An Old Timey Podcast - 21: Mount Rushmore: Awesome and Awful (Part 4)

Episode Date: September 4, 2024

In the finale of our Mount Rushmore series, Mount Rushmore National Memorial gets finished. But the final product isn’t quite what Gutzon Borglum envisioned. The presidents aren’t sculpted down to their waists. There is no entablature. There is no true hall of records. There isn’t a message, written in three languages, in the hope that it’ll one day become Rosetta Stone 2: Electric Boogaloo. And yet? It’s there! Despite the odds, four 60-foot tall faces of iconic American presidents are carved into a stolen, sacred mountain. Every year, millions of tourists make the trek to take a look. So… how do we feel about that? Welp, as Normie C likes to say, “two things can be true!” It’s awful and awesome, beautiful and hideous, exciting and saddening. Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Kristin pulled from: The book, “The Carving of Mount Rushmore,” by Rex Alan Smith The documentary, “Mount Rushmore” “The Sordid History of Mount Rushmore,” by Matthew Shaer for Smithsonian Magazine “Biography: Gutzon Borglum,” PBS.org “The heartbreaking, controversial history of Mount Rushmore,” by Amy McKeever for National Geographic “Why Native Americans Have Protested Mount Rushmore,” by Jodi Rave for History.com “Are treaties perpetual? United States v. Sioux Nation of Indians,” by Reid Benson for teachingamericanhistory.org The video, “The dark history of Mount Rushmore,” for TedEd.com “BIOGRAPHY: Native Americans and Mount Rushmore,” PBS.org “United States v. Sioux Nation of Indians,” Encyclopedia of the Great Plains “Who speaks for Crazy Horse,” by Brooke Jarvis for The New Yorker Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts! Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm learning something new every episode, Norman Caruso. And on this episode, Mount Rushmore gets done. Done? Done. Well, finally, it only took them four years. Yeah, that's all it took. Yeah. Remember in episode one when I was like, oh, it should only take like 12 guys four years? Yeah, you were really optimistic, weren't you? I was.

And then the more I learned, the more I realized how wrong I was. Norm, I want you to think about how long it's taking us to get a shower in our house. That's true. And then think about what it would take to carve four faces into a mountain. Or four faces into our shower. Another great idea. Yeah. It's going to take even longer now.

Norm, see, I'm anxiously awaiting your Patreon plus. Kristen, it's been a wild three weeks. What a whirlwind time it's been. Uh, okay. You were a contestant on a hit new game show. We had Judge Judy stopped by the studio. She sure did. And then Dr. Hubert Montgomery gave us a very generous valuation of our Patreon.

Handsome fella. I agree. I wish I could have met him. But today I'm not going to do any wild gimmicks. Oh. Because I'm actually just feeling very grateful. And so I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm having a ton of fun making this show.

Kristen, I hope you feel the same way. Yeah, I do. So, and we just really appreciate all the support. We're an independent podcast. That only happens thanks to your generous support. You can learn more about everything and sign up at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. And hey, even if you can't contribute, we really do appreciate you giving us a listen. So thank you very much, history hoes.

Wow, Norm, you know, no gimmick, just genuine gratitude. Yep, just feeling some gratitude this week. If you ask me. Whoa, whoa. Oh, no, this is all real. This is from the heart. You know, I'm with you. We're very lucky that we started this new show, and we've had.

support right from the start. You know, I mean, it helped that I was coming from another podcast, but like... And me from YouTube, of course. Oh, naturally. That YouTube bump. Yeah, but Kristen, these history hos are coming out from everywhere, under rocks, out from dark alleys, in the back of cars. Around from carving a mountain.

Yeah, they're just appearing. And we welcome them all. We do. We really appreciate you listening to this hilarious, classy, intellectual podcast. Anyway, do we have any mistakes of shame this week? Oh, shit, I forgot to write, I'm sure I did. Oh, I know you do, kids, I wrote it down. Shit, okay, okay, what did I do? What I do?

Well, oh, you, you look so smug. Mistakes of shame! That was really echoy. I feel like I need to be ashamed of a lot of things right now. Kristen, these histories. Ho's had some things to say about your assessment of why Gutson Borglum included Teddy Roosevelt in Mount Rushmore. Oh, really?

That's right. Okay. You claimed it was because they were best buddies. Well, yeah, I mean, Gutson and Senator Peter Norbeck both campaigned for Teddy Roosevelt. They loved him. Gutson considered him a personal friend. Yeah, but why didn't you mention that Teddy Roosevelt created the National Park System? Something very important to the Dakota states.

Well, hey, I'm not shitting on Teddy Roosevelt. He linked up the world with the Panama Canal. Oh, well, yeah. He fought for the common working man. Okay. According to the National Parks website, Borgleam chose Roosevelt to, quote, represent the development of the United States. Well, see, now I'm about to sound like a defensive ho. Uh-oh.

But, I mean, no, first of all, Teddy Roosevelt, great president. I was not shitting on the guy at all. Great guy. We're friends. We've been friends for years. And, you know, perhaps that is true as the stated official reason. What I read said that a big factor was that Gutson personally liked him. And, you know, something we've been learning and trying to promote on this podcast is that two things can be true. So you're right, Kristen. Gutson and Teddy were best buddies.

I don't know that Teddy considered him a best buddy, but anyway, it can be a one-way friendship. You want to hang out later? Busy. Busy being president. Yeah. And also, right before we started recording, somebody said you may have said protractor instead of compass. You know what?

Who's to say with math stuff? That's all disgusting math accessories, and I take no part in it. I can't verify that claim. But I saw it before we started recording, so I figured I'd mention it. That probably was a mistake. I don't know my math paraphernalia very well. Yeah, you're familiar with a calculus. later?

I can write boobs on them. How about an abacus? You lost me. Oh, that's the cool beady thing. Yep. That's right. Cool beady thing. Yep.

Can't use it properly. You're great at describing things. Reverse vacuum was my favorite from last week. Have we gotten any people to weigh in on the reverse vacuum? Any doctors saying, yeah, that's a cure for cancer for sure? No, actually, PSA, please don't stick a blower or air compressor up your butt. What about a vacuum if you're constipated?

Kristen? This podcast is disgusting. I don't want us to get sued by some listener who said, Kristen Caruso told me stick a vacuum up my butt and turn it on. Dr. Christenkeruso instructed me to use this Dyson in disgusting ways. Yeah, and we can't, we can't be getting sued, okay? Okay, okay. Anyway, this concludes another exciting segment of...

Mistakes of Shoe! So powerful. Okay. I think that's all we got. Let's dive into the episode. Previously, on an old-timey podcast. Gutson Borglum and his merry band of followers were determined to carve giant faces onto Mount Rushmore, and they didn't let anything stop them.

Not environmentalists, not penny pinchers, and certainly not local Native Americans who consider the Black Hills, and specifically the Six Grandfather's Mountain, aka Mount Rushmore, to be sacred and stolen ground. Oh, well, Gutson and his boys pushed forward, and the project got started, thanks in part two, lying about how much the project would cost, manipulating President Calvin Coolidge, and a dogged determination to get this thing done. And after a few years, George Washington's face was damn near complete. The work had taken longer than Gutson initially promised, but that didn't matter. Thanks to Gutson's limitless imagination and imaginary budget, the project was always in flux.

And now, with the party to celebrate George Washington's big granite face just a few months away, Gutson decided to drum up publicity by sharing the first two paragraphs of Calvin Coolidge's 500-word history of the United States with the world. The way Gutson envisioned it, those 500 words would live on forever, on an entablature, a 120 feet tall and 80 feet wide, right there on Mount Rushmore. But when those first two paragraphs hit the national media, everyone laughed. Everyone, that is, except Calvin Coolidge, he'd given Gutson permission to make minor edits to his piece, but Gutson had given it an extreme makeover. So, with the George Washington celebration just a few months away, Gutson found himself in hot water. In this week's episode, Mount Rushmore National Memorial gets done. Here we got it.

Norm, you look excited. I do. I also like when I do my previously ons, sometimes you nod. And it's really sweet. It's like you're saying, yeah, I remember that. I remember that too. I don't want to interrupt you doing your previously on segment. So yes, I just nod like, yes. And to the listeners, if you're not nodding along, what are you doing with your life? Yeah, please don't laugh. Please don't comment. The previously on section is for nodding only. Yeah, please don't interrupt while Kristen's talking. Twas the spring of 1930, and former president Calvin Coolidge was very annoyed.

Gutsen Borglum had changed what he'd written, without permission. Well, he gave him permission to do minor edits. Yes, minor. But it sounds like he rewrote the whole thing. Well, the point is, Norm, the media was slam Duncan on Calvin for being a bad writer. Slam Duncan. Slam Duncan. Slam Duncan the Funkin.

Norman, are you ready to compare and contrast what Calvin Coolidge actually wrote with what Gutson Borglam said he wrote? Oh, yeah, I love everything that Gutson Borglum does, so let's hear it. Wonderful. First off, before I tell you what was said, the thing you have to know is that the entablature was going to be a timeline of U.S. history. and Gutson had just shared the first two timeline events with the media. So these are the first two paragraphs. Why are you looking at me like that? A timeline?

Yeah. Okay. So it's not like a narrative or anything. No, it's not like a big block of text. It's a timeline. You've seen a timeline before, have you? Yeah, I just, the way you described it, I didn't think it was going to be a timeline. That's all.

Hmm. Well, okay. Here we go. Here's what Calvin wrote. The Declaration of Independence. The Eternal Right. to seek happiness through self-government and the divine duty to defend that right at any sacrifice. It's pretty good.

Okay. Yeah. Did he put the right date in there, 1776? His version doesn't have a date on it. I wonder if he thought the date would be off to the side. Okay. Would you like to hear what Gutson wrote? Yeah.

What did he put? In the year of our Lord 1776, the people declared the eternal... right to seek happiness, self-government, and the divine duty to defend that right at any sacrifice. Norm, you had a real strong reaction to in the year of our Lord. That's how all years should start. Well, if it's going to be a timeline, like you said, you just put the date and then you put what happened. You don't have to reiterate the date. No, you always, hey, what are you doing Saturday? Well, in the year of our Lord, August 19th, you know, blah, blah, blah.

That's just how you do it. That's how a normal person talks, okay? No. Also, there's no established religion in the United States, so saying in the year of our Lord. Okay, well, I can see you're more of a Calvin fan. How about this next paragraph? This one's for the Constitution.

Okay. Here's what Calvin wrote. The Constitution, Charter of perpetual union of free people of sovereign states establishing a government of limited powers under an independent president, Congress, and court, charged to provide security for all citizens in their enjoyment of liberty, equality, and justice under the law. Okay. A little fantasy land there, but sure. Also kind of a mouthful. Yeah, a lot of words.

No periods. He uses some M-Dashes. Anyway, that's Calvin's. You ready for Getson's version? Yeah, let's hear it. In 1787, assembled in... Oh, you're already a hater! You're an agent of evil, Norm.

That's what you are. I'll start again. In 1787, assembled in convention, they made a charter of perpetual union for free people of sovereign states establishing a government of limited powers under an independent president, Congress, and court charged to provide security for all citizens in their enjoyment of liberty, equality, and justice. He's never heard of a period either.

You know who they should have read this stuff? The people who are going to actually carve the shit into the mountain. What do you mean? That is so wordy. Like, okay, we want you to write this into the mountain. I would be so annoyed because, like, text is a lot different than, like, a person. portrait of a person. Sure.

You want the text to line up, and you want the letters to kind of look the same. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so the more letters you have... I disagree with you, Norm. Let's do a new fun font for this next part of the timeline. Comic Sans.

I'm going to do all lowercase, because in the 60s, we were casual. You know what? Make this part about the Constitution. Write it in wingdings. Remember wingdings? Those were fun. Who could forget? And then, you know, how do you know, how

do we Rosetta Stone that? Well, we'll have to think on it. So anyway, what'd you think? Bad. Yeah, I think they both kind of suck, honestly. Gutzons is worse. For the Constitution, yeah, Gutson's is worse. Calvin's is just a little wordy. And again, kind of fantasy land. Independent president, independent Congress. Well, listen. Okay. Listen, Norm, he's not going to be like, Oh, and in parentheses, it didn't always work out that way. We tried. We really did. But sometimes all the time we got it wrong.

Mm-hmm. You know. As George Carlin said, they call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. Oh, ouch. Ouch. Yeah, that's not really the spirit we're trying to embody when we carve giant faces into mountains. I know, I know. We're really going for we're the best.

Everyone else sucks. Yeah. enjoy my entablature. The United States is the best. We stand out above the rest. What? That was our middle school fight song. Really?

I just changed the words. Calvin Coolidge never complained about this publicly, but he absolutely made his thoughts known privately. Who did he complain to? Oh, he complained directly to Gets and Borglum. Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, he wasn't like, you know. Sorry, I thought he was, like, talking to his barber.

I'm sure he did. He was pretty pissed. He was pretty pissed. But a little too classy to take it public. Classy guy. How did the whole world find out that Gutson Borglum had changed Calvin's words? Calvin! Newspapers?

Sure. Gutson told on himself. Oh. Actually, you were right on it. when he released those two paragraphs and said that Calvin Coolidge wrote them, reporters questioned him. They were like, did Calvin Coolidge really write this? Wait, did Gutson say like, actually, I wrote it?

Isn't it amazing? Man, you're really picking up what this guy's deal is. Eventually, he was like, okay, yeah, I helped. All right, I helped. I made some tweaks. I improved it a bit. And that just kicked up a little shitstorm where all of us. sudden everyone was laughing at Gutson and making the frankly fairly obvious point which is that like

okay if you can change Calvin Coolidge's writing maybe Calvin Coolidge should hop on up on to Mount Rushmore and start doing some carving himself because evidently these skills are interchangeable we can all do whatever now I ask you Norman did this experience humble gutson Did it cause him to reflect on his behavior? I don't play the whole thing. Not really. He was kind of pissed because he'd figured that he'd get away with making whatever edits he wanted to make because he'd assumed that once the press saw what he'd written, they'd love it.

And Calvin Coolidge would be too classy to do anything other than, you know, just go with it because everybody loved it because it's already out there in print. Mm-hmm. In fact, he was so sure that Calvin Coolidge would just go along with his plan that Gutson began carving that edited version onto Mount Rushmore. What? Because he figured that once it was up there, Calvin Coolidge would be such a reasonable guy that he wouldn't make him change it. Shut up. Stop it.

My favorite thing in this series, I feel like it really. happened a lot last week when gutsin would be doing something and you'd be like stop no no i hate you no you know you know that's so gutsin that's my new phrase yeah let me carve it into the mountain so we can't change it yeah what a crazy guy not entirely wrong though in a way because yeah once you carve it into a mountain, it's like, well, okay, I guess I'm not going to fight you on it. I don't know. No, you just take some putty and you stick it in there and you cover it up. Uh-huh. Yeah, maybe some drywall joint compound and just smear it on there.

A lot of good ideas. Paint it to look like a rock, you know. Hope nobody steps on it. Get some plaster. You know, there's ways to cover up his big mistakes. What do you think Calvin Coolidge did? He's a classy guy. I don't know. What did Calvin Coolidge do? He just withdrew from the assignment.

Yeah, he was just like, you know what? You know what? I don't want to go. That is exactly what I would do. Yeah. He was just like, you know, I don't need to go anywhere near Guts and Borglam again for the rest of my life. And take my name off of this and anything to do with it. So with that little dust up kind of behind him, it was time for the George Washington dedication ceremony.

And oh, what a ceremony at war. There was a lot of fanfare. Guts and Borgland promised the crowd that in just four years, Norman, four years. Four years. Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, and Lincoln would be fully sculpted down to the waistline. That's what you had envisioned all along. Four years. What year is it?

I believe it's 1931, I think. Maybe 1930. I can't quite remember. Good luck. Oh, okay. In four, he thinks he's going to be done in four years? Who knows what he asked? actually thought versus what came out of his mouth.

But he's saying four years. That's so gutsin. Very confidently. A lot of people showed up to this event. People were excited. Tourists were into it. It made the front page of the New York Times. It was fabulous.

But maybe a little too fabulous. Turns out Gutson spent so much money on that ceremony that by the end of the month, they were almost out of money. And things were about to get worse. Oh, damn it. Because Thomas Jefferson's face wasn't turning out quite how they'd hoped. No? No.

Was it looking a little off? Was it looking more like Steve Bouchemmy than Thomas Jefferson? It looked exactly like Steve Bouchemmy. And they thought, we'll keep it. But we're also going to do Thomas Jefferson on the other side. So the reasons for this are a little hard to say because a few different reasons have been given for why this went so wrong. Okay. You ready for the official story?

Yeah, let's hear it. Okay, the official story is that the crew worked and worked and worked and worked on Thomas Jefferson's face for months. And when the time came to start doing more detailed work, they realized, oh, no, the stone is too crumbly. It won't work. We have to start over on a different section of the mountain. This just won't work. And so they had to do the heartbreaking thing of blasting off 18 months of work off the mountain and starting over in a different section.

That's the official story. Another version is that Gutson went away to Poland to unveil a statue of Woodrow Wilson. And when he... Huh? A statue of Woodrow Wilson in Poland? Yeah, I know. I guess it's a World War I Memorial thing. I don't know.

Remember when we went to Puerto Rico and there was a statue of Abraham Lincoln? I do remember that. That was interesting. It was. Yeah. He was in like a school yard or something. You are right. And we have a statue in Kansas City of Winston Churchill.

But it's done at like three-fourth scale, which I always find a little creepy. It's not, you need a life-size Winston Churchill. I need life-size or bigger. And also, if you're going to do three-fourths, put him up on a little podium, you know? How about... Give him a rock to stand on. How about a massive Winston Churchill?

Like bigger than the tallest skyscraper. He's just looming over Kansas City. He's standing over the World War I Museum. Yeah. A lot of good ideas. Yeah. So he goes to unveil his Woodrow Wilson statue. Okay.

Comes back. What the heck? You carved way too deep. into this Thomas Jefferson face area of the mountain. Oh my God, it's ruined. Now we have to move Thomas Jefferson's face to another part of the mountain. Yeah, he had bad acne. We got to get those, got to get those, pot marks in there.

Then there's another version of the story, and it goes like this. According to Gutson's original models for Mount Rushmore, Thomas Jefferson was supposed to be to George Washington's immediate, left. And Abraham Lincoln was supposed to be to the immediate right. And I'm using the word immediate because he designed the monument so that the presidents would appear very close together with George Washington kind of out in front. There was very little breathing room between the boys. No room for the Holy Spirit between Washington and Jefferson. Looked like Washington might be the little spoon. Looked like our most iconic presidents were doing butt stuff to each of.

Whoa. Mount Rushmore. More like Mount Washington and Rushmore, you're cock in his butt. Did you make that up? Who else would make that up? I didn't know if you got it from like a joke book or something. A joke book. Yeah, like a hundred funny jokes. Oddly specific joke book for when you're telling a story about Guts and Borglems' original plans for Mount Rushmore. Yeah. I can't believe it was out of print. I paid so much. much money on eBay.

Real niche book. So it looked like the presidents were having. Sexy times. Yes, that's exactly right. Actually, I fudged up. Mistakes a shame. Man, a mistake during the episode. I meant to bring the picture up here with me.

I'm going to run downstairs and grab it so you can see this. Oh. Well, can't we just show it? Can you? I want you to see this right now. I don't know that this is on the Internet. I know it's in a book that I have. Oh, very cool.

It's too hot for the internet. Very sexy. It's just guts and Borglam nude. Prepare to be scandalized. Yeah, this is like that scene in the movie ghost when they're making pottery, but with the presidents. Oh man, and the model on the right is also very good. It looks like Lincoln is peeking over Jefferson's shoulder. Yeah, like.

What's going on over here? Wow. Yeah. We'll show these on the video version, $10 level, folks. Yeah. So if you want to understand that hilarious joke, not from a joke book, Mount Rushmore, more like Mount Washington and Rushmore of your cock in his mouth. I laughed harder than you did at my own joke. Classy.

Yep. Intellectual. Uh-huh. Brilliant. Three ways I would describe. an old-timey podcast. How about three words? What's wrong with three ways?

There's nothing wrong with a three-way. That's clearly what was happening between Jefferson, Lincoln, and Washington right there. Ha! Okay. Maybe no one in the studio had the nerve to tell Gutson that his model for Mount Rushmore was giving them tingles in their swimsuit area. Uh-huh. Because it is true that the crew worked and worked and worked on Thomas Jefferson's face and apparently it was the random tourists who were, you know, coming to see it and were like excited to see these guys work.

And they were like, wait, so they're adding the first ladies to the monument? Because their logic was, well, who else would be Big Spoon in George Washington besides Martha? It would be pretty awesome if Mount Rushmore was like gay president. fan fiction. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah, but. Did they leave little feedback cards?

They're like, it looks like Thomas Jefferson is pounded ass on George Washington. The story is that, you know, obviously, they're just kind of chisling out of face. So they don't, the tourists don't know. They're looking at Thomas Jefferson.

They are thinking, obviously, if they're going to be this close, that is his wife. So they thought it was Martha Washington? Yeah, they thought it was Martha Washington. That's the story. That's the story. Yeah, but then Lincoln appears with his beard and they're like, well, wait a minute.

Hang on a second. And we got a three way here. Well, there were rumors about Lincoln. Unsubstantiated. All right, fine. Not that there's anything wrong with that. All right. Calm down.

So, you know, it's hard to say which story is true, just like it's hard to say whether what Thomas Jefferson was doing was truly consensual. You know, we'd like to think it was, but we just don't know. Okay. All right. But either way. You should know. That's the end of my jokes. Either way. You've been a great audience, folks. Honestly, when I saw those pictures, I lit up inside, okay? It brought me so much joy. I'm just, I can envision you cackling in your office looking at those pictures. Uh-huh. And normally, this is-cug-y-clacking away. This is what I do for a living. Yeah, it is fun.

Either way, you know, whichever story you choose to believe, I obviously am choosing to believe the Martha Washington story. You should know that they had to blast off 18 months of work off the mountain. Oh, I definitely believe that story, too. I do too. All you have to do is see those original models and be like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, and it's, that's so guts and it's like, it lines up perfectly with. Everything else he's done in his life.

Yeah, he's so arrogant. He makes these models. And I'm sure it's one of those situations where nobody wants to tell him. And really, no one can tell him. He has to hear it from the randos and a lot of randos. And then, oh, shit, I've got to totally change this. But also blame other people. Yes.

Because I can't admit that my model was, you know, wrong. Absolutely. I'll never look at Mount Rushmore the same again after this series. I'll tell you that. So, you know, they did blast a bunch of work off the mountain, and that's how we got the less intimate monument that stands there today. It was a huge setback, demoralizing. It amounted to a lot of wasted money.

Yeah. By the end of the year, they were in the red. They tried to fundraise, but, wow, it was tough. What about those commemorative coins? Oh, yeah, that never happens. Oh, darn. Yeah. It was such a great original idea, don't you agree? Yeah.

You know, the 20s had been roaring, but the 30s, not so much. Yeah, something happened. It was the Great Depression. Hmm. Also the just... Shouldn't you sing that? Oh. It was the great depression.

Depression. She doesn't sound as bad when you sing it. If they just sung it, they would have been fine. Also, the dust was... bowl was disgusting. It was ruining everything. Crops were dying. People were dying. It all sucked. If people had money to spare, they definitely weren't donating it to the dudes who put faces on mountains. Yeah, seems like one of those, what's the word I'm thinking of? I don't know.

Swimsuit. No, cut all that. Avocado. Just forget it. Hardware store. No. You're just naming random things now. I will keep going until I hit the right one. Yeah, my brain is like fried right now. I can't think of anything.

Is it because it's an after dark episode? We're recording at night. I don't know. Is your crystal light mixed up well or are you just dealing with water? My peach mango is doing its job. Okay. All right. Fair enough.

So they did try some fundraisers. Some efforts went better than others. My personal favorite was a fundraiser called the School Children's Fund. Oh. So the idea was that they'd get South Dakota public schools to spend a week teaching all about history and art and good citizenship all through the lens of Mount Rushmore. Okay. And the kids could write essays, make posters. And really, most importantly, was that all the little kids they needed to donate a dime.

Okay, that's all just a dime. And all the high school kids, they would be asked to donate a quarter. All right? They're taking money from the kids. Not much, but also yes. And they were really banking on this money because if everyone just did what they were told, they would get 10 grand. And adjusted for inflation, that's a little under 200K.

That was a good amount of money. They really needed it. Sounds like socialism to me. Well, if that's how you feel you might be relieved to know that the school children's fund raised a lot of awareness. I think we all learned a lot also. It only netted about $1,700. I was going to guess $11.

But, you know, I was close. So, yeah, times were tight. In 1932, the work on Mount Rushmore just stopped completely. Yeah, no one's getting paid. Right. For a while, it looked like the Mount Rushmore National Monument would turn out just like Gutson's work on the Stone Mountain Confederate Monument. Just a big, nasty scribble on what had a little. once been a beautiful natural mountain.

Mm-hmm. But Gutson couldn't let that happen, Norm. He hit up every VIP he could think of. He sent notes to the Duke of Windsor like, hey, things are going great at Mount Rushmore. Let me know if you want to send money. Okay, just let me know. Maybe I can put your face on there.

Hey, William Randolph Hearst. Have you Hearst of this great idea to send me some money? In the end, it was Senator Peter Norbeck who really saved. this thing. The government started handing out relief money, and he secured about $100,000 to save the jobs on Mount Rushmore, which meant that after a year and a half of zero work being done, they were able to start up again. But Senator Norbeck knew that the bailout wasn't like a long-term solution to what was turning into a very lengthy, very expensive endeavor. Yeah. So he talked President Roosevelt into putting Mount Rushmore under the National Park Service.

That was a big deal. It meant that they'd likely have more money coming in, you know, more federal buy-in, all that stuff. Sure. And it also meant that they'd have more oversight. But guess who hated oversight? That's so gutsin. It's so gutsin.

That's so gutton. That's beautiful. Yeah, that's just the theme song, did that's so Raven. Yeah, we all knew. Oh, okay. Well, I don't know. I know how you feel about Disney, so. Okay, calm down, sir.

I'm just a grown woman, you know. Yeah, but, you know, you met me when I was 12 and you didn't have a problem with it, so. All right, that's enough. You showed me all these Disney movies. Stop. That's disgusting. We were both grown adults. You're like, look, I've got Aladdin on the Black Diamond VHS version. Black Diamond VHS? What are you talking about?

Yeah, there's like a collector's VHS. I think it's called the Black Diamond version. Please don't Google that. No one cares. I care. God. Well, it's one of those things where everyone thinks the Black Diamond VHS Disney tapes are worth like a billion million dollars. But everyone, really?

Everyone has them. Everyone, yeah. Well, it's like one of those BuzzFeed articles that's like, if you have a Black Diamond Disney tape, it could be worth thousands. Please be nice to BuzzFeed. All the research I did for this entire script came from BuzzFeed. Oh, really? No. Yeah, so the 30s were a rough time for Gutson Borglum and also for anyone who had to be around Gutson Borglum. When he'd first come to South Dakota, he'd done a great job, charming people. But by the mid-30s, his charm had worn thin. He developed a bad reputation locally. He thought he was above paying bills, so, you know, he just didn't.

Yeah. He loved seeing movies, so he'd just go into the theater. Yeah, and did not buy a ticket. No. Yeah. When he went to get gas for his vehicle, he would be livid when he didn't get it for free. Oh, my God. What the hell?

Also same with groceries. What? You want me to pay? Do you know who I am? Do you know who I am? He went to the grocery store and just took food and left? He expected to not have to pay because... Why?

Because... Oh! I'll tell you, why? Why, the way he saw it, he was the man responsible for bringing what would eventually be billions of dollars to the Black Hills. So if he wanted to see a movie or get some gas or get some turnips or whatever, it would be outrageous to make him pay for any of that. I'm starting to think you don't understand how important and cool he was. If you think I'm going to pay for this whatcha ma' call it there, you are crazy. You know who I am?

He was equally ridiculous regarding what he expected to be paid for his work on Mount Rushmore. He'd suddenly expect reimbursement for a random expense. He'd claimed that he'd only been paid a certain amount when the records showed that he'd been paid, you know, a bigger amount. So he was lying. Is it a lie, if you believe it? It's true. It's wisdom from George Costanza. Uh-huh. He'd misremember financial deals, always in a way that, you know, would end with him getting more money.

Sure, yeah. The truth was that Gutson Borkland made a lot of money. For example, in 1933, you know, in the midst of the Great Depression, he made 16 grand off of his work on Mount Rushmore. Inflation? About $390,000. That's pretty damn good during the Great Depression. Yeah, so I will say it's possible that that's a little low for someone of his skill level, but this was not his only job. He was off doing other stuff, you know.

And even if it's a little low for his skill level, it's still way more than enough to live on. I'd say so. Well, yeah, I'd say so. He could buy like five showers with that money. Think of all the showers. He could hop from shower to shower. Like I said, you could carve little faces in each shower. Whose face would you want carved into our shower, Norman?

I'd probably just get Tiffany New York Pollard carved into my shower. That's fair. Yeah, I think that'd be pretty cool. What if I got Shigiru Miyamoto? Carved into my shower. The CEO of Nintendo? No, he wasn't the CEO, wasn't it? He's not the CEO, but he created Mario.

Oh, God. These are all terrible ideas. They are. love the combo really expresses your diverse interests. Yeah, so, you know, it's a corner shower. Sure. So one wall, Shigeru Miyamoto, and then the other one is Tiffany New York Pollard. Uh-huh.

Two people that I am big fans of. Sure. Yeah. Two people that have touched you greatly and that you want to touch you greatly. Bingo. Mm-hmm. So we agree that this is more than enough to live on for Gutson. But Gutson didn't want to just live.

He wanted to live lavishly. He drove around in a chauffeered Cadillac. He traveled a ton. He whined and dined VIPs. He spent extravagantly. And as a result, creditors hounded him. He was threatened with foreclosure. Mm-hmm.

Was he writing off his lunches as business expenses for the National Park Service? You want him to pay for lunch? Do you know what he's doing for this city? You ungrateful bitch. What? Gutson didn't handle the pressure well. He became harder and harder to work with and work for. And just like in Stone Mountain,

Gutson butted heads with the group that was in charge of the monument. He wanted free reign and free money. But the dudes on the Rushmore Commission had the nerve to tell him, know sometimes. And if you're wondering how he handled that, you should know that Gutson... I'm not wondering, actually. I know exactly how he handled this. If you were to publicly say something mean about a group that was in charge of an endeavor, what would you say about him? Let's see if you can match Gutson's energy here. Incompetent. Oh, okay. Micromanagers. Okay. Very good, Norm. Here's what he says.

said, he accused them of being, quote, the most useless and uninformed political body that ever attempted anything. Yeah, in confidences. Yeah. You look so uncomfortable. How old is Gutson? Oh, gosh, at this point, okay, so he was... I feel like I'm starting to count down for how much time we have left with Gutson. Oh, rude. He's in his 60s now. A guy named John Boland was the president of the Rushmore Commission. John Boland? Yeah, what? I don't know who that is.

Oh, you ass! I was like, wow, Norm's about to drop some knowledge! No, he is not. He was the one who was ultimately in charge of the finances, because he's the president of the commission. John Boland, perfectly normal, respectable guy, but because he was the one who most often had to tell Gutson what he didn't want to hear, he became Gutson's arch nemesis. Yeah.

You're dead to me. You're the worst. I mean, ridiculous. Hmm. You know, we talked about how Gutson and Adolf Hitler had very similar. Oh, my God. Mannerisms and their personalities very similar. This is another example.

You know, Hitler hated hearing bad news. You know, honestly, I've been thinking this whole time, like, it's such a shame that this mountain got carved up. But honestly, it's like, someone like this, yeah, I guess give them a mountain and, like, keep them busy. I don't know. Imagine if Adolf Hitler had had just a giant canvas the size of Canada and, you know, send him to work on that. Hitler, we're giving you the Bavarian Alps and you can carve whatever you want into it. I don't really want Hitler carving into mountains. It's better than like, hmm, who am I going to blame for all my problems? Let's kill them all, you know?

I'm just imagining what he would carve into that mountain. I feel like it'd be really bad. I got a hunch. Just a hunch. Just a feeling. Just a feeling. I'm not sure. I don't know what it is about this Adolf Hitler fella. I've heard he's bad.

Yeah. By the way, I am not saying Gutson Borglam is Adolf Hitler. I'm just saying some of their personality traits are similar. That's all. Yeah. I mean, ridiculous, egotistical, super racist. I mean, there's similar stuff here. Yeah.

So Gutson Borglam and John Boland. are, you know, arch nemeses, whatever. The irony is that John Boland was also the director of the first national bank, this local bank. And he sometimes made personal loans to Gutson just to help Gutson out of his many jams that he got himself into. Ooh, don't bite the hand that feeds you, Gutson. Right? And rather than be grateful, Gutson just regularly accused Jusson. John of withholding some of his sculpting fees and of only buying equipment for the Rushmore job from his friends and of sabotaging the monument by stopping him from hiring good workers.

These accusations went on for years. And the sad part is that none of it actually appears to have been true. You know, when he made these accusations against the Stone Mountain people, like he was a little right on some of this stuff. He was not right here. In fact, the National Park Service later audited the Rushmore Commission because it just seemed so sketchy and Gutson seemed so certain. Yeah. And they found that John Boland had done everything by the book. Yeah, of course.

He'd paid Gutson exactly what he was owed. There was no funny business. Basically, if Gutson's upset with somebody, they're probably right, and Gutson's wrong. Yeah, you just can't listen to this guy. You just have to pay him no mind. Yep. But he'll just get louder or something. I don't know.

I mean, yeah, the dude would, will go to the press. Yeah. If you upset him. Mm-hmm. Or he feels like you're looking at him crossways. Yes. You know? John dealt with a lot of unfair accusations.

And so did some of the other guys who were hoping to see this monument to completion. They'd known that Gutson wouldn't be easy to deal with, but as the years were on, they became exhausted. John Boland thought about just quitting, and he shared that thought with Senator Peter Norbeck. And Peter was like, dude, I've been there. It doesn't get better. Can't they just buy the rights to the art from Gutson and then fire them? Well, the last time anyone tried to just go off of his old plans, he shoved the models off a mountain and destroyed them. And he went to the media and he actually gained a lot of sympathy. Yeah, I remember when Gutson ran up the jelly bean and tough spot to be in.

I mean, that's the thing about letting someone do something this big. and this weird is like, okay, if you fire Gutson Borglum, you know, seven years into a project, who's going to take over? Now, it could be argued that you could find people. Yeah. But, I mean, are they going to be a big weirdo too? Probably. The job is to sculpt a mountain. Not too many people can do that. Peter Norbeck's kind of trying to smooth things over. At one point, after one of Gutson's rants, the senator wrote a letter to Gutson saying, look, I have never known John Boland to do anything dishonorable. But if he has, present the evidence. Show me the evidence.

Show it to the board. But if you don't have evidence, stop making wild accusations. Yeah. Well, he doesn't have any evidence. And then, Senator Norbeck, who by this point was a few years into his battle with cancer, and who had been so instrumental in getting the funding for Mount Rushmore again and again told Gutson, you know, lately I've been suspecting that you will do something to prevent the completion of this monument. And you'll blame it on politicians and the media will eat it up and the public will eat it up even though it won't be true.

Yeah. Get his ass. Senator Norbeck. He wrapped up the letter with this. quote, I have made over seven years of effort in this work. It has been a heavy drain on my strength and my purse. It keeps getting worse. Your letter made me sick and I am trying to get well. Man. Yeah.

Did that letter change Gutson's mind? No. But that was where, do you remember there was a time last week when I was like, I have to stop. I have to stop reading about him. Yeah. This was it. It was just disgusting to me. The other thing that I didn't even include here is these men who he's accusing of underpaying him and all that stuff.

I mean, none of these guys were like without money, but he was making way more than them. And yet they were helping bail him out and like trying to make him. make this work. Gutson, is it fair to say that he's a narcissist? Oh, my God. If he's not, then who is? Yes. Narcissists don't think about how their actions will affect other people.

Yeah, they think about how, I think he was very focused on how he was perceived by the public. So he wanted everyone to love him, everyone to admire him, everyone to appreciate what he was doing. but in those actual day-to-day real relationships, he treated people badly. He made unfair accusations. And I honestly think I could be wrong. No, I'm about to say something wrong.

I was about to say, I bet you he didn't even know he was lying. But he did. He could turn it on and off. Yeah, he cared about himself and he would lie to get what he wanted. Yeah. Yeah. He knew he was lying. And he didn't care.

So, Senator Norbeck knew Gutson very well. He had good instincts about what might happen. Mount Rushmore very easily could have become a partially finished abandoned monument. But there are a few reasons why that didn't happen. A big one is Gutson's son, Lincoln Borglum. A little Lincoln. Yeah. Lincoln had been a teenager when the work on Mount Rushmore began. He'd grown up working on the monument.

and in 1933 Lincoln found himself at a turning point. He had been accepted to the University of Virginia, where he planned to study engineering. But he really liked working on Mount Rushmore, and he could see that he was needed there. His dad was often gone out on other assignments, and sometimes when he was on site, Gutson would ruffle feathers.

But Lincoln had a way of smoothing his dad's rough edges. and so he decided to temporarily delay college so that he could work on Mount Rushmore full-time. Cool. The temporary delay ended up being permanent, by the way. That's okay. Lincoln became integral to the work on Mount Rushmore. He became a leader. He was quiet.

He was kind. And he knew how to deal with difficult personalities, which I imagine you would as a child of Gutsonmore. Exactly. He is a battle. hardened veteran of Gutson Borglum. Yeah. And the rowdy, you know, rough housing crew came to really like him and respect him. And probably because he also respected them.

Absolutely. But as Lincoln stepped up to the challenge, Gutson himself became more of a challenge. Oh, God. Because in addition to throwing fits about money and bureaucratic red tape, he was also adding to the monument. Yay. Now I want to put hats on them. So we're going to airlift in

more mountains and place them, big stones, place them on top of their heads. More sacred mountains, please. He decided that in addition to sculpting the four presidents down to the waist, the monument needed a hall of records. Yeah, okay. Didn't he do this?

He wanted this on Stone Mountain, too, right? Yeah, it's okay. You know what? I wanted pizza last week. I wanted it again this week. What's the problem, Norm? One is much more easily attainable than the other, Kristen. That's the problem. The way he saw it, the Hall of Records would be deep in the mountain, and it'd contain all the important American artifacts. The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, a DVD box set of the Jersey Shore. Oh, gay crazy. Gay wild. Get crazy. No, I don't think it's a good idea to store the Declaration of Independence inside of a mountain.

Why not, hater? Doesn't seem like a safe place. Agent of a... What? Not a safe place. Yeah. Is it climate controlled in there? Probably, yeah.

It's super safe. I don't think so. You know, behind some bruns. What if the mountain collapses? Collapses! Yeah, they've been dynamiting it for building these faces in it. Yeah, I have some foundation problems. Nothing at two by four won't fix.

Yeah, yeah, let's make sure it's pressure treated, you know, could get moist. Norm, you seem as exhausted as Senator Peter Norbert. I'm exhausted, just hearing about Gutson Borgle. I can't imagine working for this man. No. And technically these guys didn't even work for him, but I mean, Yeah, he's the guy in charge, though. He's like...

Well, no, technically no, and that was part of what made guts... But he thinks he's in charge. Well, yeah, he always thinks he's in charge. Yes, it's terrible. If you can calm down about the Hall of Records, which is an amazing idea, and I'll thank you to shut up about it. Also, we've got to do that entablature. Don't forget about the entablature.

Because how could you have the monument without the 500-word history of the United States? We all agree this is a necessary idea, right? Yeah, you have to have it. Gutson said that without it, it'd be like sending a letter without putting the address on it. No. Yes. Yes.

Norm, do I need to remind you again that hundreds of thousands of years from now, aliens are going to come down. They're going to go directly to Mount Rushmore. They're going to see the faces and be like, what's the deal? And they're going to look for an entablature but find none. And they'll be so confuddled by the whole thing. It'll be just like the heads at Easter Island. Do you want that kind of disaster on your hands? Imagine if they saw the original idea, and they're like, oh, this was some very sexual civilization.

Looks like the leaders were all having sex with each other. Very hot, very sexy. Sexy times. If you want me to press a button, I'll do it, Kristen. You don't have to say sexy times. I can just press it. I absolutely did not encourage you. to press a button that has my dad saying sexy times.

Remix. Sexy. No. Stop. Stop. Oh, God. You're terrible. Next time we're around your parents, I'm going to record some shit, and you're

going to be devastated. That would actually be funny. Oh, I think we could get your mom saying some wonderful stuff. Oh, remember when I got her with that joke? Mount Rushmore, more like Mount Washington. No. And Rushmore of his cock in your butt? Yeah.

No. was great. She picked us up from the airport and the whole car ride home. I was just like, oh man, it's great to be back on the East Coast, but you know, it kind of smells like Up Dog. But no reaction. And then finally we got back to the house, walk in the door and I go, man, it smells like Up Dog in here. And my mom finally goes, what's Up Dog? And I was like, not much. What's up with you? It was great. It was really wonderful. And for those wondering, it was an hour-long drive from the airport to Norm's parents' house. I was trying to get her the whole ride home.

They said it couldn't be done. And then I tried to get my sister. Yeah, but she got offended. She had just bought a brand new car. And she was like, let me show you the car. So I get in the car. And I'm like, oh, this is a really sweet car. But, you know, it kind of smells like Up Dog.

And she just goes, I don't know what that is. She was like, what is that? It's a new car. How could it smell like that? She was like offended that I thought it smelled like this mystical updog scent. Anyway. In conclusion, yes, please bring a microphone when we visit my parents next and record them saying stuff. Norm, are you trying to distract me from telling you more about Gutson Borglum and his hilarious antics?

No, I'm being self-conscious about how long my tangents go on and I don't want to upset any listeners. So I'm like, okay, let's continue. Oh, you're trying to please everyone. That's right. As a true non-threatening boy. In that original model. That's right.

I've got news for you, Norm, we can't please everyone all at once. Man. It's my dream, though. I know. To please literally everything. Everything? Oh, my God.

Please stop, sir. Anyway, so we got to do the entablature, right? We all agree. And also, you know, Calvin Coolidge had really effed up the first attempt. I know there's no entablisher. I know. I've seen pictures. They never ended up making it.

Well, here's the thing. That was Calvin Coolidge's fault, right? Because he did such a bad job. Yeah, because he doesn't know anything about history. By 1933, Norm, Calvin Coolidge was dead. So Gutson waited a year because, you know, respect. And then he went to William Randolph Hearst with a request. It's like, hey, I've got a great idea.

We need someone to write a 500-word history of the United States. And obviously Calvin whipped it real bad, rest in peace. So could you please publicize a contest and then we'll pick a winner and we'll carve the winning essay onto Mount Rushmore. Everyone, Norm looks like he wants to rip my face off. And William Randolph Hurst was like, I love it. I will publicize the contest in all of my papers. And we can have an overall winner and we can also have winners in different age groups and I'll give out scholarships. And there will be money for the winners.

it seemed like such a great idea. Yes. Free publicity and really kind of a cool kind of democratic way to figure out what to put up there on the old entablature. Uh-huh. There was just one problem. What's that, Kristen? The people who sat on the Rushmore Commission only found out about this idea after Gutson had already set it up with William Randolph Hurst. Oh, I'm shocked.

And they were like, whoa. Oh, this is super disrespectful. Calvin Coolidge was kind of the reason the monument was even able to get started. Uh, yeah. And that law that granted federal matching funds to the monument stipulated that Calvin Coolidge would be the one to write that message. And now he's dead. So the commission was kind of worried about optics, but they were also worried about

whether it was even legal to have anyone other than Calvin Coolidge write that 500-word history. Yeah. Even with him now dead, couldn't they get in some sort of trouble? Well, if they weekend at Bernie's him. They prop up Calvin Coolidge and they put a pen in his hand. You know, Norm, I don't mean to shoot down that idea. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just write something up and be like, oh, Calvin wrote this. Oh, I found this in his nightstand.

I mean, sure, we could dig. him up and oh god i like that idea which idea weekend at bernie's calum coolidge well we'll let the listeners decide which one we should do because we're definitely doing it so senator norbeck was like i want no part in this this is ridiculous and the other guys on the commission tried to stop the contest from happening but then the contest got announced in all of the hurst newspapers and you know there wasn't much they could do so they decided to just Just shut up and hope that no one ever called them out for breaking the law, the law that made this whole thing possible. Did anyone call them out?

Well, how about you keep your pants on or your shorts on in this case? I know. I'm sorry I'm wearing shorts. It's okay. It's disgusting. People are allowed to wear shorts as long as they're not, you know, in like leadership roles, I say. Oh, yeah, we've talked about this. I feel very strongly about it.

Imagine if Mount Rushmore had, you know, instead of down to the waist, which we all know they accomplished that goal. What about down to the knees? And the knees are bare because they're wearing shorts. It ended with these little bulging kneecaps. That would be the weirdest sign. It'd be so weird. So strange. So against the Rushmore Commission's better judgment, there was now a nationwide contest to write a document that would be etched into Mount Rushmore.

The contest was ridiculously popular. Tons and tons of people wrote essays with the hope that their essay would be carved into stone forever. Yeah, you'd get so many entries. Yeah, it's so cool. Why not give it a shot? An estimated 100,000 entries came in and were reviewed by a prestigious panel of judges. I would hate to have to read all those entries. No, it's easy.

It is? Here's the thing. You don't have to read an entire piece of writing to know whether it's any good. You can weed out a lot. I know. That's why it would be tough because you have to just read so many terrible entries. Oh, I see. I see what you mean.

Yeah. The panel included. President Franklin Roosevelt. First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt. The Secretary of Interior's boatload of senators. I mean, V.I.P. judges. Okay. Okay. So the judges reviewed the entries. They picked the winners. A guy named John Edward Bradley was deemed to be the top winner. The winner of the college scholarship was a guy named William

Berkett. He was from Nebraska and his winning essay was the reason he was able to pay for law school. Did wonderful things for his life. Congrats, William Burkett. But even though the Roosevelt's and all these other important, well-educated judges were impressed with those entries. Gutson wasn't. Oh, God. He read the entries and decided that none of them were good enough. And therefore, he should just write the history himself. No.

Sounds like someone's struggling for power. Shut up, Gutson. In the end, no one really got their wish. The Great Depression was sucking real hard. It looked like we were about to go to war again. Sucking real hard. I mean, you heard it here first. The way do you describe things, it's so beautiful.

Thank you. Thank you. Suckin so hard. You imagine that Ken Burns documentary on the Great Depression. It sucked so hard. Yeah, that's serious. He always uses the same narrator. Yeah, Peter Coyote.

Oh, okay. Well, fine. Flex that knowledge. The Great Depression sucked so hard. What if we could get Peter Coyote to read some of the dumbest things I've said on this podcast? If he's on cameo, let's make it. It was like a vacuum, but it blew. If he's on cameo, we'll make a new Patreon tier and we can make it happen.

Very good. So things are bad. They ended up taking the entablature out of the budget, okay? I know. And if that makes you a little sad. It doesn't. You should know that decades. later William Burkett would get to see his essay on Mount Rushmore, sort of.

Where was it? It's on a plaque near Gutson's studio. I think he paid for it himself, so. He's like, I worked real hard on this essay, and damn it, I want to see it. He sounded kind of cool. He, like, went to California and, like, became very successful and always credited that essay contest thing as, like, the thing that propelled him to where he ended up. Cool.

He actually wanted to be buried at Mount Rushmore, but people were like, calm down, dude. Bairied. Yeah. Yeah, buried. No, calm down. So with the entablature fiasco over, Abraham Lincoln ended up going where the entablature was supposed to go. And around that same time, they figured out where to put Roosevelt's face. And oops, fudge stripes, something went wrong with Thomas Jefferson's lip.

The workers were trying to get it just perfect. and oh no hit a chunk of something and part of Tommy's lip fell off. Do they give him like the Joker scars? No, no, no. What it looked like was that he had the world's biggest cold sore. So they had to fix it. Oh, got to fix that. You know what?

I am going to stand up for all those people that get cold sores. I get cold sores and there's nothing wrong with it. So you know what? If Jefferson had a cold sword, it'd be okay. Yeah. On Mount Rushmore. And everything else he did. would be okay.

Yeah. Oh, really? No, just the cold so. It's because he had cold sores and everyone made fun of them. Yeah, yeah. That's why he did those terrible things. So it's actually everyone else's fault. Interesting.

Hmm. Norm, that's a fascinating perspective and we thank you for being on the show today. Things are coming together, but Gutson's unhappy, and it's everyone else's fault, specifically the Rushmore Commission and that bitch. Carol Baskin. The Tiger Lady. That's... What's that guy's name?

Joe Exotic? Yeah. Yeah. Do you think he's running for president again this year? I don't know. I can't deal with that shit. Here's the thing. You know that like ridiculous, unhinged hatred for one person?

There's no logic in it. That's what I'm sensing here is that level with poor John Boland. Here's the deal. For years, Senator Peter. Norbeck had always been the fixer. He'd been the one to successfully lobby for more funding. He'd been the one to kind of calm Gutson down, you know, as much as anyone could calm him down. But he lost his battle to cancer in 1936. And that meant that Gutson Borglam was now a seven-year-old with no babysitter.

Uh-oh. Soon, Gutson appeared before a congressional committee to complain about everything in regard to Mount Rushmore. He not only has no babysitter. But he just pooped his diaper And he got a hold of the entire carton of Neapolitan ice cream He claimed that he was working with incompetent laborers He was suffering from low pay micromanagement

And politicians who just wanted to interfere Oh, so hard to be him What politicians are interfering with his work? John Boland had been mayor for a while So, you know, he sucks. Also everyone sucks, except for Gutson. I don't know how you're not getting this. I mean... No, I get it. Here's a thing. No one really bothered to fact-check him about any of this,

but, you know, who cares? Gutson spoke so clearly and so confidently, and it all sounded true, and isn't that what matters, really? To some people, sure. He, of course, told them all about his arch nemesis, John Boland, and when John Boland found out that he was being badmouthed in front of a congressional committee, he made a statement. It was a very mature statement. He essentially said, hey, Gutson is an artist, I'm a businessman, sometimes we disagree, but what I want more than anything is to see this monument finished. Great statement. Right. And what did Gutson say? Well, here's what happened. Because it was because of that maturity, that desire to just see this thing finished, that led to John Boland's

resignation and the resignation of damn near everyone else on the Rushmore Commission. Oh, it's a walkout. More like a pushout, too, because it was kind of like they all really wanted to see this thing through to get this thing done. And so they thought, well, if we leave, Gutson, we'll get what. wants and it'll be done? I don't know that it was quite that simple, but I think there were some Congress people who were kind of like, look, this is what he's saying it'll take, and they were just kind of like,

okay, man, fine. Getson was thrilled. With the old Rushmore Commission gone, he got to handpick the new commission himself. Spoiler alert, it didn't end up being the solution to all of his problems. You know, he'd run into trouble with the new commission, too. but that was a problem for another day. For now, this change meant more oversight, yes, but also more money. It seemed that Mount Rushmore National Monument might actually get finished.

But that's not to say it was smooth sailing. I've talked about Gutson, adding things to the monument. But you know what? He wasn't the only one dreaming big. A year earlier in 1937, completely out of nowhere, without even talking to any of the people who were working on the monument, a senator from Kansas and a senator from Illinois introduced a bill to add Susan B. Anthony to Mount Rushmore. Hey, I like it.

This created kind of a hilarious dynamic for some of these Rushmore dudes because they were so pissed. Like, oh, okay, sure, it's so easy. Let's just slap another face on there. Also, are you offering money? Oh, no, no, just suggestions. Cool. Thanks. Yeah, and also, here's more work for you to do.

We know you're almost done, but yeah, why don't you go to add this other face, too? Mm-hmm. Again, no money. Yeah. Nothing. Now, Susan B. Anthony on Mount Rushmore would have been cool. I mean, it depends on how you feel about this kind of stuff. About Susan B. Anthony on...

No. I'm carving faces into mountains. I'm really hating it. Well, I'm just saying, look, it's done. It's already happened. Yeah. You know. Might as well slap Susan up there, too.

Yeah. You know what? Let's just keep adding faces to it as the years go on. You know, Bernie Mac. Throw them up there. You know, that's who I was going to suggest. Yeah, so they're kind of in a pickle. they hated this idea, but they were also kind of afraid to say anything because Eleanor Roosevelt

really loved the idea. A lot of women really loved the idea. So the guys were kind of doing that dude thing of like, okay, so I don't want Susan B. Anthony up there. It's not because I'm sexist. My wife is a woman. So is my mommy. Therefore, I'm not sexist, but also quit telling me what to do with my big rock. In the end, it was kind of a nothing burger. Congress added a little thing to an appropriation bill being like, oh, we're only spending money on the people we're already carving. We're not adding new people. Yeah, let's stick to the script, folks. We've got these four faces.

Let's just get it done and move on with our lives. Yes, the brainstorming session is over. Yeah. Because at this point, they've already started on all four faces, right? Right. Yeah. So, yeah, they would have to just dynamite more mountain off to make another phase. I actually, I thought they had not, like, not started on one of the faces.

and so they're going to like swap one out. No, they're all up there. Okay. Yeah, it's too late. Like the idea of Susan B. Anthony, but yeah, it's too late. So, you know, no new stuff, no new people. But that rule didn't apply to Gutson, right? Gutson sure hoped not, because in 1938, he started blasting.

Oh, no. Who gave him dynamite? He had plenty of dynamite. He blasted a 70-foot-long tunnel. into Mount Rushmore because that's what he envisioned for the Hall of Records. So it's a literal hall. Yes. Just a hallway.

Well, for now, but, you know, the entrance alone would be beautiful. Have inlaid gold and a bald eagle with its wings spread wide. And, you know, down there, down in the tunnel, it would be full of documents that could only be opened by an act of Congress because, you know, it's behind some, like, brass stuff. and there'd be busts everywhere, bust to Benjamin Franklin, Susan B. Anthony, she can go there. Also, Hank Hill, Bernie Mac.

Who do you want? Who do you want? We can put them all in there. There's plenty of room. Where is the Dippendots kiosk? That's what I want to know. Believe me, there will be one on top of every president's head. Okay.

The truth was, as amazing as this idea was, the tunnel blasted was very dangerous. Even the dudes who had spent their lives working in mines, or for the last few years, hanging on swings and jack hammering into George Washington's chin, we're like, yeah, I don't want to go in there. Did they bring in the canary? Oh, yeah, canary in the coal mine. Okay, yeah.

Sorry, that took me a second. I'm a slow woman. I just found out that reverse vacuums are a thing. They are blowers, and I did not invent them. There's a great Simpsons joke about the canary in the coal mine. What's a joke? Well, they're trying to dig, you know, when. Bart falls down the well

and they're trying to dig him out of the well classic episode yeah well they bring a canary and the canary dies and they're like oh my god everyone get out you know and then Dr. Hibbert goes gentlemen this canary died of natural causes and so they're like all right everyone back in the well

could you I'm so offended I'm so offended that I told that hilarious original joke that you thought must have come from a joke book. Me saying it was from a joke book is my own joke. You laughed so hard. It's something you've heard Dr. Hibbert say so many times.

I know how many reruns of the Simpsons you've seen. I've seen every episode like 50 times. And so, partly because it was dangerous, partly because there was no money to complete it, and partly because his brand new hand-picked commission demanded

it, Getson had to stop. It's okay. Give us the dynamite. Gutson, step back, okay? This is that Neapolitan ice cream that the seven-year-old got a hold of. He's eating the whole carton. All right, that's enough. Put the spoon down, hon.

Decades later in 1998, the incomplete Hall of Records was turned into a time capsule. In it, they put information on the history of Mount Rushmore, the history of the United States, and a DVD box set of the Jersey Shore. Yes. What year? 1998. Jersey Shore did not come out until 2008, so it would be impossible to add the Jersey Shore box. Oh, I've been caught in a lie. Damn it.

If you're going to make a joke on a history podcast, make sure it's historically accurate. I'm so ashamed. I apologize, Norm. I'm almost as ashamed as Ronnie was when he's. clogged the toilet so epically in that classic episode. Shall we continue? We shall. So Gutson had just been told no by his new commission and he couldn't help himself. He complained because he was mad. Come on, give me my dynamite back. He told an accountant for the U.S. Treasury Department that he was making way less money than he'd made with the old Rushmore Commission.

and the guy was like, what? And he went and checked. Oh, he's actually going to fact check Gutson Borglum? Uh-oh, we don't like that, do we? And he went back to Gutson and was like, no, you're wrong. You know, look at the numbers. I have them right here. And Gutson was like, oh, don't take me too seriously.

What an odd thing to say. Uh-huh. But, you know, people did take him seriously. The project was back under the National Park Service, and he would come back to Congress to ask for more money, and the timing got bad. The Great Depression was wrapping up, and we were on the brink of a Second World War.

That was the theme song of the Second World War. Sure. Yeah. Very upbeat. Da-da-da-da-da. It's a World War, yeah. Carving faces into mountains wasn't at the top of most people's priority lists. I think that was the word I was looking for earlier.

What? Priorities. So when I was like... Not avocado or swimsuit? Yeah. Are you sure? I'm pretty sure. Yeah, my brain is fried tonight.

Oh, wow. What's going on? I don't know either because you don't drink. You don't do drugs. You just raw dog life. So I'm not sure what's happening to you, darling. I don't know. Maybe I've got a bad batch of crystal light.

That can be dangerous. So when Gutson presented a proposal, budget for the upcoming fiscal year, one that included a payment of 35 grand for himself. Of course. Adjusted for inflation, 775K for the year. He got a little pushback. A congressman asked him, is this just an opportunity for you to make a lot of money? Excellent question.

Thank you for asking it. And Gutson was like, no. No, uh. In fact, good sir. In all the years, I've worked on the monument, I've never taken. more than 10k per year. That was a lie. I was going to say.

Very obvious lie. A source. But they, of course, still gave him money because, in my opinion, they probably felt the same way that the South Dakota dudes had felt for all those years. That Gutson was a showman, a bit of a fibber. But also, a talented artist who, if given the right resources, might make the impossible possible. I don't buy this difficult genius crap. I've never bought it.

You work with me. Oh. No, I think especially in creative fields, people are given way too much leeway of like, oh, yeah, he's an asshole, but he's so funny, so good at the, that. Yeah. There's so many horror stories of like celebrities. Yes. Like being complete douchebags and just getting away with it. And people almost want to write.

it off as like, oh, that's just part of who they are. Yeah. No, it's not. Yeah, you can be a decent human being and still be a celebrity. Or an artist or a creative, anything. A podcaster? No, I will be a monster always and forever because I'm allowed to. I get away with it every day.

Also, I've not been paid yet at all for the podcast for several years now. So I'm going to need all that back pay right now. Well, it all went to Judge Judy for her appearance on this show. Damn it. We're still in the red, folks. So Mount Rushmore was taking shape. Year after year, many of the same workers came back. They wanted to be part of something big.

They wanted to see this thing through. Tourists came in droves. And they were excited to see the monument take shape little by little. Yeah, it's like getting a new shower. It's exactly like that. In 1939, they hired a new assistant to work on the monument. In that assistant's name? Albert Einstein.

I'm sorry, Norm. That is incorrect. His name was Korchak Jawalski. Korchak. That's a cool name. He didn't last long. Let me guess. What?

What? Didn't get along with Gutson? Actually, you're wrong. Oh? Yeah, this is a weird one. He worked on Mount Rushmore for 19 days. And on the 19th day, he got into a physical fight with Lincoln Borglum. The son?

The nice one. What? Why? You know, I don't know. I don't know what the physical fight was about, but it is unreal to me that the physical fight was with Lincoln, of all people. But, you know, he was obviously fired. Well, yeah, you can't be getting in fist fights with the dude's son. But he quickly found other work.

and we'll come back to him in a moment. Okay, leaving me hanging. Meanwhile, Mount Rushmore was becoming kind of magical. They were refining the faces. Teddy Roosevelt had glasses. Lincoln's eyes had a twinkle. The idea of putting faces on a mountain had always been so weird and seemingly impossible,

but they were doing it, and they were doing it really well. Doing it and doing it and doing it well. Doing it and doing it and doing it well I represent queen She was raised out of Brooklyn Wow It's so weird It's so weird

It's so weird that they sang that song As they worked And that years later LL Cool J ripped them off With that song I think that was LL Cool J History Ho's if I'm wrong Please blast my ass

In a discord of course Not physically But you know the project Couldn't go on forever Money got harder to come by extra projects like the entablature and the Hall of Records had been nixed. And then in 1941, with World War II within whisper in distance, Congress gave Gutsin the bad news. I got to tell you, Kristen, World War II was a happening in 1941.

Our entry into it, okay, sir, this is an American tale. This is Fifele goes west that I'm telling you here, okay? Don't be still my... beating heart. I love an American tale, Fival Coast West. Great. So you understand my logic when I'm saying, in 1941 World War II was in

whisper and distance. Yes. All right. There's a girl you left behind. That was a good movie. Fucking great movie. All right. Calm down. Language, sir. So they gave him the bad news. They weren't giving him any more money. He had to finish the monument

with what he already had. And one week later, on March 6th, 1941, Gutsen Borglum died. He'd had prostate surgery and that had gone fine, but then he'd suffered two pulmonary embolisms and the second one ended his life. So he never got to see Mount Rushmore finished? No, but it was pretty close to what we think of today. What was missing? Nothing. So with Gutson gone, his son Lincoln led the completion of the monument. The goal was no longer to finish the presidents down to the waist or add anything extra. Oh yeah, I forgot they were going to go down to the bulging kneecaps. That's right. Notices your kneecap.

Instead, the goal was to get the faces as good as they could be. And on October 31st, 1941, they declared it good enough. Good enough. Mount Rushmore National Monument was finished. It had taken them 16 years and cost just under a million dollars. All in all, the project had called for the removal of half a million tons of granite off of the six Grandfather's Mountain. Jesus Christ. Yeah. That's so much. Yeah.

Many of the people who championed the project hadn't lived to see it completed. But all these years later, I think it's safe to say that it fulfilled its original stated in attention. It was designed to bring tourists to South Dakota, and it certainly has. Every year, approximately two million people visit Mount Rushmore National Monument to see the 60-foot-tall carved heads of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt, and Abraham Lincoln. Well, when you say it like that, carved heads, oh yeah, good, that's what it is. It's what it is. Man, I'm still thinking about if they did that original design. Oh, we've, yeah, it's amazing.

That'd be so great. The monument is huge. It's shocking. It's beautifully done, but also strange and awe-inspiring and deeply upsetting. Would you say there are many words to describe Mount Rushmore or many ways to describe Mount Rushmore? We could do a dance. We could sing a song about it, L.L. Cool.J. only, obviously. Yes.

play a Jersey Shore episode on the side of the mountain. I think that would speak volumes, don't you? You know, if you're trying to drum up interest in Mount Rushmore, I think projecting episodes of Jersey Shore onto George Washington's large forehead is a great idea. Thank you. Imagine's seeing Mike the situation plastered up there. What has our nation become? Hey, when he punched that wall in Italy, you know, he'd be punching George Washington's concrete head, so really add something. Yeah. Folks, I'm sorry for the number of times we've mentioned Jersey Shore on this episode.

It's totally unnecessary. Listen, the history hose love Jersey Shore. I can just feel it in my bones, okay? Very good. Mount Rushmore is all these things. And the fact that one man said he could do it, and a small group of people rallied around his vision and our government financed that vision probably says way more about the people

who did that than it does about Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, or Lincoln. Mount Rushmore National Monument tells future generations about our ingenuity, our talent, our hubris, and ego, and about things that we've done wrong. I mentioned in last week's episode that in 1920, the Sioux Nation brought a lawsuit against the federal government. I'm guessing it did not go well. Well, yes and no. Okay, in that lawsuit, they alleged that the federal government had stolen their land,

which included the Six Grandfather's Mountain, aka Mount Rushmore, and I'm going to give you the update. They went through a long, hard legal battle. In 1942, a year after Mount Rushmore National Monument was deemed complete, the court dismissed the Sioux Nation's claim. Yeah. But the Sioux people did not give up. They took their claim to the Indian claim.

Commission. And the Indian Claims Commission said, you're right, the land was taken, you should have been compensated for it. The way we see it, you're owed approximately $17.5 million. But of course, the federal government appealed and on appeal, the court was like, hey, we've all seen double jeopardy with Ashley Judd. You shouldn't have been able to make those claims in front of the Indian Claims Commission because the argument was dismissed way back in 1942. But then in 1978, the Sue secured a major legal victory by getting Congress to have a court look at their claim again without taking into account that bullshit 1942 dismissal. And so, in the year of our Lord 1980, which we all agree is the way to say it, the court was like, oh yeah, the federal government was in the wrong. The federal government

owes you $17.1 million in damages plus all the interest dating back to the year of our Lord 1877. When the treaty was signed. Yeah, the bullshit treaty. Yeah. When the land was stolen. And of course, the feds were like, yikes, and they appealed. Ooh, that's like getting the pizza delivery bill. Yeah, exactly like pizza delivery.

Oh, hey, why'd you get all these toppings on here? Now, Norm, I don't mean to excite you, but this thing went all the way to the United States. Supreme Court! And even the Supreme Court was like, sorry, boys, we affirm the lower court's decision. You owe the Sue some money. Rightfully so. Yeah, damn right. So it was settled, sort of.

But it wasn't that simple. Because what the Sioux Nation wanted wasn't money. They wanted their land back. Yeah, it had been stolen from them and they wanted it back. Yeah. So that money went into a trust, and it has sat there ever since. It is now worth in excess of a billion dollars, but that doesn't matter because they were never after the money. The fact that Mount Rushmore was carved on sacred stolen land and that what was carved into it were the faces of four white men whose policies and views and sometimes direct actions led to the deaths and displaces.

of so many Native Americans is horrible. It's impossible to overlook. Yeah. And a lot of people, when we talk about that horrible aspect of Mount Rushmore, want to talk about another massive, unmissable sculpture that sits just 17 miles away. I mentioned earlier that in 1938, Korchak-Jowalski was fired from Mount Rushmore and quickly found new work. Well, that new work was to carve another nearby mountain. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Stop it. I know. Leave the mountains alone. Sue Chief Henry Standing Bear asked him to carve a memorial to the Sioux Nation. He figured that if white men were going to get a massive monument to their heroes, then his people should have a monument to their heroes too. Sure.

So, Quirchak got started on Thunderhead Mountain, where he planned to carve out a statue of the legendary Sioux Chief Crazy Horse. Crazy Horse was a famous Oglala Lakota warrior. He kicked General Custer's stupid ass at the Battle of Little Big Horn. He was very courageous in the face of attempts to put himself or his people onto reservations. And the way Corchek envisioned it, his sculpture, once completed, would be way bigger than Mount Rushmore. Really? Oh, way bigger.

They planned to use, like, the whole mountain, kind of. It would feature crazy horse riding on his horse with his arm outstretched. Courtschek got to work. But the work was slow. And it was probably made slower by the fact that he refused to accept government funding for the monument. No state funds, no federal funds. Wait. Courtschak refused funding?

Why? I mean, I think there's some obvious reasons if it's for a Native American monument. Like, we don't want your bullshit money. Oh, I was thinking of like the funds from the treaty thing. Oh, no, that comes way later. That's way later. Okay, never mind. Yes, I understand now.

So this would be completed only through private funds. Kortech dedicated the rest of his life to this work. Wow. His first wife left him, so he married a woman named Ruth Ross, who was 18 years younger than him and had been volunteering at the mountain. They had ten children. Oh, who. Corchak died in 1982,

but by the time of his death, it didn't actually look like a ton of progress had been made, but he had managed to build his own tomb at the base of the mountain. He built his own tomb? Yeah. With Corchek gone,

his wife Ruth took over. Her husband's plan had been to focus on the horse first, but Ruth thought that it would be wiser to refocus their efforts on Crazy Horse's face. And in 1998, they finished his face. All these years later, they're still at it.

Many of Kourchek and Ruth's children still work on the mountain. It's still being worked on today. Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah. They're nowhere near finished, yeah. Well, if they're doing the entire horse and body, I mean, yeah, that would be massive. Sure.

There are a lot of Lakota people who really value the crazy horse monument and are excited about it and what it means and what it might mean for future generations. But, you know, there's not one way to feel about this stuff, and a lot of people really hate it. Well, because you're blowing up a natural beauty, a mountain. Yeah. Yeah, so I get that. It's why Mount Rushmore is so strange. Yeah. Well, one reason why Mount Rushmore is strange.

No, there's only the one reason. Well, we'll get to more. One big criticism is that Crazy Horse himself was famously very humble. He didn't want to be photographed. He asked his family to bury him in an unmarked grave. So there's a valid question about how he would feel about his largely imagined image being carved into a mountain. And not just any mountain, but a mountain that he fought hard to protect. Crazy Horse is revered for protecting his people and protecting the Black Hills.

So as you just pointed out, to carve up a mountain in the Black Hills in his image, you know, to some people just feels wrong. Sure, understandably so. Then there are questions about money. The federal government made two attempts to give Korchak millions of dollars for the monument, but he refused to accept federal funds. And his wishes remain true to this day. They only accept private donations. So I could donate to the Crazy Horse Monument right now?

Sure, sure. Wow. The amount of donations has raised some eyebrows. Every year, approximately 1 million people visit the Crazy Horse Monument. A New Yorker article reported that in 2018 alone, the Crazy Horse Memorial Foundation brought in $12.5 million in admission fees and donations. And that figure doesn't include the for-profit or government. that runs the gift shop, the restaurant, or the bus that drives you to the monument.

And in fact, up until a couple years ago, the video that played at the Visitors Center was mostly about Korchek and his family and gave very little airtime to the story of Crazy Horse's life. Okay. Or to any native people. I've seen this story play out before. What do you mean? You're trying to create art dedicated to this important person, but

It becomes more about who's creating it than the actual... Norm? Subject. Shut the fudge up. Okay. I'm about to wrap up here and boy, are we on the same page. For some, there's a feeling that the Crazy Horse Memorial isn't really about Crazy Horse.

It's about the sculptor and the sculptor's family. Yeah. And I think that as I wrap up this series, that is where I've landed. with all of these unmissable, massive works of public art. It may be crazy horse on that mountain. It may be George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, but it's not really about them. It was never really about them.

It's about the less remarkable people whose names we forget, but who made those monuments happen, maybe because of the anxiety that they felt about their own mortality. The anxiety they felt and the anxiety we all feel about leaving this earth without leaving a mark. Well, it seems like there's no bigger mark than blowing up a freaking mountain. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

I feel like when I first started this series, a lot of people were like, you guys, I got to check out the crazy horse, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was so excited about that because I was like, oh, good, something positive. It's not that it's negative. Like we've talked, everything's complicated. Yep. Everything's complicated. I just, and I keep thinking about, you know, okay, next summer we're going to be passing through.

And it's like, well, now that I know what I know, do I want to go to these places? Well, yeah, I still do. And that feels weird. That feels so weird to me, but I still want to see it. But at the same time, man, it's complicated. It is, but I think it's okay to look at it critically. That's all. Yeah.

You can still appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, it's not like you go and look at Mount Rushmore and you become brainwashed, and you're like, oh, my God. I'm a very stupid one of them. I love George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Thomas Jefferson, and Gutson Borgland was so hot and sexy, and he had a huge penis. Wow. I would not have gathered all that from just looking at Mount Rushmore, but I guess I don't know. Maybe you have to read the plaques, huh? So what did you think, Norm?

Oh, well, I learned a lot about Mount Rushmore. More than you wanted to know. I learned a lot about the problems with Mount Rushmore. Yeah. The story of Stone Mountain was bat shit. I loved Stone Mountain. Oh my gosh. To me, there's something about starting things with bad intentions and that just blows up in your face.

That's a funny story. Now, the fact that Stone Mountain is actually carved up today, that certainly takes a lot of the fun away, but still. Yeah. Well, I'm fascinated by monuments. Yeah. So, yeah, very interesting story. Great job, Kristen. Thank you.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And I think like the lesson you said at the end is a good lesson. That's just what I think. I mean, I, it's funny, I got so sick of guts in Borklam. I literally talked about him in therapy this week because I was so just upset. And I was like, I'm so sick of this man. And I think I told you, I was in a panic because I was like, I was worried about finishing this thing up in four episodes because I was like, I cannot do five. I cannot continue to read about this man making these nasty accusations at people and just being an asshole and carving into it. I can't.

And no, I get it. I mean, when I was watching hunting Hitler, I was just like, I can't take all of the lies. Yeah. I can't take it. Yeah. It just, I think it can trigger something in you that just makes you like, stop it! But it's funny. In therapy, we started talking about like, well, what is it that is so upsetting?

What is it? And like, it got me thinking about him not as this cartoonishly evil character in my head. Because obviously, he's not. It's not that simple. But to think of him as this man with this. this terrible anxiety about what if I die and I haven't done something massive. And I just think that's... Legacy, yeah.

Yeah, I think that can really trip a lot of people up. Does it bother you? Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's what made it kind of like turn around for me a little bit is like, you know, obviously I'm not going to go carve a fucking mountain. We're going to put a plaque on this house, though, remember? We talked about doing that. Oh, yeah.

What are we putting on there? Yeah, we're still coming up with ideas. Yeah, I mean, I think about, like, years ago when I was like, I, the thing that, like, got me over my fear of writing a book was the fear that I would be hit by a bus and not have written a book. So you wrote it out of fear? I mean, I think that was a bit of a motivator was like, well, I've got to do this. Otherwise, what's, you know, if I don't put something out there, if I don't make my mind. Mark, and now I'm kind of more, maybe just getting older and stuff, it's like, well, what's so bad about living a life and it's just a life?

Nothing at all. Yeah, you say that. But then 300,000 years from now, when the aliens come down and they're looking for faces on mountains, Norman Caruso's name's not going to come up, I'm sorry. Well, don't worry, because 300,000 years from now, you know, everything comes back into style. Uh-huh. So the aliens, they're all going to have iPods. Oh, okay.

Okay. Uh-huh. Like 16 gig iPods. Great. And they're going to look for podcasts to listen to. And they're going to like, oh, what's this? An old-timey podcast. That sounds like the best one. Yeah.

It sounds really cool and hip. Uh-huh. What all the kid aliens are listening to. Yeah. Yeah. And they're going to listen to this episode and think, Jersey Shore must have been very popular in the year of our Lord 2024. And they'll be right.

They'll be right. Yep. And the most beautiful one in the world was Kristen Caruso. Oh, no shit. Big pleasant hooters. That's what the people want. Give them what they want. Also, Tiffany, New York Palmer.

All right. Let's wrap this thing up, shall we? Everyone, thank you so much for listening to this series. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope it didn't make you go to therapy to talk about guts and Borglom at all. I've been listening to this podcast, and I can't stand this guy. And your therapist was like, well, maybe you should just. Stop listening to that podcast.

At least until the series is over. Yeah. Yeah. Folks, I'll give you a little bit of a spoiler. Oh. Coming up on an old-timey podcast, I'll be doing a series of one-off episodes. Oh. No series for an or me C.

Okay. I'm looking forward to this. You'll have to wait until next week to see what I'm covering. Let's wrap this one up. Okay. Kristen, you know what they say about history hose. We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from The Book, The Carving of Mount Rushmore by Rex Allen Smith, the documentary, Mount Rushmore.

The article Who Speaks for Crazy Horse by Brooke Jarvis for The New Yorker, as well as reporting from PBS, history.com, and Smithsonian.com. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok at Old Timey Podcast and follow us individually on Instagram.

I'm Kristen Pitts-Keruso and he's gaming historian. And until next time, Toot-Loo, Tata, and Cheerio! Bye! Makes me laugh every time.