An Old Timey Podcast - 31: Pocahontas: More Than a Disney Movie (Part 1)

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

Over the years, Pocahontas’ life story has become distorted, sensationalized and mythologized. Hell, it even got turned into an exceptionally crappy Disney movie! In this series, Norm separates fact from fiction as he delves into the complicated, fascinating life of Pocahontas.Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Norm pulled from:Custalow, Linwood, and Angela L. Daniel. The True Story of Pocahontas. Fulcrum Publishing, 2007.Henricus. “Making a House a Home in Powhatan Indian Communities,” January 31, 2020. https://henricus.org/2020/01/31/making-a-house-a-home-in-powhatan-indian-communities/.Townsend, Camilla. Pocahontas and the Powhatan Dilemna. Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2004.Woodward, Grace Steele. Pocahontas. Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1969.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Here you, hear ye! You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Norman Caruso. And I've had a terrific week. Kristen Caruso. Haven't we all, Kristen? And on this episode, I'll be talking about Pocahontas. Have you ever blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Or ask the blah, blah, blah, blah. Grinning Bobcat why he grins? Grinning Bobcat why he grins? You don't know it. You don't know the words. You're saying blah, blah, blah. Listen, that movie sucked, but that song was so good. Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

I think the song's called Colors of the Wind. You don't know any of the lyrics, do you? You just like the melody. I love it. Clearly, I don't know much about Pocahontas, so I'm glad we're having this episode. You know one song from the Disney movie. Yeah, if we're counting that as knowing it, thinking all the words are blah, blah, blah. So, Kristen, why have you had a terrific week?

I have actually not had a terrific week. That's a hilarious joke aimed at my father. Everybody, for those who are not in the know, boy, have we had a time here at the Caruso household. First of all. This is old-timey headquarters. Yeah, world headquarters. That's what we should call it. World headquarters.

I mean, we're a global company, baby. We cannot overstate the importance of this podcast. It's clearly a very important podcast. Every person on the planet should be listening to this. Everybody, how has this week been amazing? Well, gee, let me count the way. So we had the election. Boy, that was like taking a Dorito to the Vaj.

I don't know. What? Dorito to the Vaj. Yeah, I feel like if you shoved one up there, it wouldn't be good. right? I don't think so. Especially at the cool ranch, especially like, you know, if you get one of the ones that have kind of crumbled, I guess that's not terrible.

But if you get one of the full triangle ones, you're in for a rough time, sister. Anyhow. We need you on all the news programs. Kristen, what is your analysis of this election? You know what? Well, Anderson. Anderson, it's like taking a Dorito to the veg. I think we can all, no, see, here's the thing. And I wouldn't say it like I was saying something weird. I would want my face to be very serious. Like when people are like, oh, I voted the way I voted because of the economy, it's not because I'm sexist and racist. You know, I'd just be like, well, you know, this week has been like taken a Dorito to the vagina, Anderson Cooper. Thank you for asking. Uh-huh. And I think we've all done that before on a dare, double dare. Yeah, absolutely. But we wouldn't want to do it again. And yet this week we did.

Yeah. Anyhow, so we had that happen to us. So yeah, the election happened. I really am fascinated by what happened on Tuesday. And I can't wait to hear more about what went wrong. I mean, because this was an election unlike any other. Do you know what I'm saying? No, I do not know what you're saying. Yes, you do. No, I don't. How do you not know this was an election unlike any other? Listen, sir, here's what I'm saying. In regard to the I'm fascinated, I don't know what happened. I do want to know. I know what happened. Are you a Democratic strategist?

Do you know what went wrong? No, I'm a woman with eyeballs and earballs. All right. Should probably get those earballs checked out. Anyway. Here's the thing that I have thought about and cried about. And hopefully I'm wrong. Okay.

But I mean, I just said that brilliant thing about the Dorito and the vagina. So what are the chances that I'm wrong about anything? Your brilliant insight into politics. Yeah, obviously. I just feel like, okay, people aren't going to vote for a woman. And that fucking sucks. But here's the thing that sucks more is that now I am feeling like, okay, we just can't have a woman as the nominee. And honestly, here's how nutty I am.

For one whole day, I was like, you know what? I accept it and I'm fine with it. Okay, that's fine. Let's just get a dude in there who believes in, you know, hopefully some stuff that I believe in. And let's just do that because the risk is too great otherwise. Right. And then you are grappling with feelings of like, oh, shit, that means like during the Democratic primaries. If a woman is running the primaries, I have to like take this.

into consideration that like, but she can't win a general election. Well, and hopefully I'm wrong again, but I have cried not once, not twice, but thrice now with like being like, yeah, I guess we just can't have her as the nominee. I don't know what to tell you. And then realizing, oh, so what that means for me in reality is if I really believe that, I'm not voting for a woman in the primary. And holy fuck does that suck. And then I was trying to cheer myself up on my walk today.

And I was like, well, you know, maybe in 40 years, maybe then it'll be safe. And then I was like, I'm going to be 79. Dear God. Anyhow, it's been a week. Yeah. In 40 years, I'll be 79. Oh, yeah. You're right.

I know. I look like I'd be 75, but I'd actually be 79. You look like you're 23, Kristen. That's why I was so confused. Oh, yeah, I know. Well, the other tough thing that happened. By the way, if you're a first-time listener of an old-timey podcast, well, welcome. Thank you for listening.

Can you imagine? This is the first episode, and the first thing you hear is Dorito in the vagina. I hope they're saying, wow, I'm going to fit right in. I'm going to fit in like a Dorito in the vagina. Yeah. Welcome. Thank you for listening. but we are going to talk about another terrible thing that happened.

Last week we did not record an episode because we had to say goodbye to our beautiful cat of 17 years, Queen Boo. Yeah. She was queen, number one, because she met Norm before I met Norm and she never let me forget it. She also, even though she was by far our most senior animal for quite a few years now, somehow she can't kept everyone in line. Yeah, it was, it's, it was incredible. Yeah, so I've, I've had boo, like, basically half my life. Yeah.

And we were best buddies. Yeah. And, yeah, every now and then she would give Kristen this look. You know what I'm talking about, Kristen? Yeah, she would narrow her eyes at me. Yeah, she'd give you this look, like, yeah, I'm in charge. Well, like, I'm the new kid in school, and I'm like, Kat, I'm married to him. When will I be legit?

Never. She accepted you. She did. She loved you very much. She did. Just not as much as she loved you. I mean, you were the number one guy. Yeah, she was my best buddy.

Unfortunately, Boo was very sick. The vet recommended a surgery to try and get her back to normal. She did well in the surgery, but she never really recovered. And so we had to say goodbye to Boo. Yeah, it was really hard. I remember, you know, when Peanut passed away, that was very difficult. And I was like, well, you know what? Oh, gosh, when Boo passes away, I'm going to be ready.

I'm going to be prepared. It won't be that big of a deal because I've survived Peanuts passing. But Boo's passing rocked me to my core. Yeah. Maybe even worse than Peanut. But it's understandable because I loved that cat more than I love myself. Yeah. And I was telling Kristen the other night, I was like, if the vet said boo needed a kidney, I would have slammed my body onto the exam table and said, take it out of me.

And the vet says, this will be perfect. This will fit just great. Your kidney is the size of the cat. That's not going to work. Yeah. I just, I loved that cat so much. Yeah. And all I can say is long live, queen boo, I will miss her dearly.

and she will never be forgotten in this household because she really did rule this place. She did. Yeah. So my sister, so we texted the family because we knew we didn't have long with her. And so texted my sister and brother-in-law, let them know what was happening. And I didn't find out until later that my sister turns to her husband and goes, oh, Queen Boo. Well, Kristen's not ready for the crown. I can tell you that.

And it's true. It's true. Yeah, we're holding auditions right now for the new queen of the house. Yeah, yeah. It's really up in the air. It's real stiff competition. We certainly don't want someone on the crown who's saying stuff about Doritos. That's just disgusting. So I've obviously been ruled out.

Yeah, it is pretty just horrible. Okay. The things you say. So, yeah, it's, it's been rough. It's been tough. But I do want to say thank you to all of. the lovey, supporty, supporty. I meant to say supportive. We know, but we loved that you said supportive. We'll go with it. Lovey supporty messages on Patreon, on Instagram, on our subreddit,

our special timey podcast. And on the Facebook page. So just thank you so much for all those comments and, you know. My experience from, you know, when we had to say goodbye to peanut and now saying goodbye to boo and talking about that openly is you figure out how many people have been in this exact same position and how many people know the pain of it because I've always said like the thing that sucks about losing a pet is your love for them and their love for you is just uncomplicated, unconditional, pure. You don't get that with humans, you know? With humans, it's complicated, it's complex.

And with animals, it just isn't. And that makes it so much more painful when they go. Why are you smiling at me like that? I'm thinking about complicated passings in my family. And I'd like to comment about my grandfather when my grandpa died. This is, everyone, get ready for a legendary story. Okay. Well, I've talked about my grandma before on this podcast.

Well, about eight years ago, my grandpa was very sick and he was in hospital. and wasn't looking good. And he wanted to pass away at home. Yeah. And so they were making arrangements to have like hospice at home for him. Right, because he was in the hospital at this time. Yeah. My grandma was not a fan of this idea.

She didn't want strangers in her house. She didn't want a hospital bed in the living room, which is where my grandpa was going to set up this whole operation. This whole operation. So my grandpa's sitting in the hospital bed. and my grandma's like, I don't, I really don't like this home hospice idea. And then my mom steps in and she's like, well, this is what he wants. We need to respect that.

And they are arguing back and forth about what needs to happen. And my grandpa's sitting there in the hospice bed. And he just says out loud, I hate this fucking family. And I wish I could get that on a t-shirt. That is complicated love right there. It is. Not like your pets. I tell you what, it's funny because we've told that story to a few people.

Some people crack up laughing. Other people are horrified. Guess it depends how what kind of family you have. If you're horrified, we apologize. If you're cracking up, man, you get it. Sometimes things are complicated. Yeah, it's a little complicated. Wouldn't that be great?

Like sometimes for family reunions, people make T-shirts. You know, and everybody's there at the car. cookout wearing the t-shirts. What if the t-shirt said, I hate this fucking family? All about it. Great idea. That's a free idea. I hate this fucking family Caruso Reunion 2025. Let's make it happen. So anyway, we had a tough week last week. And the story about your father, you know, we had to put, we had to put boo down. That was very, very tough, cried a lot. And then we went to have lunch with your family. Had a lovely time. Well, and the other Element 2 is my sweet sister, Kyla, we've decided she's going to start a charity for sad

adults, sad childless adults who have lost pets because she did such a good job. She was like, I'm going to come by today and I'm just going to take you two to the zoo. And then the next day, hey, what are you two doing? I'm just going to come by and I'm going to say, you know, like, so she's checking on us. My parents checked in on us, you know. And then my birthday came. Yeah, it's Kristen's birthday. celebrated my birthday. And then, yeah, my dad at the end of the family birthday party said, you know, I guess he has a kind of short memory like a goldfish. And he goes, well, I'd say you two have had a pretty good week.

Yeah, and I just looked at him like bewildered. Like, what? We put our cat down this week. My cat of 17 years died. And I'm devastated. So anyway, that's a long way of saying, it's been a hell of a time here. Hope you're doing well. Yeah.

Hope you've had an equally good week. Mm-hmm. Who passed away. Election did not go the way I hoped, although I am not surprised, unfortunately. But I will say this. We here at an old-timey podcast are going to keep producing episodes, baby, during this second Trump administration. And we hope that you will. take some comfort in listening to us and thank you for listening.

Oh, that's nice. Are you trying to be the bright spot in someone's day? Absolutely. Oh, okay. All right. I know a lot of people are like hurting and grieving right now about the election results because like it could severely affect their lives. So yeah, I'm hoping that this historical podcast can help you through these historical times we're living in. Oh, he says that with a smile, but I don't think the smile meets his eyes. Hey, listen, historians make excellent politicians. And that's why Donald Trump has always studied his history book so well. Yeah, I don't think he's read a history book in his life.

What book do you think he has read? Hop on Pop. Gross, that's enough. But probably true. And you know what I'm talking about. We all know what you're talking about, Norm. Anyway, let's get into this week's episode. Yes, please.

Because I don't, I mean, it's embarrassing. I don't know anything about Pocahontas. I don't know if I were... You don't know anything about Pocahontas? Well, I mean, a little. Okay, well, actually, this is how my episode starts. Kristen, tell me what you know about Pocahontas. Oh, God damn it.

Okay. Well, listen, you did a great... When I did my Adolf Hitler series... I know. I did pretty well. You did an excellent recap of Adolf Hitler's life. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Pocahontas. Okay, okay.

Now, keeping in mind that everything I know about Pocahontas is like... From the Disney movie? Either from the Disney movie or from my like, you know, white lady education, okay? I was going to ask, did they teach you about Pocahontas in school? I don't know. I don't recall, but let me tell you what I know-ish about Pocahontas. Okay. All right, here we go.

Here we go. We're starting on the East Coast of the United States, all right? All right. Oh, oh, okay. Pocahontas Native American lady, all right. Technically the truth, yes. And then, oops, what's happening? John Brown pops over, white dude, hey.

John Brown? No, not John Brown. John Smith. There you go. Okay, John Smith. So Smith Jared pops over, fresh off the modeling job. Sorry, I might be mixing my media here. Is this sex in the city? Smith, Jared.

I wish. And let's see, my version in my head, which I'm now realizing as an adult was probably terribly untrue as they fall in lerv. No, they probably didn't, right? He probably, oh, God, he's probably a big creepy predator. Now, I'm just realizing he's a big creepy predator. But you don't know. How do you? I mean, I'm just using logic now, Norm.

Okay. And they get married. And then. Yeah. You're a little off. Okay. I'll stop talking now. Okay.

Well, you got a few parts right. Anyway, so I grew up in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, northeastern North Carolina, home of the moth boat, Kristen. Everyone's favorite sailboat. And so Elizabeth City, North Carolina was about two hours from where all this history happened. So the story of Pocahontas is kind of local. And in school, we learned all about how the native. Powhatan people were hostile to the English settlers at Jamestown.

But Pocahontas was not. She was very friendly to the English. And she brought them food when they were starving. She taught them their language. And then when her own people tried to execute an Englishman named John Smith, she intervened. She was a shining example of peace between two different worlds. That's what we were taught anyway. Okay.

And I remember in school we took a field. trip to visit the Jamestown settlement. There's really not much there anymore, like original structures because when the English landed there, they built everything out of like sticks and mud and logs. But they did have some reconstructed buildings, and it was pretty cool. It's one of those living history museums. Oh, I hate those, where they have the reenactors? They have reenactors, yeah.

Sorry. It was cool as a kid. Okay. That's the only time it's cool. Well, actually, I was, I think I was the only kid in class who really enjoyed it. I think even my teacher was like, okay, it's three o'clock. We need to get on the bus. This is embarrassing.

This is cringe. Everyone on the bus. Well, then in 1995, Disney put out an animated film about Pocahontas, appropriately titled Pocahontas. And who, whew, it is bad. What a bad movie. I remember as a child being so excited to go see it, so pumped. and then wow, so let down. Yeah.

Even as a kid, yeah, I thought it was a bad movie. I didn't want to rewatch it because if I had a movie that I was like, that movie rocked, I would just watch it again instantly. Yeah, I wonder what that's about. Plus, Kristen, they had already put out a better movie that year. It was called a goofy movie. Oh, geez. Tell me I'm wrong.

I can't. tell you you're wrong. That's the sad thing is I have to agree. A goofy movie was the superior film. Oh, it's probably the greatest movie ever made. Let's calm down. It's up there. Top five. All right. Calm down. I'm thinking, uh, the godfather. Casablanca and the goofy movie. Sure. Absolutely. Not in that order. No. Three I'm thinking of. It's impossible to rank them really. Yeah. And then maybe how Stella got her groove back. Yeah. Ooh, yeah. Pocahontas had a few good songs, but, man, I just thought that movie was boring, and the villain, Governor Ratcliffe sucked. It's a terrible villain. I was actually watching the movie recently, and you walked in, and you described him as a fat Captain Hook.

That dude was fat Captain Hook. They saved money on the animation budget. I'm convinced. They just stretched him. He had none of the charm of Captain Hook. No. He was just like a boring old governor. guy looking for gold. Anyway, all this to say, I learned about Pocahontas growing up. I was really interested because it was local history. The Disney movie came out and that kind of escalated my interest, despite how terrible the movie was. So a few weeks ago, I was looking for my next topic.

And then I saw a suggestion on our Discord, which is available at the $5 level on our Patreon. That's right. I didn't even plug our Patreon. I was so busy saying ridiculous shit. We had some other stuff to talk about. That's right. That's right. Anyway, someone suggested that you, Kristen, should do an episode on Pocahontas and the Jamestown Settlement.

I should have because I really didn't have much to learn. But Normie C had to swoop in because I saw that suggestion and I was like, oh, man, I would actually love to know more about Pocahontas and the Jamestown Settlement. And boy, let me tell you, Kristen, I learned a lot. You're not going to believe this, but I think the Disney Pocahontas movie, the writers maybe made some stuff up. What? Can raccoons not really talk? The raccoon did not talk in that film. Oh, well. Kristen.

Jeez. Can't even let my joke slide. All right. So Pocahontas was never a princess. She never fell in love with John Smith. Oh. She didn't broker a piece between the Powhatan and the English. English. Her entire life has been romanticized and fetishized over the last 400 years. Yeah, we'll get into that. And that's for a very specific reason. The tale of Pocahontas was appealing to England and kind of used as propaganda to entice more people to move to the

new world and help establish England's dominance around the globe. Oh, gross. I hadn't even thought of that. Yeah, she was kind of like a marketing tool in a way. Oh. And as we have seen, that romanticized version of her life continued well into the 20th century with the Disney movie. And that really does a disservice to Pocahontas. She was a real woman with agency, with her own thoughts and feelings and dreams. She had an incredible life and did some incredible things. And she does deserve to be commemorated.

I mean, there's a good reason why battleships have been named after her. why we have commemorative stamps and coins we have statues we have plaques your favorite thing my favorite thing in the world so with this series let's learn about the life of

Pocahontas let's learn about her people the Powhatan let's learn about their conflict with the English settlers at Jamestown and finally what all of it means for us today and along the way I'll do some fun debunking of the Disney movie because let me

tell you, I just rewatched it and I have some feelings. Okay. I just can't help myself. I do want to mention, before I start, I'll be using a lot of indigenous words and names in this story. I have done my absolute best to learn how to pronounce these words correctly. I'm sure I'll get a few wrong, so please let me know if I fuck up and I will make a correction in our mistakes of shame segment that we're very famous for.

Very famous. Everyone's talking about it. So with that out of the way, Kristen, let's travel back in time. Once again, do-l-l-l-l-l-l-do-l-l-w. Where are we going? What time period? It's the 16th century. The place, the Powhatan nation of Sena-comoka, located in modern-day Tidewater region of Virginia.

Oh. Okay, so before we dive into the story of Pocahontas, I think we should learn a little bit more about her people, the Powhatan. The Powhatan were an Algonquian tribe, which is a group of Native American tribe. that shared similar languages and lived in the northern part of the continent and along the Atlantic coast. Most likely, the Powhatans moved to the tidewater area due to war or for the climate. It gets awfully chilly up in New England. Yeah. Let's head south.

And Kristen, I'm sure you remember living in the tidewater area. We did for a brief period. Is Elizabeth City considered the tidewater area? Close enough, I would say so. The tidewater region is very flat. low ground, swampy, lots of woods, rivers, creeks, wetlands. Snakes, just a whole mess of snakes. Messes of snakes.

Disgusting. It's why we had to leave. Very plentiful wildlife and fauna, which is very different from the Disney Pocahontas film, which shows Pocahontas running up tall mountains and rock formations. There's one scene where she dives over a massive waterfall, and I'm just like, where the fuck are they? I was like, did they even look at pictures of where the Powhatan lived? Listen, they're trying to make the most visually appealing thing, and they wasted it all on the goofy movie.

So, you know, they had to make some stuff up for Pocahontas. Well, to be clear, Pocahontas was their big budget movie that year. A goofy movie was just like a little side release. Yes, we know, Norm. I don't think you do. So anyway, being on the coastline, this region has lots of natural bays and ports for ships, tons of waterways, perfect sites for villages. And it was a big reason why indigenous people thrived in this area. It's also why Europeans were very interested in it.

The Powhatan built villages along the waterways and in the bays. They cleared small plots of land for farming, and they used the forests for hunting. And the people lived in houses called Yehakins. These were dome-shaped single-room structures. And it's kind of cool how they made them. So they would take saplings, which are like little baby. Young trees, yeah. Young trees.

I have that in parentheses right here. Did you not know what a sapling was? I had to refresh my memory. Oh, got to educate this boy. Well, you had Ranger Sherry growing up, your mother, who taught you everything about nature and flowers. I tried not to pay attention, but sometimes it did get it. in there. So you knew what a sapling was.

So anyway, they would take these saplings and they would drive them into the ground into like an oval pattern. And then they would bend them all at the top into the center and then tie it together with like a cord or rope. And so that would be the frame of the house. Okay. Kind of like a giant upside down Longaberburger basket. You know what I mean? I know exactly what you mean. Each Yehekin had two entrances and they were really small. And it's not because Poway Pauatan people were short. It's actually quite the opposite. Early settlers said Powhatan people were

very tall. The entrances were small for weatherproofing. The smaller the entrance, the less weather gets in. How tall were they? The English claimed that they were all six feet tall. Hmm. Okay. And all the English that came over, they were like three feet tall. So it was real scary for them, you know. We've really grown since then. So I was thinking, what if we made our front door really tiny for weatherproofing? I think that's a terrible idea. Do I have to slide through? You'd have to crawl into the house. No, thank you.

But think of the energy savings. Yeah. Just like a little doggy door. Uh-huh. Welcome, come on in. Yeah, just crawl through there. That's fine. Just push the Costco groceries through there. Yeah, just jam them in. You're not getting that bag of Doritos through.

I'll tell you that. Their bags of Doritos are just huge. You bought one the other day. Yeah, I know. That's why it's fresh on my mind. Dorito to the veg. That's right. Okay.

For the walls of the Yehikins, the Powhatan would use tree bark or woven mats made from catfish tails and attach them to the frame. Catfish tails. Like the, sorry, not catfish tails. Cat tails. Oh, okay. I was, yes, yes. No, I'm with you now. When you said catfish tails, I was like, that would stink to high heaven.

That would be disgusting. Now... These walls stink. Yeah, your cat tails. Yeah, the, you know, the plants coming out of the ground. Yes, yes, a much more reasonable thing to use. I was like, holy shit. Boss, how many catfish tails am I going to need for this?

They're really hard to catch. Sorry, cat tails. That's what the mats were made out of. And they would attach them to the frame. And this was really cool because in the summertime, you could, like, remove mats from the wall to make, like, a cross-es. breeze. Yeah.

And in the winter, you could add more. Pretty ingenious, these Yehikins. Well, inside of a Yehaken, a Powhatan family would probably always have a fire going because it provided warmth and light, helped keep the bugs out, and hanging from the rafters of the ceiling would be meat. Mm. Perfectly preserved thanks to the rising smoke from the fire. Oh, what a feeling.

Dun, to dun, done, meat on the ceiling. That's an ancient. ancient powhatan song that they would sing. Yes. The other good thing about having that fire going is that it would cook up those catfish tails so they would stink a little less. And we can all agree. It's a great idea. Each Yehakin was occupied by one family and they slept on bed frames with animal furs for cushioning. Tools and household items were hung on the walls, kept in baskets.

In the Jamestown Settlement Museum, which I visited as a child, has some reconfirms. constructed Yehakins. And if you want to check them out, they do have a YouTube channel, and it's actually pretty cool. They kind of do like a tour inside of it. I recommend it. In Powhatan society, everybody worked, including the children. Men spent most of the day hunting and fishing or clearing land for crops. Young boys, some of them non-threatening, practiced archery in the fields by shooting at birds or rodents who are trying to eat crops.

For the women, every morning they would divide up into groups. and carry out various tasks. Some planted or gathered crops like corn, beans, and squash, which is known as the Three Sisters. Oh. Because each plant helped the other to grow and flourish. Other women would search the woods or the riverbeds for edible plants and roots. Older women often stayed behind in the village to take care of babies or start cooking for the nightly feast. at the end of the day that Powhatan would gather and have a nightly feast.

They were singing, dancing, and storytelling. Storytelling was a very important part of the day because it was how the Powhatan passed down history. They did not keep historical records. Heck, they didn't even have a written language. Stories were told through chosen priests called Chiakros. These priests dedicated their lives to learning. They were like living libraries. In each village usually had at least one Chiakros.

And they were served as advisors, doctors, historians, and even spies. Yeah, baby. Shut up. Well, now, so first of all, I would say, so they did have historical records. Oral history, yes. Yeah. Yeah. But no, like, physical written records.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry about the Austin. Powers clip. I, uh... You should never apologize. I couldn't help myself. But yeah, they gathered intelligence on potential enemies or what was happening in the area.

In the evenings, the Chiakros would often share stories about gods. The Powhatans were polytheistic. They believed in many gods. One of the most important was Oki. He was a wrathful god that could bring illness, crop failure, or disasters. The Powhatan gave offerings and prayers to Oki as appeasement. And when the Europeans first encountered the Powhatan, they mistakenly believed Oki was a devil, which unfortunately labeled indigenous people as devil worshippers for a long time. Oki's counterpart was Ahone, who was associated with the sun and the source of all good things. And every morning, Powhatan people bathed in the river or the stream at sunrise as a ritual dedicated to Ahonah. And when the Chiakros shared these stories in the evening, it was a very sacred part of the day.

Everyone listened intently. One time an English settler witnessed the storytelling, and he kept asking his translator what was being said, but the translator refused to talk to him because he was like, it's super disrespectful to talk while the Chiakros is telling a story. Is it kind of like church or almost like a concert or something where like... It's like talking in a movie. theater, Kristen. Oh my God. You think that should be punished by death, so... Yes, it should. Okay, maybe death's a little too far. But definitely maim the person, right? I will never understand it. People talking in a movie theater. Oh my gosh. Never. Norm, calm down. It's not happening right now.

I mean, it's a big reason why I like to watch movies at home now, because it's like, when you go to the movie theater, you never know what's going to happen. You are not in control of who else is watching the movie. That's true. It's true. The Powhatan spoke their own language. Sadly, it is now extinct. Researchers are continually trying to reconstruct it

based on very limited historical records and comparing it to other Algonquian languages. However, early English colonists did write down about 500 Powhatan words. And some of them we still use today. Would you like to hear? hear a few of them. Yeah.

Okay. The first one, hickory. Oh. It's a powhatan word. Okay. Type a tree. That's what I have here. Yeah.

Yeah, we know. Pecan. Uh, pecan. Okay. Controversial. A delicious nut. All right. You know, so growing up, we had a pecan tree.

And I remember my mom sometimes would be like, okay, everyone gather around, and here's a nutcracker. And we're going to do this fun family activity. where we open pecan shells for four hours. That sounds like a blast. Child labor. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Francis Perkins tried to help you.

I should have reported my mom. What's the statute of limitations on this? 25 years ago, my mother made me pick up pecans in the yard and then open them all. The CPS worker starts sobbing over your story. Very brave, brave of you to tell us this. No, my mom did make some great pecan pies with those. So I did look into, is it pecan or pecan? And I actually found out if you're from the country, you say pecan.

Oh. And if you're a city folk, you'd say pecan. So I grew up in a small North Carolina town. We said pecan. All right. So take your pecan and shove it up your Johnson County butt. Wow. Okay. Oh, my.

Hmm. History hose, please weigh in. Pecan or pecan. Neither answer is wrong. I just want to know how you pronounce it. Okay, more powhatan words. You ready? Yeah. Opossum. Right? You can go either way. Possum or opossum. Some people do say opossum. Did they say opossum? I think they did say opossum. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Well, then I'm being a real asshole. So I've heard it both ways. Some people will say the Virginia opossum. And some people will just say, The possum. Okay. Possum is just easier to say. All right. But it's the cutest little marsupial in North America.

And I love possums. You do. Remember we had a little baby possum stuck in our recycle bin? It was so cute. It freaked me out. But yes, you found it adorable. I did. And I called the nature center.

Uh-huh. And I was like, do I need to bring it in? So I was so excited. And they were like, no, the mom is going to come back for it. Just let it out of the recycle bin. And I did and never saw it again So hopefully Mama came back and grabbed him I actually did a game in a story an episode

On the video game Awesome Possum Which is terrible But I did do a fun little segment in that video Where I went to the nature center And I got to pet a possum You loved that When he only had three legs He was the cutest little possum

Possums are very good animals People need to not be afraid of of them. Are you going to bring a possum into this house? I think so. Oh, damn it. Marlon, Dottie, and Kit got a hold of a possum? Yes. It played dead and it freaked him out. Yes, they were alarmed like you would not believe. Okay, you ready for another word? Yeah. Raccoon. Oh. A.k.a. The Powhatan word for raccoon meant animal that scratches with its hands. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I guess they learned real quick about raccoons. More powetan words.

Tomahawk, an axe, moccasin, shoes made of deer skin or soft leather. Ooh, you're going to like this one. Muskrat. Why would I like that? I don't know. It's a rat. Muskrat translates to it is red because their fur has a redish color. They kind of look like a cross between a beaver and a rat.

I don't know if you've ever seen a muskrat before. I don't know that I have. Yeah, it's like a beaver with a rat tail, basically. Okay. In conclusion, the Powhatans were thriving in the Tidewater region, and this didn't happen by accident. The Powhatan had to deal with the same issues that every other nation at that time had to deal with. And I want to touch on something that I think is important. Oftentimes, I think we as a society view indigenous people as like primitive, peaceful, one with nature, blah-de-blah, blah, blah.

The term I see most often used to define this is the ecological Indian. Oh, I've never heard that before. So think about that ad from the 1970s where the Native American picks up the piece of trash and cries. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is the image we have. Definitely, okay. Yeah. Fun fact about that commercial.

Wow. Wow. The actor who played that Native American, he was Italian. Okay. Of course. Great. Now, it is true that the Algonquian people are animistic. It's the idea that everything is related to you.

Everything has a spirit. Everything is alive. A more balanced existence with the land and plants and animals. You only use what you need. But I think that idea of life, it sometimes comes with a sort of like a demeaning stereotype that indigenous people were simple. But it's not true. They had very complex political systems, lifestyles, economies. Right.

There wasn't one way. Right. Yeah. And the Powhatan had all of that because the Powhatan were not the only Algonquian tribe in that region. There were many. And so the Powhatan had to deal with things like politics and war and diplomacy with these other tribes. And through those actions, a Powhatan nation was formed. in the Tidewater region.

And it was called Seneca, which means densely inhabited land. And the leader of this Powhatan nation was a man named Wahoon Seneca, and he was the father of Pocahontas. So I'm going to tell you about him. Okay. He was born sometime around 1547,

and he was born into the family that led the Powhatan nation. In Powhatan society, succession was matrilineal, meaning status was passed down through women. And sometime around the year 1570, Wahoon Seneca became the paramount chief of the Powhatan nation. Wahan Seneca had several names, which was common in Powhatan culture. And apparently when the English later met him, they didn't understand why he had multiple names. and they're like, who this is really confusing.

How about we just call you Chief Palatan? Or maybe we'll just call you Palatan. So you've got a lot of names. We're confused. So we'll make one up. We're not even going to pick one

that you like. Well, there's obviously a language barrier. Sure, sure. And so I heard one source that said the English simply couldn't pronounce his name. And so they called him chief palatan.

technically he was the chief of the Powhatans, but that's more like a political position. It's not his name. Right, right. It'd be like if CNN referred to President Biden as just President. Sure, okay. Yeah, not technically wrong, but kind of weird. Yeah. Today, President signed a bill that criminalized listening to music loudly without headphones while shopping.

We love President. Come on, man. What's that from? That's Biden. Come on, man. Oh. It's a good one. It is.

Anyway, for this series on Pocahontas, I will be referring to him by his actual name, Wahoon Seneca. One, because I feel like this name has kind of gotten lost in the history. Yeah. And two, because having a man called Powhatan and a tribe called Powhatan would get kind of confusing as I tell this story. and I got to look out for the history hose, Kristen. That's right. Someone has to look out for these hose. When Wahoon Seneca became the Paramount Chief,

the Powhatan Nation had six tribes. And if you live in Virginia, some of these names might sound familiar. There was, of course, the Palatan tribe, but there was also the Arohatuck, the Appomatik, the Pamunkey, the Mataponi, the Yugtanund. But Wahun Seneca desired more,

and he seeked to expand the Powhatan Nation. He sought to expand? He sought to expand the Powhatan Nation. Sounds like someone struggling for power. Oh. But it wasn't only about power, Kristen. This was also for survival.

From neighboring enemy tribes, from European explorers, from disease, from starvation, Wahoon Seneca understood that the tribes in the region had to band together to persevere. And so he brought more tribes into the fold, sometimes through diplomacy, but other times by force. For example, when the leader of the Kikutan tribe died, Wahoon Seneca quickly took advantage and he attacked the village.

Oh. And they were leaderless, and so they quickly folded into the Powatan nation. Some tribes did resist, like the Chesapeaks. Wahun Seneca wiped them out to near extinction before they finally gave in. You're right. This stuff does get lost. Other tribes like the Chickahominy, they begrudgingly joined. They were not friendly with the Powhatan, but they didn't want to cause trouble. Well, yeah, I mean, if you're seeing that they're going to murder you, it's like, okay, I guess I'll join.

Yeah, okay, I'll give you some glass beads every two months. Right. Cake or death, I'll take cake. Cake, please. This agreement was usually mutually beneficial. Join the Powhatan Nation, and we will fight together against. common enemies. In exchange, these tribes had to pay tribute to Wahoon Seneca, with corn, animal hides, pearls, shells, copper, whatever they had. By the end of the 16th century, the Powhatan Nation had

grown from six tribes to more than 30. Wow. Including the Padawamek, the Rappahannock, whole bunch of them. The Powhatan Nation had an estimated population of around 25,000 people and covered 8,500 square miles, about one-fifth the size of present-day Virginia, and its borders span from Washington, D.C., through Richmond, Petersburg, all the way down to northeastern North Carolina. That is wild. And this was all due to Wahoon-Seneca's leadership. He was shrewd, cunning, domineering. He knew how to wield power.

Sounds like someone's struggling for power. Sounds like he's not struggling for it. He's not struggling for power. Now, Kristen, or the history host, you might be one. Wow, the Powhatan Nation had more than 30 different tribes. How do you keep the peace? How do you stay banded together? It's a great question that I just mentioned.

Wahoon Seneca's solution was to spread some seed. I'm about to bust. Ew, what? Political marriages, Kristen. Oh, okay. To maintain power and peace throughout the Powhatan nation, Wahoon Seneca would find a woman from each tribe, and he would say, Wait, hold on.

To him or? To him. Let's get married a baby. Now. I don't love it. In fact, I hate it. Why? I've watched Sister Wives.

This never works out. It's a little different for the Powhatan. I know. I will explain. Sister Wives. You're right. It did not work out on Sister Wives. It took them a few seasons for the wheels to fall off, but boy, did they fall.

So, did women have a choice in this matter? No. According to native oral history, yes, they did. Women had the option to decline marriage to Wahoon Seneca. But marrying the Paramount Chief was considered a huge honor. And it came with significant political and social clout. So most women agreed to marry him. What happened to the ones who didn't?

We don't know. It's lost in history, Kristen. I'm sure their bodies are lost, too. No, maybe I'm being unfair, but to me this sounds like a power imbalance to say the least. And sure. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm sure there are some benefits to it, but boy. So Wahoon Seneca would marry women from these new tribes that joined the Powhatan Nation,

and they would bang and they'd have a kid together. Mm-hmm. And after that, the wife had two options. The first option is you can go back to your home tribe, and then she was free to marry whoever she wanted. Okay. The second option was she could stay and live with Wahoon Seneca in the capital village of Wara Woko Moko. However, the child they had did not have options. They had to stay in Warawokomoko and live with Wohon Seneca, because that was to ensure loyalty to the family.

And when a child was old enough, Wohon Seneca would make them a tribal leader. known as a Warawantz. This would infuse royal bloodlines into the other tribes and would help Wohun Seneca retain power. So, for example, a couple of his sons led a few tribes. His brother led a tribe. Most tribes were led by men.

But sometimes there weren't enough boys to go around, Kristen. So women also led tribes. They are known as Weroonsquas. The Europeans wrote about a Werawanskua of the Appomatic tribe named Oposu No Kwonoske. She was nicknamed Queen of the Appomatic. So these political marriages helped maintain relations between Wahun Seneca and the 30 or so tribes in the Powhatan Nation.

I'm amazed by the similarities. To sister wives? Always, yes. Did he have like a crunchy ramen noodle haircut? I'll have to check the illustrations from the record. 17th century. Did he bleach that thing real good and get a nice perm going? Because that's what I want to know.

No, what I'm amazed by is the similarities to how power was wielded in Europe. Sure. Somewhat similar to the royal families, yeah. That's interesting. Okay. Continue, please. This meant Wahoon Seneca had a lot of wives and a lot of kids. How many wives are we talking?

We have no idea. lot, though. All right. He had a lot of kids, too. But among all of his children, Wahoon Seneca had a favorite. This was not like our parents, Kristen. When you would ask your parents, who's your favorite kid, they always say, I love you all equally. Bullshit.

Norm, you were the favorite, though. I think I was. I have a suspicion. Your brother and sister both say you were. That's true. I was the youngest, though. I was the baby. I mean, the youngest.

Always beloved. Well, anyway, Wahun Seneca didn't play those I Love You All Equally Bullshit Games, okay? His favorite child was a girl named Pocahontas. Historians aren't really sure who Pocahontas' mother was. When the English later arrived, they tried to put together

Wahun Seneca's family tree, and even they couldn't figure out who her mother was. It's a big-ass family tree. Sure. But that is where perhaps native oral history can shed some light.

Yeah. And according to that oral history, Pocahontas' mother was named Pocahontas, and she was from the Mataponi tribe. And she was married to Wahoon Seneca, but not for political purposes. She was his first wife, for love. Oh.

And in 1596, she gave birth to a baby girl. Sadly, mother Pocahontas died during childbirth. And they named her, Matoaka, which translates to flower between two streams. This is probably to signify the Mataponi tribe, which lived between two rivers. But as I mentioned earlier, Powhatan people usually had multiple names. They had a personal name and a private name. And so Wahun Senica also called this new baby girl Pocahontas after her mother.

Was this his first child? No. Oh, okay. The name Pocahontas translates to laughing and joyous one. Hmm. The death of Wahoon Seneca's first wife devastated him. Again, this was a marriage out of love. And so he found a spiritual connection to his wife through Pocahontas.

Apparently, she looked just like her mom. When she was a baby, Wahoon Seneca sent her away to the Mataponi village because he couldn't raise her. He had to provide her. her breast milk and take care of her. And so Pocahontas went to go live with her aunts and cousins. And then once she was weaned, Wahoon Sanika ordered Pocahanas back to the capital village of Warawokomoko.

And she was a very popular child. As the daughter of the Paramount Chief, that's no surprise. Pretty much everyone knew her. Yeah. And she received tons of guidance and support and gifts and food. She was very privileged. But she was also popular. because she liked to goof off and make people laugh.

She even got her father to laugh a few times, who was a very serious man. As a child, Pocahontas worked, just like everyone did. But she was given extra supervision, extra tutelage, extra protection. That's that privilege. So, in the spring of 1607, the Powhatan people had exhausted their winter supply of corn and beans. and so they prepared to plant new crops, and they scoured the woods for fresh edible plants and fruits and nuts. The men continued to go out on hunting expeditions

or catch fish from the rivers and the bays. Pocahontas was about 10 years old at this time. She would have probably been in a group of women gathering food or planting crops. But on April 26, 1607, the capital village of Warawokamoko was not talking about the upcoming harvest, They were talking about a possible threat. A Powhatan scouting party had spotted three large ships in the bay. Traditional retellings of the Pocahontas story would have you believe that the Powhatan saw these ships like we would look at a flying saucer.

Like, whoa my God, what are these things? The Disney Pocahontas movie reinforces this. But believe it or not, this was not the Powhatan's first encounter, the Europeans. By this point, Europeans had been exploring the American coastline for 100 years. So let's talk about past experiences with the Europeans. Yeah. It all started with Christopher Columbus, our national hero, Kristen. Nothing wrong with him.

In 1492, he discovered America. Yeah. Can you believe people still still say that shit, discovered. Of course, he initially thought it was Asia. Right. And he mistakenly called indigenous people Indians. Uh-huh. Because he thought it was near India.

Yep, we kept that mistake up for a while. Later explorers would correct his mistakes. This was not Asia. It was a new world. And from then on, Europe was obsessed with exploring, conquering, and colonizing the so-called New World. Surely it was filled with tons of fertile land and gold and silver and hopefully had that fable northwest passage, a direct route to East Asia. European countries continually sent out explorers to check it out. And they eventually found the coastlines of modern-day Virginia with their natural

harbors. And whoa, look at all these waterways. Perhaps one of them leads to the Pacific Ocean, which is crazy to think about today. That is so funny. A route from Virginia to the Pacific Ocean. I don't know. I don't think you can do that. But I have to look at Google Maps. Yeah, yeah.

That'd be a good GPS. Hey, Google, how do I get to the Pacific Ocean from Chesapeake, Virginia? Probably tell me you get on a boat or something. Oh, my phone just did. Yeah, I knew your phone was going to respond to you. It gave me driving. directions. You're going to be on the road for a while? It's, it looks like it's just plopping me in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. That's great. That's exactly what you wanted. The first

European to make contact with the Powhatans was an Italian explorer named Giovanni de Verrazano. Back in 1524, he was commissioned by the King of France to check out the new world. And so he sailed across the Atlantic and he arrived at what is now Cape Fear, North Carolina. kind of where the city of Wilmington is. Yeah. And apparently, Verrazano thought the Pamlico sound was the beginning of the Pacific Ocean. Oh, God. He was like, oh, my God, I found it.

What an idiot. What's that from? Wedding Crashers. Will Ferrell's character. Nice. Yeah, he's like the huge loser that lives with his mom. He's the one that suggested they pick up women at funerals. Oh, God.

So Giovanni de Verrazano continued sailing north to explore the coastline, and he eventually stopped in the tidewater region, what is now the Chesapeake Bay, and here he encountered the Powhatan Nation. We aren't really sure how that first encounter went, but Verrazano didn't stay long. He eventually sailed all the way up to Maine, and then he went home. The next year... So he didn't really think he found the way through to the Pacific. Well, he was commissioned to kind of map out the Atlantic coast. Oh, okay. Okay.

And so, yeah, he did think, wow, that's the Pacific Ocean. No, he didn't. But okay, okay. Anyway. What an idiot. Yeah, I think he wanted to be like, oh, and look what else, you know. So the next year, the Spanish arrived. And this had the potential to be very, very, very, very bad.

because the Spanish were absolutely brutal to indigenous people. In Mexico, they wiped out the Aztecs. In Peru, they destroyed the Incas. And in turn, the Spanish set up colonies. They plundered gold and silver. They started converting the population to Catholicism. In fact, the Spanish really dominated the new world early on, and it made them filthy rich.

and an envy to all the other European countries. Future topic? Ew. Well, in 1525, a Portuguese explorer named Estavio Gomez landed at the Chesapeake Bay. The Powhatan were very cautious, and they watched in hiding from some nearby sand dunes. Gomez and his party walked off the ship with military drums, armor, helmets, spears, maces, they were decked out for battle. This would be so scary.

Yeah. They were smart to hide. Uh-huh. And Gomez and his party held a little ceremony. And they said, here ye, hear ye. I claim this land for Lord Charles V, the king of Spain. From henceforth, this magnificent natural bay will be called the Immaculate Conception Bay. Shut up.

What? Are you serious? Imagine if we still call it. The Immaculate Conception Bay? Disgusting. I'm about to bust. Why is this water so salty? Kristen!

How do you know that? They're the gross ones. They're the ones who named it that. How does she know that, folks? So yeah, he claimed the land for Lord Charles V, and then they left. This is kind of how it went. People are ridiculous. 35 years later, the encounters with the Spanish got ugly.

I bet so. In 1561, a Spanish trade ship was running supplies from Florida to South Carolina. And I have to emphasize they were not called that at the time. You're right. But I'm just trying to give people an idea of where everything is, okay? Sure. Florida was originally called Big Penis, and then South Carolina, what was that called? I don't know, Kristen. What was it called?

We're improvving. Okay, well, if we've got Immaculate Conception Bay and we've got, you know, Florida the Dong. No, Florida was called Drippin' Hogland. Florida's called Drippin' Hogg. Yeah. And South Carolina is a womb to remember. A womb to remember. I'm not saying these are good names. I'm just saying they were the original names at this time, period. Yeah.

I think they have that on the South Carolina flag. They sure do. That's the state motto, a womb to remember. And Mandy Moore. What's your obsession with a walk to remember starring Mandy Moore? I don't know. Let's continue on, please. Maybe South Carolina was big pleasant Hooterville.

No, you're thinking of West Virginia. Oh, my mistake. Yeah. So in 1561, a Spanish trade ship was running supplies from Florida to South Carolina, when a storm blew the ship off course, and it had to go north. And the ship eventually reached the Chesapeake Bay. And then the captain of the ship spotted a few people from the Powhatan Nation watching them from the shore. And then he came up with an idea.

Let's kidnap one of them. Why? Okay, so the Spanish did this all the time. They would kidnap indigenous boys, convert them to Catholicism. Oh, God. Don't look at the camera like that. I'm looking at the camera. Teach them Spanish.

and then they would have them serve as interpreters. Why did the Catholic Church want all those young boys? It's a real mystery, Kristen. We're still not sure to this day. I'm sorry. They've never had a problem. That's, yeah. What?

Nothing. What are you apologizing for? They did horrible shit. Yeah. I'm not the one who diddled all those boys. No. It wasn't you. So the Spanish got off their ship.

They went up to the Powhatans, and they were like, Hey, look at this food and here's some clothing. These are gifts for your people. And then they were like, hey, you guys want to come check out our ship? Good grief. And so, a few of them did. And during this guided tour, the Spanish took a young boy named Pachikino, and he was the son of a Warawant's chief from the Chisciac tribe.

Oh, you kidnapped a chief son. Big deal. I think the lesson we can all learn from this, Kristen, never go on guided tours. You do hate guided tours. They're very dangerous, as we can see here. No. No, this is a kidnappers trick.

And they're very cringe. Everyone. Okay, well, when I'm trying to rank the things you hate in this world, talking in movie theaters, I think is below going on guided tours. I've named a few things in this episode that I really, really hate. Talking during movies. listening to music loudly in public without headphones. Right.

And guided tours. Interesting that you've also mentioned colonialism and really terrible things. But those don't make the list, but those do. Weird. Interesting. Okay. You got me there, Kristen, I admit. But yeah, I remember we were in Washington, D.C., checking out the Lincoln Memorial

and the reflecting pool, just walking, talking, having a lovely day. and then we see a line of segways, people on segways driving slowly by with helmets and knee pads and elbow pads and there's a dorky little man in the front of the line talking. And I was just like, that is the worst thing I've ever seen. I disagree. I disagree. I remember. I remember you that day. You really hate a guided tour. It's true. but there's something about people driving families. Let's say families driving slowly on segways with full protective gear.

What's going to happen when they're going two miles an hour? We're not sure, but they're prepared for it. They're wrapped up like bubble boy. You looked so smug and so satisfied. I did feel very good. I was not on the guided tour. You did. You did.

Yeah. Also happened in Colorado. We were hiking on a trail, and there was a guided horseback tour that came by. Another family on horseback, which, don't get me wrong, I love riding horses. It's a lot of fun. I just don't want a guided tour on horses. Here's the thing. If you were a member of the Pitts household, on vacations, we did all, all the tourist shit. And that meant that we weren't. went on every guided tour. And if you got hot, too bad. Unzip that windbreaker, wrap it around your waist. That's what you do. You know, you just go into full tourist mode and you're proud of it.

And I still remember one of the first family vacations you came along on, and you proudly told my brokenhearted mother, I will not be participating in any activities. I did say that. And it was real fun to watch my mom pretend to be okay with that choice. She asked me every morning, are you sure you don't want to go on this excursion? I was like, yeah, I'm sure. It's going to be really fun.

We're going to go. I just prefer kind of doing my own thing, like whether that be a hike or go. Or a segue tour, you just do your own solo? I have my own segue in the garage, you know. I segue around the neighborhood. That's just a solo activity just for you. Yeah, was never kidnapped on a guided. to her.

But, yeah, so this happened to Pacikino. How old was he? How old was he? We're not really sure. Okay, but young. Young, yeah. Specifically, the Spanish wanted young boys. Oh, yeah, we know.

Well, another reason was, well, we don't know if it was for that reason. We don't not know. We can't look at history like that. But a big reason was that when children are young, it's much easier to learn a language. Yeah, no one's debating that. That's not why you have to kidnap him. Oh, they had to kidnap him, Kristen.

They're not going to come on their own. So Spanish history says, we did not kidnap this boy. Oh, sure. He came on his own accord. He wanted... We didn't even want him on the ship, but he just insisted. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh.

Then he came on to me is the thing that happened. Oh, boy. He was looking real cute that day. day. Asking for it. These kids, I tell you. Well, indigenous oral history says, no fucking way. He was kidnapped.

Yeah, absolutely. I tend to believe the kidnapping story because the Spanish did it all the damn time. Yes. And not only the Spanish. We can look at context and common sense. Well, not only the Spanish, other countries did it too. Kidnapped young indigenous boys to serve as interpreters. Oh, God.

More on that later. The Spanish took Paki Kino all the way to Spain where he could meet King Philip II. And they were like, look my king, a noble prince from the new world. How terrifying. Yeah, really. Imagine getting off the ship and you're in Madrid and... Well, no, just imagine... Imagine, well, I mean, it's like any other story about kidnapping.

Oh, hey, kids, I've got puppies in my van, except my van. is a ship and we're going to cross the ocean. We'll be there in like four months. Yeah, you're going to love it. We're going to keep you below deck. I'd be fuking every day. That must have been a horrible journey. Yes.

Well, surprisingly, King Philip II was like, okay, great. Hey, can you please bring him back to his homeland? Oh, really? Mm-hmm. Okay, good. So by this point, the idea of destroying indigenous people, it kind of fell out of favor in Spain. Because the main priority was conversion. We have to make them Catholics.

Oh. And to do that, we have to be peaceful with them. It's a lot easier to convert someone when they're alive. Some say it's damn near impossible to do it when they're dead. This guy's just not talking back to me. So from there, the Spanish sailed Pachikinio to New Spain, which is modern-day Mexico City. And he got real sick. And while he was sick, coincidentally.

the Spanish were able to baptize him and convert him to Catholicism. I thought they were told to take him home and they took him to Mexico City. He took him to Mexico City first. Pachikino took on a new name, Don Luis. Great timing, huh? While he's on his deathbed, they convert him to Catholicism.

Yeah. So the Spanish did this shit all the time. They would put indigenous people in very uncomfortable, dangerous situations and then basically force them to convert to Catholicism if they wanted help. Sure. You see it a lot in California later on when the Spanish missions went there. Did they think Jesus was going to give them a gold star for conversions?

Like what are they thinking here? I guess it's just all power. Well, yeah, back then, like religion was very tied into the power structure of the country. So, like, the Spanish were all about Catholicism and the English were... Yeah, no, that's... That makes sense. It's a means of control. Yeah.

Okay. Anyway, Don Luis was now baptized. And then they taught them Spanish. And then eventually the Spanish were like, okay, we're going to send you back home. And we're going to send you with some missionaries. And then we can start converting your people. So in 1570, almost 10 years later, he and 10 Spanish missionaries returned to the Powhatan nation. and because peaceful conversion was the new tactic,

the missionaries said, we're not going to bring any soldiers with us. It's just going to be the missionaries and Don Luis. Don Luis and the missionaries settled along the Pamunkey River, and they built a small structure that served as a residence and a mission. It was the very first European-style structure in the Powhatan nation. And when everything looked good to go, that transport ship that had brought them there sailed away

and was like, okay, we'll be back with some supply. in a few months. Well, after the ship left, Don Luis, aka Pachikinio, he was like, hey, I'm going to go find my tribe and get us some more supplies and then we can start converting everybody.

And the missionaries were like, sounds good. So Pachikino left and the missionaries waited. And they waited. Oh my God, please tell me he comes back with a bunch of people and they murder these missionaries.

They waited. And they were like, hmm, I don't think Don, Don's coming back. Come to think of it, I don't think his real name is Don. According to Spanish history, Don Luis had abandoned them. Betrayal. And the missionary struggled big time.

They traded what little they had for food, but they were now starving, and they needed Pacikinio's help. They begged him, please come back to the mission. and as a last resort, they showed up to his village and they scolded him in front of everybody. These fuckers. And they're like,

you are in big trouble. Wait until the king hears about what you have done to us. And Pocicino was like, okay, okay, I'll come back to the mission. Chill out. Well, in February of 1571, Pachinio,

aka Don Luis, returned to the mission but he brought with them Powhatan warriors and they slaughtered the missionaries. I'm sorry. Now that's the Spanish version of the story. Okay. They were slaughtered.

According to indigenous oral history, Pachikino did abandon the missionaries because he wanted to be home with his family. Yes. He had been kidnapped. He had been kidnapped. But he did come back and kill the missionaries, not for revenge, but according to oral history, because the missionaries were sick. And if they weren't killed, their disease would wipe out more Powhatan people.

Either way's fine with me. I don't know if I buy that story. I tend to lean towards, yeah, he came back and just killed them all. Either way, the missionaries are now dead. Okay? So a few months later, that transport ship came back with supplies and they were like You guys want some cookies

This soundboard is so stupid But when they arrived They noticed some indigenous people Were wearing some of the missionaries clothes And they're like what the fuck So guess what they did Actually those missionaries are nudists now

Don't worry about it guys How does this robe look on me So the Spanish Kidnapped more indigenous people and interrogated them what the fuck happened and that's when they learned what pachikino a.kka. Don Luis had done. He had betrayed the missionaries. He had them slaughtered. Ooh, the Spanish were pissed and they said, we promise revenge. And then they sailed off. Okay. A year later, in August of 1572, a Spanish ship with about 30 soldiers showed up and they took more indigenous. his people hostage, and they demanded that Don Luis turn himself in. Did they have zero self-awareness?

What are you talking about? I'm talking about you kidnapped a child. You kept him for 10 years. He said he was going to help us. Yeah, that's the thing about being kidnapped. You say whatever you've got to say to survive. And then if the head kidnappers are stupid enough to be like, well, bye, I'm going to I'm going to go off, you know, hey, everybody behave while I'm gone.

Yeah, you murder those fuckers. And, you know, when it's history time, you say, oh, actually, I only did it because, you know, those guys were coughing real bad and also their jeans looked good on me. They should have read that book, Why Your Slave is Unhappy. By Dr. Hubert Montgomery. I mean, seriously. Why your kidnapped indigenous boy is unhappy. be. He has got such an attitude, I swear. He's not the least bit grateful for that free trip to Spain. Inslaving for dummies.

I just don't get. All these stories. With that little guy with the yellow cover pointing. I imagine a lot of clip art in that book to help you along. Of course. Oh my God. I just don't understand all these stories of like, we did everything for him and then look how he treats us goodness here's another problem they had Kristen oh please i don't think the spanish were aware that there were more than 30 tribes in the region yeah oops fudge stripes maybe we're picking a fight with an army that's bigger than we realize well no they were demanding don louise turn himself in but don louise aka pakikinio was part of the Chiskiak tribe.

The Spanish were talking to the Chichihominy. The Chichihamony people were like, who the fuck is Don Luis? Yeah, yeah. So it was a mess. It speaks to how little the Europeans understood this complex political system of the Powhatan nation. And now the Spanish had Chikahominy people hostage demanding somebody from the Chisciac tribe. So they're dealing with the wrong tribe. Don Luis never shows up.

And then the Spanish killed all the hostages. Dear God. They were baptized against their will and then hung from the ship. Are you serious? Yes. About 20 indigenous people were killed. So this terrible sequence of events. You think God's happy with you?

You fuckers? Well, they're savages, according to the Spanish, and they need to be saved. Is this saving? Yes. They were baptized before they hung them, don't worry. Great. they will answer to God now, which is really sick in the head to do that. Do you think so, Norm?

You think so? Norm's with his hot takes. I don't like that. One bit. You know, I have decided that taking people hostage, forcing them to convert to a religion, and then murdering them for no reason. It's bad. I don't like it.

At the beginning of this story, I did like it now that I've thought about it. more I don't like it. It's weird. I read Dr. Hubert Montgomery's book, Why Your Slave is Unhappy. And it never mentions this stuff. Yeah. So this terrible sequence of events, it marks the end of Spanish interest in the Powhatan area. Of course, these atrocities were never forgotten by the Powhatan Nation. Fun fact. Wow. Wow. Some historians believe Pacikino, aka Don Luis, was actually Chief Wahoon Seneca. Shut up. Or it could have been his brother.

However, we don't have any evidence, but more than likely, if Pachikino was the son of Owerwan's chief, he was absolutely related to Wahoon Seneca in some way. Okay. So that is the history of Europeans coming into contact with the Powhatan Nation. You know, this story you're telling, it's really like the original. ma'am, this is a Wendy's. When they're coming over and they're like,

we want to talk to so and so, blah, blah, blah. And they're not even talking to the right group of people. Yeah. It's the original, ma'am, this is a Wendy's. Incredible insight.

This is like Dorito to the Vaj for election night, 2024. Thank you. This is a very smart podcast for smart people, clearly. For intellectuals,

classy people, and sexy people. Obviously. You know, if you're not sexy, you can't even play this podcast. You know when your screen's black on your phone, it shows kind of a reflection of you. It's like detection. It can detect how sexy you are. And so when you hit play, it's grayed out.

Yeah. Congratulations, I'm being sexy, by the way. Yeah, if you're listening to us right now, you are so sexy. So, fast forward. 1607, April, Chesapeake Bay, 3. large ships show up. Chief Wahoon Seneca is very familiar with Europeans at this point. The Powhatan people called them coat wearers.

Because, yeah, those 17th century outfits were wild. No, I love it. They were sweating their balls off, I bet. That feels just deliciously shady. Coat wearers? Well, it's kind of like when you're wearing something new, I remember one time I wore like a new knitted hat to work. And this guy I worked with said, oh, hey new hat.

And you know, it's like technically, technically that's not an insult to say, to call me, hey new hat. Feels insulting. Feels insulting. Is insulting. Never wore that hat again. Damn. And I feel the same way. You got called out for your new hat.

Same way. The same energy about coat wear. Technically not incorrect, but also we know it's mean. Yeah. Imagine when they first meet the Europeans are like, oh, new coat. Hmm. Look at these short little fellas with their coats. Yeah.

If you remember, the Europeans were only three feet tall at this time. Absolutely. So yes, the Powhatan Nation was very familiar with Europeans by 1607. Please do not believe the Disney Pocahontas movie where they're like, Ooh, these strange people showing up. They knew about them. Okay. And they had traded with them plenty.

The Powhatans coveted European metal. Hatchets, iron arrowheads, swords, knives, kettles. They loved the guns. They called them thunder sticks. All right. But, you know, the Powhatan Nation also dealt with some real terrible shit. Kidnappings of young boys. Murder of hostages.

Forced conversions to Catholicism. the spread of disease like syphilis and smallpox. So when it came to those three large ships... Was there a lot of rape, too? Sorry, I thought this episode was so fun. I'd mentioned some rape, too. We will touch on that in the next episode. All right, great.

Looking forward to that. So when it came to those three large ships in the Chesapeake Bay, Chief Wahoon Seneca consulted with the Chiaros. And their initial tactic was, let's wait. Let's gather information. We need to know why are they here? Who is it? Is it the Spanish?

According to oral history, they called the Spanish Sons of the Devil. Well, they earned it. Chief Wahun Seneca more than likely believe that whoever it was on these three large ships, they were only here temporarily, and then they'd probably leave, like everyone else did. But he soon learned these ships were not leaving, and it was not the Spanish. It was a group that called themselves English. Hmm. On the next episode of an old-timey podcast,

the English set up the Jamestown settlement and come face to face with Chief Wahoon Seneca, Pocahontas, and the Powhatan Nation. Norm, this has been fascinating. Yeah? Yes. I mean, when I tell you, I knew nothing. I guess I don't have to tell you I knew nothing. It was pretty obvious right from the start. But I am fascinated.

I do apologize that this part was just a lot of, like, world building and, like, like I'm laying the groundwork because there's a lot to cover. Well, when you don't do the world building, that's when you end up with shit like, and then the ships arrived and we were like, what? Yeah, I really wanted to dive into the Powhatan Nation and like what that was all about and how it was set up and because it's super interesting. Well, and you wanted to mention sister wives. Had to get in my sister wives reference.

All you ever want to do is talk about sister wives. I've definitely watched a full episode of that show before. And I'm like, Norm, can we talk about anything else? And you're like, fine, a goofy movie. Any chance I can mention the goofy movie, I'm thrilled. And when I found out Pocahontas came out the same year as a goofy movie, I was elated. Well, the kids needed something after that stinker of a movie. Da-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-da-da-da-da-da-da.

Do you ever hear the wolf cry to the blue corn moon? That's the lyric. Blue corn moon? Blue corn moon. I would have never come up with those lyrics. Well, your lyrics are blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. To the mountain. To the wind.

I do always hate in like songs on the radio when they're singing the lyrics. and then they'll just randomly insert like la la la la or teetoletum or it just feels it just feels lazy to me um i have to admit something i think i've told you this before it wasn't until i was pretty old i mean i was still a child still young but i mean a little too old before i realized that like the songs on the radio had words what are you talking about i'm had words? Did you not hear the song? I don't know what, I don't know how to explain it, Norm.

What were they doing then? It was just sounds. I don't know. Well, kind of like how I'm singing the Pocahontas song. I'm fully confident, you know. It's like maybe we start out with a couple words, but clearly there's no words after that. We'll need to cut this. What is wrong?

This is too stupid. You know the first song that I like learned all the lyrics to? What? Uh, breakfast at Tiffany's. And I said, what about breakfast at Tiffany? She said. Why was that the first one? I freaking loved that song.

And I remember I would listen to the radio. Uh-huh. And I had my tape recorder ready. And I was just waiting for the radio to play it. Oh, yeah. Another song I loved. Look around your world. Pretty baby.

Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. From the flipper soundtrack. Oh. See. Okay, I did it again. I was singing along. No words needed. But you know what? I too know your pain, Norm. The worst was when you were right by your tape recorder and you had it. You were prepared for that moment. But the F&DJ felt the need to talk over the first couple beats of the song. So you had like, you know, Hey, I'm Mike in the morning. Hey, you're listening to 89.9 WCXL. Yeah.

I'm like, shut up and let me hear the flipper song. Mix 93.3. Kansas City. Okay, that'll blow some minds there because that was really good. I'm just saying. Way to go, Kristen. Thank you. Once again, thank you for all your kind words about Queen Boo. Yeah.

Anyway, thank you all for listening. We're back, baby. Old Timey Podcast is back. I do want to say, you know, just a big thank you to everybody because it's pretty cool that we have a job where we can do something like that. And people were so nice. You know, we tried to work that week when we lost boo. And it was just, it was impossible. Like, we couldn't do anything. It was very hard to be in the house. Yeah. Yeah, it was really hard. Because you feel like something's missing. Well, and something is missing. Something was missing, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, so I appreciate everyone's supportive comments and, you know, giving us that grace in time to be able to grieve. And, yeah, this was a tough episode to write because I remember I started doing the research when Boo was sick. Yeah. And I remember she had her surgery coming up. And I remember sitting in the basement with her and reading my poker. Honest Books. Yeah.

So this whole series is dedicated to Queen Boo. Queen Boo. Boy, she would not approve of some of the things that I have added in, but that kind of is fitting for our relationship. She would have given you that glare. Yeah, that glare. Norm, I do want to wrap up with some reviews. Oh, I'm glad you're bringing this back.

I think it's fun. I do think it's fun, too. everybody, I have compiled three reviews that I'd like to read to you. They are five-star reviews, naturally. The reviews of this podcast, if you have not rated or reviewed us, please do. Please give us a five-star rating. Really helps out this small independent podcast. It sure does.

I have selected three reviews. These first two, I really enjoy them, because these reviewers clearly were on a time crunch. Okay, they didn't have... Time crunch. They were, you know, they were pressed for time. Were they in line at Subway? They might have been in line at Subway just about to place their order. What do you want on your sandwich, ma'am?

But they were like, hang on, let me write this review real quick! Okay? This first one comes from Kate from New Orleans. Title? Great! The body of the review reads, C title, period. Thank you, Kate.

Kate, say no more. Say no more. You said it all, baby. Great. Great. This next, very concise review comes from Darza. Five stars. Title?

Funny. The body of the review reads, This podcast is so funny. Thank you, Darza. Thank you, Darza. Yeah, again, no more words needed. We say. How can I describe an old-timey podcast?

Great, funny. What else do we have? This one comes from Meg 2001. Title? Meg? I love learning fun facts. Hey. The body of the review reads,

Kristen and Norm have done such a great job with this show. I enjoy the range of topics! Four exclamation points! Four exclamation points! She really enjoys the range of topics! Hey, you know, that's great. I do like that we can go from a seven-part series on Lucille Ball

to one episode of Australians machine gunning emus. Yes, yes. There's truly no limits on this podcast. And then a very smart man inventing a water gun. There we go. We've got it all, baby. So thank you all. We appreciate the reviews. If you haven't already and you're in line at Subway,

please do it right now. Be real concise. Just one word works, you know, clearly. when they're like, how many tomatoes do you want on this BMT, write one word, hit submit, you're good to go. And then they're like, chips and drink? Do you want chips and drink? You're getting hungry, aren't you? Yeah, I think I am. I'm getting so hungry I'd eat at Subway. Oh, no. Okay, let's wrap up. Which I have not eaten that in a long time.

You know what they say about history hoes? We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from The Books, Pocahontas and the Powhatanus. by Camilla Townsend, Pocahontas by Grace Steele Woodward, and The True Story of Pocahontas, the other side of history by Dr. Linwood Little Bear Custolo and Angela L. Daniel Silver Star. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts, and while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey-timey.

podcast. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok at Old Timey Podcast. Join the Reddit community, R slash Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. She is the lovely Kristen Pitts Caruso. Hey. I go by Gaming Historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio.