing. Maybe the word is avocado. Maybe it's shendo. Yeah, maybe it's more like he was very conservative with his mind. money. And so for him to like dump a bunch of money into a, well, I guess not because, yeah, maybe I'm just wrong on this. You know what's funny is you said that and I thought, I once again think he's wrong. But how long are people going to continue to listen to us, argue back and forth

on this? But I mean, I would say the fact that he invested all this money in a town in Florida, he created a town and like it was this big charitable act that again is a risk yeah damn now i'd argue it's a great thing i mean giving money to charities that's a that's a great thing but it's also a bit of a risk because that's not money for you and your family later on that's true have i just spanked your bare ass and from this whole crowd i'm humiliated are dozens of listeners yeah i guess you're right I guess he was a risk taker. I don't know. It just didn't seem like when I learned he was like land speculating and he got involved in a bank and he like took out massive loans for cash for his personal little endeavors.

Like I just didn't seem like something he would do. It just seemed like, that's not like him to do that. Well, I also think your sources on this, like, you know, one big source was his book that he wrote about himself. Yes. And, you know, a lot of very positive sources, which I don't think there's need for negativity about this guy. But I do think a lot of this is shaped by how he wants to be perceived by others and how he wants to see himself. And I don't know that really anybody wants to be seen as like, yeah, I'm just a wild risk taker. I do whatever.

You know, you want to be seen as, no, I was thoughtful with everything I did. Yeah, I do think you're right, Kristen. And he did take risks. And I do think that you're also right. And then his autobiography, he definitely was like, this was a huge gamble and it didn't pay off. And it was a big mistake. Oh, so he says that in his autobiography. He does.

Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think you're right that like, yeah, he probably just didn't want to be seen as like. Oh, hell no. If I wrote an erratic businessman, he wanted to be seen as like this pure, very conservative. very smart businessman who never took risks and was very good with his money.

Well, and I, here's the thing. I do think he was smart. No, he was. And I don't think he was erratic. I think it's just like, well, like I said, I think anybody who gets this big from where he started, you've got to be willing to take a lot of risks. Yeah. I do think this was the biggest risk he ever took.

Sure. Did not pay off. But I also believe he was always very frugal and thrifty. Okay. From growing up poor. Mm-hmm. And so for him to just like dump money into something without like a backup plan. Yeah.

That was something he normally wouldn't do. Right. Because like when he opened new stores, he did it very intentionally. Right. And this just seemed like a, I'm just going to throw it out there and see what happens. Which also kind of makes sense because like once you get big enough, yeah, it doesn't feel like you're risking as much. Yeah.

And maybe it kind of got to his head a little bit with like the 1920s booming. Sure. And he was like, well, I just have so much money. I might as well. I'm permanently rich now. Yeah. Because like when he did the penny farms thing. Yeah.

I think he understood that like, yeah, if this fails, okay. Right. But like with the Florida thing, when you start taking out loans to pay for it and you put your backup plan as collateral company stock. Yeah. That's not, that's like not like him to do that. Yeah.

But you are right that like, yeah, he did take risks. I mean, hell, even him moving to Denver, Colorado all by himself is a risk. Sure. Just little old J.C. Penny. Yeah, he could have been eaten by a bear. I've been to Denver. Does that happen in Denver? All the time.

The population drops every year. from bears eating people they go to those trendy little bars and restaurants and they just start nibbling they'll say has anyone seen Adam oh my God Adam is Adam and then a bear walks by with a big Adam shaped belly and he's rubbing it

man my image was a lot less dark it was like whatever hat Adam had on the bear is now wearing it we don't know for sure how about both he's wearing the hat and rubbing his atom-shaped belly. I hate to say, that's kind of a hat on a hat to me. But, you know, whatever.

We can't stop this bear. Okay. Back to our story. He's in the Kellogg Sanitarium. And a bear is right behind him. Sorry. They shouldn't allow bears in the sanitarium. I shouldn't.

The Kellogg Sanitarium at Battle Creek, Michigan, was a world-renowned health resort run by Dr. John Harvey Kellogg. Oh. Yes, the same Kellogg Breakfast Serial Company, the makers of Bait No More cereal. Do you know there's like a myth that corn flakes was invented to like stop people from masturbating? Well, there is some truth to like a lot of the really bland food like oatmeal and stuff. It was like so you didn't excite your senses. Right.

Which is how I feel every time I eat oatmeal. I don't know how people do it. You get you get horno for. No, I get nothing. For Quakeros. I'm like, I feel nothing. I've got no drive, no nothing. What about the peaches and cream flavor?

You know what the best oatmeal was? The dinosaur egg ones. Do you remember those? I don't really remember those, but I can take, you said peaches and cream, and I can taste it right now. The dinosaur egg ones, you put the oatmeal in the bowl. It's dry, and there's little dinosaur eggs. You add the water, you microwave it.

When it comes out of the microwave, the eggs have hatched into little sugary dinosaurs. That sounds delicious. They're so good. And completely against the point of oatmeal, which is to not make you excited. I know. People will be freaking jerking off all over the place. All right. That's enough.

Didn't you cover the Kellogg brothers on your old decrepit rotting podcast? Yes, I did. And I loved it. And I remember at the time thinking, this John Harvey Kellogg fella, I need to know more about this man. He was ridiculous. Yeah. Talk about a chronic masturbator. I don't know that for sure, but I know it in my soul, kind of.

Because he was so obsessed with people not masturbating that, you know, it's one of those things where somebody is obsessed with something. And you kind of go, sir, is this really your obsession? Is this really, you're saying it's a societal problem. Right. Is it really a you problem? Oh. Oh, yeah. So anyway, that'll be a wild and wet episode.

Wet and wild episode. Well, it's like, you know, like people that like, they're like, oh, we got, we have to stop pornography. Yeah. Have to stop it. And they have like 500 terabytes of porn on their computer. Yeah, they're like, I hate pornography. It ruins everything. Think of the families.

Think of the. And can you imagine going up to someone at a protest and be like, we have seized your laptop. How quickly they would shit themselves. So J.C. Penny wasn't doing very well. He was nervous all day. Couldn't sleep. He had shingles on the entire right side of his body. He often wondered the halls of the sanitarium at night. But then, according to J.C. Penny, he experienced a miracle. While wandering the halls early one morning, he saw patients gathered in the sanitarium chapel. And they were singing. Penny said he hadn't heard some of those hymns since he was a boy in Hamilton, Missouri. He sat down in the back pew and in enjoyed the music. It brought him a lot of peace, and then one hymn in particular stuck with him. God will take care of you. When he heard that line, something woke up inside of him, and he was once again, filled with determination. Jay C. Penny came to the realization that, quote, if I had held myself responsible for such success as I had achieved, so too was I and I alone responsible for all the trouble that had descended upon me. Wow. But the great thing was that now I knew, God with his boundless and matchlessly patient love was there to help me. A weight lifted from my spirit. I came out of that room a different man, renewed.

I love that. You like that he takes responsibility for his failures as well as his successes? Yeah. Yeah. I think that can be a hard thing to do. Absolutely. Tough pill to swallow. Honestly, either way, too. I think a lot of people, you know, if you've got the low self-esteem, you think your success is all luck or, oh, it's the other people. And then any failures, like, well, here's how I did it.

Here's how I messed it all. But to accept responsibility for both and to at the same time acknowledge a higher power, like, yeah, I'm not ultimately in control of everything. That's a great mindset. Yeah. And it's all thanks to corn flakes. No. He ate Bait No More cereal. Oh.

Different product. Well, that's a rose by any other name. Bait no more cereal. That's enough. I'm sorry. I'm just picturing that's enough kind of like the more you know. Yeah. Well, go where, you know, the letters get bigger.

Right. We're all picturing it. Right. What's the mascot on Bait No. No more cereal. Oh. Okay. Well, I feel like I'm only going to say this because of our previous conversation.

But I will be honest, I'm picturing a stern bear. A stern bear? Kind of a only you can prevent forest fires vibe. Like he's looking at you, like you're responsible for everything on the planet. Why a bear? Because we've been talking about bears. What's that bear cereal mascot? Yeah, golden crisps, the sugar bear.

Hold on. Let me look him up. Maybe he can be the mascot. He's not wearing pants. No, no, this is not the bear for the job. Okay. This is absolutely not. He's casual.

He's got his eyebrows raised. He looks like he wants you to masturbate. Norm, you picked the worst bear for this. He does have a look in his eye. No, I'm talking Smokey the Bear. You just try masturbate in front of Smoky the Bear. I dare you to prevent Forest Fires and masturbate in front of me. I dare you.

This is a disgusting episode. It is. You know, many biographies on J.C. Penny claimed that this event made him a born-again Christian. Well, he was always Christian. Right. So I think that's inaccurate to say. He was always very religious. Yeah.

I just think that experience brought him hope, and it got him out of a dark place. Over the next two weeks, J.C. Penny recovered. His shingles disappeared. He was able to sleep again. Doctors cleared him, and by Christmas of 1931, J.C. Penny was. back in White Plains, New York, celebrating Christmas with his family. J.C. Penny's miracle at the sanitarium would not fix his financial situation. In fact, his financial situation was only going to get worse. But he was no longer afraid. His faith in God was stronger

than ever. His optimism and confidence returned. He said, quote, when I accepted the fact that disastrous events had not destroyed any essential capacities of mine, I began to fight. Fighting kept me going on and going on kept me fighting. Could you say that again? What I began to accept. When I accepted the fact that disastrous events had not destroyed any essential capacities of mine, I began to fight. Fighting kept me going on and going on kept me fighting.

Norm, right now you and I have a very Oprah Winfrey, Dr. Phil, 2002 vibe, where you're hitting me with some knowledge, and I have to have to have. have you repeated again because it's just so good. That is great. Chicken soup for the middle-aged woman's soul. It's going to get problematic any minute now. With an introduction by J.C. Penny. You like that?

I love it. Yeah. I mean, that truly is chicken soup for the middle-aged lady's soul. It's like, okay, I've been through something bad, but it didn't destroy my ability to get out of it. That's right. That's great. going through a divorce, people think I'm suspicious now, but I will fight on. And in fact, maybe I am a little suspicious.

Maybe just a little bit. Afterward, J.C. Penny had to make a series of tough financial decisions to keep his family afloat. He sold his winter home on Bell Isle in Miami, Florida. I'm sorry. Poor J.C. Penny. I was going to say, I have been feeling bad for him, but then the tough financial decision. Yes, yes. You know, we all do shed a tear when you have to sell the second home.

Suffering from success. I guess they'll have to live in that shitty, massive mansion. 50-acre estate in White Plains, New York. It is a tragedy. Yeah. He cashed out his life insurance policy. He called on his friends for personal loans. But they were happy to help him because J.C. Penny had always been there for them.

and they were ready to return the favor. And they had money? Yeah. Okay. Jay C. Penny also had to curb some of his charitable work. He handed over Christian Herald magazine to a friend so it could continue to operate. He shut down the J.C. Penny Foundation. He withdrew from the Penny Farms Project, including the retirement community.

And in turn, many farmers left the area when they found out J.C. Penny was no longer involved. Well, who was running it? It was basically a town now. Oh, so it was self-sustaining. Kind of. So J.C. Penny had like an agricultural institute where, you know, farmers could get help and rent equipment and get soil analysis and all that stuff. So J.C. Penny just shut that down because he like couldn't help anymore. So it's basically just a farm, a bunch of farmers out on their own now.

Right. And so, yeah, a lot of people left when they found out J.C. Penny wasn't going to help anymore. Sure. But that retirement community stayed open because they were able to support. themselves financially, and it's still around today, as we learned last episode. The Penny family was now living full-time on their 50-acre estate in White Plains, New York. Disgusting. I'm so sad for them.

I wish those stupid middle-class people hadn't brought the Great Depression upon everyone. I know. Ruin it for the rich people. Well, you're going to hate this next part. He had to get rid of all of his servants. Listen Let's have a moment of silence He's got the spreadsheets

He's doing the budget He's like Caroline I think we got to get rid of these servants We're in the red We're going to have to make our own beds He got rid of all of his servants This is something interesting He closed off most of the house

Except like two or three rooms I guess just you know Less to maintain If you just don't go in that part of house? I guess I was thinking about heating and cooling. Yeah, I guess that too. But yeah, heating and cooling, cleaning, maintaining. Yep. Also, sadness. It does feel like there would be some additional sadness. Empty boring rooms. Yeah. J.C. Penny started a garden to grow their own food. He raised a little bit of livestock. He also went back to work full time at the J.C. Penny

company. For the very first time, he took a salary. He served as chairman of the board. the company spokesperson, and traveled across the country to check on stores. And speaking of those stores, the J.C. Penny Company was weathering the storm of the Great Depression. Total sales were down, and in turn, the company slowed down their expansion. By 1932, company stock was worth $13. Oof. But that stock price in no way reflected the actual value of the J.C. Penny Company. They actually did pretty decent during the Great Depression. they focused on getting more low-cost goods into stores for consumers,

and because they were cash only, you know, people could pull a $5 bill from their nasty, stinky, sweat-stained mattress and purchase a brand-new pair of bed sheets. Good grief. At the same time, JCPenney stores unloaded their inventory of high-priced items. They marked them down. Of course, the stores never claimed they were on sale because they didn't want to cheapen the experience. Okay. They said it was big values.

That's the same thing, sir. It would fool me. Big values, baby. If someone slashed a price and said big value and you said, oh, it's on sale and they said, shut your mouth. It's just a big value. I think their whole thing is like, we're not marking down the price. We're just selling this high priced item at a low cost, big values.

Okay. Because they're not saying, they're not saying like it was previously $100. Now it's 50. They're just saying, we have this item, and it's 50 bucks. You know what? Big values, baby. As a woman who shops way too much at Costco, I should not have been skeptical of this. Absolutely.

I understand big values. I apologize. Yes. The company also did a little rebranding. New stores were being called simply pennies. By 1934, profits for the J.C. Penny Company had surpassed their pre-depression totals. They had officially survived the Great Depression. Depression!

And they were back to making money. Open up those rooms. Hire back the servants. Wow. It's like you're predicting the future. That's what he did. Sure. As the economy crawled out of the Great Depression, so too did J.C. Penny.

He never regained his vast fortune from a couple years ago. But thanks to that company's salary, rebuying stock and dividends from his dairy farms, J.C. Penny and his family were able to live a pretty comfortable lifestyle. Very comfortable. Let's be real. He settled back into his normal routine, only on a much smaller scale. You know, he went to work, he did charity work, he raised livestock, he did dairy farming. That experience of almost losing everything changed J.C. Penny. He was now much more cautious with his money. His daughters, Carol and Mary, later said that his thriftiness reached a whole new level. At the family,

home in White Plains, New York. He did a ton of work himself. He pulled weeds. He removed rocks from fields. He saved every bit of paper and ribbon. J.C. Penny told his children that no matter how much money they had, it was wrong to be wasteful. Like the OG Captain Planet here. Yeah. Yeah. J.C. Penny said that the Great Depression taught him that, quote, a man will be a failure in life if he can be known for nothing but his wealth. We live in what is generally acknowledged to be a materialistic age. Yet I see many signs that people do care more about what a man does to serve his times than about his wealth and dollars. For the remainder of his life, J.C. Penny focused on giving more of himself rather than money to help others.

And with his newfound appreciation for the Lerd, he put most of his time into faith-based organizations. J.C. Penny worked with groups like the layman's movement for a Christian world, the Christian Herald Association, the YMCA. Historian Mary Elizabeth Curry said that J.C. Penny, quote, had traveled full circle back to his heritage as the son, grandson, and great-grandson of preachers. During the 1940s, as J.C. Penny approached his 70th birthday, he continued to work full-time for the J.C. Penny Company. He was mostly known for being the spokesperson and visiting stores. You know, he advised store managers, he greeted customers, he sold merchandise. At a store in Des Moines, Iowa, he taught a sales clerk how to wrap a shirt in a gift box using the least amount of ribbon and paper. The clerk, a young man named Sam Walton, was thankful for the help.

Ew, okay. Yeah. So Sam Walton got his start, J.C. Petty. You know what? The more people who reach out after this series, I'm convinced everyone on earth had their first job at J.C. Pity, except for the two of us. It seems like everyone got their start at J.C. Penny.

I wouldn't have even dreamed of applying at J.C. Penny. I thought I was not fancy enough to work there. You knew you weren't fancy enough. I was working at Dairy Queen, okay? The Hot Eat section. Sure, sure. The J.C. Penny Company continued to grow with more stores, more employees.

They created a retirement plan, which included a pension. They enacted a mandatory retirement age, 60, to allow younger employees to rise up. Wow. They sold company stock to employees at a discount. Store managers were getting one-sixth to one-third of store profits. The JC Penny Company also maintained their focus on quality merchandise at affordable prices. At a certain point, it became more profitable to just buy the manufacturer, rather than continuing to purchase from them.

Sure. So the J.C. Penny Company started acquiring private brands like TownCraft Men's shirts, townclad suits and coats, marathon hats, nationwide sheets, payday work clothes, and my absolute favorite, gay mode, hosiery. Gay mode? Gay mode hosiery. Which sounds like a difficulty setting in a video game. Are gay in mode two words or one?

One word, gay mode hosiery. Yeah, okay. Gotcha. Of course, you know, when we were kids, J.C. Penny also had private brands. Arizona trading company. Yeah. Yeah.

St. John's Bay. Yes. We remember it well. There was a women's suits line called like Worthington. Yeah, Worthington. One of my first skirts that I got when I worked at the newspaper was a Worthington. Really? Yes.

Oh, so you're a penny shopper, huh? Well, hell yeah, I was. And to make sure those clothes were the best, the J.C. Penny Company opened a testing laboratory. There they tested for things like durability, fading, shrinkage, flammability, and more. J.C. Penny was big on this testing laboratory because he was like, we can't claim we sell the best product if we don't know it's the best product. But then in 1941, the company had to shift its priorities when the United States entered World War II. Unlike Kristen, J.C. Penny cared greatly about this war. It's World War I that I don't give a shit about.

I feel like you say you didn't care about World War II either. I think the official canon is you think World War I is boring and you don't care about World War II. I am now officially nervous because I've realized I've said some things. I also went for a Muppet Christmas Carol in this episode. and I'm not sure what's going to tip me over the edge to where I just lose everybody. Kristen's Night Guard is in dire straits.

We need you. You've got to do a recruitment poster or something. Well, you've got to do some PR spins on this Muppet Christmas Carol take. I can't. That movie sucks. As a child, I knew that it sucked. Wow. Okay.

Should be a magical time for a child to watch a Muppet Christmas Carol. Unless that child is too sophisticated. Oh, you were too fancy and cool for a Muppet Christmas Carol. That's right. Okay. I never thought about that. Mm-hmm. You should think about it.

J.C. Penny believed that the company should focus on helping the war effort. The new company-wide theme was Thrift. So they halted expansion. They bought war bonds. They focused on providing affordable necessities to families. During the war, many employees were drafted in the most. military service. As a result, many women stepped into roles previously unavailable to them, like store managers. And you're not going to believe this, Kristen, but these women did a good job.

What? Yeah. Hmm. Company president Earl Sams claimed that penny women kept the company in business. Shocking. Because they were operating their entire careers in gay mode. That gay mode hosiery. That's right. Mm-hmm. Sadly, many of those same women who, you know, kept the company in business, they lost those jobs when the men returned from war. Yeah. Yeah. Sucks real bad. After the war, the United States was the leader in a new world order. The country had drastically shifted from a rural, agricultural economy to a more urban industrial economy. And the J.C. Penny Company was ready to move forward into a new era. But they faced stiff competition from other department stores. The two big ones were Sears and Montgomery Ward.

The competition had mass distribution systems, low prices, often lower than JCPenney. They also had catalogs, which accounted for one-third of their total sales. Sears and Montgomery Ward also sold more stuff. They sold furniture, appliances, tools, auto parts, paint. People could come to their store and get just about anything. And if they didn't have the money, they could use credit. Oh, yeah. J.C. Penny stores were modest in comparison.

They focused on the basics. No fancy buildings. No stores overflowing with all sorts of merchandise. No credit, cash only. J.C. Penny said his store was for, quote, people who live simply but well. It's a romantic vision of a business, but maybe it's not realistic. Jayce Penny's ways were considered old-fashioned.

He was 70 years old now. Perhaps he saw the writing on the wall. Maybe it was time to take a step back again to let others take his place, you know? And so in 1946, J.C. Penny resigned as chairman of the board. However, others in charge didn't want him to leave the company completely because he truly was the face of the company. He was a celebrated figure in the business world. Board members worried that if he left completely, the stocks would just plumbly. it and it would hurt the business.

Sure. And so J.C. Penny was named the honorary chairman of the board. I think this makes sense. It's a branding thing. It's a PR thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a perfectly cromulent role in the company. If you say cromulent one more time. You know what? Your mission on this break is to eradicate the word cromulent from your vocabulary. It's a real word. It's been added to the dictionary. Okay. That's enough.

That's it up. Damn, we got to get that cereal going. I know. J.C. Penny loved his new job. It was a lot less stressful. He no longer had any say. Well, yeah, it wasn't a real job. Kind of.

That's like me and these podcasting weeks where you're telling the story. I'm like pretending I'm stressed about stuff, but really, I don't have a real job this week. Hey, you put in a lot of work, my dear. No, I do. We are partners. You're right. Sometimes you present, sometimes I present, but we're always both working hard. That's true. That's true.

I'm being self-deprecating. Yeah, you're being a little hard on yourself. When I'm secretly awesome. There you go. It's weird how big and strong and tough you are, talking about a Muppet Christmas Carol and how much you hate it. But then when it comes to your work, you're like, ugh. Well, you know, the most judgmental people also judge themselves the harshest. That is true.

So he no longer had any say in the daily operations of the J.C. Penny company. He owned maybe like 1% of the total stock now. But, you know, in turn, he got to dedicate more time to his family and to helping other people. At work, he mostly traveled the country, oftentimes with his wife Caroline, to celebrate new J.C. Penny store openings. There were ceremonial ribbon cuttings, meet and greets with customers, and photo ops for newspapers. J.C. Penny would stand behind sales counters. Selling merchandise to customers, smiling for the camera. Yeah.

And headlines would say, salesman Penny, sells again. When he wasn't working for the company, he was working for himself. J.C. Penny gave lectures and talks. His most popular speech was Christian Principles in Business. In 1951, he gave that speech more than 200 times across the country. Dear God. Kristen, I've got us tickets to a great event tonight. J.C. Penny's giving us.

giving a talk called Christian Principles and Business. Okay, my request. At the T-Mobile Center. My request is that we go early in this tour. Have you ever been around someone who has given the same presentation a million times? So it gets kind of like... They're bored, you're bored, we're all bored. By the 172nd presentation.

Yeah. It's to the point that they will hold for laughter that is no... longer there. It's muscle memory. Sometimes I wonder if stand-up comedians feel that way, because they'll perform an act across the country. And I'm like, by the time they come to Kansas City, I'm like, am I getting like the rough version of this stand-up? Okay. If it's done right, no. If it's done right, a person can give the same speech or whatever a million times. as long as they're invested in it and they're actually paying attention to the audience, I think it can be fine. But I'm talking about more like, I've been in corporate settings where someone, they think we don't know that this PowerPoint from 2007 is just being lightly dusted off and represented.

And it's terrible. They don't care and therefore no one else cares. That's more what I'm talking about. Yeah, you're right. And it's not like, it's not like these presentations are getting like feedback from the audience. Right. You killed it with that intro, that intro slide, man. I laughed so hard at that pie chart.

No, no. Just flew in from Connecticut. And boy, my arms are tired. But yeah, stand-up comedians, you know, they definitely like modify their act as they go. But I mean. Figure out what works, you know. But, you know, yeah, if someone doesn't care, then it just shows. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah. You're right. Boy, the number of times you've said you're right on this episode in a kind of dejected tone. The whole like J.C. Penny didn't take risks thing. I just felt like, damn, she is right. I bought into his propaganda too much when reading his book. Is that why you look so ashamed? See, I don't.

Yeah. I don't say that shit to make you feel like ashamed. It's more like. No, I know. I felt like J.C. Penny duped me a little bit. That's all. He was a great salesperson. tricked me.

Yeah. But no, you're right. And it's all stuff we learned from this series. Yeah. Yeah, he did take risks. I should have listened to my own damn episode. Wow. Yeah.

Well, thank you for bringing that up. You're welcome. Yeah. J.C. Penny also became quite a writer. He wrote articles for Christian Herald magazine. In 1950, he wrote his first book, the autobiographical, 50 years with the Golden Rule. Ooh. Which I fell for hookline and sinker.

Oh, my gosh. You do not need to. be this ashamed. J.C. Penny also focused on his charitable work again. His family relaunched the J.C. Penny Foundation. They funded organizations that supported education, religion, health, children. In 1949, the foundation fully funded the construction of J.C. Penny High School in Hamilton, Missouri. The school is still running today.

Very good. With his extra time, J.C. Penny enjoyed time with his family. They downsized from their massive 50-acre estate and, White Plains, New York. No. Oh, no. They got a modest apartment in Manhattan. Oh, yeah, I'm sure.

Yeah, it just had six bedrooms this time, not eight. Yeah, that's really sad. Jay C. Penny saved money by taking the bus to work. On his days off, he liked to take Caroline to the opera. If the hustle and bustle of the city got to be too much, sometimes they escaped to a waterfront house in Green Farms, Connecticut, or to the family farm. in Hamilton, Missouri. Jay C. Penny always felt good on the farm. Yeah. In the winters, the pennies traveled to Arizona or California. Jaycey Penny didn't want to go back to Miami. He was kind of

bitter about what happened to him down there. But the bitterness always faded whenever he got to spend time with his children and his grandchildren. That's when he was the happiest. His kids were all grown up now. His first child, Roswell Penny, was living in Florida, working as a farmer and a realtor. His second child, J.C. Jr., had sadly passed away at the age of 34 from a pneumonia. I thought you were going to say 43, and I was going to flip this table. That is a number that comes up a lot in this series. Yeah. He was buried next to his mother, Bertha Penny, in Salt Lake City. His third child, Kimball Penny, had served bravely in the U.S. Navy during World War II. And was now... I know he shit his pants. Sorry.

What? Shit his pants. I heard nothing of the sort. I just, I feel like sometimes people just served bravely. Uh-huh. Just, you know, to everybody. Hey, he was a lieutenant. He was, he commanded a boat. No, full respect, full respect.

That was just a joke. He served bravely, aka he hid in a corner and shit his pants. Yeah, he served in the Navy during World War II. He was living and working in San Francisco. His fourth child, Mary Francis Penny, was in college, the very first member of the Penny family to attend college. Wow. Yeah.

It was clear she inherited her father's drive and ambition because she didn't just go to any college, Kristen, like Simmons. Simmons is the Harvard of Boston. We're all saying that. Yeah. Yeah. You're ready to... Did she go to actual Harvard?

You're ready to feel that feeling of, you know, comparison as the thief of joy? Oh, God. Mary Frances Penny got into... MIT. Oh, shit. A very rare accomplishment for women at the time. She was one of 12 female students. Holy shit.

They didn't even have dormitories for women. Yeah, that's nice. Mary Penny would later get her doctorate in chemistry from Oxford University. No one's ever heard of that shit hole. Uh-oh. She's getting upset, folks. She's not better than me. She became a teacher who would later serve as the first female president of the MIT Alumni Association.

Cool. His fifth and final child, Carol Penny, also attended college. I think they called them the youngest child, not the final child. That was his last child. Well, yeah, but would you call yourself your parents final child? I am the final child. That is the weirdest way of putting it. It's got a dramatic flare to it.

It's super dramatic. It's the most dramatic. Okay. I'm the premier child of my family. World premiere. Yeah. Kristen. And you are the final child in your line.

Let me see. The final child. Oh, shit. What's the middle child get? Nothing. Once again, nothing. Yeah. Okay.

His fifth and youngest child, Carol Penny, also attended college, Stanford University. Okay. She got married and traveled the world, working for the United Nations in various refugee camps. After returning home, she got involved in civil rights work in the South, marching and protesting with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Well, holy shit, all right. Yeah. That is some final child stuff. Yeah, his daughters were like kicking ass.

Meanwhile, his sons shot their bell bottoms, right? His sons did not want to get into the business like they're dead. And I do wonder, so the one thing I noticed was when he had. his sons, he was like full on working at the J.C. Penny Company. But when he had his daughters, he had, you know, taken a step back. He wasn't working as much. And so I just think he maybe didn't spend as much time with his sons. Yeah. And maybe they're like, I don't want that life. I never really saw my dad. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's an interesting thing. Purely a theory on my part, but I'm just guessing because, you know, I did think it was interesting.

his sons didn't get into the business. Oh, it's fascinating. Yeah. Because he had three sons? Mm-hmm. Yeah. None of them went into business at all, right? They went into business, but not the J.C. Penny business.

One went into the Navy. What did the other two do again? One was a citrus farmer and a realtor. J.C. Jr., who passed away, I'm not sure what he did. Okay. I couldn't really find out what he did. But I do know one worked as a citrus farmer, got involved in insurance, was a realtor. Yeah.

But yeah, did not work for the J.C. Penny Company. I do think it's interesting. The boys could have followed in his footsteps. The girls, I'm sure, you said it yourself, J.C. Penny, like the company, women got into management for a brief time during a war and then were kicked out. Right. So in theory, if you're the daughter of J.C. Penny, you've got a better shot than anybody else. God, I hope so. It's interesting because in a way there's some freedom there.

As the daughter, okay, there's no expectation that I'm going to go into this company. And so instead, I can go kick-ass, take names at literally anything else. Yeah. MIT, Stanford, civil rights, Oxford, which no one. One's heard of. Yeah. United Nations work across the world. I wonder if there was more freedom.

Oddly. I mean, that's a weird thing to say. I was just like blown away by like what his daughters were doing. But I do think you're onto something about maybe how he behaved and how he was when he was raising his boys. Maybe he was also really hard on the boys in a way that he might not have been on his daughters. Yeah. you know, his dad was hard on him. Yeah.

I do remember reading when he had his first daughter, Mary Francis Penny. He was, in his autobiography, he was just like over the moon to have a daughter. Anyway, so yeah, J.C. Penny's kids are out there kicking ass, taking names. And meanwhile, the company was changing. By 1957, they had 1,694 stores in all 48 states. total sales in the billions, an annual profit of $49 million, adjust for inflation, $560 million in profit. J.C. Penny was the largest retail outlet in the world for work clothes, women's dresses, blankets, sheets, and textiles. And they adapted to new shopping trends. They saw a larger influx of wealthy customers, white-collar workers, as opposed to blue-collar workers.

Fashion was now a top priority in merchandising. People wanted suits, they wanted dresses, they wanted sporting clothes. And thanks to a post-war War II housing boom, J.C. Penny stores were expanding into suburbs and shopping centers of big cities. But despite this, J.C. Penny still lagged behind the competition. They were the third largest non-food retailer. They were behind Sears and Montgomery Ward. executives believed now was the time to make a major change in order to keep up with the competition and it was perhaps the biggest change in the company's history they decided to start testing credit what year are we in nineteen fifty eight okay when j c penny heard the news he said hell no no no no he was firmly again Against credit. But no one asked you because you're the honorary chair. That's right.

Yeah, it would be like if Tony the Tiger said, you know, Kellogg's needs to stop. I hope he's a little more well-spoken than this. Has he prepared some remarks? This is like me giving a Patreon plug. It'd be like if Tony the Tiger was like, Kellogg's needs to raise employee wages. Like, no one gives a shit when you say, Tony, you're just. just the freaking mascot. You know, you could have said

if Tony the Tiger said, raise wages. They're grossly inadequate. Joe, don't help Norm out on that edit. Don't... Joe, I know you're big fan of a Muppet Christmas, Carol. Joe. Joe, God help me.

The dose of... Help a bro out. Past, present, and future Christmas. I don't know. They're all coming for you. if you help Norm out with that edit. He's going to help me. He's going to make it sound flawless.

I don't know if that's possible. Norm nailed it with that Tony the Tiger. Joe doesn't have magic. It's AI. Normal editing equipment. No, Premiere has AI function now. It'll all sound beautiful. I'm going to look.

My muscles are going to be huge when AI goes over. JC Penny was like, hell no, we're not doing credit. Growing up in Hamilton, Missouri, credit had ruined the lives of many farmers. While J.C. Penny built up his golden rule stores, he saw his competitors closed their stores when, like, miners failed to pay on their credit. Well, they shouldn't have been selling to kids. Ooh, a sophisticated joke. Little Johnny, I don't think you know what you're doing with that pickax.

Yeah. Hell, the freaking Great Depression was fueled by loans to buy stock. What? I just, nothing. I just really enjoyed. the sentence, hell, the freaking great depression. Gosh, darn it. Now, JC Penny didn't consider all credit bad. I mean, he took out loans. Sometimes it was necessary for a business to operate. You know, you got to buy merchandise.

You got to open up a new store. What if you got like a bunch of pubs and you need laser hair removal? You've got to get the loan. We get it. Yeah, three easy payments. You wish. Oh, man. How many pubs did he remove?

You know, he just didn't believe it was morally right to offer credit to customers because he was like, it will cause them to buy things they don't need. It's going to create debt. It's going to create financial strain on families. Cash was tried and true. It's a good ethical way to do business. What do you think of that? It's a little hypocritical just because he used credit himself. Right. But I do see what he's saying where it's like if a business wants to take credit to operate, it affects the business. Whereas like if an ordinary family takes credit, it can like hurt working class families and poor families. I get what he's saying, but it is a little hypocritical. I mean, it's also pretty paternalistic, I think.

Well, it's that thing we talked about last week of control. Yeah. Yeah. Because who are you to say how much is too much risk for me? You know? Yeah. He was just trying, you know, that was like a moral thing for him. And he had always run his stores that way.

I got to do the morally right thing. And so he thought, I think credit is morally wrong for my customers. But not for him. No. And I think for him it was like, yeah, if I take out a loan to buy all this merchandise, I'm willing to take the hit if it doesn't go well, but at least it's not affecting. Like,

I guess he just didn't want to see people take out credit to buy like clothes. But, I mean, if somebody does take out credit to buy clothes and they're making that same calculation in their head of like, yeah, if this goes south for me, I'll take the hit. Yeah, no, I totally get it. Yeah.

The other thing that affected him, and I mentioned it earlier, is like, yeah, He saw other stores where, like, they gave miners credit or railroad workers credit. And then, oops, the mine closes down. The railroad goes under. And that credit never gets paid back. Right. The store is affected in order to raise money.

They raise prices for other customers who maybe didn't pay on credit. See, now that sounds like the real businessman's argument. That was his argument. Yeah. It's irresponsible customers take out credit. It affects people who don't use credit. Okay. Because I have to raise prices.

Uh-huh. But it is a little hypocritical because, yeah, he's taking out loans to operate his business. But either way, he's a big fan of cash only. However, consumers around the country felt very differently from JCPenney. Many families were now buying stuff on credit. Sears and Montgomery Ward offered credit. It was becoming a normal part of life. in the United States. And adding credit to J.C. Penny stores would entice more customers.

J.C. Penny had no choice but to go along with it. He was the Tony the Tiger of J.C. Penny now, as we've talked about. Although opposed to the idea, he continued his role as a company spokesman, and he talked to customers and stockholders about the credit change. Did they take him seriously? J.C. Penny? Yeah. Absolutely. Even when he was giving these lectures and he had no shirt on, just a handkerchief, right? He was nude. That's what Tony the Tiger wears, right? Am I making that out?

No, you're right. Okay, okay. I hate credit. Jay C. Penny, I think we would be able to listen to your points more if you had your nipples covered, man. Oh, man. Now I'm imagining J.C. Penny naked. Thank you for that. Yeah, listen to you acting like this is the first time you've imagined Jason.

You're right. I imagined it many times. Adding credit to stores wasn't the only big change. During the 1960s, the J.C. Penny Company started their catalog business. Customers could order a plethora of new items and have them shipped directly to them or to stores for pickup. Kristen, I believe your grandmother worked in the catalog department of J.C. Penny, right? She sure did. And she loved it, right?

Hell yeah. She, no, well, I was about to say no one loved J.C. Penny more than she did. But honestly, I think a lot of people who worked at J.C. Penny really loved. loved it there. My grandma loved working in that catalog department. And oh my gosh, she kept the catalogs. First, we threw them all away. But I mean, I remember flipping through the catalog as a little girl and being dazzled by the array of offerings. Oh, my God. Look at this Worthington skirt. I thought it was pretty glamorous, Norm. Luxury, Ray. Gay mode hosiery. Yeah.

Jaycey Penny also started opening a new kind of store. They were called full-line stores. They sold everything, clothes, appliances, auto parts, furniture, hardware, sporting goods. They sold auto parts? Yeah. Full-line department store. You could buy a JC Penny branded gun, which is amazing. Yes.

When I heard that, I thought of a new story. You know, guy murders, three people. Lord a man. They recover the gun. Uh-huh. It's a 1980 J.C. Penny sporting rifle. That he bought through the catalog. And we ask ourselves, should you be able to order a gun through a catalog?

The answer is, yes. Ain't that America. Ain't that America? The full line stores also had photography studios. Beauty salons. Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, man, I remember the days when every department store had its own salon.

Yeah, freaking Walmarts started getting beauty salons. Okay, and that was nuts. No one needs, I mean, who, okay. Uh-oh. Uh-oh, here comes the judgment. Well, no, here comes the facts. Boom, here comes the facts. And logic.

Here's the thing. Department stores did it right. The salon was like kind of tucked away. You went in there if you wanted to go get some salon services. We get it. The Walmart salons? It used to be. You could be checking out.

Buying your eggs, your auto parts, your gun, whatever you bought. And you just glance aside. And there's some woman in a massage chair getting her calluses buffed off. Yeah. Right there. A little too out in the open. Should have hit it from the customer. way too out in the open.

Okay. As someone who takes her calloused feet to professionals every now and again, the last place I would want to be is on display somewhere. Listen, I totally get it because you know what else was out in the open in Walmarts? What? The subways. And how embarrassing. Yeah.

Me ordering two footlongs for lunch and everyone sees me. And they see you sadly eat both. of them in one long line. I would go to my car and eat them. No one's going to see me. Well, then everyone just assumes you have a friend. That was the idea. Just picking this up for me and my best friend.

I love myself. So yeah, these full line stores, shopping malls in particular, really liked those full line stores because they considered them anchor stores, which when I heard that term, I was like, I know exactly what they're talking about. Well, yeah, we all do. Well, I'm a little behind the times, you know. Well, how far behind the times are you? By the end of the 1960s, J.C. Penny had 176 full-line stores across America.

How many J.C. Penny neighborhood markets were there? Okay, you laugh, but J.C. Penny did buy a grocery store chain. Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah, they bought a grocery store chain. Should have been called J.C. Penny, yum, yum. Yum, yum. In 1965, J.C. Penny celebrated his 90th birthday. Good grief.

He happily declared he would live to be 100 years old. Well, it seems like you're jinx in it, but okay. Incredibly, he was still working. That year, he traveled 50,000 miles across the country, visiting J.C. Penny stores, speaking at conventions, appearing on radio and TV programs. Kristen, I believe your grandmother fondly remembered J.C. Penny visiting the store she worked at. Of course she did. Yeah.

Imagine freaking Tony the Tiger knocking on our door, walking in. I start screaming. Mm-hmm. It'd be a big deal, right? If Tony the Tiger, a cartoon character, walked into our home? I'm talking about J.C. Penny now. Yeah, no, that would be a big deal. Yeah.

His celebrity status was legendary at this point. He had 17 honorary degrees from colleges across the country. He was the embodiment of the American dream, a poor farm kid from Missouri, who was now considered one of America's greatest living businessman. That is very inspiring to people. Absolutely. You can see why people loved this. Yeah. And, you know, when he visited those stores, he talked to everybody.

He made even the lowest level sales clerk. Like, took time for them. talked to them, helped them. I think that's special. Like, if Mr. Dairy Queen showed up at my Dairy Queen job and, you know, flipped burgers with me, I'd be like, holy shit. I can see why your grandma, like, fondly remembers Chacey Penny visiting the store. Of course, yeah.

Why? You're smiling at me. There's something I love about even the lowest level person. It just to me, when people kind of go down that road, it sounds like even the biggest piece of shit we got in the company. That's right. He was nice to old murder McGee. We're pretty sure that guy's a serial killer, but he came in and shook the man's hand. Look, I know it's sad that like we think that's cool, but like some of the ways bosses treat their employees, they treat them like shit.

Yeah. And this is the freaking guy that started the company, and he's taking it. the time. Yeah, friendly. Yeah, he was friendly. Being a normal person. Yes. We love to see it.

And you're telling me, he didn't just wear the neckerchief. He was fully clothed the whole time, which is even better. He liked the bow tie. Okay, sure. For the next five years, J.C. Penny kept working. He kept traveling. He kept writing. He kept lecturing.

He kept giving to charity. But then, on December 26, 1970, J.C. Penny fell in his Manhattan apartment. It must have been a tough day for him because December 26th was the anniversary of the death of his first wife, Bertah. He was rushed to the hospital where he got the bad news. A fractured hip. J.C. Penny stayed in the hospital to recover. Sadly, he would never leave.

About two months later on February 12th, 1971, J.C. Penny had a heart attack and died. He was 95 years old. Wow. 1500 people attended J.C. Penny's funeral at the St. James Episcopal Church in Manhattan. He received thousands upon thousands of condolences, including one from President Richard Nixon. All J.C. Penny stores were closed during the service. He was buried in the Woodlawn Cemetery in the Bronx. That was a very prestigious cemetery. There's some pretty famous people buried there. I'm sure, yeah. With J.C. Penny gone, many people wondered how the company

would do without his presence. In 1973, two years after J.C. Penny's death, the company was now called J.C. Penny, all one word. There were 2,053 stores. 300 of them were full-line stores, total sales of around $5 billion. Credit cards were now accepted at all locations. In fact, the company had their own credit card. Everything seemed great. Little did anyone know that the company had peaked. In 1981, store number 500 in Hamilton, Missouri, closed. Major highways and shopping malls had essentially killed the small, rural J.C. Penny shops. In 1983, J.C. Penny gave up trying to compete with Sears, and they closed their full-line stores. It had been a costly blunder.

8,000 people lost their jobs. The company said it was shifting to greater emphasis on clothes and sporting goods and home furniture. That same year, they took a huge gamble and signed fashion designer Roy Halston to a six-year, one-billion-dollar contract. Whoa. To make an exclusive clothing line for the company. It was called Halston 3, and it flopped. Oh, my God.

A billion dollars for six years? One billion dollars. That's not a just. for inflation? That's not adjusted for inflation. That was a billion dollars in 1983. Why did they? So that was kind of a first. That was like the first time. And final? No, it actually set off a series of big time fashion designers making a clothing line for like smaller stores. Well, yeah. I mean, we know this. We know this. But a billion. Six years, a billion dollars. and it flopped for both people.

So like... No, the dude who got a billion dollars... Well, hang on. Higher-end stores, they basically blacklisted Roy Halston. They're like, you're cheapening the whole thing. You got that J.C. Penny stank on you. Yes. Okay.

He basically was blacklisted. And then J.C. Penny, customers, you know, they liked the Halston 3 line, but it wasn't like blowing anyone away. and it was discontinued after a year. Did he get the billion? I doubt it. It's not like a guaranteed contract. After a year, I'm sure there's some clause where they're like,

we can get out of this. I don't know. Because if he felt like he was stanking up his reputation. Yeah. Oof. Once again, I feel weird feeling sorry for someone who absolutely got paid just fine. But anyhow. Apparently there's a Netflix documentary about that fella.

Really? Yeah, and they talk about the JCPenney deal. Okay. We'll have to check it out. Mm-hmm. In 1989, J.C. Penny tried a television shopping channel. It flopped. Was this before QVC?

No, I think it was dirt. QVC was around. Okay. And QVC actually acquired the channel. Ah. Because it was just, yeah. In 1992, J.C. Penny's wife, Caroline, passed away at the age of 96. She was buried next to him.

During their 45 years of marriage, Caroline was an endless. source of support, and after his death, she carried on his legacy of helping people. She was president of the JCPenney Foundation. She was a supporter of the YWCA, the National 4-H Council, various other charitable organizations. That same year in 1992, the J.C. Penny Company celebrated its 90th anniversary in Kemmer, Wyoming, the home of James Cash Penny Jr.'s first golden rule store. In his speech to shareholders, the company president, William Howell, stated, quote, we have returned to Kemmer to honor and commemorate our founder, James Cash Penny. It was in this community that Mr. Penny established his first store and adopted the four

principles on which our company was founded, honor, confidence, service, and cooperation. We have come here to renew that sense of vigor and freshness. Mr. Penny displayed in every aspect of his life, and to be in touch with our roots in a very real way. We know we will leave here inspired with a fresh sense of determination to take our company in the next century, at least as far as we've come since Mr. Penny opened for business in 1902. You liar! Yeah, big words. Big words.

Here's my counterpoint. J.C. Penny's foundational principles were slipping away. Penny had always preached the golden rule. Respect for customers and employees. Quality merchandise at affordable prices. Taking care of your employees, allowing them to share in the profits, community involvement, simplicity. Now the JC Penny company was taking a ton of risks. They were chasing trends.

They were slowly trying to keep up with a constantly changing retail world. They were axing benefits to cut costs. And throughout the 1990s and 2000s, J.C. Penny kind of solidified a time. reputation as this middle-of-the-road department store. Yeah. Of course, to a young Normie C, it was an incredible store. The best department store in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, by far. Or as the locals call it.

Fistfuck City, North Carolina. I fully admit to everyone listening and to you, Kristen, this is all nostalgia talking. Of course it is. We know, you don't have to tell us. I know J.C. Penny is not the greatest department. store. Yes. But I will never forget those amazing commercials with taglines like.

Yeah, that end. How about this one? J.C. Penny. I love your style. Did I sing over the right words? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I remember that one. Oh my God. How about this one? It's all inside. J.C. Penny. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

By 2011, the company needed to do something because it was going downhill. Customers were leaving. Stores were closing. So they hired a new CEO to turn things around. His name was Ron Johnson. His friends called him Big Johnson. Shut up. Is okay.

I'm thinking here. Ron Johnson was the former head of Apple's retail division. And he wanted to do something wild to turn things around. The first thing he did was he changed the branding from JCP all one word to JCP. I remember. An absolutely reprehensible change in my opinion. No, I, if this is the, should I say something or no?

I think you know exactly what's going to happen. Are they getting rid of the coupons? Yep. Ron Johnson. My grandmother and all the other old ladies would have strangled this man if they'd had the grip strength. If the hover round could get up to the 10th floor of this building, you'd be done for, Ron Johnson.

You would be dead by a thousand paper cuts from 20% off coupons. If this battery had enough horse power to run your ass over, I would do it. Ron Johnson announced a new pricing strategy. no more coupons. You know, coupons had become a standard thing at J.C. Penny. People were kind of used to them now. Yeah. But Ron Johnson got rid of them, and he advertised everyday fair and square prices,

which honestly, totally get the idea behind it. Yeah. It's in the spirit of the founder, J.C. Penny. Yep. He never liked using the word sales. He wanted to have that reputation of we just always have the lowest prices. That is the funny thing. And I remember when they made that change and my grandmother was truly up in arms.

And I remember thinking, I like this change because I always hate shopping at a store where you know the prices are artificially. I almost said artificially insominated. Artificially inflated. We fucked the hell out of this price. You're not going to want to touch that St. John's Bay sweater, ma'am. Oh, that's stain? Well, that's how we get the low, low prices. No, but like, I personally like to be able to just go to a store and buy it and feel like, okay, I'm not getting ripped off because I didn't like save my Sunday paper or whatever.

I didn't download the 15% off coupon for my email newsletter. Yeah, it's, I just find that annoying. But when those are the only people shopping at your store, I don't know, that's tough to turn that ship around. Let's see how it pans out. Like I said, I totally get why he wanted to do this, and it was in the spirit of J.C. Penny. Yeah. But, you know, that was 100 years ago. The company's just different now.

Things had changed. They hired Ellen as a spokesperson for the change. Really? Yeah. Where the hell is Ellen anyway? Where did she go? Oh, I feel so sorry for her. I don't know.

It's a real mystery. Uh-huh. The reaction to those changes were bad. customers revolted. Little old ladies around the country were like, oh, fair and square prices, my wrinkled old ass. I don't think they said that. So one thing I read from newspaper articles around the time was that, you know,

they interviewed little old ladies who were like, I hate this. They didn't trust that those were the lowest prices. They're like, oh yeah, you call them the fair and square, you know, everyday low prices, but we don't trust you. Right. We just think this is an excuse for you to make the prices higher. Yeah. Sales dropped by 22%.

Ouch. And Ron Johnson was fired. And thank God they brought back the name JCP Penny. They got rid of that stupid JCP rebranding. See, I don't think that's stupid if you're trying to completely reinvent yourself. Listen, I'm just a big fan of Mr. Penny. I read his autobiography. I fell for it, hook, line, and sinker.

He's the greatest man that ever walked this earth. Norm, were you in there with the little old ladies yelling at Ron Johnson? Did it wreak of rain bath at that protest? You tell them, Grandma! Oh, rain bath's on sale there, actually. JC Penny stores continued closing throughout the country, and the COVID-19 pandemic was the final death knell. On May 15th, 2020, the company filed for bankruptcy.

It was subsequently purchased by C. Catalyst brands, and they own Arapostal, Brooks Brothers, Eddie Bauer, Notica, and Lucky Brand Jeans. Today, they operate around 650 JCPenney stores. Needless to say, JCPenney is certainly not what it once was. Employees complain about low pay, limited hours, understaffed stores, less interaction with customers, having to push the company credit card with a ridiculous APR rate of 34%. Oh. Now that's something J.C. Penny would have hated. I think you would have exploded, spontaneously combust.

I about exploded just hearing about it. All of those things seem like the complete opposite of what J.C. Penny stood for. Yeah. J.C. Penny's values and hard work catapulted him to success in the business world. But he didn't rest on his laurels. He used his fortune to lift others up. He dedicated time and money to charitable causes. And he never forgot his roots as the son of a farmer and Baptist preacher.

And even when it seemed like he was being mocked by life, J.C. Penny never gave up. And through it all, he found incredible purpose and meaning in his life. The Hamiltonian newspaper wasn't lying when it declared all those years ago. Jim is a good boy and we believe he will succeed. And that's the story of J.C. Penny. Thank you. Well told.

Well told. Well done. I do want to mention one more thing. So when his wife, Caroline Penny died, their daughter, Carol Penny, took over the foundation. She was the one who got involved in civil rights and refugee camps and whatnot. She took over the foundation. it was restructured as the Penny Family Fund. Carol was a lifelong champion of social justice,

and thanks to her influence, the Penny Family Fund now focuses on helping organizations that tackle racial, environmental, and economic justice. Carol Penny died in 2002, but her children and grandchildren still run the Penny Family Fund today. Wow. Which is keeping J.C. Penny's charitable legacy alive. That is so cool.

Yeah. Well, there you go, history hoes. Next time you step into a J.C. Penny, maybe you'll see it a little differently. Next time you try on that St. John's Bay Polo, maybe it'll fit a little differently. Keep going. I feel like there's more here, Norm. When you send your 8-year-old kid into that photography studio, the flash of the camera will shine a little brighter. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah, because they're definitely still doing those studios. Well, Kristen, what do you think?

Should we do more histories of huge retail companies? You know, I actually really enjoyed this. Thank you. Yeah. I guess it was more about the man, not the company, but. But it was interesting. I do think in your telling, perhaps in his telling of his life, his mom doesn't get enough credit.

Probably not. No, definitely not. Mm-hmm. His mom was left to fend for herself when her husband died. J.C. Penny left her some money to help get her by. And boom, the second he needed it, which was by his design, because he shot the bed with his business, he reached out to his mom and essentially said to her, oops, that wasn't a gift. Please give it back to me. And she said, no problem. Yeah, she gave him everything. I don't think it's accurate to say she was left to fend for

herself. She had other children still in Hamilton who helped her with the farm. Sure. But I see your point. Mm-mm-mm. So what company should I cover next? Little Caesars. Oh, my God. Papa Johns. Papa Johns. I do love a good rise and fall story. Oh, well, Papa John's. I mean, that's a hard fall. Remember that clip of him after he would. It's all I'm thinking about. He was outed as the CEO. Uh-huh. You mean ousted as...

We just found out he's the CEO. Holy shit. He was ousted as CEO. And he did that interview and he was like, I've eaten 30 pizzas in the past 15 days. And he looked like a slice of pizza. That man was red and wet, okay? Yes, greasy. Sometimes you don't have to tell people that you're only eating.

eating pizza. Shining like a diamond. Like a ruby. Yeah, yeah. So that's a fun story. History. Yeah, let me know if there's any other company histories you want to know about it.

I really enjoyed this. This was fun. It was really good. Really good. And you know, it's funny. Now we're to the end of the episode. And I said,

oh, I'm going to read comments from the subreddit about a Muppet Christmas Carol. But I've already shat all over a Muppet. I don't think it's necessary. Yeah. Yeah. How long have we been reporting? Two hours, 18 minutes.

Oh, geez. Okay, yeah, we should wrap this up. This has been very fun. Yes. Just a reminder, we are on break for the month of June. We've been working our little butts off for an entire year. No breaks, baby. It's been fun.

Like, yeah, we launched this podcast a little over a year ago. We're taking our first official break. That's right. I'm so excited. I've got big dreams. of working ahead, huh? Oh, wow. Oh, yeah, that's definitely going to happen.

Well, we'll make sure we save the receipt on that. I'm going to be coming in fully prepared in July. No, but we, like I said, we will be updating the feed every week, so there will still be stuff in the feed for you, folks. But if you want, if you want more, and of course you do want more, Patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. If you sign up at the $10 level in the month of June, you get 50% off. 50% off. We're still doing trivia in June. We're still doing a bonus episode in June.

We're still in the Discord, and it is popping like a bubble-wrap dolphin. Absolutely. Flipping and flopping. And you know what they say about history hoes, Norm? We always cite our sources. And we also say Norm never has the document pulled up in time, so he scrambles. And Kristen has to be a pro. just speak to the camera directly, my dears. Are you ready?

That's right, Kristen. For this episode, I got my information from The Books. Creating an American Institution, the merchandising genius of J.C. Penny by Mary Elizabeth Curry. J.C. Penny, the man, the store, an American agriculture by David Kruger. And 50 Years with the Golden Rule by James Cash Penny Jr. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to. podcast and while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com

slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, R slash old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. She is the beautiful Kristen Pitts-Karuso. I go by a gaming historian

and until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio. Goodbye.