An Old Timey Podcast - 35: Pocahontas Ends a War (Part 5)

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

In this final episode of our series on Pocahontas, we see Pocahontas navigate life as a kidnapped young woman. She gets a marriage proposal. She ushers in an era of peace for her people. She gives birth. She’s taken to England. At one point, she tells off that douchelord, John Smith. Her life story presents challenges for historians, not just because Native American oral history conflicts with English sources, but because she held so many roles in her short life – often at the same time. She was a survivor, a victim, a diplomat, a spy, an adventurer, a mother, a wife, a peacekeeper, an aristocrat, and a curiosity. Through it all, one thing is certain: Pocahontas’s life was remarkably short, but her impact is incalculable.Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Norm pulled from: Custalow, Linwood, and Angela L. Daniel. The True Story of Pocahontas. Fulcrum Publishing, 2007.“John Rolfe | Historic Jamestowne,” n.d. https://historicjamestowne.org/history/pocahontas/john-rolfe/.Rountree, Helen C. Pocahontas’s People: The Powhatan Indians of Virginia through Four Centuries. University of Oklahoma Press, 1996.“Thomas Rolfe | Historic Jamestowne,” n.d. https://www.nps.gov/jame/learn/historyculture/thomas-rolfe.htm.Townsend, Camilla. Pocahontas and the Powhatan Dilemna. Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2004.Woodward, Grace Steele. Pocahontas. Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1969.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.Thank you to our sponsors!Hello Fresh. Get 10 FREE meals at HelloFresh.com/freeotp. Applied across 7 boxes, new subscribers only, varies by plan.Miracle Made. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. TryMiracle.com/OTP

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Norman Caruso. And do they know it's Christmas time at all? It's Kristen Caruso. We know. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh, Norm, please don't sing. We're going to have some singing coming up on this episode. We are? I'm afraid so. Oh, God. Well, on this episode, it's the finale of my series on Pocahontas. Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate you all sticking around for this. Yeah. I have loved this series. It took a true crime bend.

Well, I guess it was always true crime because there were always crimes happening. Lots of crimes happening in the new world. We didn't see the muscle shells coming though. You got to say that. Didn't see that coming. And boy, am I excited for this thrilling episode. Imagine if that incident was on forensic files. And the guy was like, And then they found the muscle shells with skin torn off. Disgusting. Norm, why would you bring that up?

I guess technically I brought it up. But still, I blame you. Yeah, well, I mean, it happened. And I'm actually going to mention it again when I do my little recap. So you may want to prepare yourself. Well, I actually am quite prepared today to do a plug for our Patreon. The question is, are you prepared for what's about to happen to you? I think it's going to involve some singing, so...

As a matter of fact, I have prepared an original song. Really? It is titled... Didn't know you had any musical ability, Kristen. That's the rudest thing you could have possibly said! Norm, this song is called Little Non-Threatening Boy. Oh. And I think you're going to really enjoy it.

As a non-threatening boy myself, I think I might be able to relate to this. song. I think you might. And I think the listeners are going to really enjoy it. Okay, let's hear it, Kristen. Golden Pipes. Come, they told me, Pup, Patreon, Pum. A new fresh meaty boy, a Patreon Pum. It's not a lit troll boy, it's a bonus episode. We've got the video and the discord. The discord, the discord. Stickers are what you seek. Well, go take a peek. In your mailbox.

In your mailbox. Oh, it's getting a little sexy. What's that you want at free? Pop, Patreon, Pum. You'll have to sign up now, PAPTatrion POM. It makes a very good gift, for Patreon bomb. Certainly does.

Why don't you come now, chum? Don't be so glum. Be so glum. Be so glum. I'm about to bust. What are you chewing on? Is that my gum? Nope, it's Patreon.

Okay. Dot com special timey podcast. Oh my gosh. Thank you. I wasn't expecting you out of applause. That last line didn't make much sense. These roses that you're throwing at, well. But kudos, Kristen.

We enjoyed your Christmas carol there. Norm, I don't know if it's obvious to you or to the listeners, but my pharmacy is out of my extended release Adderall. I think it's starting to show. Uh-oh. It certainly showed as I got to the end of that made-up song. The wheels kind of fell off. We're starting to see cracks in the foundation.

Is that what you're saying? I'm afraid so. Damn, what a shame. Well, I enjoyed the tune, Kristen. Thank you very much. And, you know, our Patreon does make an incredible gift. You can now gift Patreon membership. I know you couldn't do that before, but now you can.

I bet your grandmother sure would love a subscription to our Patreon. I don't think so. I don't think anyone's grandma would like this. But, you know, maybe someone would. Your sister, maybe? My grandma almost got scammed during the Thanksgiving holiday. It's not funny. I'm sorry.

But it's kind of funny. Yeah. But it's not. Some guy pretending to be her sister was like, I need a bunch of Amazon gift cards. Three $100 Apple gift cards. Thank God Amazon flagged it. Yeah. So shout out to Amazon for saving my grandma from getting scammed.

Kristen, I absolutely loved your original Christmas song that you just sang. Thank you. I think everyone loved it. But you know what else I love? What's that? Cooking. Hold on. I think we're about to go into an ad.

Doodaloo! History hose, I absolutely love cooking, except for probably the most important part of cooking. Picking out recipes and then going to the grocery store to buy everything. There's no time. And sometimes there's like a weird ingredient, like elder flour syrup or useless tomatoes. Where the hell do I get useless tomatoes?

We don't know. I hate it, hate it, hate it. But those days are gone with Hello Fresh. Woohoo! With Hello Fresh, you get Farm Fresh, pre-portioned ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep. It makes home cooking easy, fun, and affordable. And that's why it's America's number one meal kit.

Every Hello Fresh recipe includes high quality, sustainably sourced ingredients like produce that comes fresh from the farm. And there's always something for everyone to enjoy on HelloFresh. Fresh's weekly menu. With 50 chef-crafted recipes to choose from every week, plus customizable options to make your meals just the way you like them, you'll be able to easily satisfy every craving. And right before this recording, Kristen, you made us lemon butter chicken with cuss-coose and zucchini parmesan. Ooh! It was really good. It was delicious. And folks, I'm not a great chef.

So if I can do it, you can do it. I ate so much of that that... I'm about to bust. I am too, honestly. No doubt, that meal gave me the courage and stamina. I needed to record this episode of an old-timey podcast. Oh, I didn't think HelloFresh gave you courage, but all right. You know what else they're giving you?

What's that? Ten free meals at Hellofresh.com slash free OTP. Whoa! Applied across seven boxes, new subscribers only, varies by plan. That's 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to HelloFresh.com slash free OTP. Thank you to HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit for sponsoring this incredible episode of an old-timey podcast. And we're back from the ad.

Doodaloo! Wow, it's so weird to have sponsors on this show, Kristen. No, it's not weird. It's wonderful. How dare you, Mormon? No, it is wonderful. just not used to it yet. I'm still getting used to it. But yeah, it is, it is awesome. So thank you all for listening and your support. And hey, yeah, go sign up for Hello Fresh. Get that lemon butter

chicken in your belly. We do really appreciate it because without the listeners, there would be no sponsors. And without the sponsors, little non-threatening Norm wouldn't get that tool bag he wanted for Christmas. Norm, are you going to wrap up this thrilling series on Pocahontas? I am. I am. But first, we have to do a recap of the last episode. Oh, God. Previously. On an old time. That really turns you on, doesn't it?

Stop it. Hey, it's a family program. When Chief Wahoon Seneca of the Powhatan Nation moved his capital village deep into the woods, the Jamestown settlers were like, hey, where'd you go? We're hungry. And as a result, they struggled. And when a business struggles, because yes, the Jamestown Colony was a business. you need to call in some experts.

I'm talking Gordon Ramsey. Robert Irvine. John Taffer. Norm, this is not a restaurant makeover show. This was a real thing that happened. Can you imagine? It's kitchen nightmares, but it's in the 1600s in Jamestown. Those settlers would get chewed apart for,

are you serving us leather belts right now? You want me to eat this? Are there worms in my mush? Yeah. Disgusting. Well, the Virginia Company didn't call any of those experts. Instead, they decided to change things up. But how?

By getting rid of democracy, of course. Jamestown would no longer have a voting council. Instead, an authoritarian governor would rule the colony with an iron fist. John Smith, the current governor of Jamestown, and a cheeky little bastard, got the news and decided he was done with Jamestown. He decided to go out on his own, a quiet little cabin in the woods. But Kristen, before he could complete his Barbie dream home, he was the victim of an accidental gunpowder explosion. My name!

John Smith survived the ordeal with severe burns. It's not funny. It's a little funny because it was his own gunpowder. It was all his fault, really. It was an accident. Also, it was his gunpowder. As you mentioned, he was a cheeky little bastard, so continue. But his boo-boo hurt too much, so he returned to England to recover.

he would never again return to Virginia. Chief Wahoon Seneca and his daughter, Bokohanis, were told that John Smith had died. And with that information, Chief Wahoon Seneca saw an opportunity to tighten his grip around the English. He refused trade, surrounded the Jamestown fort, and attacked stragglers. It was a good old-fashioned siege. Whoa, like a good old-fashioned siege. You're probably going to want me to sing. I am the singer of the hit tune, the little non-threatening boy.

You've probably heard of me. Right. Your talent far surpasses mine. But you know, Kristen, the English, they don't take no for an answer. A few colonists headed down the river to try and trade or steal food from the Powhatan Nation. And Chief Wahoon Seneca decided to teach these fellas a lesson. He captured and killed them all. and one man, former governor John Ratcliffe, was flayed with muscle shells, and his skin was tossed into a fire.

He'll never look at muscles the same again, I guarantee it. This incident was the beginning of the Anglo-Poatan Wars. The winter of 1609 to 1610 was brutal for the English. They ate whatever they could to survive, horses, cats, dogs, leather, and even each other. This period is known as the starving time. During the starving time, the population of Jamestown dropped from 490 to 60. When the spring of 1610 arrived, the Jamestown Council decided that they had had enough. They were going to return to England.

So they packed up their shit and left. Chief Wahoon Seneca was thrilled. Finally, the English are leaving. It's what he always wanted, Kristen. But right as the ships pulled into the ocean, they ran in. into another ship going in the opposite direction. And it was their new authoritarian governor, Baron Delaware, who, as Kristen told us in the last episode,

is what the state of Delaware is named after. Sorry for being so smart. Baron Delaware had finally arrived from England, and he declared, And you better not cuss. Duna, da-da. He convinced everyone to turn around and give Jamestown another try. James Town was now a military state with some new rules. Everyone was forced to work.

Forced to go to church. You couldn't say swear words, like or... And eat my... You stupid... Norm! Meanwhile, Pocahontas had turned 14 years old. She was becoming a woman in Powhatan society.

So, she had her coming-of-age ceremony. She married a warrior named Kokulam, possibly had a child, and settled down with the Padawomac tribe in Pasipatansi. She lived in relative... peace for several years. But in the spring of 1613, her peace was interrupted. The English had learned she was living in Pasipotanze, and they thought, hey, if we kidnapped Pocahontas, that would give us a huge advantage in this war. So the English tricked Pocahontas into coming onto their ship, and she was taken

prisoner. The English demanded guns, hostages, and food from Chief Wahoon Seneca in exchange for Pocahontas, but negotiations failed. In captivity, Pocahontas was stripped of her identity. She was forbidden from praying to her gods. She was forced to wear English clothing. She was taught English customs, the English language, the Christian faith. On Sundays, Pocahontas was taken into town to attend church service and socialized with the colonists. And during one particular Sunday service, She met a man she would later marry, the 28-year-old widower tobacco farmer John Rolf. And that is where we will pick up our story today. Woo!

Okay, here we go. Sorry, that was quite of a meaty recap, but... Never apologize for your meats, Norm. Thank you, Kristen. You're the first woman to ever say that to me. You don't have to apologize for that meat. Stop it. When John Rolf first laid eyes on Pocahontas, it was love at first sight.

Aww. Aw, isn't that sweet? Well, not really because she was, you know, just kidnapped and her husband was murdered and her child had been taken away. But, you know, good for John. But hey, John was in love. You didn't know all those things. Okay. Poconis was now 16 years old, maybe 17 years old.

She was beautiful, long, dark hair. athletic build, calm demeanor, very intelligent. John Rolf was impressed by her ability to learn the English language in Christianity. It's amazing what you can do when you're forced to, but yes. Right? Uh-huh. But was John Rolf outkicking his coverage by pursuing Pocahontas? What did he look like?

Let's talk about it. John Rolfe was about 28 years old. He was the average height for a man at the time, about 5 feet, 6 inches. steel gray eyes brown hair with some blonde streaks in it highlights frosted tips

in North America Kristen God did he have a puka shell necklace we simply don't know oh come on they stopped at the Bahamas you're right they were in Bermuda let's go ahead and say he was wearing the pucashell necklace and probably a real

pukeshell necklace authentic he didn't get it from Clare's Some sources also say that John Rolf resembled a brown dog Muppet-like creature that could play the piano. Shut up. What? I don't even know. Did you remember Rolf from The Muppets? Oh, no.

John Rolf. Okay, great. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to let you down. You know, someone is in their car listening to this episode, and they got it. They're pissing themselves right now. Oh, I remember. Yeah.

And then they rear-end another car. I knew that joke wasn't going to land, but I included it anyway. I'm a hero. Very brave. Anyway, it was obvious that John Rolfe was smitten with Pocahontas because he started regularly visiting her during her English and Christianity lessons. Perhaps Reverend Whitaker, who was teaching Pocahontas, noticed a connection as well because he allowed Pocahontas to visit John Rolf at his tobacco farm nearby.

And there, Pocahontas showed John Rolf the power. Powhatan methods for cultivating tobacco. It was incredibly helpful to him. By the winter of 1613, John Rolf could not contain his love any longer. I'm about to bust. He wrote an eight-page confession of his love for Pocahontas. And Kristen, it is quite a document. It still exists?

Yeah, you can read his manifesto. Okay, okay. I'm going to go over some of the highlights. It's Oldie English, but I picked out some of the best parts. John Rolfe wrote that, quote, It is Pocahontas to whom my hearty and best thoughts are and have been a long time so entangled and enthralled in so intricate a labyrinth that I could not unwind myself there out.

Well, I do kind of like that so intricate a labyrinth. Yeah. John Rolfe was obsessed with Pocahontas, but he also acknowledged the complications of his feelings. He added, What should provoke me to be in love? with one whose education has been rude. Her manners barbarous. Okay, John.

Her generation cursed and so different from myself. So that pretty insulting. Yes. John Rolfe is basically saying, why would I be in love with someone so inferior to myself? Yeah, he sure is saying that. But I do want to acknowledge that this is also a stunning confession to his fellow colonists, because John Rolf was saying, hey, I'm in love with this woman, even if she is a savage. Good for you, John. How big of you to be in love with the really hot, smart princess?

Yeah. I know she wasn't really a princess, but that's how they're viewing her. Okay. So this was unheard of at the time, because as you may recall from previous episodes in this award-winning series on Pocahontas. We've won no awards. The English feared being converted into Native American zombie monsters. Yes, it's true. They saw themselves as superior.

The naturals should be subordinates to them. So the idea of an English man being in love with a Powhatan woman was pretty damn taboo, let alone marrying a Powhatan woman. Remember, the Virginia Company had previously investigated John Smith for allegedly wanting to do the same thing. It was very naughty. Okay, but Pocahontas was truly a child. back then and John Smith was a grown-ass man who didn't know what to do with gunpowder. He knew what to do with gunpowder. It was an accident. Okay. I'm just saying. My point is it was very taboo in English society to be in love with an indigenous person. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it's not surprising

that John Rolf was questioning his feelings about the whole thing. He claimed he couldn't sleep at night. He said he tried not to think about Pocahontas, but he couldn't have. help it. The worst of all, Kristen, were his feelings of lust. He called them a dangerous ulcer that he struggled to cure. This guy was walking around with an erection all day long. That is a dangerous ulcer. Cut it off. I mean, in a society where you curse three times and then you get put to death, I don't see why you wouldn't get beheaded for having, you know, a little too much blood flow to the wiener. Here's a fun fact for you, Kristen. Hmm.

The guy that shot John Wilkes Booth, I think his name was Boston Corbett. He was a very religious man, and he was very ashamed of his lustful thoughts. And so one night he castrated himself with a pocket knife. Oh, dear God. Yeah. And you called that a fun fact? I thought that was pretty interesting. It is pretty interesting.

Anyway, so by the end of this 8. page love letter, John Rolf had concluded that marrying Pocahontas was actually the most Christian thing he could possibly do. Oh, gross, because he can save her by marrying her. Okay, first of all, hold on. I did not ask a critical question. What's your question? Who is this eight page letter two exactly? So I think originally he wrote it for himself, but then he decided to share it with Reverend Alexander Whitaker. He was teaching Pocahontas. Surely Pocahontas found out about about it. Yeah. But we'll get to what happens later. Right. Yeah. In fact, Kristen, it would be a sin if he did not marry Pocahontas. See what he does here? Yes. He wrote that Pocahontas had,

quote, a desire to be taught and instructed in the knowledge of God, her capableness of understanding, her aptness and willingness to receive any good impression. What should I do? Shall I refuse to lead the blind into the right way? Oh my God. I realized the irony of calling on God just then. Is no one thinking, hmm, maybe she's going along with this because we kidnapped her? Well, we'll get into all that. I'm just telling you about his love letter right here. I want, you got to hold on to your halter top.

I want to come at him with some muscle shells. Uh-oh. I don't really. I don't have the stomach for it. But anyway, go on. John Rolf is going to be the least of your problems in this episode. Oh, great. Okay, I'll keep my pants on.

John Rolf's confession was clear. He was in love with Pocahontas and he wanted to marry her. But... Oh, stop. Wait a minute. James Town was now a military state. You needed permission to do anything besides going to church. So a freaking marriage to a Powhatan woman would definitely need approval. So John Rolfe nervously gave his letter to the current governor of Jamestown,

Sir Thomas. Dale. Sir Thomas Dale was a career military man. He ran Jamestown accordingly. He was the man responsible for all those blood laws that we talked about in the last episode. You know, if you say a bad word three times, we're going to chop your head off or whatever. Well, seems like a pretty reasonable man, don't you think? Yeah. What did he think of this love letter, Kristen? Okay, well, John has quite a bit of power because he makes the good tobacco, right? That everyone loves. loves? He is still in the very early stages of making this tobacco, okay?

Okay, never mind. He is not some powerhouse right now. Never mind. I take back what was going to be my theory. Continue. What was your theory? I'm curious. My theory was that he was going to be able to get away with doing kind of what he wanted

because he had power. And he had an addictive substance that everybody loves. I'll give you a carton of cigarettes if you let me know a poke up. Ahanis, Sir Thomas Dale actually thought this marriage would be great, not only for the survival of the colony, but for the profits of the Virginia Company. How? A marriage between a Powhatan woman and an Englishman could bring an end to hostilities, and that piece could entice more people from England to come check out the new world for

themselves, and that meant more money for the Virginia Company. Okay. So Sir Thomas Dale gave John Rol for... his blessing. He was free to ask Pocahontas's hand in marriage. So John Rolfe did. And what did Pocahontas say? Well, she probably had no choice but to say yes. Yes. Let's unpack all of this. Please. Okay. We've got a lot of stuff going on, a lot of complicated feelings, emotions. So let's dive into the why. Why would Pocahontas marry John Rolfe? Kristen, you say she had no choice. Yeah, I mean, obviously you can say no. I don't know how well that goes for you when you've been kidnapped, though. I think you kind of have to say yes. And I think it's probably wise to say yes.

Excellent point. We'll get to that in a minute. I want to go over a couple of other reasons that I've come across in my research. So some sources think the reason she said yes is very simple. Pocahontas loved the English Oh my God Some sources are idiots Hey hang on I'm not hanging on We are fair and balanced On an old-timey podcast

Are we? Okay Pocahontas thought the English were far superior to her own people The Powhatan The Powhatan were backwards, violent Just downright terrible In fact Pocahontas was supremely grateful that she had been kidnapped

What an odd thing to say Kristen, you're looking at me like you want to bite my ear off. I'm nothing like Mike Tyson, first of all. Oh, that fight with Jake Paul was just horrible, by the way. Sorry for this tangent, but Chris and I were very excited to watch that fight, Mike Tyson versus Jake Paul. I was intrigued. But we get home and we can't even load it on our Netflix.

It just like buffers the entire time. We had to sit there crying. We missed the fight between. Amanda Serrano and Katie, sorry, I can't recall her name, the woman's fight before Mike Tyson, which was incredible, by the way, watched the highlights.

But yeah, it just kept buffering, and then the actual fight, I watched, I had to watch an illegal stream of it. You're not going to believe this. It was like a 25-year-old man boxing a 60-year-old man. It was just awful.

I fell asleep. Yeah, you did. When I couldn't get it loaded on Netflix, You were just like, well, I guess I'll go to sleep. Good night. Anyway, back to Pocahontas. Some sources say she just, she loved the English and of course she's going to marry John Rolf. Boy, I wonder what race and nationality these historians were.

Anyhow, continue. Zimbabwe. Oh, right, right. We know. We know. We're all thinking it. Yes. Other sources say, and this is the complete opposite of the previous one, Pocahontas was forced into this marriage with John Rolf.

She was a prisoner, a hostage, she did not have a choice. Yeah, no shit. You know what would be really fun. What? We take all the historians who wrote that first opinion. Okay. We round about. Most of them, probably all of them are dead now.

Well, I would sure hope so because that's a pretty dated opinion. opinion. Let's get in our time machine. Let's go back. Let's round them up. Let's kidnap them. Let's, hopefully they're hot. And then they have to marry me. And then they have to marry me. And we see how they answer the question. Forced to marry you, Kristen. Yes. A fate worse than death. No, I'm just like, how how did these people, like, they're so, they're sniffing their own farts so hard. And with such gusto, that they can't even put themselves in her position and think, hmm, gee, what would I say if I were in this position? If I had been kidnapped and I was being held against my will and all of a sudden someone in this circle of captors asks me any question at all.

Of course my answer is going to be, oh, gee, whatever you want. Yeah, it's a very old school historian take on the whole thing. It's a very old school white historian take on the whole thing. Okay, thank you, Kristen. Yeah, we'll add that into, sure. To quote my grandfather. Uh-huh. What a bunch of numb nuts. Oh, your grandpa's finest moment, I would say.

Yep. Calling that guy a numb nuts. Everyone, I didn't know my grandfather even knew the term numnuts, but he called someone a numb nuts once. And guess what? The guy deserved it. Anyway, that's the end of that story. He did. He was fishing on your grandpa's property.

This is the most... Without permission. This is the most Missouri story anyone's ever heard. Called him numnuts. I guarantee you, there's some guy from Missouri listening to this right now. He's like, well, by God! Well, by God. That was a numb nuts.

I was called numn nuts by some old white guy one time. Maybe that was in him. Oh, no. Okay, fine. Go ahead. Okay, so personally, the idea of Pocahont is, being forced to marry John Rolf. I think this is a better take.

Well, no shit. There may have even been some Stockholm syndrome going on here. Sure. But personally, I do think it was a little more complicated than we're going to force you to marry this man. Okay. Because Poconis did have more agency than people give her credit for her. Okay. So first of all, there's no evidence that John Rolf wanted to force Pocohannis to marry him.

John Rolf was not a high society guy. He was not a super wealthy man. He was not going to be okay with having like a loveless marriage for power and money. Okay. Pocahontas didn't promise him sacks of gold. She didn't stand to inherit a tribe in Powhatan society. John Rolf loved her. He wanted to marry her.

But I do think if Pocahontas was like, no, I don't want to marry you, he would have been like, okay. I don't think so. I do. I think he was... You think he was a basically good guy? I don't want to say a good guy. There's definitely a power imbalance here. Sure.

But I don't think he was in the business of forcing someone to marry him. And I don't think he would be one to accept having a marriage like that as a lower-class citizen. You don't think that he saw this as an opportunity to move up in the world a little bit? Possibly. But I don't think he had the power to be like, well, if you say, no, I'm going to marry. you anyway. Judging by what you read to me from that letter, I don't think it occurred to him that she might say no, because here he is talking about how inferior she is. But he knows she's not really inferior. He knows the social standing that she has. They didn't just kidnap some

random woman. They kidnapped Pocahontas. Right. I think you're not giving him enough credit. Oh, yeah, we'll get into that a little bit more. Okay. Here's the other point I have. Pocahontas probably, well, definitely felt pressured to marry John Rolf. Which brings me to my second point, Kristen. Okay. A marriage like this was common in Powhatan society.

We talked about this in the first episode, but the Powhatan practiced intermarriage to form alliances between tribes. It's why Chief Wahoon Seneca had tons of wives. He solidified alliances. by adding his bloodline to tribal leadership. Pocahontas knew this better than anyone. She was Chief Wahoon Seneca's daughter. Pocahontas also knew that she would not become a Werawan squaw or a tribal leader in the Powhatan nation.

But the English, however, thought Pocahontas was a princess. They thought very highly of her status. Why they kidnapped her, as he mentioned. Pocahontas also understood the English were probably never going to leave Jamestown. And forming an alliance through intermarriage was the best way to ensure her own people would survive for the foreseeable future. And finally, my third point, Pocahontas was a prisoner.

And she had learned from her people that in order to survive a situation like that, you have to submit to your circumstances. The prospects of marrying John Rolfe would have been much better than her current situation, because it basically promised her freedom. Did Pocahontas love John Rolf? He certainly thought so in his eight-page love letter. He wrote that she had a quote, great appearance of love for me.

What do you think, Kristen? Of what, specifically? Do you think Pocahontas loved John Rolf? No. And I'm not saying like, oh my God, I'm so in love with you. Any form of love for John Rolf. I don't know. But I do think there's something to be said for this.

This is another thing we haven't touched on yet. I think if you're a woman in this position, you know that someone's going to come after you, whether it's sexual violence, whether it's, you know, someone's going to marry you. Someone's going to try something. And so, honestly, you get a marriage proposal from a guy who seems fine. And yeah, maybe you do feel some gratitude toward the guy. Maybe you're kind of like, huh, could be worse. Yeah, I actually think that's a really good point. Thank you.

I think she saw John Rolf as the lifestyle he can offer me is far superior than my current situation. And in fact, in Powhatan society, I'm sure that's what she was taught as well, that like, hey, if you're taking prisoner, or hostage by another tribe and you get offered marriage, you know, if the circumstance is good, you should take it because it's going to be way better than what you're in right now. Again, you might not have the opportunity to say no, but if we're talking about how she felt about him, I do think there's a definite possibility that she's like, hey, it could be worse. He seems decent. That's what you said when I asked for your hand in marriage.

I shrugged and said it could be a lot worse. Could be worse. It'd be way worse. Could also be better, but... But you know what? I'm not a betting woman. Settle. Settle, settle, settle, settle, settle.

But before Pocahontas and John Rolf could get married, Sir Thomas Dale wanted to use Pocahontas to his advantage. Of course. Yep. In March of 1614, he led a military expedition into the Powhatan Nation, and he brought Pocahontas and John Rolf with him. The party traveled up the York River in their ships, And along the banks of the river, Powhatan people were cursing at their arrival.

They were not on friendly terms right now, Kristen. They're at war. They're at war. Like crap and hell and damn. They said, damn it all to hell. It's them there English. Those numb nuts? They said.

Uh-oh, careful, careful. You crooked teeth looking British stupid. Sir Thomas Dale was like, Here ye, hear ye, we have Pocahontas on our ship. We are here to be peaceful as long as we get our weapons, we get hostages, and we get food from your Paramount Chief. Oh, wow, is that all? And guess what? If we don't get any of that, we're going to kill you, we're going to burn down your Yehakens, and we're going to take all your canoes.

Wow, okay. He should have written a book on negotiation. The Art of the Deal by Sir Thomas Dale. All you have to do is show up. and saying a really calm voice, Hi, I want everything you own. And if you don't give it to me, I'm going to kill you. There's something intimidating about that.

There is. There is. The English kept their word. So near what is now West Point, Virginia, not the Military Academy, West Point. Another West Point, a group of Powhatan warriors fired arrows at the English ship. So Sir Thomas Dale deborded and destroyed a nearby village. They killed six men and burned down 40 Yehakins. And this was perhaps the first time Pocahontas had seen actual warfare between the English and her people.

It was probably horrible to witness. And it was no doubt a motivating factor for her to go through with this marriage, to bring peace. The English soon arrived at the old capital village of Warewell Comico. The Powhatan had decided to inhabit the place again. And Sir Thomas Dale went full Karen. And he demanded to speak to the manager, aka Chief Wahoon Seneca. Hell yeah. And the Powhatan people were like,

he's not here right now, but you're free to wait for him if you want. Oh, that's going to piss this Karen off. Oh, yeah? Take it from me, an angry white woman. So Sir Thomas Dale waited. And he waited. Uh-huh. If you have the video version of this podcast,

you can see my reenactment of Sir Thomas Dale waiting. Oh, he's getting angrier and angrier, folks. Boy, was he growing impatient. He was like, What was that? That was Sir Thomas Dale. Actual audio recording. That's incredible that you have that, Norm.

Yeah, that's from Liar, Liar. Oh, okay. And when he was trying to say the pen is red, he's like, Okay, thank you. I don't know why that clip popped in my head when I was looking for a sound for that, but it works. You've got a beautiful mind, Norman. Were the Powhatan fucking with Sir Thomas Dale,

making him wait forever and ever and ever. whatever. We can only hope, Kristen. Anyway, he got impatient, so he kept going up river to look for Chief Wahoon Seneca. And eventually, Chief Wohun Seneca got the message that the English were here and that they had Pocahontas. And they sure would like to speak to him. Chief Wahoon Seneca said, Hell no. To the no, no, no, hell to the no.

There was no way he was going to put himself in danger. So instead, he sent two of his six. sons, half-brothers of Pocahontas, to meet with the English and to check on Pocahontas. So the two sons went on board the English ship, and there they saw Pocahontas, and her appearance probably shocked them because she was wearing English clothing now. Yeah. But they were also relieved because Pocahontas was alive and healthy. We don't know for sure, but it's possible at this meeting with her half-brothers, Pocahontas told them about the marriage proposal and how it could end.

this war, her brothers agreed, and they promised that they would go talk to their father and try to persuade him to make peace. But, like any good son-in-law, John Rolf wanted to meet with Chief Wahoon Seneca and ask permission to marry Pocahontas. Did he really? Yes. That's kind of cute. So John Rolf followed some Powhatan guides into the woods to meet with him. But Kristen, do you really think Chief Wahoon Seneca is going to meet with John Rolf? Hell no. Hell no. To the no, no, no.

Hell to the no. There's no way in hell he's going to meet with any Englishman, even if it is a cute piano playing dog Muppet. I get it now. You had to explain it, but I get it. So instead, John Rolfe met with Chief Wahoon Seneca's brother, Opie Chan Canoe, who we've talked about before in this series, he would speak on his brother's behalf.

With this marriage on the table, the situation became much different for the Powhatan Nation. It promised an end to hostilities. So they wanted to make it work. So Opie Chan-Kano was like, okay, we'll give you back your weapons. We will even send you some corn. But as far as your hostages, well, one of them's dead, and the other one ran away. So sorry about it.

But yeah, my brother does approve of the marriage. Chief Wahoon Seneca gave his blessing. Again, this was a thing in poverty in society. Okay, I'm going to have to interrupt you, Norm. This is a thing in a lot of societies. European royalty, they were always doing the marriages in an effort to build alliances. Oh, you're right, Kristen. Thank you very much for making that point.

Marriage was much different back then, is what we're trying to say. No, I disagree. Oh. Our families had been feuding for generations. and our marriage, which neither of us wanted to go through with, nonetheless has brought a lot of peace to this great nation, don't you agree? We're married? I'm not happy, but at least there's peace. With that, Pocahontas said goodbye to her brothers,

and the ship headed back to Jamestown. Before this marriage could take place, there was one more important step. Baptism! Hooray! Otherwise, this marriage would be illegitimate. You can't marry a heathen, Kristen. I'm always saying it. Yeah.

In April of 1614, Pocahontas renounced her pagan ways and confessed her faith in Jesus Christ. Reverend Alexander Whitaker asked her, Dost thou believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth? And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten son, our Lord, and that he was conceived by the Holy Ghost born. of the virgin Mary. Yes, she said. And Pocahontas would have replied,

Yes. Actually, she would have said, All this I steadfastly believe. Now, was she actually serious about this conversion? Or was it more like that John Mayer song? Say what you need to say. Say what you need to say.

Is that John Mayer? It is John Mayer. Oh, okay. Boy, what's he up to these days? Nobody knows. But you know what? We've got the out. afternoon. We've got room for two.

No, I'm... Oh, you're... Discovering me. Okay. Discovering you. Bodies of Wonderland. When you say that to me, I want you to say it like you mean it, okay? I was saying it to you.

I was like, your buddies are Wonderland. Your body's in Wonderland. You got those pimples on your butt, and I'm like, how'd that happen? And then, uh, I don't know, it's kind of lumpy and bumpy. And I have a choice. This was an arranged... It really makes me wonder. I didn't win the lottery with the pimples on the butt.

Oh, Norm! Norm! These are very rare. Like jewels, like rubies. Think of them like rubies. Kristen, I love the pimples on your butt. I think they're very cute. Oh, my God.

I'm supposed to say thank you, Norman. Oh, thank you, Norman. You know, just the other day I was like, do I overshare? And I think... On this podcast? In general. But I think this episode is proof that, no, I definitely don't. Anyhow, continue.

So we don't really know for sure if she was serious about this conversion. Oftentimes when indigenous people were forced to convert, they would incorporate Jesus into their own faith, kind of like a mesh of the two. Sure. So what do you think? Do you think she, like, actually wanted to convert? I don't, I don't think she did, but. No, I mean, I bet you if she had a real choice, like, do you want to continue on?

on this weird path or do you want to go back to your peaceful life with your husband and your child she would have chosen that but like you know what are you going to do you're going to get dunked in a river and told the power of christ compels you i don't know how these things that's an exorcism christian that's a little offensive for pocahontas take the devils out of her good lord boy are we going to get canceled maybe um pocahontas was also a good given a new Christian name. Well, that didn't stick. What was it?

Rebecca. Ew, really? I actually do like that name. I think Rebecca's a beautiful name. Our next dog should be Rebecca. Becky for short? No, I hate that. Rebecca.

Okay. Rebecca or Becca, never Becky. What about Reb? Or Reba. Is Reba short for Rebecca? Probably. I've never thought of it. Thanks a lot.

lot. I hope it is. History hoes let us know. I don't think it is. I think Riba is its own name. What if Riba herself reaches out? That would be amazing. If she listened to an old-timey podcast?

I would shit my pants. She said, hey, I'm on break from judging on the voice, and I was listening to your latest episode on Pocahontas. And I just want to let you know, Riba is its own name. It's not short for Rebecca. And I signed up for Hello Fresh. I got 10 free meals. Norm, I was fully buying it, fully loving it.

Until she signed up for Hello Fresh. And I'm like, there's no way Reba doesn't have a private chef making all those meals for. She has Mr. Hello Fresh himself making meals. On April 5th, 1614, Pocahontas officially married John Rolf. In attendance were several Powhatan people, including a few members of Pocahontas' family. Chief Wahoon Seneca did not attend for his own protection, but he did offer Pocahontas a wedding gift, a pearl necklace, from the oysters in the Chesapeake Bay.

Pearls were considered extremely rare, so this was quite a lavish gift. And as we know, Pocahontas always loved white beads. And these were like the Gucci of white beads. Yeah, they were. Pocahontas and John Rolfe were declared husband and wife, And with that, the first Anglo-Powatan war was over. It had lasted five years.

I mean, that's really incredible. Yeah. That this could end with a marriage. Yeah. And I don't know the right words or how to say this, but it's almost like Pocahont is like sacrificing herself. Yeah. For her people and for the greater good. Yes.

Yeah. It's amazing. The following years were the most peaceful since the English first arrived. back in 1607. The Powhatan even started their own businesses. Hey. It's an MLM. It's a pyramid scheme.

Hey, Kristen, do you suck at hunting? How about if you hire a Powhatan guide to show you the best hunting spots and how to snag that big old buck? It's only three easy payments of metal, trinkets, or weapons. Operators are standing by. I love it. Yeah. And then in turn, the English offered lessons to the Powhatan Warriors on how to

to shoot guns. Well, yeah, I mean, you do need a lesson if you're going to get one of those things. Sure. They are very complicated looking those old-timey guns. It seemed like that distrust between the two sides was like melting away. The two nations even came together during a poor harvest in 1615. They worked together and traded to ensure the survival of everybody. Hostilities still happened, of course.

But they were much more infrequent. It was an imperfect piece. This time period is referred to as the golden age of the Jamestown settlement. And they had Pocahontas to thank for that. Meanwhile, Pocahontas moved in with John Rolfe on his tobacco farm. She helped him tend to the crops. She was accustomed to that work. She did it all the time in Powhatan society.

More than likely, Pocahontas also brought in several Powhatan people to help out around the plantation. Some were probably indentured servants. Tobacco was now starting to take off, and there was a lot of. no way John Rolf and Pocahontas could harvest it all alone. In January of 1615, nine months after their marriage, Pocahontas and John Rolfe had a son, and they named him Thomas, after Sir Thomas Dale, the governor of Jamestown. John Rolfe felt blessed. He wrote, quote, the great blessings of God have followed this piece. What a beautiful story, Kristen. I have a feeling it's not over. Of course, all of what I just told you is,

based mostly on English sources. Native oral history paints a far different picture of this whole marriage. I bought that thing, hook, line, and sinker. And we're going to learn more about it after this word from our sponsor. Doodaloo! Folks, we recently decided to upgrade to a king bed. Because our little dog kit is sneaking onto the bed at night and hogging up all the space. She was all up in your business last night, Chris.

Don't say it that way, but she was. And with a new bed, that means we had to get new bed sheets. And for that, we turn to Miracle Made. Why Miracle Made? Because traditional bedsheets can harbor more bacteria than a darn toilet seat. Even a fancy heated toilet seat like ours, Kristen. And all that bacteria can lead to acne, possibly on your butt. Allergies, stuffy noses, it's just gross.

But Miracle Made offers a whole line of. self-cleaning anti-bacterial bedding such as sheets, pillowcases, comforters that prevent up to 99.7% of bacteria growth and require up to three times less laundry. Holy smokes, that's better for the planet too. But my favorite part, Kristen, is the temperature regulating properties, because as you know, I get hot A.F. at night, and Miracle Made sheets are thermoregulating and designed to keep you at the perfect temperature all night long. Miracle made sheets are luxuriously comfortable. Without that high price tag of other luxury brands,

you'll feel like you are sleeping in at least a five-star hotel, if not more stars. They go all the way up to eight. Go to try miracle.com slash OTP to try miracle made sheets today. And whether you're buying them for yourself or as a gift for a loved one, if you order today, you can save over 40%. And if you use our promo, OTP, at checkout, you'll get a free three-piece towel set and save an extra 20%.

Holy smokes! Miracle is so confident in their product, it's backed by a 30-day money-back guarantee. So if you aren't 100% satisfied, you'll get a full refund. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made. Go to try miracle.com. and use the code OTP to claim your free three-piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's try miracle.com slash OTP to treat yourself. Thank you, Miracle Maid, for sponsoring this incredible episode of an old-timey podcast.

And we're back from the ad. Doodaloo! Doodoo! I got to put my own spin on the doodoolews. Oh boy, Kristen. Hope you're ready for some terrible stuff. Okay. It's time to enter the no spin zone, as I am calling it. Here on an old-timey podcast, we pride ourselves on being fair and balanced, Kristen.

So, what does native oral history say about Poca Honus' marriage to John Rolf? I'm guessing they don't call it the golden age. No, they did not call it the golden age, Kristen. It's much grimmer than that, unfortunately. Let's rewind a little. So, according to native oral history, history, Pocahontas became overwhelmed after her abduction. She had been separated from her husband and child, her friends, her family. She was depressed. She could not leave Jamestown. And the English were like, wow,

why is Pocahontas so upset? Hmm, weird. Why is she so sad all the time? So they actually sent for her sister, Matachana, to come and take care of her. Matajana arrived and found Pocahontas was tired. nauseous, emotionally disturbed. And when Montacana inquired about her situation, Pocahontas confided to her sister that she had been raped. Oh. She thought she might even be pregnant. The English were trying to hide her pregnancy.

They moved her from Jamestown to the less populated Henrico to make sure that people didn't catch on to what was going on. And eventually Pocahontas gave birth to a boy named Thomas. It's unclear who the father was. Native oral history suggests that more than likely, the father was the governor, Sir Thomas Dale. He had full access to Pocahontas at both Jamestown and Henrico. It could also explain why they named the child Thomas. Yeah.

Native historians also point out that Thomas's birth was recorded, but not really in great detail. There was no specific date or birthplace written down, which I do feel. find pretty odd. Native historians believe this lack of detail is further proof that Thomas was a product of rape. As far as Pocahontas's marriage to John Rolfe, no, she did not love John Rolfe. There is a supreme power imbalance. How could there be love? Pocahontas just hoped that the marriage would bring peace. Plus, she now had a half-white child that would form a bond between the two nations. When she married him, was she pregnant? Very good question, Kristen.

Okay. Native oral history says Thomas was born before she married John Rolfe. English sources say Thomas Rolf was born nine months after their marriage. But again, those birth records, not a lot of detail. Was that normal for birth records back then or not so much? I think it was normal to not have a lot of detail, but I also am like, this was a very, very special marriage. Yeah. This was a child from that very special marriage.

You would think they would have written a little more down about it. Right. Native historians also think that John Rolf may not have loved Pocahontas either. He just wanted to marry her so he could get help from the Powhatan for his tobacco farm. Sure. This oral history has existed for a long, long time among descendants of the Powhatan nation. But it really became well known in 2007 with the publication of the book The True Story of Pocahontas. Oh.

Which is the native oral history finally written down for the public to read. Other historians took issue with this take from oral history. Powhatan scholar Helen Roundtree casts doubt on the whole story. She says, quote, any mistreatment of Pocahontas would have gone against the interests of the English in their negotiations with the Powhatan. A truce had been called. The Powhatan still far outnumbered the English and the colonists feared retaliation. Kristen, what do you think? I think that's remarkably stupid.

Why? Because it assumes that everyone is acting in their own best interests, which is oftentimes not the case with human beings. and rape is a crime of power. It's about dominating someone. And I'm sorry, I completely buy the possibility that Pocahontas was raped by one of her captors. Even if it is a bad idea to rape someone. Not a good idea. Yeah.

It's often not a good idea to rape someone, and yet it continues to happen. Also the fact that the English were known for raping Powhatan women at this time. Yes. The other thing is the English had been violent toward the Powhatan. I mean, that whole opinion of like, oh, well, they were outnumbered and oh, they wanted peace. Well, how do you explain all these other actions that took place? Like their little food expeditions and whatnot? Yes.

So this is one of the reasons why I love history so much. because we're constantly getting these new sources of information like this oral history. And it allows us to analyze and kind of reinterpret the past. And I know that's super nerdy, but it's super exciting to me as well. Yeah. So I did think it was important that I mentioned that source about the story of Pocahontas and her marriage to John Rolf. No, I love that. Thank you.

contrary to what we've just said, we actually do have a marriage of love, and I love that you nerd out about things. Oh, thank you, Kristen. I also love that our marriage has brought so much peace to the Pitts Caruso's. We were feuding for years. The Great Chicken Bake War is what we called it. I ate the last chicken bake and your father went apeshit. That's true. Okay, I am really into chicken bakes lately, but you have to get them first.

fresh from the Costco food court. Do not get the frozen ones. Get them fresh. They are so good in a great value. $3.99 for like a foot long chicken bake. Everyone, they're not that great. Kristen, let me finish hers. I just.

But she, you scarfed it down. Don't act like you. I was very hungry. And yeah, I ate some of it. I just don't want people coming at us. Like, hey, the chicken bakes from Costco kind of suck. When meanwhile, I'm sitting here kind of knowing that they kind of suck.

Interesting. We pride ourselves on honesty on this podcast. We're fair, we're balanced, we're honest about the Costco chicken bits. Sexy? Also sexy. Thank you. I almost forgot. I don't know how, but I almost did.

So either way, history hoes, you have heard from a variety of sources about the marriage of Pocahontas and John Rolf. Everybody agrees that the marriage brought peace. And one man who was really, really happy about it was the governor of Jamestown, Sir Thomas Dale. In fact, it gave him an idea, Kristen. What if we had more marriages between the Powhatan and the English? That would make the alliance even stronger.

That's actually not a bad idea. Yeah. He sent a message to Chief Wahoon Seneca with a proposal. Send over your hottest ladies. He was like, sir, may I please marry Pocahontas's younger half-sister? Sure, she might be 11 years old. Oh! While I'm 40 years old.

Oh, gross. Also a rapist probably. And look, I know I'm already married. What? But please don't tell my wife. I really think this would be great for everybody. Oh my God. Get out of here.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, sir Thomas Dale. Chill out. Chief Wahoon Sanika didn't even let the messenger finish talking. He interrupted him immediately and was like, hell no to the no, no, no, no. No. Leave those kids alone. Yes. He said, look, you've already got.

one of my children. Yeah. My 11-year-old is reserved for a tribal leader in the future. We already have peace. Can we just call it a day? Right. Go away, please. God.

And then Chief Wahoon Seneca was like, if you come back here with more of these crazy demands like child brides, I will move my people again. Yeah. Deep into the woods. And I may be old now, but I'll do it. Yeah. Don't test me.

I've got a rascal scooter and I'm just going to. to drive that thing into the woods. Yeah, actually, it was a hover round. Oh, very cool. Be careful at the Grand Canyon. He's very far away from the Grand Canyon. Very flat and swampy area. I think he'll be okay.

But the wheels might get stuck a little bit. So this was the last known recorded interaction between Chief Wahoon Seneca and the English. Two years later, in 1616, the Powhatan Nation in the English were still living peacefully. Pocohannis and John Rolfe lived with their baby bowl. Thomas at their plantation, and they were now shipping out pounds and pounds of tobacco. And the initial returns were good.

The Virginia company was feeling pretty good about it. Sure. But still, the company was in the red, Kristen. They needed more financial support, and more specifically, they wanted more people to make the journey to Virginia. A lot of English folks were still too nervous to move to the new world. It all seemed so mysterious and dangerous. The Virginia Company certainly wasn't going to get any help from King James I first. He was always very passive when it came to support for the colony.

In fact, King James was outraged at the marriage between Pocahontas and John Rolf. He called it treasonous that John Rolfe would marry the daughter of a, quote, savage king. Other fart sniffers in England were also mad about it. They couldn't believe a commoner like John Rolfe could even make. marry a princess like Pocahontas. It's like they're just making shit up to be mad about. Mm-hmm. The Virginia company decided they needed to do a little marketing campaign to drum up interest

in Virginia. And their idea was, hey, let's bring Lady Rebecca, aka Pocahontas, to England. Let's show her off to royalty, to the clergy, to merchants. Let's show how she is now a proper English lady and that things are really swell in Virginia. That'll convince people to support the colony. What do you think? I think this sounds horrible for her. Oh, you don't know the half of it, Kristen. Oh, okay. Great. So John Rolf brought the idea to Pocahontas, and Pocahontas had always been adventurous and curious about things, so she agreed to go to England. In April of 1616, about 100 people boarded a ship named the Treasurer and set off for England.

Fun fact. Okay, this is a really fun. Okay. The treasurer was the same ship used to kidnap Pocahontas. Oh. Retramatized much? Mm-hmm. And the captain of the ship was Captain Argyll, the man who kidnapped Pocahontas.

Oh, my God. Isn't that fun? Boy, the temptation to throw him overboard. Yeah, really. So who all is going to go on this marketing campaign? We have the governor, Sir Thomas Dale. John Rolf and Pocahontas, their son, Thomas Rolf, several English colonists, and about 10 to 12 Powhatan people, including Pocahontas's sister, Matachana, and her husband, a Chiakros priest named Utamatimakin. So why did these other Powhatan people make the journey as well?

We don't really know for sure, but my assumption is that Chief Wahun Seneca demanded, they go, because he wanted information on on the English homeland. Okay. Chief Wahoon Seneca had previously relied on the interpreter boy, Namantak, to give him information about the English. But as you remember from our last episode, Kristen, Namintech died mysteriously in Bermuda. Yeah. Chief Wahun Seneca never found out about his untimely demise.

So he was like, where the fuck is Namintech? I haven't heard from that kid. So he had to go get a new spy, and that was his son-in-law, Utamatimakin. Chief Wahoon Seneca ordered him to scout out England. How many people lived in this country? What's their society like? What's the king like? Give me the details.

It would be so hard to even describe the differences. And we're going to get to that for sure. Actually, this next section right here. Oh, here we go. I don't think anything could have prepared Utamata McKin or Pocahontas for what they were about to experience. Hell no. So first, let's talk about the journey to England. It was rough.

The Powhatan were used to traveling down a river and then camping out at night. Right. This ship was not stopping. There was no camping out. They were at sea for two months. Oh my God. Lots of puking ensued. Ew, Norm, that's the worst sound.

I'm so happy I was able to bring that sound back. Wow. In June of 1616, their ship sailed. into Plymouth, one of England's largest ports. Compared to Powhatan villages, Plymouth was enormous. It was busy. There were people everywhere. It would have been a huge culture shock for Pocahontas and her Powhatan friends.

And then a few days later, they arrived in London. London had a population of 200,000 people. Holy shit. In a couple of square miles. One or two square miles. Yeah. That's a ton of people. concentrated in one area.

To compare, the entire Powhatan nation had a population of around 15,000 to 20,000 people in 6,000 square miles. Yeah. Pocahontas probably noticed the rows and rows of buildings. Streets made of mud

filled with endless people. There was construction going on everywhere. Multiple ships in the rivers. It was so noisy, so much noise. Utamata McKin's head was probably spinning. The English power in Jamestown was tiny compared to England itself. How on earth could he explain what he saw to Chief Wahoon Seneca? I don't think you can. I think you have to see it for yourself.

I'm just like, just the fact that he was like, count how many people are there. And you get there and you're like, I can't count these people. Well, and it's just a totally different thing than what you've ever seen before. You're coming from a society where the leader can literally say, treat me this way again, and I will take everyone and we will disappear. Okay, that can't happen in London. They're not going to pick up their flats and go running with them. The flats? Yeah.

They're not going to knock down Big Ben and everybody. All right, everyone, everyone, if we get about 50 people, I think we can carry Big Ben out of here. You're right, Kristen. And we talked about that on maybe like two episodes. ago about how yeah the Powhatan were semi-nomadic yeah could move around not going to happen here in london the virginia company provided carriages and took everyone to their hotel the bell savage in really i knew you're going to say that i knew it i even have it in my script right here i know you're thinking was it really called the bell savage inn was this some sort of joke they were playing

right pocahontas it was not a joke it was actually a pretty famous hotel at the time and it was run by a family with the last name of Savage. Oh, okay. Yeah. Boy, that's the nicest possible explanation for that. I know. Well, I remember in episode two or three, we talked about how Chief Wahoon Seneca was giving an English interpreter boy named Thomas Savage. Yes.

And you were freaked out about that as well. I was. I was like, that's just his last name. Calm down. All right. Bokanus was given more English outfits to wear. And boy, these were stiff. One included a corset with a piece of wood that ran along her stomach to ensure a certain shape.

Gross. No, God, please no! No! That's what she's screaming as they put it on her. Give you those rock-hard abs. Hey. Yeah, and I think it was for like not only to maintain shape, but to make sure there were no wrinkles in your dress. Well, yeah, there sure wouldn't be.

Okay. You're really stretching out that. You know, one episode we should wear corsets or bodices on this podcast. I think for the December bonus episode, we should do little holiday sweaters. A December to remember. A sales event. That's right. We do have some fun Christmas sweaters.

I don't. I don't own a single one. What about your gingerbread one? You have like a navy blue one with white gingerbread men on it? I got rid of it. Why? I don't know. It was a fit of like Marie Kondo Madness.

I'm going to have to like get a new thing. sweater. Oh man. Damn you, Marie Condos. No. No, she's very helpful to a lot of people. Okay, so Pocahontas is now in London. The Virginia Company is setting up meet and greets. Come and meet Lady Rebecca, aka the Indian Princess. Ooh. And those appointments filled up fast, Kristen. I'm sure. Pocahontas met members of London's high society, like the Lord Bishop of London. and she met Sir Walter Raleigh, the guy who had been in charge of that failed lost colony at Roanoke. Oh, shit, okay.

Yeah, I can't believe you're still alive. Really? Bocahontas attended dinners and social gatherings, and the biggest event was a Royal Mask performance. You ever heard of a mask? M-A-S-Q-U-E. No. It's not really a play.

It's more like a show. It had dancers, singing, costumes. And these things were like three hours long. Okay. It sounds absolutely awful. No, think of how bored everyone was back then. Yeah, you're right. Yes, this was like the most amazing thing.

This would have been like life-changing. Yes. Pocahontas was a distinguished guest at the mask and was seated prominently near King James I and his wife, Queen Anne. Big deal. This is just insane culture shock. Yeah. This had to be the weirdest, wildest thing. No kidding.

I bet she enjoyed the mask performance, though. I hope so. What if she was like, how about it sucked? How about I was bored stiff? Stiff is this bored in my corset? Ooh. And the mask performers cry. They're devastated.

But no one knows because they're wearing masks. Ah. I don't, yeah, I'm sure they wear wearing masks. Anyway, Pocahontas also sat for. a portrait painting. Many of you history hoes have probably seen this painting. Yes. A beautiful dark-skinned woman,

high cheekbones, dark black hair, brown eyes. She's wearing a fancy hat. She has a lace neck collar. She's holding ostrich feathers. Very wealthy thing back then to have ostrich feathers. As far as I know, this is the only portrait

ever done of Pocahontas. Sadly, later renditions of this portrait gave Pocahontas much lighter skin. Hmm. We tend to do that, don't we? Yeah. I looked at it, and I was like, oh, they just made her white.

Yeah. Pocahontas was a lady about town, but it would be wrong to say that Pocahontas was seen as like a celebrity. She was sadly more of a curiosity to the English. She was commonly referred to as the Virginia woman. People often looked at her like they would look at an exotic plant or an animal.

It was dehumanizing. During her visit, Pocahontas became sick. England had introduced thousands and thousands of new bacteria and germs to her body. And she had no immunity. Back then, the world wasn't connected like it is today. Germs were different everywhere you went. Health-wise, it was kind of dangerous to travel to a new place. Well, and she's meeting everyone.

Yeah. She's not just going somewhere and hanging out. She's not... She's meeting a lot of people. Ugh. But luckily, Kristen, germs had not been invented yet in 1616. So the English were like, oh, the air is just way too smoky here in London. That's why you're sick.

And so Pocahontas and the rest of her party moved out to the Burbs, the countryside town of Brentford. And it seemed to help a lot. It was much more peaceful. Pocahontas was tired of the constant meetings and people gawking at her all the time. She enjoyed strolling the countryside with her two-year-old son, Thomas. She probably spoke to him with a mix of English and Powhatan words. Time in the countryside made Pocahontas homesick. By the end of the year 1616, she was ready to go back home.

And so was her brother-in-law, Utamattimikin. He was making a name for himself in London for his combative disagreements with the Englishman. Oh, shit. He flat out refused to accept the Lord Jesus Christ. Oh, no. He was constantly correcting the English about his own gods. He was like, you completely misunderstand my religion. Yeah.

Kristen, he even talked trash about King James I first. Oh, well, that seems dangerous. Okay, but he had a good point. Well, I'm sure he did. He said, King James ain't a king because he's an asshole. He's super stingy. He gave my father-in-law a freaking dog as a gift. He gave the Paramount Chief a dog.

That is just a bullshit gift. Okay, well, I'm a dog lover, and I don't mean that in a creepy way where I should be arrested. Little dog lover. That's your username on AOL. Stop. No, you're exactly right. He's right. He sees all that the English have, and he's like, you fuckers showed up on my shores,

and you gave my father-in-law a set of red silk pajamas and a little greyhound dog, and you expected him to bend the knee. A snuggy curtains and a fucking greyhound dog. And yeah, he is looking around and like, what the fuck? That's what he got? That's how much you respect him. He's not a king. Yeah.

Unfortunately, Pocahontas and the others, they couldn't leave England just yet. They had to wait for the right weather conditions. While staying in Brentford, Pocahontas and John Rolf received a surprise guest one day, Captain John Smith. Oh, this bitch. John Smith had fully recovered from his gunpowder explosion accident. He had even returned to the New World, though not to the Powhatan region. He explored the New England area near what is now modern-day Massachusetts and Maine. He had also been busy writing.

Specifically, his book, A Mep of... of Virginia with a description of the country, the commodities, people, government, and religion. His newest hit was A Description of New England or Observations and Discoveries in the North of America in the Year of Our Lord, 1614, with the success of six ships that went the next year, 1615. That was the title? Yeah. It was actually chosen for Reese's Book Club. John Smith had learned that his old friend Pocahontas was visiting England, and he wanted to stop by and pay her a visit. When Pocahontas saw John Smith, she was shocked. She fell silent.

Pocahontas had not seen him since she was 11 years old, almost eight years ago. Her memories of him were vivid, his meetings with her father, Chief Wahoon Seneca. They're language lessons together at Jamestown. But the memories weren't all good. Yeah. He was a reminder of the pain and suffering her people experienced. He had lied constantly to her father. He had killed people and burned villages when they refused to trade with him.

Pocahontas had always been told John Smith was dead. And maybe all those painful memories died with that thought. But now he was standing here alive. And everything came flooding back to her. It was all too much for Pocahontas. without saying a word she turned and left the room. She wanted to be alone. John Smith was confused.

Oh, my God. He thought that Pocahontas had simply forgotten English and was too embarrassed to speak to him. Oh, my God. Oh, good heavens! He stuck around and talked with John Rolfe for a little bit. But three hours later, Pocahontas reemerged. And to John Smith's surprise, she spoke.

It started off somewhat cordial, but maybe a little accusatory. She said, you promised Wahoon Seneca, what was yours should be his, and he the like to you. You call him father being in his land as a stranger, and by the same reason, so must I do you. John Smith tried to interrupt her with some flattery, like, oh, that's not necessary. You don't have to call me father, blah, blah, blah. But then Pocahontas got angry. She exclaimed, You were not afraid to come into my father's country

and cause fear in him and all of his people. And yet here, you fear that I call you father? I tell you then, I will call you father. And you shall call me child. And so I will be forever your countryman. Pocahontas also did not appreciate being lied to about his death. But I guess she wasn't surprised.

She finished her outburst by saying, your countrymen will lie much. It was a proverbial spanking. Yeah. If you'd like a modern translation of what she said, she basically was like, you promised my father honesty and fairness, and you turned your back on him,

you betrayed him. It was supremely disrespectful, and you are a lying coward son of a bitch. Yeah. And the only reason you got away with it is because of a lie that you were dead. Pocohannas was done being peaceful and passive. She demanded respect and she was not afraid of retaliation because now she was on John Smith's turf. John Smith was pretty taken aback by this outburst.

And soon after their conversation, Pocohanus showed his ass the door. She was like, bye, thanks for visiting. Wow. So good. You know what's amazing about that? Huh. That all comes from John Smith's writings. He included that, getting his ass handed to him by Pocahontas. Yeah. Why do you think he included that? I don't know. It makes him look terrible, but maybe it was so shocking he had to include it. Uh-huh. What do you think?

I think it's also possible that he, you know, sometimes people think they're telling one story when they're really telling another. Maybe he thinks he's telling a story about this savage, you know, acting out and going crazy, this woman going crazy. When really he doesn't realize that maybe in a few years people will get a different perspective on him and he won't be the hero of a story. He'll be the villain. and he will have included a story of him getting a verbal spanking much deserved. That line is brilliant where she goes, you caused all this fear for my father and my people, and yet you're afraid of me calling you father. And she wanted to do it as a sign of respect, obviously, because she was new to his land in England. But, yeah, for her to just call his ass out, it's powerful.

Okay, I disagree with you on why she's calling him father. I think it's a, here's the relationship my father offered to you. Right. Here's what my father was willing to give to you and what you accepted and what you claim to go along with. But you know what you did. You know how you treated him. You know how you treated us. Yeah.

And I'm not going to let you forget that. I'm not going to let you forget that promise you made. and my reminder to you is I'm going to call you father and you're going to call me child. Because if I call you John and you call me Pocahontas, then that allows you to forget the agreement you made. Yeah, you're right. This is the ultimate ass kicking. I love it. Yeah, you're right.

Oh, thank you. No, that's, that is correct. You got to think like a vengeful lady. Damn right, Kristen. That's why you need a vengeful lady historian to be like, no, no, no, Norm, this is not a respect thing at all. Well, and I wonder if that's how John Smith interpreted it. He's like, oh, maybe that's why he included it in his writing. He's like, oh, look how respectful she's being of me.

Maybe. I don't know, but man, that's, when I read that, I was just like, damn. I was pretty much dead silent the entire time you told that. I mean, it was just, it was wild because there's so much where we're having to guess at how she felt and what she thought. And in a lot of cases, it's kind of easy. You know, she's kidnapped. Gee, how did she feel about that? Probably not great.

Yeah. But this is pretty incredible. One of the few times her actual words were recorded in English sources. Yeah. And it was a ass kicking of Johnson. I'm going to give you a 50 gallon barrel of everything. Yes, whooping, John Smith. In March of 1617, the weather was clear, the wind was strong, it was time to go home.

Unfortunately, it looked like it was going to be a rough journey. Most of the Powhatan people, including Pocahontas and her son Thomas, were sick. English microbes were taking their toll. It's not clear what exactly Pocahontas was suffering from. More than likely, it was pneumonia or tuberculosis. I love the way you say tuberculosis. Okay. Let me take it again.

It's a disease of tubes. First, this tube gets sick, then the next one, and then all your tubes are fucked. You don't want the tuberculosis. I'm going to take it again. I've made a bit out of it. Now we can't cut it. Just keep on going, Norm. She had either pneumonia or tuberculosis.

Is that better? Joe, leave it all in. Okay, okay. their ship set off down the Thames River, but before they could even reach the English Channel, John Rolf begged Captain Argyll to stop the ship. Pocahontas was too sick to continue the journey. The ship docked in the port town of Gravesend.

John Rolfe brought Pocahontas to the local inn where she could rest, and they probably sent for a doctor, but the field of medicine still had a ways to go. Pocahontas's lungs were filling up with fluid. She struggled to breathe. There was nothing that could be done. John Rolf sat by her side and sobbed. Everything seemed to be happening so quickly.

Pocahontas noticed her grieving husband and spoke. Her last words to John Rolfe were a reflection of her Powhatan roots, that people live and work for the good of everyone, not just the individual. She told him, All must die. It's enough that the child lives. soon after Pocahontas died She was 20 years old

Wow It's just incredible Everything she went through Yeah And she was 20 It's enough for a lifetime What she went through Yeah

On March 21st 1617 Pocahontas was buried At the St. George's Church In gravesend England Her exact resting place is unknown St. George's Church was later destroyed by a fire in the 1700s, but then rebuilt. Black Alert. Oh.

In 1958, a life-sized bronze statue of Pocahontas was erected in the yard of St. George's Church. It was a gift from the governor of Virginia, and it's a replica of the same statue that is up at Jamestown. It's definitely inaccurate. Pocahontas is wearing the wrong type of clothing for a Powhatan woman, but it's still a beautiful. statue. After the funeral, Captain Argyll said they needed to leave quickly because the weather could change soon. But John Rolf was worried about his son, Thomas. He was also sick and not doing well. Captain Argoll recommended that John Rolf should leave Thomas in England. Oh dear God. He wouldn't survive the journey home to Jamestown. But John Rolf refused. Thomas was all he had left.

Rolf saw in his son, quote, The Living Ashes of his deceased mother. But by the time the ship reached the port of Plymouth, John Rolf changed his mind. He left Thomas with his brother, Henry Rolf. In a letter, he asked that Henry send Thomas to Virginia when he was older and stronger. John Rolf would never see his son again.

In May of 1617, John Rolf and the others returned to Jamestown. He quickly told the Powhatan people, about what happened to Pocahontas and where her son Thomas was. The news eventually reached Chief Wahoon Seneca, who was now enjoying the retired life. Chief Wahoon Seneca had decided he was too old for this shit. Good for him. And he retired to a Padawomac village along the Potomac River. He left the Powhatan nation to his brother, Opie Chan Canoe, a warrior and warrants of the Pamunkey tribe.

Wahoon Seneca was devastated by the death of Pocahontas. But like Pocahontas, he took solace in the fact that their son, Thomas, was alive, and he hoped to meet him one day. But Father Time eventually caught up to Chief Wahun Seneca. He died a year later of unknown causes. Opie Chan Canoe, the new Paramount Chief, did his best to preserve the Powhatan Nation. But with John Rolf's tobacco crop taking off in England, the English were encroaching on Powhatan territory more and more and more. Opie Chan-Kano was not happy about it. He refused to give up more land to the English when they asked.

The only land he was willing to give up was to his grand nephew, Thomas Rolf, because he was entitled to it by blood. Yeah. The Powhatan Nation was also dealing with a new problem from the English. residential schools. Oh. The Virginia company had raised some pretty decent money from Pocahontas' visit to England, and a lot of that money was invested into residential schools. The English wanted to convert Powhatan children while they were young.

Opie Chanquino took a hard stance against this idea. He did encourage whole families to live with the English, as long as they were given land and resources. But... And I assume as long as they could... be themselves. Right. But a child

going off alone was out of the question. But the biggest news may have been what Opie Chan Kano learned from

his nephew Utamatamakin. Utamatimikin told him everything he had seen in England and it didn't paint

a pretty picture for the future. Opie Chan Kano worried that if the Powhatan nation didn't act

quickly, they would be overrun. In 1619, the first African enslaved people arrived in

James Town. about 20 or so. The English forced them to work their ever-expanding tobacco fields. Slave laws ensured they had little to no rights. This was not the first time enslaved African people had arrived in North America, but it certainly set the stage for the institution of slavery in the future United States. And by arrived in America, you mean taken to America? You're right.

Okay. This was not a luxury cruise, my mistake. Just making sure. We're here. Uh-huh. The year 1622 was a turning point. That year in March, John Rolf died from an unknown illness. He was 37 years old.

Hey, that's how old I am. Jeez, these folks died young, didn't they? Fun fact, huh? By then, John Rolfe had remarried. He had another child, a daughter. But in his will, John left everything, his land, his profits, his royalties, to his son, Thomas Rolf. The next month in April of 1622, Opie Chancono launched an all-out assault on the English. Chief Wahoon Seneca had always used a strategy of containment.

But Opie Chanquino was a warrior. He preferred more violent methods. He truly believed that the Powhatan Nation could wipe out the English, but they had to act quickly because he now knew what lay waiting in England. Yeah. The Powhatan Nation killed about a quarter. of the English settlers, about 400 people. Wow.

They had been planning the attack for months and total secrecy. It caught the English completely off guard. It was the beginning of the second Anglo-Pawatan War, and it would last for 10 years. It's amazing how much time is going by in this story. Yeah. when we think about like the founding of this country and how much it took like how long it took we're only in the early 1600s you know well and i'm even amazed at like okay those residential schools if you had asked me when do you think those started it would not have been this early yeah that's ridiculous i was shocked by that too in 1631 john smith died at the age of He wrote extensively about the New World and his encounters with indigenous people. He was one of the main propagandists encouraging people to make the journey to the new world.

A statue of him at Jamestown includes the inscription, Fincere est Viverr, to live is to conquer. Ew. Can we melt that down? Sell it for scraps, maybe. Let's melt it. I'll give you 25 bucks for this statue. great. I'm going to go conquer a couple cheese burgers with that.

You can get two quarter pounders at least for that. All right. Apologies for my Latin. It's a little rusty. Vincere est Viverr? Yeah, history hose, let me know if I'm way off there. In 1635, Thomas Rolf finally made it to Virginia.

He's about 20 years old. Okay. And he even established a connection with Opie Chanconot who had somehow survived the second Anglo-Poatian. War, and he was still leading the Powhatan nation. Damn, okay. But war would tear them apart.

In 1644, Opi Chancono launched another assault on the English, and this was the third Anglo-Pawatan War. Thomas Rolf was forced to pick a side, and ultimately, he fought against his mother's people. He was promised 400 acres of land for his service. The war didn't last long. Two years later in 1646, Opie Chankano was finally captured and executed at Jamestown. His successor, Nakoto-Wance, signed a peace treaty, which ceded most of the Powhatan nation land to the English. The treaty also acknowledged that the Powhatan were only alive thanks to the generosity of the king.

Oh, my God. They were also now forced to pay annual tribute to the colonial governor. Did they send back dogs? Here's a nice little... Here's a stupid little dog. Here's a stupid dog we found. What was that thing you were telling me earlier? The doxen thing?

Oh my God. Oh, everyone. I was watching this video. It's a couple. And, you know, one guy's sitting there looking at his phone. And he's like... This Deschond is so cute. This mini Deshawn.

The real you sent me. A dachshund? Deschonda. I love this Deschonda you sent me. Her name is Deschanda. She's got a black belt in karate. My favorite was the dude's reaction when he realized how stupid he'd been. I recognized it myself immediately.

Oh, the times I've said something so stupid and you can't help but laugh. Oh, man, I would love it if your family pays. tribute to me with a Deschonda. You want a doxen so badly. I do. I've wanted a dachshund since I was a kid. And I keep being like, may I get you one? May I please?

No. And you, I mean, you do rightly point out that we have two dogs already and a cat already. We have two wonderful dogs. Uh-huh. And I always have a guilty conscious about getting like a, a, like purebred dog that you have to buy, you know. It's very hard to rescue a dachshund. They're very sought after dogs.

A Dachanda. Right, a Dachanda, my apologies. And I always just felt guilty about that because there's so many wonderful dogs out there that need a home. So we'll see what the future holds for this non-threatening boy. Well, I think your threatening wife is just going to have to get you one one these days. You know, there is a giant present under the tree right now. I don't think it's a Deschanda, but... It'd be pretty tragic because there are no air holes cut in that thing.

Oh, no. We may want to pause the recording to go poke some holes. Well, Kristen, from there, you know, everything I just told you, I think we have a general understanding of what happens. More and more people move to the new world. More colonies are established. And 100 years later, the colonies declare independence and defeat the British. And we have the United States of America. Pocahontas is arguably one of the most famous figures in Native American history.

And after hearing this series, you might think maybe one of the most misunderstood as well. For years, the English used her life story as propaganda, a marketing tool, to convince people to invest money and resources into their colonies. It was evidence that their culture was superior to indigenous people. Pocahontas helped the English because she wanted to. they were better than her own people. Hell, she even converted to Christianity. But we also have the opposite end of that spectrum, too, where people paint Pocahontas as a complete victim with no agency, no control. She's just a passive character in her own life.

That's not true either. Pocahontas was many things. She was a symbol of peace and trust, a survivor of extreme trauma, a glimmer of hope between two very different worlds. Without her, neither the Powhatan nation or the English colony would have lasted long. Luckily, our understanding of her life and of her people, the Powhatan, is changing for the better. We're making progress. Beginning in 2015, which is crazy late, in my opinion. The federal government has officially recognized seven Virginia tribes, all descendants from the Powhatan Nation.

This includes the Chickahominy, the Monachan, the Nansamond, the Pomonki, the Rappahannock, and the Upper Mataponi tribes. We have also memorialized Pocahontas in a variety of ways, embedding her into our collective memory. I've mentioned a few already, but here are some more. I'd like to start off, Kristen, with a World's Fair. Oh, God. Here on an old-timey podcast, we love World's Fairs in everything they offer. Okay. Where else can you grab an ice cold Dr. Pepper and then go to a human zoo?

Nowhere but a World's Fair, I always say. Well, in 1907, three years after the St. Louis World's Fair, there is a World's Fair in Norfolk, Virginia, celebrating the 300-year anniversary of the Jamestown settlement. And it was appropriately named the Jamestown Exposition. And at this World's Fair, they sold commemorative stamps. and one of them featured Pocahontas. Almost 8 million stamps were issued,

and you can buy one for yourself. You can buy a mint copy of this stamp for only like $175, which I think is a pretty good deal. I mean, yeah, it seems... For over a hundred-year-old stamp? Do you have a promo code, Norm? It seems like you're leading up to that.

Oh, man, I should have done that. Enter OTP at checkout. Yeah, go to vintage stamp, And then use code OTP for 5% off. That is really cool. Yeah. I was thinking of buying one, honestly. Well, hell yeah.

Next, we have the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. They have a mill pond on campus called Lake Matuaka, which was Pocahontas's birth name. The Norfolk and Western Railway had a passenger train for a long time called the Pocahontas. And it ran from 1926 to 1971. And then, of course, we have... The 1995 Disney film, Pocahontas. All right, look, I don't like this movie. I've upset many history hoes by declaring I do not like this movie.

It's not accurate at all. I think it perpetuates some bad stereotypes. It continues that stupid myth that Pocahontas and John Smith were in love. Yeah. Yes, it has a kick-ass soundtrack. Big fucking deal. So do most Disney films, okay? It ain't special.

Wow. But I will give the film credit. It did bring a lot of awareness to the Pocahontas story. Yeah. So kudos to Disney for that. But I'm sure many of you history hoes are like Normie C. You slam dunk debunked Pocahontas. What about the direct-to-video sequel, Pocahontas, too?

Literally, no one asked that. Actually, they did. Oh, God. These Disney adults. Maybe if you spent a little more time in Discord, you wouldn't know that. Okay, fine. And geez. Pocahontas 2, journey to a new world.

Hot take. I think this is better than the first movie. Well, that's not hard to do. The first movie sucked. Yeah, but usually sequels are never as good. Of course. This was a direct-to-video. The budget was way smaller.

The animation's not as good. Soundtrack's good. I don't think it's as good as the first movie. But the plot is just way better. Huh. And the themes are way better. It's not historically accurate at all. It's about when Pocahontas goes to England.

Okay. So, like, in this movie, John Rolf is an English diplomat. Oh. That the king sends to the new world to talk to Chief Powhatan. And then in the opening scene, Governor Ratcliffe and John Smith are, like, sword fighting on a roof. It's wild shit. Does one of them die? John Smith falls to his supposed death, but he comes back later in the movie.

He's like, Ratcliffe framed me. So Ratcliffe, like, convinces the king that... I'm bored already. My God, this sounds terrible. Okay, but I do have one film I want to recommend. It's the 2005 film The New World. And it's on Max, if you want to watch it. And it's about the founding of Jamestown and Pocahontas.

It's beautifully shot. Set designs are gorgeous. actually filmed where the Powhatan Nation was. Okay. So there's no giant mountains or waterfalls. Okay. It's swampy. It's flat.

Uh-huh. It's sunny. It's gorgeous. Realism is superb. It shows the struggles and the dynamics between the Powhatan and the English. There's even a scene where the Jamestown settlers are boiling their belts and chewing on them. Oh, wow. Yeah.

It's a very good movie. But it does still peddle that myth. that John Smith and Pocahontas were in love. And they make Pocahontas older than she should be. Yeah. But the woman that played Pocahontas did phenomenal job. But it goes through kind of Pocahontas' whole life. It's really good.

It is directed by Terrence Malick. And if you are familiar with his work, he is super artsy-fartsy. So just familiar. Just fair warning. Okay. Okay. But, man, now that you know this story, I think the history hose would really enjoy that movie.

Okay. Yeah. If you know the story, it's much more powerful. And finally, I want to recommend a book through my research process. I read a lot of books about Pocahontas, including the one that featured the native oral history. I read a very outdated book from the 60s. You were offended the whole time. I definitely read some sentences in there like, whoo. Yeah. If somebody wrote this today, mm, bad. They'd be sliced open by muscle shells. Excellent punishment for what they did. My favorite book by far, though, was Camilla Townsend's Pocahontas and the Powhatan Dilemma. It's superb, very informative, very good analysis.

It shreds through a lot of the bullshit. And so if you're going to read a book about Pocahontas, please make it that one. It's very, very good. Or you can just re-listen to this series from an old-timey podcast. And that, Kristen, is the story of Pocahontas. Norm, that was beautiful. Thank you very much. I really appreciate all the context.

I know I tease you about you and your context, but I think it was very, very necessary to tell the story well. Are you saying we need to print those context t-shirts? I think we might. We might need those context t-shirts. Okay. And then when I start going into context, I can wear it as an undershirt. Now, rip my clothes off, and then the context shirt will appear. and then people will know we are in context mode.

And they'll be turned on. That's just a bonus. And I'll be turning all of our listeners on. Huge plus. Just another day in the life of Norman Caruso. I can't believe she died at 20. Yeah, I know. Oh, something else I forgot to write down, but I'm going to mention it.

You want to talk about leaving a legacy? There is a genealogy project going on right now that is tracing descendants. of Pocahontas and Thomas Rolf, they have traced 100,000 people to her, including actor Edward Norton. Really? Pocahontas is like his times eight great-grandma. Wow! Yeah. That's incredible.

Maybe more than times eight. Well, sure, sure. Yeah. But no, that's funny. I was just about to ask about descendants of Pocahontas. Yeah. You want to talk about leaving a legacy. Woo.

Yeah. Damn. I can't really forgot to write that. down. I'm glad I remembered it. Me too. I'm brilliant. Oh, I wasn't going to say that, but I was going to say we've reached the part of our program where I read some reviews. Okay. Are you ready? Yes. I've prepared four reviews to read to do. Oh, a bonus review. Is it because it's Christmas time? I normally do three, but you know, it's Happy Honda Days, so I got to read four. It's the Nissan sales event, folks.

Oh, everyone forgets about that. Yep. Okay. This first one comes from Hannah May 1097. Five stars. Title of the review? Love Kristen and Normie C. Oh, and history.

Oh, let's not forget what the actual podcast is about. The body of the review reads, I absolutely adore these two. I love watching the videos of the episodes on Patreon because I love seeing their chemistry. Great plug. Not just as husband and wife, but as friends and co-hosts. And lovers.

All right. She doesn't mention that, but, you know, it's in there. You can feel it. They just really get each other's humor and bounce off each other so well. Aside from being obsessed with them, the content of the show is great. And I have to shamefully admit, I have learned a lot, and I have fun doing it. Shamefully. Shamefully, I love it.

Don't be ashamed of your knowledge, Hannah. No, we appreciate the shame. We want people to shamefully listen to this podcast. Speaking of shame, this isn't quite a mistakes of shame. But after our last episode came out where I absolutely roasted payday bars claiming they're not candy bars because they lack an outer shell, my good pal and friend of the show, Tim, texted me and said, hey, they make chocolate covered paydays now. And he sent me a link. So now I have to try. Chocolate covered payday.

Not quite mistakes of shame, but... Was it just a link to Tim's house, and he's in his basement putting chocolate on candy bars for you? That's a weird image you just gave me. But no, you can actually... I'm just saying I've never heard of these before. I think they're kind of new. So maybe we'll try some for a bonus video or something. I don't know.

Okay. Sounds delicious. You ready for another review? Yeah. This one comes from Gonzo 104. Like the Muppet? Perhaps. And you know what Gonzo gives us?

Five stars. Yes. Title of the review. Did I start on the wrong episode? Oh no. What is this going to say? The Body Reads. So my first experience with this podcast was the Pocahontas Part 1 episode, and I had mixed feelings going in.

Oh, no. That was a weird episode to start on. The nearly first 20 minutes was a depressing combination of death, the election, and a strange Doritos reference. My heartfelt condolences nonetheless. Thank you, Gonzo. Then they immediately started hating on a movie that I legitimately enjoy. Though I admit that Disney's Pocahontas is literally just a princess movie dressed in colonial clothes with no historical value, the songs slap.

You're not wrong, Gonzo. Then, then they finally got into the history part of this podcast and I was hooked. Thoroughly enjoyed it. A plus content, B minus opinions, 10 out of 10 would recommend. Gonzo, you certainly did start on a very special episode of an old-timey podcast. And Gonzo, thank you for that review. Thank you for sticking with us. Yeah, we appreciate the review. When I read the title of the review, I was afraid that the rest of the review was going to be like a Dorito to the Vaj.

But it wasn't. It wasn't. This podcast, you know, we are like an old horse. Takes us a while to get going, but we'll get you to where you need to go. That's right. And we'll only poop a little bit. Yep. Slowly but surely, we'll get to the point.

Don't worry. These next two reviews, frankly, I don't really understand them, but let's go. Okay? Huh, okay. This one comes from Chels Chels. She gives us five stars. Title is great. Starting off pretty normal.

The body of the review reads, Can I get a six-inch Italian BMT on wheat? Yes, American cheese. Yes, toasted please. Can I do tomatoes, pickles, spinach, banana peppers, and black olives? Oh, I see what happened. Oh, and ranch. No chips or drink.

Thank you. Okay, so we're not sure what happened here. I think I can tell you what happened. What do you think happened there? They confused their order at Subway with leaving a review for our podcast. So, unfortunately, the Subway guy is the one who got the actual review. I'm sure he was very confused as he made your sandwich. I'm sure it's going to happen again.

Chelschells, thank you very much. Chelschelles, we hope that sandwich turned out okay. I hear he put a non-threatening boy on that sub for you. Not sure how that tasted. Now we've got another one. Another kind of confusing one. This comes from Abby Goan. Five stars.

Title, In Line at Subway. Oh, here we go again. The body of the review reads, Absolutely adore this show. I'd write more, but the guy behind the counter is asking what I want on my stinky meatball sub. Oh, no. I told you it was going to happen.

We appreciate those concise reviews. We appreciate the folks who stick with us through our weird references. We appreciate it all. Thank you all. Thank you very much for those very entertaining reviews. I mean, it really does make a difference, us being a small, independent, sexy podcast, as norm likes to say, to get reviews and ratings and everything. So we really do appreciate anyone who's taken the time to do them.

Yes, absolutely. Oh, we do have kind of a fun announcement. Oh. Okay, so we're taking the weeks of Christmas and New Year's off. We had talked about taking the entire month of January off, just because that's what my old podcast used to do. But we've gotten really good momentum on this podcast now. We're feeling really good.

We're feeling really excited. and it just, like, we talked it over and it just feels kind of like it'd be bad timing to stop now for an extended break. So, I don't know if I'm going to do entirely fresh episodes for January. Some of them might seem a little familiar to those of you who are fans of my old show. But I think we're going to have a fun January. That's my prediction. Are you saying you're going to drop the remix version? I might.

I might on some of my favorite times. Or I might do all new. Who knows? Yeah. Folks, we basically, we've been trying to get the pilot light to come on. It finally came on, and now we're turning up the heat. Oh. And that's why we're recording in January.

I'm excited. I love recording this podcast. I do, too. I can't wait. It's finally your turn, Kristen, to tell a story. Wow. Okay. And on that note, you know what they say about history hose, Norm?

we always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from The Books, Pocahontas and the Powhatan dilemma by Camilla Townsend. Pocahontas by Grace Steele Woodward. The True Story of Pocahontas, the Other Side of History, by Dr. Linwood Little Bear Custolo and Angela L. Daniel Silver Star. Finally, Pocahontas's people, the Powhatan Indians of Virginia through four centuries,

by Helen C. Roundtree. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts, and while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and YouTube at Old-Timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, R-slash old-timey podcast.

And follow us individually on Instagram. She is the lovely Kristen Pitts-Karuso. I just posted a picture with our toilet. Oh, you sure did. I have not, but I go by Gaming Historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio. Bye!