An Old Timey Podcast - 19: Before Mount Rushmore, There Was Stone Mountain (Part 2)

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

Before he set his sights on Mount Rushmore, sculptor Gutzon Borglum had a vision for a massive monument to the Confederacy. He figured that Stone Mountain, located just outside of Atlanta, would be the perfect spot for his magnum opus. The United Daughters of the Confederacy agreed. So did their BFFs, the KKK. For years, the project seemed to be going well. It ended in disaster.Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Kristin pulled from: The book, “The Carving of Mount Rushmore,” by Rex Alan Smith The documentary, “Mount Rushmore”“The Sordid History of Mount Rushmore,” by Matthew Shaer for Smithsonian Magazine“The Carving of Stone Mountain,” PBS.org “Biography: Gutzon Borglum,” PBS.org“Stone Mountain: A Monumental Dilemma” by Debra McKinney for the SPLC“The heartbreaking, controversial history of Mount Rushmore,” by Amy McKeever for National GeographicThe documentary, “Monument: The Untold Story of Stone Mountain,” from the Atlanta History CenterAre you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be, Normie C. Wow, you're confident today. And on this episode, I'll be talking about the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial. Ooh. Wow, wow, wow. Do you know where my little best there ever was phrases from? No. Yeah. I stole that from Brett the hitman Hart, one of my favorite wrestlers when I was a kid.

Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, no, that any sports reference is going to pass me on by real fast. Yeah, if you think that came from me, absolutely not. I thought you were trying on a new personality, a new confident boy. No. Stone Mountain. Yeah.

Okay. When you mentioned it last week, I looked it up. And I didn't realize it doesn't even. really look like a mountain. It's just like a giant stone. No wonder they call it stone mountain. It's like a granite dome. I think it looks kind of like a big jelly bean. We had some jelly beans the other day. A big problematic jelly bean. Well, you say we. You mean me. Everyone, I'm going through some hormone changes, okay? And part of my fun hormone changes are that once a month, I get a really next level craving for pink jelly beans.

Pink jelly belly jelly beans. Yeah. And if I don't have an entire package to myself, I go ape shit. Yeah, when I brought those home from the grocery store, I thought you were going to make love to me right then and then. I had to eat the jelly beans first. Yeah, I had to eat the jelly beans first. Norm, do you have a plug that you'd like to do, sir, before we get to this very problematic jelly bean? I have some really good news.

your appearance on who wants to be a patron of an old-timey podcast. It was incredible and it was very successful. We have secured 10,000 new sign-ups on our Patreon. I think you're completely lying to me because, you know, I can see the Patreon as well. Well, just like the presidential debate on CNN, we'll fact-check this later. Oh, okay, good, good, good, okay. So, yes, it was a very successful plug on my part. people are saying it's the best Patreon plug they've ever heard.

Okay. But I'm not satisfied. Uh-huh. Because I admit, I'm still a little jealous that you were able to get Dolly Parton. Yeah. Adolf Hitler. Well, he came to me. Okay.

I didn't seek him out. But still, they were guests for your Patreon plugs. That's true. That's true. So how could I want up you with a guest of my own? You probably can't. I decided to think big. And wouldn't you know it?

I was able to snag a very special person to talk to about our Patreon. Kristen, I grew up watching this woman on TV while eating shake and bake pork chops for dinner. I'm so excited to tell her all about our podcast. Please welcome via the World Wide Web, the Honorable Judge Judy. Oh my God.

Hello. What? Hello. Oh, hey, Judge Judy. Hey, sorry, we cut out there for a little bit. Kristen was just really excited to meet you. I'm kind of freaking out. Thank you so much for coming on to our podcast.

Who are you? Okay, well, I'm Normie C. I'm Kristen. Am I playing along with this as well? We have her live via the World Wide Web. I'm sorry, Judge Judy. Please don't get mad. Your Honor, we host a history comedy show called an old-timey podcast.

And Judy, did you know we are independently produced? There's no podcasting studio or network or giant. You're just calling her Judy? Judge Judy. Your Honor. Your Honor. Uh-huh. There's no podcasting studio or network or giant corporation behind this show. It's just me and Kristen. Where did the 27-inch color TV come from? Oh, well, I've always had that, Your Honor. It's for playing my retro video games, right, Kristen?

Yes, it is. Yeah, we would never accept gifts or bribes on this show. Why? Well, because the real support behind the show. stupid. The real support. Hey, I'm trying to talk to Judge Judy here. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

The real support behind the show is our lovely supporters on Patreon. And Judy, let me tell you about some of these perks. At the $5 level, patrons get a monthly bonus episode of an old-timey podcast with a full video version, the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristen's old podcast. Let's go to court. You might really be into that one, Judge Judy. and you get access to our awesome Discord chat room. What? Yeah, I know, I know.

I know. For real. It's a really awesome deal, but wait until you hear about the $7 level, Your Honor, because you get everything in the previous tier. Plus, you get a signed thank you card and stickers, and access to a monthly YouTube watch party. This month we are watching our favorite PSAs. There are a ton of fun, but, Your Honor, don't take my word for it.

You can watch. and judge for yourself. Oh, that was cute. Mm-hmm. Why do you think that that's funny? Oh. You fool. Oh, my God.

I'm really sorry. Judge Judy. You're right. No, I'm not funny. But you know, it is funny. How amazing of a deal the $10 tier is on Patreon. We are practically losing money on this, Kristen. As a pig butter investor, patrons get everything on the previous tiers,

plus early ad-free episodes of an old-timey podcast with full. video versions of every episode and 10% off all of our merchandise? You know that I am having difficulty believing everything that you're telling me. Some things I believe. Some things I don't. Well, Your Honor, I swear, I swear. I guess we're an independent podcast, so becoming a patron is the best way to support this show. And it allows us to bring on lovely guests like yourself, Your Honor.

And, you know, running a show like this is not easy. It's very hard. That's what she said. Oh, Judge Judy, you have a great sense of humor. I really think this podcast is right up your alley. You're damn right. Yeah. Well, thank you again for joining us, and we hope to have you back on the show real soon.

Okay, bye, Judge Judy. Bye, Judge Judy. Thank you so much. Bye. Wow, I'm so honored. That was amazing. I'm so honored that Judge Judy herself came onto the show. Could the soundboard just always be Judge Judy?

I mean, I want the 27-inch TV. I want it on there all the time, and that buy. Where did the 27-inch color TV come from? It's a color TV. I love that, too. And then you want this? Bye. Yeah.

Well, I don't know what you're talking about because that was her talking. Right. So you. It was a very real phone call. Yeah, it was via Skype. We're using Skype on this show. Sure. We're sponsored by Skype. Also AOL and Crystal Light. So we're very modern, cool show. Yeah, we're actually sponsored by Net Zero. You can get three months for 1999.

We'll send you a disc in the mail. All right, Normie. You know how hard it was to get Judge Judy on this show? Oh, what'd you have to do, Norm? Unspeakable things. You don't want to talk about it? We'll save it for the watch party, YouTube watch party. I'll do a tell-all. Okay. I have to make my own PSA. Sounds like maybe you had to steal a 27-inch color TV.

I've always had that. I do not steal it. All right, Kristen. Do you have any mistakes of shame? I mean, oh, well, you know what? I think I do have a mistake of shame, and it's an embarrassing one. Mistakes of shame! That was powerful.

Yeah, yeah, everyone. In last week's episode, I pulled a real Christian. which is that I started the episode referring to the sculptor who designed Mount Rushmore as Gootson. And then later in the episode, I realized I was pronouncing it incorrectly. So I just corrected myself to Gutson, which sounds like the wrong name to me if I were choosing. But that's not what I'm here today. I'm here to apologize. I'm going to say his name correctly every time in this script.

Oh, very good. Thank you. May I add another mistake of shame? Damn it. Okay. We talked about John Quincy Adams Ward. Yes. And we said, oh, he must be related to John Quincy Adams. He's not related to him in any way. He was just named after John Quincy Adams.

Hats off to that man's parents. That is thinking one step ahead. Mm-hmm. Yeah, if you want nepo baby perks, but you don't have the stuff yourself, just make your child sound like a nepo baby. Yeah. That's why our dogs are named Abraham Lincoln and Calvin Coolidge. Oh.

I don't know why you named one of our dogs Calvin Coolidge. Not a very exciting president. Abraham Lincoln, I approve. That would be kind of mean to do that. Yeah. Meet our dog Franklin Pierce. Our most mentally disturbed president. All right.

Don't forget about Millard Fillmore or whatever. John Quincy Adams Ward. Very interesting guy. I hope we talk more about him in this episode. We will not because this is all about Stone Mountains, sir. And it is fascinating. And it's kind of a long script. So frankly, I think we better get to step in.

Okay. This has been mistakes of shit. Oh, sent chills down my spine. Yeah, you're ready to get chills again? I got to do the previously on. Previously, on an old-timey podcast. We asked ourselves hard questions about Mount Rushmore. Questions like, who did this and why?

And what gave them the right? And we started answering those questions by delving into the life of Gutson Borglum, the man who designed Mount Rushmore. We learned about his unusual childhood, his early career as an artist and his next level need to compete with his talented younger brother. By the time Gutson reached middle age, he was a successful sculptor. He was wealthy and kind of famous. But Gutson's ego wouldn't let him stop there.

He wanted more, more fame, more praise. He wanted to secure his place in the history books. And he figured that the best way to accomplish his dream was to create a sculpture that wasn't just great art. No, ew, disgusting. He wanted to create art that was shocking in size, something that would stand the test of time. So, in 1915, when the United Daughters of the Confederacy asked him to sculpt a puny little bust of Robert E. Lee to sit at Top Stone Mountain, Gutson instead came up with an idea to make a sculpture out of Stone Mountain. It would be 1,500 feet wide, 400 feet tall.

It would feature Confederate soldiers, nearly a thousand of them. The cavalry, the artillery, all rushing together toward a spot 200 feet in the air. At the peak, Gutson would sculpt Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, Stonewall Jackson, and also some other dudes, TBD. The owner of Stone Mountain, a KKK member named Sam Venable, was thrilled. So were the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Yay! But bless their hearts. They had no idea what they were getting into.

In this episode, Guts and Borglum's attempt to create the eighth wonder of the world almost happens. But it ends in disaster. Wawt, won. Are you excited? Here we go. I'm about to bust.

I am pumped. too, Hank Hill. Thank you. All right. Picture it. It's 1915. World War I rages on. Wow, spoilers. All right. Nobody knew about that. Gutson Borglum was giddy. He'd been waiting for an opportunity to make the impossible possible. And he'd found it at Stone Mountain, just 15 miles outside of Atlanta. It was there that he'd create his magnum opus, a monument unlike any that the world had ever seen. It would require ingenuity, innovation, and serious artistic skill. Hmm. But there were so many questions that needed to be answered. Like, how would they get workers that high up in the air? And how would they ensure that the workers removed just the

right amount of stone, but not too much of the stone? Yeah, and he's paying for this. Oh, hey, that's a rude question for later. Also, how would they ensure that the finished monument actually looked good? And yeah, also the money, but we're not shut up about the money, okay? It's fine. This seems like the worst possible job for me. What do you mean? Because you're way up high. Oh, well, yeah. And you're creating a monument, so you have to be very precise and perfect with removing stone. Yeah, but it's the confederacy. So, yeah, I mean, who gets a shit? Let's ignore the subject matter. Oh, wow. Okay. For now. A lot of historians did.

Fine. Yeah. And if you remove too much stone, you can't put it back. I'm going to need the super glue. Bring in the gorilla glue, boys. Yeah. Oh, and you're up high? Yeah.

Not for Normy C. Let me tell you. Well, I've got great news for you, Norm. Hmm? You're a little outside the time frame for this project. I'm just saying, let's say I went back in time. You know, and I. It, like, landed in 1915, and they're like, hey, Normie C, get up on the rafters.

You're sculpting Jefferson Davis's crotch or whatever. And you'd be like, y'-h-h-h-h-h-haws. Yeah. You may have noticed that those questions I mentioned, those were all how questions. How do we do it? And over the course of this episode, we'll answer all the hows. But before we get there, we need to do the uncomfortable things. thing. What's that? Well, it's something that some historians have wrestled with. Others have tried to

side step a bit. I'm talking about the W questions of the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial. Like, who? Who wanted this thing? Why did they feel it was necessary? And what does it mean that Gutson Borglum didn't just sign up for the job? He expanded its scope. He championed it. He made it happen almost. Getson Borglam! The man who carved a bust of Abraham Lincoln that to this day sits in the rotunda of the Capitol,

the man who would go on to design Mount Rushmore, aka the Shrine to Democracy, the man who named his own son after Abraham Lincoln took this job, a job where he'd rub elbows with the KKK, a job where if he accomplished

what he set out to do, would honor and glorify, the group that fought to defend slavery with the biggest and best monument the world had ever seen. What does that say about him? Question mark, question mark, question mark. Oh, I know the answer. What, it was another time? No, he just, the dude wanted to be famous and he didn't really care what it was about.

It was all about him. All right, interesting take. Let's keep going, shall we? Oh, no. When you say it like that, that means I'm completely wrong. All right, go ahead. I talked in last week's episode about who wanted this monument. It was the United Daughters of the Confederacy.

They wanted a lot of monuments. Oh, and they got them. They were a neo-Confederate, white supremacist group that worked tirelessly to establish a false and damaging narrative about the Civil War, a narrative that the Confederacy hadn't been. a narrative that the Confederacy hadn't been defending slavery. They'd been defending states' rights. And, you know, slavery had been pretty fine, okay? Everybody's so just calm down. Hmm.

I never thought of it like that. No, Norm, don't fall for it. The United Daughters of the Confederacy used a lot of tactics to spread their message. But monuments played an especially important role. So it's kind of funny because in the years following the Civil War, these gals put their Confederate monuments like in cemeteries, you know, private places, places that were kind of tucked away. And, you know, sounds to me like you're truly honoring your brother or your husband, maybe,

if it's in a cemetery. Sure. But after Reconstruction ended and the federal troops went bye-bye, the United Daughters of the Confederacy, along with some other shitty racist groups got bolder. They put their monuments in front of courthouses in the public square. Because when a monument takes center stage, when you have to pass it in your everyday life,

it sends a powerful and chilling message about who's in control now. And it sends a powerful and chilling message about who never fully lost control. Confederate monuments are art. Weaponized art. Ooh. Ghoulish art. Weaponized art. I haven't heard that term before.

I did not make it up. I will admit that. Sight your sources. Where'd you get it from? A really cool documentary by the Atlanta History Association or something. I'll link it in the show notes. Confederate monuments don't exist for the purpose of honoring Southerners. 40% of Southerners were enslaved during the same.

civil war, Confederate monuments exist for the purpose of honoring the enslaver and the people who fought to defend slavery. And when that monument is really big and really public, that message gets amplified. So, of course, when Gutson Borglum told the United Daughters of the Confederacy about his vision for a massive, unmissable Confederate monument, they were completely on board. They understood what Gutson had been saying all along that great art is one thing, but when that art is huge, when it's larger than life, it's shocking. Well, not only that, but like, it's going to be in a mountain. You're not getting rid of that monument.

No, there's no like, well, let's just put it in a museum or can we put it in storage? No, it's there forever. It is, I mean, it would take some serious dynamite to get rid of that monument. So yeah, I'm sure they were very excited about that idea. In addition to not being easily removed, something of that size, it's the kind of thing where if you look at it, you can't help but feel something. And maybe for some folks, that something is pride. And maybe for others, that something is fear.

And that's exactly what these women were after. but we can't talk about the creation of the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial without also talking about the KKK. Ooh. Okay KKK? Okay, KKK. Here we go. You know, I jokingly, you have two friends. Oh, God, you're the worst.

Kristen has two friends named Kate and Katie. And whenever they hang out, I say to Kristen, oh, you're going to the KKK meeting. Norm has made that joke many times over the years. I have. And it got even worse when Katie's husband, Kyle, started making that joke independently. He'd come down to the living room. The three of us would be together and he'd go, oh, no, it's a KKK meeting. And then I said, oh, no, Norm makes the same joke.

And now you two are just more powerful now that you both make the same joke. Great minds, think alike. Yeah, it's a very unique joke. The United Daughters at the Confederacy love. the KKK. Really? Why? That was sarcastic.

You don't have to answer that question. Oh, okay. I think I know why. I've got a hunch. Well, I think when a guy covers up that much of his body, you can't help but wonder what's going on under that sheet.

Am I right? Mm-hmm. Also white supremacy. Anyhow, in fact, when Helen Plain, the 88-year-old president of the National United Daughters of the Confederacy Court.

Holy moly. So she was She was a million years old. Hang on, 1915. I'm just going to do a little math here. Yeah. So she was like 38 during the Civil War. Yeah, her husband died in the Civil War.

Holy moly. That's right. You said that last episode. Yeah. How about you listen more, okay? Sorry. I've been really distracted because we had Judge Judy on our show. So my mind is just.

a blaze. You're kind of starstruck. I understand. I completely get it. I grew up watching Judge Judy on UPN. When she initially corresponded with Gutson Borglum about the Confederate Memorial for Stone Mountain, she requested that he worked in a group of Klansmen into the memorial. Put the KKK in there too?

Yep. Well, that says a lot. It says everything. Yikes. She told Gutson that in her view, the KKK had, quote, saved us from Negro dominations. Uh-huh. That implies that black people were going to dominate. Yeah, white people in the South were very, very afraid that black people were going to take over.

Well, maybe if they hadn't been such dickholes for a couple hundred years, they wouldn't have had to be so worried. But also it didn't happen. So Helen can shut the fuck up. Well, actually, Kristen. Oh, boy. Slavery taught black people how to work in the fields. Wow. You got to love an unpaid internship the last for your whole life and that of your children.

And you get raped all the time. Anyhow. Fun fact. Yes. Okay. There was a planned monument before the Civil War in the South Carolina Capitol, the Capitol building. Basically, the South wanted to make slavery seem like it was kind of cool and a good thing. And so they had this mural planned of like black people working unchained in a field with happily.

Happily with like a white overseer. Gross. And it was supposed to depict like we are teaching labor skills. It never happened because the Civil War broke out. and they had other things to do. Yeah. But yeah, like that idea had been around, you know, for a long time. Yeah, propaganda.

Mm-hmm. No word on how Gutson responded to her request to put the KKK on the monument. But I mentioned in last week's episode that Sam Venable, the guy who owns Stone Mountain, was a member of the KKK. And I mentioned that after Gutson Borglum signed on to this job and shared his vision for a massive Confederate monument, that the KKK gathered at Top Stone Mountain to celebrate the rebirth of their organization. Right. Because they went away for a little bit. They sure did. Yeah, but then they came back. That day they stood up on that mountain. They opened up a Bible. They burned a 16-foot-tall cross.

They were really excited. The movie, The Birth of a Nation, had just come out, Norm. And it depicted the KKK as the protectors of white womanhood. and it depicted black men as big creepy rapists. Oh, how wonderful. What a blockbuster hit. Yeah. The group that gathered at Top Stone Mountain on Thanksgiving of 1915 was fairly small. There were only 16 of them.

Some of the men had been members of the original KKK. They were the old-timers. The youngest person at that gathering was Sam Venable's nephew. He was just 13 years old. Though they were small in numbers, that group would group. exponentially. And over the course of this project, they'd continue to meet at Stone Mountain. It was their sacred spot.

Stone Mountain wasn't the site of a Civil War battle. It wasn't the site of anything that was significant to the Civil War. There's a giant jelly bean. Yeah. I can't take it seriously. Seriously, I didn't even see like trees on top of that thing. It's a bit rough. Are there trees up there?

I didn't see any. Well, I'm sure there are some. Yeah, I don't know. I was just like blown away. I didn't realize. We'll include a picture of Stone Mountain in the video. And it's just a jelly bean. Yeah, just put the jelly belly mascot.

Stone Mountain was significant to the KKK. It was where they burned crosses. It was where they celebrated. It was where they gathered and it was where they'd been. reborn. And they were thrilled at the idea of getting a massive Confederate monument on their mountain. Oh, the message it would send. Norm, you don't seem happy enough for these boys. They're just so thrilled. Oh, man. I just love people realizing their dreams, Kristen.

Even if it means that their dreams are horrible. Yeah. As Gutson prepared to tackle this project, he got pretty chummy with the Klan. He attended clan meetings. What? Oh, yeah. Oh, boy. Norm, this is where people get a little weird. They want to argue about whether Gutson Borglum was technically a member of the KKK.

Oh, yeah, this argument. Oh, yeah. They do the same thing with Harry Truman. Oh, yeah. Basically anyone who people find important or want to. to like or like rose the ranks in American politics and we hate the idea that they're a KKK member. It's like, well, they were just in there for the business connections. And that's the argument people try to make about Gutson. They had punch and pie that night. Who was he?

Gutson showed up to resist punching pie. Yeah. People want to say that Gutson didn't work on this monument with these people because his values aligned with theirs. No, no, no, it was just that he was a very ambitious artist and they were presenting him with a once in a lifetime opportunity right norm oh no oh god and to those folks i say can't it be both because yes gutson was a very ambitious man he needed to create something completely unorthodox and here was this group that was giving him the green light but at the same time he was racist He was anti-Semitic. He was anti-immigrant. Oh.

Well, certain types of immigrants, anyway. That was popular back then. Still popular. Still popular, I guess. Yeah. And you know how we know that Gutson Borkland was racist and anti-Semitic and anti-immigrant? Why? Because he said he was.

Oh. He once said, quote, I would not trust an Indian offhand nine out of ten, where I would not trust a white man one out of ten. He wrote about his fears that a, quote, mongrel horde was overrunning the, quote, Nordic purity of the American West. Oh, God. Interesting. This is getting worse and worse. So, yeah, Guts and Borglum got started on this monument for white supremacist. And I think he was fine with that because he was also a white supremacist.

Well, it's funny how you mention that like the thing about, oh, he was doing it because he was ambitious, but you are right. Two things can be true. Absolutely. I need to remind myself that a lot. Two things can be true. And, yeah, if he was saying shit like that, then, yeah, he was racist. Yeah. Yeah.

He was a racist with a dream, Norm, a dream that one day he would create the Cheesecake Factory of Monuments. Oh, man, don't besmirch Cheesecake Factory's name. How dare you use Cheesecake Factory's name to describe this monument? I'm sorry. I actually want to go to Cheesecake Factory. Yeah. So. How could you?

What do you mean? How could I? I love Cheesecake Factory on the brain. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for roping them into this. Why couldn't you use some crappy recipe? Do Cracker Barrel or something.

The cracker barrel of monuments. The reason I pick Cheesecake Factory is because it's so freaking over the top for no reason. It's just... It's delicious. Okay, but it's also very over the top. Don't you agree that the building itself is a little much? The interiors are usually very odd in there. I'm sorry to personally offend you.

I didn't realize that you came from Cheesecake Factory money or something. How do you think I got Judge Judy on this show? I'm the heir to the Cheesecake Factory, that would be amazing. Why are we doing this podcast? I don't fucking know. We should be going into the Cheesecake Factory and saying, do you know who I am?

Just eat nothing but cheesecake and sit around and count money. That's all I do. You know, it's funny. By the time 1915 wrapped up, this new Confederate monument didn't actually have much going for it. Oh? Well, all guts and had was a vision. He'd made some speeches and gotten folks pretty pumped up about the idea.

But at this point, he was in like showman mode. He was just charming everybody. Oh, so they're like, so when are you getting started on this thing? You know, it's not really an issue of getting started. It's more of questions like, well, how are you going to pull this off? And he's like, oh, I'm good. Yeah, it's going to happen. It's no big deal.

and, you know, what about the money? Oh, that'll be coming in, no problem. So he's just kind of lying and showboating to get the thing going. In reality, a lot of the early money came out of Gutson's own pocket. He and his wife Mary mortgaged their 500-acre estate in Connecticut. What? Yeah, that's how much this project meant to him. Man.

Gutson spent months drafting designs for the Confederate Memorial. He wasn't even under contract yet. But, you know, he was just certain that it would work out. In the spring of 1916, Gutson moved his family down to Atlanta. It wasn't clear how long it would take to create this monument, but it would definitely take years. And Gutson didn't want to be away from Mary or Little Lincoln. Little Lincoln. What a cute children's program.

Aw. You know what it makes me think of? What? You remember there was a kid show called Little Bill, and it was like Bill Cosby. Oh, my God. Really? As like a kid. Yeah, Little Bill.

Oh. Yikes. Thanks for bringing Bill Cosby up. It was on Nick Jr. As if this episode isn't a downer enough, I'm talking about the KKK. You have to be like, oh, have you thought about Bill Cosby lately? By the way, what's Bill Cosby up to? Him in a while.

No, I don't really keep up with the news. Why do you ask? Not long after they settled in. Georgia, Mary gave birth to a daughter who they named Mary because they want to confuse me. Mary Todd Lincoln? Oh, shit, I didn't even think about that. Maybe. Yeah.

And wouldn't it be cute if they got married later? No, it would not be incest. She's my sister. Okay, that's enough. So Gutson got to work figuring out how the hell they were going to do this thing. Yeah, I'm curious myself. The first big question was, how are we going to get due? high enough in the air to start carving.

Parachutes. It's a very slow and expensive way to do it. On the way down. Get as much done as you can, boys. Norm, I like where you're thinking there. You know, you're thinking outside the box. Okay, no bad ideas in brainstorming. Honestly, this sort of thing was outside of Gutson's wheelhouse.

Yeah, I mean. So he hired an engineer. And the engineer came up with a really good plan. Albert Einstein? No, he did not hire Albert Einstein. The plan included elevators, scaffolds, you know, the works. It was very detailed. Is it scaffolding or scaffolded?

I thought, isn't it scaffolds when it's just like a couple scaffolds? Scaffleding? Well, now I'm very insecure. I thought scaffolding was like when it's like permanent to a building. No. History hosts, help us out here. Please, please. Scaffolding experts, let us know.

Help. Help us, please. We are some knuckleheads tonight. There was just one problem. This plan was really good and also really expensive. It would cost about $200,000 just to establish a system for people to start working on the memorial. Yeah. Adjusted for inflation.

A little more than $6 million. Yeah, just the prep work to get started is insane. Yeah, so Gutson did something that was maybe a little conniving. Okay, maybe not. What did he do? Well, he wrote an article for a magazine, all about how he was going to make the biggest sculpture ever on Stone Mountain, and oh, look, he was going to use this super innovative system to do it.

Oh, the scaffolds, or was it scaffolding? We don't know. The elevators. My God, the elevators! And then after the article was published, he went to the United Daughters of the Confederacy and was like, Hi, could I get 200 grand, please? And they were like, well, we've been fundraising our asses off and we've got all of two grand to give you. Do you know what magazine he wrote for?

I can't remember. I don't know. Damn. Sorry. Better homes and white supremacy. What would it be? Hoods and homes. Oh. I don't know.

So, yeah, adjusted for inflation, these ladies had raised about 60 grand. He was hoping for about 6 mil. Yeah, see, this is why, like, United Daughters of Confederacy would put in, like, a little slab, slab monuments that weren't too big. Still problematic. But, you know, wouldn't cost that much to put in public space. Mm-hmm. This is too big for them. Oh.

interesting prediction norm So Gutson was like Okay cool cool cool no big deal Let's forget all about that system With the elevators and the scaffolds We're going back to the parachutes Let's save money live better And instead

We'll have all the guys working on this monument Sit way up high in the air In swings And each dude will have a little swing Oh my God And he'll be suspended by a cable bowl. Nope.

It'll be fine. It'll be fine, Norm. Scary as hell. No, it's terrifying. I can't even think about it. It's so terrifying. I get nervous on a regular swing, okay? Down at the playground.

You're just always there, a grown man with no kids on the swings. The higher I go, the worse I feel. So they had the swing set figured out. And then they started to build a little shop about halfway up the mountain. but just as they started building the stairs to go up to the little shop, oops, fudge stripes. World War I breaks out. Well, actually, it had already started, but the United States entered World War I is what you meant to say.

Cool, thank you. Anyway, it took them long enough. What were you over there fighting, just waiting for the dough boys? Over there. Over there. So the project stopped. Because all the sculptors had to go fight, huh? It was devastating, Norman. The United Daughters of the Confederacy were beside themselves.

They demanded to speak to the manager, but no manager was there. He was in World War I as well. The KKK was emotional as well. But they hid their tears under their hoods and blew their noses into their hoods because, you know, it was the practical thing to do. Gutson was also gutted. he and Mary and the kids moved back to Stamford dejected. This was supposed to be his magnum opus, and it was over before it had even started.

God damn this war. Damn it all to hell. Norm! A lot of time we talk about the cost of war in terms of human life, sacrifice, loss of innocence. Yeah. But we forget to mention this tragic cost of war, the loss of an amazing idea to make the biggest, douchiest monument the world had ever seen. Don't worry, I'm sure they'll get back to it.

Yeah, so World War I happened, and then it ended, and that's all I care to hear about World War I. Thank you very much, Norm. You know what would have been great. What? If they were like, wow, what a terrible war that was, and what a sacrifice these boys made over there. Instead of making this Confederate monument, why don't we make it a War War I monument? That is because you're forgetting the why. Well, I know.

I'm just saying. And I'm just saying to you, that's a great idea. Yeah, Kansas City has quite a World War I monument. It looks like a giant penis. It does. And we love it here in Kansas City. They blow smoke out of it and it looks like the penis is... It's what?

Releasing itself all over the city. We live in a beautiful city. come visit sometime, won't you? It is a very cool monument in a museum. No, it's not. It's a big dong. It's very, very cool. No, you're only saying that because you have

one. Because I have a dong? Wow, I can relate to this monument so much. You joke, but I bet you, when will they build, like, just it has to be something that doesn't have anything to do with women?

What could it be? What if they real? opened Kmart's, but they were all in the shape of vaginas. I think I would find myself like, I don't know what it is about this place, but I like it here. They reopened Kmart and the entrance looks like a vagina. No, the whole building. The whole building looks like a vagina. If you get the World War I Memorial that looks like a giant dong piercing the sky, then I get a Kmart in the shape of a vagina.

These are the rules. You know what? I'm all for it. Thank you. Deal. Because I miss Kmart. I'd love to shop there again. And if it has to look like a vagina, so be it.

It does have to. It's okay. Anyway, so the war ended. And, you know, people focused on rebuilding their lives after the war. The United Daughters of the Confederacy felt they'd done all they could do to help this project along. Truthfully, they seemed to think that the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial was itself a lost cause. Oh wow, wait a minute.

Yeah. Very good. Hey, yo. Yeah, I'm really curious where they're going to get money from. Yeah? Yeah. Do you have any guesses? The state of Georgia.

Hmm. Interesting guess. I can see you're worried about the fate of this project, Norm. Don't be. I am. I have to know. A new group came to the rescue. Okay, so calm down.

They called themselves. the Stone Mountain Monumental Association. Oh, so they formed this group specifically. Yeah. Yeah, they were going to make this thing happen. They were going to get the money. They were going to lure Gutson Borglum back to Georgia, and they were going to convince him to finish what he barely started.

Okay. And in 1922, they did. Gutson and his family moved back to Georgia, and Gutson, God help him, got excited again. How did they convince them? I don't think it took much convincing. This was like, this was going to be the pinnacle of his career. He'd already done all this work for it.

Yeah, but I didn't know if they're like, here's some money, punching pie, cheesecake factory. There's going to be a cheesecake factory at the base of the mountain. You can go in any time. God, that would sign you up. Imagine. Cheesecake factory. Uh-huh. The interior, in every interior of the cheesecake factory is a Confederate monument.

Do you still eat there? Oh, shit. No, I couldn't. Yeah, I couldn't either. I'd be like, what the hell is this? Why are you coming up with terrible ideas, Norm? I don't know. I just came up with a great one with the Kmart's and the vaginas, and here you come with this one.

That beautiful cheesecake display when you enter, but right above it, a bust of Robert E. Lee. God. Why? Why? This doesn't make sense. So yeah, Getson was going to do it. He was going to create the eighth wonder of the world. Woo-hoo! And this time, everyone was a little less worried about money because someone,

and it's difficult to say who, because a lot of people wanted credit for this idea, but someone suggested that maybe they could convince the federal government to print a special commemorative, Confederate coin, and then they could sell that coin as a fundraiser for the memorial. Did that happen? More on that later. Did that happen? I said more on that later.

Oh, my God. Okay. It would be pretty wild, huh, for the federal government to make commemorative coins for the terrorist group that threatened to tear the United States apart. I mean, man, that would be crazy. Yeah, almost as crazy as Carver. ring a big old jelly bean. Yeah, you're right. For now, Gutson's main focus was on figuring out how logistically he could get started.

Any artist needs to be able to stand back and look at their work as a whole to kind of figure out what to do next. But just how the hell do you do that when your canvas is an entire mountain? Right. Well, Gutson had an unorthodox idea. He figured that if he could just get a... a gigantic projector and wait until nightfall, he could project slides onto the side of the mountain. And once those slides were up there, he could have somebody trace the slides onto the mountainside with a bucket of paint. Then during the day, the workers would know what to chip

away and what to leave behind. I guess that's not a bad idea. It's better than my parachute idea for sure. I would say so. You're right. It wasn't a bad idea. And it wasn't a bad idea. And it wasn't even a wrong idea, but everyone told Gutson that it couldn't be done. They didn't have projectors that were that powerful. And even if they did, the heat from the light would burn the film, it was just impossible what he was asking for. But do you think that stopped him? Yeah, he kept at it. He was certain that what he wanted could be done.

and he used his vast connections to search for someone, anyone who would give him the answer that he wanted to hear. And finally, he spoke with this guy, Edwin Porter. Edwin was a super innovative film pioneer and he was kind of like, huh, okay. And he gave it a shot and it took a lot of work and a lot of imagination. But Edwin created this gigantic lamp thing that could project guts, Hudson slides onto almost an entire acre of the mountainside without burning the slides. Gigantic lamp thing. Fun fact.

Love it. Yeah. This device weighed almost a ton. The projector? Yes. Oh my God. Yeah. But it worked.

Okay. Man, how far technology has come. That's crazy. So here's what they did. They waited for nightfall. Yeah. Turned on the projector. Gutson would stand there drawing on the snow.

slides. And at the same time, the engineer would be dressed in bright white, carrying a bucket of white paint, and he'd be suspended in the air on one of those fun swing things. And Gutson would be on the phone with the dude who was operating the cable. And he'd be like, okay, okay, raise him up so he can paint that part. Okay, now lower him down a bit. Okay, now, to the left, to the left, to the left, to the left. And on and on they went, painting all over the mountainside. This is fucking bonkers. Yes!

I retract my statement of, oh, it should have only taken four years to do Mount Rushmore. Yeah, well, that was ridiculous. Yeah, that's a ton of work. And so weird. So very weird. Yeah.

It was obviously a very slow process, but it was also kind of exciting. They were problem solving. They were innovating. They were drawing faces on mountains. Mm-hmm. And frankly, it got Getson's creative juices afloin. I'm about to bug.

And he was like, you know what? Yeah, okay, we should do this massive monument with the cavalry, the soldiers, yeah, yeah, Robert Ely, et cetera, et cetera. But also, we should do some cave digging so that people can go into a big cave. And in that big cave, we'll have the Hall of Records. it'll be amazing. And a gift shop? I don't know exactly what he wanted in the Hall of Records, but I know what he kind of had planned for Mount Rushmore later.

And I'm guessing this was going to be like a write-up of like, who did this? And, you know, what the purpose, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. You know, it's a little jerk-off cave. A little shrine. A little jerk-off. Come in here to jerk off. And this is where we start to see the relationship between Guts and Borglum

and the Stone Mountain Monumental Association begin to crumble. Oh, crumble. Good sculpting joke there. Thank you. Yeah. It rocks, doesn't it? Oh, Kristen. Your wit is unmatched.

I thought about not making so many jokes, but then I thought, no, I'm going to be bolder. That one was pretty good. Yeah, yeah. It was pretty good. I enjoyed that one. Uh-huh. Yeah. What Gutson didn't know was the fact that as he was making this monument bigger and more detailed

and adding a freaking cave, the committee was like, hmm, oh, yikes. Okay. So we've already spent a lot of money, and the fundraising is going pretty slow. We should probably scale this thing back. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm still wondering where the money's coming from. You gave this association, but like, yeah. Yeah.

In the summer of 1923, they went to Gutson and they gave him the bad news. The Hall of Records, gone. Can't happen. Cavalry? Nay. Oh, my God. All the soldiers, gone, gone, gone. Instead, they told him that they just wanted the central group.

Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson. Jefferson Davis, and also definitely four other Confederate dudes. Ooh, could I take a stab? Sure, sure, please do. Do they list who they wanted? No. Oh. That's going to be a big point of contention.

Hmm. Jeb Stewart. Are you just making up names? Nathan Bedford Forrest. Oh, that sounds like a real name. P.T. Beauregard. And Sterling Price. Hmm.

Now, Sterling Price. No. was not, even the Confederates didn't like Sterling Price. Anyway, go on. Oh, I was just about to say, but they couldn't tell Gutson which four they wanted because they were very busy arguing amongst themselves over who those four should be.

Hmm. So, sit tight. Oh, wait a minute. Hang on. What? Sorry, I was going to say, James Longstreet. That would have been an easy inclusion. Sorry, I couldn't remember his name.

Yeah. Longstreet? Yeah, James Longstreet. It sounds like a porn name. Oh, yeah, what was the way to make your porn name as a kid? It was like the street you grew up on. Yeah, and your first pet's name? Yeah.

Yeah, so mine would be Shadow Raleigh. Ooh. Mine would be Trixie Frontier. Oh, well, that's pretty good, right? Yes. Mm-hmm. I'd like to get to know you, Trixie. Okay.

Trixie Frontier. One of my friends crying up, his poor name would have been Greg 83rd Street. Greg 83rd? His pet's name was Greg? Yeah. That's a great name. It's a very sexy name. I love when people give like real names, real human names to pets like Greg.

Well, you just shed all over. for Calvin Coolidge. That's a dog's name, so. Yeah, but you were naming the dog after great presidents, and for some reason you picked Calvin Coolidge. I didn't say great presidents. I just said some president.

That's true. So, they told Gutson, you know, hey, scale everything back a bit, and then they presented him with a contract. Ooh. He needed to finish the project in three years at a cost of $250,000.

Oh, well, this is not going to be a great monument. Is there really scaling it back? That was the quote to do the prep work. Right. But instead, they got those swings. And we can all agree, you know, that's a great substitution. Unless you're the guy who has to be in the swing. Yeah, that's fucking terrifying.

Adjusted for inflation, this is about $4.6 million. And Gutson, who was very good at telling people what they wanted to hear, was like, oh, of course. Three years, sure, no problem. 250K, that's the max budget. I love it. Also, you've taken a Mr. Clean magic eraser to like half of my design. Oh, I'm totally fine with that. I'm not mad at all.

Whatever. He's bright grit in his teeth. Sure, we'll do it. In other words, Gutson signed the contract that they wanted him to. to sign and was super agreeable, but privately he was like, I'm in charge and I'm going to do whatever I want. He was acting like he owned a mountain. Yeah.

Yeah. Which, I got to say, I mean, you do kind of have some power over people when you're literally carving into a mountain and everyone can see it. It's like, what are you going to let me stop? Because I tell you it's going to take four years. They could fire him and bring in someone else, right? Oh, maybe. That was another big problem between Gutson Borglum and the Stone Mountain Monumental Association.

Gutson thought that since he was the creative genius and he was brilliant and he was everything to everyone all the time, that he was in charge. And the Stone Mountain Monumental Association thought that since they were the ones in charge of the project, that that meant that they were the ones in charge of the project. that that meant that they were the ones in charge of the project. So... You know what this reminds me of? What? Sounds like someone's struggling for power. Have that button on the ready, baby.

Excellent. It's one of my favorites. But, you know, for now, things were kind of okay because everybody's kind of lying to each other. That June, Getson's crew began carving Robert E. Lee's head. That sounded a lot more sinister than I meant it to. witch head okay

calm down this isn't the World War I monument imagine if they did like if they're like we love our Confederate generals we want you to sculpt them as Greek gods fully nude

so it's like Robert E. Lee fully new with his dong hanging out there'd be just a giant dong flopping out of stone mountain okay you joke but I did kind of wonder like why do we

we not do more nudes in our monuments? Yeah, send nudes. I mean, I think maybe I'd be less mad about Confederate monuments if they were all naked. Wow. Maybe not. Stonewall Jackson, riding that horse naked. I don't think the daughters of the Confederacy would appreciate that. Well, then they didn't really love the Confederacy, did they?

You're making a mockery of the Confederacy. Yeah, I guess if the why of the monument is to, like, intimidate people and show power. Right, and you're not doing that if he's buck-ass naked. Yeah, no, it's like if your why is, let's turn everybody on. I don't know why, but this Confederate monument's really got me horny. Anyway, so that June, oh, they already, I mentioned the head carving. Okay, that's enough, everybody, let's be mature. Yes.

But as soon as they got started, they realized they were working way too slowly. Oh, yeah, a three-year time limit. Not happening. We just started on his nostril. It's been two years. So once again, they had to innovate. If they used dynamite, they might use too much. If they went for a gentler method, the project would never get done.

Why are you laughing? This is so funny. Why are you laughing? It's just a rushed art project. It was like doing your school project. night before you. It always turns out great. Is he just going to look terrible?

I don't know, Norm. I didn't realize they're using dynamite to like blow his face off. No, they're not. So they brought in an explosives expert who showed them how, you know, once they found some stone that they wanted to blast away, they could drill it with a bunch of holes and then load it with light charges. I don't even know what that means. And then blast it and then, woo, tumble off the mountain.

Oh, okay. So they were ready to go. They'd figured it all out. A few months passed and, holy shit, they could actually see progress. Robert E. Lee's face was on the side of Stone Mountain. How do you like that? Wow. People got really excited.

It was really happening. This ridiculous, unlikely idea was finally coming to fruition. Did it look like Robert E. Lee? Yeah, he was a good sculptor, Norm. Okay. Ever heard of him? Gutsenborglam? Yeah.

Or maybe you've heard of his more famous little brother. Salon. Yeah, except he died in 1922. Oh. Yeah. Well, wow, why'd you leave that out? Well, it wasn't really part of the story. This is all about Stone Mountains, sir.

You could have just said, and then his brother died. I just did. Oh, that's true. Do you know how he died? Pancaped by a dump truck. No, I don't know. That's how Hitler died, I heard. A lot of people die that way.

So the media wrote stories about the progress. People started donating money because they were actually seeing stuff happening. You're getting these people pumped up. And Gutson saw an opportunity. Oh, boy. January 19, 24 would be Robert E. Lee's 117th birthday. What a perfect opportunity to unveil his face. What a perfect opportunity to drum up much needed money. Well, Norm, the day came and they went all out. Robert E. Lee's birthday bash at Stone Mountain drew 10,000 visitors. Woo! Happy birthday! It's a douchebag's birthday. Happy birthday, birthday today. Hey, hey!

This was the show of all shows. Souvenere vendors flocked to it. The media covered the shit out of it. They did a dramatic unveiling and revealed Robert E. Lee's face. etched onto the side of Stone Mountain. You haven't asked about the United Daughters of the Confederacy in a minute, and frankly, that's pretty rude. So I'll bring them up myself.

It was their idea in the first place. Yeah. Helen Plain, who I mentioned earlier, had been 88 years old when she first reached out to Gutsenborglum about this monument, was still alive and attended this unveiling. So she was 95, 96? She was 94 years old and she showed up to the ceremony in full plantation garb. Man, I need an old woman sound clip.

I'm an old man. Can you imagine anything more chilling than a United Daughter of the Confederacy showing up in plantation garb? Anyway. What is plantation garb? I don't know. I'm picturing like a big old black dress and, you know, The works, the bonnet, the whole thing. It was probably hers as a kid.

Right? Probably hers as a middle-aged woman. Yeah. She just kept it. When she was in her 40s. When they unveiled Robert E. Lee's face, she was so happy. She cried. Wow.

Emotional. Afterward, Gutson made a big show of inviting three southern governors to walk out onto a platform that they'd mounted over Robert E. Lee's shoulder. The governor sat down at a table with a white tablecloth and fine china 300 feet in the air, and they ate fried chicken. Three hundred, there's no way I would do that. Are you kidding me? As much as I love fried chicken, I'm not getting 300 feet in the air. How much fried chicken would there have to be?

There's never enough. I love how you're setting all the problematic stuff aside and you're just like, I'm not getting on that platform because I am scared. Listen, that's my greatest fear, okay? Heights is my greatest fear. It's true. That'd be problem number one for me. It was happening.

At long last, the Confederacy was getting the monument it deserved. Okay. But what people didn't know was that everything was about to go to shit. Oh, no. Oh, yeah. It's so sad. What happened? Well, see, all the press for the Stone Mountain Monument had drawn the attention of a lot of people,

including a mild-mannered South Dakota state historian named Donne Robinson. And Donne was impressed by the monument. Carvings on mountains? How cool! Gee, I wonder if we could get something like that in South Dakota. So he reached out to Gutson. Oh, did he give him, offer him more money? Maybe Gutson made a trip to South Dakota.

And maybe Dohn floated the idea for a Stone Mountain-style monument that would feature people like Lewis and Clark. No, well, that would be cool. It would have been, right? Yeah. And maybe Gutson was like, okay, but if you want to be sure to get federal funding for this monument, I'd suggest you go with, like, iconic American presidents. Yeah.

George Washington, Abraham Lincoln. Oh, who else? Millard Fillmore. Ooh, no. Donan Gutson didn't come to any kind of formal agreement. This was more of an emotional affair, not a physical one. Mm-hmm. But word got back to the Stone Mountain Monumental Association

that Gutson was talking about doing a Yankee monument. Oh, shit. Everyone betrays me. I don't have betrayed. Shit. They were like, you two. Due time and whore, Gutson. They were pissed.

He wasn't even a tenth of the way through with their much more important monument. For the Stone Mountain Monumental Association, this was salt in an already salty wound. Gutson had proven himself to be very difficult to control. To make things worse, the aftermath of Robert E. Lee's epic birthday bash wasn't really going as planned.

you'd think it would have drummed up a bunch of money, but instead it drummed up a bunch of conversation. Conversations like, okay, so it's going to be Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis, but then, you know, it has to be Billy Bob from down the road. No, oh, no, oh, it ought to be Billy Ed from up the street. So then people start arguing about who's going to go on the mountain. They want their brother, they want their friend,

and they want this random dude, and no one wants to donate until they know for sure that the people that they want on the mountain are actually going to be on the mountain. James Longstreet. Exactly. Nathan Bedford Forrest. Wouldn't it be great if it was just James Longstreet in the nude and everyone else is fully clothed? After the Civil War, the Southerners didn't take too kindly to James Longstreet. Okay. I know nothing about the man other than he has a great porn name,

and I want him naked on a mountain, okay? So that's all I want to know. Basically, he was like, oh, well, yeah, slavery is over, so we should integrate black people into society now. And the Southerners were like, hell no. And then they also blamed James Longstreet for the Battle of Gettysburg and why they lost. They're like, you're the reason we lost that battle,

not our great Robert E. Lee. It was Robert Ely's fault, by the way. Anyway, that'll be a future topic, Battle of Gettysburg. That might be fun. I had heard a different story about him. What are you going to say? Go ahead. That he shot up porn?

No, I had heard that they got mad at him because he, like, showed up at their door and said he was the pizza guy, and then he goes in. And then he starts having sex. I also heard another story about how he was the plumber, and he, like, came to, you know, drain your pipes or whatever. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Long street plumbing.

Yeah, these are just the stories that I heard. Yeah, I'm a friend. I'm going to have to lay some pipe. This is a stupid joke. This is a very stupid joke. So, things were rough, but there was still hope. I mentioned earlier that they'd talked about doing some sort of Confederate commemorative coin to drum up a bunch of money for the monument.

Yep, limited edition. Three easy payments. 4999, we only have 100,000 of these, and they're going fast. I've seen these infomercials. We've all seen them. Yeah. Call now. The plan was to convince Congress to print 5 million Confederate Memorial half dollars.

There is no fucking way they're going to do that. The Stone Mountain Monumental Association would buy the coins from the government at face value, then sell the coins for a full dollar. That would be more than enough money to fund the whole project, hopefully. all they had to do was convince the government to go along with the idea. There's no fucking way they're going to do that. What? Why not?

They're pretty sure that this is going to work. Why are you such a naysayer? Such a poo-poor. Hmm? They think the federal government who fought and defeated the Confederate States of America is going to print a Confederate memorial coin. for them. Yeah.

Okay. They did think that. Mm-hmm. And Norm, welcome to America, baby, because they absolutely did. What the fuck? Are you serious? I am absolutely serious. Gutson was well connected, Norm, and so was the KKK.

Oh, yeah. Well, and Woodrow Wilson. Well, no, Woodrow Wilson wasn't president anymore, but he did. He was a big shithead. They got the support of two Senate. This was unanimous. No one fought this. President Calvin Coolidge signed it, and Bing, Bang, Boom, the federal government was fully ready to create a coin commemorating those terrorists. Ah, you love to see it. That blows my mind. I had no idea. This just shows how fucked up we are.

No kidding. What? This whole story shows how fucked up we are. Yeah, that's fucking insane. This is what happens when you don't punish people for their wrongdoing. Reconstruction was a huge failure. We call that an epic fail. Okay, great. Thank you for... We got appeal to the kids.

The kids in 2012. Epic fail. Reconstruction. You let them remain in power, and this is what happens. So all they had to do was design the coin and get to printin. But, uh, oops. there was a problem. Oh?

The National Fine Arts Commission had to approve all the coin designs so that we didn't end up with dongs on our coins or something. Okay, who put Lincoln's dick on this penny? I would buy a commemorative Lincoln's dick penny. I think we all would. Everyone would. The penny would be in style again. Norm, Gutson Borglum didn't take kindly to other people telling him how to do art.

He argued with them about everything in this design, how the horse's legs should be shaped, whether the American Eagle should wear sunglasses, whether the word Confederacy should be in comic sands. You know, they just argued about everything. All of that was very real. This fight lasted six months. Jesus, you're really delaying this fundraising project. It went through nine redesigns. But finally, the coin was ready to be printed. All right. With these coins, the monument could be fully funded. It could be finished. What could go wrong? By this point, the Stone Mountain Monumental Association had already asked the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta to be the ones to hold and sell the coins on behalf of the association when the coins became available. Yeah.

Okay. You do not seem scandalized by that. I was also not scandalized by that. Yeah, because I don't know anything. I'm an idiot. I thought they should be parachuting down and chisling away. I'm a simple man. For some reason, when Gutson found out about this arrangement,

he assumed that this was some shady deal, and he became convinced that the Stone Mountain Monumental Association was in cahoots with the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, and that everyone was getting some kind of kickback from the sale of these coins, everyone that is, except for him. Mm. Gutson went nuclear. He immediately set out to find some other group to sell the coins, and when he found a group, he was like,

okay, all the coins have to go there, because I said so. And the Stone Mountain people were like, well, now it sounds like you're the one trying to get kickbacks from these coins. Sounds like someone's struggling for power. Yeah. There was a lot of distrust, a lot of anger. And then... I see this all the time in...

Kitchen Nightmares. This is exactly like every episode of Kitchen Nightmares. It's absolutely disgusting. In December of 1924, Gutson was like, hey, you owe me 40 grand. It's for a bunch of design work that I did a long time ago and also for designing that coin. Yeah. Pay up. I've been tracking my hours.

Adjusted for inflation, he's asking for about 700 grand. Hoo! Yeah. Okay. And the Stone Mountain people were like, what? We don't owe you any money. We already paid you for all your design work and you've said that you were going to design that coin for free. So get out of here. Yeah. Gutson was livid. So he decided to play hardball. He said, you pay me my 40K or I will walk. And they will... I will parachute

off this mountain. And I won't chisel as I go down because I'm not working for free, baby. And the Stone Mountain people were like, oh, oh, oh, is that what you think you're going to do? Okay, let's do some math together, shall we? Hmm, according to the contract you signed, you were supposed to finish the sculpture for 250K, and we'd give you that money as you completed the work. And between equipment and labor and your own fee, we've already paid you 161K, and yet the work isn't even a third of the way done. Huh. So, hmm, the way we see it is if you walk away now, you'll owe us. Oh, gosh, carry the one. Look at that. Oh, you'll owe us exactly 40K. So they got them.

Gutson didn't walk. Yeah. And the association didn't pay him 40K. But now they really hated each other. It was just a little hate before. Okay, I want to pause here. because Rex Allen Smith is the author of the book Carving Mount Rushmore. And he did some digging into this trying to figure out, like, who was in the right in this argument? So he wanted to do a deep dive into the legal work. Well, none of this was legal. I mean, okay. Like the contract, right?

A little bit. But the short answer is that probably no one was right. So the Stone Mountain Monumental Association did eventually get audited. And it turned out that, yeah, things were a little fishy with them. Yeah. But on the other hand, yeah, I mean, shocking, right? But on the other hand, when Gutson would later work on Mount Rushmore, he had this funny habit where any time he got into a bit of a financial pinch, he'd all of a sudden be like,

um, you owe me money for design work that I did. And also, there's a new fee, and you need to pay it right now. It's called the Gutson Cheesecake Factory. fee. And we pay it gladly every time. He wouldn't come out and just say it. That's what it was. In conclusion, everyone sucks.

Then came January of 1925, and this was when things got really nasty. The Stone Mountain people told Gutson that they wanted to shrink the monument again. No, not again. They only wanted Robert Ely, Stonewall Jackson, and Jefferson Davis, okay? They didn't want to mess with the other four

mystery dudes. They couldn't stop arguing about it. And also they'd made a big decision about the Confederate coins. They decided that the money they got from selling those coins wouldn't necessarily go toward creating the monument. Instead, you know, it would be used for, quote, future purposes and causes. And for Gutson, this was the last straw. He was like, the only reason you even have these coins coming to you is because of me. Yeah, he designed them. He put in those hours. The only reason you want a smaller memorial is so that you can steal all that money. Gutson wasted no time. He had to stop them. He wrote to President Calvin Coolidge and he was like,

stop the coin. And Calvin was like, oh, geez, and kind of pretended that Gutson's letter got lost in the mail because he didn't really give a shit about these coins. He said new phone, who dis? But Gutson was like, have beef, will travel. So he was. went to Washington, D.C., and he held a press conference. God damn it. In front of the White House? I don't know that it was in front of the White House, but sure, why not? He told the media that the Stone Mountain Monumental Association was all kinds of messed up and terrible.

They were the worst. And how did the Stone Mountain Monumental Association find out that they were being bad-mouthed to the national media? Well, if he was doing it to the national media, wouldn't they? You know? Yeah, it was when they picked up the newspaper on February 22nd, 1925, and they were floored. They hadn't seen this coming. So they got together, and they made some decisions. Decision number one, Gutson Borglum, fired!

Yep. Decision number two, they'd find some other equally qualified artists to finish his work. This would not be the end of the Stone Mountain Confederate Monument. Yeah, we are going to keep going. As soon as Getson caught wind of that news, he rushed back to Atlanta. He was panicked at the idea of some other artist, obviously inferior because he was the best, coming in and taking over. He'd spent 10 years of his life working on that monument.

It was his. His legacy was at stake. Gutson hauled ass to the studio at the base of Stone Mountain. In that studio sat a gigantic model of the work that still needed to be done. The thing was 12 feet tall, 24 feet wide. Gutson flung the door open He yelled to a workman Hey, take a hammer

Destroy that model What? And the man did as he was told Sounds like someone's struggling for power In the meantime, Gutson hauled ass Up the mountain, huffing and puffing Up to the top of the jelly bean He got to the top

He lowered himself onto one of the platforms On the platform sat two models One was of Robert E. Lee's shoulders Gutson shoved it off the platform It sailed through the air, shattered on the ground He sabotaged the mountain project Gutz and went to the other model This one was of Stonewall Jackson's head and he shoved it off the platform.

It sailed through the air and shattered on the ground. Are you serious? I am serious, baby. Wow. From there, Gutson ran to Sam Venable's house. That's where Mary was waiting for him. Gutson knew that it wouldn't be long before the Stone Mountain Monumental Association found out what he'd done. And he was right.

When they found out, they were livid. They considered those models and everything that God, Gutson had worked on to be their property. Yeah. And since he just destroyed their property, guess what? A sheriff was on his way to arrest Gutson Borglam. Ooh! Get out of there, Gutson.

What was 57-year-old Gutson Borglam to do? Well, as you said, Norm, he had to get out of there. He moved to South Dakota. He grabbed his stuff, got in a vehicle, and drove as fast as he could out of Georgia. He drove and drove and drove. He drove for 120 miles to North Carolina. Ooh. Gutson was friendly with the governor of North Carolina.

Uh-huh. And it's a good thing he was. Because the Stone Mountain folk knew exactly where Gutson was hiding. They sued him for 50K in damages, and the state of Georgia called for him to be extradited back to the state. But the governor of North Carolina was like, no, I'm not extraditing him. Oh.

Wow. This got real spicy. I wasn't expecting this. You weren't expecting all the destruction. So much drama. Oh, that's the perfect thing for when he's running up the mountain. Up that jelly bean. Climb that bean.

So they're in this standoff. And this, of course, made national news. The Stone Mountain Monumental Association tried to start a war of words. in the media. But, honey, this was clearly their first rodeo, and it wasn't Gutson's. Yep. Their media statements were stuffy. They were strong, but, you know, a little boring.

Meanwhile, I would like to read to you what Gutson told the media. Are you ready? I'm ready. I destroyed the models for the greatest piece of sculpture in the world's history because I believe in the right of the artist to own his creation. I am ready to rot in jail before I concede this principle. Let the small provincial minds of my enemies contemplate the work of stone cutters or shoemakers if they wish. I am ready for a fight.

Wow, I'm inspired. I'm ready to die for guts in Borgland. Can you imagine destroying something that you made and saying, I destroyed the greatest piece of sculpture in the world's history. History. Yeah, I liked that line. Oh, it's amazing. It's the best. Anytime I mess anything up that I've done, I just destroyed the greatest thing in the world's history. You know, currently we are recording the greatest podcast in history.

I didn't even think of that. Yeah. But I should have, because it's obviously true. Yeah, we had Judge Judy on. Who else can say that? We mentioned dongs like 12 times. That's all you need for a great podcast. He accused the Stone Mountain folks of trying to crucify.

him. Oh, so images of Jesus Christ as well. Excellent. He was also Jesus. In fairness to him, this group did love their crosses. Yeah. Burning crosses. The Stone Mountain Monumental Association fired back, saying that Gutson had been impossible to work with. He'd had delusions of grandeur. He'd had an ungovernable temper. And they weren't wrong. No, I was going to say all true statements. Delusions of grandeur? Yeah, check, check, check. But Gutson had worked so hard to have friends in all the right places, and that really paid off in this fight. The national media was on his side. He'd always been good to them. He'd always given them a story. Artists were on his side. They identified with his plight. And there were some high-powered folks in Georgia who'd always been kind of suspicious of this little association. So they pressed for an audit. And the audit. it revealed that more than half of the money that had been raised for the monument. Yeah. Hadn't been spent on the monument.

Ah, interesting. What was it spent on? Oh, um, a lot. New hoods? I just spat everywhere. Fashionable new robes. Um, the source I said, the source I read said that it was like office stuff and, but it's like, office supplies.

Yeah, just so many pencils. So many pencils. No, I think people were maybe getting some sticky fingers. Sticky notes, actually. Office supplies. Okay. That was stupid. I want a personalized nameplate on my desk.

And I want a really big one. I want it carved into a mountain. This was pretty embarrassing for the association, but they were determined to keep going. They hired a sculptor named Henry Augustus Lukman to finish the monument. And, of course, that pissed guts and off. Yeah, that was his monument. He started it.

Yeah. So what do you think he said about this guy? This guy's a loser. He's always been a loser. Okay, well, hear me. And he doesn't respect other artists. He should have refused to take this job. That's way too professional and nice.

Oh, wow. I thought that was pretty shitty, but. It was, but I know we, let's get shittier. I know we all believe firmly in our heart. hearts that it's possible to go to KKK meetings just for the business connections. But here's what he said. Every able man in America refused it and thank God every Christian. They got a Jew. Oh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That guy sucks. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Terribly nice guy. Henry got started in a spot just below the work that Gutson had completed. He finished two heads and

one horse and they blasted guts and Borgulam's work off the mountainside. Did they? So they blasted Robert E. Lee's face off? They blasted his ass off. Wow. Even after that huge birthday bash? Yeah. Damn.

Bad memories. It's like, you know, you get rid of all the stuff your ex got you. Even if it was just a real nice framed painting of B. Arthur, you just got to get rid of it because of the memories that are attached. It reminds you. Yep. Yep. Out of sight, out of mind.

Then in 1928, the Stone Mountain Monumental Association had to be like, um, hey, Henry, yeah, we can't keep paying you anymore. Let's wrap this up, folks. So I know you only did two heads in one horse, but, uh, we're done. I just spat everyone. Yeah, that's good. You could stop there. This whole thing was just embarrassing. They'd put all this work and money into what was supposed to be a Confederate monument

that reminded everyone about who was to be revered and reminded everyone about who was in power. But there's something about a shitty, incomplete, failed Confederate monument that's like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife. It's like meeting the Confederate of your dreams. And then meeting his... beautiful wife. Gutson Borglum wasn't doing too hot himself, honestly. The Stone Mountain Memorial was supposed to be his magnum opus. He'd wasted so much of his life on it. Yeah, how old was Gutson now? He's 57 years old, deeply in debt, and a fugitive. He's on the run. But he knew that the

best revenge and the only way to finish what he'd started was to start again. That's right. He'd take what he learned and apply it to a bigger and better monument. Yeah. That monument would be in the Black Hills of South Dakota. In next week's episode, Gutson Borglum tackles Mount Rushmore. Ooh. But wait, there's more. Oh.

Technically, the story should probably end here. But I want to finish with what became of Stone Mountain. Yes. Because I'm obsessed. The hoes want to know. Okay. All right, hoes. Settle in. Well, this will be quick, but I just had to finish with what happened. So for a couple decades, the monument on Stone Mountain just sat there. There were no plans to finish it, and there was no real desire to finish it.

At the start of this episode, I talked about the why of the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial. It hadn't been about honoring Southerners. It had been about honoring the people who fought to defend. slavery and honoring those values in a place that wasn't significant to the Civil War but was sacred to the KKK. That was the Y in 1915. And decades later, when the monument actually was finished, the why didn't change. The thing that reignited interest in the Stone Mountain Confederate Monument was, what do you think? Civil rights? Yeah. Yeah. In 1954, the Supreme Court made a landmark decision in Brown v. the Board of Education when they ruled that segregation in public schools was unconstitutional. And 57 days after that Supreme Court decision,

a segregationist named Marvin Griffin was running for governor of the state of Georgia. And he made a campaign promise. He promised. I'm going to finish Stone Mountain. Uh-huh. He sure did. I bet he won by a landslide. He promised that if he was elected governor, the state would purchase Stone Mountain and they'd finish the work that had started so many years ago. They'd get their Confederate monument. As you predicted, he did win the election. And he came through on those campaign promises. In fact, when Stone Mountain became a state park, it was established as a memorial to the Confederacy.

Sure. Around that same period, Georgia added the Confederate symbol to their state flag. And there's a message about who was really in charge. The stars and bars? I'm afraid so. In 1964, Walter Curtlin Hancock became the third sculptor to take over the Stone Mountain Monument. The following year, Stone Mountain State Park had its official grand opening. Technically, it had been open for a while, but they held the grand opening on April 14, 1965.

the 100-year anniversary of Abraham Lincoln's assassination. They did that on purpose? Absolutely. Ooh, that's fucked up. Walter Hancock finished his sculpture in 1972. Man. This is so recent. Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, and Stonewall Jackson are on Stone Mountain. hats over their hearts riding horses the horses are fully clothed the horses are nude the horses are nude but they're fully clothed yes i'm afraid so and they're big each of their heads is 90 feet tall the carving recesses 42 feet it's actually bigger than mount rushmore is it really yes but it doesn't look it because it looks fucking stupid i'm so i don't feel obviously i hate this confederate monument thing. My feelings on the racism and all that aside, I think it looks fucking stupid. Yeah. Okay. This thing could say, we love Kristen. I'd still be like, that looks really stupid. Because as you said, Stone Mountain is kind of unusual. It's this big dome. Yeah. That's just kind of

bear. And so even if you have a big giant sculpture, it doesn't look like a big giant sculpture because it looks like someone scratched a jelly bean. Hmm, yeah. Okay, so I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that the clan was reborn on Stone Mountain in 1915. Yeah. And that the youngest person at that ceremony was Sam Venable's 13-year-old nephew. Mm-hmm. That boy's name was James Venable.

He went on to become an attorney and a mayor of Stone Mountain, Georgia. Oh, boy. And by the time this memorial was completed, he was a little less than half a little less than half. halfway through his 25-year tenure as the Imperial Wizard of the National Knights of the KKK. Mm-hmm. I think it's worth mentioning that in 2001, Georgia removed the Confederate symbol from its state flag, but it was an ugly fight, and concessions had to be made. And one of those concessions was that the symbol could be removed from the flag,

but no Confederate monuments, and specifically the stone. Mountain Confederate monument could ever be altered or removed. So that's written into law in Georgia? Yeah. Today, Stone Mountain State Park, I'm sorry to say, it looks cool and fun. It has a train and a golf course and shopping and restaurants and good hiking and camping. Great. Make the fucking best of it.

I fucking hate this. It looks lovely. but at the same time it's home to this massive Confederate monument, it looks like someone went up to a big beautiful swimming pool on a hot day and took a dump in it and ruined it for everybody. Yeah. Anyway, that's how I ended this story. It was so interesting.

So I mentioned that documentary that I watched. This woman was talking about her own family's complicated relationship with Stone Mountain. Yeah. So she was saying how her mom, so her parents are black. So her mom, you know, like, it's just a beautiful place. And so like she was part of this organization and they wanted to have picnics there. And, you know, why not? She wanted to take the kids there.

Why not? You know, it's nice. And her dad was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We are not going to this like KKK place. Are you kidding me? Right. And it was just so interesting. because it's one of those kind of unusual scenarios where two people have completely opposite opinions, but I agree with them both.

Two things can be true. Yes. Yeah. So I don't know. It's just, I'm just fascinated by this story and how it happened and like, ugh. And wait till we get to Mount Rushmore. Yeah. Yeah.

Which had its own problems, I believe. What? Huh? No. Yeah. Yeah. Turns out, there's problems in the next chapter of this story, too. Mm-hmm.

Stay tuned, folks. Oh, it would be interesting to do an episode on Confederate monuments. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Actually, the story of monuments after the Civil War, I think, is pretty interesting. Okay.

The United States failed to memorialize the most important thing that came out of the Civil War, and that was emancipation and the end of slavery. And that failure allowed Confederate monuments to crop up everywhere. There was a organization that wanted to – it was made up of black soldiers that started to – it was made up of black soldiers that – served in the Union Army, they wanted a memorial for what they did and what they went through. And it was going to be called the Friedman's Memorial. The original plan was actually really cool. It was like four columns. And on each column, it was like the progression of from slave to soldier.

And then in the middle was like the tomb of Abraham Lincoln. And he was like laying dead like on this tomb. So it was like very powerful image. Yes. That got scrapped. And the memorial became a enslaved black man kneeling up to Abraham Lincoln. And Abraham Lincoln is standing and, you know, he has his hand on the enslaved man's head, you know. Wow.

Yeah, it's in Washington, D.C. that memorial. Got to take the power away. Yeah. So it really was a failure of our country to memorialize the most important thing that came out of that war. Yeah. Yeah. And what that war was really about. Yeah.

Our good friend John Quincy Adams Ward. Uh-huh. That name sounded familiar because he did an incredible sculpture called the Friedman. And it was a formerly enslaved man sitting on like a tree stump or something. His shackles are broken And he's kind of like Laning on his knee Thinking, looking up

Yeah And it was like The future What will become of me now? Yeah It's a very powerful image Well and really more like What will I do now?

Right Because he's not looking to anyone else Right Uh huh He made It was just a little sculpture Yeah And it was made in like

1863 Right after the Emancipation Proclamation. People were like, oh, this would be an incredible statue. Yeah. In like monument and memorial, and nothing became of it. We actually saw that in the African American History Museum in Washington, D.C. I was paying attention to Oprah's couch.

They had Michelle Obama's dress, too, didn't they? Yeah, I took pictures. Kristen loved the first lady exhibit at the Smithsonian, all the dresses. Oh, the dresses and also you get to see what China they picked out. Oh. Yeah. I feel like it tells a lot about a person. Yeah, Confederate monuments.

Norm, you look like you want to lay down for a while. Well, here's the thing. Like, memorials and monuments should serve the needs of the present. What do we want to stand for as a society? What do we believe in right now? Yeah. What will serve our future? And I don't think Confederate monuments do.

that. No. No. Absolutely not. What do you think should happen to, like, the Stone Mountain monument? Well, Stone Mountain is interesting because it's in a fucking mountain. Yeah. Well, that's why I asked, because it's not as simple as, like, a statue that you kind of remove and, you know.

Yeah, so I've seen, like, statues are, like, destroyed. Yeah. Or they're moved to a cemetery. Mm-hmm. Or they're put in a museum. Yeah. But yeah, when it's like carved into a mountain that's a little different. What do you?

Blow it up? Like blow up the image? I mean, do you put little party hats on them? Like, what fuck do you do? I don't know. I feel like they blasted off guts and Borglum stuff. Why not blast that off? Yeah, I guess.

And then. They have to change the law in Georgia, I guess. Well, that's fine. We've changed a lot of laws in our time. Guess what? They used to enslave people in Georgia. it and they don't anymore, so we can change it. Really makes you think.

Yes. What if they blasted it off? And then they just, in that space, carved, the KKK is stupid. That's all it says? No, yeah, that's it. Straighten to the point. Yeah. Maybe we should get an artist involved in this.

No, no need. See, Kristen, you're... Just a bunch of people with their parachutes, everybody has a letter and they need to do their best. Honestly, Kristen, I think I think you're you're an artist yourself. Oh, yeah. You came up with a brilliant monument of repurposing old Kmart as vaginas. Oh my God, we blast off the Stone Mountain stuff and I bet that'll create a good crevice. It wouldn't take that much more work to make that into a vagina. Stone Mountain Vagina Memorial. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. I'm a fan. A lot of good ideas. Yeah. Well, should we wrap this up?

I think we should. Oh, Lord. Kristen, you know what they say about history, hoes. We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from the book, The Carving of Mount Rushmore by Rex Allen Smith. The documentary, Mount Rushmore. The documentary, Monument, the untold story of Stone Mountain. From the Atlantic. History Center, as well as reporting from PBS, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the Atlanta Journal Constitution. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podker. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Judge Judy wants you to. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok at Old Timey Podcast. And follow us individual.

on Instagram. I'm at Kristen Pitts Caruso. He's Gaming Astorian. And until next time, Tooteloo, Tata, and Cheerio. Play the TV one. Where did the 27-inch Cola TV come from? Goodbye, everyone. Goodbye.