An Old Timey Podcast - 28: Frances Perkins Fights For Workers Rights (Part 1)

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

Frances Perkins was the first woman to serve in a presidential cabinet. She’s the reason we have Social Security. She led the fight to end child labor, to establish a minimum wage and to create the 40-hour work week. In this episode, we find out how this remarkable woman got her start. Did it help that her birth name was Fanny??? Possibly! Bad names build character! Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Kristin pulled from: The documentary, “Summoned: Frances Perkins and the General Welfare.” The book, “The Woman Behind the New Deal,” by Kirstin Downey The Frances Perkins Center website Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts! Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm her lovey-dovey hubby-wubby. It's Normy C. Gross. And on this episode, I'll be talking about the first woman to serve on a presidential cabinet. Oh, historical. Yeah. Well, obviously. It's an old-timey podcast, Norm. An old-timey podcast. History podcast. Hey, why did you say gross when I said I was your lovey-dovey hubby-wubby. I think it goes without saying, frankly.

I'm hurt, frankly. Okay, well, why don't you cry about it, you lovey-dubby-hubby-wub. Talk to a telotubby. That was cute. I'm in a weird mood. I will confess. Yeah, you mentioned that before we started a recording, and I said, we know what, we're just going to work it out on the podcast.

We're to work through your feelings during the episode where you tell us about the first female presidential cabinet person. Yeah, I don't know that we were. I will work it out. I mean, I'll try my best, but I'm just all kinds of conflicted. Also, I feel like I did my script in kind of a strange way, and we're just going to have to go with it, because it's too late to change it. It's too late to change the script. Because we're recording right now. Do you have a pluggy-wug bug from the tub-y tub? Oh, you're trying to be cute and clever like I was during the intro. It failed spectacularly. I'm sorry. But before we get into Patreon, you know those history ho shirts we advertised on the last episode? Well, guess what?

Bye. They're all going. We sold out. You hoes are the most ridiculous hoes that ever hoed the earth. Yeah, we sold out in less than 12 hours. We really appreciate it. And wow, now finally, you have something to wear to church. Yeah, thank you.

We're so happy about that. Yeah, that was a limited run because we just were not sure what the demand would be. And I guess it's pretty high. So, yeah, we're going to restock those. Don't worry. But we just want to say thank you for all the support. That was amazing. Yeah.

We went live with that. And like, yeah, 12 hours later, they were all gone. And I was just like, what is going on? So I've been busy in the basement, packing up shirts, shipping them to all the hose across the land. We've got hoes in Canada. Hose in Australia. Hose in the United States. It was really cute.

I saw you were writing thank you on people's receipts. Yeah, I'm just very appreciated it. Like a flirty little waitress. We appreciate you, Norm. Yeah. And you know what? I think one big reason they sold out so quickly. What?

Is because we announced them on Patreon. Oh, nice segue. Mm-hmm. Patreon is the perfect way to support this small, independent, lovey-dovey podcast called an old-timey podcast. And at the $5 level, you get access to our Discord chat, bonus episodes every month with the full video. Norm, I've heard something about our Discord.

Gosh, it's a super famous phrase. It's really sweeping the nation. Frankly, the world. What is it again? Oh, yeah. It's popping like a bubble-wrapped dolphin. That's right. Yeah, I'm surprised you blanked on that because it's such a popular

phrase that a lot of people are saying. Yeah, I saw that on a bumper sticker. Sure. On Highway 71 the other day, popping like a bubble wrap dolphin. But anyway, the real treat is at that $10 level, pig butter investor, because you get early ad-free episodes, full video episodes of every old-timey podcast plus thank you card, sticker. And, okay, earlier this week, we did something a little different. Usually we do monthly YouTube watch parties. This month, we did trivia. It was so fun. It was a blast. We did a trivia night with questions and answers from this podcast. It was intense. I was sweating. And yeah, I think we're just going to do that again next month. So, if you're at the $7 level or the $10 level on our Patreon, you get to join us for trivia night.

It's a blast. Yeah, and I think it's fun because we used to do YouTube. watch parties, but famously, we were watching bad movie trailers one night, and during a J-Lo movie trailer, we got copyright claimed, or striked, or

what struck us... We were watching the trailer to Enough. And J-Lo struck us down. We're pretty sure it was her, just at her computer on Thursday night. Hit us with the left. Hit us with the right. An uppercut. And so, you know what we said? We said, we're not going to let J-Lo do this to us

We're going to do trivia instead. Yeah. And actually, after the bad movie trailer watch party, we did TV show theme song watch party. And we were like, there's no way J.Lo is going to get us this time. But guess what? She did it again. We were watching the Friday Night Lights intro. And we got another copyright strike.

And it said it was from NBC Universal, but I'm pretty sure it was J-Lo. We know exactly who did it. Who was famously in Friday Night Lights. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of, she had a very minor role. But anyway, if you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to get a bunch of extra goodies, if you'd like to play some trivia, please join us at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Thank you very much.

And now let's get into this week's episode about a lady. All right. Okay, are we ready? Oh, boy, am I ready. That's the question. Picture it! 1880. Boston.

Wait a minute. Oh, already you got to do some work on the soundboard there? Hang on a second, Kristen. Do loo. Do loo. Oh, oh, yeah. We have to go back in time, and that's how we do it. Yeah, everyone was so confused without that little sound bite.

Thank you, Norm. Yeah, 1880, Boston. Fanny, Cora Lee Perkins, twas born. Fanny? Fanny. Fanny Perkins? Yeah, I'm afraid so. The heir to the Perkins family restaurant fortune?

You wish and she wishes, and we all wish that. Perkins is done, right? Are there still Perkins? No, there's Perkins. Oh, okay. My apologies to the Perkins family. I remember me and my mom were driving to Michigan to visit my grandma, my lovely grandma. Your grandma is really becoming a character on this podcast, okay.

My mom said, okay, along the way, there's a Perkins. in Pennsylvania, and we're going to stop and eat there because they have a crazy good deal. Steak breakfast. So you had a steak, eggs, potatoes, and a pancake, 899. No, no, no. And coffee. That can't be good. That's what I thought.

I was like, there's no way this is good. Well, we stopped, we ate, and it was delicious. Norm, I'm not going to trust your food opinions from 15 years ago because guess what, my dude. I remember you from back then, you would eat those Tony's pizzas and you thought they were the best things on earth. And those things sucked. How dare you? You know I'm a slut for frozen pizzas. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to slut shame you, Norm.

I apologize. I think he just did. Okay. Well, anyway, yeah, Perkins, but not this kind of Perkins. Okay. Also, we have friends by the last name of Perkins, and we have never once thought, ask if they can get us a discount at Perkins. Well, they're very humble.

They don't want to brag about how they're part of that fortune, the Perkins Restaurant Fortune. I don't think it's completely out of business yet, but I have seen a lot of them closed lately. Yeah, it's because they only charge an $8.99 for the steak breakfast. That might be why. Anyway, should I go on with the story? Well, actually, one more thing about my grandma. Speaking of $899.

Uh-huh. Okay, so whenever we go to visit my grandma, she's in Lansing, Michigan. There's an Italian restaurant she loves. Oh my God, that place. That has an 899 steak special and it is, it's terrible. Well, it tastes like an 899 steak special. But my grandma loves it and she always says every single time we eat there. She goes, you know, if we had this meal in New York City, it would have cost 4999. And all, every, every, time. All I could say was, you're right, Grandma? Yep. It would be more expensive in New York City. That is a fact. That is a fact.

It's like eating a shoe at stake. Anyway, Fanny Perkins. Fanny Perkins. Did her parents think, gee, it's pretty messed up to name a child Fanny? No. Usually you name your aunt Fanny. Do you want to hear what other names they considered? Oh, yes, absolutely. They also considered Derry Air and Hindquarters. Oh, that's why I was trying to get to the rim shot sound, because I was like, you've got some stupid joke you're about to say. Anyway, they stuck with the name Fanny, and a few years later, they all moved their Fannies over to Worcester, Massachusetts.

Ooh, Worcester, which, when I first visited, I was like, ah, what a lovely town, Warchester. And you were like, um, actually, it's Worcester. Listen, one of my BFFs from college is a proud Worcester lady. And I made that mistake once and never again, okay? I just, listen, I just want to know why it's spelled that way? Why it's spelled that way if it's not pronounced that way. That is a valid question, my friend, about a lot of New England towns. Curious hoes want to know.

That's all. Future topic. Why is Worcester spelled that way? That's going to be a short episode. Unless we break it up with a lot of stories about your grandma, and we do have several. I could spend the next 50 episodes talking about my grandma. Oh, I think people would enjoy it. Maybe.

Do you like a problematic queen, folks? Are you okay with that? All right, great. She's got some hot takes. Very hot takes. Spicy. So Fannie's dad, Frederick, opened up a paper goods business in Worcester. The Francis Perkins Center website claims it's still in business.

today. I spent five seconds Googling and all I found was a Perkins restaurant in Worcester. For real? Yeah, for real. Well, maybe there's a connection there. There's not. But, you say, look. Well, actually, why am I saying there's not? There might be. We don't know. Paper goods just aren't working out for us. We're transitioning to a family restaurant. The Perkins family was a proud one. They were related to attorney James Otis. You ever heard of this fella? The only Otis I know is from the movie Milo and Otis. No, different fella, sorry to say.

And Otis was actually a dog. Yes, he was. No, I'm talking about real human man. He bravely mouthed off against the British. In fact, they say he coined the term, no taxation without representation. What? What? Why are you making that face?

Well, how, wait, sorry, hang on, hang on. How are they related to James Otis? He's a way back relative. Oh, okay. Sorry. I was like 1880. No. That dude would be 150 years old if he came up with that phrase. Yeah, he's also not a dog either. But anyhow, so he coined that term, maybe, we're pretty sure. But like the second he said it or wrote it down in a little pamphlet, a British officer clobbed him over the head! And poor James was never the same. For real?

Yeah. Future topic. Ready for another famous relative? Yeah. Fanny's grandma's cousin was General Oliver Otis Howard, a stone cold fox, and founder of Howard University. Ooh, Howard University? Yes. Wait a minute, you said Stone Cold Fox. I've got to look this guy up.

Okay, don't read about him, just ogle him. Oh, I'm familiar with this man. I figured you would be. I'm going to tell a little bit. And if you have anything to add, well, do you want to add about his hotness? I was quite struck by how good looking this man was. Yeah, he's got a nice head of hair, a beautiful beard. Mm-hmm.

Oliver Howard worked really hard to make reconstruction happen. Mm-hmm. He was the commissioner of the Freedman's Bureau, and he was doing a lot of good work. Too much of it, actually, if you ask some folks, because get a lot of this, Norm. Some people didn't really want reconstruction to happen, and they were not happy about the super hot white dude who was trying to, you know, help make it happen. So yada, yada, yada, yada. He got falsely accused of doing some shady financial shit.

He was totally innocent. And as a result, he got driven out of office. Along with the rest of reconstruction. Yes. He thought President Johnson sucked Johnson. Which, I happen to know, you also have the same opinion. Top five worst presidents. He's up there. See, that's the series I want.

I want you. Do you really? Yeah, I want you. going nuts so bananas on the worst U.S. presidents of all time. Okay. I can make that happen. All right. I think it would end up like your Hitler series where you just become a shell of a man by the end of it.

That's my thing. As long as there's not a history channel show called the top worst presidents ever, then I'm fine. Okay. All right. The problem was I had to debunk so much bullshit in that series. You don't think that you'd become a shell of a man reading it. about Andrew Johnson being like, well, actually, maybe we shouldn't do anything good at all. And have you thought about actually doing bad stuff instead?

Okay. No. I mean, I think it'd be easy to make fun of those guys. Okay. Make it happen, cap'n. By the way, Oliver was such a Christian, Christian dude that his nickname was... Do you know his nickname? No.

It's a ridiculous nickname. His nickname was Old Prayer Book. Old prayer book? They call them old prayer book. Which whoever did that as a nickname, I don't think they're good at making nicknames. Yeah, that's not super exciting. Well, no, and it should really be one word. Like prayer book real fast?

No, a nickname should be like T-Bone. You know? If all his nickname was T-Bone, maybe those guys wouldn't have messed with them with the Friedman's Bureau. I bet they wouldn't have. You don't want to fuck with Oliver T-Bone Howard, all right? In other words, young Fannie came from a long line of folks who loved saving money, loved doing the right thing, very publicly, and who hated complainers.

Did they complain about complainers? We don't know. But we love the irony. So they liked saving money. Did they like living better? They did, no, these are not Walmart folk, okay? Get a hold of yourself. In a lot of ways, Fannie was just like her family.

She definitely held a lot of their values. She just took them a bit further. For example, you know, her parents were charitable people. If someone was hungry, they'd give them food. They were always quick to put some money in the church donation basket. But when Fannie started going to school, she really encountered poverty for the first time. And she was confused by it.

So she came home from school and asked her parents, how it was possible that like good, nice people could be poor. So she was like, what's up with all these poor people? Not what's up with them, but like, why is this happening? Basically, why are bad things happening to good people? She thought it was just unfair that a decent person might be unable to attain the basics, like food, shelter, clothing. And her parents had an answer to that question.

Are you ready? Yeah, I'd like to know as well. They explained that if someone didn't have money, it was due to one of two reasons, possibly both. They were either lazy or drink too much alcohol. And those are the only reasons. Those are the options. And sadly, people still believe that today. That, I mean, it is kind of funny.

So the Francis Perkins website, like, they phrase it as her parents answered with a common answer for that time period. and it's like, I think a lot of people are still saying that. Oh, I hear that. You see that shit all the time, especially the lazy one. Yeah. You're not working hard enough or you need to get three more jobs or something like that. Uh-huh. Yikes.

Okay, well. Are you ready for something that's not terribly problematic? Yes, please. Okay, Fannie's parents believe that women should have the right to vote. Yaha! We love to see it. After Fannie graduated from high school, they made the... highly unusual move of sending her off to college. At the time, only the tedious, tiniest, tiniest

percentage of women went off to college, but off she went to Mount Holyoke. Where is that? I'm about to tell you. Mount Holyoke is an all-women's institution, and if it keeps trying, it might one day reach the heights of the far superior all-women's institution, Simmons University, aka the Harvard of Boston. That's what everyone calls it. Uh-huh. Simmons is popping like a bubble-wrapped dolphin. That's what they say. I thought it was called Simmons College.

Name changed. Oh. Long time ago. When you went, was it Simmons College? Yes. So, long time ago, huh? Shut up. Anyhow, Fannie flourished at Mount Holyoke.

When did you get a telephone? When did they install telephones at Simmons? Was it when you were there? Shut. Hear you, hear you. We've just put in the first payphone at Simmons College. Listen, I think Simmons changed their name in like 2009. Oh.

I think. So long ago. Listen, the important thing is that I'm really smart, okay? That's the important thing. Yeah. Aren't you the woman who dropped out of law school? Yeah. That wondered why some balloons float and some don't.

Oh, my God. Everyone. This is a story I have never. You've never told this story? No, it's a shameful story, but go ahead, asshole. We were buying balloons for a party, and I picked some up from like the dollar general, right? I'm not going to help you with this story about how stupid I am. Sorry, you bought the balloons.

Yes. There's a party. You bought balloons from Dollar General. It was our niece's second birthday party. Yes. And I was in charge of buying decorations. So you bought the balloons, and you blew them up with. Air with your mouth, tied them off.

And Kristen expected them to just float to the ceiling. I did. Indeed. And they were just falling to the ground. And Kristen came to me and said, I think I bought like the wrong balloons or something. These aren't floating. I was pissed because I thought Dollar General had sold me shitty balloons. I remember distinctly, I filled one up with my mouth and tied it off, it fell to the ground. I was like, what?

I filled up another. Tied it off, fell to the ground. And then I hollered for you and started to complain to you about the Dollar General ripping me off with their shitty balloons that didn't even float. And the look on your face when you realized how dumb I was. I was like, oh. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I said, Kristen, they need to have helium in them for them to float.

Yeah. Air's not going to do it. Yeah, well. And then I went to your sister and said, check out this hilarious story where Kristen didn't know that you need helium for the balloons to float. And I was explaining the story. And then Kyla goes, oh, was she tying the balloons incorrectly? Kyla also did not know balloons need helium to float

It's our parents Our parents are to blame Or the Kansas public school system Maybe a combination of both That's that Johnson County education For you Skipped all the lessons about helium You know what

It's not shocking because didn't Johnson County Make national headlines Because they were like Yeah we're not teaching evolution anymore We're going to do creationism Yeah, back in my day, Kansas was really, really struggling with the idea that evolution might have happened. And so we just didn't get taught that. Yeah.

So maybe your science class wasn't up to stuff. It was just Diet Coke and Mentos every year for science class. And we loved it. Anyhow. It's fun to look at. Fanny flourished at Mount Holyoke. Everyone thought she was so cool. She was funny.

She was a born leader. she was great at flying kites. I mean, incredible. I have no idea how to fly a kite. Here's the thing. Maybe I need helium. Shut up. I am convinced that in 1900, flying kites must have been the coolest thing a person could do

because it is mentioned twice, at least, in her biography. Maybe she just liked flying kites. Well, yeah, of course, but I mean that other people were like, whoa, get a hold of this lady. She can fly kites like nobody's business. See that kite fanny has? Damn. She became class president. She majored in physics.

Did she dip her toe in the lady pond? We can't say for sure. What does that mean? What do you think it means? Dip her toe in the lady pond. Yeah. Was she into the ladies? Oh.

So I'm a little slow on that. Yeah. That's your. your helium story right here. So they don't know? Well, I know. What's your take? Let's hear your spicy take. I don't actually know.

And it's one of the things that annoys me greatly about this story. This is a two-parter episode, folks. In the second part, we're going to get into her living with a lady, writing very nice notes to one another. And, of course, everybody's always like, oh, back in the day. day, you know, women would write, you know, really flowery letters to each other. It was totally normal to be like, I want to, you know, eat your snatch for 12 hours. Like that was just like a totally straightly behavior. That's just what friends do.

No, so I, we don't know. But I will say this, they raised two dogs together, so. Interesting. Yeah. Can't wait to hear more about that. Anyway, yeah. Stay tuned. Okay. So the ladies, you know, we don't know what was going on there, but what we do know, or at least I feel like I know, is that Fannie only majored in physics because she was super smart. It wasn't because she was actually interested in physics. What interested her were people and being of service. In fact, her senior year, one of her professors took her students to visit some of the nearby mills. The professor wanted her privileged, well-educated students to see firsthand the terrible work.

conditions that a lot of men, women, and children faced. Yeah, this is before child labor laws, huh? Uh-huh. Also, before the minimum wage, before the 40-hour work week, before any kind of social safety nets. Did you ever see that old-timey video of a guy, he's like a chimney sweep, and his son is his assistant, and his son is like five years old? And it's like, yeah, that would make sense because, like, a kid could fit in a chimney and, like, help clean it. It was sad. I mean, yeah, all of these stories are devastating.

I mean, children were used for their little hands to do all kinds of hard work. I feel like I heard horror stories of, like, yeah, they sent kids into, like, fix machines because their little hands could get into the gears and stuff. Yes. More fun times ahead, folks. Man. You know, last week you did lobotomies, and now we're... This is supposed to be an uplifting story, but, you know, obviously it's going to be bad for a little bit. Yeah, I mean, history's full of terrible shit. Okay, let's just get through it.

In other words, people would work around the clock for hardly any money, and if they got injured on the job, well, that was too damn bad. They needed to scoot out so that some other five-year-old could step in. The more things change, the more they stay the same. These five-year-olds are taking our jobs. Hey, I've seen news stories recently of, like, kids working at McDonald's. and they get caught. Oh. It's coming back.

And then in Arkansas, I think Arkansas is rolling back child labor protection. Great. Thanks. That's. It is, sorry to bring the podcast down again, but. Well, and the sad thing is the reason that kids would be in a position where they'd need to work. Because we need more social safety nets. I'm looking at the camera, like I'm expecting the pig butter investors to do something about this. You know what?

take all the returns you've been getting on the pig butter and go invest in your community. We know you're getting so rich off pig butter. So Fannie and her classmates were horrified by what they saw that day, and it stuck with them. Later, they met with the executive secretary of the National Consumers League. Her name was Florence Kelly, and she was a total badass. Champion of women's rights. She hated racism, hated sweatshops, and she was not afraid to fight for what she believed in. I am also against racism and I'm also against sweatshops, but I'm a little too scared to fight for what I believe in.

You're almost there, Norm. I'm almost as cool as she is. So Fannie met Florence and she was like, holy cow, you are the coolest person ever. Also, I'm taking notes on everything you're doing because you've basically invented the career that I want to have. It was all so inspiring. It was all so exciting. But then, Wamp, Wamp, Fannie graduated. from college, and she had the experience that so many young people have.

Their senior year of college is so cool. It's the best. They're doing all the things. The world is their oyster, and then they graduate, and they have to move back home to Worcester. Oh, as we go on, we remember. The times we had together. Poor Fannie had to listen to that.

and see some and then go back to Worcester. It was kind of a letdown because college had changed Fannie, but you know what hadn't changed? Worcester? Probably, but also her family and their expectations. I see, we still have that Perkins family restaurant. Yeah, yeah, we're still saying the town's spelled this way, but we're pronouncing it the other way. Okay. So she's back with her family, and they're like, oh my gosh, you're back.

Wonderful. How about you get a job teaching and you teach, teach, teach all day long and hopefully, God willing, some nice young man will bestow upon you the highest honor that a woman can get. A marriage proposal. Absolutely. And Fannie was like, maybe I'm super gay. Did you ever think of that, mom and dad? And they said, Fannie, that's kind of lost to history. We can't say that for sure. Also, we're pretty sure this conversation didn't happen. It's just in Kristen's imagination.

And they just kind of looked at each other for a while. Until finally, Fannie moved to Lake Forest, Illinois, for a teaching job because she just had to get out of there. While she was there, she changed her name from Fannie to Frances because... Why are you looking at me like that? You know why she... We all know why she changed her name. Yeah, I mean... Because of butts.

Yeah, because of butts. No one was taking her seriously because her first name meant but. It's real unfortunate. The only thing I can hope is that in the year of our Lord 1880 when she was born, Fanny was not slang for butts. Can I look it up? Sure. If it was, her parents were monsters. The term Fanny is of unknown origin, but it may come from the nickname Fanny for Francis.

Sounds like you're not really getting to the bottom of this. The term Fanny pack comes from the slang term Fanny for the Air Force. area above the buttocks. Yeah, this AI is not helping me. History hose weigh in. Can someone tell us when Fanny became slang for Yibumbum? For Yibum, yeah. That's right.

We do have our army of history hose to help us out here. That's right. Non-threatening. Mostly butt researchers, really. Got my Ph.D. and Budanomics. So, obviously, she changes it because of the butt stuff. I mean, well, you know what I mean. But also, her biographer, Kirsten Downey, also pointed out that Francis is a gender neutral name.

So that could have been seen as advantageous. But also, Francis was really into monogrammed shit. So it just kind of made sense, I'm going to change my name, but I'm not going to change my initials because I've got all these perfectly nice towels and hangies. Yeah, I put a lot of work into this. Mm-hmm. You have to go back and re-hmm. monogram everything. So Francis, you know, she kind of liked teaching, but she really wanted to be a social worker. Problem was, though, social workers weren't paid anything in those days. Like literally,

it was a volunteer job as opposed to these days when, you know, all social workers are filthy, rich. Yeah, they're so greedy bastards. Honestly, it disgusts me how much social workers mean. Yep. So Francis did her teaching job, you know, to pay the bills, but she also volunteered. at a little place called the Hull House. The Hull House? Hull House is... That sounds familiar. Yeah, it's very famous.

Yeah. It was a settlement house in Chicago where a community of university women would host free classes, provide resources, help deliver babies, throw parties, et cetera, for all the people who live nearby,

most of whom were new immigrants. It was like the original community center, the original domestic violence shelter, and a place where people could gather and talk about social reform. As many as 10,000 people a week came to Wholehouse. Ooh. Yeah, so there was a lot of need, and they were doing a lot. This was where Frances really found her passion.

She really felt for all these people who came to America because they'd been sold on the American dream, only to be discriminated against and be accused of stealing jobs, stealing shitty jobs, mind you. Still happening today? She was especially moved by the children who were forced to work in factories. She later said, quote, they were being abused, losing their mental development, losing their courage, and they grew pale and thin and looked worn and worn out. Thanks to Wholehouse, Frances discovered that factory work was actually so much worse than she'd originally thought.

She found out that a lot of new immigrants were coming to the area, getting jobs in factories, working tirelessly for like no money, only for their employer to then not pay them at all on payday. That's fun. Oh, yeah, it's great. That's hilarious. Just a prank, bro. Yeah. All of a sudden, they'd be like, oh, oops, there's actually a fee. And you use that machine and actually that we charge for you to use that machine.

The machine in their factory? Hey, Norm, whose cider you want? Okay? And oops, oh, I just don't want to pay you. And the factory owners and the managers got away with it because who was going to stop them? Well, I'll tell you who was going to stop them. Francis was going to stop them. First, she tried talking to the factory bosses.

And when they were like, yeah, we're going to keep being dicks, she was like, okay, well, now I'm going to go to your landlord. How do you like that? And I'm going to tell your landlord about everything you're doing here. And then all of a sudden, the factory bosses magically, oh my gosh, what's that? They found the money that they owed their employees. Oh. Yeah, it was so weird. It had been between the couch cushions the whole time.

Oops. Oops. You didn't think I wasn't going to pay you, did you? Oh, my gosh. It happens. I would never. Well, that's cool. So Francis was learning and getting bolder.

But also she was hobnobbing with all the highest class knobs, you know. Hobnobbing with the knobs. That's a thing people say. Yeah, just like popping like a bubble-wrapped dolphin. Yeah, what? I am up to date on all the cool slang. I'm sorry that you're not. Did our niece teach you about bubble-wrap dolphins?

Yeah, she's always saying things that I don't understand. I need to try that on her. I taught her about glizzies, though. You're doing the Lord's work, Norman. Yeah. She had no idea that the kids these days are calling hot dogs glissies, but I knew. In fairness, that does sound made up. Mm-hmm.

And like it should stop happening. At Whole House, she met all kinds of famous people, which ended up being a great thing when she would later get into politics. Okay. Until this point, I've really only talked about the positive ways that Whole House shaped her. Okay. But it also shaped her in a potentially negative way. Kind of depends on how you look at it.

Oh, what happened? So believe it or not, Normie, Whole House was seen by some people as a terrible place where radical liberals jumped in and just did a bunch of social justice warrior shit, okay? Look at all these feminists. Ugh, gross. They were pretty sure that Whole House was just full of violent anarchists. And of course, there were reporters who wanted nothing more than to get in there and expose those woke lives for all the time. terrible things they were doing. So did they have someone go undercover? I mean, they tried.

They tried all kinds of stuff. And as a result, a lot of the whole house staff got really good at avoiding reporters. And the people who have studied Francis Perkins sometimes wonder if she got a little too good at avoiding reporters. What does that mean? Well, her very strong distrust and dislike of journalist never left her. after these experiences at Wholehouse, that was just the way she handled journalists. Well, how do you feel about this as you being a former journalist?

I don't think it's entirely bad, especially for a woman at this time. If she had talked too much, if she had been too open, that probably would have been a mistake. But also, it's funny, so yes, I'm a former journalist, but I'm also a former media trainer. and one of the first things you always have to do with people in media training. And it seems very elementary, but I think it's a step you cannot skip. It's the first thing you do is you tell people, reporters are people. They got into this job because they want to cover the community news and inform their readers. And it's basically like teaching people, you do not need to be terribly afraid or terribly

I don't know, some people have such animosity toward reporters. Distrustful. Yeah, and you don't want to be stupid about it either. I mean, you don't want to just grant an interview to any reporter. You want to be a little cautious, but yeah, it can be a bad thing because if reporters sense that you hate them, that will probably shape their coverage of you. Yeah, absolutely. Even if they don't want it to. Yeah. Well, they're human.

Yeah. So as Francis works. a new organization came together in Philadelphia. They called themselves the Philadelphia Research and Protective Association. And G.D. They were badly needed because guess what was happening in Philly, Norm? The University of Pennsylvania was winning the track and field championships. I don't know why I keep remembering that fact from the Olympic episode.

I mean, that's a real fun, cheery fact. I'm glad you remember it. Here's something awful. Okay. You ready for this? Okay. young women were coming to Philly, hoping to find work. Some of them were immigrants.

Some of them were just leaving farm life coming to the city. Some of them were young black women leaving the South for the first time. And as soon as these vulnerable young women got off the train or off the boat, they'd find themselves surrounded by really helpful people. Oh my gosh. people who knew hey hey here's some cheap lodging over here oh people who knew exactly where the local employment office was in case they wanted a job where is this going where do you think it's going i don't know is this like sex trafficking or something you know exactly where it's going oh hang on there it is yep oh boy okay so this new organization in philly what was it called again oh it's so long the philadelphia research and Protective Association. Yeah.

Anyway, they want to do something about this because like... Well, yeah, they should. Somebody should do something. Yeah, it's terrible. The University of Pennsylvania track team's not going to do anything. Yeah, they're too busy winning championships. We are winning medals right now. Uh-huh.

So these women were coming to Philadelphia. They were, you know, being forced into something that they wanted no involvement in. And of course, they were catching diseases. Many of them died by suicide. It was awful. Was this like an organized crime thing? Or was this just like something random happening in Philly? I doubt it was random.

I mean, they had employment offices set up. Yeah. Well, who's behind all this? And they had boarding houses that were, you know, looked like boarding houses but really weren't. Right. Do we know who was behind all this? Would you hang on for a second? Okay.

I want justice. You're acting like you're going to fly to physical. right now and catch these people. It's a little too late. They're all dead. 120 years ago, okay? So in 1907, when that organization offered Francis the position of general secretary, she was like, absolutely, I want this opportunity.

But this job was wild. She sometimes posed as a potential victim. She went toe to toe with like Jeffrey Epstein's great great grandpapa, I'm guessing. She went undercover? Yes. Yes. And in the end, she investigated 165 employment agencies, 100 boarding houses, and she wrote up a very damning report. And that report was so effective that the city then started doing police patrols on docks and train stations, you know, to tell these sex traffickers to go fug themselves. But they also put in stricter rules about what it took to call yourself a lodging house or an employment office. You couldn't just put up a sign and be like, hey, come here. Just like you can't put up awnings on your house and say you're an Italian restaurant now.

Everyone, do you want to... You just can't do it. Do you want to tell the people how we feel about awnings over windows in residential areas? Sometimes I'll see awnings on a house and it just, it looks like an Italian restaurant. It does. And I want to knock on the door and I want to say table for two and they'll say, what are you talking about? I'll say, well, isn't this an Italian restaurant?

You've got the green and red awnings. Yes. And frankly, I'm demanding breadsticks. I want breadsticks. I want chicken Spadini, which I guess is a Midwest thing. Is it? Yeah, I don't think chicken Spadini is a national dish. I think he was actually invented in St. Louis.

Oh, listen, I've got nothing in against St. Louis. I can spend three days there and be perfectly fine. Sure. So her work in Philly had been really hard, but it had all. also been very meaningful, rewarding. Can I just say, her writing up a report on like 160 employment offices or 100 boarding houses, it's just like, man, that's incredible. Yeah.

The amount of work she put into this. And I'm just thinking about, I'm sorry, this is, this feels random, but. As random as the awnings on houses. Exactly. No, I read a statistic the other day that was like, our workforce is like, way more productive than ever. And I'm just like, sometimes I don't feel that way. And I hear something like that.

And I'm like, I feel like maybe there were way less distractions back then. Sure. And so, I don't know, it's just incredible to me to see somebody put in that amount of work and like do so much good. And I'm just like, yeah, she didn't have, you know, a 24-hour TV channel showing kitchen nightmares to distract her. If she had, she wouldn't have made that presidential character. or 90-day fiancé, you know. Well, one thing I'll say about her, and this was going to come later, but you're kind of, man, you're getting to this a little early. The kind of funny thing about Francis was she really cared about working folks.

You know, we'll see later getting people to be able to work reasonable hours so that they could be with their family, so they could rest, so they could do whatever they wanted, you know. Work shouldn't be this all-consuming thing. Of course, ironically, for her it was. Yeah, she busted her ass on that, it sounds like. Yes. And for like... Her fanny. Hey, too soon.

So she does this. And a few years later, she moved to New York where she got her master's degree from Columbia. And she's... Oh. Yes. I think she studied economics and... Oh, shoot. I didn't write it down.

I think it was sociology, too. My grandpa grew up near Columbia. Oh, really? Yeah, didn't attend. just grew up near it. I think some of the prestige did wear off on him, though. Isn't that fair to say? Absolutely.

Yeah. It reminds me like, gosh, one of my favorite jokes from Kirby Enthusiasm was when Larry David's talking to that rabbi. And the rabbi says his cousin died on 9-11. Yes. And Larry's like, oh, my God, like, was he in one of the towers? And he was like, no, he was clipped by a bike messenger uptown. It's like, okay. Technically the truth.

Technically, he did die on 9-11. This feels like real dishonesty. That's one of my favorite jokes. Okay. So she's getting her master's degree. She's studying childhood malnutrition in Hell's Kitchen. You're staring at me like I should say something. I don't know.

I thought you were going to jump in with a Gordon Ramsey story. I was just preparing myself. I was never really into Hell's Kitchen like Kitchen nightmares. Okay, well. We watched a few seasons together. You know, the one time, I feel like you're going to jump in with some random-ass story, and I'm just so wrong. You stared at me.

You put me on the spot. And then? Uh-huh. Holy smokes. In 1910, she got a very cool job working as the executive secretary for the New York City Consumers League. That meant that she got to work with the very cool Florence Kelly, whom she first met at Mount Holyoke, and who you mentioned you have a lot in common. with, except for the actually doing stuff.

Exactly. We're going to talk about it. Uh-huh. We're going to think about it a lot. We're going to feel real anxious about the whole thing. We're going to fume inside for a while. But when it comes time for action, I'm going to sit down on the couch for a while.

I've got some other stuff I'm going to take care of. Maybe tomorrow. Francis and Florence were truly a mentor and a manatee, swimming around, learning and growing, going, arpher, far, far. Manatee. A mentor and a manatee? I think that's a 30 rock joke. This was also when Francis started to advocate for, I don't want to say what she was worth.

But I will say, when she took this job, she said, okay, I'll take it, but I want a full-time secretary. And I also want a salary of $1,200 a year. And they were like, how about $1,000? And she's like, it's actually not that great. It's only about 35K. But it was a big leap from the $600 a year she'd been making in Philly. Oh, yeah. That's double.

Well, no, she only got a thousand. Math, math, math, math, math. But she asked for 1,200. Yes, and she only got a thousand. I see. So. Negotiations. Uh-huh.

Yeah, I get it. Thank you. And it was in this position that Francis began rubbing elbows with politicians. She developed good relationships in Tammany Hall, aka New York City's political machine. Those Tamney Hall hucksters. I know. That's one of those things I was like, Tammany Hall. Okay, I know I should know all about this, but I don't know a damn thing.

I feel like it's ominous, though. Yeah, kind of the wealthy elite. That's a political machine, yeah. Right. And it was at the New York City Consumer's League that Francis started doing wild shit. Like saying, hey, I know that. that women and children are working nonstop in horrible factories. And, you know, we'd hate for that to end. But what if we let the ladies and the children head home after working, I don't know,

54 hours per week? 54. That was a big deal. That was really advocating for people to say, how about if the kids only work for 54 hours a week? Yeah. Well, and I guess you got to start somewhere with those negotiations, right? I wonder when the 40-hour work week became a thing. Uh, honey, don't you think you're going to find out? Yes, baby.

Stay tuned for this series. Thanks, schnookums. Also, she was kind of like, hey, I'm a little worried about fires. Could we, I don't know, have some clearly marked exits in these warehouses? Yeah, like in a movie theater. How about a hose? Could we get a hose? Where are the hose at?

How about we stop putting the bottles of tequila next to the crates of matches? Would that be all right? Oh, dangerous, but delicious. To be clear, these were wild ideas, and very few people in power wanted to implement them because the people in power really needed new hot tubs for their summer houses. Kristen, you understand better than anybody. I completely understand, and you know what, damn it, if that means a six-year-old has to work 60 hours a week, then so be it, okay? Worth it. Absolutely worth it. Francis lobbied and lobbied for basic human decency.

But the thing that really moved the needle wasn't an impassioned argument or a well-written pamphlet. It was a tragedy. On March 25th, 1911, Francis was having tea with some friends in Washington Square when chaos broke out all around them. And Francis and her friends ran toward the chaos. What they witnessed that day firsthand was the triangle shirtwaist factory fire. Oh, yeah. I've heard of this. I covered this on my old podcast.

Let's go to court. If you want a really fun episode, don't listen to that one. That day, the factory caught fire and the women and children and men who worked there were helpless to fight it. Their employers had locked and blocked all the exits because they didn't. want the workers to take any breaks. Dear God. Employers can be so ridiculous about natural disasters or even just snow. Sometimes employers are like, you have to come in.

Can I tell the story about my old job? It still makes me mad. Years later. One of my old corporate jobs, we had this huge snowstorm, and we got an email from the CEO, well, not the CEO, maybe the. Yeah, someone high up. Some high up that was like, oh gosh, this snowstorm, the roads are dangerous, you know. If it's too much to come into work, we get it.

But you better make every effort to get your ass into work. That's basically what the email said. It didn't say stay home. It didn't say come into work. It was very vague. Yeah, that's corporate bullshit. Yeah. So my whole team came in.

Well, but your boss had also. said, you guys better be there. Yeah. And then my boss, yeah, he did repeat. Yep, you guys all got to come in. Yeah. So we all came in and wouldn't you know it, we were the only dumbasses there. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. We had the whole building. And then one of your coworkers, like, didn't they total their car? He got, he got stuck on a bridge. Yep. On the way home. And was out there all night, I think. Yep. Yep. Great. All jobs it could have been done from home, by the way. Yes, completely remote.

Absolutely. Life before 2020. Yeah. Kristen, I promise to you at an old-timey podcast, if there's a snowstorm, we're going to take the day off. Wow. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that very much.

You're welcome. I'm in charge of that whole department at old-timey podcast. Great. I'm glad to have a man helming this. You're welcome. So their employers had locked and blocked all the exits and stairwells. And there were no sprinklers in the building because sprinklers were expensive. Also, there were no rules saying you had to have sprinklers.

Well, you know, you said they needed that hot tub. So if you buy sprinklers, you got to get a smaller hot tub. And we'd hate for that to happen. As a result, 146 people, most of them immigrant girls, between the, ages of 14 and 23 died that day. Jesus Christ. Many of them jumped to their deaths. Yep. Many died from smoke inhalation. Some burned. Francis later talked about watching as people gathered with a net just trying to catch people as they fell from the burning building. But the women were jumping from so high and the nets weren't strong enough. And she witnessed people

break through the nets and slam against the pavement and die. Ugh. It was horrible. That is like something out of a nightmare. Yes. And these were people who Francis had tried to help. Like she had been advocating for better working conditions. Yeah.

And this happens. It was horrible, but it was also a wake-up call. And suddenly people like Francis who had been advocating for change for years were in high demand. And Theodore Roosevelt recommended Francis to be the executive secretary of the newly formed committee on safety. It was a huge job. Francis led investigations into fire safety. She convinced politicians to come see what conditions were like in these factories. Because, you know, it's one thing to be like, I'm pretty sure it's fine, but it's another to go see for yourself. Sure. Her work led to a new

of laws that made New York workplaces significantly safer for workers. And those laws had a ripple effect. When other states wanted to implement similar laws, all they had to do was use the New York model. Became the gold standard. That process taught Francis a lot about politics, about how heartbreaking and frustrating it can be, how important it is, how frustrating it can be to be a woman in those circles. Francis found herself being the boss of men and wow, a lot of them didn't handle it well. Francis also found herself working so hard to figure out how to get these political dudes to take her seriously, to work with her and also somehow not be threatened by her or want to sabotage her. Some might say that's an impossible balance to strike and they'd be right,

but Francis did develop some tactics. Okay. Let's hear him. For example, So once I had this state senator shared a bunch of confidential information with her, like confidential closed-door meeting information. And she really couldn't figure out why he'd done that. It's not like they were super close or anything. And then later, he made this offhand comment implying that she was like a mother figure to him. And at first, Francis thought that was hilarious because she was in her early 30s. The press usually described her as like, pretty and peppy and d-de-de-de-de-de-de. Well, and how old was this senator?

I don't know, but I'm guessing he was older than her. Also, she was literally not a mother. It was just a weird thing to say. But then she was like, okay, hold on. The reason some of these guys speak so freely to me is because they see me as a mother figure. The only ones who aren't threatened by me, who are the most willing to listen to me and work with me, are the ones who for some reason think I'm their work mom. And so Francis worked that to her advantage. She was 33, and until that point she'd dressed like a stylish 33-year-old.

But after that exchange, she was like, makeover montage! And she got a bunch of very conservative clothes, and she started dressing like, like, Like a much older woman. Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And the effect was that, yes, she was a young woman who had scary, radical ideas about people not dying in factories. But she no longer looked like that young woman.

She looked like somebody's mom. And no one's afraid of mommy. It's like a reverse queer eye makeover. We're going to take all the... It's a make under. Yeah, we're going to... You know, you're super fashionable and hip, and we're going to turn you into somebody not so cool looking. Yeah, but someone who people are used to be embossed around by a little bit.

If that's what these guys are used to when they think of a woman in some kind of authority position, then I'll be that. Get me that shapeless black dress, please. So she did that so people would listen to her. Take her seriously, yeah. Take her seriously. Yeah. It sucks she had to do that. Oh, yeah.

It really sucks that people can't just be themselves and that, you know, some people get to walk through the world and just kind of and others have to find a way, you know? Yeah. But that's the thing is like, you know, you know that has to be the story. For anyone who's a trailblazer or the first to do anything, you know they have to be spending so much mental energy, not just on the job itself, but on the optics, on managing other people's thoughts and feelings and all that, it would be exhausting.

Absolutely. As a result of this horrible makeover, the press started calling her Ma Perkins. Ma Perkins. Yeah, and she hated that, but, you know, it's better than Fannie, so. True. All this to say, Francis's career was going great. And so was her personal life? Maybe?

Was she dipping them toes in the lady pond? Hang on, hang on. We don't know about that. But this is where things get a little mysterious, okay? Around this time, she met the man who would become her husband, a man named Paul Wilson. Well, that settles it. She was straight. Oh, yeah.

That's true. Norm, no lesbian. Because, yeah, you know, a lesbian wouldn't marry a man. Yeah, it's never happened. happened before. Now I can't think of a single instance in all of human history. If you'd like to know how Francis and Paul met,

I can't tell you because Francis never told anyone including their daughter how they met. What the hell? Yeah. But anyway, they met around 1910. Paul was super privileged.

He grew up in a very nice house in Chicago, unlike the nicest of nice streets. and his family had not one, not two, but three servants. Was it the house from home alone? You wish. I bet you it was even nicer. Shit, there's no such thing as a nicer house than the Home Alone house.

Norman, guess who their neighbor was? In Chicago? In Chicago. 1910. Do I know this person? You know the name. Everybody knows the name. Can I get a clue?

It's the name of a department store. J.C. Penny? No. It's Marshall Field. Fuck. It was Ross dress for lips. Are you familiar with Marshall Field? No, but I am familiar with J.C. Penny.

The way your face lit up over J.C. Penny. I really thought I had that. You did. You did. There was never a more confident man. Okay. Paul had gone to Dartmouth. Never heard of it? Yeah.

That's in Vermont or New Hampshire? No, I think it's in Chicago, right? Hang on. Dartmouth? No, that's in like New Hampshire. Hanover, New Hampshire. Oh, you're right. Shoot.

Boom, boom, boom. Congratulations, Norm. Yes. So Paul went to Dartmouth, which as we all know is in New Hampshire. I heard it's in Chicago. No, you're wrong. Some dumb host who's in Chicago. Listen, I'm going to fill you up with Houston.

Liam and send you flying away, buddy. While he was at Dartmouth, something happened. To Paul? Yep. What? More on that later. Just keep it in your hat, okay? Something happened.

Something happened. And he transferred to the University of Chicago. Paul was quite the stud. He dressed great. He was an awesome tennis player, amazing at Bridge. Could he fly kites? I don't know. Francis was really the one who did that.

But he also shared a lot of Francis's values. He was involved in political reform. He believed in workers' rights. He was decidedly not an asshole. Good for him. You know. I've also decided not to be an asshole. Great.

I have to decide it every morning because, boy, the temptation is there. Absolutely. So, you know, maybe they started off as friends. But, oh my, are you ready for things to get steamy? Ooh, yes. I'm about to bust. Let's hear it. Okay.

In her book, Kirsten Downey says that in December of 1910, Paul ended his letters to Francis with yours with sincere regard. Okay. It's not starting out too sexy, but, all right. They're starting out friendly and really pretty formal, okay? I want these letters to end with like your hot fucking stud, Paul. Okay. Two years later, he ended his letters to Francis with Darling, and he wrote that he longed to

caress her face and kiss her lips. Ooh, okay. Oh, my, so hot and sexy. Okay, now, are you ready? Yeah. Are you ready for a story that's too hot for podcasting? It's almost too hot to say. Yeah.

Okay, everyone be ready to clutch your pearls. One time, Francis and Paul were at a train station, okay? Mm-hmm, train station. And they kissed goodbye. Sexy times. Oh, shit. Needless. to say Francis's family was horrified.

And they kissed in front of everybody? In front of God and everybody. Makes me want to throw up, Norm. Where's the decency? Man. What if we did an episode on like some sex topic? That'd be fun. The first porn or something.

Okay. Do it. Get wet and wild in here. My goodness. Then in 1913, they got married super quickly without their parents present. So how dare they so disrespectful to mommy and daddy? Ew, okay. And Norm, I've got something terrible to tell you.

What? It's going to change the way you think about Francis, all right. Okay. Norm, what's the worst thing a woman can do after she gets married? What's the worst thing? The worst thing? The worst thing. After she gets married.

A real slap in the face to the whole world. Cheat? Cheat on the husband? You're totally wrong. it's when she doesn't take her husband's last name. Oh, that is absolutely terrible. And I have a sound bite for that. You do?

Yeah. No, God! No, God! Please, no! No! Yeah, that's basically how everyone reacted. Okay. And I should clarify, she did change her name.

She just didn't change it at work. But that was wild in 1913. So when she came into work, they were like, oh, so you're Francis Wilson now. She was like, actually, no, I'm still going by. Perkins. Yeah. And people were like, what the hell? Well, okay.

We got married in 2012. No. When? 2013. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, okay. Dear God. When we did that.

Yeah. So just so everyone knows. Yeah, do you remember when we got married? Do you remember the day at all? I do. Are you sure? Yes, let me tell the story. So, when we got...

I was dressed like Mickey Mouse. Okay, you were absolutely not. If you had been dressed that way, the wedding would be canceled. No. So, fun fact for the listeners, I used the last name Caruso for work. Yeah. And I should specifically say for like podcasting and all that stuff, just because the name Kristen Caruso is a beautiful name. Don't you agree?

Alliteration. We love to see it. My real name is Kristen Pitts. And I didn't change it. Yeah. And I feel like at the time that was a real slap in the face because, you know, it's like, who've got saddled with the last name Pitts and you're keeping that. But even then, I remember people were stunned. then in the year of our Lord

2013, a hundred years after she didn't change her last name. Honestly, it was like, I didn't care at all. Well, no. And I would never date, Mary, do anything with a guy who was

threatened by that. Like, that good grief. It seemed like less paperwork, too. You don't have to worry about changing your name. It's zero paperwork. Yeah. You're right. That is. It is less paperwork because you don't even have to do it. No, but at this time for her to do that, I mean, people were scandalized. They found it suspicious, odd, unfeminine.

But, you know, in her defense, pretty ridiculous to expect someone to change their name just because they got married. But also, by this point, Frances was in her mid-30s. She had name recognition as an activist, and she didn't want to throw it away. To complicate things, Paul was getting very involved in politics. And it seemed right that if they wanted to be seen as individuals, they should keep their own last names, especially because Francis was doing, you know, some pretty wild work at the time. The Lerds work. Uh-huh. Some of the people who hated Francis tried to argue that it was illegal for her to.

Yeah. People are ridiculous. It's illegal? Yeah. In fact, this was such a scandal that a reporter came to her house. house to do a story about the fact that she hadn't taken her husband's last name. This was going to be some big expose. And Francis handled that in typical Francis fashion, dealing with a reporter.

She was like, what? Of course I took my husband's last name. I guess you don't have a story. Bye. Damn, since she shut that shit down, huh? That's a wonderful way to handle that. I love it. I'm just picturing him making the long trek out to her house, only for her to be like,

Huh? No, you're mistaken. Goodbye. Well, and it's like, how is he going to prove that she didn't take his last name? So she made it a non-story. I like it. I'm still waiting to hear about this trouble at Dartmouth that Paul got into. Okay, well, you're... This is a real Chekhov's gun situation. Okay. You mention it, and you're not saying anything now.

So it seems like Francis and Paul had a good marriage for a little while, but then it kind of fell apart. Paul had an affair. Oh. Are you okay, Norm? Norm, just a reminder, he didn't cheat on you, okay? I am standing up for the victims, Kristen. It's kind of difficult to know how hard Francis took that, but at one point she wrote him a really mature and frankly, lovely letter suggesting that they separate. Dear Paul.

It was honestly very sweet. It was... You are a stupid ho. No, it was nothing like that. married anymore. No, it talked about their friendship and how she didn't want to lose their friendship, but she just felt they'd be better off apart. She found marriage stifling. She was expected to spend so much time bolstering his career because, you know, in those days, her husband has this high-powered career. She's expected to maintain the home and entertain

guess and like that's really a full-time job but she didn't want to do that do you know anything about like having children was there any interests there we're going to get to it oh okay she wanted to do her own work she wanted to be an independent person but she felt like marriage had turned her into someone she didn't recognize she felt less complete less like herself so she asked him for a separation. And who knows, maybe they would have separated and maybe even divorced. But as soon as she told him she wanted to separate, she discovered that she was pregnant. That complicates things. Yeah, so they stayed together and things got worse. A few years later in 1918, something weird happened with Paul's boss. His boss was John Mitchell and he'd been the mayor of New York City,

but he lost his reelection, took it really hard, joined the military, and there's kind of this weird story about how he was in an airplane, it took a nosedive, and he fell out of it and died. World War I? Yeah. So this happened in Europe? I believe he was still in training. I'd have to look it up.

Interesting. The military said he'd just forgotten to buckle himself in, but Paul and Francis believed very strongly that he died by suicide. And Paul really struggled with that. In fact, he struggled so much that it was a little puzzling. Like, obviously that would be horrible, really hard. But, you know, he'd lost his job when his boss didn't get reelected. But that kind of shouldn't have mattered.

He was well connected. He had good job offers coming in. But Paul just couldn't bring himself to seek new employment. Then he started spending money. Tons of money. Oh, on what? Anything and everything. He struggled and struggled and struggled in an era when mental illness wasn't well understood. Of course, we're knocking it out of the park these days. But, you know.

Yeah, I mean, we're not even in the era of lobotomies yet. This is 1918. Yeah. The truth was that he dropped out of Dartmouth because of a nervous breakdown. That's how it was characterized. And it's likely that Francis had no idea about that. Because mental illnesses were so stigmatized that you just, That would become the secret, the shameful secret. Yeah, very shameful. And so Francis and Paul and their new baby found themselves in a really awful situation. Francis hired male staff to hold Paul down when he had outbursts. She sent him to sanitariums.

She sold their house and moved into an apartment. This was the start of Paul being institutionalized on and off. And it was an even greater reason for Francis to be more. fearful of reporters. Sure. Because again, the stigma is still there. And also, you'd want to protect your family. I'm sure there was a lot of her and him both trying to figure out what was going on.

And how do you explain that to a reporter? And why would you? Well, and if a reporter is going to get on your ass about, you didn't take his last name. Imagine if they found out, oh, your husband had a mental breakdown? That's because he's married to you. It's because you didn't take his name, apparently. It's because you have awnings on your house and people think it's an Italian restaurant. He will keep ringing the door behind.

That's the problem. This also became kind of all the more reason for Francis to aggressively pursue a financially rewarding career. Because the money was damn near gone. Yeah, especially if you're getting him help and you need people to hold him down and he's going to sanitariums and asylum. And Paul would never work again. For a while there, there was hope that he would work again, but it just wasn't going to happen. I wonder, did it say anything about what a modern diagnosis would be for him? I did see something about manic depression, but I don't know.

I mean, there could be something more. Interesting. I always love that stuff. What stuff? I love, like, modern analysis of historical figures and, like, try to figure out. like what they were going through and like what they were suffering from yeah well you loved that book on abraham lincoln about his depression lincoln's melancholy fantastic book highly recommend it and that's all we have to say about it yeah don't want to spoil it okay but the title gives it

it away i don't want to spoil about it had depression and honestly i kind of like that word melancholy yeah let's bring it back folks i don't have depression i have melancholy what do you like about it Sounds fancier and cool. I agree. You know, then you don't have to sing the word depression anymore. You can just be like, yeah, I have melancholy. Melancholy sounds like a song. So, yeah, we're halfway there already.

Yep. So as this was all first unfolding, Francis found herself at a turning point in her career. In 1918, women in New York were able to vote. So they were a little head of the curve nationally. Yeah. And that put the local politicians in a new, weird position, because all of a sudden they had to listen to the ladies. I read a fact somewhere that the first state that allowed women to vote was North Dakota?

That sounds right. I think it was either North Dakota or South Dakota. History owes helped me out here. My money's on Wyoming. All right, let's see how it all pans out. Wyoming? Can I Google it real quick? Sure.

Okay. It's incredible that we have the Internet at our fingertips. And the winner is? Wyoming! What do I win? The territory of Wyoming, 1890. Yeah, baby. So, things are changing in New York.

These politicians need women to vote for them. And Francis knew who she was voting for. Al Smith. She campaigned for him, and when he was elected governor that year, he did something unprecedented. He told Francis that he wanted to appoint her to the New York State Industrial Commission. What does that mean? Hang on. Okay.

Even though Francis could really use the money and she was certainly qualified for the job, she was reluctant to take it. She knew what it would mean to be a woman in that position, and she knew what it would mean to be a woman in that position and inevitably make some mistakes. And she'd have to wear those hideous outfits again. She's still wearing them, baby. Damn, they'd have to get even worse.

Even uglier outfits. So she consulted her old mentor, Florence Kelly. And Florence basically slapped her across the face and was like, are you kidding me? We have an opportunity for someone like you, someone who cares about workers, someone who actually knows what conditions are like for working people, someone who could actually do some good in this world. And you're not sure if you want to take this position. Take it, you stupid bitch. And Francis was like, we don't call each other bitches. And Florence was like, we're both women.

It's fine. It's okay. And that's a real story. Yep. So Francis accepted, and yeah, there was a little pushback at her confirmation hearing, but Francis was so well connected that she was able to push through. And all those dudes changed their diapers and everything was fine. That's good.

Real smelly courtroom. This was wild. This new job came with a salary of $8,000 a year. Adjusted for inflation that's like $260,000 a year, which made Francis the highest paid woman to ever hold public office in the United States. Ever? Ever, baby. At that time, or is it still a record?

Well, no, it's not still a record. Come on, we've got a woman vice president. Oh, yeah. I guess I don't know what she makes, but it's more than $8,000, I'm guessing. All the soda you can drink. One of the perks of being the vice president. That was one of the perks when I was applying for jobs when we moved. to Kansas City and Applebee's corporate was hiring.

Yep. And one of the benefits was all the soda you can drink. Wow. How could that go wrong? And I was like, how about a 401K or health care? You don't need health care when you've got Dr. Pepper. Yeah. Wanna fenta, don't you want to?

It really seems that Governor Al Smith was a good guy and he wanted Francis in that position because the Industrial Commission would be the group in charge of enforcing all those new labor laws she'd been working on. Was his campaign song, You Can Call Me Ow? Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. It should have been. Yeah. If anyone could get that done, it would be Francis. And if people thought that he was a little cool because he hired a woman for the job, well, you know, he'd take that pet on the back just fine.

And his campaign theme song was really good. In that position, Francis proved what a lot of people already knew, that she could get things done. She proved that she could smooth things over by listening to workers and listening to management, which I know doesn't sound like a big deal, but this was at a time when some of the workers were literally just like, you know what? Things are honestly so bad. How about we just literally blow up this building? Should we blow it up?

Blow it up. That's a true story. She literally stopped that from happening. Someone was like, I think I'm going to blow up the building. tomorrow. Well, yeah, I mean, honestly, you heard some of these stories. There's little kids working. I mean, these fuckers won't listen to reason. Let's just blow it up. The solution? Funny hat day. Everyone knows that Pajama Day is the thing that will soothe all the bad feelings. You mean I can wear jeans on Friday? All right, I'm not going to blow up the building anymore.

That's wonderful. So, you know, she's doing great, yada, yada, yada. Eventually she became the chair of the Industrial Commission. But then the political wins started a change in. Governor Al Smith ran as the Democratic nominee for president. Yehaw! And he didn't win. Nope, because we've never heard of him. He ran against a fella named Herbert Hoover.

And Herbert was like, hey, America, you know Al Smith is Catholic, right? Is America really ready for a Catholic president? That won't come for about 40 years. Yeah, America was like, no, we are not ready. Thank you. Because some people literally believed, and this is, I'm not kidding, they literally believed if we elect someone who's Catholic, then we are in effect making the Pope, the President of the United States. And we'll all have to wear those. The slippery slope, Kristen. Yep. The presidential election was hard on Al. He had that awesome song, but he lost the presidency.

It's a real fucking shame, I tell you. And on that very same day that he lost the presidency, some new Yehu named Franklin Delano Roosevelt became New York's new governor. Hmm, he sounds familiar. Alan FDR were buddies. They had a mentee and manatee situation. But still, you know, it had to sting. So now Francis found herself working more closely with FDR.

She had actually known him for quite a while. She always thought he was kind of a douche. You're nodding. Did you think the same thing? I didn't know FDR, so. But I've heard he had some demons. Yeah. She thought he was kind of flashy, full of himself.

But weirdly, she later said that she liked him a lot better after the polio kind of took hold because she felt like it humbled him and made him a better person and forced him to be able to relate to more people. Sure. like the struggles people go through, yeah. Because he'd been like this super privileged, you know, kind of dushy guy and I don't know, changed him. Yeah. Another opinion of Francis's that I really do not enjoy, she thought it was super weird that he was married to Eleanor because she thought that Eleanor wasn't hot enough for him. And so she suspect.

Frances, come on. I know. I know, but she suspected that FDR married Eleanor because he wanted to be the hot one in the relationship. And she thought that was kind of bad character. Francis, we were rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. Listen, don't let that undo it. She was just seeing a mismatch, and she was making her own theories, all right?

Missmatch couple, yeah. How would she feel about the King of Queens? We all know how we feel about it. So all that aside, Governor FDR asked Francis to become New York's industrial commissioner. This was a big step up for her career. She'd be supervising hundreds of employees. including factory inspectors. And she'd be making $12,000 a year!

Ooh, so that's like $400,000? You know, I noticed in here I have adjusted for inflation $230K. That can't be right. No way. Oh, well, she was like, fine, I'll do it, and I'll do a great job. But she'd always kind of suspected that he'd given her that job, you know, because she was right for the job, but also so that FDR could be like, excuse me, everyone, do you see how forward-thinking I am? Do you see how new and cool I am?

I put a woman in this position. And I mean, I am forward-thinking and I am pretty cool. But also, do you see it? Do you see me doing it? Because I did it. He's just like Mitt Romney. Do you remember in 2012? Binders full of women.

Binders full of women. I've hired women. You know, I kind of like this, though, because when I first found out about her, I was like, how did this happen? how did a woman rise to this level of prominence so early? I mean, so many years ago, and you're going to find out, especially in part two, she did so much stuff that we all know and love today. She was hugely influential.

And that was my main question. Like, how did this happen? How did she even get in the room? And it's just funny because, yeah, I mean, it seems like, There were some good guys, but they were also like, okay, how does this benefit me? And I think it just goes to show, like, if you've got the opportunity, take it. Absolutely. If the guy's doing it because he wants to look cool, let him look cool, and then go kick-ass, take names.

That's what Florence Kelly probably told her. Absolutely. She was like, get in there and get shit done. Yeah. And she slapped her and called her a bitch. These are facts. Make it happen. Catten.

So this kicked off a much deeper relationship with FDR. and Eleanor Roosevelt. Francis was always pretty careful with them. She understood their power, and they liked her a lot. They respected her. Wait a minute. What? Sounds like someone struggling for power.

Mm-hmm. Sorry, I heard the word power, and I just had to. Yeah, no, you had no choice. Mm-hmm. Frances wanted to keep it that way. She managed her relationship with Eleanor by being polite and keeping a straight face when Eleanor did really awful things like oversharing and being a little too chatty. terrible, unforgivable things.

Francis managed her relationship with FDR by treating him like a little boy, a little boy with ADHD. And by that I mean, when she had something really important that she really wanted to get through to him, she'd repeat it three times. And she'd always make sure that she had a meeting with him just kind of pretty regularly because she didn't want him to get distracted by like a shiny penny, a butterfly or some bill that she didn't care about. Yeah. A big part of this new job was basically just worrying about unemployment. By this point, it was the late 1920s. Unemployment was suddenly soaring. In fact, you know, it's kind of funny.

It almost seemed like we were about to fall into a great depression. The great melancholy. Worth noting, unemployment was especially scary back in these times because there were zero social safety nets. If you were out of work or too old to work or too sick to work or if you got your hand chopped off while you were on your 20-hour shift at the candy factory, that was too bad so sad. So Francis was sweating, working her ass off trying to do something about unemployment, and all of a sudden, President Herbert Hoover, who'd had the nerve to spank her dear friend's fanny in the recent presidential election, released some very misleading unemployment numbers. Oh? Mm-hmm. He basically told the public,

hey, you know, I know things are looking a little tough, but, you know, things are actually going to get much better here. We've got just one more episode of Kitchen Nightmares, and this Great Depression will be all over, okay? We're going to be fine. Oh, no, it's the Amy's Baking Company episode. Oh, God! Oh, Francis couldn't believe it.

He was lying. He'd taken very clear data, and he'd spun it. And she knew he was smart, so she knew he had absolutely done this intentionally. So Francis did something pretty wild. What'd she do? I've noticed I've used the word wild a lot in this script. You have. Not as often as I've said the word fanny.

That's true. Well, it was her name, after all. So she called a press conference. She told the media that the president had engaged in a heartless deception by sharing misleading numbers with the public. See, that's fucking badass. Yes, it is. People need, that needs to happen more often today. Sometimes I'll read a headline that's like, oh, so-and-so's speech was full of untruths.

And it's like, he was lying. It's called a lie. Mm-hmm. A heartless deception. It's from the language today. And it's like, yeah, call these people out. So good job, Francis. I love it.

Heartless assets, that is. And it's true. Then she told them what the data actually revealed. The data showed that, contrary to what the president had said, unemployment was on the rise. And by January, unemployment would be the highest it had been in 16 years. And after the press conference, Francis was like, oh, shoot, I probably should have warned my boss, FDR, that I was going to do that.

So she called him and asked for forgiveness because, you know, permission was now out of the question. And he did the classic FDR thing. Slow clap. Maybe he did invent the slow clap. But also, apparently this was his MO. He was kind of like, okay, thanks for the heads up. If this plays well, then I'm totally behind you. I've been with you the whole time.

If it blows up on you, I have no idea who you are and I'm appalled by what you did. Who the hell is this person in my office? Oh my God, I can't believe it. J-Lo, I don't know her. Oh, that's what Mariah Carey said. Yes. That is a classic moment. That was a straight man delay.

Joe, please don't edit out the little momentary glitch where Norm had to remember who said that. My bad. The next day, Francis's press conference was national news. Front page after front page. She made such a good impression that from that point on, any time President Hoover shared new employment numbers, reporters would write down what he said. Okay, yeah, because he's the president. And then they'd go to Francis to double check what he just said. And if you're wondering how Herbert Hoover felt about that, I'm guessing he thought it sucked.

Because Hoover. Yeah, vacuum. Vacuum. That is awesome. Big fan of this. You like the spite. You like the truth-telling. Yes. In our last episode about lobotomies, that bastard Walter Jackson Freeman was doing some shady shit with his lobotomies and ice picks and serious craftsman hammers. And I said other doctors needed to call him out like they were on the WWF.

Yes. You want life to be professional wrestling. That's all I want. It would be amazing. Let's all get oiled up. and call each other out. Yeah. Francis kind of did that. She absolutely did that. Absolutely.

And you know what? I bet the American people loved it too. Yeah, they did. Because they're all struggling and they don't want to hear bullshit from their supposed leader of the country. Quit lying to us. Yeah. And if you're wondering, hmm, did this shape the next presidential election? It sure did.

Damn. Straight it did. Francis spent a ton of time organizing and growing new. New York employment agencies. But as the Great Depression raged on, she got a new focus. What we needed was a safety net. Maybe, I don't know, unemployment insurance. She told FDR her idea, and he was like, ew, like what England has.

And she was like, well, it doesn't have to be just like that. We could do something a little different. So she got to work on an unemployment insurance plan that was kind of British, but with better teeth. and then blammo. But that is mean, Kristen. That's not nice. I apologize. It was like British, but with better teeth?

Yes. Wow. You are feeling weird today. I'm sorry. It was a very obvious joke and I went for it. That's true. I was hoping you'd make some British food joke or something. Oh, they do have terrible food.

Okay, I wouldn't worry about my teeth either if I had to eat that food. I'd be like, let them fall out. Maybe it's because I grew up. up with it, but I don't have a problem with British food. That is because you grew up with it. Yeah. I grew up with cottage cheese and look what it's done to me. Look at me now.

Look at me. I am crazy enough to think that cottage cheese is good and it's because I grew up with it. You came home the other day from Costco with one of those giant tubs of cottage cheese. Don't brag to the people. Yeah. And I know what you're thinking. That's too much cottage cheese. It's not.

She'll never finish it. She does. She did. That's so embarrassing. Yep. Yep. I mean, that is a side effect. A sexy side effect of cottage cheese.

It wouldn't be funny if on the side of the canister or whatever or the tub, it would say side effects include flatulence and... Loss of your romantic partner. Divorce. Cottage cheese may result in divorce. Wow. Not in this household. No. I love my...

My wife and I love that she loves cottage cheese. You don't love that I love cottage cheese. As long as you don't force me to eat it, I'm good. No, I've got to keep all the cottage cheese to myself. I only have a Costco-sized tub of it for one person. Sometimes you'll make a recipe and it has cottage cheese, but you won't tell me until I'm done eating it. You won't eat it. It's true.

If I don't know it's in there, it's probably fine. We use the same tactic with the cat and her pills. Actually, yes. because we wrap her pills and craft singles. She has no idea she's taking a steroid. We just want our cat to be buff. It's not because she has an upper respiratory infection. Our little cat, booio, is, she's not feeling too good right now.

She's got surgery next week, so we're all nervous about it. Yeah, they say you shouldn't get cosmetic surgery for a cat that old. That's enough. But we want her to look hot, damn it. The very first Brazilian butt lips on a cat. We're making it happen. Anyway, so FDR ran for president and he won. He won easily.

Woo-hoo, yeah. Francis definitely played a role in getting him elected, and she'd been part of his inner circle for a while. And, you know, if she'd been a man, there would have been no question that she'd be joining him in Washington as part of his cabinet. But Francis wasn't a man, baby. Still, she wanted to be Secretary of Labor. And she should be. It's well deserved the work she's been doing.

Yeah. And you know, there were whispers of that possibility. It still seemed unlikely, though. Women had only very recently gotten the right to vote. We can't all be like Wyoming. The idea that a woman could be a member of a presidential cabinet was maybe too much to hope for. But Francis still hoped for it. But Norman, ambition is disgusting in a woman. It's the grossest thing ever. So in public, she had to be like, what?

Me? No. I would hate to have that job and all that responsibility. I would say no if it was offered to me. But privately, she was like, I absolutely would love that job. And our friends were like, yeah, you should have that job, and we will help you. So they launched a little campaign. And by little campaign, I mean, actually a big campaign that was very well organized and very well done,

aimed at positioning Francis Perkins as the perfect choice for Secretary of Labor. They did a photo shoot. They did a little press conference about unemployment just to get her out there. Oh, look at her. Wow. Some little Olin Mills headshots of Francis Perkins. That's right. She was on a ladder leaning. They did a letter writing campaign.

And the whole time Francis was like, what? Oh, my God. I'm so surprised by all of this. I'm definitely not deeply involved. I definitely didn't know this was happening the whole time. I was just climbing this ladder to paint my living room and, oh, they caught me. Boo caught me sleeping. And finally, in February of 1933, FDR called Francis in for a meeting.

And he said, I want you to be Secretary of Labor. And was she like, no, she had to do the like, I didn't even know this was heaven. Oh, what a shock. I didn't know. Yeah. What a surprise. No, the big thing from this meeting is like, this. The moment, the famous moment when Francis pulled out a slip of paper with a list of every, I have the word wild, I'm going to use it again, every wild thing she wanted to accomplish if she was to accept the position of Secretary of Labor. She told him, I'm going to read you this list, and I want your agreement on all of it. Otherwise, I'm not joining your cabinet. Ooh, what was on the list?

You ready? Yep. 40-hour work week. Yes. Minimum wage. Mm-hmm. Unemployment compensation. Oh.

Workers' comp. Yep. And end to child labor. Yes. Federal aid for unemployment relief. Yep. Social Security. Ooh.

Obviously, she didn't call it that, but you know what that is. Yeah. A revamped federal employment service. Okay. And this is a painful one. You ready? Health insurance. Universal health care.

Yep. FDR waited for Francis to finish her list And he was like, whoa, is that even constitutional? And she's like, I don't know. Maybe not, but it's what I want to do. Are you down? And FDR said, let's do it.

Yeah. In next week's episode, oh, they do some of it. Oh, hey. Hey. I really wish they would have gotten that last one. That would have been sweet. It's amazing what she did accomplish. Amazing.

This is not Francis Perkins' fault. No, absolutely not. Oh, God, I'm wanting to tell you a whole bunch of stuff. I'm saving it, baby. I'm saving it for next week. Okay. Excellent. That was very good.

Really? I felt so weird the whole time. But then I started telling the story, and I was just having a blast. See, I told you we'd work it out in the episode. We worked out our fannies. That's right. Norm, did you know anything about her? No, like even when you said the name didn't sound familiar to me.

But when you mentioned first woman in a presidential cabinet, that's when I was like, oh, okay, that rings a bell. All right. Because I knew it was with FDR, but I couldn't remember the name and all that. Wow. So this wasn't really your healing. situation. It was not. Darn. It was not. I'm waiting for that for that day. Oh, it's

coming. Definitely. Don't worry. Well, Kristen, should we wrap up this episode? I think we should. Kristen, you know what they say about history hoes. We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from the documentary

summoned, colon, Francis Perkins, and the general welfare. The book, The Woman Behind the New Deal by Kirsten Downey and the Francis Perkins Center. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe.

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok at Old Timey Podcast. Join the Reddit community, R slash Old-Ty Podcast, and follow us individually on Instagram. I'm at Kristen Pitts Caruso. He's at Gaming Historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio. Bye-bye.

Bye.