An Old Timey Podcast - 114: The Fate & Legacy of Floyd Collins (Finale)

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

By Friday, February 13th, 1925, rescue workers were getting close to Floyd Collins, who lay trapped deep down in Sand Cave. Above ground, crowds gathered and prayed for Floyd. Reporters questioned state officials for any updates. Photographers readied their cameras around the rescue shaft, hoping to capture the big moment.  By that point, Floyd Collins had been stuck for two weeks. Rescuers were confident they would find him. They just didn’t know if they’d find him alive. Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Norm pulled from: “Charles Lindbergh – No Fan Of The American Press – Sound Familiar?” Mr. Magazine, September 5, 2019. https://mrmagazine.me/2019/09/05/charles-lindbergh-no-fan-of-the-american-press-sound-familiar-a-mr-magazine-blast-from-the-past-circa-may-1954/.Collins, Homer, and John Lehrberger. The Life and Death of Floyd Collins. Cave Books, 2001.“Fingerprints and Bloodstains.” Kentucky Cop Stories, January 29, 2022. https://kentuckycopstories.wordpress.com/2022/01/29/fingerprints-and-bloodstains-louisville-ky/.Kem, David Randolph. The Kentucky Cave Wars: The Century That Shaped Mammoth Cave National Park. David Randolph Kem, 2014.Murray, Robert K., and Roger W. Brucker. Trapped! The Story of Floyd Collins. University Press of Kentucky, 1982. https://archive.org/details/trappedstoryofst0000murr.Reilly, Lucas. “The 1925 Cave Rescue That Captivated the Nation.” Mental Floss, July 13, 2018. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/544782/1925-cave-rescue-that-captivated-the-united-states-floyd-collins.Theiss, Nancy. “1936 Murder Case Still Resonates in La Grange.” Courier-Journal, June 2, 2026. https://archive.is/vPbAz.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Normie C. And I'm Kristen Caruso. And on this episode, rescuers finally reach Floyd Collins. But was he alive? It's been a long time coming. Oh, wow.

I wasn't expecting you to sing, Norm. Well, I'm a man of many surprises. Like this mug. That is a very cute little mug you got there. Oh, and the sticker is on the bottom. of it still. So that was a surprise for me when you took a sip. And for everyone who's watching us on YouTube now and on Patreon. Hello. Hello. Um, Norm, are you going to allow me to do the Patreon plug this week? Yep. We got several complaints that Italians were stealing jobs last week.

So I'm going to step aside and let the white lady take over. We've got very bigoted listeners. And we pride ourselves on that. Everyone, if you'd like to support this small, independent, sexy podcast, please head. on over to patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Once there, you will find just so many, oh my God, too many bonus episodes. You'll get the video with them. You'll look into our faces as we tell you the story. My God, what a bargain. Oh, but there are other perks too. We've got ad-free tears. We've got Norman's doing a weird thing. I'm just, well, I'm talking about how you get to look at us, so I'm posing. Right. And I just got to say, if you're only,

Only listening to us, consider yourself lucky you missed that. Oh, I'm your husband. Anyway, patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join us, won't you? And support your favorite, independent, small, sexual podcast. I guess it's not, well, sometimes it's sexual here. We can't help it. Sometimes.

Just oozes out of us. Sometimes. My husband's got a peanuts mug, okay? These things happen. Sometimes it's oozing. And don't forget. The pig butter investors on Patreon, they get the slop segment, Kristen. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. Who did the Patreon plug this week? You did, but consider me the waiter that comes by that puts pepper on your salad. That's me putting a little dash of spice on the plug. Okay, great. Okay. That's enough. Just say when.

Yeah, when, when. Okay. Patreon.com slash old tiny podcast. Now, I think I speak for everyone when I say I want to know about Floyd Collins. Let's get to the bottom of this. Let's pull up the boulder. Take his left shoe off. Get him out of there.

Okay. I'm not feeling good about it, though. You know, I've been a good boy this week. I've not told your mother what happens. Spoiler free in this household. You made it even worse by saying you've been a good boy to my mother. Yeah, that is kind of creepy. Yes.

Can we scale back the creepiness? We're just so early into this episode. Yeah, my bad. My bad. Norm, before you get started with the story? Oh. I've got big news. What's that?

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and use code OTP at checkout. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them old-timey podcast sent you. What's that code, Kristen? OTP!

And we're back from the ad. Doodaloo! Doodle. Okay, Kristen. Before we get into the finale of the series, let's recap part three. Previously, on an old-timey podcast. Did you have to look into the camera like that? My God.

Yeah. Floyd Collins remained trapped, 55 feet underground in Sand Cave. A collapse halted any further rescue attempts through the tight, narrow passageway. Soon, the Kentucky National Guard and state officials took over rescue operations. They were led by the bombastic bald buff boy General Henry Denhart. Denhart ordered his men to dig a rescue shaft and sealed off Sand Cave. Floyd's brother, Homer Collins, objected. So did Floyd's best friend, Johnny Gerald.

The rescue shaft would take too long to dig. Floyd would certainly die. They had to go back into Sand Cave. But the rescue was no longer in their hands, or in the hands of any local volunteers. Both Homer Collins and Johnny Gerald were eventually kicked out of the rescue site for trying to interfere. Reporter William Skeets Miller, who had bravely crawled and wiggled down Sand Cave to help rescue Floyd, now believe the situation was hopeless.

He continued to write up daily reports on the rescue, captivating readers nationwide. Lieutenant Robert Burden, a volunteer firefighter from Louisville, felt the rescue was over. He lashed out at the locals for interfering with his work. work and went back home. Henry Carmichael, the superintendent of the Kentucky Rock Asphalt Company, was hired by the state to dig the rescue shaft. And when I say dig, I mean good old fashion digging with shovels and pickaxes. Heavy machinery and equipment could not be used. They hauled away tons of dirt using wheelbarrows and buckets. The work was painstakingly slow. There was constant rain. The deeper the rescue crews went, the more they had to shore,

up the rescue shaft walls. They often ran into huge beds of hard limestone rock. Meanwhile, wild rumors swirled about Floyd Collins. Some people claimed he was murdered. Others said this was all a hoax, an attempt to attract tourism to the region, as evident by the carnival-like atmosphere at Sand Cave, where vendors sold food and souvenirs to massive crowds. The National Guard decided to investigate these wild claims. And ultimately, they determined, there was no foul play. This was no hoax. Floyd Collins was definitely trapped in Sand Cave. The only question that remained was, was he alive? Rescuers would soon find out. By the end of Friday, February 13, 1925, the rescue shaft was 52 feet down. Cave crickets scattered out of holes in the

dirt. A series of tests proved that they were now very close to the Sand Cave passageway where Floyd was trapped. He had been down there for two weeks now. No food or water for eight days. Reporters and curious onlookers waited above with bated breath. On this episode of an old-timey podcast. And the finale of this series. Rescuers finally reach Floyd Collins. Norm, are you sure this is the finale? Yes. Okay. Okay, so we did get a comment. Someone was very upset that I lied to them. They didn't appreciate being lied to. About what, Exactly. I lied.

How to say Louisville? Louisville. No. I lied and said part three was going to be a finale and it's not. And so I replied to their comment. I said, I apologize. I'm going to make it up to you with a poem. So I have a poem here.

This is not mine. It's by Shell Silverstein. Okay. I gave you a chance to water my plants. I didn't mean that way. Now zip up your pants. Norm, is this supposed to make the... feel apologized to?

Yeah. Okay. As a poem reading. This slam poetry, baby. Wow. I'm sure that person feels a lot better and isn't mad at all. And they appreciate the apology in the form of a poem. Next time, I think you should spank yourself.

Spank myself? You threaten to spank the listeners all the time. Maybe you should spank yourself. I mean, I can do that. No problem. My hand can reach back there. No big. It's not a big deal. I can make it happen.

For me to spank myself, okay? Norm, I'm worried I don't have enough iced coffee for this episode. I will say this is a meaty boy. If you like old school, old-timey podcast where we did three-hour episodes. That was insane. What were we thinking when we started this podcast? The very first episode was three hours and 30 minutes long. I don't know why I didn't split that one up.

And we wonder why it took a while to find our footing. Could it have been our four-hour episodes? No, it could not have been. Hey, hey, I mean, look at Seinfeld. It wasn't good until season four. Wow. And you know what? No one can say a single negative thing about Seinfeld today.

Exactly. All right, I'm going to get more iced coffee. Go for it. Let's all get some coffee. All right, I'm back. Tell me a tale. Did you fill up that 40 ounce of walla with ice coffee? That would be insane.

But I did go a little more. halfway. Okay. Yeah. Are you ready? Yeah. Okay, let's do it. Saturday, February 14th, 1925. Happy Valentine's Day. At 9 a.m., the rescue shaft had officially reached 54 feet deep. Workers ran a drill at the bottom to check for voids to verify their location. Because if you recall from the last episode, they believed the rescue shaft was directly over Floyd Collins. And so they wanted to make sure they were hitting that passageway. So if they were, the drill would hit a void and it would just like spin freely. You know what I mean? Okay. Okay. So they're going to run the drill and, uh-oh. Oh, nothing. It was solid dirt underneath. The calculations of state officials was off.

The winding passageways in Sand Cave had thwarted them. Henry Carmichael and his crew now had to switch gears. They would have to dig laterally into the side of Sand Cave. But where? And did they need to go a little further down in the shaft? Henry Carmichael sent a crew of men into the claustrophobic passageway to help answer those questions. Edward Brenner, a volunteer minor from Cincinnati, and the man who thought he heard Floyd just a day.

earlier, was one of the men who crawled inside Sand Cave. He reached the turnaround room and started shouting. Ed, you there? yelled a man from the rescue shaft. Yep, replied Ed. So that was good news. They were close, at least. Yeah. But the bad news was, Ed Brenner heard no signs of life from Floyd while he was in San Cave. I lay there in the tunnel for fully half an hour, said Ed, straining every nerve to catch the slightest sound. I heard nothing but the drip of the rock sweat. Back on the surface, Henry Carmichael weighed his options. Should they dig a little further down

in the hopes that maybe they can still get behind Floyd? Or do they just start digging laterally and hope for the best? What do you think, Kristen? So this rescue shaft is very, very deep. Yeah. The further you go down, the more dangerous it is. the further you go down, the more time it takes to reach Floyd. But if you dig laterally, you might end up, God knows where.

I think this whole thing sucks, and I don't have an opinion. This is truly, like, I think all the options are terrible. And so it's kind of like, I don't know, flip a coin. Okay, flip a coin. I like that. Also, I think Floyd is dead. So. Well, rescue workers, they're like,

Like, let's stop digging the shaft, please? Can we please, like, start doing a lateral tunnel and just get into the passageway? Yeah, I don't blame them. So, yeah, they thought it was time to stop digging down. Rain was pouring onto the rescue site that day. Jesus, you didn't mention that. It was pouring. Lightning crackled through the gray skies.

Cruise had to pump water out of the bottom of the shaft, which one man described as, quote, a sticky dish of chocolate ice cream and peanuts. He wishes, yeah, that sounds wonderful. Sounds delicious. The reality of this sounds like the worst thing ever. Yeah. Now, they did have a big, like, canvas tent over the rescue shaft, but I mean...

That's not doing shit. It was raining so much. Yes. When we get rain here in the Midwest, there's no such thing as a light rain here. It is just, like, hard, terrible rain all the time. Do you know what I mean, Kristen? You are such an old. man.

I am. Such an old man. Every time it rains, I run down to the basement to see of waters coming in. And he's not kidding about running. He runs down there. He excitedly gets the shop vac if he sees any. And excitedly, I mean, like, he's very upset. But also, yeah, yeah.

Well, yeah, you can't let that water sit. You got to suck it up. It's going to destroy your foundation. And you know what? If the shop vac isn't working, you just take a strong. you do it yourself. That's what a real man does. Isn't that right, Norm? Yeah, I make mine a silly straw. Just to make it a little more fun, you know. No, but for real, this sounds as if this story couldn't get any worse. It's a mess. Yeah.

But, Kristen, the biggest problem was the rescue shaft was becoming unstable. Loose rock fell constantly from the deep vertical side walls. And it seemed like every time the men dug a foot down, it was covered back up immediately. One rescue shaft wall was out. of plum by nine inches. Now, for any of you woodworkers or DIYers out there, that is the stuff of nightmares. I would wake up screaming in a cold sweat if something was out of plum by nine inches. That's a lie. You wouldn't be able to sleep. You wouldn't fall asleep in the first place.

I would freak out. That's why I struggle with woodworking sometimes, because if something is off by like a fraction, I am just like... You're just so chill. There's nothing I can do. That's fine. That's not a big deal. I'm too anxious to be a woodworker. Anyway, Henry Carmichael eventually relented.

The rescue shaft had gone deep enough. It was time to dig laterally and end this rescue as soon as possible. Meanwhile, reporters waiting at the top of the rescue shaft were anxious for an update. The events of the past 24 hours had brought headlines across the country that read,

Floyd Collins is still. alive in his prison cave and Floyd Collins rescue imminent. What was the holdup with the rescue shaft? Have you reached Floyd? We want answers. And so that evening, as a light rain fell, Henry Carmichael invited reporter William Skeets Miller down into the shaft to get updates and share his thoughts. Well, what do you think? asked Henry Carmichael. William Miller looked around, deep in the pit of the rescue shaft. It was unsettling, literally and figuratively. He paused for a moment and replied,

It's five times worse than in the hole. Perhaps Miller was having a little PTSD from his time in Sand Cave. Perhaps it was a genuine fear of those shaft walls collapsing. It was probably a little bit of both. Yeah. Henry Carmichael nodded and muttered, It's one hell of a place. For the rest of that night, rescue crew scrambled to keep water out of

the rescue shaft, and tomorrow they would start digging the lateral tunnel into Sand Cave. Sunday, February 15, 1925. A week earlier, the San Cave Rescue Site had looked like a carnival. More than 10,000 people gathered around, buying food and souvenirs from vendors, attending religious gatherings, watching the rescue shaft dig. This Sunday promised a repeat. Local newspapers warned visitors to bring their own food and drink because the crowds would be wild. But on that day, the crowds were maybe half the size. Rain and fog kept many people away. Another reason was the Big Buff Bald Boy, General Denhart.

Last Sunday was an embarrassment to the state of Kentucky. He wasn't going to fuck around anymore. So much attitude. General Denhart ordered all of the vendors to, to take their shit out to the road because the rescue site needed to remain clear of that foolishness. Okay, well, I actually agree with him on that. No, he's right. He's right.

You're going to hate this man later. But he's right on this. Here's the thing. I know from context clues that I'm going to absolutely hate him, but for now, I do need to say he's got a point. It's very similar to when we were talking about the Confederacy one time, And you were like, you know what, that's a good idea. They had some good ideas. That straight up did not happen.

You are a liar, sir. Roll the tape. You are a liar. I deplore you, roll the tape. Do you mean I implore you? Yes. I implore you to not look up the word deplore. I deplore you for lying about me and the Confederacy.

So, yeah, General Denhart said, get all these vendors out of here. You've got to go to the road. However, religious gatherings were permitted. The Collins family attended a prayer service for Floyd. Ever since they heard the news of the lateral tunnel, everyone in the family was at the rescue site, waiting for updates, trying to pass the time. Floyd's brother, Homer, volunteered on a work crew to help dig. Floyd's stepmother, Miss Jane, dressed in all black, sat silently nearby,

and watched the rescue crew's work. Her stepdaughter, Nellie Collins, sat with her. Mr. Carmichael will get Floyd out safe enough, she told reporters. Floyd's younger brother, Marshall Collins, tried to make himself small and just stay out of the way. Floyd's other younger brother, Andy Lee, chatted with crowds and assured everyone that the National Guard would get his brother out safely. And then there was Daddy Lee Collins. As usual, he was basking in the limelight. reading out loud hundreds of letters from supporters from across the country.

Look at this, he yelled out. They love Floyd. They love my boy. Floyd's alive and he'll be saved. He was, once again, a sort of celebrity chatting up the crowds and reporters. That sort of talk was kind of new for Lee. You know, for weeks he had been preaching about how Floyd being stuck down there was God's will. and now he truly believed his oldest son was still alive.

Floyd's alive and he'll be saved. He knows caves. Lived among him all his life, he told one man. That renewed hope permeated through the area. Men and the rescue crew also believed Floyd Collins was alive. When a reporter told one minor it would be nothing short of a miracle. The miner replied, Hell, it wouldn't be no miracle.

I've gone without food and water for eight days myself. Now, it weren't no picnic, but by damn it, it was done. It was not done, sir. Yeah, I think he made that up, possibly. No human went eight days without water and lived to tell the tale. Well, this minor claims he did it. Hmm. Okay.

But regardless, the, maybe I can call it hopium. Yeah. It kept people going. It really allowed workers to... Push it to the limit. Yeah. Well, and I'm also thinking about the religious aspect of this. I wonder if at a certain point you start to feel like, like you need to have faith.

Absolutely. He is alive. Mm-hmm. Well, and they talked about how Floyd was a man of God. And his faith would keep him alive. God would give him strength because he's a believer, you know? The other thing I'm thinking, and I don't think the family was thinking this way just because I feel like this would be a more modern way of thinking about it.

When your loved one is in danger like this, the worst thing that could happen potentially is for everyone to stop caring and go away. Yeah. And so I can tell you, if it were me, I would hope that I would have the presence of mine to, even if I didn't think that my love, loved one was still alive, I would be saying and slamming my watch on a table saying that they are still alive because I would not want the rescue efforts to stop.

Right, right. And I would want to keep people rallying. And I'd play that freaking song because no one's going to leave if that song's playing. I'm not going anywhere, baby. Hell no. You're going to push it to the limit. Darn right. Just like the lyrics say.

That day, rescue crews dug out the lateral. tunnel to Sand Cave through thick limestone blocks and layers of muck. Every single inch of this tunnel had to be shored up and reinforced. It was very slow work, but by the end of the day, rescue crews announced they were a mere six feet away from Floyd Collins. Reporters stayed at the rescue site all night, huddled around the barbed wire fence. Cameremen set up their tripods ready to capture the pivotal moment. Henry Carmichael told them to go to sleep. It would be at least another 12 hours before they were through. But most of the press stayed. There was no way they were going to risk missing this. Floyd had now been trapped in Sand Cave for 16 days. No one had heard his voice

or brought him food or water in over a week. His chances of survival were slim to none. But if he was alive, it would be the story of the century, and tomorrow would be the big day. Okay, remind me, how long can a person go without water? I have no idea. I thought it was seven days. Hang on. Well, this is an AI overview, so we can trust it with all we've got in the world. A healthy adult can typically survive three to five days without water. Okay. Wow. However, this window can shrink to mere hours in extreme heat or physical exertion, like if you've been trapped 50, 55 feet underground. Wow, that's weird that it just happened to say that.

It's listening to us. Well, and remember, there was a hope that he was drinking water that was dripping down onto his face constantly. Right. Which you can survive a long time if all you have is water. I'm pretty sure. Let me look that up. Now look up how long can you survive on just water. I'm sure it depends on your weight and overall health and all that.

Oh my. A human can generally survive for about three weeks to two months without eating provided that they have access to drinking water. There you go. Good grief. I get fussy after a couple of hours. So there's reason to hope, you know. Yeah. And it's been raining like crazy at this rescue site.

Right. Monday, February 16th, 1925. Rescue crews worked all morning digging out the lateral tunnel. By 1.30 p.m., it was 12.5 feet long. At the end of it, a minor named Albert Marshall hammered and chiseled away, sweat pouring from his forehead in the tight, cramped space of that tunnel. Finally, after one last hard whack, the wall crumbled. An opening appeared.

They were in Sand Cave. We're there! We're there! Marshall yelled. Crew members tossed out their cigarettes and rushed forward, trying to get a peek inside. A runner passed the word up to Henry Carmichael and General Denhart. This was it. Albert Marshall kept removing debris to widen the opening. As he did, an assortment of old tools, bottles, and rope fell on him.

Remnants of earlier rescue attempts. Albert Marshall stuck his head in. A stale, dank air hit his nostrils. It was so thick he could feel it, he said. It was dark. Silent. Nothing but the sound of water dripping from rocks. The lateral tunnel had intersected near the bottom of the 10-foot pit, where Floyd Collins lay six feet below. It was bad news. All of that hard work on the rescue shaft for the past two weeks put rescue crews not behind Floyd's legs, where they could remove the boulder.

instead they were back in the same place where men like Johnny Gerald, Homer Collins, William Miller, and Lieutenant Robert Burden had tried rescuing Floyd before. Albert Marshall tried to press forward, but his shoulders were too big to fit through the opening. He turned around and went in feet first. His feet touched the bottom of the pit, where he felt an old blanket, one that had been left there a week earlier to keep Floyd. warm. Marshall was feeling extremely claustrophobic at that moment. He panicked and squeezed back out. Someone else would have to go in. Volunteer minor, Edward Brenner stepped forward. Armed with a flashlight, he wiggled in head first, as men steadied him by holding onto his feet. Edward Brenner squeezed down to the bottom. He angled his flashlight. And there he finally saw Floyd Collins. Lifeless.

It was a disturbing scene. Floyd's body was more trapped than ever. More and more debris had compacted around his body, squeezing him tighter and tighter. Brenner said you could barely put your hand between the ceiling and the gravel covering Floyd's chest. The only part of his body uncovered were parts of his left arm and his head. Floyd's mouth gaped open, surrounded by a dirty, patchy beard. one eye was closed shut, the other remained open, as if to keep watch that someone might suddenly appear to save him. A stream of water dripped onto his cheek from a rock above.

Pull me out, yelled Brenner. The men holding his feet yanked him back up and out into the rescue shaft. Edward Brenner stood up, wiped himself off, and shook his head. Dead, he said. Henry Carmichael silently went back up the shaft to share the news with the news with General Denhart and other state officials. After a brief conference, they gave an announcement to the swarm of reporters waiting nearby. Gentlemen, I have a special bulletin to announce. Collins has been found, apparently dead. Reporters dashed off to phone their papers. The Collins family

who were waiting nearby for the news broke down. Floyd's younger siblings, Nellie and Marshall, burst into tears. His stepmother, Miss Jane, straggled. over to the Red Cross tent to lay down, weeping. I begged him not to go down there, she cried. I begged him. Homer Collins seemed to have no reaction. He felt nothing. He had given up hope a week ago, when General Denhart sealed off Sand Cave. Leonidas Lee Collins wandered over to the hillside to talk with the crowds. He felt a sense of relief that it was all over. Thank God he's been found, he said. It's all been in the hands of God from the beginning. I can't complain of divine providence. I know Floyd's with the angels. He got converted down in that there whole. God did it. God knows best.

General Denhart, the professional military man that he was, showed no emotion. He was more concerned about official business. They needed to get medical confirmation of Floyd's death. And that couldn't come from a volunteer minor like Edward Brenner. So General Denhart ordered a pair of doctors down into the shaft to confirm that Floyd Collins was dead. But this was definitely a unique situation. Floyd was stuck in such a narrow tight passageway. And these doctors he sent down there, they just wouldn't fit. Well, also, how much expertise do we really need in this situation? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think General Denhart was very concerned about these hoaxes and rumors, and it's like, yeah, let's get a professional, like, medical piece of paper.

Where are you going to find the world's tiniest doctor on short notice? I don't know. I know. They put these doctors into slicked up oil skin outfits so they could kind of loob up and grease in there. Then grease me up, woman. Okay, dokey. So yeah, the doctors weren't going to fit. Okay?

It was kind of like... Just put a little extra lube on him. It'll be fine. It was Winnie the Pooh stuck in Rabbit's house, okay? So instead, Edward Brenner, the volunteer minor, once again went in. Doctors sat behind him barking orders. How does he feel? Cold.

Feel just in front of his ear. Can you feel anything? No. Try his wrist. Is there any pulse beat in his wrist? No. Edward Brenner described every detail of Floyd as doctors scribbled down notes. When they returned to the surface, reporters swarmed them. Was Floyd really dead? We have no hesitancy in saying that from the condition of the body, as described by Mr. Brenner,

Collins has been dead at least 24 hours, they announced. So it was official. Floyd Collins was dead. after being trapped in Sand Cave for 17 days. But now a new problem faced the rescue crews. How on earth were they going to get Floyd's body out of there? Yeah. Because if you leave his body down there, then it'll become a curiosity

and more people will try to go down there over the years and find it. It'll just be... Yeah. And the Collins family wanted to bury him properly. you know, in their family plot. Sure. Tuesday, February 17th, 1925. That morning, the nation learned of Floyd Collins' fate.

Headlines read, Floyd Collins is found dead. Cavern grips Collins' body, and Cave keeps its victim. Now the rescue crews grappled with how to get Floyd's body out of Sand Cave. The miscalculation of the shaft location left them with the exact same problem as before.

Floyd was pinned by a boulder sitting on his left leg, and they had no way to remove it. Several ideas were pitched. Okay, well, what if we dug a new lateral tunnel to get behind the boulder? That idea was nixed. For one, they were running low on rescue workers now, because once people learned that Floyd was dead, many of the volunteers were like,

I'm out. I mean, why would they risk their lives any further? It's time to go home, go back to their families, go back to work. Henry Carmichael suggested amputating Floyd's leg. But again, how do you get a doctor down there to do that? You'd certainly have to dig out more of Sand Cave, which would be dangerous. Well, you wouldn't need a doctor. That's true.

Yeah, but I completely... I hear what you're saying, too. Like, yes, it would be extremely difficult, but I'm just pointing out. You're saying... It does not need to be a doctor because he is dead. You're saying, hand me my... Not me, someone else. 24-tooth hacksaw, and let's just saw this thing off.

Doesn't have to be precise. Is that what you're saying? Kansas butter knife. Throw back to our four-hour first episode. Very good. No, that's a good point. But one of the problems with that, One, even if it wasn't a doctor.

Yeah. Getting somebody in there to do that. Absolutely. You'd have to dig Floyd's body out again. He's completely covered again. Right. Also, the Collins family said, absolutely not. That is mutilation.

Do not touch his body. Uh-oh. Kristen's got opinions. Sometimes you don't get what you want. No, that's totally fair. And, ooh, so many people are risking their lives. it's such dangerous work. And I completely understand wanting your loved one's body as intact as it can be,

but you don't get to call all the shots at this point. Yeah. And trust me, the state is not going to just do whatever the Collins family wants. They can't, even if the state wanted to. It's like, okay. Yeah. I mean.

The bigger problem was getting down there and doing, something like that. Right. That was risky even to the person doing that. So that left them with only one option. Leave Floyd Collins there and seal everything up. Of course, that made a few reporters and onlookers very suspicious. Hmm, you aren't bringing Floyd's body out?

Curious! Is he actually down there? Oh, shut up. What else are you hiding from us? I am too smart. I am too smart. Yeah, go down there and find out. Right.

Needless to say, that kind of questioning bugged the hell out of state officials. Yeah. Henry Carmichael had just spent weeks digging that rescue shaft using a ton of his company's resources. He was exhausted. The last thing he needed was people not believing him. General Denhart was absolutely sick of the press. He just wanted to wrap up this rescue and move on. And so they announced their...

would be a coroner's jury. Six local fellows would crawl in the sand cave through that lateral tunnel, look at Floyd Collins, and confirm he was dead. Among the jury was Johnny Gerald. He was probably one of the few who were actually willing to go down there again. And so one by one, each man wiggled in, looked at Floyd, and wiggled out. When Johnny Gerald saw his friend for the last time, silent and still, trapped more than ever, he said nothing. Who knows what was racing through his mind in that moment? Gerald just stared for a few seconds and then left. As the jury deliberated in Cave City,

Henry Carmichael remained bothered. He really wanted some sort of physical proof that Floyd was dead. But what do you do? Should we cut off a finger? Cut off his ear? He's got a gold tooth. Maybe we pull his tooth. Oh, my God.

It all seemed kind of barbaric. Surely the Collins family would object to that. Henry Carmichael pitched the idea to state officials who were like, what the fuck? What the fuck? They're like, dude, chill out. I honestly think that this, what they did, having that guy go down there, having the doctors behind him asking questions,

I think that was a great way to handle it. I think having these four, six men go down there be traumatized, see the dead body. I think that's another, honestly, it's a pretty good way to handle it. Coroner's jury? And, you know, at a certain point, you just have to accept that there are going to be some weirdos who are going to make up some stories. And you can't just go yank in body parts. Because they're just going to say, that could be anyone's finger. But, you know, if someone's in that state of mind, if they have like a tinfoil head,

sitting like, you know, a couple of feet behind him, like some weirdo, you know, they'll say whatever. Yeah, yeah. But then, aha! Henry Carmichael had a light bulb moment, Kristen. Okay, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to let one brave photographer down into the rescue shaft. He can squeeze into the lateral tunnel.

And then he can take a photo of Floyd Collins' body for all the newspapers. What do you think? I guess it depends on how graphic it is. I mean, it is a dead body. It is a dead body. But maybe this is going to sound weird. I kind of understand, like, if you're genuinely worried about conspiracy theory, getting out of control, and you're concerned that people might try to go down there and, you know,

for years to come, maybe a photo would do it. Yeah, I actually think this is a... It's a decent idea. Yeah. Definitely better than chopping off. Floyd's ear and finger or whatever. Right. So they're going to go with this. A photographer named John Stager from the Chicago Tribune was selected to take the photo.

Stager crawled into the lateral tunnel and made it into the opening where it connected to Sand Cave. He lowered his camera down to the bottom of the pit where Floyd's body lay. A flash went off. It was done. A runner took the photo plate and sprinted to a nearby field where an assortment of planes and pilots. pilots waited to bring photographs to newspapers around the country. The photo plate was handed to a young, 23-year-old pilot named Charles Lindbergh. Shut up.

Lindberg took the plate, hopped in his plane, and made his way to Chicago. So he had been hired by Chicago newspapers to fly photos. That is nuts. This was, I think, yeah, two years before he crossed the Atlantic. Okay. Henry Carmichael was relieved. to finally have some sort of proof of Floyd's death, and just in time, too. As men cleared out of the rescue shaft, Henry Carmichael noticed the earth was beginning to settle.

The lateral tunnel into Sand Cave was slowly collapsing. Henry Carmichael later stated, I don't believe an angle worm could go through that place as I last saw it. Any last thoughts of retrieving Floyd Collins' body were gone. That afternoon, under a gloomy, cloudy scale, The Collins family gathered near the rescue shaft for a small, hastily assembled funeral for Floyd. A crowd of 150 rescue workers stood behind them, the people who had worked tirelessly the past few weeks to try and save Floyd. A small church choir stood on the hillside singing hymns like,

Near my God to thee. The reverend, standing on a tree stump, told the crowd that Floyd's entrapment was, quote, an unparalleled event in the history of the state and the nation. The story of Floyd Collins is but the story of the romance of the human race and its great struggle for existence and advancement. His body lies in yonder cave, but his soul is with God and he is happy. The Collins family sat up front, silent,

staring into the entrance of Sand Cave, just beyond the preaching reverend. Floyd Collins wouldn't get a casket. He wouldn't get flowers, or the dignity of being buried in a cemetery. The Collins family believed Floyd would remain trapped in sand cave forever. It was a short service about an hour long. Afterward, everyone slowly cleared out, saying their goodbyes. Many promised to keep in touch. The rescue of Floyd Collins may have failed, but it certainly brought people from all over the country together,

who may not have ever met otherwise. That evening, the coroner's jury in Cave City finalized their report. The verdict was unanimous. We, the jury, find that Floyd Collins is now dead, and that he came to his death from exposure caused by being accidentally trapped in what is commonly called Sand Cave. Incredibly, after further examinations, doctors believed Floyd Collins had lived until Friday, February 13th. That was only three days before rescue crews reached him. How did they come to that conclusion?

I guess by going over how he looked. Okay. And the water was still hitting him. It was. Yeah. In fact, I didn't write this down. There was a red mark on his cheek. So there was just a constant stream of water just falling on him.

General Denhart was relieved. It was all over. He added the verdict to his military inquest and packed up to go home. His final comment to reporters was, quote, Our position has been fully vindicated by the finding of the body. It will keep the name of Kentucky untarnished. Wednesday, February 18, 1925. That morning, the Chicago Tribune's front page printed the picture everyone had been waiting for.

The death photo of Floyd Collins. The caption read, only picture taken of the body of Floyd Collins lying in Sand Cave Tomb. A Tribune photographer risked his life to make this picture. But was it Floyd Collins? See, there you go. This is... The photo was very strange.

Oh. It showed a bald-headed man laying down, his right arm laying across his chest, his mouth open, looking like he was screaming out in pain. it really didn't look like Floyd Collins at all. It looked more like nosferatu. I'll show the photo in the video version. May I look it up real quick? It's not on Google, believe it or not.

I had to go to newspapers.com to see it. Okay. May I... Yeah. I'll quickly clip it for you and send it over Discord. Okay. By the way, if you want to chat with us on Discord, join our Patreon at the $5 level or hear there.

Yeah. Incredible. Everything's an ad on this podcast. All right. I'm going to show you the photo. Okay. And I would love your opinion on this. That's too bad because I'm going to keep it to myself.

Oh. Okay. Yeah. It's a black and white photo, obviously, taken in terrible conditions for a photo. You can make out a face that is screaming. There's almost like an orb in front of everything. So that's a light bulb. Okay.

From that string of lights, they ran down into sand cave. Okay. All right. Here's what I'll say about this photo. And I'm saying this as a woman who's never been pregnant. Okay. You know how your friend shows you their sonogram picture? And it means something to them.

Right. And like, obviously it means something to you too because that's, this is an exciting moment. But like, you're looking at it and you're like, I don't know. know what I'm looking at here. Sure. You know, that's kind of, that's kind of how I feel about this. Although you really can make out of a face, but it almost looks like a woman's face to me. It looks like Dracula or Nosferatu to me.

Like, yeah. It looks, it looks silly. You can see, you can see his right. It looks horrifying to me. You can see his right hand kind of lay into the side there. Oh, yeah, you can. But according to all accounts, his right arm was pinned. He couldn't even do that.

but there's a much bigger problem with this photo that I'm going to go over in a second. Okay. William Skeets Miller saw that photo and he was like, no way, this is fake. Really? Here's why. He said the angle they took that photo was literally impossible. So it's showing the side of Floyd Collins. But William Skeets Miller said, you couldn't get to the side of him.

You were working on removing debris from his body from the top of his head down. There was no room to get in that angle. I mean, he was literally being hugged by the walls of Sand Cave. Yeah. So what the hell is this? We don't know. We don't know if it's fake. We don't know if it's real.

I tried researching what exactly happened here, but it's really unclear. Charles Lindberg claimed he was handed a negative from a competing Chicago paper and that the plate he brought to Chicago was absolutely worthless, he had been sabotaged. And, you know, maybe that's not true. Maybe the photo just didn't come out right. That photographer just kind of stuck his camera down in the hole

and took the picture blindly. Yeah, that was, okay, I'm glad we're going back to this because that was my thought, was like, what are the odds you're going to get anything usable at all? Yeah. And, of course, this was not a digital, camera, you know, so you're not going to have that automatic like, oh, I got it or oh, I didn't get it. Well, and maybe someone at the Chicago Tribune kept the real one for themselves and they just

made this fake one. We have no idea. No. That didn't happen. No. No. The first one didn't turn out. It was nothing.

So they made something. That's kind of where I'm leaning. And I agree with William Miller, 100%. That angle is impossible. There was no way they could have taken that photo. Yeah. I don't think we'll ever know the truth, but I think this photo is hella-sus, and the truth is still out there. Should I put the hat on?

Yeah, you definitely, anytime you're going to say something like that, you need to put on your tinfoil hat. Well, there's no time. I've got a lot more to talk about, okay? That Wednesday, Cave City, Kentucky had turned into a ghost town. The hustle and bustle of the past few weeks was gone. The military, the rescue workers, the volunteers, the press, most, if not all of them, left. Henry Carmichael was one of the few out-of-towners remaining. He still had a job to do.

He had to fill in the rescue shaft. It's a dangerous place and we do not want anyone else trapped in there, he told one reporter. Due to the lack of manpower, Carmichael had to call in reinforcements from the Kentucky Rock Asphalt Company. And some men came, and luckily, filling in the rescue shaft was way easier than digging it out, and they could now safely use heavy equipment and machinery. By 5 p.m., the shaft was filled. Henry Carmichael did a final walkthrough with the property owner, B. Doyle, who was satisfied. And that was that.

The rescue of Floyd Collins was officially over. With the rescue finally over, people around the country could reflect on the first. the story. Many people just found it sad, horrible, disturbing. Author Robert Murray said, quote, people found it beyond comprehension that one man had been made to suffer so. The Washington Post wrote, quote, it concentrated in one agonizing individual case the experience of the human race in its struggle for existence. Others found the story inspirational. Look at how many people came together to save Floyd Collins. The Cleveland Plain Dealer wrote, quote, Is not Kentucky better? Is not mankind better for the struggle? Religious leaders were inspired,

too. Floyd Collins had been able to survive in Sand Cave for so long, thanks to his faith. You see, God grants strength to his followers. The nation searched for the bigger themes and deeper meanings to the rescue of Floyd Collins. You know what the locals living in the mammoth cave area thought of all that? What? Yeah. There was no deeper meaning. This just sucked.

Why couldn't they have saved Floyd? What the hell happened? Old-timers from the 19th century claimed that those rescuers were just a bunch of pussies. Oh, come on. They boasted, back in my day, I could have gotten Floyd out in one afternoon. Get bent. Nice, Bart Simpson.

I like it. Many locals hated how the state government got involved. It felt like a tyrannical overreach. And they only made things worse by digging that rescue shaft. But probably the most common take among the locals was, Floyd Collins got himself into that mess. It ought never to have happened, said one farmer. Floyd was a caving fool.

Not even a varmint would have gone down that hole. A mammoth cave guide commented, quote, Floyd wasn't too bright. If he'd known anything about caves, he wouldn't have been where he was. Why do people do this? Yeah. I don't know.

To feel superior. This man suffered a horrible, long, painful death. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to be a dick about it. Well, that'll teach him. In other words, people were saying Floyd Collins had dug his own grave. Despite that, it was still an incredible story.

And you know, this being Kentucky cave country, people realize there's some money to be made from all of this. It started almost instantly. B. Doyle, the man who owned the Sand Cave property, built himself a small ticket office on the main road and put up a big sign that read, 200 yards away, the body of Floyd Collins is imprisoned in Sand Cave. For just 50 cents, folks could walk around the San Cave rescue site,

as B. Doyle retold the tale of Floyd's entrapment. It's unclear how much money B. Doyle was making off of this. Whenever he was asked how business was, he always replied, Not bad, not bad. That's a tough thing to do. Say more. on the one hand with something like this, someone is going to make money off of it. And the person who owns the property knows people are going to show up on my property regardless.

And so on the one hand, I kind of understand like, this is going to happen regardless. I might as well profit from it or like find some way to profit from it. Well, and remember that B. Doyle and a few other property owners had reached an agreement with Floyd Collins that if he had found a big beautiful cave, they were going to open it up and start a business. And obviously, that wasn't going to happen anymore. And so B. Doyle was probably thinking, well, I'm going to get something out of this. What I'm saying is, I understand it, but it's also horrible and tacky and awful. Yeah, it is. And you are continuing to live in the same community. You are neighbors with. his family and his family sees you profiting off of this saying oh yeah his body is entombed down there and so yeah you're not going to say oh yeah I'm making a ton of money but you also can't be like oh business is slow actually it's really sad yeah you you have to play it down the middle I guess I mean it's it's gross but on the other hand I understand yeah so I'm trying I'm trying

to see it in the context of this time period where doing something like this in this region of Kentucky during these cave wars is probably like, yeah, okay. The hardest part for me is his family has to see that. Yeah. That's the hardest part for me. Yeah. Especially with Floyd's body still being down there. That would just devastate me.

Well, and also, unless there's something terribly wrong with this guy, it can't feel good to be like, hey, yeah, this man I knew really well, his body's down there. For 50 cents, I'll take you to the location and tell you all about the trauma. You know? Yeah. Ew. We're just getting started, by the way. Oh, okay. A handful of the rescue workers from Sand Cave, try telling their stories on the vaudeville,

They pretty much all flopped after a few weeks. None of those guys really knew Floyd Collins. I mean, what was there to say? Even Floyd's father, Lee Collins, tried the vaudeville route. You'd think that would be a big hit, but it lasted a measly one week in Louisville. One spectator described it as, quote, Lee came out, gawked at the audience, and the audience gawked back. A sad thing. Those rumors of dad, Eddie Lee Collins getting rich off his son's rescue were clearly just rumors. Locals sometimes spotted Lee roaming the Sand Cave rescue site, looking for glass bottles to recycle for cash. One man who did see some success, though, was Floyd's brother, Homer Collins. Homer toured the country speaking about his experiences. He gave incredible details on Floyd's life. He showed personal photos. He talked about how Floyd got stuck.

He talked about the drama around the rescue. That show lasted for eight months. But Homer Collins wasn't doing these shows for personal fame and fortune. He did it because he had made a promise to himself, a promise that he would get Floyd out of Sand Cave. In April of 1925, two months after Floyd's death, Homer Collins had saved up enough money

and hired a mining company to go back to Sand Cave and retrieve his brother's body. To save on time, the mining company dug out the old rescue shaft, and then some. They went 10 feet deeper, down 64 feet, and then they dug a new lateral tunnel that went under Floyd's body. It eventually came out to the edge of a deep, dark pit, the same one Floyd had been exploring before he got stuck. During his captivity, Floyd Collins had often said he had discovered a, quote, big, beautiful cave,

probably to justify why he had gotten himself in such an awful place. But now these miners could finally see it for themselves, and it was anything but beautiful. It was just a deep, dark, dank pit. From there, the miners worked their way up. and finally reached the body of Floyd Collins, this time from the opposite side. He was still there, but slowly withering away. Cave crickets had eaten off most of his ears and part of his face, which is a terrifying thing to think about. I didn't even know cave crickets would do that.

I think it makes sense. Cave crickets? I just didn't know they ate flesh, I guess. I guess I don't know what crickets eat. I think they'll eat whatever is there. Golden Corral. Even Golden Corral. They love those rolls at the Golden Corral.

So from this angle, rescuers could finally remove that damn boulder that pinned Floyd's leg, the one that had been causing all of the problems. And they expected it to weigh well over 100 pounds. But when they finally dug it out, they were astonished at how light it was. In fact, the boulder only weighed 27 pounds. It turns out it wasn't so much the weight of the boulder being the problem. It was more the odd shape of the boulder. It kind of looked like a lamb's leg.

It was big and wide up top and then it tapered down and it was skinny on the bottom. And this shape allowed the boulder to really wedge itself down and made it almost impossible to remove in the tight sand cave passageways. So I saw a picture of like a It's like a map of Sand Cave And it showed where the boulder was It looked like a tooth Yeah

It was as if Sand Cave had like Bitten Floyd's leg And was not giving it up Honestly that's an excellent way of putting it A bite It was like a bite Yeah So the big wide, heavy portion of the boulder

Was still in the ceiling Yeah Of Sand Cave And the skinny tapered part Had fallen down down and trapped his leg. At just the right angle. Right.

Just the right place on his body. Yeah. When the miners brought the boulder up to the surface, property owner B. Doyle was like, I'll be taking that. That's my property. B. Doyle soon displayed both the boulder and Floyd's left shoe in his ticket office on the side of the road.

With the boulder gone, Floyd Collins was finally brought out of Sand Cave on April 23rd, 1925. A crowd of around 100 people watched from the hillsides. The group of minors who had gotten Floyd out gathered around the body for a photo. I don't want anybody to leave saying we brought up a chunk wrapped in rags and called it Collins, said one minor. I guess rumors were still circulating. Sure. Yeah. Three days later, on April 26, 1925, Floyd Collins was properly buried. Along the path toward the entrance of his beloved crystal cave. His grave marked with a huge stalagmite. Homer Collins was relieved.

Now the rescue was finally over. With the Floyd Collins story behind them, folks in the Mammoth Cave area hoped to get back to doing what they did best. Caving! Spalunking! Whatever you want to call it. The Kentucky Cave Wars are back on, baby. Or were they?

After the Floyd Collins tragedy, tourists were now rightfully asking themselves if it was safe to visit Kentucky Caves. Tourism to Mammoth Cave and the surrounding caves plummeted. Solicitors tried to reassure people. Floyd Collins was a whack-a-doodle. He should have never been in Sand Cave in the first place. In fact, the average American is safer in Kentucky's caves than on the main street of his hometown. Nothing worked. Mammoth Cave visitors dropped, but small caves suffered the most.

Those roadside attractions where solicitors begged people to come check out their cave. You know, people found them unsafe and dangerous. Yeah. But then something happened that would change South Central Kentucky forever, Kristen. In May of 1926, President Calvin Coolidge signed a bill authorizing the creation of of Mammoth Cave National Park. The federal government could take over the area. They could do real geological surveys.

They could make it all safe. And for the public, they could end the Kentucky Cave Wars. Now, this campaign had been in the works for a few years now, but there is no doubt that the Floyd Collins situation really kicked things into high gear. said one writer for the Louisville Courier Journal, quote, Floyd Collins has brought Kentucky before the world.

He will not have died in vain if you open the cave country, his country, to the people of the United States. However, the Mammoth Cave National Park Bill stipulated that the federal government couldn't take control until they had acquired at least 20,000 acres of land. And luckily, the first domino fell like right away. Kristen, do you remember those two old bitches living in San Francisco who owned a Mammoth Cave?

With you calling them bitches? We have no reason to think that. I know, I'm just. Yes, but yes, I do recall. Yeah, so they were the heirs to the estate of Dr. John Krugan who bought Mammoth Cave way back in the 19th century. Well, in August of 1926, just three. Three months after Calvin Coolidge signed that legislation, the last living heir of Dr. John Krogan, Mrs. Serena Livingston-Krogan Rogers, passed away. Livingston.

And in Dr. Krogan's original will, it said that if there were no longer any living heirs, Mammoth Cave would be sold at a public auction. And so the Mammoth Cave National Park Association sprang into action and they bought it. And soon they turned their eye toward the smaller caves in the area, you know, buying them up one by one. This National Park Association, it was run by very wealthy people in the area. And so they had plenty of money to offer to people, you know. And there's no doubt that Daddy Lee Collins hoped they would make him an offer on his and Lloyd's old business, Crystal Cave. By the end of 1926, Lee Collins' life was looking a little different. His wife, Miss Jane, had passed away earlier in the year. But Lee had gotten remarried

to a 40-year-old widow named Philippina Haidlaufe Schmeet. How old was he? 67. So 27-year age gap, Kristen. Yikes. You ready for this? They would go on to have two. children. Wow. Yeah, honestly. Are we sure she was 49? 40. She was 40. Oh, she was 40. Okay. Okay. She was 40. Yeah, they would have two kids. Daddy Lee was also no longer on good terms with his sons, Homer, Marshall, and Andy Lee. Not because of the age gap love, though, Kristen. Right. The Collins boys were furious with how their father had behaved during and after Floyd's rescue. Tensions further escalated when they discovered Lee was soliciting donations at his shows

to pay off a mortgage that didn't exist. Homer Collins publicly called his father a liar and a disgrace. But perhaps the most painful disagreement was over what to do with Crystal Cave. After Floyd's death, Lee Collins now owned the Cave outright, and he wanted to sell. The sons knew that, But they also knew that Floyd Collins wouldn't have wanted that. You know, Floyd loved Crystal Cave. He wanted to see it become a success. Well, and it's now his gravesite. So he's buried along the path to Crystal Cave.

Yeah. And so the Collins boys filed a petition to remove Lee as the administrator of Floyd's estate. Unfortunately, it didn't work. Lee Collins had complete ownership of Crystal Cave. Lee had actually renamed the cave to Floyd Collins Crystal Cave. to try and drum up business. But that didn't really work. Tourism was down everywhere.

And again, Crystal Cave was very far off the beaten path. And if Lee Collins thought that the government would knock on his door with a big bag of cash, think again. There was no guarantee the government was going to purchase his land. Plus, they were in the very early stages of this National Park project. It could take years, a decade maybe, before they buy his land. feel like in these situations, people always have this fantastical number that they think they're going to get. But it's not going to be what he wants.

No. And eventually, Lee Collins grew impatient. He was desperate to get anything for Crystal Cave. And in 1927, he finally got a deal. A dentist named Harry B. Thomas, who owned a few other caves in the area, purchased the Crystal Cave property for $10,000. Adjusted for inflation, about $200,000. Kristen, I wish I could tell you that this was a basic real estate deal, but it was not.

In the contract, Dr. Thomas got specific permission to move Floyd Collins' body. And Dr. Thomas wasted no time. In June of 1927, he... He dug up Floyd Collins' body, embalmed it, placed it inside a heavy metal coffin with a glass lid, and he placed it inside Crystal Cave. Now, visitors who came to Crystal Cave could walk by and look at the face of the famous man who was trapped in Sand Cave. A sign nearby read, William Floyd Collins, greatest cave explorer ever known. As author Robert Murray put it, quote, it was ghoulish but effective.

Yeah. That's, ugh. That's disgusting. It's disgusting. Floyd Collins brothers were obviously outraged. They now believe their father was completely senile and was not of sound mind to sign any real estate contract. And so they sued Dr. Thomas for illegally acquiring both the cave

and their brother's corpse. The case would be tied up in the courts for a few years until 1929 when a judge ruled in favor of Dr. Thomas. It's a little unclear what became of Lee Collins after that. Newspaper said he became destitute, living in a one-room cabin on the Crystal Cave property. He earned extra money by soliciting people for cave tours. He eventually passed away from heart failure in 1936 at the age of 77. Meanwhile, his son, Floyd Collins, was on full display in Crystal Cave. Well, most of the time.

In March of 1929, Dr. Thomas woke up one morning to discover that Floyd Collins' body was missing. Thieves had broken into Crystal Cave the night before and taken Floyd's body. Local detectives were on the case. They dusted for fingerprints. They sent out bloodhounds with the scent of Floyd's. coffin. And incredibly, they found Floyd's body. You're kidding. It was only 800 yards away, wrapped up in a sack.

Sitting in some brush near the edge of Green River, Floyd's left leg, the one that had been pinned under that boulder, was gone. The thieves were never found. Some folks thought it was just a rival cave owner trying to take business away. Others suspected it was Homer Collins trying to try to. to get his brother's body back. Or perhaps it was orchestrated by Dr. Thomas himself to drum up business for Crystal Cave.

Either way, Dr. Thomas wasn't going to let that happen again. He started sealing up Crystal Cave at night and covered the glass lid of the coffin with a metal door. Visitors could no longer openly look at Floyd Collins anymore. Of course, a generous tip to the tour guide could make it happen. Which, by the way, we had a few comments from some older listeners who remember seeing Floyd Collins' body in Crystal Cave. Oh, my God.

Mm-hmm. How many years was he on display? We'll get to that. Okay. But, yeah. I was going to say, how old are these listeners? I mean, so, spoilers, you could potentially look at Floyd Collins' body up until 1989. That is crazy.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh. But anyway, let me keep going. No, hold on. Who do you think took his body? Oh, it wasn't Homer Collins. I agree.

I think Homer Collins would have gotten the job done. Yeah. And it would have been well planned out. It was not Dr. Thomas trying to drum up business. I agree. I think it was just some idiot rival cave owner who was like, I'm going to take Floyd back. And now no one's going to go a Crystal Cave. It's amazing that they found the body.

I think it was young dummies. Yeah, like kids or something. Yeah, I think it was somebody who didn't realize like, oh, this is going to be actually really heavy. This is going to be gross. How are we going to get out of here undetected? You know, like it was not planned very well. No, not at all. And that's a critique of a body snatching.

You're welcome, everyone. What do we say? Do better. Yes. We're totally fine with body snatching. We just want it done right, you know? Exactly. We're always looking to improve and no matter what we do.

That's right. Meanwhile, the Mammoth Cave National Park Association continued their quest of buying up caves. The more they could buy up, the less likely there would be another Floyd Collins situation. You know, for many poor farmers living in the area, this was an easy sale. This was the most money they had ever seen in their life. They're going to sell right away. Sure. George Morrison, the man who famously ran the new entrance to Mammoth Cave, sold his property in 1931.

But other families refused to sell. Many had lived in the area their whole lives, dating back to the 18th century, when their ancestors arrived at Mammoth Cave. You know, this was their home. Yeah. So instead, the government forced to sail via eminent domain. Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make. Beautiful.

This strategy displaced many families. Abandoned homes, churches, schools were a very common sight in the area. By 1946, the government had acquired more than 50,000 acres, of land. And that year, Mammoth Cave National Park officially became the 26th National Park in the United States. Finally, an end to the Kentucky Cave Wars, right? I'm guessing not. Hell no, to the no, no, no, no. No, of course not, Kristen. There were still plenty of private caves in the area. And guess what? Now solicitors could cosplay in park ranger uniforms. Oh, we can put up big billboards that use the same colors as the National Park logo.

Oh, let's put up giant American flags at our ticket booths. Are we a part of the National Park? Maybe that's up to you to decide. That is unreal. The war will never end, Kristen. It still goes on today. National Park officials were very annoyed. these private caves were taking ticket sales away. The park's survival depended on those ticket sales. And the two biggest privately owned caves competing with the National Park were the Great Onyx Cave, and of course Floyd Collins' Crystal Cave. By the way, I do want to mention, so when all the caves were privatized,

black tour guides, outnumbered white tour guides, three to one. When the government took over these private caves, they fired most of the black tour guides. Wow. Not to mention, they displaced many black families from their land with eminent domain, which I found very interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. Why didn't they want black tour guides? I mean, this was the 1930s and 40s in Kentucky. Yeah, but it had been. aggregation, discrimination. It had been the tens and 20s in Kentucky and black tour guides were fine. But they were privately owned. I know, but that just amazes me that the federal government would step in and be worse than private citizens in that area.

I mean, that says a lot, I think. That's why it's class warfare. It's not cultural warfare. You know, the mammoth cave region was a poor region. and it was a diverse region too. Yeah. The Kentucky Cave Wars raged on into the 1950s. During that time, a group known as the National Speleological Society came to Mammoth Cave National Park with a proposition.

Hey, can we explore Mammoth Cave further? We'd love to know how far this cave system goes and if it connects to other caves in the area. What did the National Park say, Kristen? No. Hell no, you can't. Even though wouldn't this be the solution to their problem? No, it's not the solution to the problem, Kristen. It's going to make things worse for them.

Wouldn't it be the solution if they find, oh wait, our stuff connects to Onyx Cave, our stuff connects to Floyd Collins Crystal Cave, bada bada-boom, have we learned nothing from like episode one or two of this story? then the National Park can get you wherever you want to be down there. You just got to get down there. See, their worry was if they find connecting routes to the other caves, the private caves are going to put up big signs and be like, oh, you can get into the National Park from our cave.

They were thinking the opposite. It's a two-way street, I see. It's literally what happened 50 years earlier with Mammoth Cave, when the whole Kentucky Cave Wars began. Yeah. It's, you know, time is a flat circle. So yeah, for one, they didn't want another Floyd-Collins situation. They didn't want these, you know, eggheads coming in there, getting stuck in the cave.

You know, that's fair. Sure, whatever. But yeah, the other reason was we don't want people to find connections to other caves. It's going to devalue the National Park. And so the National Speleological Society was very annoyed. And so they turned to the rivals of the National Park. They went to the great Onyx Cave and they went to Floyd Collins Crystal Cave. And they're like, hey, can we explore your caves?

Dr. Thomas's family, who are now running the business after his death, were like, Yes. Of course you can explore Floyd Collins Crystal Cave. And boy, we sure hope you find a connection to Mammoth Cave National Park. That sure would be swell for business. I mean, science. You know what? The government should not have pissed off all those nerds.

That's a big mistake. Yeah, don't fuck with the eggheads, I'm telling you. And soon the old Floyd Collins homestead became the main operating station for the scientific exploration of the Kentucky cave system. In hopes of finding a connection between them all, something Floyd Collins and others had theorized all those years ago. As Spalunkers explored the caves, they often found ever. evidence of Floyd's old expeditions. They found empty cans of beans and the letters FC etched into limestone rocks. I didn't write this part down, but a lot of the explorers, you know, they were, they had tons of

equipment. They were very well prepared for these cave explorations. And they were just astonished by where Floyd Collins went when all he had was a rope, a can of beans. And a flashlight. In a flashlight. He's like, why was he down here? It was incredible where he went.

The National Speleological Society made good progress, and they found several new connections to surrounding caves. But none of them led to the big one, Mammoth Cave. Still, these were amazing discoveries. And feeling under pressure and a little embarrassed, the National Park Service finally relented. And so in 1950s, they opened up Mammoth Cave for scientific exploration.

And then two years later, the National Parks eliminated their top competitors. In 1961, they finalized the purchase of both the Great Onyx Cave and Floyd Collins Crystal Cave. The final price tag of Floyd Collins Crystal Cave, $285,000. Oh, my God. Adjusted for inflation, $3.2 million. And Daddy Lee had sold it for like 10 grand. Floyd Collins would have been very happy. He knew how valuable Crystal Cave was.

He really had faith in that. Speaking of Floyd Collins, his body was still laying in permanent wake inside of Crystal Cave. The National Park took over the cave and was like, oh, right. there's a dead body down here. Crystal Cave had a lot of safety risks. Park Rangers wanted to preserve it as much as possible, and there was still more exploring to do. And so they ultimately decided to seal off the entrance to Crystal Cave,

with Floyd Collins' body still inside. The National Park's acquisitions eventually paid off. On September 9, 1972, a group of six cavers entered Floyd Collins, Crystal Cave. Fifteen hours later, they emerged from Mammoth Cave. On that day, the Flint Mammoth Cave System officially became the longest cave system in the world. Incredible.

Floyd Collins had been right. His beloved Crystal Cave did link up to Mammoth Cave. That's so cool. Yeah. In 1989, the National Park Service, at the request of the Collins family, finally removed Floyd Collins' body from Crystal Cave. It was apparently no easy task. The coffin was made of pure nickel and weighed an astonishing 1,200 pounds. Oh, my God.

It also had to be carried up a steep, narrow slope, up and out of Crystal Cave. Getting Floyd Collins out of caves was never easy in life or death. That's pretty cute. Floyd was given a private funeral with descendants of the Collins family. He is buried at the Mammoth Cave Baptist Church Cemetery, where he remains today. And again, like I said earlier, we have gotten a few comments from some older folks who remember seeing Floyd Collins in the 80s in Crystal Cave. God, they must be so old. We've gotten comments from older folks.

The olds have been commenting. We don't know how they learned how to use technology. I guess if you were born in 1980, you could have gone as a kid. Yeah, Norm, you're an borderline event. Wow. I'm just kidding. So I was a little confused by that because I was like, well, they sealed off Crystal Cave. But I guess what I learned was the National Park did allow people to go in, but only on

guided tours. And so, yeah, there were probably a select few people that did get to see Floyd Collins. It's wild, huh? Yeah. That freaked me out as a kid. You know, the passage of time does something for me because, like, I mean, at the Nelson Atkins Art Museum, we've got a mummified body. And that has somehow never freaked me out. But it's also, you know, well, that was discovered a long time ago. Yeah. I think the thing that I find so unsettling is that

like his family was all still alive. A lot of them were, yeah. Yeah. Well, and you know, nephews, nieces, whatever, like people with like such direct ties to him and they knew, yeah,

people can go gawk at his dead body. I would love to know more about the battle to get him out of Crystal Cave. Yeah. Yeah, because surely they had been requesting that before 1989. Surely it had been an ongoing thing.

Right. What a journey for Floyd Collins from being sealed up in Sand Cave back in 1925 to his final resting place in 1989. That's 64 years. That's another lifetime. The world had changed so much. The Great Depression. The New Deal.

World War II. The Cold War. Civil rights. The Flintstones. But what about the other men involved in the rescue of Floyd Collins? What became of their lives? Let's find out. I want to start with the most controversial man in the rescue.

And you're a big fan of this fellow, Christian. No, stop. Johnny Gerald. Oh, actually, yes, I am. You like Johnny Gerald. I did, yeah. Johnny Gerald stayed in the area, selling cars and real estate. Gerald always resented people who thought he was trying to scam the Collins family, or that his intentions weren't pure.

Yeah. To Johnny Gerald, the military in the rescue shaft doomed his friend. The only way they could have saved Floyd was through Sand Cave. Johnny Gerald earned a reputation over the years as sort of a rough thing. fella. He had a few run-ins with the law, including one for transporting alcohol during prohibition. He died in a car accident while on a fishing trip in 1965. Johnny Gerald's arch-nemesis, Lieutenant Robert Burden, returned to Louisville, where he lived for the rest of his life. He always maintained that Johnny Gerald was a goddamn son of a bitch.

Why? He's asshole. I wrote that down. I know. But yeah, he always said Johnny Gerald was the problem. And that was the main reason Floyd Collins couldn't be rescued. Robert Burden still believed that his rope idea was the only solution, even if it meant, quote, busting up his leg. Lieutenant Robert Burden, or should I say, Captain Robert Burden, he finally got that promotion. He retired from the Louisville Fire Department in 1953.

He passed away eight years later in 1961. a heart attack. He was 69 years old. Henry Carmichael, the man in charge of digging the rescue shaft, returned to his normal job as the superintendent of the Kentucky Rock Asphalt Company. The company was later purchased by the Reynolds Metal Company. Oh. Kristen! Your father, D.P., worked for Reynolds, didn't he? He did for a brief time. Long ago, yeah. Henry Carmichael's leadership quality shined during the Floyd Collins Rescue. And they continued to show afterward. Henry Carmichael was state disaster chairman for the American Red Cross. He was head of Kentucky's March of Dimes and a trustee of Washington and Lee University.

Very fancy. Henry Carmichael passed away in 1949 at the age of 68. Edward Brenner, the volunteer minor who confirmed Floyd Collins' death, moved to Staten Island where he seemed to have a very rough life. During the 1970s, he was lived. living in a three-room dilapidated shack. Only one room was usable, and it was filled with trash and empty food cans and cats. The Department of Social Services eventually got word of it and moved him into a boarding home. When asked about the rescue, Edward Brenner said,

Collins was a mighty plucky fella, but they was all against them. You know, that guy was really murdered. When asked to elaborate, Edward Brenner said, that family would get me if I said anything. Edward Brenner was clearly not well in his later years. I had a tough time finding more information on him, but I believe he passed away in 1984. And now we get to General Henry Denhart,

the loud, bombastic, big, buff, bald boy who took over rescue operations when the state government got involved. In 1932, General Denhart was appointed adjutant general. of Kentucky. So that made him the head of the Kentucky National Guard. You don't fucky with Kentucky!

They actually changed the state flag to say that. They should. You don't fuck you with Kentucky. That is hilarious. Did you make that up? Hell yeah, I made it up. A genius.

And he served in that role until 1935. After his military service was over, Henry Denhart's life took quite a turn. Recently divorced and 60 years old, Denhart started seeing a new lady. 40-year-old Verna Gar-Taylor. They had a very rocky relationship. On November 6, 1936, Verna Gar-Taylor tried to break up with Denhart. She was found later that night in a ditch off Highway 146 with a bullet hole through her chest. Oh. Detectives found a 45-caliber pistol nearby, that belonged to Denhart.

They also found traces of gunpowder on his hands. Denhart was soon arrested and charged for the murder of Verna Gar-Taylor. In April of 1937, the case went to trial, under a national spotlight. Denhart maintained his innocence. Vernagar-Taylor had shot herself. Prosecutors disagreed. There was no evidence of gunpowder on Taylor's hands. All of the evidence pointed to her being shot by Henry.

Henry Denhart. Ultimately, the jury deadlocked. Denhart was free on bail until his retrial. On September 20th, 1937, the day before his retrial, Henry Denhart was in Shelbyville, Kentucky to discuss legal strategy with his attorney. As he left a tavern to go back to his hotel, three men pulled up in a car, hopped out, and shot him seven times. He died instantly. the shooters were the three brothers of Verna Gar Taylor. Wow. They all turned themselves in, but none of them would see a day in prison. One brother claimed mental illness.

Another claimed self-defense. And the other was unarmed. They were all acquitted. By the way, not so fun fact. Oh, no, my brains. Henry Denhart was also suspected of kids. killing another woman who committed suicide named Patricia Wilson. In 1936, her body was found in the elevator shaft of the Seelbach Hotel in Louisville.

Witnesses say they saw Denhart arguing with her on the eighth floor before she was found dead. Future topic? Good grief. So who knows how many women that guy murdered? How do you feel about the brothers? That's some frontier justice right there. Yeah. Yeah.

I would love to know more. I got to say, obviously, the legal system didn't work in a technical sense in that case. But I am not really a fan of the legal system. I'm a fan of justice. And to me, that is justice. Well, I tell you what. You can't go around killing people because someone might come and kill you. You can't.

And, you know, I thought Henry Denhart was hardcore. Those three brothers? Yeah. And then they all turned themselves in, and they all were acquitted. I think, yeah. But we do live in a society, Kristen. We have to let the legal system play out sometimes. Well, I think it's interesting, you know, the man on trial for her murder.

The jury just couldn't quite figure out what to do there. but the three men who killed someone on her behalf were all acquitted. I think that says a lot about how we feel. This is very similar to the movie A Time to Kill, starring Matthew McConaughey, Sandra Bullock, and Samuel L. Jackson. I have not seen that movie. It's really bad.

It's stupid. It's a stupid 90s. anti-racism movie. Uh-huh. And it's, it's weirdly... Oh, you want a pro-racist? It's weirdly... It's like Hollywood's idea of what racism is.

Okay, okay. It's... Maybe we'll talk about it on the slop sometime. Okay, okay. You know, maybe we'll watch it together and we can talk about it. Then we'll watch the blind side. That's exactly what I'm talking about. So a movie like The Blind Side or Crash.

Do you remember Crash? That movie fucking sucked. Yeah. A time to kill is kind of in a similar thing. An anti-racist movie that somehow racist people love. Yeah. Kind of like that. That's a category.

That is truly a category. So Henry Denhardt, he was kind of a state celebrity. You know, he was a war hero. He did the Floyd Collins rescue. So, yeah, the jury deadlocking, I think had a lot to do with him and his charisma and like, you know what I'm talking about? Like, he talked to the press all the time. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about? What are you talking about? The jury sees him, him versus her. And they're like, I don't know what to do. But they see three men who are basically saying, yeah, we did it. Yeah. And they're like, it's fine.

I see what you're saying. What am I saying, Norm? Sexism. Yes, say more. Say more. I don't want to. I feel I'm going to make myself look stupid. It makes me think of how, obviously, murders illegal, but for a very long time, if a guy, like, came home and found his wife with another man, he could shoot her and get off scot-free.

Like, that was just fine. Okay. So I see what you're saying now. I knew you didn't really see what I was saying. I knew it. So one of the jurors could have been like, but she broke up with him. He was so upset. Well, it's about not super caring about the actual victim.

Right. Sexism. But being totally willing to see her brothers as victims. And therefore, yeah, let's let him get away with you. I see what you're saying. Do you actually see what? No, I do. I do. Thank you for explaining it.

Okay. You're welcome. Let's talk about Homer Collins. The first man to reach Floyd down in Sand Cave. Homer Collins remained bitter about the rescue operation for the rest of his life. Yeah. He seemed to want to forget about it. After the sale of Crystal Cave, Homer left the area. I had no desire to live in the cave region any longer, he said.

The greatest explorer was gone, and old memories haunted me. I became restless. After traveling the country for a while, Homer Collins finally settled in Louisville. He got married, had a kid, and he became a wallpaper and paint salesman. In 1947, on the 22nd anniversary of the rescue, Homer sat down for an interview with the Courier Journal newspaper. Still believing he could have saved his brother, if I had had only five good men who knew the surface conditions as I in Floyd knew them, I feel sure we could have rescued him within 48 hours after he was trapped. In 1955, Homer Collins sat down with writer John Lerberger

and shared his side of the story, which turned into the book, The Life and Death of Floyd Collins. Homer passed away in 1969 from a liver ailment. He was 66 years old. And finally, let's talk about William Skeets Miller. the reporter for the Courier Journal who turned into a rescuer. His daily reports from the rescue site captivated readers across the country, and it brought him a lot of attention.

William Miller was offered $50,000 to go on a lecture tour. Adjuster for inflation, that's about $1 million. Whoa. He turned it down. He was done talking about the Floyd Collins tragedy. He went back to work at the Louisville Currower. Journal. Who also rewarded him for his work,

an honorary dinner and a check for $1,000. Who needs $50,000 when you've got one grand? I really respect that, though. Yeah. But the ultimate reward came the following year. In May of 1926, William Miller was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for his outstanding reporting on the Floyd Collins Rescue. He was and still is.

one of the youngest winners in the prize's history. How old was he? 22. Oh, my God. The Pulitzer Committee later wrote, quote, From the standpoint of individualistic enterprise and personal courage, the 1926 Pulitzer Award to reporter William Miller stands forth as the most exciting.

Miller eventually left the Courier Journal and moved to the Big Apple, New York City. he got a job reporting for the New York Morning World Paper, and on the side, he could finally pursue his true passion. Singing. Really? He loved to sing. He wanted to become a singer. Huh. But then in 1931, his life changed when he joined a brand new company

that was ready to change the radio business, the National Broadcasting Company, aka NBC. Where is this going? What do you mean? Keep going. So that job opened a lot of doors for him, both personally and professionally. At NBC, he met and married old-timey radio actress Alice Reinhart. But it ended in divorce.

He later remarried to Radio Children's Show host Madge Tucker. I don't believe they had any children. I couldn't find anything on that. But William Miller worked his way up the ladder and eventually became the head of special events programming at NBC. NBC sent him on wild adventures all around the world. William Miller broadcast from submarines, airplanes, inside a lion's cage, a parachute jump. Ripley's believe it or not dubbed William Miller, quote, the bravest man in radio. Of course, for William Miller, nothing could top his experience in Sand Cave.

When he was a guest on the Jack Parr radio show, he admitted that the rescue of Floyd Collins, was a high point in his life, but he didn't think what he did was courageous or heroic. That was pure ignorance, he said. In 1954, William Miller got a special assignment for his job. He was joining a week-long expedition with the National Speleological Society inside Floyd Collins' Crystal Cave.

Miller was amazed by what he saw. Huge caverns, formed by incredible marble, rock formations with gypsum flowers all around him. Miller said it was, quote, a place of amazing natural beauty. He then retired to Vermont. In his later years, he and his wife moved down to Florida, which was basically legally required for old people in the 70s and 80s. In retirement, William Miller did some freelance writing for magazines like Reader's Digest, and he did interviews about the Floyd Collins Rescue. He was very open to talking about. it, but there was always a sadness in his voice when he did. In one of his last interviews in the study of his home, Miller was asked how they could have saved Floyd. He shook his head. I have no idea, he said. William Miller often blamed himself for the failed rescue. If only he could have held on to those wood blocks while using the jack. I will regret it all my life that we didn't save Collins, he said. I worked so hard and

did not accomplish a thing. William Miller then turned and looked out the window. Memories of Sand Cave, that dark, cramped winding passage, came flooding back to him. It still makes me shiver, he said. William Skeets Miller passed away in 1983 at the age of 79. Today, Cave City remains a small Kentucky town, thriving off the tourism from Mammoth Cave National Park and the various private caves that are still around. The Kentucky Cave Wars continue, but it's a little less hostile these days. I would hope so. But one cave in the area is off limits. If you head west out of Cave City, you'll eventually reach Old Mammoth Cave Road, which winds north toward an entrance to the National Park. And right outside that entrance is a sign,

a plaque, if you will. It's the marker for the Sand Cave Trailhead, a boardwalk pathway that leads you several hundred yards to the Sand Cave rescue site. The landscape looks undisturbed. If you look around, you can just imagine hundreds of people gathered around, campfires, dotting the hillside, men digging and chatting about how to save Floyd Collins. But today, it's quiet. It's peaceful. It's oddly unsettling. B. Doyle's ticket office is no longer there. In fact, there are only a few clues remaining from the rescue, like a depression in the ground marking the old rescue shaft. And under the limestone overhang on the side of the hill, remains the entrance to Sand Cave, sealed off permanently with welded metal grates. Explorers were never able to find a connection between Sand Cave and Mammoth Cave,

and perhaps they never will. Cave explorer Roger Brucker, who got special permission to enter Sand Cave, back in 1977, described it as, quote, the scariest cave I have ever been in. And I think it's for the best we leave Sand Cave alone. Let's just look at it for what it is today. It's a memorial and a reminder of a time when,

back in 1925, an entire nation was captivated by the struggle of a man trapped in a cave. And that's the story of the Floyd Collins cave tragedy. Norm, that was incredible. Thank you. Just a reminder to all you history hoes out there, caving, spalunking, whatever you want to call it, is an optional activity.

You do not have to do it. You know, I really do think it's a beautiful story. Yeah. And obviously there's a lot of ugliness to it. But I do think people were kind of right when they said there is something beautiful about all of these people coming together and hoping and trying to rescue this one man. Yeah, I can see the beauty of that for sure. And it's very human that people disagreed. It's very human that there was a lack of trust.

it's human that people acted beautifully and shittily. Yeah. When the newspapers back then talked about everyone could put themselves in Floyd's position and it just like, I really felt that way too. I was just like I can't imagine what that would be like. No, it's frightening. It's been fascinating like the reaction to you telling this story. And people have been freaked out by this story. Yeah.

And we've told some really scary stories of this. But there is something about this guy stuck in a cave that you really do put yourself there mentally when you hear this story. I think it's about the fact that he was alone. He did always try to get people to come down to him. But I think that's a big part of why we can all put ourselves there and why it's so scary to all of us. Mm-hmm. You know. Being alone.

Yeah. Being trapped and being alone. Yeah. In the dark. Mm-hmm. Oh. So there is one more thing I want to talk about. There's been a ton of songs and books and TV shows and plays and movies about the Floyd Collins Rescue.

Yeah. So I want to talk about a few of them. So the most famous movie is from 1951. It's called Ace in the Hole starring Kirk Douglas. Kirk Douglas. Man, that guy's old. Well, you might be thinking about Michael Douglas, his son. I am.

Kirk Douglas is dead. Okay. Michael Douglas is old, but he is alive. Okay. So Aeson the Hole is about a struggling reporter who learns about a man trapped in a cave in New Mexico, and it kind of becomes a media sensation. So it's not the exact Floyd Collins story. Right.

It's ripped from the headlines. Yeah, so the man who came up with this story, his name was Victor Desney. He told people he was trying to make a movie based on the Floyd Collins story. Yeah. And it is a very good movie. Highly recommend it. Have you seen it? I watched it, yeah.

It was good. Those old-timey movies, they are good. I mean, some of them are really good. Very well written. Still holds up today. No superheroes. We love it. No Marvel superheroes.

That's right. The Hulk coming. There's also been a lot of like cheesy, like one-hour TV movies about it from like the 50s. If you want a more faithful retelling, there's a Broadway musical entitled Floyd Collins. How do you feel about musicals, Norm? I don't love musicals. But I did listen to the soundtrack. And it's really good because it has a lot of bluegrass in it.

Okay. And I love bluegrass. music. So I was into it. It started as this play in like Philadelphia. It became an off-Broadway play. And then it hit Broadway in 2025. Oh, okay. Yeah. But if you really want like the nitty gritty of this story, if you listen to this four-part series and you're like, I want more details. I got to have more. I wish it was five parts. Read the book Trapped by Robert K. Murray and Roger Brucker. So it was a originally published in 1979. They interviewed many of the men who were involved in the rescue.

And I can honestly say it's one of the best nonfiction books I've ever read. It's very, very good. Highly recommend it. Apparently, Billy Bob Thornton optioned the film rights to that book back in 2006, but nothing has been made yet. And I'm just stunned by that because this story is so incredible. I do hope somebody makes something. We got to talk to Billy Bob, you know.

Yeah. Are you mad at Billy Bob? How mad? Just call him a murderer. That's what I've learned from this story. That's right. You can just call him a murderer. Yeah, if you're mad at somebody.

So there you go, folks. That's the Floyd Collins story. That was fantastic. Thank you. And here I go, being a pro. What you got? You know, folks at the pig butter investor level on Patreon, are about to get a special segment we call The Slop.

The Slop. It's an exclusive segment in all of our episodes just for them. And this week, what are we talking about, Norm? We made a promise to talk about 90-day fiancé. We took a solemn vow to reveal our thoughts on 90-day fiancé. The newest season of 90-day fiancé. And also, are we going to talk about the documentary we watched last night? We'll save that for another slop.

Should we tell them what it is at least? We watched Toxic Love Story on Netflix. Don't sound bored, Norm. Well, we watched it. We were. It definitely went places, but we'll save that for another slop. Let's fulfill our promise and talk about the latest season of 90-day fiancé. Here we go.

Oh, boy. Well, folks, we just wrapped up maybe our longest slop segment ever. We are going to get feedback from my dad on that. Yeah, DP does give us. feedback on each slop segment. He really enjoyed tales from the sauna. Yeah, well. That was maybe his favorite.

Yeah, that was a good time hearing about your sauna troubles. This one, though, it's 90-day fiancé. We talked a long time, and you know what? My dad, he wants to be our editor. He wants to cut us off when we're talking about tiny stuffs and pre-ups and Dick's respect. Yeah. So, yeah, I hope you enjoyed that slop.

We might revisit 90 Day. The season's not over, you know. And let's wrap this series up, Norm. Ooh, let's do it. Chrissy, you got something. What do you got for us next week? Well, we don't know if we're going to air Kyla's two-part series on Wallace Simpson or if we're going to...

Spoilers! I already... We've already said this. That it was about Wallace Simpson? I think so. I don't think we have. Well, spoiled! Or if we're going to do my episode,

We just recorded about another presidential fun fact that turns out was not a fact at all. I was very fired up in the episode. That's a good one. Can't even talk about it. You know what? I'm wrapping this up. You know what they say about history, ho's norm? We always cite our sources.

That's right. For this episode, I got my information from the books. Trapped. The Story of Floyd Collins by Robert K. Murray and Roger Brooker. The Life and Death of Floyd Collins by Homer Collins and John Lerberger. The Kentucky Cave Wars by David Kemp, and the article, The 1925 Cave Rescue that captivated the nation by Lucas Riley for the website Mental Floss. Plus more. Please refer to the show notes for more information. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast.

Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, R slash old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individual in Instagram. She is the beautiful Kristen Pitts-Karuso. I go by gaming historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio.

Goodbye. Bye. See ya.