An Old Timey Podcast - 33: Was Pocahontas a Spy?? (Part 3)

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

Chief Wahunsenaca was in a tough spot. English settlers were camped out nearby, desperate for food but heavily armed. He thought he might bring them under his fold by offering them food and community. To help ensure meetings remained peaceful, he sent his favorite daughter, Pocahontas, as a sign of trust. Over the next year, Pocahontas frequently visited Jamestown. She brought food, taught the settlers her language, and played with the English kids.Despite this offering, John Smith, the leader of the settlers, wasn’t willing to cede control. He made false promises. He reneged on negotiations. And he even got a lil’ creepy with Pocahontas!Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Norm pulled from: “Captain John Smith - Historic Jamestowne Part of Colonial National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service),” n.d. https://www.nps.gov/jame/learn/historyculture/life-of-john-smith.htm.Custalow, Linwood, and Angela L. Daniel. The True Story of Pocahontas. Fulcrum Publishing, 2007.“History Timeline | Historic Jamestowne,” n.d. https://historicjamestowne.org/history/jamestown-timeline/.Townsend, Camilla. Pocahontas and the Powhatan Dilemna. Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2004.Woodward, Grace Steele. Pocahontas. Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1969.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Here ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Norman Caruso. And I know everything there is to know about windshield wipers. It's Kristen Caruso. Well, a nice little reference to our new bonus episode. Yeah. Well, on this episode, it's part three of my series on Pocahontas. Woo-hoo. I'm excited. Oh, yeah? Yeah.

Why are you so excited? Because... What if it's horrible? Well, it could be. But last week... You made a fool out of me. You ended the episode with a nice little dramatic tale that I bought hook, line, and sinker. And then you told me it was all made up bullshit and that you were going to save the real story for this week. That's right. So I'm excited. But first, I have to brag about our brand new episode on Patreon. What? A new episode on Patreon? That's right, folks. At the $5 level on our Patreon, you get a monthly bonus episode. it's a video episode so you get to look at it and listen to it. Can you believe it? It's true.

And you're talking about windshield wipers. I know it sounds boring, folks. Well, let me tell you something. If you were a fan of my previous podcast, let's go to court. This is the bonus episode for you. It is a legal battle. This poor fella, I mean, he damn near loses his shorts over this legal battle. I shouldn't say much more than that. Look, all I can say is whenever it starts raining and I'm driving and the windshield wipers come on. My immediate thought is, wow, how do they make it do that? And you're going to find out by listening to our bonus episode. Kristen goes into the nitty-gritty of how windshield wipers work.

No, I false. I do not. I'm like, blah, blah, boring stuff. Now let's get to the arguments and the fights and the stealing of ideas. And that's what happened. Also on that bonus episode, I nearly puked, which... It's true. People who have listened to that bonus episode already don't know this.

But toward the end here, I made a mistake. That episode, I had four beverages. I had an iced tea, iced coffee, and a Coke Zero, and a water. Did I touch the water? Nope, I didn't just drink a caffeine cocktail, which was disgusting. And then for our question, for our Discord, which we read aloud on that episode, we asked, what's the grossest thing anyone has ever brought to Thanksgiving dinner? And boy, did we get some answers.

And it did things to my stomach, folks. So I powered through those answers you sent in. Wow, those were gross. And then, you know, I had some toilet time. And then we said, Tudaloo, Tata, Cheerio, and Kristen hauled ass to the toilet and puked her guts out. True story. I don't think that's going to make anyone join the Patreon, but it is what happened. There you go.

Well, they might join at the $10 level because... Why? What do you get at the $10 level? Chris, I'm trying to help you with your pitch here. Oh, excuse me, I thought I did an amazing job. At the $10 level, you get all of that. That's right. You get access to the Discord.

You get the monthly bonus episode. You also get a card autographed by us plus stickers, plus we are doing monthly trivia, which is so much fun. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. And also, you get ad-free episodes of this. podcast right here and you get them a day early and you get the video version of them. Of every single episode so you can see how gorgeous Kristen looks today. Oh, goodness.

But enough about her. Enough about this top I'm wearing. Yeah, I got it at T.J. Max three years ago. Yeah, it's holding up great. Okay, stop. Stop asking. I bought this at Costco about two weeks ago and it has been washed and now it is King baby size on me. I was going to say, it could use a sweater shaver. I, you know, it's... It's real tight on me now, folks. So if you want to see Norm in his tight little sweater, you know what to do. All right. Now, if that doesn't bring him in, I don't know what will. Do you know why I call tight shirts king baby size? Isn't it because of your exchange student from

back in the day? We had a Japanese exchange student. When my brother was in high school and I was in middle school. He spent the summer with us. And I think my brother had a shirt on that was like really tight. And the Japanese exchange student whose name was Takeshi laughed at him and said, King baby size. And I was like, that's perfect. That is wonderful. Not, hey, that's way too tight on you. Not any of that. Just you are the king baby. King baby. Yep. Love it. Anyway, Should we get into this episode? Yeah. The first two episodes of my Pocahontas series

explained what life was like for the Powhatan Nation and the English in the 16th century. It was a lot of world building. What can I say? I'm a context connoisseur. You really are. I am. I kind of want to make a t-shirt that just says,

context, exclamation point. Yeah. I'm all about it. I need to know who, What, when, where, why, about everything. You know, I gotta say, I love the irony of a shirt that says just context with no actual context about, like, what the podcast is, what this is about. Yeah. Okay, great.

Yeah. That's the joke. Oh. That's the joke. Sorry. But for this episode, we are ready to bite into the juicy meat of this story. But before we do... Okay, well, everyone, I don't know how this edit's going to pan out, but I've got tragic news, okay?

And if you're not sitting down, you should probably sit down. If you don't have a hanky, you should probably ask a nearby gentleman for the use of his hanky. But the soundboard has failed us. Well, hang on. Let me test the sounds. Oh. That's working. Okay.

Well, what exactly is not working? The voice changer is not working. Oh, okay. Well, everyone return that hanky to that gentleman, and you can stand up now. I don't think it's that big a deal. The voice changer isn't working. Norm, just do previously on an old-timey podcast. I'm going to have to fake it until you make it.

Okay, do it. Here we go. Previously on an old-timey podcast. That was pretty good. Thank you. We learned about how the English entered the colonization game. Oh. The worst game ever.

Their first attempt at a colony was on Roanoke Island, located in what is now called the Outer Banks of North Carolina. And it did not go well, Kristen. There were hostilities between the English and the local indigenous tribes. There was bad weather and a severe lack of food. When a few colonists went back to England to resupply, war with Spain prevented them from returning. To this day, we still don't know what happened to the lost colony. About 16 years later, the English would try again, this time in the area we now know as the Chesapeake Bay of Virginia.

They would be entering the land of chief Wahoon Seneca, father of Pocahontas and the paramount chief of the Powhatan nation, a chiefdom of more than 30 Algonquian tribes. But this time around, the English were going to do things differently. They understood that they needed the help of indigenous people in order to survive. Hopefully, they could teach the English how to work the land. But the English also wanted to put indigenous people to work, into great. them into English society via baptism and pay taxes to King James I. On the other side, Chief Wahoon Seneca was fine with visitors. By this point, Europeans had been exploring the area for almost 100 years, but Wahoon Seneca was not interested in the English permanently settling

on his land. Worlds collided. In 1607, the English set up a settlement inside of a triangular Fort on a swampy, mosquito-ridden peninsula. Great choice. They called it Jamestown. Settlers expected to find tons of gold, silver, natural resources, horny native women begging to be rescued, and more. But then reality set in. There was no gold and silver.

Infighting among the leadership council. Hostilities with the Powhatan Nation. And bad water that caused bloody diarrhea and death. By the summer of 1607, it was clear that the Jamestown settlers wouldn't survive the winter without help. So a group of colonists sailed back to England for additional supplies and men. In the meantime, the people that remained tried to survive. And through these hardships, a leader emerged. His name was John Smith, a former mercenary and a member of the Leadership Council.

John Smith understood the importance of working with the local tribes and found a consistent trade partner in the Chickahominy tribe. Their offer of corn allowed the Jamestown colony to stabilize. But in December of 1607, John Smith traveled too far down the Chickahominee River and was captured by Chief Wahoon Seneca's brother, Opie Chancon. John Smith was paraded around the Powhatan Nation as a prisoner before finally coming face to face with the Paramount Chief himself. Chief Wahoon Seneca.

He would decide John Smith's fate. According to John Smith, Wahoon Seneca ordered him to be executed. Uh-oh. But right before Powhatan warriors could club him to death, Chief Wahun Seneca's 10-year-old daughter, Pocahontas, dove on him and shielded his head. Pocahontas begged her father to spare his life. Chief Wahun Seneca was so moved by this act, he let John Smith go. It was an incredible, dramatic moment in history, immortalized in the 1995 Disney film Pocahontas.

And on this episode of an old-timey podcast, I'll tell you why that story is bullshit and what actually happened. I went to my window and I was like, whoa, there's some bullshit happening. Do you ever see that Onion video news story of it was like breaking news, some bullshit happened? Oh, no. It's pretty funny. It's from like 15 years ago, but... Many of our references are. That was my favorite part of the video.

Oh, I love it, Norm. I love it. Tell us how wrong we are. Go ahead and destroy us. We're ready. You Disney adults aren't going to like what I'm about to say. It pierces through the narrative of Pocahontas. So we don't use all the colors of the wind?

Is that what you're trying to tell me? Can you paint with some of the colors of the wind? Just a few. Not all of them. Kristen, why is John Smith full of it? Today, most historians agree that the story of Pocahontas saving John Smith from execution is probably made up. But why? Okay.

First, let's look at the sources. The only person that ever wrote about the epic encounter between Chief Wahoon Seneca and John Smith was... John Smith? John Smith. Okay. He wrote about it. several times. So the first time he wrote about it was in 1608, the following year. He wrote a very detailed letter to a friend about his experiences in Jamestown up to that point. And it was

published later that year under the title, A True Relation of Virginia. Wow, very catchy. What's interesting about this letter is that John Smith didn't know it was going to be published. Oh. So he didn't really have any reason to embellish any of his stories. And in that letter, John Smith does talk about his meeting with Chief Wahoon Seneca. But there's no story of Pocahontas saving him from execution. And then in 1612, when John Smith was back in England, he published a book entitled, A Map of Virginia with a description of the country, the commodities, people,

government and religion. Oh, so catchy. That's a long-ass title. So this book was written at a time when Londoners were eager for more information about the Jamestown colony because people were kind of interested in maybe moving. Okay. And once again, in that book, John Smith does not mention Pocahontas saving him. Does he mention this attempt at execution at all? I'm getting to it.

Oh, I'm sorry. Keep your little panties on. Ew, don't. That is great. Gross. That is gross. Keep your... Pantaloons. Keep your pantaloons.

Keep my bloomers on. Anything. But that word. Keep your halter top on, Kristen. So finally, in 1624, John Smith published a book entitled, The General History of Virginia. And in that book, he mentions for the very first time that Pocahontas saved his life. 17 years after the event allegedly took place. Well, you know, sometimes that kind of thing slips your mind. Hmm, yeah.

What an odd thing to say. And you might be saying, but nor may see. Why would John Smith make this up? I'll tell you why. For one, and this is something we talked about on the last episode, it's an incredible story. Yeah, it's a great story. And by 1624, when the story was first published, Pocahontas had become somewhat of a celebrity in England.

She was one of the good ones. Oh. Exceptional among her people. A friendly savage who wanted to help the English. What's a better story than Pocahontas saving an Englishman from execution by her own people? Pushing a story like that can only add fuel to the fire, right? And John Smith got away with it because, spoiler alert, everyone else involved in the story was dead by 1624. But not Pocahontas.

She was dead. Oh. No one could refute his claims. Okay. Sorry, that's why I said, spoiler alert. Okay, so, yeah, he just wanted to capitalize on a famous name. Yeah. Gross.

Another clue this was made up. John Smith also wrote about his adventures around the world, and there seems to be a pattern of stories about beautiful women saving him from disaster. Fuck off, John. So, for example, when John Smith was sold into slavery in the Middle East, a beautiful young Muslim woman wanted to marry him and begged that he be treated well. Oh. Oh. When John Smith was making his way back to England after he escaped slavery, a French woman took care of him after a shipwreck.

Oh. You getting turned on over there? No. You're looking at me with this scowl. Well, it's just so obnoxious. And then, in The New World, John Smith is saved from execution by the young Powhatan princess. A 10-year-old. Pocahontas.

Yeah. No, no. What, she was 11? Is that what you're about to tell me? She was older and hot and sexy. Ew, gross. More on that later. Oh, gosh.

Jesus. But wait, there's more. John Smith's story also doesn't hold up with native. oral history. Of course it doesn't because he made it up. Well, I just got to prove the doubters wrong. Okay. All right. Very good. Go ahead. So according to John Smith, he claimed he took part in a religious ceremony. He talked with Chief Wahoon Seneca. He had a giant feast. And then he was going to be executed. The after dinner celebration. Right. But members of the Mataponi tribe, one of the few surviving tribes from the Powhatan Nation, claimed that things would have never happened in that order.

In fact, the Powhatan did not execute prisoners of war. Only criminals were executed. And this is backed up by writings from an English boy who lived with the Powhatan people for several years. And he described how they would execute criminals. Okay. Finally, let's just say hypothetically, John Smith was going to be executed. All right. Pocahontas would definitely have not been in the room.

An execution was considered a religious ritual. Children would not have been allowed to see such a thing. So how could she have even saved John Smith? Unfortunately, over the next several hundred years, no one really questioned John Smith's story. And in turn, it showed up all over the place in books, paintings, TV shows, movies, like Disney's Pocahontas. I hate this. So here's one example. In 1870, French artist Victor Neelig,

painted a picture entitled Pocahontas and John Smith. In the painting, Pocahontas is kneeling over John Smith, putting out her arm, stopping a Powhatan warrior from clubbing John Smith over the head. And Pocahontas is depicted as a beautiful, topless adult woman, when in reality, she was 10 years old. Oh, so what you would have preferred is some child porn in this painting. Is that what you're saying, Norm? No. That's what you're advocating for, Norm? No.

We totally get it. We totally get it. How dare you? I would just like to interject that everywhere I go, all these men are always falling in love with me and saving me from very dramatic things. For you? Whoa. Whoa. I do not like how surprised you sound because this is something that happens to me all the time.

and I'd like someone to paint this, okay? It's just me being very hot and a little vulnerable. You're on a chase lounge? Yeah, being saved by a variety of hot dudes. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Interesting.

Please don't question this. I don't think I can. Yeah, you can't because it all really happened. As long as you write it down, I believe you. Okay. Okay, something else interesting about this painting. Chief Wahoon Seneca is in the painting as well, and he's kind of standing over the scene. Sure.

But he's wearing a hide shirt, which is normally worn by indigenous people of the Great Plains. The Powhatan did not wear hide shirts. Okay. So the whole thing's just wrong, Kristen. The whole painting is just wrong. So now that we know all of this, what actually happened at that meeting between Chief Wahoon Seneca and John Smith? Well, they did have a conversation, and Pocahontas was probably there to witness it. We know that Chief Wahoon Seneca was surrounded by his wives and children.

During their conversation, Chief Wohun Seneca wanted to know why the English were inhabiting his land. And by now, John Smith was fully aware that Chief Wahun Seneca did not want the English there. So he lied. We touched on this a little bit in the last episode, but I'll go over it again. John Smith said, oh, we're just hiding from the Spanish. And once my friend Captain Newport gets back from England, we will head home. But Chief Wahoon-Sinacob pressed them. He knew the English still had one ship sitting in the Chesapeake Bay, the discovery.

And so he asked John Smith, well, why don't you just fuck off in that ship? Mm-hmm. And John Smith lied again. He's like, oh, the discovery. Yeah, that ship, unfortunately, it's leaking and it needs repairs. By the way, we've been looking for a way to get to the Great Salt Sea, aka passage to the Indian Ocean. Do you know how we can get there? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Just go down past Florida. Yeah, that's where you'll find it. Take a ride on Fire Tower Road. Uh-huh. And if you can tell us how to get there, our king, King James I first, will reward you handsomely. Well, Chief Wahoon Seneca was confused because, he was like Great Salt Sea. Yeah.

That's not a thing around here. Never heard of it. Uh-huh. But now he had to decide what to do with John Smith in the Jamestown settlement. It was clear the English weren't going to leave. Chief Wahoon Seneca couldn't just kill the English because he feared retribution. And admittedly, he kind of liked John Smith. He certainly was brave to travel this far into Powhatan territory.

It was a respect thing. Okay. Perhaps the English and the Powhatan Nation could work together. Hmm. They had a common enemy in the Spanish. Plus, the English had something Chief Wahoon Seneca wanted real, real bad, guns. Oh. Thundersticks, as they called them.

So he would certainly like to have those for neighboring enemy tribes. Chief Wahoon Seneca ultimately felt like his best option was to try and control the English. contain them, isolate them, keep a close eye on them. So he made John Smith an offer. James Town should join the Powhatan Nation. Oh, wow. Yeah. What do you think of that? I love that. That's kind of cool. Pretty clever, pretty sneaky. I think it's very smart. Good politics.

Great politics. Yeah. Well, in order to do that, Chief Wahoon Seneca would adopt John Smith as his son. Holy shit. And make him the wearerwance, aka the tribal leader of Jamestown. Oh, man, but this is what the English had always feared, right? Very good job, Kristen. Yes, the English were terrified of this happening.

But they would become natives. Yeah. John Smith. Chest starts itching. Uh-huh. Rips his shirt open. Oh, he's a savage now. Oh, wow.

AKA a werewolf, according to the English. I liked it when you described it like they were afraid that the English would be like bit by zombies. Oh, all of a sudden I'm a Native American now. Or a vampire. Uh-huh. Just name your monster. It's all very real. Name your monster and the English thought that's what the indigenous people were.

Well, in addition, Chief Wahoon Seneca offered the English some better land. It was a territory known as Kappa Hawasik. The peninsula where Jamestown was located sucked ass. Well, yeah, they should have known that this like really great location that seemed so amazing. Like if no one lived there, maybe it wasn't so great. But anyway, continue. If you recall from episode two, Wynchapunk, the leader of the Paspahe tribe, was like, ooh, you really should have talked to me before settling down there because it really sucks.

We don't live there. Yeah, there's a reason we don't live there. Yeah. Kappa Havasik offered fresh water. water, tons of seafood, all you can eat, baby. Oh. It was also further upriver, an even better defensive location against the Spanish. But more importantly, for Chief Wahoon Seneca, Kappa Hawasik was much closer to his village

of Ware Wokomico, so he could keep a very close eye on the English. Chief Wahoon Seneca also promised John Smith that he would supply Jamestown with plenty of corn and plenty of venison for the winter. And as a tribute payment, hey, how about the English, give me some metal and give me some weapons? Sure. And what better way to contain his new tribe than to ensure he had all of their weapons? Yeah. So this offer was business as usual in the Powhatan Nation.

It's what Chief Wahoon Seneca usually did when new tribes entered his chieftain. And it was mutually beneficial. The Powhatan would help the English survive. In turn, the English would supply the Powhatan with rare metals and weapons and provide protection against the Spanish and neighboring enemy tribes. But for John Smith, he was like... Hold up. Wait a minute. Hmm.

Because if you recall, the English expected to make the Native Americans their subordinates. Yeah. And now Chief Wahoon Seneca was flipping the script. Yeah. According to John Smith, He said he would consider it. John Smith, your people are dying of diarrhea. Like, I get why you wouldn't want to give up all your weapons and all your power, but what other choice do you really have here?

Excellent observation, Kristen. Thank you. Secretly, John Smith was not going to allow Jamestown to join the Powhatan Nation. He wasn't going to move to Kappa Hawasik. He was probably insulted at the very idea of being a subordinate to Chief Wahoo. Synecah. Well, I'm sure he was. A lot of people came over thinking, oh, we're going to show up, take the gold bars that are just laying out in the sand here. And, oh, all these ladies are going to be so horny for us. They're just going to be... Ideally, the women would be laying naked,

wrapped in the gold. Yes. And then, you know, you bang and take all the gold. And they're like, goodbye. Thank you. Oh, thank you for pejoring me. my own people can't. Oh. And as you mentioned earlier, Kristen, the idea of being adopted by a savage was very taboo in

English culture. In fact, it was one of their greatest fears. But to save his own ass, and to save James Town from starvation, John Smith agreed to be adopted by Chief Wahun Seneca. So four days later,

after going through an adoption ceremony, Chief Wahoon Seneca, released John Smith and provided him with a couple of guides to get safely back to Jamestown. And in exchange for his release and the escort home, Chief Wahoon Seneca wanted, quote, two guns and a grindstone. All right. John Smith arrived back in Jamestown on January 2nd, 1608. And once there, the Powhatan guides were like, okay, we brought you home.

How about you give us those guns now? Yeah. John Smith did not want to give the Powhatan Nation any guns. So instead, he pointed at two giant cannons and was like, okay, there are your guns. What? Each cannon probably weighed between three to four thousand pounds. Uh-huh. He knew there was no way they could haul that back to Werwo Komiko.

Uh-huh. What an asshole? Well, they're just going to say no, give us our guns. Well, these are just guides that escorted him home. Uh-huh. So they kind of, they couldn't really force their hand. Obviously, they're going to go back and tell Wahoon Seneca about this. Uh-huh.

It's not going to go over well, John. So they didn't get the guns. Instead, the guides got piddly stuff, like beads and glass and stuff Wahoon Seneca didn't really want. Right. Anyway, John Smith waltzed back into Jamestown, like, Guess who's back, back, back again. John Smith's back.

Tell a friend. Not everyone was happy to see him, Kristen. Why not? Governor John Ratcliffe, who you called the fat Captain Hook. He was. They spent no extra dollars on that Pocahontas animation budget. They just stretched Captain Hook a bit, and then they had their villain for Pocahontas. Yep.

And they're like, they're like, should we keep the proportion? portions when we stretch them and they're like, no, let's make the top real big. And give them any bitty spindly legs. Yep. So Governor John Ratcliffe and a few members of the council were like, dude, where the fuck have you been? Right. Why did you travel so far up the Chickahominy River?

You got a couple of our guys killed, if you recall, some of the guys that accompanied John Smith. We recall. Yes. Okay. Sorry, all you history hoes. Yeah. Just making sure you're painting. attention. Us history hos are mightily offended. I apologize. I will make the apology video. All

YouTubers make. Yes. I don't usually make videos like this. And you better be crying in that thumbnail, buddy. Oh, I will be bawling. Okay, great. But John Smith was like, no, wait, I was captured. And then I talked to Chief Wahoon Seneca. And now I'm his adopted son. And John Rackcliffe was like, Yeah, and I'm the Pope. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So John Ratcliffe and the others, they held John Smith responsible for the deaths of his fellow colonists, and they were planning to hang him. Oh, shit.

But then, Divine Intervention! Well, it seemed like that anyway, because they soon spotted ships coming in to the Chesapeake Bay. Spanish ships? Nope, it was the English. Okay. It was Captain Christopher Newport. He was back, baby. finally return from England with more supplies and around 100 new colonists.

When Captain Newport heard about the situation, he managed to convince the others to drop the charges. John Smith's leadership was evident, and they would certainly need him to preserve the future of the Jamestown settlement. So John Ratcliffe and the others begrudgingly let John Smith go. Man, he just keeps getting out of these scrapes. So, the English and the Powhatan Nation were finally. on friendly terms. Hooray! Well, kind of friendly.

It feels like... I mean, better. John didn't hold up his end of the bargain. Yeah, we're going to get back to that. And the chief's about to find that out and come bust his ass. It's coming back around. All right, yeah. Well, goes around comes back around.

That is beautiful. Okay, come on. Jesus. Oh, man. She's getting mad at me, folks. Well, I want to know what happens in this story. Well, Chief Wahoon Seneca kept his word. Every few days, he sent corn and Venice into Jamestown.

Where are his guns? Calm down, Kristen. Your halter tops falling off. Put it back on. I realize I sound like a fucking gun nut right now. Where are the guns? Give me back my guns. But for real.

What caliber bullet did those guns use? Let me tell you something. You would not be getting any corn off of me, buddy. Listen here, buddy, the corn shops closed. Well, in Powhatan culture, Kristen, leaders had to seek the good of the whole tribe. And because Chief Wahoon Seneca considered Jamestown part of the Powhatan Nation, he wanted to help them. You know what? This guy is very smart.

Because those Jamestown folks, they know where the corn's coming from. Yeah. They know who has stopped their diarrhea from flowing. It's not fucking John Smith, that's for sure. That's right. All right. Well, boy, we're the English happy to get that food because that month, a fire broke out in Jamestown. Uh-oh.

And since everything's made a wood, it spread pretty quickly. Oh, Lord. It destroyed a couple of buildings and a ton of provisions, and it made that winter pretty miserable. In fact, almost half of the new colonists that had just arrived from England died from starvation and freezing. Oh, Lord. The next month in February of 1608, Chief Wahoon Seneca requested a meeting with John Smith and Captain Christopher Newport. Chief Wahoon Seneca had never met Captain Newport, and so he wanted to get familiar with another important Englishman. The English agreed, and so Chief Wahoon Seneca sent some Powhatan guides to help them in their journey to his capital village of Warawo Komiko.

Unfortunately, the English still didn't fully trust the Powhatan people. They kept their guns pointed at the Powhatan guides as they helped them cross creeks and navigate rivers on the way to Werro Komiko. Awkward. When the English arrived in Warawokomiko, they first presented Chief Wahoon Seneca with gifts. And they said, you know what you need, Chief Powhatan? A makeover! Chief Wahoon Seneca was given the latest in English. fashion. Oh boy. First, a beautiful red silk outfit.

Oh. To top it off, a very stylish, large hat. I bet that looked so stupid. And finally, a greyhound dog. Really? Yeah, they gave him a little greyhound. Oh, that's fun. How cute. How cute. Chief Wahoon Seneca was looking like a stone cold cutie pie, Kristen. But he obviously didn't appreciate it because he was like, okay, yeah, great. Hey, John Smith, you were supposed to give me some guns. Right. In exchange for bringing you back to Jamestown. Instead, you brought me this ridiculous hat, which I guess I'm supposed to wear to a royal

wedding. I don't know. This stupid hat? What are I supposed to do with this? He was like, can I have my guns, please? Yes. And John Smith replied, hey, I held up my end of the deal. Oh, John Smith.

I gave you guns. You are full of shit. Those two large cannons, those were your guns, but your boys thought they were too heavy to bring back. Chief Wahoon Seneca laughed, thinking it was a joke. And then he was like, no, but seriously, I want my guns. Yeah. The English probably had some sense of what Chief Wahoon Seneca was up to. They knew he wanted to control Jamestown.

They knew that the best way to do that was to take all their weapons. And so they wanted to avoid giving him weapons. as much as possible. So John Smith and Captain Newport quickly changed the subject by making Chief Wahoon Seneca a great offer. And they were like, hey,

there's like an obvious language barrier here. So to make things easier, what if we exchanged some boys and have them become interpreters for us? They're always doing this with the little boys. Let's hear it for the boys. I'm worried for the boys. Well, Chief Wahoon Seneca

Love the idea, Kristen. Okay. Because usually the Europeans just kidnapped his young boys. Right. He never got one in return. Well, it was never consensual. So this would be, I mean, I doubt the young boy would be consenting, but at least there's some kind of offer on the table. Yeah, tit for tat.

Okay. And it certainly would make communication easier. Plus, this interpreter could also kind of act as a spy. Yeah. You could bring Chief Wahoon Seneca more information on the table. the English. So they made a deal. Chief Wahoon Seneca would receive one of Captain Newport's sons, while the English would get one of Chief Wohun Seneca's sons. But there's an obvious mutual distrust, because neither side got an actual son. Right. The English took in a boy named Nemontak. He was

more than likely just a servant. In return, Chief Wohun Seneca got an English boy named Thomas Savage. He was a laborer living in Jamestown, maybe even an indentured servant. His last name was Savage. Thomas Savage. Over the next few days, Chief Wahoon Seneca, John Smith, and Captain Newport made more trades. The English primarily wanted corn. Chief Wahoon Seneca wanted metal and weapons. At one point, the English agreed to help the Palatans fight enemy tribes, like the Monachians, and the Monaholics.

And finally, after a few days, their talks were complete. Please. Thomas Savage, only 13 years old, watched from the shore as the English loaded into their boats, left Warawo Comico and headed back to Jamestown. Can you imagine being that young and alone in an unfamiliar place? No, that's terrifying. Scary shit. Thomas Savage's job was to learn the Powhatan language and their customs. Luckily, there is a Powhatan child around his age who could help teach him, Chief Wahoon Seneca's dog. Pocahontas. Oh, okay. Now, we don't know this for sure, but it's very possible that Chief Wahoon Seneca had Pocahontas teach Thomas Savage about the Powhatan culture, and in return, Thomas Savage taught Pocahontas some English. There's a very good chance that this is what happened, because later, when Pocahontas made her first visit to Jamestown, she apparently already knew

some English. That's definitely what happened. Who taught her? Or they were. and likely, it was the English boy living in her village, Thomas Savage. Meanwhile, Captain Newport headed back to England for more supplies. This guy's always going back for supplies. I would be too. I'm not sticking around. This sounds terrible. Guys, ooh, we're out of Kit Katz. Yeah, I'm going back. Looks like we need a grocery run. I will, I'll do that. I'll do that. Don't worry about it. I'll do it again. Jeez. Okay. You guys enjoy your winter here.

Well, when he went back to England this time, he took his new interpreter boy, Namontak, with him. Fun fact. Wow. Wow. Namuntack is actually a character in the Disney Pocahontas movie. Oh, really? Yeah. But in the movie, he's much older and he's a warrior.

Okay. He gets shot by Governor Ratcliffe during a fight. Wow. I was just about to watch the movie for the first time this evening. Guess not. Sorry, spoiler alert for this almost. 30-year-old movie. That was terrible.

Feel old yet? Throughout the spring of 1608, things seemed relatively peaceful between the English and the Powhatan Nation. But then in May, things got bad. During this time, the Jamestown Settler started conducting military drills right outside of the fort, marching, firing their guns, and the noise from the guns startled nearby tribes. So they told Chief Wahoon Seneca about it. Yeah. Chief Wahoon Seneca wanted to know. what was up. So he sent Thomas Savage to Jamestown to figure out what's going on. So Thomas Savage went to

Jamestown and he was like, what's up with these military drills? And John Smith was like, oh, it's all good. We're just practicing because we're going on an expedition up the river. We're going to go look for some stones so we can make some axe heads. And we just want to make sure we're prepared. So Thomas Savage took that message back to Chief Wahoon Seneca. And he was pretty skeptical. He didn't believe the English were going to go look for axe heads. He feared violence. Yeah. Which is understandable.

If you're doing military drills to go look for axe heads, clearly you want to hurt some people. Yes. Yes. And you've been really cagey about giving weapons that you agreed to give. Yeah. Still doesn't really have these guns. Also, they held guns on those guides the entire trip to go see the chief. So, you know, that shows where their heads are at.

Yes. And I should also mention when they met and exchanged the interpreter boys, the English were armed during those meetings. And Chief Wahoon Seneca was very offended that they refused to put down their guns. Well, yeah. So as a result of this, relations deteriorated. Trade slowed down. Words were exchanged. What kind of words?

Bad ones? Chief Wahoon. Like panties. Yeah. You should never say that again. That was disgusting. What's wrong with the word... You know what?

You know what? Joe, bleep that. Bleep it. Bleep it. I'm going to see if he can bleep it in time. Stop. It's just a gross word. Like moist.

Yeah, except grosser. Sponge. There's nothing wrong with the word sponge. Spunge. Even if you say it like, that there's nothing wrong with it. Something weird about that word. So anyway, what words were exchanged?

Or do you not even know the words? You just know that things... Hang on, hang on. Okay, none. Chief Wahoon Seneca was getting more and more frustrated because the English were not giving him those guns and weapons he wanted. I'm frustrated too, yeah. And so eventually he said, F it, I'm just going to take them.

Yes. Local tribes started stealing English tools and weapons whenever they could. And this infuriated the English. John Smith sent a threat that if any of Chief Wahoon Seneca's people, quote, did shoot but one arrow, we would destroy them. Oh. And during one particular incident, the English took several Paspeje people hostage. In retaliation, Paspeje took several Englishmen hostage. The English retaliated by burning down a Paspeje village.

Well, that seems a bit harsh, okay. Well, the Paspeje decided, whoa, this is definitely. not worth it, so they released all of their English prisoners as a sign of peace. But the English only released one of their prisoners. The fucking English. Okay. I wish I had my English soundbite. Fancy a drink, governor.

No, I'm glad you don't have that. Chief Wahoon Seneca heard about the hostage situation, and he was furious. Yes. He threatened to storm the Jamestown settlement. Yes, you burned down a village. In turn, they released all of their hostages. hostages and you released probably the smelliest hostage that you had, right? The smelliest?

Yeah, the one they least wanted to keep around. Get rid of the stinkiest person. Get rid of the one who keeps farting. Well, they're the ones having bloody diarrhea. They probably smell the worst. I know, but you know they didn't see it that way. And they're wearing the huge wool outfits. The hospahe are barely wearing anything.

Yeah, I know, I know. So anyway, he threatened to storm the Jamestown settlement. But this was just a bluff. What he really wanted was to continue to acquire metal and weapons from the English. He needed peaceful relations again. So on the third day of the hostage situation, Chief Wahun Seneca sent an envoy to Jamestown to try and secure the release of the prisoners. In the envoy were Chiakros priests, Powhatan warriors, and surprisingly leading the envoy was Chief

Wahun Seneca's daughter, Pocahontas. How old is she at this point? She's probably 11 by now. Good grief. Okay. About time to lead an envoy. That's right. History hos might be asking themselves. But why?

It seems kind of dangerous to send a child on this mission. Well, in Powhatan society, having a child lead a group meant that the group was coming in peace. Oh. And for the English, this must have been quite a sight. Yeah. Pocahontas was now 11. years old. She would have been completely naked. All Powhatan children

were until they came of age. She had long black hair running down her back. Maybe in a braid. Her hair was cut short in the front. Pocanus... Like bangs? Yeah, cute little bangs. Oh, okay. She looked just like you, Kristen. I podcast

fully naked. Join the $10 tier to find out if that's true. Pocahontas led the envoy into Jamestown and from there negotiations took place. And the English quickly learned who Pocahontas was. She was the, quote, most esteemed daughter of Chief Wahoon Seneca. For the English, this was probably a huge deal.

Yeah. Because from their perspective, meeting a princess of another nation was a huge honor. Of course, we know Pocahontas was not a princess. Again, not a thing in Powhatan culture. But the fact that she led this envoy to secure a prisoner release was a big deal. Pocahontas symbolized trust and peace. Mm-hmm. And with her help, the English agreed to release all of the remaining Paspeje prisoners. That's really incredible. John Smith wrote about it.

He said, in the afternoon, we gave the prisoners to Pocahontas, the king's daughter, in regard of her father's kindness in sending her. Yeah. That was the first time Pocahontas visited Jamestown, but it would not be the last. It seems as though Chief Wahoon Seneca was thrilled with the outcome of this negotiation. The hostage situation was over, friendly trade resumed, and Pocahontas played a big part in that. So throughout the year of 1608, whenever an envoy of Powhatan people brought food to Jamestown, Pocahontas was usually a part of it, as that symbol of trust and peace.

John Smith would later write. Every once in four or five days, Pocahontas with her attendance brought so much provision that saved many of our lives that else for all this had starved with hunger. Translation for modern times, they probably would have starved if... They definitely would have starved.

Volcanus didn't show up with all that food. Now, traditional retellings of this story will have you believe that the Powhatan Nation was not interested in feeding the English. But luckily, Pocahontas bravely came to Jamestown on her own with food to save the English from starving. Incredible. That would have been fucking nuts. Right.

And it also, I mean, it's so interesting when you think about what that story says. If you tell that version of the story, then you don't understand how good they were at politics. Because this is all politics. This is all diplomacy. Right. But we don't want to give people that kind of credit. So, oh, no. Especially indigenous nations.

That's what I'm saying. So, yeah, it was just this one girl being so brave. Oh, thank you. Yeah, but this is easily disproven. For one, and if I've said this once, I've said it a thousand times, Kristen. You can't fart in the hot tub. Sorry, what was it? You do it all the time.

You can't pee in the hot tub either. I don't pee in the hot tub. Very good. But I do fart in the hot tub, and no one knows because of the jets. It's the perfect crime. I can smell it. Anyhow. If I've said this once, I've said it a thousand times.

Pocahontas was a child. There is no way she would have been allowed to travel alone to Jamestown, especially being the daughter of the Paramount Chief. Wild animal attacks would have been a concern. Indigenous people usually traveled in groups for protection. Also, the journey from where. Wokomaco to Jamestown wasn't exactly a walk in the park. He had to cross the Pamunkey River, which is known today as the York River, and then travel

12 miles on foot. Make no mistake, it was Chief Wahoon Seneca that sent food to Jamestown. He wanted to maintain friendly relations in order to control the English and get them weapons. Sure. Pocahontas was simply allowed to go on these food missions as a symbol of trust and peace. Some scholars contend that Chief Wahoon Seneca only sent Pocahontas to Jamestown so that she could spy on the English. Native historians deny this claim. They write, quote,

Her father may have talked to her about her experiences, but that is not to say that Pocahontas was a spy. She was not a spy. She was a child. She came to show peace, to show that the adults came in peace. Well, and can't it be a little bit of... of the first thing, like, okay, she's not there explicitly as a spy, but when you come back from your journey, your dad's going to ask you some questions. Hey, how was the trip?

Yeah. What did you see? Like any normal parent? How many people were there? Well, no, not like any normal parent. Like a leader. Yeah, of course. Who is pumping their child for information.

Maybe the child doesn't know exactly what they're after, and that's fine. the parents just getting information on this group of people who we can't fully trust. Yeah. But who we want to bring into the fold. Yeah. And he can trust his daughter. Of course. In her home village of Wara Wokomico, Pocahontas knew just about everybody.

And that same dynamic played out in Jamestown. By all written accounts from the English, everyone in Jamestown liked Pocahontas. She was fun. She was open. She was curious. She was adventurous. She was athletic. She was smart.

She brought them food. I mean, that's... She brought them food. You're starving. You're going to love the person who brings you food. I know I would. Anyone would. Pocahontas enjoyed playing with the English children. One witness stated, Pocahontas would, quote,

get the boys forth with her into the marketplace and make them wheel, falling on their hands, turning their heels upwards. In modern English, they were doing cartwheels. Yes. One historian commented, We can imagine a group of pale-faced Jamestown boys, overdressed in wool, being goaded into turning cartwheels by a brown-skinned Indian girl,

scantily clad by European standards, whose acrobatic skills probably put them to shame. Definitely put them to shame. She also conversed with the English, thanks to her growing understanding of the English language, and her willingness to teach others the Powhatan language. In particular, Pocahontas spoke frequently with John Smith. John Smith knew how important Pocahontas was, so he was very friendly toward her.

But he also wanted information. Specifically, John Smith wanted to learn and document the Powhatan language. Most of our documented evidence of the Powhatan language comes from what John Smith wrote down, and we can trace that to his conversations with Pocahontas. John Smith would point to objects or plants or animals and ask, What is this in your language? And Pocahontas would happily tell him. In turn, she asked him questions about English life.

In exchange for the lessons, John Smith would give her gifts. Pocahontas seemed to love white beads the most, something higher-up women in Powhatan society wore frequently. Because of these conversations, we have actual complete sentences of the Powhatan language. One of the first sentences John Smith recorded was, and apologies about my pronunciation, I'm going to try it. Okay. Casa Kunakke, Pea, Quag, Aquintan, Utasantaso. What's that mean?

In how many days will there come hither any more English ships? Huh. By all accounts, Pocahontas was friendly and welcomed at Jamestown. But I should mention that all of these accounts are from the English point of view. We don't have any from Pocahontas herself. How did she feel about the English at Jamestown? What did she think her future looked like as she witnessed the tension between her people, the Powhatan, and the English? Did she feel like a pawn in the game when her father, Chief Wahoon Seneca, asked her to continue going to Jamestown?

Did she actually enjoy going? We simply don't know. I'd like to touch on John Smith's and Pocahontas' relationship real quick. So in the Disney movie, it is purely one of romance. Yeah. Pocahontas and John Smith meet. They learn about each other's culture. They fall in love.

It gets real flirty. And they kiss when their love brings these two very different worlds together. Of course, we now know that Pocahontas was a child when she met John Smith. There is no evidence that John Smith and Pocahontas had a romantic relationship. It was just a friendship. Mm-hmm. John Smith valued the knowledge Pocahontas shared with him. He valued the food she brought.

He valued her friendliness. But he also had some problematic thoughts about Pocahontas. Ew. What do you mean? Through his writings, don't look at the camera like that. I'm looking at the camera however I want. We know. And they're looking back at me. Like, yeah, we agree.

So through John Smith's writings, we know, that he thought about Pocahontas in a sexual way. Ew. Gross. How old is he again? When he met Pocahontas, John Smith was probably 27. Yeah. Continue.

And he tried to make this more palatable to the reader. Because in his writings, he claimed Pocahontas was actually 14 years old, not 11. Oh, that's so much better. I agree. I was starting to get grossed out. I'm glad. I'm glad we figured things out. I'm glad it's smooth things over.

She's actually 14, not 11, which is not true. She was 11. Other colonists at Jamestown accused John Smith of making lewd comments about Pocahontas. Oh. In fact, the Virginia company investigated John Smith for his relationship with Pocahontas. Whoa. There were rumors that he was trying to marry her so he could become a Powhatan king. But these investigations went nowhere.

John Smith denied everything. All of it... He's always getting out of everything. He is a slippery little snake. He is. All of this was made up by his enemies at Jamestown, like John Ratcliffe. More like people are like, you're spending too much time with that child and were creeped out. He probably did make lewd comments about her.

Norman, as I just said, you're spending too much time with her. You're creeping us out. Yeah, you said that thing the other day. day. I'm double creeped out. We've tried to hang you like 12 times now. Why haven't we succeeded? He can't keep getting away with this. John Smith knew Powhatan culture better than anyone else at Jamestown. He understood that marrying Pocahontas would not make him a king. And besides, if he really did want to marry Pocahontas or have sex with Pocahontas, he could have because, quote, there was none that could have hindered his determination.

That's not how that works. I know, just telling you what he wrote down. Oh, that's what he wrote down? Yes. If I wanted to, I could have, because I was so determined. You have to read between the lines and the old ye old the English, but he was basically saying, like, look, if I wanted to marry Pocahontas or have sex with Pocahontas, I could have, and no one could have done a thing about it.

Okay, that's so charmed. I'm so glad we got a Disney movie out of this. Gross. Problematic? Bad? How about all three? What happens when something's beyond problematic? Is it just a problem?

I think this is just a problem. Yeah, I think you're right, actually. So, yeah. Thought that was important to mention. Yeah. I hated hearing it, but it did feel important. Can you paint with all the colors of the wind? Yeah, because I want to.

And I will. The hostage situation was over. Pocahontas was frequently visiting Jamestown. The English and Powhatan were trading and learning more and more about each other. Things seemed good. And the colonists credited John Smith, his leadership, and his understanding of the Powhatan culture. The settlers rewarded him by electing him the new governor of Jamestown. Ew, really.

Get your ass out of here, John Ratcliffe. There's a new man in town. It's John Smith. You know John Ratcliffe was pissed. Well, sure. John Smith took charge of Jamestown immediately, and he instituted a new rule, something he had learned from the Powhatan.

He that will not work shall not eat. Oh. John Smith was hell-bent on improving conditions in ensuring Jamestown would be a permanent settlement. The church was repaired. Additional storehouses were built. The fort went from a triangle shape to a five-sided one. Soldiers continued military drills.

Crops were planted. They dug a well. They made products to ship back to England, like tar, soap, tree sap. And John Smith also curbed the digging of gold. He was so sick of the obsession of finding gold. Okay, in fairness, all these fuckers came over here thanks to the gold propaganda and the sexual propaganda. Kristen, there's no gold. It's not going to happen.

I know. But, I mean, that'd be a hard pill to swallow. Oh, not only does no one want to fuck you, there's no gold. And the only money you're going to get is from tree sap that we send back over the ocean. Yeah. Early returns on the Virginia company business venture were not good. Uh-huh. We spent all this money and all we get is tree sap and soap.

Also, half my family's dead. Yeah. This is terrible. Shit. It's not worth it at all. It would have been hilarious if Chief Wahoon Seneca was like, I know where the gold is, here's this map, and you go this way and go dig it up. Honestly. And then he walked in and took all the guns.

You do wonder what kind of trickery might have worked. He's got similar tricks up his sleeve. Oh. During that summer, John Smith also further explored the Chesapeake Bay, drawing out detailed maps and documenting the indigenous tribes. It was important information. The National Park Service credits these explorations as, quote, some of Captain Smith's greatest accomplishments and enduring legacies. Let's not talk about the bad stuff he did.

I'm just really proud of all of his work and accomplishments in the field of pedophilia. Hey, he was not a pedophile. He was a pioneer in that field. And, wow, my red silk cap is off to him. No, the outfit was red silk. What, the hat didn't match? I want to imagine the hat was like a giant novelty foam cowboy hut. You know that hat matched.

I'm sure it did. Yes. I'm so glad I added that to the soundboard. On October 8, 1608, Captain Christopher Newport is back in Jamestown, and he brought supplies. Also with him was Namantak, the young Powhatan in turn. There were also colonists on board, about 70 of them, including the very first women in Jamestown. Wow. John Smith saw the supply ships as both good and bad.

It was good because Jamestown could always use more supplies and more people to work, but it was bad because he knew Chief Wahoon-Sinica would not be very happy about more colonists arriving. But the Virginia Company was one step ahead. They anticipated that more settlers might piss off Chief Wahoon Seneca. So they came up with a plan. An even better outfit, this time purple and with more frills. I mean, kind of. Shut up. Did they give him some big stupid gift he didn't want again?

Kind of. Okay, let me get into that. Let's honor Chief Wahoon Seneca by presenting him with lavish gifts. Uh-huh. So he's going to get the works, Kristen. Okay, what do we got? Fancy clothes. Uh-huh.

A cloak. Some dishes. A bed. Furniture. Curtains. And a canopy. This man is a tradwife. Like, this is so weird.

It's like he's had an estate sale. Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, yeah. Do we need a bed, honey? We're going to give you. Oh, new curtains for the Ye-Hey-Hikin. Those aren't a thing in Ye-Hey-Kins, but sure.

Oh, yeah. That's so funny. Yeah. Curtains for what? Yeah. Oh, God. Maybe for the tiny little door that I want to put in our house. You know how you have to crawl in?

You put a curtain over it. I forgot about that terrible idea you had. Great. Okay. Okay, so the next part of this plan, we're going to present him with a crown, signifying him as the king of the Powhatan. All right. Oh, and while you're doing all this,

maybe we can get them to swear loyalty to King James I first. What? Just on earth are they smoking? That is insane. Come on, just slip it in there. He's in the power position. Why on earth would he do that? Also, hey, can I melt this crown down and make it into a gun?

That's what he really wants. Yeah, I know. I have not lost track of the two guns he is owed. And the grindstone. I think he got the grindstone. I'm sure he does. did. You know what he should have done? What? You know those cannons. They were like, what? These are yours. Don't you want them?

He should have taken them, actually, and then fired him on James Town. Yeah, he should have just like, they're in Jamestown, right? Okay, so just turn that cannon right toward John Smith's hut or whatever and then blasto. Right in the outhouse. Oh, he's taking a shit. Just blow his ass sky high. So this plan was part of the bigger picture, Kristen, because if you remember, the English had always wanted the indigenous people to work for them and to make them pay taxes. Right. Instead of Jamestown joining the Powhatan Nation, the Powhatan Nation should join England. Hmm. Well, John Smith thought this whole idea was... Really fucking stupid.

Yeah. Whoever came up with this idea were, quote, fools. The whole idea was, quote, grotesque enough to have emanated from the teeming brain of King James I. after a nickel-noggin of his native whiskey. A nickel-noggin? Yeah. Oh. Old-timey term for like a sip of your...

Yeah, we get it. He's drunk. He's coming up with bad ideas. Yeah, basically, you'd have to be drunk to think this would work. Yes. But hey, it's coming from King James I first. Orders are orders. So they sent a message to Chief Wahoon Seneca.

And it said, hey, come on down to James Town. We're going to throw you a big celebration and honor you as the king of the Powhatan Nation. When Chief Wahoon Seneca got the message, he was like, Hold up. Wait a minute. Yeah. Because, hey, I'm already the Paramount Chief of the Powhatan Nation. Why do I need this ceremony? And also, if you respect me as the Paramount Chief, you need to come to me for the ceremony.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't want to come to your shithole to get. some ugly new outfit. That's right. Friendship goes both ways, buddy. Chief Wahun Seneca ultimately agreed to the celebration, and he gave them a deadline of eight days. Come to Weroa Wokomico, you got eight days to do it. I'm a busy man, I got shit to do.

Right. So the English traveled to the capital village of Warawokomico, and they brought the young Powhatan boy, Namun Tak, with them to help interpret everything. And at the ceremony, Namantak convinced Chief. Wahoon Seneca to accept most of the gifts, like the bed and the cloak and the dishes. But when it came to that crown, Chief Wahoon Seneca was very hesitant to accept it. Really? John Smith thought he just didn't understand what a crown was or what it symbolized.

Okay. But there is no doubt Chief Wahun Seneca knew the significance of this event. they wanted him to kneel and he probably found that demeaning the Paramount Chief did not kneel to anybody eventually a couple of Englishmen got tired of trying to convince Chief Wahoon Seneca

and so they just leaned on his shoulders which forced him to stoop low enough and the crown was placed on his head hooray that's horrible Yeah, so in my opinion, this whole bullshit ceremony really, really soured relations between the English and the Powhatan. Absolutely. Because after this happened, trade between the English and the local tribes slowed down.

Pocahontas made less and less visits to Jamestown. As fall was coming to a close, John Smith made it a priority to gather as much corn as possible for the upcoming winter. For all of the good he did for Jamestown, John Smith didn't make enough of an effort to plant more crops. The English were still very reliant on trade. And this came back to bite him. Well, yeah, it's why it was so dumb to piss off the people who are keeping you from starvation. Yeah, it's not a good look. And to be fair to John Smith, he knew that.

He said it was a really stupid idea. But yeah, the English relied on the Powhatan people. way too much. And that came back to bite them because that year there was a pretty severe drought. And so the harvest had been poor. So at the end of the year, many tribes were hesitant to trade with John Smith because they needed to feed themselves. Right. So how do you think John Smith took this? I mean, there's no other way to take it. I mean, what are you going to do? Maybe he'll get violent. Oh, shit. John Smith had always believed that the English should show their full. to control the local indigenous tribes. So in some instances, when a tribe said, no, I don't want to trade with you, things got violent.

John Smith forced tribes to give him corn under the threat of violence. Sometimes he destroyed villages if they wouldn't give him what he wanted. During one incident, he recalled that a matapony woman told him he was too cruel to be a Christian. He had no compassion. And did he ironically respond by getting violent? Yeah. Chief Wahoon Seneca heard about the violent encounters. He was not happy. He felt like he had been more than fair to John Smith and the English settlers. He gave them food. He traded with them. But it never seemed like enough. They always wanted more. And they wouldn't hold up their end of the bargain. Right. You know, he wanted those guns and they were always hesitant to trade him guns.

No, no, no, no, no. They agreed to give him guns, and they reneged on that agreement. What about the cannons, Kristen? That was not what he asked for. So Chief Wahoon Seneca had had enough. He changed his strategy. He ordered all tribes in the Powhatan Nation to refuse trade with the English. There we go. So the English were now in a really bad spot. Mm-hmm. Suck on that.

They're running low on provisions. what little they had was rotting or being eaten by rats in the storehouse. In December of 1608, Captain Christopher Newport, once again, heads back to England for more supplies. I love this guy. Yep. This guy has got the right idea. He does. It was up to John Smith to settle the conflict with the Powhatan Nation and get more food.

That same month, John Smith and other colonists made a desperate journey through the Powhatan Nation looking. for food. They had a tough time because with Chief Wahoon Seneca's new orders, many tribes refused to trade with John Smith, and as a result, violence continued. Perhaps Chief Wahoon Seneca sensed their desperation and thought he could take advantage of the situation.

Sure. So in January of 1609, he sent the English a message saying, he'd be willing to trade with them. But he didn't want bullshit. He wanted guns. He wanted swords. He wanted copper. Yep. John Smith had no choice but to accept.

Jamestown needed food. So he made the trip to the capital village of Warewokomico. On the way there, the English heard rumors that Chief Wahoon Seneca was planning to ambush them and slit their throats. Hmm. So they were on high alert. They were wearing all their scarves. That's right. Can't cut my throat if I got a scarf on.

I've got 12 infinity scarves on, buddy. What's you going to do now? What's an infinity scarf? It's just one of those that goes round and round, round, round. Oh, 12. So his neck's like... Yeah, good luck slit in my throat now. He'd be like, oh, this is a traditional outfit of the English.

So it's winter, you know, I'm cold. My neck's cold. John Smith and a few other colonists arrived at Warawo Komiko, and they entered Chief Wahoon Seneca's massive Yehaken. He was sitting on his bed throne, surrounded by warriors, Chiakros priests, his wives, his children. Pocahontas was there with him.

Mm-hmm. And negotiations began. Chief Wahoon Seneca knew the English were in a bad spot, and he used it to his advantage. Guess what? The price of corn just went up. I bet it did. If the English wanted 40 bushels of corn, he would need 40 swords. Oh.

John Smith was appalled at the offer. That's some expensive corn. Mm-hmm. He tried to offer little trinkets. Yeah, we've got some beads. You want more beads? Look at all these beads. Did you ever do bead art as a kid? Hell yeah, loved it. Yeah? Would you trade some of those beads for corn?

I mean, yeah, I don't think anyone would have made that deal with me. My bead art was pretty shitty. What the hell is this? You've got no sense for patterns or good colors. I'm taking my corn back. Once again, Chief Wahoon Sanika noticed John Smith and his men were armed. And that offended him greatly. And he told him, Captain Smith, I have not treated any of my aware ofances as well as you. Yet from you, I receive the least kindness of any.

Yeah. If you are friendly as you say you are, put down your weapons so I can believe you. But John Smith refused. He believed the rumors that Chief Wahoon Seneca wanted him dead. So the English paranoia was sky high. Right. John Smith then tried to bluff Chief Wahoon's. Seneca. He said, well, if you won't trade fairly with us, then we're just going to go trade with

this other tribe. They're called the Powafan tribe. Okay. Tribe. See, I had no biggie if you don't want to trade with us. Yeah, I'm just going to go to my boyfriend, George Glass. George Glass, down the Chickahominy. He's in love with me. He actually got me out of a tough spot a while back. You see this third infinity scarf around them? That's from him, the orange one. But Chief Wahoon Seneca didn't believe him.

Yeah. And then he made a stunning proclamation. He told John Smith, Many inform me that you are not here for trade, but to invade my people and possess my country. If you continue to attack my people and demand more corn than can be spared, I will move our people and retreat deep into the woods. What can you get by war when we can hide?

our provision and fly to the woods whereby you must famish. Basically, it was a warning. Keep this shut up and we will leave. And you will be fud dittily uct. That's a really interesting thing to say. It's brilliant. Yeah, it's not, I'm going to kill you. Well, in a way it is.

It's you'll die without me. You need me more than I need you. Exactly. That's exactly what he's thinking. is a brilliant political maneuver. Negotiations would continue over a couple more days. It didn't go well. John Smith could sense Chief Wahoon Seneca was getting angrier and angrier. In the end, the two sides finally made a pretty meager trade. Ten bushels of corn for a large copper kettle. It was all Chief Wahoon Seneca was willing to give up. And that meeting was the very last time John Smith would ever see Chief Wahoon Seneca.

Really? Yep. Well, keep going. Okay. John Smith and the others returned to their camp, which was just outside of Warewokomico, and a heavy rain began to fall. The movie. John Smith then spotted a figure coming out of the woods towards them. It was Pocahontas.

She had snuck out of Warewokomico. to warn him. No, this is all bullshit, isn't it? Her father was indeed planning to kill them. No. The English needed to leave quickly. John Smith thanked her, and she fled back into the woods. It was the last time they would see each other in the new world.

Shit that didn't happen. The next morning, the English packed up and departed Weroa Wokomico. Kristen, did this actually happen? No, it didn't. Oh, no. No, no No. Good job.

You are learning quite a bit from this series. Mainly that John Smith is full of shit. This is another one of those stories that only appears in John Smith's later writings, like his book published in 1624. Yeah.

Never mentions this in his earlier writings. The truth is, John Smith knew Chief Wahoon Seneca was pissed. He had heard rumors. He wanted him dead. He didn't know. need a warning from Pocahontas.

Right. Also, would Pocahontas truly have cited with John Smith over her own people and her father? No. And as I've stated many times before, Pocahontas was a child. Child! She was the Paramount Chief's daughter. She was under heavy supervision at all times. It's highly unlikely she would have been able to leave the capital village alone unsupervised.

And what happened next further disproved. John Smith's story. Because after the English left where Wokomaco, they traveled further into the Powhatan Nation, looking for food. If John Smith and the other Englishmen really thought their lives were in danger, wouldn't they have gone back to Jamestown? Yeah. Yeah.

So, in my opinion, this is another mythologized tale about Pocahontas being one of the good ones. Yeah. And saving the English. John Smith and his men went further upriver, arriving at the Pamunkey Village of Menapukunt, home of Chief Wahoon Seneca's brother, Opie Chanquino. Frustrated by his conversation with Chief Wahoon Seneca and desperate for food, John Smith immediately put a gun to Opie Chan Cano's chest. Okay.

He threatened to kill him unless he loaded up their boats with corn and venison. After the boats were loaded up, the English left. On the way back to Jamestown, the English traveled through the capital village of Warawokomico, and there John Smith made a startling discovery. The village was now abandoned. Whoa. After the incident with Opie Chanquino, Chief Wahoon Seneca had followed through with his threat. I thought that was a total bluff.

Nope. Everyone in his village, including Pocahontas, had fled deep into the woods. to a new village called Oropox. Wow. Pretty legit, huh? That's amazing. How far did they go? Oh, I'd have to look at the map, but it's much further inland when I looked at it.

I don't know how many miles, but pretty deep into the woods. Yeah, they're not going to be easily found. Right. John Smith had just learned a hard lesson. The tribes of the Powhatan Nation were nothing like the indigenous people that the Spanish encountered. The Aztecs of Central America had vast farms and huge temples. These were permanent settlements. But the Algonquian tribes of the Powhatan nation were semi-nomadic. They could move easily. They had done it before, and clearly they could do it again. Yeah. John Smith now knew

that getting food would be harder than ever. For the rest of his time as the leader of Jamestown, John Smith would no longer go on food expeditions. He wanted to avoid any further conflict, or else more tribes would flee. And as for Pocahontas, she never visited Jamestown again. Well, willingly, anyway. Oh. Because soon, hostilities between the English and the Powhatan

would boil over into a full-blown war, and an incident would occur that would change Pocahontas' life forever. On the next episode of an old-timey podcast, Pocahontas is kidnapped. Oh. Oh my gosh. Okay.

This was a very good episode. Thank you. I'm looking forward to next week. Well, time is a construct. Next week. Yeah. It's next week for you listeners. Wow. What a mess. Diplomatic

Relations. You can see how complex it was getting. Well, and it's funny. It's that thing of the King of England, not knowing anything really about what was going on in the new world, and just saying, yeah, go do this. Yeah. Give him this. Get him to bend the knee. Follow this formula from our culture.

Yeah, it was a fundamental misunderstanding of how Powhatan culture worked. I would argue the bigger miscalculation is thinking the people in Jamestown have some real power here. And they didn't. They had guns. So that was something. But that's really all they had. And so, yeah, when you're in that position, you don't get to go to the chief and say, bend the knee. We brought you curtains.

And a red silk outfit. and a greyhound dog, Kristen. Wow. Yeah, can you believe he packed up the village and actually left? I love it. Yeah. I really love it. And it's like, man, why didn't Disney include all this shit?

That would have been a kick-ass movie. Yeah. Instead, they made a movie that sucked. Well, and here's the other thing. In Disney's Pocahontas, why didn't they include, like, Like, her being part of that group that brought food to Jamestown. Like, that's not in the movie. Or, like, the hostage situation, that's not in the movie.

It's like she only exists as, like, this love interest. That's all it is. I mean, to be fair, like, and Disney's come a long way, I think. But a lot of, like, the women characters in Disney movies, they're just love interests. I know. And so even if the real story is she's a child. Oh, well, we can't have that. Sorry, what'd you say?

She's a child. Child? Yeah. Well, in the Disney movie, she looks like she's like 22. Yeah. I'm sure John Smith would want you to believe that. Anyway, Norm, if we're wrapping up here... We are.

I've got some reviews I'd like to read to you. Ooh, yes, please. What's you got? These reviews are so funny. Everyone, just a quick thank you to everyone. who has rated and reviewed the podcast, it really helps us out. We are a small, independent, sexy podcast, as Norm's always saying. And so reviews really, really help us out. I have selected three that I would like to read to you today. And I just scrolled way too far

in my notes here and I lost them. Oh, wait, I'm back, baby. What a price to pay. This first review is a little shady. And so that's... Shady. Yes, but not to us. which is why I'm totally fine with it. Oh, okay. This comes from TM Nash for five stars. Title, Despite my historian sister, I love this podcast. What? The body of this review reads,

My historian sister loves to didactically tell me about history, which has led me to develop a slight aversion to it. But this podcast is single-hand. Restoring My Interest, Episode by Episode. Yes. Thank you. Didactic. What a word.

Thank you, T.M. Nash. And we hope your sister learns a lesson today. Yeah, have your sister listen. Let's get her opinion. This next review comes from Delicious, Natalicious. Natalicious, delicious, delicious. Make those boys go look go. Five stars.

The title of the review, I love Kristen and her non-threatening boy, Normie C. That's me. The body reads, While I may have been ordered to leave a positive review, I am happy to oblige. We've ordered her to do it. Five stars for the soundboard. Five stars for amazing special guests such as Judge Judy, Owen Wilson, and Dr. Hubert Montgomery. They even got Adolf Hitler on the show to discuss Patreon bonus content despite his problematic views and stinky farts.

And that he's dead. What a fair and balanced show. I came for Lucille Ball. I stayed for the engaging and comedic history content. Five stars for that. This puts the star total at 20 stars. Holy moly. I am Delicious Natalicious and I approve this review.

That's one of my favorites. so far. You know, we really are fair and balanced on this show. The fact that we had Judge Judy and Adolf Hitler on this podcast just shows how fair and balanced we are. I don't know what that means. I've got another one. This is a very concise one. We love a concise review. Okay, so they're in line at Subway. Yep, Etychus 0225 was in line at Subway. Didn't have a lot of time. Five stars. The title is simply the best. The body of it reads, better than all. the rest. You love singing that song.

Simply the best. Bam, bum, better than all the rest. So thank you to everyone who has rated or reviewed this lovely little podcast is ours. Thank you very, very much. If you are in line at Subway

and the fella behind the counter is like, what do you want on your big stinky meatball song? Quickly leave that review. Yes. Put down your phone and tell them what you want on it. Okay, shall we wrap this up? Let's wrap it up. You know what they say about history, hoes.

We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from The Books. Pocahontas in the Powhatan dilemma by Camilla Townsend. Pocahontas by Grace Steele Woodward. And The True Story of Pocahontas. The other side of history by Dr. Linwood Little Bear Custolo and Angela L. Daniel Silver Star.

That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and YouTube at Old Timey Podcast. Join the Reddit community, R-slash-old-tymy podcast. And follow us individually on Instagram. She is the beautiful Kristen Pitts Caruso. I go by Gaming Historian, and until next

time, Tudaloo, Tata, and cheerio. Bye!