An Old Timey Podcast - 124: Forced Identity: The Story of David Reimer (Part 1)

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

When he was just seven months old, David Reimer became the victim of a botched circumcision. The accident left him without a penis. His parents, Janet and Ron Reimer, were distraught. They wondered what kind of life David would have. Experts told them that there was little to be done. But then one night, they happened to see an interview with the prominent sexologist Dr. John Money. Dr. Money was charismatic. He was confident. He was credentialed. He had a theory that we are all born gender neutral, and that you could actually choose a child’s gender, provided you made the switch before the child turned two years old. Janet and Ron Reimer were filled with hope. They wondered if, with Dr. Money’s help, they find the solution to their son’s tragic accident. Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The True Story of John/Joan,” by John Colapinto for Rolling Stone An episode of PBS NOVA, “Sex: Unknown”“Intersex,” The Cleveland Clinic“It’s Intersex Awareness Day. Here Are 5 Myths We Need to Shatter,” Amnesty International"John William Money, 84, Sexual Identity Researcher, Dies," by Benedict Carey for The New York Times."Milton Diamond, Sexologist and Advocate for Intersex Babies, Dies at 90" by Clary Risen for The New York Times.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm Normie C. And on this episode, I'll be talking about a terrible accident and an even worse fix. Ooh, I'm intrigued. You should be, you should also be horrified. This is going to be a wild ride. Ooh, Mr. Toad's wild ride? You wish Mr. Toad was involved. He's nowhere near this story. Nothing fun is near this story. Speaking of fun. Have you all considered supporting this small, sexy, independent podcast on Patreon? Because for just $5 a month, you get access to our entire back catalog of bonus episodes.

Kristen, last month we talked about a guy who strapped a bunch of balloons to his lawn chair and flew into the sky. And if you want to hear it, please sign up on patreon.com slash old-timey podcast or YouTube.com slash old-timey podcast. Norm, how many members do we have on our YouTube channel now? 17. Holy shit. Wait, I thought we had 18. Did someone drop out? No.

Oh, no. I don't know. Maybe. Anyway, the KFC bucket is out of the question. We cannot split it. Maybe even the party sub is a little too small now. We might have to order custom catering. Wow.

It's really becoming a party on YouTube. So join us, won't you? And with that, Kristen, take it away. Tell us about a horrible accident and an even worse fix, you said? That's right. Yeah. I mean, I've gotten into situations like that myself. No, you have not.

Oh, okay. I guess I should wait to hear the story. You really should. I'm just thinking about something broken in the house and I'm like, oh, I can fix that. And then things go horribly wrong and I make it worse. Norm, this is not a lighthearted tale. Oh, man. Okay.

Folks, just a heads up, this two-part series is going to be fascinating. It's going to be deeply shocking and very, very upsetting. And if you're anything like me, you'll be thinking about it for hours after the story ends. But I do have to warn you that especially in this episode right here, I'm going to be talking a lot about genitals. And just when you think I'm done talking about genitals, I'm going to talk about genitals some more and then some more. So keep that in mind if you, for example, like to listen to you. listen to an old-timey podcast on full blast while going through the drive-thru. Because let me tell you, I will say penis the second that window pops open and you'll

never be able to show your face at Arby's again. Also, shout out to John Calapinto at Rolling Stone for his 1997 article, The True Story of John slash Joan. The article didn't age perfectly, but it is the basis for this story and he did a hell of a job. Picture it. Winnipeg Canada, 1965. Janet and Ron Reimer felt so lucky. They were young newlyweds. Janet was 18. Ron was 20. And they were just grabbing life by the horns. Because legit, nine months after they got married, Janet gave birth to identical twin boys, David and Brian. I'm surprised you didn't say grab life by the balls, since we're talking about genitals. You know what? We had to cut back on the genital talk somewhere, and I think I was wise to do it there. Fair. Janet had always dreamed of having twins. She and Ron took the boys back to their little one-bedroom apartment and settled into their new life as a family of four.

And things went well for a while, but when the boys were about six months old, Janet became concerned. The boys were having trouble urinating. As it turned out, they had a somewhat common. condition called fymosis. Ah, yes. Very familiar with fimosis. You, why do you seem excited? Folks, I'm going to give you the definition and you're going to be like, why was norm thrilled to hear this? This is where the foreskin becomes so tight that it can't be pulled back. It's very painful and can cause problems, Norm. Why did you have a confetti cannon out for this point? You're just a big fan of tight foreskin? I've been saving this party popper for the right moment. It's a penile condition that I am actually familiar with. So when you said fymosis, I was like, oh my gosh, I know what that is.

Okay. Haven't experienced it myself, though. No one asked. Okay, great. So it's painful and it can definitely cause problems, but it's not some, like, tragic thing. There are treatments for it. And one option is circumcision. And that's what the doctors recommended that Janet and Ron do, circumcise the boys.

So they agreed, okay, we'll have the boys circumcised. The procedure was scheduled for an. early morning in April of 1966. By that point, Ron was working the late shift at a factory. They only had one car, and Ron needed it to get to work, so they dropped the boys off at the hospital the night before surgery. Ron and Janet were not worried at all. And why would they be it's just a freaking circumcision? Hey, it's a big deal. Okay, well, I think I get what you're saying, but can you expand on that? If it's not done correctly, it can cause a lot of complications.

That's true. That's true. And I understand that circumcision is a controversial issue. I think what they were thinking and what I'm thinking is like, it's not some rare procedure that you have to be super worried about. No. I mean, here in the United States, it's very common. It's usually done like right away. And, you know, they're taking them to the hospital, which surely you can trust your kids at the hospital, right?

You would think. but some babies go on the loose. We've got a baby on the loose. Code read. I do know that the older you get, the more complications can arise from a circumcision. Sure. That sounds awful.

Yeah. So they weren't worried. But early the next morning, they got a call from the hospital. The person said there'd been an accident. Oh. But they couldn't share details over the phone. So Janet and Ron were like,

oh my God, they rushed to the hospital. where they discovered that baby Brian was totally fine. He had not been circumcised. But their son, David, was anything but fine. The doctor explained that David's penis had been burned off during the circumcision. What? You know, I did think when I was working on this story, it is going to be a real wild thing to be telling this story to a dude who's very much attached to his penis.

I need that. Let's hear it for the boys. sound. Unfortunately, it's not on the soundboard right now. Let's see. How about this? What the fuck? That's... Yeah, sure. What better sound when you hear someone's penis has been burned off during circumcision? Shout out to all the fellas out there listening. Stay strong, keep listening. We have to know what happens in this story. But getting your penis burned off sounds awful. What the hell happened? Good question. Janet wondered the same thing. She didn't even know how that could happen. She'd assumed the circumcision.

would be performed with a knife. I mean, my, okay, I don't, I'm, uh. Uh, oh, Norm is short-stortgeting. This, this penis talk is really thrown up. Full disclosure, I'm not a doctor. I'm not a medical professional. I don't know anything. Some people might look at me and think, this guy knows what he's talking about.

This guy, this guy is a doctor who strangely has given it up to be a podcaster. Yeah, I assure you, I don't know anything. But I'm guessing they, they, do a little slicey dice, and then they like cauterize the wound. And so maybe they cauterized it a little too much, and that burned it off. Holy shit, Norm, are you secretly a doctor? You might be. I'm not.

As it turned out, the surgeon had opted to circumcise David using an unconventional method, electrocotterization. So that's a way of destroying tissue and stopping bleeding by using heat conduction from a metal probe. Can you tell? I already don't know what I'm talking about. Apparently, it's like a great choice if you want to remove a wart, but it's a really weird choice if you want to remove foreskin. Why did this guy choose this baby of all babies to try something new and unconventional? Well, I don't know that this doctor was choosing something totally new. I mean, I would hope not. I don't see why we would want to reinvent the wheel on some poor baby's penis. That was a weird.

sentence. Oh, man. That is a weird sentence. Imagine being through the drive-through, and that's the sentence that someone hears. Nurse, I'm going to attempt this circumcision while writing a pogo stick. Don't tell the parents. You know what? Sometimes I get bored at work, and I want to spice things up. So whether the doctor messed up or the equipment now functioned, David's penis was, in fact, burned and over the next few days it broke off in pieces. I don't like this. This is the worst story you've ever told. And it's 10 minutes in.

And it's going to get worse. Oh, God. Which I, if I were listening to this, I'd be like, how could this get worse? Don't worry, it does. Janet and Ron were stunned and distraught. This was unbelievable. They wanted to know what, if anything, could be done for their seven-month-old little boy. Was he really going to live the rest of his life without a penis?

They sought out advice from doctors hoping something could be done. But the experts didn't have good news. So it's true that in 1966, falloplasty, which is the surgical creation or reconstruction of a penis, did exist. But the results weren't great. I mean, they were kind of on the ground floor of this thing. I like how you said no, as if you are well versed in this. I've read many brochures. And you look only at the old time he was.

No, so the results weren't great. They were kind of for decoration only. And as far as decorations go, they still had a long way to go before they could make it look like a regular penis. Didn't John Wayne Bobbitt get something like that? Now, this is in the 80s, but... He sure did. And it didn't look right. Norman and I watched a documentary.

John Bobbitt did go on. and do some pornographic films. And if you think I had the self-control to not go seek that on the internet, you're wrong. All right, we watched it. Uh-huh. Yeah, we both did, didn't we? Mm-hmm. It was a fun Friday evening watching porn.

Somehow not ironic at all. Yeah, that guy's a douche. That could be a, well. Future topic? You know what, I need to limit the number of penis stories I tell on this podcast. I think once a year should be it. Don't you think? Once a decade.

Oh, okay. That's how long this podcast is going to go on. You got a ding for me? I said future topic. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. There we go. And you know what?

I found that so quickly that I'm going to do this. I am too smart. I am just smart. She's having fun. So the doctors were like, I mean, yeah, this is something we could do. The results aren't going to be great, though. And at the risk of pointing out the obvious, this wasn't a surgery that they performed on infants. This was a surgery they performed on adults.

Because, like, the kid's going to grow. Exactly. I mean, I don't even know what to say to that, but let's all let our imaginations run wild because good grief. What do you do in this situation? I think until they're fully grown, you don't do anything. Wow.

The doctors told Janet and Ron that the best they could do was maybe one day construct a penis for their son that would probably never become erect, would never quite look right, but that could serve as a conduit for urine. You know, it'd be something for him to pee out of. This is sad. Yeah. Tell me more about that. As a fellow with a penis, I'm just thinking about what that would be like if I was a kid growing up and I had to go through that.

And that's, I don't know, it sounds horrible. Yeah. So no, I don't even know, could he, he couldn't have sexual pleasure as an adult? So that's an interesting point. And I'm going to explore that a little more right here because I want to talk a little bit about how Janet and Ron were dealing with this. Okay. Because they, I mean, they just experienced a ton of anguish, as you would. I think the other factor is, these are twins.

Yeah. And so his twin is totally fine. Right. And he's not. And you have to deal with that as well. I, okay. The mental toll of that. I'm glad you brought that up.

That was something I've been thinking a lot. But there's so much else going on in this story that I was like, we don't even have time to talk about like any twins are going to suffer from that comparison and the competitiveness and all kinds of stuff. And here they're in this weird, horrible situation. By the way, Fimosis, that's what you call it, right? It cleared up with Brian. Yeah, sometimes it just goes away. And I think that is almost like, oh, are you fucking kidding me? So, you know, Janet and Ron are obviously devastated for their little boy.

And I do think it's worth noting they were also both so young when this happened. They'd grown up in a rural community on farms, not that far from one another. other. And it seems like they were pretty traditional people. They'd done the so-called normal thing. They'd gotten married. They'd had babies. And now here they are being told that their infant son, David, would never get to have children, never have sex, probably never get married. They wondered what kind of life he would have. Yeah, it's a fair thing to wonder about. Yeah. I mean, you think about, again, his, his, His twin brother is totally normal.

What is it going to be like when he starts being attracted to, you know, opposite sex or even the same sex and realizing, oh, I can't do anything. Well, and I would push back on that. Like, you know, there's more than one way to have sex. Yeah, but. But also, I realize that even just saying that I'm being kind of like, well, hey, buck up, kid. And it's like, no, this is just awful. It would suck. No, it would.

It would. It would totally suck. There's no way around that. Janet and Ron returned home with their boys, and they fell into a deep depression. They spent a lot of time at home. Months passed. They didn't want to talk about what happened to David, but it was kind of always on their mind. How could it not be? I have a question.

Yeah. He hasn't gotten a surgery yet. How is he using the bathroom as a baby? Well, I mean, I think he still had a urethra. He was still able to urinate. Okay. But, yeah. I mean, it's really sad.

They took him to the Mayo Clinic, too, hoping that there would be some kind of solution. And the doctors at the Mayo Clinic said the exact same thing that the doctors in Winnipeg did, which is, you know, yeah, maybe one day something can be done, but it's not going to be the solution you want. Did they sue this doctor? Oh, they sued the pants off this doctor.

Yeah, that's a whole other thing. But yeah. Yeah. This is what happens with socialized medicine, Kristen. Okay. Those damn Canucks. Oh, man, they're always after our penises. Why did I feel like the lucky charms guy when I said that?

You want the government taking care of your medical problems? Prepare to have your penis removed. I hope you're not too attached to your penis. So Janet and Ron were at home one day watching TV, and a man came on the screen. Dr. John Money gave Janet and Ron something they hadn't had in a long time. Hope. He worked at Johns Hopkins, where he'd established the first ever gender identity clinic. And that night on TV, he spoke about his strongly held conviction that we are all born, gender neutral. He said that gender is about nurture, not nature, and that it's possible, provided that you

intervene before a child gets too old to choose a child's gender for them. Oh. That child could then grow up to be a perfectly well-adjusted, successful adult. Dr. Money was charismatic, confident, and credentialed. Janet and Ron were transfixed by that program. It felt like maybe. Holy crap, they'd found the solution to this terrible accident. They'd spent so much time with doctors who told them essentially, hey, there's nothing we can do for your child.

But there on TV was a doctor, a celebrated, distinguished doctor, speaking just so confidently about how easy it is to just switcheroo a child's gender. And yeah, it was unconventional. but they weren't exactly in a conventional situation. And now it seemed like there was something they could do. Something they could do to give David a shot at a normal life. Janet didn't waste time. She wrote a letter to Dr. Money, explaining everything that had happened to David. And pretty soon she got a response.

And holy crap, was it optimistic? Dr. Money told her to bring baby David to Baltimore right away. Oh, and by the way, did you say he had a twin? Are they by any chance identical twins? If so, bring that baby too. Go ahead, bring that baby too. Yeah, yeah. Is Dr. Money seen this as an experiment?

Like, oh, twins. Norman. What? How dare you say that about Dr. John Money? He went to Harvard, okay? You are gross. You are gross for saying this. You seem to eager to see the twin as well.

Who doesn't love a set of twins? I know what? I do. Okay, that's enough. Within days, Janet and Ron and the boys were at Dr. Money's office in Baltimore. He lined out for them in clear terms that as long as they made their decision soon, I'm real soon, they could absolutely no problem raise David as a girl and have him be none the wiser for the rest of his life. He'd be perfectly fine. I don't think that's going to work.

Is that because I titled this, a terrible accident with an even worse solution? Maybe. Or are you just feeling like this feels wrong? I feel like that's a little foreshadowing, you know. But also, I don't think that's something you can force, right? Dr. Money says you can. Oh, we all love Dr. Money because he went to Harvard. But I'm thinking about even transgender people today.

Yeah. Who have feelings of, oh, I'm this other gender. who had feelings like my gender identity differs from the sex I was assigned at birth. Right. Yeah. And maybe because of like family issues or shame or embarrassment, they don't identify as that. But like inside they know. You know what I mean?

So like wouldn't it work this way as well where David's like, well, I know you say I'm a girl, but I don't feel like a girl. So I think it's so interesting you brought that up because what I didn't bring up was that on that TV program that they watched that night, that part about nurture versus nature was pretty small. The main focus of the program was that I believe he'd brought a trans woman with him. He and she were talking about transitioning. And I think it's so interesting that he seemed to understand that a trans person's gender identity was different from the sex. they'd been assigned at birth. And that didn't change, even though society had told them, hey, you are this. They knew inside, but I'm this other thing. Right. Yeah, it's interesting that he had this theory. Well, and, you know, maybe this is part of the research learning process, and he thinks,

oh, well, like, if you can do this when they're super young, they won't know either way. Mm-hmm. That's what he thinks. Yeah, that's what Dr. Money, Harvard graduate thinks. Of course, Janet and Ron would need to bring David in for surgery. They'd have to remove his testicles and fashion a vagina for him. Over the years, there would be more medical care, estrogen to help him grow breasts, another surgery to create a vaginal canal, and of course, he'd need years of psychological help from Dr.

Money to help affirm his identity as a girl. But if they all work together, little baby David would grow up to be a perfectly well-adjusted girl. She was a little hesitant. Janet asked Dr. Money, well, has this ever been done before? And he apparently said, yeah, it's been done with great success. But, you know, if they were going to raise David as a girl, they needed to make that decision super soon. Okay, time is money, people. This is...

Dr. Money, sorry. This feels icky. I don't like this. No, I hate it. I hate it so much. You're going to hate it even more. 20 minutes, 30 minutes for you. It's just terrible.

I mean, I hated when his penis got burned off. And now they're... Now it's somehow going to be worse. And now they're making decisions without his consent. Who would guess that a penis being burned off is like just the start of the horrors? By this point, the twins were 17 months old. Dr. Money warned that the gender identity gate closes at about two years. That's apparently when we all get locked in as...

either male or female. Mm-hmm. I remember that day. We all do. You choose one or the other. You don't get a third option. Right. And once they made that decision,

there'd be no turning back. Dr. Money told them that if they decided to raise David as a girl, they could never tell David the truth. But Janet and Ron needed time to make their decision. So they went back home. They spoke to the boys' pediatrician,

They spoke to their parents. And oh, damn it, everyone had the same opinion. Everyone was like, no, don't do that. Oh, God. Their pediatrician essentially said, look, hey, I know that this is terrible. It's awful what has happened to David. But putting this child through more surgery, raising him as a girl, never telling him the truth, that's too extreme. That's too much.

Yes, it's much easier to say, little David, I'm so sorry. You had a terrible accident when you were a newborn. Yeah. And like... It's awful. It's awful. We're going to have to deal with it. Yeah.

But it seems like you're making things worse by doing this. Janet and Ron's parents felt the same way. Yes, what happened to David was awful, but this did not seem like the best solution. It was tough, though. The people telling them no, weren't nearly as educated as Dr. Money, weren't nearly as confident as Dr. Money. I just have to say as an aside that I really... feel for Janet and Ron in this situation?

Sure. They're both so young. And I do think, depending on how you're raised, I mean, no one hears this and thinks, oh, this is good, this is fine. But I think if you've not had a ton of experience out in the world, then this could sound like a death sentence for your little boy. And so when someone is offering you a solution where everything's fine, it would be so hard to not take that. Right.

They have all these what-ifs in their head. Mm-hmm. And the what-ifs for changing David's gender aren't as extreme as the what-ifs of raising a boy without a penis. Yeah, I think, and I don't know this, but I think that maybe they got caught up in what they viewed as a normal life, a good life. Well, then this is the 60s, too. Yes. It's the 60s, and I think they were definitely afraid that he was doomed by this. And here's this doctor who has this solution to make everything normal.

Also, it feels very of this era to be like, oh, there's a big traumatic thing. Let's not talk about it. Let's pretend it never happened and let's shove it all under the rug. Yeah, we'll lie to you your whole life. Cool. They took a few months to think it over. In that time, Dr. Money wrote them a letter, and he accused them of procrastinating. See, Dr. Money, he has his own agenda here.

What do you think his agenda is? I think this has never been proven, and he wants to do weird scientific experiments on this child. Interesting. Ultimately, Janet and Ron did what they thought was best for their child. Dr. Money had painted an image for them of David growing up and having a successful, normal life as a woman, and they desperately wanted that image to become a reality. So in July of 1967, they took David in for surgery. A surgeon removed his testicles, lowered his urethra, and reshape the skin to resemble labia. Oh, and coincidentally, totally unrelated, I'm sure, at that same appointment, the twins were tested to make sure that they were indeed

identical twins. So they were. They were. Yeah, so doctor Money wants to study the effects of having identical twins and changing one's gender and seeing the results. Norm, this had been done before it done. Snoo's Fest. You ever just get real curious about whether someone's an identical twin? Yeah, all the time. Let's get this tested.

I don't believe you. This is very upsetting. Oh, yeah. That poor baby. Yes. Janet and Ron can't be blamed for trusting Dr. Money. That's just my opinion. By the mid-1960s, he was already a legendary sexologist.

His influence in the field is almost beyond measure. He coined the term sexual orientation. He coined the term gender role. He did not coin the term gender identity, but sometimes we attribute it to him because, you know, why the hell not? He did all the other stuff. Yeah, sure.

By the time Janet and Ron met Dr. Money, he'd already spent more than a decade researching gender and sexuality. And he'd made a name for himself by studying the psychological impact of being born with atypical genitals. Dr. Money had gotten his Ph.D. from Harvard, where he'd written his dissertation on intersexuality. So let's pause for a definition break. Do you know much about what it means to be intersex?

No. That means you have... Don't even say anymore, Nor... With the caution yellow to take. Okay, just go ahead and So when you're intersex, that can mean a lot of things. Maybe your reproductive organs

aren't exactly female or exactly male. For example, maybe you have ovarian tissue and testicular tissue. Maybe your genitals aren't exactly female or exactly male. Maybe your chromosomes aren't exactly female or exactly male.

For example, instead of X, Y, or X, X, X, X, Y. Maybe you have X, X, Y. Maybe your hormones aren't exactly female or exactly male. In other words, you don't fit in the binary, and we have to fit in the binary, because you have to check a box, and there are only two boxes, and don't ask me to add a third one, because I will cry. It's crazy. I was going to say all of that until you stopped. So I knew exactly what intersex men.

Worth noting, being intersex is not terribly uncommon. Estimates put it anywhere from half a percent of the population to nearly 2 percent of the population to nearly 2 percent of the same. the population. But it's hard to get an exact figure because, for example, some people have intersex traits that are noticeable from the moment they're born. Other people might not have noticeable traits until they hit puberty. And some people go their whole ding-dong lives and don't know it because why would you? As for what causes it? It depends. Sometimes it's just biology, baby. Sometimes it happens during fetal development. And other times, we just have no idea. But if you're brain is like my brain. And you can only retain a thimble's worth of information from a podcast.

Please fill your sippy cup with this. The most important thing to know about intersexuality is it is not a problem. It's not something that needs to be corrected. Right. So I'm saying all that, but I'm also going to say, of course, I'm not an expert in these issues. So if you are, please reach out if you feel like I got something wrong there. But the main thing is you might seek some medical care if you want it. Sure. But it's not a problem. At Harvard, Dr. Money had been fascinated by the people he met during his research on intersexuality. He met people who had two ovaries, a uterus and two X chromosomes, and also a penis. He'd been surprised to learn that in some cases where someone with a uterus and ovaries and two X chromosomes had been raised a boy,

that person was fine and happy to be a boy. He met a patient with X, Y, chromosomes, and a very small penis who had been raised as a girl and was happy as a girl. Dr. Money later claimed that in studying intersex people, he'd come to the conclusion that, quote, more than 95% of them had done just fine psychologically, regardless of whether they'd been raised a boy or raised a girl. And if you're thinking, gee, that's a suspiciously high percentage. I'm right there with you, partner. Yeah.

In my personal opinion, Dr. Money was a big, creepy, predatory weirdo who benefited a lot from the fact that he was one of very few people studying this particular subject. And because the field was so new, to be clear, intersexuality was not new, but maybe the field of study was kind of new. And he was able to rise through the ranks very quickly. He didn't have a lot of people challenging him or checking his work, which was good because he hated it when people questioned him. But people needed to question Dr. Money, mostly because so many people were listening to him.

He was an important dude. For example, Dr. Money spent a lot of time, as I said, studying the psychological impact of being. born with atypical genitals. And his research had led him to the very alarming conclusion that maybe being born with atypical genitals was like the worst thing on earth. And that therefore the best thing that could be done for a baby with so-called atypical genitals was to just start chopping. And since it was easier at that time for surgeons to create a vagina than it was to create a penis,

then bing, bang, boom, in most cases, just turn the child's genitals into a vagina, raise him as a girl, never tell him the truth, and hope for the best. Perfect. That's that Harvard education right there. Oh, my God. I think it goes without saying that this is insane, not to mention unethical. Uh, yeah, yeah. Do it when the baby can't say, no.

Thank you. Okay. Thank you for bringing that up. In my mind, and I'm, maybe I'm not alone here, but in my mind, this is essentially cosmetic surgery on the genitals of infants, which is so disgusting on so many levels. Okay. You know, ironically, we started this episode about circumcision. Yeah.

That is a controversy of circumcision. Sure, sure. Where, yeah, these babies can't consent to getting circumcised. Yeah. And now you have these online communities of people tugging on their peens trying to grow their foreskin. You know, I have sympathy for that, honestly. Sure. I think, you know, I think equating, I don't know that I would equate this, just because this is so much more extreme.

Of course. I do think, gosh, why would you give any child unnecessary surgery? Yeah, exactly. And I do agree that. Like, okay, if they have fymosis, then, yeah, a medical circumcision would fix that. To me, that's different. If there's a medical reason to have something done, then, of course, you have it. But yeah, this practice of putting these babies through surgeries that are unnecessary,

oftentimes, you know, can't be undone, might have a lasting impact. And then the weird thing of lying to them, you know, kind of flipping a coin, hoping, okay, we're going to treat you like a girl, hope that all works out. It's evil to me. Yeah, you're fucking with somebody's life. Based on what? You know? As we'll see in this episode and next week's episode, this happened to babies all over the world for many decades, largely due to Dr. Money's assertion that it was what was best for the child.

I realize I said that in past tense. I'm sure this is still happening. Really? We'll get more into it in episode two. Okay. Of course, even way back in the day, there were a few. few people in the then small world of sexology that thought that Dr. Money was kind of full of shit. And one of those people was a guy named Milton Diamond. Dr. Diamond was a biologist.

And he definitely agreed that, yeah, of course we're influenced by our upbringing. But he thought that what Dr. Money was saying was just way too simplistic. Dr. Diamond criticized Dr. Money's theory that all children under the age of two have malleable gender identities. He pointed out that Dr. Money had no real data to support what he was saying. He pointed out that Dr. Money only had evidence of this working on intersex patients, which again, we're calling bullshit on that, but not now because there's no time. He also pointed out that Dr. Money didn't have any evidence of this theory working on a child whose sex characteristics fit typical medical norms. That critique really pissed off Dr. Money. But what

super, super pissed him off, was the nerve. The absolute gall of this Dr. Diamond twerp, this guy was getting his Ph.D. from the University of Kansas, of all places. Why don't you go back to sucking on a corn cob, you dumb hick? Also, he was probably upset that a guy with the last name of Diamond was insulting a doctor with the last name of Money. You know, it is the battle of the cool last names, isn't it?

But I think what really made Dr. Money mad was because Dr. Diamond was making such a good point. His theory was just a theory. But then, oh, glory, glory, hallelujah. Dr. Diamond could just go shit in a hat because not long after he rudely pointed out that Dr. Money's theory hadn't been tested on so-called normal children,

holy shit, in-walk Janet and Ron with their identical twin boys. Yep, told you. I knew it. There was little David. Standard issue boy. And now, post-surgery, he was about to be raised as a girl. His twin brother would continue to be raised as a boy. What a perfect little experiment. Back in Winnipeg, Janet and Ron were committed to the bit.

Back to Winnipeg. Sorry, that's Simpsons, Jay. It is? Yeah. Oh, Lord. We can never escape the Simpsons on this show. So Janet and Ron were committed to the bit. David was a girl now.

They gave him a new name. And on a slight side note, David is obviously not trans, but as we'll see, he's going to struggle a lot with his own identity and the expectations of other people. And for that reason, I'm calling an audible, which is wild because it's a sports term, but I know what it means. It means I'm making a decision on the fly, and I'm going to choose to follow the current guidance for how we tell stories about trans people. The guidance being that out of respect, you don't use the pronouns that a person rejected. you don't use the name that they rejected. Frankly, I just think it'd be fucked up to call David anything other than David.

Okay. This was a horrible thing he was put through, and let's not pretend that he was ever anything other than a dude. Right. David didn't sign the forms at the hospital for Dr. Money? No, he sure didn't. I'm going to refer to David as David

and use he-him pronouns throughout the story, but just know that as soon as he got that surgery, his parents and literally everyone around him began addressing him as though he was a girl. And of course his parents, Janet and Ron, did this with a lot of optimism. They thought they were doing what was best for their child. You know, they did it all right.

They got him new toys, girl toys, of course. Janet sewed some frilly dresses for him to wear. The first time she put him in one, he started ripping at it, trying to get it off his body. And Janet panicked because, Holy crap, did he somehow know he wasn't really a girl? Was that why he was doing this? Somehow, he really seemed to know from like the earliest age.

For holidays and birthdays, Janet and Ron were always so careful to get girl toys for David and boy toys for Brian. But David never wanted to play with the stuff for girls. He just wanted to play with Brian's toys. And that was a real problem because you know who else wanted to play with Brian's toys? Brian. Yeah. And he was like, what the hell? How old was David when he had the surgery?

Oh, gosh. Almost two years, right? Because, you know, that very real gender identity gate was a closing. Right. And we all remember when we hit two years of age, our brain turns into a character select screen from a video game. And it says, choose your gender. And you have to select one. I remember that day perfectly.

We all do. We all do. It's not something that's made up. I mean, you have to think about all the. subconscious things happening during those early years. Yeah. And what David was playing with, what he was dressed like. And I feel like the baby, again, not a doctor, not a medical professional, but the baby

acquires a taste for those things, I guess. And so to, yeah, put them in, you know, a girl's clothing and give them girls' toys, it doesn't surprise me is all I'm saying. See, and I, it's funny, I, I don't. don't even necessarily know about, you know, developing a taste for something when you're that young. I really think that maybe our gender identity were just born a certain way. And that can even include, like, not really having a gender identity. I think you can be born that way, too. I think you can be born all kinds of ways. And it's not a problem until society freaking makes it a

problem for you. And that's, okay, I've been thinking about this a lot. I've been thinking about, like, when did I first feel like I identified as a girl? And man, I feel like it was young for me. I adore being a girl. What is that from? That little jingle. I enjoy being a girl. I mean, do you feel that way, or did you not really think about being a boy and all that stuff?

Yeah, I don't know if I really thought about it. Oh, my God. I mean, I liked all the typical boys. stuff. I loved high heels, makeup. I would sneak into my mom's bathroom, steal her makeup. She never had a great selection, by the way. That's a criticism I've made of her to this day. She just is not into it like I am. And yeah, all I wanted to do was be an adult woman with a gold bikini. Okay, yeah, folks, I was not going to tell this story. But apparently, I was too young to remember this. apparently when I was very, very little, I told my mom that when I grew up, I wanted to dance

on tables in a gold bikini for men. And she cried. And I told Kristen the other day, it's not too late. You can fulfill that dream. I said, I feel like it is too late. And I want to support Kristen with her dreams. Thank you, Norman. When the twins got old enough to go to school, the divide between who David was expected

to be, and who he actually was, not even wider. As early as kindergarten, the kids at school picked up on it. The boys didn't accept him, and neither did the girls. He was different in a way that people could absolutely put their finger on. He was supposed to be a girl, but he didn't act like one, and there was something else about him, something that concerned the teachers. It was his attitude, his demeanor. He was so negative, like angry at the world for no apparent reason. Mm-hmm. Janet and Ron worried about David.

Dr. Money had been so certain that this would work, but it really wasn't quite working. But wow, did they want it to work? I mean, you talk about sunk-cost fallacy. Once you've gone down this road. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. It would be so hard to admit defeat. Square peg in a round hole.

Yeah, no kidding. Janet had agreed to send updates to Dr. Money, and she did, but she tended to sugarcoat things. David was not feminine, but when he wanted to please his mom and dad, and all kids do, he did sometimes do feminine things, like play with his dolls or Janet clung to those moments. She wrote about them to Dr. Money. She also clung to the idea that there's more than one way to be a little girl.

So yeah, some girls love frilly dresses and nail polish, but a lot of little girls are tomboys. And maybe David was a tomboy. Maybe he's actually a boy. No, no, no, no. We've ruled that out. We did this before the gender identity gate closed, Norman. But something wasn't right. And David, even as a young child, knew that it wasn't right.

So did his twin brother. As part of their agreement, David and Brian had to visit Dr. Money once a year for counseling, and they hated those visits. When they were just six years old, they said that Dr. Money began asking them about their sexual thoughts. Six? Yeah. Good Lord. Dr. Money showed them nude photos of adults and children. What?

He showed them photos of adults having sex. When they're six. And older. Dr. Money believed that pornography was a good tool for a child's sexual education, and that looking at porn could reinforce a person's gender identity. In time, Dr. Money began demanding that the twins take off their clothing. He demanded that they examine each other's genitals. Do we have a creepo alarm or something?

What the fuck? Yeah, what the hell is wrong with this guy? Oh, boy. I have had my tinfoil hat on about this for a while, because it's interesting in some circles when you read about him, it's very sanitized, I think. Like his Wikipedia page, I haven't been on in a while, but like it's really pretty sanitized, I think.

But when you do deeper reading on him, he has been quoted in some places as being sort of pro pedophilia. I am disgusted, disgusted by this man. And I'm not even going into some of the worst things he had them do, only because the reporter who wrote the Rolling Stone article later wrote a book about this. And he went into more detail in it there. And I didn't read the book. But from what I've heard, he had the boys get into positions with one another. I mean, it's just disgusting.

It's disgusting. Sometimes they had to do this in front of just Dr. Money. Other times a handful of John Hopkins colleagues joined. Dr. Money believed that all young primates, including humans, explore their own and each other's genitals, and that, quote, the only thing wrong about these activities is not to enjoy them. What? He believed that all of this was critical to how a child develops their understanding of whether they are a boy or a girl, that seeing those images, that interacting with one another in that way, would reinforce for David that he was a girl.

but it didn't. It traumatized him. It traumatized Brian too, of course. It disturbed them. It scared them. Dr. Money was so soft-spoken and calm when their parents were around. But when he was one-on-one with them, and they defied him, he got incredibly angry. Later in life, the boys recalled one visit where Dr. Money told David to take off his clothes. And David said no. And Dr. Money screamed at him. Take your clothes off now. And David did as he was told. Trembling. Gross.

It's disgusting. It is terrible. And it's so disgusting to me that this was being done under the guise of, oh, let me help these children. Nasty. Sorry. It is nasty. It is. It's nasty.

All of this was terrible. Not just the visits themselves, but the mystery of those visits. because why did they have to go to Baltimore to visit that awful doctor every year? No one else at school had to do that. David and Brian never got an answer that made any sense. The only thing that would make sense was the truth. And no one, not the doctors, not their parents, not anyone was going to tell them that. So in that sense, both of them grew up knowing that something was wrong

and that they couldn't trust any of the adults in their lives to be honest with them. And I'm just thinking about that experience and talking about it with their friends or peer group. Because, yeah, when your kids, you talk to your friends, they're like, oh, yeah, we're going to Baltimore to talk to this doctor and it makes us take off or clothes or whatever. It's like, you know, they learn through talking with their friends that that's not normal. They might have even felt too ashamed to even talk about it with their friends at all. Maybe just knowing that they were going on these trips was enough. Yeah. The impact that this experiment had on them, but particularly on David, is impossible to calculate.

It impacted every aspect of his life. Testing showed that he was an intelligent kid, but for some reason, he struggled a lot in school. It's a real mystery. Yeah. In fact, he struggled enough that the school administrators wanted David to repeat kindergarten. But Dr. Money intervened, and David advanced to the first grade. It was really important that David do well, and he become a successful girl, you know? Mm-hmm.

That same year, 1972, when the twins were six years old, Dr. Money began shouting their success story from the rooftops. He presented it at a meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. He published a book titled Man and Woman, Boy and Girl, that talked about the case. Time magazine ran a story on it. Dr. Money gave the twins pseudonyms, and in time the case was written about in textbooks. It wasn't talked about a ton in the general public, but medical and scientific communities all over the globe were fascinated by the case. here was proof that gender was malleable, that were all born blank slates, and that you really can choose a baby's gender identity. The case became a major reason why, in the 1970s, it became standard practice for doctors to surgically alter the genitals of intersex infants.

Meanwhile, David, Dr. Money's so-called success story, continued to struggle. And his struggles were now a threat to everything. that Dr. Money had built. Just two years after Dr. Money began publishing the story, he pushed David at eight years old to have another surgery. It was time now for David to have a vaginal canal. But David didn't want that. He didn't want to have another surgery. No. Dr. Money showed him pictures of vaginas. He pointed out how David's vagina differed from the other normal vaginas, and didn't David want to be a normal girl? David didn't didn't. He knew inside that he was a boy. He didn't know the extent to which he had been deceived and

violated, but he knew that when he pictured himself as an adult, he always saw a man. The following year, during another session with Dr. Money, Dr. Money asked David, who he'd like to be with romantically, a boy or a girl? And David said, a girl, which, of course, could have been taken as proof that David had been born a cisgender straight dude. Right. But that obviously was not the case, right? Mm-hmm. It couldn't be.

So Dr. Money was like, wow, you're a lesbian. Yeah, he informed Janet and Ron that David was a lesbian. Incredible. The next year, when the twins were 10 years old, Dr. Money published another report. There was no mention of David's trouble in school, no mention of the constant bullying or social isolation. Certainly no mention of him being a lesbian. Instead, it was another glowing report of how David was being raised as a girl, and he was the most feminine thing you ever did see. Everything was kittens and rainbows.

Then Dr. Money published a book titled Sexual Signatures on Being a Man or a Woman. He co-wrote it with a journalist, with the intent of getting an audience that went beyond the eggheads. In it, he wrote about David, again using a pseudonym, and said that David was just great and was proof that you can force a gender identity on any infant, no problem because David was the girliest girl you ever did see. Except the reality was that David was miserable. He was incredibly lonely. He had no friends. He was very aggressive and so masculine. Until that point, the only therapy he'd ever gotten was from Dr. Money. But now his teachers at school were so concerned about him that they'd referred him to a psychiatrist. And that psychiatrist had their work cut out for them. They were informed of David's true

story. And after consulting with Dr. Money, they decided that the best course of action would be to continue the charade and essentially help David become a young woman. So they're just going to gaslight the fuck out of David. Yeah. Cool. David was 11 years old. And he told the psychiatrist, quote, I'm just a boy with long hair in girls' clothes. He told her he didn't want to get surgery on his genitals. He didn't want to see Dr. Money. ever again. The psychiatrist pushed back. David was a girl. He should get the surgery. But the funny thing is that psychiatrist wasn't totally unfeeling. She kept seeing David and she got more and more concerned about him. This child was having such a tough time and he knew that he was a boy.

Even if everyone told him he wasn't, he knew deep down. The psychiatrist reached out to Dr. Money expressing concerns about David. And Dr. Money was like, yeah, you know, his really really, problem is that he needs to get that surgery. He also needs to get on hormone therapy, you know, to convince himself that he really is as a girl. And you know what you should work on with him? He has this bizarre, just fanatical fear of hospitals. It's really weird. He hates doctors. Don't know why, but could you fix that? We're all trying to find the guy who did this. It's the Tim Robinson and the hot dog meme.

Good Lord. David refused to get that surgery. He was so stubborn, but so was Dr. Money. When David turned 12, Dr. Money insisted that he start taking estrogen. It would help feminize his body. But David refused. But then one day his dad, Ron, came to him with a bottle of pills and told David that he needed to start taking them.

David asked why. And Ron said, it's to make you wear a bra. And David just lost it. He said, I don't want to wear a bra. But David did end up taking those pills, at least sometimes. He was just a kid. And every adult in his life was telling him he had to take them. Yeah.

He couldn't get away with doing what was actually right for his own body. Meanwhile, Dr. Money kept writing about the twins and always in glowing terms. There was the perfect feminine girl, the perfect masculine boy. But as David neared his 13th birthday, he became more assertive. more sure of what he did not want to do. He told his mother, if you force me to see Dr. Money again, I will kill myself.

And Janet relented. But things didn't really change. By the time he was 14, David was being bullied so badly that he refused to go to school. He had his local therapist and he had a local endocrinologist who'd always stuck to Dr. Money's advice.

But now, after years of treating him, they came to see, and came to accept that Dr. Money did not know what was best for David. During one appointment with the endocrinologist, the doctor was trying to get David to submit to a breast exam. But David refused. And the doctor was exasperated. And he goes, do you want to be a girl or not?

And David said, no! No, I don't. Thank you for finally asking me. The doctor walked out of the room and came back a few minutes later and said, Okay, you can get dressed and go home. David didn't know it then, but the tides had finally started to turn. A semi-retired psychiatrist had recently taken on his case. And it hadn't taken long for her to decide that what was best for David wasn't to continue on the path that Dr. Money had created for him.

Instead, she was certain that it was time for everyone to drop the bullshit and tell David the truth. Mm-hmm. In next week's episode, David learns his true history. He makes changes, and he goes public. Yes. Go David. Bring down Dr. Money. Yeah, Dr. Diamond's going to come out in full force next episode.

We all love Dr. Diamond, KU Grad, spanking Dr. Money. We love to see it. Well, Kristen, you warned us this is a terrible story. I can't believe this happened. Yeah, to a child. To a child. that could not make decisions for themselves. Well, and even, you know, some of these other doctors, knowing his history and still going along with Dr. Money, I get that, I get that Dr. Money is more powerful, more credentialed, blah, blah, blah.

But I think it's interesting that the person who finally was like, this needs to stop, was a psychiatrist who was semi-retired. to me that says, okay, this is someone who's old. This is someone who knows their stuff, who is unimpressed, who's seen a lot, and they're actually thinking about what is best for this child. Right. Yeah, it's upsetting story. I hope there's a happy ending somewhat. Tune in next week, form.

Okay. Very good, Kristen. Should we move on to our pig butter investor exclusive segment called The Slop? We should. For just $10 a month, you too can listen to the slop, where we rant and rave about anything and everything. And this week, what are we talking about, Kristen?

We haven't really talked about what we want to talk about. We could talk about our recent trip to Miami. Yes, we went on a little trip to Miami, Florida. Everyone, if you know this man, you know that he is a huge Miami Dolphins fan. He's living in Kansas City. He could have chose the winning team, but he is a loyal ho. That's right. Yeah, let's talk about the Miami trip.

Yeah. We just wrapped up talking about our trip to Miami, Florida, where we saw a Dolphins game and we went to the World Erotic Art Museum. So if you want to hear the details of that, please sign up at our $10 tier, the pig butter investor tier, patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Kristen, excellent job on part one. This poor child, I hope things look up in part two. Well, we'll see.

Okay. Well, let's wrap this up, Kristen. You know what they say about history hosts? We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from John Colapinto's Rolling Stone article, The True Story of John slash Joan. An episode of PBS Nova titled Sex Unknown,

Plus Amnesty International, the Cleveland Clinic, and the New York Times, and more. Check the show notes for a full list of our sources. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, R-slash-old-timey podcast.

Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow. Follow us individually on Instagram. I'm at Kristen Pitts-Keruso, and he's at Gaming Historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio. Bye. See ya. Oh, hang on, hang on.

Bye. Bye. See ya.