An Old Timey Podcast - 122: We Watched Pearl Harbor So You Don’t Have To (Part 1)

Episode Date: September 23, 2026

In this two-part series, we analyze Michael Bay’s 2001 box office smash, Pearl Harbor. Normie C points out historical inaccuracies. Kristin points out cringey dialogue. Above all, we ask ourselves the *important* questions. Questions like: Is Pearl Harbor just Titanic for boys? And, if this film had a $140 million budget, why does Jon Voight’s butt-chin prosthetic look so much like Silly Puddy? Finally, isn’t it cute that we made fun of this movie for being too long, but we couldn’t fit our own analysis into one episode?? Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, we pulled from: Baldwin, Tess E. “The Park Avenue Tunnel Wreck of 1902.” Discovering NYC, January 9, 2025. https://discovering.nyc/the-park-avenue-tunnel-wreck-of-1902/.Bay, Michael, dir. Pearl Harbor. Touchstone Pictures, 2001.Cutrer, Thomas W., and T. Michael Parrish. Doris Miller, Pearl Harbor, and the Birth of the Civil Rights Movement. Texas A&M University Press, 2018.Default. “Huff-Daland Duster 1925-ca.1948.” Accessed September 21, 2026. https://deltamuseum.org/research/history/aircraft/crop-dusters/crop-dusters/huff-daland-duster-1925-ca.1948.Imperial War Museums. The Reason Japan Attacked Pearl Harbor. 2021. 13:52. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so4v_2zq35k.Kan, Kenneth C. First in the Air: The Eagle Squadrons of World War II. Air Force History and Museums Program, 2007.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm Normie C. And on this episode, we'll be talking about Pearl Harbor, the movie. Oh, no. Why are you acting like this is news to you? Everyone...

In my dreams, I'll always see you so above the sky. It's probably the best part of Pearl Harbor, right? Oh, the epic Faith Hill theme song. Listen, everyone, first I apologize to myself, not to you. This was my stupid idea. I have had this idea for a while. Oh, wouldn't it be fun if when we do an episode and it ties into a big movie or something, then we watch the movie and we talk about it on the show.

Seemed like a good idea. Uh-huh. Last week, Normie C, you did a great job. You told us about Doris Miller. Thank you. I almost called him a Civil War hero. That is, I'm mixing up my wars already. World War II hero.

Very great story. You mentioned that he is featured in the film Pearl Harbor. He is. You didn't mention how briefly he's in there for all of 90 seconds. Most interesting part of the film by far. And boy, they don't focus on him much at all. Yeah, isn't that funny? Hilarious.

Well, I guess it's not funny, but it's... No. We're just getting started, folks. We're just getting started. Folks, this movie is an astonishing and outrageous three hours, three minutes, and seven seconds long. Oh, you got it down to the seconds. Because I'm outraged by it. Okay.

It went on forever for days. We both have a lot to say about it. Yeah, maybe we should do a Patreon plug before we... Oh, yeah, go ahead. Folks, if you enjoy this small, sexy, independent podcast that apparently does movie critiques now, head on over to patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. And for just $5 a month, you'll get access to our entire back catalog of bonus episodes with full video. But if you want our exclusive segment at the end of every episode, which is called The Slop, where we talk about anything and everything, join us on the $10 tier. You also get to play some trivia, which we'll talk about today on the song.

Slop, right, Kristen? Yeah. By the way, I'm sorry. I'm still mad about Pearl Harbor. Folks, we decided to watch Pearl Harbor yesterday. We thought we had plenty of time. Turns out, no, when you factor in the P-breaks and the snack breaks, you don't have time to watch Pearl Harbor in one afternoon.

We had to stop Pearl Harbor to play trivia, and then we had 20 minutes left to watch of it. Anyway, and Norm, you said, you know, we're doing a movie critique. Yeah. This is so much more, my friends. because Norma C is coming in hot with, you know, pointing out the unactually historical inaccuracies. Yes. I'm actually really excited about everyone's going to be shocked to learn that I don't know a ton about Pearl Harbor.

Based on this movie, I'm thinking it's actually pretty easy if you're in the military. Because apparently, apparently they ask you to go do a brave thing, but they're like, this is volunteer only. And then it's just up to you whether you want to do it or not. That's how the military works. Am I right? That's not inaccurate, is it? It's not inaccurate. So Norm's going to be talking about historical inaccuracies.

I went through this film with more of an eye for dialogue. Right. Or I guess I should say an ear for dialogue. The dialogue in this movie is something else. Kristen audibly groaned many times while we watched the movie. I also cackled at times that I think the filmmakers would find inappropriate. Right, right. At times when they were being the most sincere they've ever been in their lives, I was cackling.

Norm, should we do like a bird's eye view review? Each of us just give like overall impressions, then we'll dive into the movie. Sure. Okay. Do you want to start? You start. Okay. I'm too eager.

I'm scared. Okay. Okay, here's my thoughts. It's complicated. Number one, I think that no movie, no movie should be more than 90 minutes long. That should be the law. Oh, no. Norman?

No. Norman, here's, this is my law. We call it Kristen's law, and there are dozens of us who believe in it. No movie should be more than 90 minutes long. But turn it into a mini-series. Have as many episodes as you want. In fact, give us way more than we need. I know it doesn't make sense.

really in a real sense, but I could watch little segments of something all day long, but you give me a three-hour chunk of something and it's offensive. Are you telling me you would watch a mini-series of the Pearl Harbor movie? If they had turned that into a mini-series? I would be much more inclined, yes. Oh, no. Much more inclined. No.

This is the law, Norman. Don't argue. It would just be longer and worse. So, okay, here's a thing. The amount of money they poured into this movie. movie is just astonishing. You watch it. Every shot is gorgeous. Personally, I think someone was shit and cash back there.

I don't know how this happened. They don't make movies like this anymore. Boy, do I sound old. Well, what if I told you, Kristen, this was a Disney movie. That makes sense. It is a Disney movie. So it was released by Touchstone Pictures, which is owned by Disney. And they reached into Mickey's little pants and pulled out.

wad of cash after what a cash. That's right. So, okay, there was a lot of this movie that I thought was just plain awful, but there was also a lot, like a good 45-minute chunk of it that I was like, hell yeah, brother! This is awesome! See, it was hyping you up for that moment. I mean, so it's, I would like to simply say this movie was bad, but no, there was a big, chunk of it that I very much enjoyed. Yeah, the actions, the battle scenes are decent. Decent?

Yeah, I mean, Michael Bay, who directed this film. They were awesome. Yeah, so he's known for making action films. Norm, would you like to give your thoughts? Okay, so I saw this movie when it came out. Oh, yeah, I didn't, this was my first viewing. I was 13, really into World War II. Mm-hmm.

You know, watched all the... Boys are. Watched all the World War II movies. I know some people might think that's a red flag. I apologize. Just what I was into. No, here's, okay, so that is a red flag. Here's a giant green flag.

You know the shit out of the Golden Girls. Everybody, our Golden Girls trivia, Norm one. Anyway, that's beside the point. So when I first watched it, I was entertained because I was like, it's a World War II movie. Norm, you were entertained the entire time? Yeah, I was like, yeah, this is a cool movie. but the older I got and the more I watched it because it, you know, TNT plays this movie, I think, every day. The more I watched it, the more I was like, oh, this movie is so bad.

It's like my media literacy increased over time. Okay. And now, you know, we watched it yesterday. Mm-hmm. It is truly a bad movie. Not just for the historical inaccuracies, which, you know, I don't want to nitpick too much on this movie because it doesn't say, like, based on a true story or, Well, I think it's sort of implied. Yeah, you know, actually, you're right.

It is called Pearl Harbor. But historical fiction. Sure. That's fine. Sure. The bigger problem is the writing is just awful. It's so bad. Okay, yeah.

You are bringing up something that I forgot to mention, which is that what is awful about this movie, but what is also kind of fun to watch about it is that, is that, it is written with the earnestness of like a 13 year old boy writing poetry for the first time. He means every word of it. And is it

awful that it rhymes? Is it just plain crap? Yes, it is. But don't you dare try to laugh at it? I forgot how many scenes have these extremely dramatic intense lines delivered

with the most Gusto, it got tiring after like the third time. How dare you? Every single scene had some line that was just like, this is the line of the movie. Yeah, no, there are, well, here's the thing. It's a movie that cuts from place to place to place, and there's a cliffhanger every time.

And, you know, at a certain point, you're like, just drop me off the cliff. I'm fine. Just let me die. I will say my one memory of this movie, because I did not see it when it came out. I just somehow knew it was not quite for me. But let me tell you something.

Folks, we got Kate Beckinsale. Did I say that right? You said it kind of weird. I lost confidence. I want to call her Kate Beckinsdale, and I know there's no D. Beckinsale. Thank you. Also, we got Josh Hartnett and Ben Affleck.

Alec Baldwin. John Voigt. Hey, I'm talking about the Love Triangle right now. Yeah, talk about a jump scare with Dan Aykroyd. What the hell was he doing in this thing? But I remember one of my church friends growing up, she saw the film. She saw it many times. And she roped me into many a conversation about what I would do if Josh Hartnett and Ben Affleck were both in love with me.

It was a thing we all needed to be prepared for. Could I make a prediction on who you would choose? Sure. What would I do in this situation? Now, is this purely on looks? or is it the personalities of the two guys? Of the two characters in the movie? Yeah.

Sure, it's character. Yeah, yeah. It's all of it. I think you'd go for Josh Hartnett. Oh, do you? A little more shy, sensitive. Still good looking. Yeah.

We'll get into it. We'll get into it. Yeah, so big picture review, you think this movie stinks, as the critic would say. No, no, I said 45 minutes of kick-ass, yeah, brother! But 45 minutes of hell to the year. Yeah. USA, USA.

And I think this movie is not good. Well. I know that is the most basic review. But we're going to deep dive into this. We're going to recap this whole movie. But before we get into that, Kristen, I do want to give you a little bit of a background on this film. Okay. My biggest question was, why was this movie made?

I have a prediction. If you tell me I'm wrong on this, I am going to be a little devastated because this thought came to me 15 minutes ago and I was like, Kristen, you brilliant bitch. Here's why this movie was made. Titanic for Boys. You are... A hundred percent right? No. Oh.

No. It's not so much Titanic for boys, but it is Titanic. So Titanic was a massive success. That came out in 97, 98. made over a billion dollars globally. And so Disney, allegedly, was like, we need our own Titanic. Mm-hmm. So they turned to Michael Bay.

Who was looking for a new project who wanted some more credibility in the industry? Oh, my God. His previous movies were Bad Boys, decent buddy cop movie. Yeah. And Armageddon. Okay. And so he thought, if I make this film about Pearl. Harbor.

The most earnest film on earth. I can, you know, legitimize myself as a filmmaker. I can get some awards. And it's a disaster movie just like Titanic and we'll have a love story just like Titanic. The problem is Titanic was a disaster. The cause of the disaster was an iceberg. In Pearl Harbor, it was war. like people killing each other.

What are you trying to say here? You're dancing around. I just don't think it was a good idea to make a love story with Pearl Harbor as the backdrop. I disagree with you. I think there's room for it. I think that the love story should not have factored in so strongly. Here's what I think you're saying. The thing about an iceberg is it's an iceberg.

There's some simplicity in that in the storytelling. It's not going to take a million minutes to explain. Big iceberg went out against the boat. The complications of war and trying to figure out, you know, secret codes and all this stuff. And the Japanese are coming after us because they're mad about gasoline. I think that's what they said in the movie. It is basically right, yeah. Yeah, it's a little too complicated.

There's a lot of complex things going on. And they captured it perfectly in this movie. Don't you agree? No. Should we, okay, so should we dive into the 2001 classic Pearl Harbor? We should. Okay. By the way, this movie was written by Randall Wallace, who also wrote Braveheart.

Another movie I have not seen and don't care to see, but perhaps we will see it. Is it based on a true fella? Based on William Wallace, a hero for Scottish people, you know, rebelled against England. Mm-hmm. The movie is very inaccurate, but it was a huge success when it came out, won a bunch of Oscars. Mel Gibson was William Wallace. Oh, we know. Yeah.

You know you got that poster up in your room. Shut up. Okay. Let's recap Pearl Harbor. Okay, I'll take it away here. Folks, we open in Tennessee, 1923. Oh, what a missed opportunity. Picture it. Picture it. 1923, Tennessee. Two young boys, okay, these are the fellas we've got to know. I thought they did a good job getting the little actors who looked kind of like Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett. Sure.

We've got Raph McCauley, Danny Walker. Okay, they're in a plane that's owned by Raph's dad. Oh, no, I scroll too far in my script. The tragedy has already occurred in this Pearl Harbor. episode. Sorry, that was a tacky of me to say. Anyway, you know, boys will be boys. They're playing around with an airplane, which is insane. They oopsies start flying the thing across the field. They land it. Everyone's fine, but somebody's dad is mad and somehow he's the bad guy about this. I don't know. I'm kind of on the abusive father's side. Whoa, hey, wait a minute. Well, I mean, honestly, your kid takes off in an airplane, I'd be flipping out. Yeah, but he wasn't flipping out. about him taking off in the airplane.

He was flipping out because he didn't come home to do his work on the farm. I think also he was mad about the airplane. Okay, that's fine. Two things can be true. That's true. Anyhow, okay, so Danny's father comes out mad as hell. But Raph jumps in. Rave is played by...

Who's Rave? Rave is Ben Affleck. We have to talk about the way you say Affleck. That's the insurance company. It's Affleck. Ben Affleck. Affleck? Affleck.

Affleck. Can I say Affleck? No, you cannot. Oh man. I've always said it like that. I know you have. And you know what's funny? A couple weeks ago, you said it like that.

And I decided, you know what? We've been together for a million years. I correct him every time. Why do I do this? Who cares if he doesn't know how to say Ben Affleck? Who cares? And then as we were watching this stupid movie, doing my stupid idea of we're going to do a whole whole thing.

We're going to do a whole, you know, episode talking about the movie. I was like, I'm going to have to correct him on Ben Affleck. That's fine. I'll say Affleck. By saying that weird? You said that one weird, too. Anyway, so little Ben Affleck, who is Rave, comes at Danny's dad with a two-by-four and yells, I'll bust you out open, you dirty German.

And then here we go. This is a great line of dialogue because, you know, you got to set things up. Danny's dad says back to these two little boys, I fought the Germans in France. I fought them in the trenches. And I pray to God that no one ever has to see the things I saw. And then he walks off. And Danny says to Raph, you're my best friend. Is that it?

Well, that's the exposition. I think we know. So we set that up. We call that a little foreshadowing, a little exposition. cut to black and white footage of swastika and we're introduced to a little fella named Adolf Hitler. Don't know if you've ever heard of him. I got to say that was a jarring transition.

I felt like the angry dad queued it right up. I pray to God no one ever has to do that again. And then boom, swastikas. Cue the Benny Hill theme, the irony. I always found it that insult of, you get away from you dirty German, I always found that insult strange for a kid. You think so in 1923?

Yeah, I mean, I know World War I just happened, but like, I don't know. I think it makes perfect sense. A kid, you know, raised with the propaganda and stuff. Yeah, I don't. Don't you know anything about war? Oh, I don't know. I always found that insult weird.

Can I point out a mistake? In my telling? No, a mistake in that scene of them. Sure. Okay. So, Rave's father, he's a farmer. He appears to be a crop duster. Right.

You know, he's flying the plane. Farring and walking? No. He's spraying pesticides on the fields. Crop dusting was not available to consumers until 1924 a year later. And there was a commercial service. You had to hire a company to crop dust your fields. So this is inaccurate.

Unless you took life by the balls, which I think this guy did. You know that I am having difficulty believing everything that you're telling me. And I don't believe this man would be a crop duster. Norm, is this the level of historical inaccuracies you're going to be pointing out? We'll be here all day. We'll be here longer than the movie. Good. Oh.

Good. We've got a lot to talk about, okay? Okay. So from there, you know, we've got the swast. because the Nazis look out. Here we are. It's 1941. We're on Long Island and we're doing Army Corps training. Danny and Rafe are added again. They are being very irresponsible in the air, flying their little planes around it, having too much fun. I did not enjoy these antics. At one point, they're flying at each other and they're trying to decide like, oh,

you go left or you go right or you go left or wait, my right or you're right. And it's, to me, It's every bit as unfunny as that stupid, who's on first? What's on second bit? Oh. What are you? That's a classic bit. I know, but it's not funny. I'm sure it killed in 1923 or whatever before they had crop dusting.

It's a word. It is, what's the phrase I'm on before? Outworned, it's welcome. What's that phrase? Outworn. Outworn. Worn out, it's welcome. Warned out, it's welcome.

Outwarned, it's welcome. Outwarmed. It's okay. I'm sorry. My mind is scattered right now. I can tell you're a little, are you okay? I'm okay. What's happening with you?

Go ahead and open up to us, Norm. I don't know. Our six YouTube members are listening to it. I keep thinking about Pearl Harbor. I can't get over it. Okay. So yeah, they're playing chicken in the air. Yes.

We have to pause because it's in this scene. We also meet a character named Red, who has a severe stutter. Do we learn anything more about him in this film? Not really. His name's red. He has a severe stutter. He's going to fall in love. End of story.

We don't have, it's only three hours in three minutes and seven seconds. We can't have character development. We literally know nothing about any of the characters. Yes. Not even the main ones. No. Maybe a little bit. We know Danny had an abusive father.

And Rave's father was a fake crop duster. He was a big fat phony. You want to talk about Alec Baldwin now? Yeah. Okay, so they get called into their commander's office, who is a major Jimmy Doolittle, played by the Alec Baldwin, and Doolittle reprimands them. He's like, God damn it, Rafe and Danny, you boys are causing trouble, but you're the best pilots we've got. Norman, I can tell which one of us watched this just one time and who watched it twice for the dialogue because only Rafe was in this scene because then Alex says to him,

just a few British pilots are all that stand between Hitler and total victory in Europe. You know, he does his Batman voice. Then we have a moment that I think we have too many times in this film. I'm calling it a don't be a hero. moment. Uh-huh. So, Alec Baldwin is supposed to ask him if he wants to be part of the Eagle Squadron.

It's something the Brits are creating for American pilots. It's a huge honor, but also it's for brave boys only. And he's like, just for the record, I'm supposed to ask you to reconsider. I'm not supposed to want you to go to this. And Ben Affleck's like,

I love you so much. What would you do if you were in my position? And Alec Baldwin's like, oh, I'd be brave and I'd go. And Ben's like, okay, I'll go. really over the top. Wow. It really is clear you watch

the movie multiple times because that's literally what the scene was like. It was so silly. The makeout scene was not needed. And wasn't historically accurate, Norm, you tell us. Okay. I'm about to reveal a major problem

with this scene. Several actually. There's a lot of issues with this scene. Okay. Okay. So number one, this isn't really inaccurate. But I find the Southern accent's bad and like not needed. Okay. Like I don't understand why they're from the south.

Like Ben Affleck is from Massachusetts, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like the actor is. Yeah. Josh Hartnett's from Minnesota. Okay. Why can't they just be two dudes from, I don't know, the Midwest or something?

I don't understand why they gave them southern accents. Why did they make them from Tennessee? My guess is they wanted to make them seem like just simple Southern boys caught up in a big war I think they were going for a vibe with this movie. Yeah, I just, I never liked the Southern accents. It may it's because I grew up in the South and I was very critical of the Southern accent. What did you think of Kate's accent? Kate Beckinsale?

Yeah. Oh, fine. Okay, I thought it was fine too. Yeah. A lot of people online think it sucked. No, it was fine. Yeah. More issues with this scene, Chris.

So Danny and Raff are stationed on Long Island under the command of Jimmy Doolittle. Jimmy Doolittle was a real person, but getting Alec Baldwin to play Jimmy Doolittle was a weird choice. So I'm going to describe Jimmy Doolittle. Five foot six bald man. Okay. Alec Baldwin is what, six foot four, had a full head of hair, just an odd casting choice, that's all. See, I disagree with you. I think for these characters who nobody really knows what they look like,

it's not that big a deal if they don't get an actor who looks exactly like him. Well, as a little War II teenage buff boy. Wait, did you know you were immediately? Hell yeah. I was like, that's not Jimmy Doolittle. Oh, my. Okay. Well, did the real Jimmy Doolittle do a lot of like gazing out windows and talking like this?

Because in that case, I mean, he nailed it. Honestly, I don't know, but that man did incredible things. We'll talk more about him later. Okay. Actually, I'm going to talk about him right now. Jimmy Doolittle was a decorated test pilot. He was an aerial engineer. He had a doctorate from MIT.

Oh. He was extremely valuable to the U.S. military. So he was studying, like, other countries' air forces because, you know, war was imminent. Mm-hmm. The idea that, like, he's training pilots on Long Island, the military would not waste Jimmy Doolittle's time doing that. Okay. So it's insane that he is their commanding officer. Because at the time, Jimmy Doolittle was converting automobile factories to aircraft production facilities.

Oh, that is slightly higher level than giving Ben Affleck a spanking for playing chicken in the air with Josh Hartnett. Exactly. Are you ready for the biggest problem with this scene? Sure. Okay. So in this scene, Jimmy Doolittle is telling Raff, you've been accepted into the Eagle Squadron, which is a British, squadron for American pilots to fight the Nazis. Right.

Here's a problem with this. Active duty military could not join the Eagle Squadron because the U.S. was neutral at that time. So if Rafe joins the Eagle Squadron, that would break all neutrality. It would cause an international crisis. Germany would be like, oh, the United States is attacking us. But though. Oh, my God, based on this. It's based on him leaving.

Oh, wow. So this just never happened. No, you had, you could not be active duty military if you wanted to fight in the Eagle Squadron. The Eagle Squadron was a real thing, but you had to be a civilian and volunteer. Now, if Ben Affleck resigned his position, that would have been believable, but the way it plays out, he could have been prosecuted for violating the Neutrality Act. Okay. Okay. Very good.

Take it away, Kristen. What happens next? Okay, we cut to a bunch of boys getting ready for a night out. I hate this. It's played for comedic effect. It's like they're talking about how they need to charm the ladies tonight. And the way to do it is they put this, I can't remember what substance they put under their eyes to make themselves cry. And the idea is, here's what you do.

You put this under your eyes and then you tear up and you tell her, baby, I'm going. into war. I don't know. You know, if I'm going to have another day, I want to spend it with you. And basically, it's a cute scene played for laughs about coercing a woman into sex with you. We all love it. There's not a problem with it at all. Anyhow. Cut to from there, a couple that has actual romantic chemistry. I'm talking, of course, about Ben and Josh. I swear to you, I know this is a love triangle and that Kate is supposed to be the central figure. I don't think there's bad acting in this movie. No, all very talented actors in this film.

But, and we'll get into Kate's character more, which is not a character at all, just kind of a flat sheet of paper. But somehow these men fall madly in love with her and it's a whole big deal. I think Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett are the only characters in this movie who have actual chemistry together. Yeah. They're best friends, Kristen. Yeah, but like I feel like if anyone's going to oopsies be thrown into a night of passion and bang each other, it's these two. It's not either one of them with Kate. So you're saying there's some like sexual tension here between the two.

I'm saying literally the only chemistry in this movie is between these two. Because here's the thing, they're having a bit of a fight. Josh is mad that Ben is being a big brave boy, but Ben lies and says, no, I was assigned to join the Eagle Squadron. Oh, I definitely didn't volunteer like a big brave boy. So, you know, we've got some lying. It's going to come up later on, okay? Lying isn't worth it.

And according to Norm, this whole thing is a lie. So I don't know what to believe. Yeah, honestly, Danny was right to question Rafe. Be like, why the hell are you going on Vigley? He should have said, you're violating the neutrality act when doing this. They'll throw you in the brig for this. So from there, we cut to a scene on the train. This is where we meet the ladies.

And if you're like, oh, my gosh, what are these ladies backstories? I'd love to know, like, a last name, maybe even a first name. Seriously, a first name. I don't, I remember two. Good for you. No one else remembers anything. Because the main thing is, these ladies are gorgeous. They're heading out to NYC.

They're excited to me. Meet men and get wild. Does this movie pass the Bechtel test? What's the Bechtel Test? Have you never heard of the Bechal Test? It sounds familiar, but remind me. Okay, so here's the official thing. The Bechdel Test is a simple way to measure the active presence and representation of women in films and other fiction.

So here are the three rules. Okay. To pass the test, a work of fiction must include, number one, at least two women, usually named characters. Okay, yeah, they had that. Have them talk to each other. Yes. About something other than a man. Ooh.

I don't think this past. I don't think so. In fairness, it's such a short film. Well, it's always the third one where it falls apart. Yeah. Question you might be asking yourself. Are all of the nurses who are part of the military hot? Yes, they are.

Our one exception is Jennifer Garne. who was wearing glasses. And in 2001, we counted that as ugly back then. You had to pop those specs off. And then you became hot again. There's a reason why I was really wanting contacts growing up. But my mom wouldn't get me contacts until I was like 16. She didn't want you to be hot, Norm.

She was trying to hold you back. Yeah. Yeah, she's jealous of all the attention I was getting. She knew what would happen. She saw she's all that. No, I think she said like, oh, your eyes are still growing and so you can't get it. This is probably some made-up excuse. Yeah, that's code for, I don't want to buy contacts.

Yeah, but honestly, I tried contacts and I hated them, and now I'm a glasses boy for life. For life, baby. Okay, so all these ladies, we know barely two of them. They're on a train. They're heading to New York City to hang out with the Army Air Boys, right? That's right. And this is where we meet Evelyn, aka Kate Beckins' Sail, not with the D. and she's talking about how she met Rave, aka Ben Affleck,

and how they are just really smitten. They've known each other for four weeks, but she sets us up with the tale of how they met. Excuse me, four weeks and two days. Oh, my God. You know what? You are an accurate ho. Thank you, Norman.

I tip my hat to thee. They met when it was medical exam time. Again, another scene that is played for a lot of laughs. All the boys have to get tetanish. shots in their booties, and these hot nurses are just stabbing, stabbing cheeks for comedic relief. I'm surprised you're able to watch that scene because you don't like needles. I don't, but I love punches to the butt, so, you know, it was a real mixed bag for me.

No, I have no idea why I was able to watch that. It's because none of it was close up. Yeah. It was all far away, and it just looked like they were stabbing them. Yeah. Frankly, they all looked like terrible nurses the way they did that. One historical and actually, I don't know if this is. It just seemed odd to me.

Uh-huh. So they are Navy nurses. Mm-hmm. Why are they administering medical exams to Army Air Corpsmen? Because the Army has their own medical personnel. Why is the Navy, like, giving Tetanus shots to Army men? I think these ladies just really wanted to jab some sailor butts and some other butts as well. I think Michael Bay didn't give a shit about who was in the Navy or Army.

Right. Michael Bay might not have had Wikipedia back then. That makes sense, right? Mm-hmm. Also, the ladies are writing a steam train into New York City. Oh, my gosh. Norman. And I believe steam trains were banned from New York City after a horrible accident in 1902. Future topic! Oh, God. Everyone, Norm pointed this out as we were watching the movie. He's like, is that a steam train? It shouldn't be a steam train. And I will say, this movie, especially this part where they're in New York City, you can tell someone on set got themselves a new toy. And it was a steam machine because every time they were out, the amount of steam in the air is everywhere. It was all over the place.

They were very excited about their machine. And it did make the scenes look pretty cool and romantic. You got to admit. Very cinematic. Yeah. There's a reason they use the steam train. Yeah, this movie is too cinematic all the time. We'll get to that later.

Anyhow, this is where we find out Rave has dyslexia, but he charms Evelyn. She passes him, hey, go ahead and fly a plane. No big deal. You're cute. Then he steals some soldiers form so he can talk to her again. In the course of that, she jabs him with tetanus needles several times. He gets all woozy because now he's just been shot up with all the tetanus stuff. And he's trying to hit on her.

It's at this point that we do learn one. thing about this woman's character. And I hope it's enough for all of us because it's the only thing we are ever going to learn about her. Her father was a pilot. Yep, that's it. That's literally it. We'll learn nothing else about her.

But her dad was a pilot. And Ben Affleck is trying to hit on her, aka Rafe. But he's struggling. He's woozy. And he says, Miss, I really, really lick you. I mean like you. Ooh.

Oh, sexy times. I heard this was the scene where RFK Jr. decided that vaccines were bad because he saw how Woozy. Yeah. Ben Affleck got. And he was like, there's something going on with these vaccines. Yes, yes. There's something they're not telling us. But they told us in the 2001 film, Pearl Harbor.

Michael Ben, he was trying to communicate with us. Okay, now we're out at a nightclub. We have a nice little moment where, you know, one of the guys tries his coercive tactics with the stuff under his eyes. And the lady is like, why are you crying? And then she says something like, well, Tuts, I'm going to have you tonight. So this is the kind of humor that we dealt with for a long time in movies where it was like, guys were doing something creepy to women, but they didn't pull it off. And so then we could all laugh about it. hilarious.

I'm just now unclenching my butthole from watching that yesterday. He did get away with it, though, because it worked. She was grossed out by him crying, and he was like, oh, okay, well, I just wanted to. And she's like, well, come on, let's do it. So if someone were to analyze it, I'm sure at the time they were like, this is good because it's showing she has agency and she was going to hook up with him regardless. But no, it's not good. Very feminist movie, Rower. No, not at all.

I think that's what you're saying. No. Okay, so they're hanging out the nightclub. The boys are hooking up with the nurses. What's going on with Raph and Evelyn? They are on the most ridiculous date you've ever seen in your life. This is another thing I do not like about this movie. It is so over the top.

When you think about actual Pearl Harbor and you think about actual war, young people in this position, you can see how, like, emotions, really would run high and there would be these over the top feelings and there would be this like, hey, yeah, let's do something together. But this next scene is so stupidly over the top that it makes the whole thing feel fake. But I do think this is a real phenomenon that like before someone goes off to war, before someone enlists, like the emotions get heightened and people do things that they wouldn't normally do. Yeah.

So what does Ben do? Let's see here. So Raph takes Evelyn out on a boat around a New York Harbor and then they hang out on this platform on the Queen Mary ship. This is very, we wish this was the movie Titanic. Tragically, it is not. So there's no boat for them to float on, but they're on this platform. Yeah. And that's where they share a kiss.

Oh. Can I point out an inaccuracy? Please do. So they're hanging out by the Queen. Mary, that's a British ship. Uh-huh. And during that time, the British used that ship as a troop transport because they were actually fighting in the war at the time.

So the Queen Mary would not be docked in the New York Harbor. Well, what if Rave needed it as a cool backdrop for his date? I mean, clearly he did. And it worked. He got that kiss. He got that kiss also, again, for comedic effect, the little platform they're on. Oopsies banana peel. It slips.

and, you know, whoa. Also, they're super cringy dialogue because they're like holding each other and she's like, what will become of us, Rafe? And I was like, people don't talk like this. Norman. Who says what will become of us? Norman, what will become of us with you talking this way

on our podcast? People love this stuff. Anyway, they have their little date, they have their little comedic moment with the platform, but then they go back to the hotel. What happened? Kristen. Oh my gosh. Okay. Everybody, get ready. Okay, picture it everyone. This is the moment where Rafe tells Evelyn that he is going off to war tomorrow with the Eagle Squadron. He's

going to be a big brave boy. And here's how it goes. Evelyn, I don't understand. You're in the U.S. Army. How could they order you to go? That's a great point, Evelyn. I wonder why. Rafe, they didn't order me. I volunteered. Evelyn, she's devastated. But I passed you. I let you through. And now you volunteer for the most dangerous place you could go. Rave, it's not your responsibility. Not your choice. Flying is the only thing I've ever wanted to do. Everything I've ever done has led me to this point, meeting you. I love you. I love you so much. Let's go inside.

So they start to go into the hotel. Okay. We all know what's going to happen. Sexy times. By the way, Evelyn doesn't say I love you back. Right. I noticed that in the movie, too. There was no time.

Ouch. They get through the revolving door. But Rafe says, wait! Wait! I can't do this. I mean, I can. I want to. I'm not trying to be noble.

I just, I don't want to be like everybody else. I don't want you to have anything about tonight that you regret. He tells her, he doesn't want her to come say goodbye. at the train station tomorrow because saying goodbye to you once is hard enough. I also, I apologize. I got a little mixed up here in my notes. There's another cringy scene that I sailed on past, but I'm not going to let you get away with not hearing about it.

At one point earlier in their courtship, you know, it's been a whole four weeks and two days. Ben gets some champagne and he pops it and oops, the cork hits him in the nose. and Evelyn like takes him in her lap and he says you're so beautiful it hurts and she says it's your nose that hurts and he says I think it's my heart oh and they get oh this movie oh god oh that line's bad I'm sorry I saw that and I was like oh no no I can't let that go away Oh, oh, here's another one that we can't let go. Okay, you know, there's going to be the love triangle.

So they do have the moment where they see Josh, aka Danny at the party. Danny's a little bit of a shy boy. He's not talking to Jennifer Garner. He's a little intimidated. And Raph is explaining to Evelyn, he's like my brother. He's like my best friend, my right hand. And Evelyn says, which at the moment is a long way south of my waist. And then, you know, pilot.

So he says, oh, I'm sorry, I lost a little altitude. And she goes, yeah, I guess you did. This fucking movie. I've got an erection over here. We all do. You've gained altitude, Norman. Blast off. Oh, oh, now I'm sorry.

My notes are such a mess. When we're talking about the guy who's crying to try to get the lady to sleep with them. I don't know his name. Her, no one does. She says, dry your eyes, Tuts, tonight, you're mine. So that's her, you know. Right. She was like, you didn't have to play this trick on me.

I was going to have sex with you. I was going to bang you no matter what, because I'm a rapist. No one saw that line coming. I didn't. They really shouldn't have included the rapes in for all. Totally unnecessary. So anyway, yada, yada, yada. Raph and Evelyn do not bang.

That's the thing you have to know. They are very much in love, the most in love anyone's ever been. Yeah, and Raph is like, when I'm over there fighting those Nazis, I need something to look forward to. So it's like he's like, he wants to like dream of banging Evelyn. Oh, no. Being with her. They're in love, Norman. Yeah, whatever.

Okay. So then, you know, he says, don't meet me at the train station. It'd be too sad to see him twice. Yeah, too difficult. Yeah. But he's there with little Joshy boy, Danny. And he's like, I'll let you in on a secret. I am looking for her.

And that's because I will know she really loves me if she shows up. Red flag. Playing games. We're playing games. So, but then she doesn't show up. Oh, no. He gets on the train. But, oh, wait, she does show up.

She's just running late. And, you know, she can't see him, but he does see her and he is satisfied because he knows she really loves him. My question about this scene. Yes. Why is Rafe getting on a train? So he's going to England, right? Yes. He's currently in New York City, which is more than likely where he needs to be to get to England.

Uh-huh. Where the fuck is he going on the train? Where's he going? Norm, do you not understand the romance of a train station? I mean, it's clearly why they added this scene, but they didn't think about where is he going? They just hoped you wouldn't think about it. So Ben slash Rave arrives in Great Britain. The scene takes place in front of a mansion, a palace, a castle.

All I know is it needs a power wash like you would not believe. But there was no time because it was wartimes. That's right. And then we have some good dialogue. Are we ready for a big brave boy dialogue moment? We've got plenty of them. Oh, I think I know what line you're talking about. There are actually a lot.

Okay, so I don't know who his new commander is. So I'm just calling him New Boss. Lieutenant British Boy. Oh, I thought you were about to say a real one. When you said Lieutenant, I was like, oh, my. New Boss says, are all Yanks as anxious as you to get themselves killed, pilot officer? Rave says, no, sir. Not anxious to die, sir.

Just anxious to matter. Oh, that's the line. God, that line's bad. Oh, I'm sorry, Norman. Do you not admire this? Sorry, he's so brave in the face of all those Nazis. Ridiculous. Okay, from here, we cut to the White House.

Oh, excellent. We're going to see FDR. What happens in this scene? I cannot tell you a word of it because I could not stop focusing on the fact that they spent a gazillion dollars on this movie. And by the time it came around to get John Voight, that's the actor who plays FDR, right? When the time came for him to get into some makeup to make him look more like FDR, the budget was gone. This makeup, they put a butt chin on him and like a little extra neck. You can see the line where you see the actual texture of his real skin and how that in no way resembles the silly putty that they affixed to his lower face.

I couldn't tell you a word that man said because all I could think was fake butchin, fake butchin, fake butchin. How did this happen? Yeah, and it's too bad because I actually thought John Voight did a good job playing FDR and like he got the voice really well. That is a shame. Okay, that's the stuff I noticed. Did you notice how bad it was?

Yeah, his makeup is not good. But yeah, there's a meeting in the White House and FDR is upset. The British and the Russians, they're fighting the Nazis. we're at home building refrigerators while they're building bombs. This is why we're good podcasters together because all I could think about was the butt chin, but you actually got the scene down. Thank you for that. Yeah.

So here's the problem with this scene, Kristen. Oh. So this takes place like January, 1941. Okay. Yeah. At that time, number one, the Russians were not fighting the Germans. They had a pact to not attack you. other. Okay. So FDR is demanding we help the Russians. Like the Russians aren't

fighting the Germans right now. So that's inaccurate. Also this idea of like the U.S. is making fridges and they're making bombs. That's not true. Like the U.S. ramped up. Fridges weren't invented yet. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the United States was selling weapons and tanks and supplies. to the allies, they had definitely ramped up production to assist the allies. It was very clear what side the United States. I was going to say, not very neutral of us. Not that I'm mad about it.

They were technically neutral. Okay. But it was very clear who the United States was supporting. Right. Okay. Now we're going to cut to Japan, all right? Oh, God. This is where.

Now, Norman, I've got to say, I'm going to be fascinated to hear what you think of all this. I saw some commentary online and I was like, oh, that's interesting. over my head big time, which I feel like is going to be my reaction to everything you say. I will say the acting. I can't remember who did the talking in this scene. Admiral Yamamoto? Probably. Okay.

Here was his line. And he doesn't deliver it in English. Yeah. But the line is, there is only one way, a massive sudden strike. We will annihilate their Pacific Fleet in a single attack at Pearl Harbor. Norm, I got to tell you, he delivered that with such a sudden strike. that with such conviction and the music was so good that I swear to you for a split second, I forgot whose side I was on.

Oh no. I was like, yeah, greatest! Yes! And then I said, not happening. Nope, nope, nope. Yeah, the portrayal of the Japanese in this movie is very odd. Tell me more. Right away, something I noticed is the previous scene was FDR with a lot.

His cabinet members and, like, top military brass. And he's like, we're going to build tanks for the Germans. Or not the Germans. He's so confused. Poor FDR, that Butchins got to his brain. But then it cuts to the Japanese. And over in Japan, it seems as though they hold their top military meetings on, like, a bamboo hut patio. Yes.

Outdoors. It didn't even occur to me how stupid that was. I just thought it was very nice. With like, you know. It was beautiful. Like banners. Sure. And like.

Kind of like an outdoor church service now that I'm thinking about it. And there's like children playing with kites like right next to them. By the way, this is a top secret military meeting about what to do. Yes. They are running out of natural resources. Uh-huh. Which was true. And I'm going to get into in a minute.

Huge meeting. We are deciding to attack the Pacific Fleet. at Pearl Harbor and there are children literally running around next to them. Norman, thank you for this moment. This all went way over my head. I didn't think about how ridiculous it was that like, yeah, we're all going to get together in a place that is clearly visible from the sky, from the air, from the sea. Anyone can see us.

I'd hate for anything to happen to us right now. Yeah, it's ridiculous. Well, it's kind of a stereotypical like, oh, the Japanese or, They live this simple life and they're kind of primitive and very zen-like and like, it's that kind of bullshit. It's like, you know, there were buildings in Japan, okay? They had office buildings. They were all booked that day, Norm. That's why they had to go outside.

This room's booked. They didn't have we work. They wanted it, but they didn't have it. In the movie, the Japanese commander, Admiral Yamamoto, says, basically, we're running out of oil. Yeah. We have to get more oil, and the United States is preventing us from getting oil, so we're just going to annihilate the United States Pacific Fleet so we can get more oil, which is a very simplistic explanation of why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. It is technically accurate. Okay. But I want to kind of get into more details.

Yeah, yeah. Japan was a militaristic nationalist country. They wanted to expand. They wanted to modernize. and when you want to do that, you need resources. You need coal, iron, copper, oil. The works. The problem is Japan as a country lacks a lot of those natural resources. So they relied heavily on trade, and they relied heavily on, oh, well, we'll just invade your country and take your natural resources. Okay.

And so there were kind of two schools of thought with Japan. One of them was the Army said, let's invade northern China, kind of near the right. Russian border. Yeah. There's a lot of oil up there. Okay. The Navy said, let's go south. Like the South Pacific were like the Philippines, French Indochina, places like that.

New Guinea. They tried the Army's idea. They kind of stalled out in northern China. It kind of reached a stalemate. And so they said, okay, we're going to try the Navy's idea. The problem is the United States, France, Britain, they had a lot of old colonies in the South Pacific. You know, the U.S., the Philippines was a United States territory.

And so the United States was warning Japan, stay away. You cannot take these countries. They belong to our allies to try to prevent Japan from taking those islands. The United States had trade embargoes. They cut off their oil supply because Japan was buying 80% of their oil from the United States. Oh, okay. And so this was a big problem for Japan. Yeah.

And so there were a lot of negotiations of like, hey, let's work something out. You know, okay, we'll promise not to invade this island, but like at least give us this one, you know. Throughout 1941, those negotiations are going on, but they're so far apart. Yeah. Because the United States is basically like you have to withdraw all of your forces from China. You stay away from all of these islands. And we'll just keep trading with you. And Japan's like, absolutely not.

Yeah. Yeah, in the movie, it basically is like, we need oil and the U.S. isn't giving it to us, so we're going to attack the United States. Again, technically, that's basically why. Well, and I did enjoy the simplicity. I was on board. I was ready to get in a plane. Yeah. But I think the bigger problem with that scene is they're having a top secret military meeting in like an outdoor bamboo hut patio.

It's just weird. It's weird. Norman, I feel so dumb for not clocking that as weird. at all. Instead, I was like, how beautiful. Don't we all enjoy an outdoor meeting? What a, what a lovely setting for a top secret military meeting. Oh, you know, when they took down Osama, they did that in Central Park. I don't know if you knew that one. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hello picnic.

Yeah, just right out there in the open. Catered by Arby's, is what it was. The delivery driver arrived as soon as they said zero dark 30. No, thank you for that context. So does that make more sense? It makes way more sense. Yeah. And frankly, I've always kind of wondered, well, why'd they do that to us? And that makes a lot more sense.

Yeah. So Japan wanted those islands in the South Pacific. Japan had bigger goals and they felt like we were, and well, we were. We were standing in the way of their goals. Their goal was we're going to annihilate the United States Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor. we are going to invade those islands in the South Pacific and then we are going to entrench ourselves in the South Pacific and we believe the United States will not want to wage war against us

across an ocean. That was what they believed. It did not work out that way. The United States was like, how fucking dare you? And they island hopped. They went island to island to island, destroying every Japanese force they could. Norm, you know how I know. Long, drawn-out war.

It didn't work out. It's because I watched the movie Pearl Harbor. That's right. Okay, so now we're cutting to everyone's getting deployed to Oahu. Yeah, everyone's getting deployed to Pearl Harbor. And boy, does it look nice. Everyone is having a great time. The nurses all look hot as hell because these are ornamental characters. Oh, yeah. So the nurse, there's like seven nurses.

Yes. Apparently they get their own private boat. They arrive. That's weird, isn't it? They arrive with like a beautiful looking car. They're like, it's like a pinup shot. Yes. They're all wearing these like Hawaiian beach outfits with sunglasses.

They look incredible. And the sailors are hooting and hollering. Yeah, woo. Yeah. Like, hey boys. Hey boys. Yeah, you don't watch this movie and walk away with a whole lot of respect for anybody. I mean, because it's.

And again, I do think if someone were to do a realistic movie, this would be so fascinating. because there are these dynamics of like sex and war and kind of the politics of it all and the power dynamics. Like it could be really fascinating and really it could really tug at your heartstrings and all the other strings too. But not the way they do it here. No. No. Also we see a scene where the actor Michael Shannon is learning how to surfboard. That's cool.

It just kind of shows that we're just all having fun here. We're not ready for an attack. So they throw in this quirk of Michael Shannon's character. His name is Goose. Uh-huh. He's a surfer, and he claims he's invented, like, a fin for his surfboard. It's going to change the world. Yeah.

Number one, that is never mentioned again in the entire movie. Yes. Yes, it feels like it's building to something. And, two, a surfboard fin was invented five years before that, so. Inaccurate. Also, again, in a movie where so many of these central characters have no backstory. Zero. Michael Shannon, who is a very minor character, we get this weird thing about him and his surfboard and how he's got these big plants.

Where? Why? What are we doing? We don't know. But Evelyn has a dad who was a pilot. That's all you get to know about her. That's right. Okay.

Now we're cutting to our boy Ray. he's over there fighting the Nazis and you know what it's not fun and I've got evidence because I've got the letters Oh you wrote letters to Evelyn We all love a wartime letter And these are a bit dramatic I'm going to read you one from Rafe to Evelyn

And I'll let you all guess At what point in this letter I laughed very loudly and inappropriately during the film Okay here we go Dear Evelyn, it's different than I thought it would be here. It's cold. So cold, it goes deep in your bones. There is one place I can go to to find warmth.

That is to think of you. I just wish I could be back there with you. It's not easy making friends. Two days ago, I had a beer with a couple of the RAF pilots. Yesterday, both of them got killed. Hey, that's not funny. Norman! I think it was the delivery.

It's when he said, it's not easy making friends. I thought, no, no, he's not going to say because everyone ends up dying. He sure did, sure did. Oh, man. The second I make a connection with somebody, boop, they're dead. Can I pull you aside for a quick chat? Oh, he's dead now? Damn.

Are you ready for Evelyn's letter back to him? Yes, which I'm sure she wrote in a bikini. You know she did. With, okay, yeah, they do. With a little flower in her hair, right? They do quite a job with these scenes. You know, Rave is just out there doing the Lord's Work. It's dark, stormy nights.

He's sad, cold, dirty. And Evelyn has a flower in her hair. She's writing her letters exclusively beachside in a bikini. Sunshining, looking great. Here's her letter. Dear Raph, I miss you so much. It's so strange to be. be a half a world away from you. Every night I look at the sunset and try to draw the last

ounce of its heat from this long day and send it from my heart to yours. Oh, my goodness. Why don't you write me letters like that? Or an email, maybe a text. I'll take a text too. Okay, are we ready for a little foreshadowing, a little exposition. Again, we're in Great Britain. We've got Rafe's new big boss who's so impressed with him. The British guy, yeah. Uh-huh. And he says,

a lot of people frown on the Yanks for not being in this war yet. I'd just like to say, if there are many more like you, God help anyone who goes to war with America. Oh, I... And he says, I'm looking at you, Japan! He didn't say that, but we knew he was saying that. We knew in a way. I rolled my eyes so much at that line.

That is just like the most like jerk off. Yeah. USA, USA line. Yeah, it is. I hated it. And it's honestly, it's like insulting to what the British were doing at that time. It's true the British wanted the U.S. to help them. Well, of course.

Of course. But like the British. Could we get a little help fighting Nazis? Sure. They were taking the brunt of German aggression at that time. Right. They were like the last line of defense. Yeah.

Okay. They deserve way more credit than that stupid-ass line of, God, help whoever has to fight the Yanks! By the way, it's, well, I'm not going to spoil it. Okay. And then we get another scene. I love a scene like this. This is where we get a scene with the U.S. Navy and the commanders

are talking about how, hey, they don't have to worry about an attack on Pearl Harbor because it just kind of can't happen for a lot of reasons. You know, the harbor's too shallow. Don't worry about it. We're not worried. I'm not worried. Are you worried? I'm not.

And to me, it's giving that scene in the beginning of Titanic when he's like, yep, you can't sink this ship. God himself cannot sink this ship. That's why we don't have all the lifeboats we need because we'll never need them. Yeah. And then we cut back to Japan. And they are absolutely planning an attack on Pearl Harbor. The very thing we said we'd never do.

And we learned they put wooden fins on the torpedoes, which will enable them to go through the shallow harbor. Damn it all to hell. And then, if that weren't bad enough, we see Rave's plane getting shot down. So now, not a moment too soon. We are three years into this movie. It feels like anyway.

We finally see Doris Miller, subject of last week's episode. Yes. And he is boxing. And they're boxing on the ship. And played by Cuba Gooding Jr. How big is Cuba Gooding Jr., though? Because they had him fighting this dude who was way bigger than him.

And you told me that Doris Miller's nickname was power. Let's see. So Doris Miller was 6 foot 3. Cuba Gooding Jr. is 5'10. Yeah, and looked every bit. of it, I got to say. Yeah. So maybe not a great casteroids.

Cuba Gooden Jr.'s a great actor. He was great. But, um... It's a shame. We only got three minutes of footage of him in this massive film. Yeah. So, uh, Doris Miller wins the fight. Woo-hoo.

We're all excited. Uh, afterward, he goes to see Nurse Evelyn for stitches. And so, Norm, I've got to criticize you a little bit in last week's episode. You felt the need to just go on and on with this context about racism and the Navy and all this stuff. In this movie, they somehow sum up in like 15 seconds. Are you ready? Evelyn. What do you get for winning? Doris. Respect. Evelyn. So why do you have to fight with your fists to get respect? Doris. I left my mama in Texas, joined the Navy to see the world, become a man. They made me a cook. Not even that. I clean up after other sailors eat. Two years,

They never even let me fire a weapon. Evelyn, well, let's hope you never have to. And their racism has been explained to you. No, it's not. No, no. Racism, without the word racism explained, without anything like this is explicitly a thing that happens to black sailors. Yeah, they never mention that it's because he's black is why he was a mess attendant and why he could never rise above a mess. attendant and why he was not allowed to fire a weapon. It was racism because he was black.

Norm, there's no time to get into that because who cares Josh Hartnett just pulls up on the scene to tell her that Ben Affleck is dead. Oh, we skipped over him getting shot down. No, we didn't. I said his plane got shot down. Oh, well, I have problems with that scene. Oh, well, go ahead. You don't want him to die. Let's finish talking about Doris Miller. Okay. At the end of that conversation, she goes, you take care, petty officer Miller. Uh, inaccurate, Doris Miller was not a petty officer at that time. He was eventually made a petty officer. And then finally, the book I read on Doris Miller mentioned this scene where he's being treated by Evelyn.

Oh, uh-huh. And they specifically were like, that would have been so taboo for a black man to go by himself to get treated by a white nurse. Yeah, that would have happened. And they were like, that probably just would not have happened. No. And I thought that's a great point. Yeah. But again, racism does not exist in this film.

Well, it's kind of happening, but we don't really want to talk about it. Let's not mention it. Yeah. We're kind of implying that's what's going on. Yeah. Yeah, it's Disney. So let's go easy. Let's go easy.

Okay. So Rave gets shot down by some Germans. Mm-hmm. They're in a dog fight near the cliffs of Dover or whatever. Right. The only thing I want to mention about that, in the movie that's taking place in like the spring of 1941. The Battle of Britain, which is where these dog fights happened, that ended in October of 1940. So like this whole battle scene would probably not have happened.

By then the British were doing aerial operations in France. They were kind of a little more aggressive because Germany moved most of their air force to the Russian front because they were getting ready to invade Russia and break. that pact they had with the Russians. Yeah. It was a good scene, a good action scene, but like, probably wouldn't have happened. Danny shows up to see Evelyn after she treats Doris Miller, but he's there to share some bad news. And that's that Rafe has been shot down and he's dead. Yes.

It is terrible. Also, Evelyn mentions to him that Raif volunteered to go over there. Danny is shocked. He did not know that. Betrayal and grief. rolled into one. And then Danny was like, wait a minute, he is not allowed to join the Eagle Squadron. He has violated the Neutrality Act.

He should have been arrested. Sadly, Norm, that did not happen. And we have no time for it because now we've got to go back to Japan. They are planning their attack. It has to be a surprise. So they set up radio operators to send out messages for the Americans to struggle with, you know, try to figure out. Which was true. Well, of course.

Yeah. The Japanese plan was to send out as many signals as possible and kind of make it confusing for decoders and U.S. intelligence of like what is going on. Where are they going to attack? And then we get some more great lines of dialogue. This is when, you know, the admiral is receiving a compliment from someone who's under him. He says, brilliant admiral. And the admiral says, a brilliant man would find a way not to. to fight a war.

Horrible line. Norm, was he just humble or was he suffering from some low self-esteem? What do we think was happening there? Well, a couple things wrong. Number one, a lot of the lines by the Japanese are like these like adages, mantras, like, again, this whole like Zen Buddhist-like. Yeah, the dialogue is stupid for everyone. Japan, you know, we held meetings in bamboo huts and stuff. something I wanted to mention about the Japanese throughout this entire movie, it's almost like they're sad for what they're about to do.

Hmm. You know what I mean? Yeah. They just like exist and they're like, we're doing this thing. But we kind of don't want to. But we must. But we must. This will decide the fate of our empire.

You know, that whole thing? Yeah, yeah. And we'll get more into it later. Okay. A line like that, like a great man. would find a way to not fight a war. It's a weird line. Because it's like, well, if that's really how you feel, what are we doing here?

Why are we in our outdoor meeting space? Yeah. So now we cut to Washington, D.C. 1941. Jump scare, it's Dan Aykroyd. He is playing a man named Captain Harold Thurman. Not a real person, a character made up for the movie. And Dan Aykroyd is onto the Japanese. He knows about these messages.

They're designed to confuse him. and he's really worried about it, but is anyone listening to him? No, they are not because he's Dan Aykroyd. They can't take him seriously. It's terrible. Okay, so now we're moving forward, three months. Okay, and three months is definitely enough time

to totally forget about the guy who you were really into for like four weeks and two days, right? We all agree. Three months, yep. It's literally triple the amount of time you knew that man. So Danny and Evelyn are together. Ooh. They tell stories.

There is no chemistry between. them at all. None. Again, we somehow learn nothing new about Evelyn. They don't have a moment where they seem to click in any real way. Right. They're talking about Rave. At the end of the night, he asks if she wants him to walk her home.

She says, no, but uh-oh, she left her hanky behind on the table. So he does go to her place where she's staying with all the nurses because they're just having a great time living in the real world. I mean, it's like that reality showed the real world. That's what I'm saying. Seven friends, no rules. He shows up with her hanky. Yeah.

And she's there in her nightgown. Oh, my gosh. And Jennifer Garner is there with her curlers. Oh, my gosh. And he asks if he could come by sometime, maybe give her a call. And she's like, um, maybe. And the next day at work, all her nurse friends are like, life is for the living.

You should totally bang Josh Hartnett. I mean, Danny. The next day, she shows up to his work, dressed ridiculously. In like a tight red dress. Bright red dress. It's insane. It's insane. Also, Red, don't know if you remember Red.

He's the guy who stutters. When he's nervous. He proposes to Betty. And that actually is really a sweet moment, but we don't know much about them either. Betty is another nurse. She has a little bit of a backstory. She also gets a little bit of a backstory that she lied about her age to join the military. Yeah.

And now she's engaged. age to red and life's so crazy like that. Life is so wonderful. You're going to take a chance. Speaking of wonderful, you know, Rafe took Evelyn on the date in front of Titanic. Right.

Slash Queen Mary. Danny takes her on a date where he basically steals a military airplane for a while, flies her around and it does a barrel roll. And they're like, I mean, I don't know how close you are in these planes, but she's basically in his lap. It looks like a good time. and they're just having a ball up there in the air.

Yeah, that was not a barrel roll. What was it? Technically, it's an aileron. It's an aileron role. It's not a barrel roll. Oh, my God. Common misconception. And you know what?

She knew that because her dad was a pilot. She did not know that. She didn't even know what it was called. When they finally land after their night of fun, you know, they land the plane. And someone yells, hey, that plane was supposed to be back here an hour ago. go. Yeah, and they're like, oh, let's get out of here. Let's hide in the parachute hanger.

Which is right there, by the way. They're not running far. They go into the parachute hangar. They run inside. And it's parachutes that are all hanging in there. Some parachutes are down on the ground, and they start wrapping themselves in them dancing in the parachute. Oh, we see shadows, steamy makeout sessions.

Then they lay down on the parachutes. We see Evelyn in her silky drawers. This movie is rated PG-13, so we just have to imagine what happens next. Are they worried about the dude who was yelling about the airplane, who was clearly within shouting distance? No, they're not. I was worried, but no, they were not worried. They were just trying to bang.

In the most romantic Love Island could never scenario possible. Is that the, what's it called in Love Island, the hideaway? The hideaway. Has it been a parachute? This is ridiculous. This is the second. sexiest parachute hangar there's ever been. Cut to the next morning.

Danny's thrilled. Well, yeah. He's very happy with what happened. He's so excited. But Evelyn is practicing her last night was a mistake speech. But they see each other. Danny's like, I'm into you.

Who cares if it's too fast? She's like, well, I guess I don't care either. And they are in love. Yep. They have a little date on the beach. In their little swimsuits. They're kissing some more. The outfits are good in this movie.

They had some cute little outfits. And then, you know, more corny dialogue. Evelyn asked Rafe long ago, what will become of us? Uh-huh. And now she's asking Danny, what will happen if we go to wall? Mm-hmm. You know, these big, big, broad questions for her man. Yep, yep.

Does he give a satisfying answer? I don't think so. No, who cares? Yeah. Because then we cut to a scene. And we all know what this means. Evelyn's with her gal pals in their real world mansion and she's spending too long in the bathroom.

The other ladies are annoyed and she comes out of the bathroom looking a little like, oh, and also like maybe she just vomited. And we know she's prego in the ego from the parachute hangar. It wouldn't be funny if she was just taking a massive dump. Shouldn't have had that Hawaiian burger at the bar. That was a huge mistake. It had ghost peppers on it. Okay, now we're back in D.C.

Oh, boy. We got Captain Thurman, aka Dan Aykroyd. He knows what's up, okay? He knows that they are going to be under attack. He's telling people they're going to attack Pearl Harbor again. No one's taking him seriously. Then he starts arguing a bit with the Admiral. It's not going to go well because this Admiral is doing the big bad boy move that you see in movies a lot,

where he gets really close to your face and he's talking like this. And that's how you know they mean business. I've got some dialogue. I'd like to read for you soon. Oh, let's hear it. Captain Thurman. It's the worst thing that could happen. A blow to Pearl would devastate the Pacific Fleet's ability to make war. Admiral.

So, sir, you would have us mobilize the entire fleet at the cost of millions of dollars based on this spine-tingling feeling of yours? Captain Thurman. No, sir. I understand my job is to gather and interpret material, making difficult to say, based on incomplete information from my limited decoding ability is your job, sir. And the admiral gets right in his face. Okay. You can see the breath you're hitting Dan Akron's nose.

Oh, yeah. And he says, then break the damn naval code, Captain, so I can make a better decision. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Pressure's on, Danny. It is true that United States military intelligence could not break the Japanese naval code. And it is true that when that happens, the guys in charge would get really close to the little guy's faces and they'd say things really seriously. In reality, one of the biggest issues at that time was there was no central intelligence agency in the military.

So like the Navy had intelligence, the Army had intelligence. So it was kind of uncoordinated. Yeah. They had all sorts of information. There was an American ambassador in Japan who wrote them a letter, like in early 1941 that was like, I am hearing rumblings of an attack on Pearl Harbor. Oh. But the U.S. was like, we need evidence.

We need documents. Like, how do you know this? Yeah. And it kind of just slipped. Sliped through the, you know, through the cracks. Yeah. Here's the thing. The United States knew Japan was going to attack.

they just didn't know where. But the idea that they're like, there's no way they're going to attack Pearl Harbor. That's not true. They knew Pearl Harbor was a possible target. Yeah, Dan Aykroyd was telling them the whole time. Yeah. I mean, there's a reason why they moved the entire Pacific Fleet to Pearl Harbor. And honestly, that whole story of like American intelligence and like the Japanese are planning this attack,

it's a really interesting part of the story. It's like a cat and mouse game because, yeah, the United States was looking for this Japanese fleet that like went completely missing. Yeah. They had no idea where they were. They kind of just nibble at it. Well, in the filmmaker's defense, who cares about that? Ben Affleck is about to come back from the dead.

Oh, right. Okay? So he returns. It is December 6th, 1941. All right? I don't know if that date means anything to anybody. Wow. He pops up.

Evelyn is like, oh, because she knows she's Prego. And they kiss, but he knows something ain't right. Yeah, she's kind of like hesitant. She's kind of pulling back a little. And it's like, come on, baby. I've been thinking about you and your coos for months now. Oh, Norman, no, he was a gentleman. He didn't go into the hotel like all those other boys.

He had coos on the mine. So, well, we all did. So she says, Rave, you died. So did I. And he's kind of like, huh? What do you mean? This doesn't make sense. Then all of a sudden, that bitch Danny shows up, his best friend.

So he thought. And Rave just puts it together. He sees all up. And he realizes they've been together. Rave swallows the pain. He storms off into the night. He tells Danny, stay away. But as we see in this next scene, Danny did not stay away.

That's right. They go to the hula bar. Danny shows up at the hula bar. Raff is already there in the middle of a story talking about how some Nazis will shoot you from behind. But then he looks at Danny and says, like some Americans will. Ooh.

Ouch. At this point, Michael Shannon, who again is a very minor character, but has some weird moments, is so impressed with Ben's stories that he offers the shirt off his back. It's a Hawaiian shirt, but not the kind of the Kool-Aid man wears.

we're talking like muted colors, Hollister, Circa 2001. Raff will wear this for the most important scenes of the movies. So he's looking hot and cool. Okay. There's tension. The guys at the bar suggest that maybe Rave and Danny should sit and talk. But Rave says no. Are we ready for the hot boys to be mad at each other, Norman?

Rave. We're celebrating. Me over there fighting, almost getting killed. My friend Danny back here looking after my interests for me. You all know Danny was even good enough to look after my girl for me while I was gone? Danny gets in his face. He's kind of emotional. We thought you were dead, Raph.

And it gutted us both. And we were just trying to get on with our lives. Rave. Life is good, ain't it, Danny? Danny. You're a rotten drunk. You always have been. You know, it does kind of seem like they're a couple.

Raph. Well, you're a lousy friend. That's a new development. Ooh. Danny gets in his face again. You left her to fight somebody else's war, and you made damn sure that I didn't go with you, and we thought you were dead.

Then Raph stands up. You know, he's been seated at the bar this whole time, but now he's a big boy. And he says, I almost did die, you all sort of a bit. Her face was the last thing that went through my mind, so go stand there and tell me to act like it's all right. Danny says,

Yeah, well, I stayed. You made sure that, and some things changed. And I hope you can get used to that. Yeah. And Raph. He goes, I have to get used to it. All right. We'll see how I get used to it.

And then, boom, he punches Josh Hart in the face. And he goes, get used to that, boy. I don't remember that line. Wow. And boy, do they fight in tussle? And I just think, boys, oh my gosh, stop. Stop fighting over me. Stop.

Stop. I don't want this. Oh, no. Oh, don't rip off the Hawaiian shirt. Rave said, I should have never hit your dad with that two by four. What was I thinking? You turn around and do this to me. Now, Norm, we're having fun at the hula bar.

It's a wild scene. But, uh-oh, we got to cut back to Japan. Oh, we're back. And the filmmakers did us a real solid here because there is a gigantic tear-off calendar on the wall. Oh, I do love that part. And it reveals that it is officially December 7th, 1941. Love how there's like kanji, Japanese kanji all around, but in the middle of the calendar is a giant in English, December 7th. I didn't think about the best that's in English.

Yeah. And Norm, okay, so we've been recording for how long now? Hour 40. Jesus Christ. We're going to talk just as long as this movie. So I think the plan is we'll end it here for this episode. We'll leave with a cliffhanger. Yeah.

What's going to happen on December 7th? With Japan's giant novelty calendar. Yeah. And you know what? If you don't like it, get used to that boy. Even when I first watched this movie, I never got why Rave was so mad because it was... I get it.

I mean, yes and no, but it's like if everyone thinks you're dead, like, why are you upset that they acted a certain way? Yeah, they thought he was dead. Yeah. But could you leave the love of my life alone for like more than three months? Is that so much to ask? You think it's kind of like a bro code thing? It's like, hey, don't... It's a human code thing.

Don't be messing with my lady. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you don't want to be haunted in the afterlife. So, yeah, I think I think Danny may have screwed up there. I mean, I think it's understandable that he's mad. I think it's also understandable that they hooked up, honestly. Although really, no chemistry between Danny and Evelyn. Zero.

That's why it was so weird when all of a sudden he's set up with like, oh, could I see you sometime? It's like, why? You two have never had an engaging conversation about anything. You two haven't really laughed about anything. there's nothing happening. You don't know anything about her. And yet she's the one you want so badly. Her dad was a pilot.

But she said that to the other one. She didn't say that. No, no, she did say it to him. When they were up in the plane, she was like, my dad used to twirl the plane around. What do you call that? And he's like, oh, a barrel roll? Yeah. Which it's not a bear rule, by the way.

Wow, Kristen, I'm on the edge of my seat. What is going to have? We've got a lot. love triangle. We have a nation about to launch a surprise attack on the Pacific Fleet. What? No, no. Dan Aykroyd thinks that, but the rest of us don't think that's going to happen because it's too shallow and we're not really wanting that to happen. So it's not happening. The line I did love where the admirals were like, yeah, the water's too shallow. They also like, oh, by the way, we also bunched all the planes close together. Yeah. Because we can.

You know what? I didn't include that because that struck me as so stupid. What did that even mean? They basically were like, oh, that helps against sabotage. The only way the Japanese can attack us is with sabotage. Yeah. And so I guess bunching the planes together was like a way to, I don't know. Yeah, you don't want a whole mess of planes.

A bouquet of planes. No one wants it. Yeah. You know, folks, let us know what you think of this. This was different for us, but I think it was really fun. Like, I hated, I hated watching Pearl Harbor, twice for this. In a way, that was my own Pearl Heart.

No, that's rude. Too much. Too much. I'm going to save you here. Thank you. Yeah. When a movie is this bad, it makes you not take the historical event as seriously, I think, in my defense. If you want a good movie about Pearl Harbor, watch the 1970 film, Tora, Tora, Tora.

It is about Pearl Harbor from both sides, the Japanese side and the American side. and it is mostly historically accurate. Were all of the Japanese people outside the whole time? They were in sumo outfits, in bamboo huts, talking about... And they had English on all their calendars, and boy, they had big ones. They did not do small calendars. Oh, my God, this movie. I think this was really fun.

And I do kind of like the idea of when we cover a topic, if there is something we can watch and dissect afterward, maybe it could be a fun episode. But let us know. Kristen, we make a good team. You recap how stupid the movie is and the dialogue, and I point out all of the historical inaccuracies, including stuff about trains, apparently.

Yeah, yeah, we all wanted to know. Norm, should we move on to the slop? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, folks, we just finished a segment of the slop that was extra sloppy. It was very sloppy. There was lots of cheesecake involved. And I asked all the hoes to please participate in trivia next month. We are going to take Norman down.

He defeated us all this month. We must humble him now. This is the Kristen's night guard call to arms. Okay. But, you know, it's not too much war stuff. Make sure you make out with somebody in a parachute hanger. Make sure you also have a big dramatic kiss with a guy who's, popped a champagne cork in his nose, you know, the works.

Yeah, and if you're having a really important meeting at work where it's like sensitive information, you can just do it outside around everybody. Yeah, talk loudly. You want everyone to hear you. Yeah. Well, we hope you enjoy this. Stay tuned next week for part two where we wrap up our critique slash review slash recap of the 2001 classic film Pearl Harbor.

But until then, Kristen, you know what they say about history hoes? We always cite our sources. What sources are we going to cite? That's right. For this episode, I got my information from the epic movie Pearl Harbor. I also checked IMDB because I was like, how much did they spend on this? Too much. But they made a lot of money, so it all worked out.

And then I watched the movie again. Norm, do you have sources you want to cite for this? I do for all the historical inaccuracies, but please check the show notes for more information. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast.

Join the Reddit community, R-slash-old-ty-podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old-Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. She is the beautiful Kristen Pitts-Carruso. I go by... Sorry. Oh, my. Hello, Governor.

You're just like Kate Beck and sell. I know. I know. I go by gaming historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio. Goodbye. Bye.

See ya. See ya.