An Old Timey Podcast - 38: The Kidnapping of Nell Donnelly (Part 1)

Episode Date: January 22, 2025

It was 6 p.m. on the evening of Wednesday, Dec. 16, 1931. Legendary fashion designer Nell Donnelly was headed home from work. Her chauffeur, George Blair, drove Nell’s lime green Lincoln through the streets of downtown Kansas City. When they arrived at her palatial home, George noticed a vehicle blocking the driveway. Two unfamiliar men stood on either side of it. George slammed on the brakes. In seconds, one of the men charged at him with a gun. Two more men came running. One jumped into the backseat with Nell. The gunman took charge of the vehicle. The other man jumped in on the passenger’s side, effectively trapping George. Nell screamed. She kicked. She fought. She thought for certain that someone would hear her. They didn’t. America’s best, most successful businesswoman, along with her chauffeur, had just been kidnapped.Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Nelly Gone: KCQ traces the kidnapping of Nell Donnelly,” by Kate Hill for the Kansas City Public LibraryThe book, “More than Petticoats: Remarkable Missouri Women,” by Elaine Warner The book, “James A. Reed: Legendary Lawyer; Marplot in the United States Senate,” by J. Michael Cronan“First A Lady,” by Jennifer Wilding for the Kansas City Star magazine“Nelly Don’s unexpected legacy,” for the Fashion Conservatory“Nell Donelly Reed,” Historic Missourians“Nelly Don’s zero-waste apron design,” run-sew-read“Nelly Don: Self made in America,” seamwork.comThe book, “The Snatch Racket,” by Carolyn CoxThe book, “The Devil’s Tickets,” by Gary M. PomerantzObituary for George Blair, Kansas City Star, June 10, 1977“Causes for hate,” The Kansas City American, Dec. 24, 1931“Mrs. Donnelly is found, safe,” The Kansas City Times, Dec. 18, 1931“Mrs. Donnelly’s chauffeur tells of the kidnappers’ treatment of them,” The Kansas City Star, Dec. 18, 1931Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Here ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And do you smell what Normie C is cooking? It's a big stinky tuna sub with extra onions and provolone cheese. God damn. And on this episode, I'll be talking about the kidnapping of America's best businesswoman. Part one.

Wow. Hey. Barbara. What? Barbara. Is it Barbara Crocring? No, Norm. I was just going to say Barbara on Shark Tank.

No. I am talking about the one, the only, Nell Donnelly. And if you haven't heard her name before, don't worry. I mean, it's a crime that you haven't, but we'll fix that real quick. Speaking of crime, Kristen, what's with this Heath Ledger T-shirt you're wearing? How do you think that makes me feel? Turned on? Everybody, I don't mean to make you jealous, but for Christmas, my mother got me a shirt.

She did have to custom make it. And it's Heath Ledger from a knight's tail. I had this image on a poster in my bedroom growing up just for scientific purposes. Yeah. And now I'm wearing it on my chesticles. Well, how do you think that makes me feel, Kristen? I mean, what if I was walking around with a t-shirt of Tiffany New York Pollard, huh? I mean.

And people ask me, yeah, I think she's the sexiest woman in the world. I couldn't disagree with you. I love Tiffany, New York Pollard. I would want a matching shirt. So there, your whole argument is dunzo bananas. Sorry, buddy. Heath Ledger is a good-looking guy, or was a good-looking guy, I guess I should say. Wow.

Sorry, this got dark. Yeah, thanks a lot, Norm. Do you have a Patreon plug? Good you. Yeah. Welcome to an old-time. podcast everybody where we take you back to the past. Kristen, you're not going to believe this.

What? I got us a really special guest today to open up the show. No, I did. Okay. I did because usually they're very, very busy. And I've been asking for the past four years for them to come on to the show. We've only been doing this podcast for like eight months. Well, the idea was I wanted them to be in the first episode.

We were supposed to launch this podcast four years ago. Okay. Specifically so this person could be on. All right. Yeah. You know, it's hard to get guests on when you're like, I haven't launched the show yet, but we'd love you to be on. They're really important, though. You know, they recently lost their job, so they found some time.

Are you talking about Joe Biden? Kristen, please welcome President Joe Biden. Hello. Oh, hey Joe. Hi, Joe. Oh, God, he sounds kind of sad. Well, yeah. Yeah. Hey, Joe, sorry about the election.

I know that it's probably rough having your own political party make you a drop out of the race. But, you know, to be fair, you probably shouldn't have run for re-election, you know. Come on, man. Okay, okay. Sorry. I feel like this interview's not going well. You've already offended him. Yeah. Source subject too soon.

Okay. I'm not going to bring it up again. And what am I doing here? Well, you're no longer the president. So you have some free time on your hands. And I feel like you're a big fan of history, Mr. President. I mean, you've lived through quite a bit of it. Like the Vietnam War, the Watergate scandal, the JFK assassination.

That was the time in the early late 60s, the early 60s and 60s. Yes, it was in the 60s, Mr. President. And, you know, I just think you would really enjoy joining our Patreon at Patreon. Instagram.com slash old-timey podcast. No, no, I probably best I don't. Well, here we out. Hang on. Don't deny it just yet because for just $5, you get monthly bonus episodes with full

video plus access to our Discord chat. And then for $7, you get all of that plus a signed thank you card, stickers, and access to our monthly trivia parties where you can win fabulous prizes. Why the hell would I take a test? Okay, it's not a test. It's trivia. It's trivia, Mr. President. It's a fun time. You got to give it a chance. But Mr. President, the real value is at the $10 pig butter investor tier because you get everything I just mentioned plus early ad free episodes with full video. The entire back catalog of Kristen's old decrepit rotting podcast. Let's go to court. Add free and 10% off all merch. All that for $10. What a bargain. What a deal, Mr. President. How much do you think that is worth? Somewhere between $700 billion and $1,300 million,000 billion.

Wow, thank you very much. No, this is just sad. I'm glad you think so highly of our Patreon. So if you want to join, please visit patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Well, anyway, thank you, President Biden for joining us. Is there anything you'd like the people to know before you go? I promise you, the president has a big stick. Whoa.

Well, you heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen. President Joe Biden's got a big dripping hog. Honestly, have you seen pictures of him when he was young? Hot. He's still on the line, Kristen. Jesus Christ. Ladies and gentlemen, President Joe Biden, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you, Joe Biden.

Hello. I think he meant goodbye there. Norm, we've already gotten reviews saying that we're like leftist, terrible people. Oh, yeah? And now we've had Joe Biden on the show. We're going to have to bring Trump on just to keep things fair and balanced like Fox News. Yeah. Yeah.

Have we really gotten reviews that say we're leftist? Yes. What did it say? I don't know. Leftist trash. Yeah, basically. Well, that's okay. They don't know.

who we are really. Well, yeah, they do. They called us leftist. They're on to us. Yeah, well, maybe they don't know what I was doing on January 6th, 2021. Oh, did you take a shit in Nancy Pelosi's desk? Was that you, Norm? Try to. I knew it. I knew it. I'm just kidding. Anyway, Kristen, story time. Take it away, Kristen. Actually, you're going to be very disappointed because guess what? First, I have to tell you to suck it, Okay. What? We got an email from someone named Kristen.

It's not me posing as someone else. This is a different Kristen. Oh, yeah. Prove it. I can't. Okay. Well, so we'll take all this with a grain of salt. I'm going to read you part of this email, Norm.

And be prepared to eat crow. Okay. Or whatever crumbly bits are on your sweater that I think are chocolate and are, in fact, not chocolate. Everybody, just moments ago, we were eating some chocolate turtles. I swear we'll get to the episode in a minute, but for now you need to know, we were eating chocolate turtles. I saw that Norm had some chocolate on his sweater that had fallen because he was eating it like a big slop, I guess. So I took the pieces of chocolate and tossed him into his mouth. Turns out.

One of them wasn't chocolate. We have no idea what it was. It had a cotton texture. I'm not sure what it was exactly, but I spit it out. Anyway, back to this email, this very real email, it's about my pronunciation of the word Louvre. Okay. It says, I'm a French teacher and Kristen, you are not incorrect in your pronunciation. The RE at the end of the word is not the emphatic syllable, but it sure as hell is there.

In fact, if you are from the south of France, which is what I, I considered myself to be. You'd be hitting the R.E. A bit harder. Louvre Ra? Louvre Ra! Well, that sounded unintentionally dirty. Dot, dot, dot.

And La Salon Carre? Just a big-ass square room. Literally, the name is nothing fancier than that. All right. Thank you, Kristen. Thank you for... And are you sure this is an email you sent yourself. I'm 90% positive.

We've got our best folks working on this tracking down the truth. Okay. Well, I mean, I've always heard it pronounced the Louvre in America, but, you know, the French add the RE, then okay, great. You know, since I did it both ways, it did remind me of what I would do on tests growing up where I would, like, choose one way to do something, and then I'd lose confidence halfway through and just switch to the other, which is a guaranteed way to get an F. Cover all your bases, you know. Uh-huh, but when it's graded, it doesn't really work out that well. Oh, okay. Well, thank you for. for that lovely email. Thank you for correcting us,

making us feel like big, stupid Americans. No, I felt very vindicated, validated, and what's another, vejazzled? You felt vejazzled by the email. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, where did these rhinestones come from?

Just popped up as you read the email. Okay, now, Norm, there's not enough time to talk about vejazzling. So if you don't mind, I'm going to get back to the topic at hand. You're the one that brought up jazling. I don't know why you're telling me. We're going to have to roll the tape on that. Okay, here we go. Are you excited?

I don't know what this story is about, so... You do too. Okay. I thought it was about Barbara Corcoran. Is it Corcoran? This is part one of a two-part tale on the kidnapping of America's best businesswoman. In this episode, we'll learn about the trailblazing fashion designer Nell Donnelly. How she got her start?

how she changed the industry, how she led the way for creating safe and ethical working conditions, and how in the Great Depression, Nell's outstanding success put a target on her very stylish back. Here we go. It's a local story, right? It sure is. Yeah, we're kind of going back to that same time period from two episodes ago. It's the 1930s in Kansas City. The mafia's in full swing.

Yeah, which you said was the dorkiest way to talk about the mafia, and I wish I could disagree. Come on, boys. Those mafia fellas, they're out there. They're giving everybody the business. They're in full swing. Let's take this fella and bury them in concrete. It was about 6 p.m.

On the evening of Wednesday, December 16th. 1931, and legendary fashion designer Nell Donnelly was headed home from work. Where'd she work? The Donnelly Garment Company, sir. Okay. Her chauffeur, a man named George Blair, drove Nell's 1928 lime green Lincoln convertible through the streets of downtown Kansas City. Ooh, lime green.

That's a color. That's like an old-timey color that was very in. I, you know, it's shocking because for some reason I don't think of those like really bright eye-catching colors as being big back then, but they absolutely were. Yeah, imagine if they saw a lime green Kia soul back then. They'd be going crazy. They'd be dazzled. Yeah. Nell needed to get home that evening. She and her husband, Paul, had recently adopted a baby boy. They'd named David. David was just three months old. Don't you think that the name David doesn't really fit a baby? Baby David, doesn't that seem ridiculous?

Why? I don't know. It seems like a more mature name. It doesn't quite fit a child. So an adult named David is fine, but as a baby, you just can't have a baby David. If we don't know if you're going to shit your pants or not, you can't be named David. What if it was like the boss baby? Then a very mature baby.

Then I'll make an exception, obviously. What about a baby named Dave? No, that's stupid. No, that's just stupid. Davey, maybe. Davey? Yeah. Okay.

You just need to make it sound silly. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. So do you want to refer to the baby as Davey? No, I'm going to stick to his actual name. Okay. Out of respect. David was just three months old, and although they'd hired a nurse to take care of the baby during the day,

Nell took care of him when she got home from work. Luckily, it wasn't a far drive from Nell's state-of-the-art garment factory to her palatial home, located at 5235 Oak Street, Kansas City, Missouri. I know Oak Street. It is now the home of the National Toy and Miniature Museum. So I think that tells you a thing or two about how big and nice this place was. Oh, man. What a sick house.

Describe it. Some. Well, there's a door. You got your windows. There's a door. It's got a, you know, I bet back in the day this had a circle driveway. It's got, well, it's hard because it's got signage for the toy and miniature museum. Okay, boy.

It's got a Spanish clay tile roof. It's a white stucco, kind of prairie style. Yeah. Got like a column porch. And. Yeah, you've redeemed yourself. You're good. Thank you.

Thank you very much. It has a kick-ass parking lot. Nell Donnelly could have fit about 100 lime green. It's like she was running a damn museum out there. Yeah. It's funny. That drive home had been completely uneventful. But when they arrived at the driveway of the Donnelly home,

George noticed that their entrance was blocked, blocked by an unfamiliar vehicle. So George slammed on the brakes and watched as two unfamiliar men. stood on either side of the unfamiliar vehicle. The men appeared to be examining it, as if maybe they were trying to figure out why they had car trouble. Later, George wouldn't remember

whether the men had the hood up, but he'd definitely remember the theater of it all, the acting as if they had car trouble. But in that moment, George saw no reason to be skeptical of the men. So he lowered his window to ask them to just move the vehicle, and as soon as he did, one of the men walked toward him. He mumbled something, something that George couldn't quite make out. But that didn't matter because within seconds, the man flashed a gun. He aimed it at George. Norm, this is just a finger gun I've got up. You don't

have to look alarmed. Well, at this point is George like, oh, this isn't some improv comedy bit become a part of, right? This isn't a flash mob. It's so weird. That's exactly what he thought. Yeah. So a guy's pointing a gun at him. The man flung the driver's side door open and forced himself inside. He jammed the revolver into George's ribs. Within seconds, two other men descended on the vehicle.

One jumped into the passenger seat, sandwiching himself between George and the gunman. The third man jumped into the backseat with Nell. Nell screamed. She screamed again. What the hell was happening? She lived in a nice neighborhood. They were on a fairly busy road.

She thought for certain that someone would hear her. Yeah, you would think Oak Street is a busy street. Well, and I don't know, you know, it's hard to know where the driveway was at that time because that area has changed quite a bit. And obviously they've made a museum out of it. Yeah. But for those who don't know, she actually doesn't have a giant parking lot. Sorry to disappoint you all. In front of her house.

Now, okay, I just want to make sure I'm looking at the right house. Mm-hmm. Did I describe it correctly? Yeah, you did. That was her house? Yeah. Because there's another house right here, too. Uh-huh.

I don't know if this is her house. Can you describe that one to me? Stone Foundation. It's got kind of an English cottage-style trim work with leaded, diamond glass. Yeah, really beautiful. Yeah. That's someone else's house and that's going to come up later.

So just calm down. Oh, shit. Okay. So like I said, she lived on a fairly busy road. She thought for sure someone would hear her. Yeah. But no one seemed to. That's got to be frustrating.

George didn't look into the back seat. He couldn't. Not with a gun jammed into his ribcage and a captor on either side of him. Instead, he listened. After Nell's second scream, he heard what sounded like a slap. George had to know that he wasn't the target of this attack, but he also had to know that his class and his race might make him more expendable to these armed, agitated men.

Oh, so George was black? Yeah. Oh. The three men, whoever they were, were upset. They cursed as they drove. At one point, one of them said to Nell, you will not get hurt if you keep still and follow instructions. But Nell didn't keep still.

She fought. She kicked one of the car doors open, and when one of her captors tried to shut it, she held it open with her foot. The man in the backseat tried to control her, but if he thought that was going to be easy, he thought wrong. So she was feisty.

She was kick in and screaming. I wonder if she realized, like, right away, oh, they're after me. And, like, they're not going to do anything to me because, like, they're going to hold me for ransom or whatever. So do you think she felt emboldened and be like, yeah, I'm just going to, like, kick and scream? Or do you think in that moment you don't know yet what's going on and you're just panicking? That is such an interesting question. And I have asked myself that so many times because. Because she knew she was a big deal, right?

Everyone did. And we're going to get to that. And we're going to get to the fact that this is the Great Depression. It's kind of... Say that word again? Depression. There we go. It's not as sad when I say it that way.

We can all agree. Yeah. So these types of crimes were on the rise. And yeah, I do think she knew, but I also think that this is just who she was. So let me talk more about that. Okay. She was in her early 40s, really tough, not just physically, but emotionally tough, mentally tough. She'd been born the 12th of 13 children.

Dear God. Yes, to Irish immigrants in the comically small town of Parsons, Kansas. She'd grown up with next to nothing. But now, now in 1931, she was one of America. best, most successful business women. The Donnelly Garment Company, which she'd started out of her attic back in 1916, now had more than a thousand employees. A thousand?

Yes. That's a ton. It made more than $3 million in profit every year. Inflation? $62 million in profit every year adjusted for inflation. Good. Her understanding of fashion, an understanding of the market, and her ability to innovate had made her a rare Depression-era success story. But it had also made her a target. As Nell thought her captors, she wondered if she might be able to jump out of the moving vehicle. It wasn't going that fast. But she wondered if jumping would result in her death. It's a fair question. Yeah, so she was on Huntington Road, as this thought. was occurring to her.

And it was a busy one at 6 p.m. So she wondered, what are the chances that I jump out of my own vehicle and get hit by another one? During 6 p.m. Rush hour? Yeah. Maybe. I saw a video the other day of the winter storm and there was a car sliding on ice and

the guy just like bailed on his car because it was like going off the exit ramp like hill. And I was like, ooh, that's scary. Yeah. Soon, the men pushed George down into the floorboard. They gagged him. They tied his hands behind his back. They blindfolded him. In the back seat, the man wrestled a sack over Nell's head.

He shoved her to the floorboard. And the gunman drove and drove. George tried to keep track of their route. It seemed like they were going west. I would be terrible at this, by the way. Yeah, you in direction. We can drive somewhere like multiple times. Uh-huh.

Like once a week. Yep. And Kristen will still be like, um, can you, can you tell me how to get, get home? Help. And I have to like, yeah, go this way, turn this way. Just putting it out there for any would-be kidnappers. You don't have to put a sack over my head. I've got no idea where I'm going.

No, you really wouldn't. Kristen would think, you know, if you drove five miles, she'd be in like Illinois or something. Oh, right. Where I can't believe you drove me to another state. At some point in the scuffle, Nell took a surreptitious glance at her watch. It was a little after 6 p.m. Syruptitious? That's a word.

So is furgelicious. It sounds sweet. Seruptitious. But let me tell you something, Norman. There's nothing sweet about being kidnapped. Wow. Wow. That's the lesson I'm learning right now. A while later, the gunmen stopped the car. Nell snuck another peek at her watch. 615. The men moved George, whom they'd blindfolded, and Nell with the sack over her head, into the backseat of another vehicle.

They didn't know where they were or what type of car they'd just gotten into, but as the car took off, they tried to collect information. The floorboard was dirty. Nell noticed that this vehicle didn't seem as high-powered as her own. One old-timey newspaper even said, so she figured it had to be a Dodge. And I think they named another one. I was like, oh, damn. Wow, talking shit on the Dodge Car Company.

This time, the ride wasn't short. Sometimes it felt like they were on a smooth road. Other times, it got really bumpy. Were they going out into the country? The captors drove for about an hour. When the vehicle came to a stop, the men let George and Nell out and led them to what seemed like a cottage. Well, if they thought they were heading west, then they drove an hour. Kansas?

He thought that for the first drive. Okay. But yeah, I mean, sure. It was hard, but not impossible, to get a sense of their surroundings. sources have described that cottage as, and I am not making this up, nasty and dingy? And to quote Nell Donnelly, the place was filthy. So it was a stinky, nasty little cottage.

God knows where. My real estate agent sucks describing my house like this. Come take a look at this nasty, filthy, disgusting cottage. Honestly. Make this house. a home. That sounds like a challenge, and I'm ready for it. Religious pictures of chubby little cherubs adorn the walls.

That's like what Cupid is, right? Yeah, that's like... Cupid's a cherub. The plump, kind of juicy-looking little angel babies. I hate them. Yeah, the little sexy angels. I know that's weird to say I hate those juicy little babies. You know they're not real, right?

Yeah, but you know what? And that's what makes them worse to me. They're not real. So why did we make them up? And why are they framed and put in so many people's bathrooms? My mom has cherubs framed in her bathroom. They freak me out every time I see them. Yeah, she has them in multiple bathrooms actually at her house.

Yeah. Chirubs were, I guess, were big in the 90s maybe. Yeah. The only thing I get into the gov. Or maybe your mom just likes chubby little babies. Hey, I was a chubby little baby. You sure were. There was nothing little about you.

Yeah, I was 10 pounds when I was born. could have slap some angel wings on me and I could have cosplayed as a little chair baby. Give this boy a harp. The men led Nell and George down to a cellar. The stench was terrible. They bound George's hands and feet. They ordered Nell to lie down on a cot. They treated Nell better than they treated George.

They kept George blindfolded. But they told Nell that they wouldn't blindfold her on the condition that she agree not to look at them. What? Don't look at me. Just don't look at. Come on. What?

What? What do you mean? What? Why not just keep her blindfolded? Why are you even giving her the option? Okay. So I do think part of it was, oh, do I want to save this? But if I do save it, will I forget to say it?

Who knows? No, there was a lot of, and I know that. Nell said this to them a lot. I can't believe you kidnapped a woman. I can't believe you kidnapped a woman. And so I think there was, you know, she's kind of trying to shame them a little bit. Why are you looking at me like that? Was that uncommon to kidnap a woman?

So in Kansas City, on this particular year, a source that I read said that six people had been previously kidnapped. Obviously not as high profile, but they were all men. Uh-huh. And I guess, you know, if there's honor amongst thieves or whatever, yeah, the thought was, you kidnap a man and you get his money. Yeah, but she's a successful businesswoman. What about her husband? Well, what's he do? He also works for the Donnelly Garment Company. Yeah, but that's her business. But it's their money. Oh, so you're saying, kidnap the husband and then call up Nell Donnelly and be like,

You've got your hubby. Well, it's kind of like, you know, kidnapping a child. You know, the child doesn't have tons of money from their lemonade stand. You're going for the parents' money. Well, I mean, maybe they thought it'd be easier to kidnap a woman. Maybe.

You'll find out why, well, just stay tuned is all I'm going to say. Okay. I mean, I'll be here. I really have no choice, unfortunately. So they told her not to look at them, which you say is ridiculous. That's stupid. Just keep her blind.

We'll tell you. Just don't look at me, okay? I'll just say this. I do think there is wisdom in a situation like this where you do not plan to kill anybody. That's absolutely not the plan. You're doing this for money and money alone. You don't want to hurt anybody. Yeah.

But let's say you get caught. What you definitely want is for America's most successful businesswoman. when she testifies against you at trial to say, well, you know, they kidnapped me and it was horrible, and they kept me in the filthy, dingy cottage with those cherubs, which we can all agree are disgusting and weird. But they didn't treat me badly. I just think if you're getting into kidnapping, you got to go all in, baby. Don't half-ass it. Okay.

No half-measures, you know. Here's a compromise. Well, take the blindfolds off. But then we're going to wear fun masks, so you can't see what we look like. Here was their actual compromise, Norm. Okay. They kept the lights off. Well, that's even more annoying.

What if these guys are tripping and stumbling around? I can't see they're in a dingy basement with cherub paintings. Well, no, the cherub paintings were up for upstairs. Oh, they're upstairs. I mean, no one decorates a cellar, Norm. Don't be ridiculous. But yeah, they had flashlights, mostly had the lights off. So.

This is ridiculous. They're just making it harder on themselves. No, they're not. Who knows? Honestly, a dingy, nasty, filthy cabin in 1931, there's a chance it didn't have electricity. Kristen, I have kidnapped 13 people. I'm telling you right now, this is ridiculous the way they're handling. If that were true and you had not been caught, then I would say, you know what, Norm, tell me all about it.

Because clearly you know something that the other kidnappers don't. They're calling him the world. sexiest kidnapper. Oh, okay. Hey, don't say it like that. You doubt it. You're married to me. Although you are wearing a Heath Ledger t-shirt right now.

Yeah, where does my loyalty lie? I'll never tell. So anyhow, as I was trying to tell you, she was not blindfolded. They said, don't look at us. And that was not a hard promise to keep. The cottage was dark. Her captors kept the lights off.

I already said all this. Yes. Still, Nell was able to sneak a few glances at the men who had abducted her. See? Why the fuck would you even risk it? Don't look at us, okay? Come on. These guys are amateurs.

Amateur Hour. Wait, I want to find out. I can't wait to find out who these chuckle fucks are. Okay, that is interesting. So you think that it's amateur hour here. Uh, yeah. Okay. She thought the men looked Italian, maybe. And though it was hard to get a lay of the land, she listened to their voices and she was certain that she heard more than three voices. Whatever was happening was much bigger than it had initially seemed. Not long after they arrived in the dingy cottage, the men told Nell that this was a kidnapping. Duh. Just so you know, we've kidnapped you.

They wanted $75,000. Adjusted for inflation? It's a little over $1.5 million. Doesn't seem like that much for Nell Donnelly. I agree. Couldn't she be like, okay, well, let me grab my checkbook out of the car. Yeah, I've got 75 grand under my seat cushions in the Lincoln. Boy, you shouldn't have left that back wherever you left it.

Nell balked. She told the men that she didn't have that kind of money. $75,000. She didn't have that kind of money. Oh, okay. Yeah, they knew she was lying. Yeah. In fact, just about anybody in 1931 would have known that she was lying.

Nell Donnelly was an undeniable success. In fact, a big part of her success, was the way she marketed her own success story. Countless publications had written about her. Her life story had been celebrated, and the story of her business had been celebrated. People loved reading about this rare thing, a woman who started a business with the help and guidance of her adoring husband. Oh.

Kind of like our success story, Kristen. It's exactly like it in every single way. Now, how do you think we got Joe Biden on this podcast? Exactly. It's because we're married and we're in business together. That's all it takes. She and Paul worked together. They loved one another.

They ran a successful business together. It was a great story and a lot of it was true. A lot. Well, was not true. Yeah. Parts of it, parts that would prove critical in this kidnapping, were not true at all. So let's talk about who Nell Donnelly was and what brought her to that moment. Ooh, doing a little backstory, huh?

Backstory, here we go, back in time. Okay, I already mentioned she was born in 1889 in a small town to a large family. Parsons, Kansas. That's right, baby. 12th child of 13. Oh, Irish immigrants. What does he not remember? As a girl, Nell got sick of wearing the tire.

old hand-me-downs that came from her five older sisters. She wanted to look good, baby. So over time, she became pretty skilled at taking apart those faded, shapeless dresses and creating something newish and definitely better and more stylish for herself. So she made her own clothes? Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.

After she graduated from high school at just 16, Nell set off on her own. Nerd. All right. She got a job as a stenographer in Kansas City. She lived in a boarding house. Stenographer? Yeah. That's the person that, like, writes down stuff in courts.

Well, I don't know that she was in court, but I think these positions were a lot more common back then. You know, a man would sit around smoking a cigarette and saying, Take a letter. Take this down. The mafia's in full swing. Yeah, that's not as cool as a switchboard operator. Oh, we are in complete agreement on that. But you know what, Nell, you got to start somewhere.

Before long, she met a guy named Paul Donnelly. Paul lived in a nearby boarding house. Oh. He had a good job. I don't know why I have moaned about that. I thought you're going to describe how sexy he was. I just premature moaned. He worked for the Barton Shoe Company as the credit manager.

Wow. What a hot job. I mean, I bet it seems pretty darn impressive. Nell and Paul got along well enough. And so when Nell was 17 and he was 23, they got married. How do you feel about that, Kristen? You know, I am famously anti-age gaps. And I think 17 and 23, that's a big gap.

But I also think you have to kind of adjust for old-timey inflation, you know. I see. So I'm not too weirded out by this. Okay. So inflation-wise, what would that relationship look like today? Well, I would say in today's years, 17 and 23, it would feel a lot closer. It'd be more like 20 and 23, I think. Okay.

She did graduate high school early, so she was very smart. And she's living on her own. Living on her own, very mature for her age, yeah. Synographer. Respected? Mm-hmm. In interviews, Nell always tried to paint their marriage as mostly traditional, probably in an attempt to make her eventual status as a high-powered executive more palatable.

But it's undeniable that when they first got married, Paul was ahead of his time. They were visiting his family out near St. Louis, Missouri, which, for those of you who aren't blessed to live in the great state of Missouri, we'll just tell you now. It's a four-hour drive. It's the opposite side of the state from Kansas City. Yeah, don't ask Kristen's opinion of St. Louis. Oh, shit, I, I, you know, I'm so bitchy. Sometimes I forget when I've been bitchy. That's just a constant. My first thought, when you said that was like, they don't know what I think about St. Louis.

Oh, yes, they do, Kristen. Yes, they do. So while they were out there in that wonderful city where I think you can spend three whole days, you know. Three days maximum, according to Kristen. Enjoy yourself. Nell confided to Paul that she'd always wanted to go to college. She framed that dream the way a lot of women did in the early 1900s, as in, yeah, I really wanted to go to college, but I got married instead.

But according to Nell, Paul insisted that the fact that they were married didn't mean that she couldn't go to college. And he helped financially support her decision to attend Lindenwood College in St. Charles, Missouri. Right outside of St. Louis. Very good, Norman. Thank you. So, in 1907, Nell went away to that all-women's college for two years, and Paul stayed in Kansas City while Nell attended college on the opposite end of the state. You're talking like that's weird.

I do think that's weird. Why? Can you imagine being freshly married? As if it goes bad. Ooh, it's marriage. I guess newly married is how a normal person would say it. Yeah, on the back of their car, you know, you write a message and they wrote freshly married. Yeah, you're newly married and you live four hours apart.

You think he can just get up and walk away from his credit manager job at the shoe company? No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying I'm kind of surprised she didn't get into college a little closer to Kansas City, Although maybe the thought was you'll be close to your in-laws, so that's good. Maybe she wanted to attend that college. Well, she definitely did. Yeah. I'm just saying.

There's a woodworking school in St. Charles that I've been looking at. Oh, so this is all, you're like, no, it's not weird for a married couple to live apart. Here, watch me. Watch me as I go. Oh, Kristen, look at this brochure I found. Oh, it just fell out of the sky. Yeah. Nell was the only married student.

at her college. That's how bizarre it was for a woman who is married. All women her age, I'm guessing. Yeah. Yeah. And she's, yeah, okay. By all accounts, Nell seemed to love college. And when she graduated, she was supposed to settle into normal life. But Nell wasn't exactly normal. And neither was Paul. Both of them had an entrepreneurial streak. And when she was back in Kansas City, she found herself dealing with an old problem, one that had bugged her for years. Clothing! Nell didn't like her options! The truth was, hardly any women in the early 1900s liked their options when it came to daywear. Yes, if you had a ton of money, sure, you could pay to have beautiful dresses, custom fitted to your body. You'd look great. But if you didn't have tons of money,

and you were just an average housewife, your options sucked. And they'd sucked for quite a while. For years, clothing manufacturers made these big, shapeless mother Hubbard type dresses. Mother Hubbard. Yes, do you know what I mean by that? No. Okay.

A fashion blog I was reading for this used that term. I knew exactly what it meant. Do you remember old Mother Hubbard who lived in the shoe? So she's got like that big kind of like you almost think of it like a nightgown like it's ankle length, um, full sleeve. Should I just Google Mother Hubbard? Yes, that would also do the trick. Okay. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, she just looks awful. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Do you want to describe what you're seeing? It's just like frumpy. Yes. Extraordinarily frumpy.

Like big, bad. Not fitted. Like not flattering in any way. Right. One size fits all. God, really. The logic was, if you're just at home cleaning or taking care of kids, who cares what you look like? But Nell thought differently.

She was like, I don't care if I'm home alone. I want to look good. So she started making her own dresses. They were so different from the typical house dress. but still imminently practical. Nell's dresses were fitted to her form, but not skin tight. They were pretty. She had an eye for fabric and patterns and little details.

Her dresses were long enough to cover the knees. She made the sleeves short enough to allow for good movement. And of course, she gave her dresses pockets. Ooh! Why don't all women's clothes have pockets? It's a crime. I hate it. Suck everything.

That's me talking to me. Do women's clothes not have pockets? Norm, have you not noticed that any time I have a dress that has pockets, I pointed out, I'm like, look, this has pockets. I guess I've never noticed that. So specifically dresses don't have pockets. Yeah, but weirdly, sometimes women's pants, like, they'll make a fake-looking pocket. They'll make something that looks like a pocket. You go to shove your fingers in it and you can't get them in there because it's fake.

It's been sewn shut. That's just cruel. I agree. It's fucked up. Thank you, Norm. What about those pants that look like jeans, but they're not, juggings? Uh-huh. Did those have pockets?

I very much doubt it. I wonder if those had fake pockets too. Like drawn on pockets. You know what? I'm going to call it. I guarantee you, juggings had fake pockets. Did jaggings? And they fooled no one.

Did jaggings have pockets? Some jaggings have front fastening facilities. Okay, what the fuck is that? While others just have an elastic waistband and no pocket. What is a front facing facility? I don't know what that means. Should we call the police? Front.

Leggings are made to look like skin tight denim jeans. It's a portmanteau of the word jeans. and leggings. Yes, thank you. Juggings were brought on in the 1930s by Nell Donnelly. Shut up. Norman. Wow.

Why didn't you mention that? Yeah, I should have. Are you going to get to that? Yeah, yeah, that's coming. Don't worry. Yeah, so I guess some juggings do not have pockets. That's fucked up. I'd be so mad if I had a drawn-on pocket.

Yeah. Yeah, I love pockets. You know, I love my pocket teas. Like, I just a basic-ass t-shirt with a little pocket right here. Yeah. Yeah. Put all sorts of stuff in there. limit 12 pencils.

I've never tested it, to be honest. I've actually never really put anything in those pockets. I just like having the option. Sure, sure. That's freedom. Yeah. So Nell started making these dresses, not just for herself, but for her sisters and then her friends.

And people loved them because there was nothing like them on the market. Her friends encouraged her to start selling the dresses. Hell yeah. And even though Nell was a young woman and a young woman, it was 1916, she decided to give it a try. She went around to a bunch of Kansas City Department stores and tried like hell to convince them to sell her dresses. And they rejected her. Those hidey, what? Did they really? Why? If I had to guess, you know, I think there are probably a lot of reasons why she was rejected. One of them could be as

simple as, if this is such a great idea, someone would have thought of it by now. Well, that's a stupid reason. I think that's the logic people use a lot when there's something new and they don't want to take a chance on it. Because those old mother Hubbard dresses, they had been what women wore in the home for decades. And here's this young whippersnapper coming in with her frilly little frocks. And you're thinking, I don't know that other women really want this. That's my impression of someone who owns a store in 1916. I just I hate that reason because you could basically reject literally any new idea.

Absolutely. Yeah, this is stupid because it would have been invented by now. Okay, department store owners. Well, hang on. Yeah. One of what they did when they saw a fucking light bulb. This is stupid. This would have already been invented by now.

Is there like have a shitload of candles lit and stuff? Ridiculous. Anyway. So another reason, and this might set a little better for you, those traditional dresses that were already in stores, they sold for like 67 cents a piece. Inflation? About 20 bucks. How much did Nell Donnelly want for her dresses? A dollar apiece.

Ooh. Adjusted for inflation, that's about $29. But she's hand-making these, right? That's a lot of labor. Well, I mean, people were hand-making those other ones. Yeah, but they were in like a factory, probably like assembly line, right? It wasn't just like some little old lady in the back of the department store on a sewing machine. Well, it was probably a little old lady in a terrible factory condition sewing.

Okay. Fair. The point more is like hers were higher quality and they were pretty. So she got told no a lot. But Nell didn't give up easily, and her persistence paid off when she talked to the buyer at Gregory B. Peck Dry Goods Company. Gregory Peck. Gregory Peck. Gregory Peck. His name was Gregory Peck.

I'm afraid so, darling. Wow. Would you like to know the location of the store? Yeah. 1044 Main Street, Kansas City, Missouri. Okay. Oh. Okay.

So that is, that building is. still standing. Yeah. According to Google Street View, office space available. Looks like no one's renting it, but it's a beautiful building. It is a gorgeous building. Yep. Very, um, our deco.

So the buyer was interested. They ordered 18 dozen dresses on consignment. Hmm. So that's a big risk. That's, yeah, we'll make some space for them. But if they don't sell as on. Yeah, that takes all the risk away from Gregory Peck. He's an up-and-coming actor. Sure. He doesn't have time to be in the store all day long in Kansas City. Yeah.

So Nell was thrilled and, you know, possibly terrified. Who knows? As soon as she got that yes, she ran back to Paul and told him the news. And Paul wasn't intimidated. He'd always wanted to start a business. And while this one wouldn't be strictly his, he admired his wife's intellect. He trusted her instincts. So he paid $1,270 for sewing machines and materials, adjusted for inflation. That's about $36,000. Damn. Yeah. Well, when you're the credit manager at a shoe company, I guess you can do stuff like that. I have been curious if maybe Paul came from a bit of money. that just seems like a lot of money to have in savings when you're in your early 20s. Yeah.

It's really easy to start a business when you have a bunch of money. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like Donald Trump's infamous, my father gave me a small loan of a million dollars. Sure, sure. Yeah. So Paul made that investment and Nell hired two friends to be seamstresses. The three of them worked out of the Donnellie.

attic for two months straight. And in the end, they had 216 perfect pink gingham dresses with Empire Waste and ruffles on the trim. They took the dresses to the George B. Peck Dry Goods Company. Wait, I thought it was Gregory Peck. Did I say Gregory? Yeah, you said Gregory originally. Hold on. Hold on. No, I said George the whole time. You said Gregory. Joe? Joe, roll the tape. I swear she said Gregory. Joseph, I swear.

Gregory B. Peck Dry Goods Company. Sounds like you're hearing what you want to hear. Is it George Peck? Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Dry goods store. Dry your eyes, Norm.

It's George Peck. What a way they call it a dry good store? No wet goods. allowed? Not a single wet good, not even a damp good. No wetness allowed in the dry only. They took the dresses to the aforementioned company.

And even though Nell's dresses were more expensive than those other house dresses, they were so much better and so much prettier that it turned out women were happy to pay the higher price. The first run of 216

dresses sold out within days. Days. Some sources said they sold out within hours. Bottom line, they sold fast. Nell and Paul didn't even have time to be thrilled. They had to get to work because now they knew they had something special. So they opened a factory at the corner of 29th Street and Brooklyn Avenue. Don't bother looking it up.

You'll just be disappointed. It's gone. It's gone, baby. And that factory was really small. And the demand for Nell's dresses was huge. So pretty quickly after that, they bought a much bigger factory. In fact, it was so big that it took up an entire city block. It was located at 1828 Walnut Street, Inza City, Missouri.

Missouri. Ooh, cool building. Yeah. They had the whole building? Hell yeah, they did. Damn. Well, I told you she's going to get to the point where she's got more than a thousand employees. Let me look around here.

That's impressive. I love those old factory windows. They are so cool looking. Yeah. So they were in the big leagues, or getting there anyway. And then, Norman, guess what happened? World War I. Yep.

Norm's favorite topic. Coming to you soon against your will, a 77 part series on The Great War. Wow. Last episode, I said it was a 35 part series. It's been expanded to 77 parts. I know how we roll. We always say, oh, this is just going to be just a quick little nothing. Don't worry about it.

And then, you know, all of a sudden, we're telling seven episodes of Lucile Ball's life. We are notorious for that. As an example. Yeah. So actually, it'll probably be 184 parts. Yeah. In 1917, Paul had to go off to war. And he was away for two years. But in his absence, the Donnelly garment company flourished. When Paul came back from war, the company was making $250,000 a year in sales. Ooh. Adjusted for inflation, that's about $4.5 million. It's doing well.

No kidding. Yeah. And this is all with him being gone. Yes, it's just Nell running this. Damn. Nice. With Paul back in the United States, he became president of the company. Whoa, wait, why does he get to be president? What about Nell? Why do you think, Norm?

Because he has a penis. And Nell became Secretary Treasurer. That's bullshit. Yeah, I mean, everyone kind of thought it was bullshit. It was widely known that, yeah, Paul did the financials. Nell did literally everything else. She designed the clothes, studied the market, hired and fired, she did everything. And people loved her for it. I will say, I know this is kind of a weird thing to feel passionate about, but I do think Paul gets a bad rap. Some of it is very much deserved.

But I think that's a really big deal that in 1907 he told his wife, hey, you want to go to college? let's make it happen. And I think it's a really big deal that in 1916, he invested so much money in a business for her. Are people saying that's not a big deal on the Nell Donnelly message boards? I think that when we get to kind of the end of this story, you're going to see more of why people have such low regard for Paul. And I'm just saying like, I think especially when you're starting out in something, there are people who help you along the way and like you just can't, I mean, who knows what would have happened if he hadn't made that big investment in her? Sure. Right now, I'm a big fan of Paul. Okay. It's not his fault. He's got a, he's got a peen. And so he's, you know, president of the company. Yeah. Yeah. This poor guy just, you know, stumbled into this wonderful job. Yeah, as someone with a peen myself, you know, I connect with this man. And that is why you are president.

of this podcast. I'm president of an old-timey podcast. Yes. It would just be strange if Kristen was president of this podcast. Bizarre. Yeah. Once a month, we'd go bananas. Yeah, I get it.

Yeah. Thank you. People loved Nell. And that love was there for several reasons. For one thing, customers loved her because she really did care about the clothes. Specifically, she cared about sizing. And here we effing go, because she did something norm that to this day clothing manufacturers do not do. Really?

When she created a new dress, she had sample sizes in every single size. She felt very strongly that if people were going to buy one of her dresses, it needed to fit. She didn't want them to have to pay for alterations. Okay, so I mentioned this because in modern times, what clothing manufacturers will usually do is they'll take like a size six or a size eight and that's their sample size. What do you mean by sample size? It's like they get a garment and let's say they fit it to your body and, you know,

whatever size you are and like, okay, we're going to go up, we're going to add a few more inches here, a few more inches there for the bigger size and we're just going to keep adding, keep adding, keep adding. And for the lower sizes, we're going to shrink, shrink, shrink, shrink. And the problem with that is, like, you're not trying it on people's actual bodies. So the fit is probably not going to be as good. Okay. I listened to a fascinating episode of the podcast, Wait for It, where they talked about plus-sized clothing.

And they talked about the cold shoulder. Are you familiar with the cold shoulder? It's like... I'm familiar with getting the cold shoulder. Uh-huh. No, it's, you'll see it in women's clothing where there's like a hole cut out of the shoulder. Yeah, I always think that's weird. Okay.

So for a while, I really liked it. But then it was like everywhere forever. And especially in plus size clothing, it's still just a constant to the point that a lot of people are like, could we be done with this now? Like, we don't want this anymore. Why do they still do it? Okay, the episode of the podcast I listened to, and I hope I'm remembering this all correctly, was it helps with fit. If there's a big hole in the shoulders, then they don't have to go through all the hoops of, like, doing the sample sizes and fitting them to actual people's bodies. Because the whole...

It covers up some mistakes, you know? It's kind of like a, you know, a little lycra, you know, a little give, a little stretch. Hmm. Interesting. But yeah, she was doing this. And if she had a dress that she thought older women would want more, then, oh, no, we're not putting this on a 22-year-old. Go fit it to this 90-year-old woman. That's right. Get her out of the wheelchair.

Tell her to quit being so lazy and put the dress on her. Strap her onto this table and put the dress on. Okay, well, I mean, yeah, that is, especially if you're saying, like, companies don't do this today. Right. She was doing it back then. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Respect.

Her dresses were high quality, made with a lot of care, and they were stylish. Stylish for the average woman. So as her business grew, Nell took trips to Paris and Vienna to study new trends. Ooh. And she fell in love with printed silks. Oh, I thought you were going to say she fell in love with another man. Boy, you're really worried about Paul, aren't you? Well, I mean, you just said she fell in love in my heart style.

like with whom? Well. Printed silks though. Okay. So she negotiated a deal so that she could get those same beautiful prints on cotton and rayon. Rayon. Oh, do you want to tell your Rayon story? Okay.

Every time I hear the word rayon, one time when we were kids, me and my brother, whose name is Ryan, we went to go get a haircut. and the lady behind the counter was like, okay, what's your name? And he goes, and he goes, Ryan. And I was watching their computer screen, and she spelled his name, R-A-Y-O-N. And so ever since then, I call him Ray on. It's a joke. I do like it a lot. Yeah.

Beautiful printed silks, but now on cotton or on your brother, you know, whoever's closest. But it wasn't just customers who loved Nell Donnelly. Her workers loved her too. So this is where I think she was way ahead of her time. Also. She do beer Friday? No. Company picnic.

Although she was anti-prohibition. Ah. I hope you have your old-timey podcast bingo cards ready because I'm about to mention the triangle shirtwaist factory fire, which I guess is something I have to mention by law every five episodes. That's how it's panning out. Okay, so fans of the show know this story. I'm going to briefly recap. In 1911, there was a horrible fire at a factory in New York. 146 people, mostly girls and women, died in that fire, largely due to bad working conditions. Nell was affected by that tragedy, not just on a human level, but as a business person who herself ran a factory. And she decided early on to be a different kind of business person.

She paid her workers well, much higher than the rest of the industry. She provided a safe working environment. She offered medical care, life insurance. She paid for her employees to go to night school. She paid for her employees' children to go to nearby colleges. Okay, now. Every morning, she offered free coffee and donuts to workers. Oh, that's the real perk for me.

I'd be like, holy shit, free coffee and donuts? That's, you've got a loyal employee in me now. You know, when I was, when I first, when we first moved to Kansas City and I was applying for jobs, I applied for a job at Applebee's corporate headquarters. Yes. And one of the benefits listed on the job listing was all the soda you can drink. Such a weird perk. It's weird, but you know what? Got me to apply.

And I had an interview. And you said, I am just here for. I'm here for the soda. You do pay for my health insurance, right? Yeah, it is kind of strange that they offered both, but, you know, you have free coffee and donuts? Nice job now. Norm, you're going to love this next part.

What is it? In the afternoon, lemonade and snacks. Every day? Every day. Holy shit. I would love working here. She opened an employee cafeteria, which operated at a significant loss every year. She purchased a farm where employees could.

go have a picnic or hike or swim. Free cow hugs? Sure. Anyone dumb enough to hug a cow? Damn. Why is that dumb? I don't know. I guess just don't get behind the cow.

Do you think cows like a murderous, like rampaging animal or something? Oh, okay. Okay, sir. I can tell you're not from around here. Let me tell you a story from my own Missouri family. I have a great aunt who died, died because the cow she was milking, kicked her in the head, and her numnuts husband was like, oh, do I really need to take her to the hospital? And then by the time he did, she was, you know.

Okay, well, it sounds like the husband was the problem, not the cow. But also the cow kicked her in the head. I'm just saying it's, you know, maybe more dangerous than you're making it out to be. Yeah, well, I'm not, I'm not there to milk the cow. I want nothing to do with the udders. I just want to give the cow a hug. Okay. Yeah.

She bought a recreation center in town for them to use. Damn. She's living it up for these employees. Yeah, I want to, I want to be kind of clear, just kind of clear, not super clear. Like, obviously, she's not some saint, you know, offering coffee and donuts to workers. That sounds like the greatest thing you could ever. out and give an employee. Well, I do think it's smart in this time period where, you know, times are tight and you

want to keep your workers productive. And maybe a big part of that is to make sure that they can arrive to work and get the nourishment they need, maybe get some caffeine so that they can start sewing some dresses. Yeah. And back then, donuts were probably considered like a healthy breakfast or something. Sure. Yeah. So I'm just saying like, I think it's one of those things where it's something that's good for workers.

All of this stuff is good for workers. But it's also good for business too. And I think it's so annoying that sometimes people are like, oh, well, no, the best thing for the business is to operate it as cheaply as possible. No, I don't think so. No, keep your employees happy. Well, and like people wonder, like, why don't people want these jobs? Why don't people want to work anymore? And it's like, look at the shit they're offering.

Yes. It's terrible. No one wants to work that job. So all of these offerings set her ahead in her industry and ahead locally. I mean, offering medical care to people, that was a big deal. Shit, that'd be big deal today still. When a lot of garment makers started to unionize, hers didn't. And I'll say, of course, sometimes when companies don't unionize, it's because of intimidation and threats.

It's not because they just love working there. You're saying her employees didn't unionize because they were just like, we like working here. Why would we want to unionize? Basically, yeah. I still think it's smart to unionize, even if you enjoy working there. No, and I totally get that. And I'm sure that, you know, I'm painting with a pretty broad stroke here. But the general consensus is Nell treated her employees really well, better than the rest of the industry did.

and people were grateful for it. And so they felt no need to unionize. But Nell really differentiated herself from her competition during the Great Depression. The great what? Depression. Up until that time, most of Nell's employees were seasonal.

The Donnelly Garment Company did a summer line and a winter line. And when they were done making those lines, the factory just shut down. But when the stock market crashed and so many men lost their jobs, Nell realized that her employees, who were mostly women, might now be the only source of income for their entire families. So she figured out a way to keep her workers employed year round. The answer to all of her problems turned out to be the handy-dandy apron. The handy-dandy apron.

Have you ever heard of the handy-dandy apron? No. I know what an apron is. Well, very good. You're halfway there. It has a little bit of a cult following now. Nell patented it in 1925. And like all of her dresses, the handy-dandy apron was functional and attractive. Those were kind of the two main things that anything had to be.

But unlike her dresses, the apron was really easy to sew. One person with a pretty average skill set could sew an entire apron in basically just one step. Wow. May I Google? Sure, sure. The handy dandy apron? Yeah. It looks so close to our modern day aprons that I'm kind of like, what were aprons like before the handy dandy apron?

So, question, is this an apron you buy ready to go? Or is she selling like, here's how you make the handy dandy apron? I believe she might have sold the pattern, but really it was about. selling the apron itself. I'm getting search results of... What? Sexy, handy, construction, retail employee Halloween costumes. Oh.

These women with large beehines in, like, fake Home Depot aprons. Norm. How long will you be looking at that? Let me just double check and make sure this isn't like a... This isn't like a Nelly Dawn thing. There's also a screen capture from Blues Clues. This is a weird search result. All right.

I did see Nelly Dawn stuff there. So let's go ahead and continue. So now when her employees weren't working on the summer line or the winter line, they worked on handy-dandy aprons. And those aprons were really popular. They set the Donnelly garment company apart from so many other garment companies of that era. When other companies shut down or barely made a profit, the Donnelly garment company thrived. And that put a lot of eyeballs on them. And not just the company, but the Nell and Paul Donnelly love story.

They were married. They ran a business together. It all worked so perfectly. At least, that's how it appeared to the general public. It was interesting to read some of the articles about them before the kidnapping. Clearly just, you know, puff pieces in different publications about, you know, how they make it work and, you know, Nell seeming a little defensive about like, well, yes, I can be a woman and also run a business. It's possible. And you just see kind of, you know, like there are influencer couples today who present this shiny image of their relationship and their marriage.

Like you and me. Absolutely not. I am not a part of that. No, I do like when people say that they like our relationship and like, you know, how we talk to each other. But I would never want to be like one of those couples that... Our relationship is not the product. Right. Gotcha.

Right. Yeah. That just creeps me out. And sets you up to fail. On that note, so they had this image. But the truth was, Nell and Paul had problems. A lot of problems. through a more modern lens, I think it's clear that Paul had mental health problems.

It's possible that he'd always struggled with his mental health. It's also possible that going away to war for two years had made those problems a lot worse. That was my first thought is what did he do in the war? He, I believe he joined the army. Well, I think everyone joined the army back then. That was like. Oh, did they not have different branches then? I had the Navy, but like...

Well, that's all I could tell you. So he saw combat. As punishment, you're going to be like, and now I will do that World War I series. No, I'm sure he did. I'm sure he did. Yeah. Well, even if you didn't fight, you probably saw some horrible shit. So, yeah, I'm guessing his mental health issues became exasperbated, what's that word?

Masturbated. No. No. Exacerated. What is it? Exacerbated. Exacerbated? Yeah.

Because of the war. I am smart. S-M-R-T. It's also possible that even though it had been very progressive of him to support Nell through college and to financially support her business venture, that maybe over time he struggled with the fact that even though he was the man and even though. and even though he had the highest title at their company, no one thought of him as the boss.

So is his ego getting in the way now? Yeah. Even in modern sources, one modern source I read made some comment about like, Nell didn't just wear the pants in the relationship, she sewed the pants too. Ooh. So obnoxious.

So yeah, he didn't get a lot of respect. maybe. No respect. He was going against the grain a little bit. I mean, to this day, the man doesn't have his own Wikipedia page. It's a damn shame. Over the years, Paul turned to drinking. He drank a lot. He was racked with insecurities. And it seems he had a lot of insecurities around having children.

The rumor was that Paul couldn't have kids. And he knew he couldn't have children. And he told Nell throughout their men, marriage that if she ever got pregnant, he would kill himself. Because he knew he wouldn't be the father? Yeah. The first time he made that threat, he pulled a gun out of his desk drawer and held it to his head. Jesus. That terrified Nell. And as time went on and Paul kept making that threat, Nell found herself waiting for her husband to go to lunch so that she could go take the gun out of his desk, go up to the top of the warehouse, and

drop it down the elevator shaft. Man, you want to talk about emotional manipulation? Yeah. That's some fucking shit right there. Nell later estimated that she dropped about 30 of his guns down that elevator shaft. Did he keep wondering where are my guns? Where did my gun go? I think he was a pretty unstable guy.

Yeah. I feel like by the fifth one, I'd be like, okay, who's the prankster, taking my guns? So their marriage wasn't. stable. Paul came in late to work. He cheated on Nell constantly. He cheated on Nell? All the time. Well, there goes any ounce of respect I have for the man. There it is. That's it. That's the last straw. Nell knew that he cheated on her, but she felt like there was nothing she could do to stop him. So she looked the other way. Why didn't she divorce them? Is it because of that? It's 1931, sir. You got divorced in the 1930s.

It was a scandal. Well, and they were like a very public couple and, yeah, the love story and building the business. So it's a little harder than... Also, yeah, like, okay, so let's say we get divorced. What happens with the business? Is it going to be clean? Will there be a buyout? Yeah, yeah, that's true.

And he'll be like, well, I'm the president. Sure. Will he say, yeah, you can buy me out, but you can't make another. dress again. You have to make gaucho pants now. What the hell is a gaucho pants? Exactly. No one wants to wear it. Uh, okay. So damn, that sucks. She's in a tough spot. So yeah, she'd made it a habit of looking the other way. But then one day, Nell came home to find Paul in bed with another woman. And the other woman was wearing her pajamas. Like her literal pajamas.

Nell went to her home, caught her husband in bed, in their bed with another woman, and that other woman was wearing Nell Donnelly's, I'm assuming, very nice pajamas. I don't even want to know what you would do if you came home. Oh my God. Saw me in bed with another woman and she was wearing your ratty-ass robe that you've had for 50s. 15 years. I think you lose your fucking shit. That is my finest item. It was from TJ Max 2014. She's not giving it up. I think that would just like escalate it by 10 if she was wearing your robe.

It would. It would. Especially if she looked better in it than me, which, you know, how could she? Impossible. Clearly. Joe, I'll send you a photo of the robe. I've got photos of Chris. So ugly. I do need a new robe. So that was kind of the final straw for now. She was sick of the disrespect, sick of being the loyal one. And around that time, she met a man named James A. Reed.

Oh, I know this name. Oh, do you? How do you know this name? What can you tell us about it? He's famous Kansas City. And he's a lawyer? What else do you know? I'm going to pull a norm here. Norm, tell me everything you know about James A. Reed. Go. Oh, shit. All I know he's a lawyer. Oh, wow, that was short. Okay.

Wait, is he the one that did the redlining in Kansas City? No. No. Future topic? Future topic? Yes. Okay. Kansas City history nerds will know that name. James A. Reed served as the Jackson County prosecutor. He was the mayor of Kansas City. He served as a three-time U.S. senator. And he ran for president. in 1924, in

1988, and spoiler alert also in 1932, but he lost the nomination to some no-name douchebag named Franklin D. Roosevelt. Who's ever heard of him? James A. Reed was famous. He was well respected.

He was neighbors with the Donnellys. At that house? I think that's the one you were looking at. Oh. And also, he was married. Scandalous? Well, you know,

know what? If, if Paul is... Wow, Paul fucks around. You hate him so much. Listen, listen. It's the pajamas that got you, isn't it? Listen. Uh-huh. If he's brazenly banging women... Braisingly. Is that a word? Brazenly. He's brazenly banging women.

Uh-huh. When her PJs, I think it's open season in the Donnelly household. Okay. Okay. Bring on the cock. It's cock season. Yeah. Fagina season. Cock season. Oh.

Fagina season. Sorry. That's that classic Warner Brothers bit. A classic Looney Tunes bit. It's hard to know when exactly the affair started, but it is believed to have started when Nell hired James to represent her in a lawsuit against a manufacturing company that had tried to rip off her handy dandy apron design. Oh, those bastards. Yeah, I think not. It was patented.

That's right. James won the. case. Hell yeah. And even though they had a massive, disgusting, dingy, filthy, nasty age gap, Nell fell hard for James A. Reed. Okay. Let's hear the age gap.

Like 30 years. So she was, okay, I'm just, what year is it? It's 1931. Okay, so she's 40? She's in her early 40s. Early 40s? And he's 70? Yeah, she might be 40.

And he's 70, yeah. Damn. I know. He was kind of hot. Okay. Well, hey, you know what? That's what she wants for dinner? She's going to eat.

James told her all the right things. He claimed that he and his wife, Lura, had an arrangement. L-U-R-A. L-U-R-A. L-U-R-A. I know. Laura's got nothing on Lura. Yeah.

They had an arrangement. They didn't have. have sex. In fact, they hadn't had sex in years. There's was a platonic relationship. But he could never leave Lura. He was too loyal. Poor guy. What a poor guy. I know. I think this is bullshit. He told this, he told that story to Nell and he told that story to a reporter who kept it quiet for a long time, obviously not forever if I'm telling you the story. A reporter kept this quiet? Back in the day, reporters were a lot more, I almost used the word respectful.

I don't know that that's the word I want to use, but like, JFK was banging everybody. And we didn't find out about that until years later. Yeah. Warren G. Harding, I'm looking at you, chum. I'm doing an episode on you, buddy. He's not listening to this podcast. He's been dead for a while. But yeah, a lot of politicians, like they had an understanding with the media. Interesting. Okay.

So they had this relationship where James would tell his wife, oh, I'm going to go smoke my cigar. And of course, I'm not going to bother you by smoking in our beautiful home. I'm just going to walk outside with it. And then he'd walk over to the Donnelly's house. Smoke it at the Donnellys in Nell's bedroom. Yeah. Naked. With an erection.

Okay. Thank you, darling. Goodbye, Lur. For a while, their arrangement was good enough for now. But then, in 1931, she got pregnant. And that was a big problem. He got her pregnant? Yeah.

In his 70s? Yeah, dudes can do that. Yeah, they can. There's a, I think, President John Tyler. Yeah. Had kids in like his 80s and one of his grandsons is still alive. It's, it's wild. John Tyler was president, I think, in the 1840s and his grandson is alive.

That's got to be great grandson. No. No. Yes. Sir. I'm about you're going to learn today, Kristen. Yeah, he's 96 years old. Harrison Ruffin Tyler.

My God. The grand son of John Tyler. Good God. Who was president from 1841 to 1845. These old men, I swear. So this was a big problem because she definitely wasn't carrying her husband's baby. Yeah. Well, and he knows he can't make babies.

That was kind of the rumor. But yeah, I think he knew he couldn't. Yeah. Well, and he freaking put a gun to his head and was like, if you have a kid, I'm going to kill myself. Right. Yeah. But Nell knew what she wanted. She wanted to divorce Paul and buy out his stake in the company.

And she wanted James to divorce his wife and for the two of them to get married and raise their child together. Wouldn't that be great? Okay. Well, that's not happening. That's fantasy land. Yes. James told Nell, I'm not leaving my wife. We have been married since before you were born.

which is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. And if someone has to tell you that... You want to kill the mood. There you go. We have been married since before you were born. And she still thinks I'm smoking a cigar right now. I've been gone for three days. Plus, you're Irish.

I'm not going to marry an Irish woman. Oh, God, yeah. Uh-huh. Real charming. Yep. The discrimination against the Irish and the Italians, back then was is bad.

That had to have been devastating for Nell and kind of scary. Nell and James were both famous. If the truth got out, it would be a huge scandal. It would probably mean that he could never be

a serious candidate for president. And it might harm Nell's business. People love the story of her and Paul, right? Although she really shouldn't worry about his political ambitions because it's like, okay, you got FDR.

I guess she didn't know that the time, but like, yeah, FD. You're going to have FDR for like 15 years. Yeah, I mean, they don't know that at this time. Yeah. And also, James A. Reed thought the new deal was so stupid. So stupid. He also didn't think that women should have the right to vote.

I mean, just all real. I bet he loved Francis Perkins. Yeah, right. I bet he said all kinds of terrible shit about Francis Perkins. God damn it, James A. Reed. Future topic? No. Wait, did we already say future topic on James A.

read? No. I don't want to do another episode on this guy. Okay, fair enough. Okay, so what do you do in this situation, Norm? If I'm who? You're now, you're pregnant with a 70-year-old man's baby. Your husband is unstable and definitely doesn't want you to be pregnant. For some reason, I have this image of if an old man impregnates you, the baby will come out as a little old man. That's not how, that's not how any of this works. Um, what do you do? What do you do? I guess you look into getting a smush-mortion.

Okay. Um, she's not going to do that. So let's take that off the table. Oh, you claim. Well, okay. I am so excited to hear what you're about to say. Aliens. Uh, do you confess to Paul and say, we just have to say we adopted the kid?

Oh. Oh, Norm, you would have done just fine as an old-timey woman. Let me tell you what now came up with. In the summer of 1931, she announced that she was going to Europe to adopt a child. Goodbye now, going to Europe. Well, I'll be gone nine months to adopt this child. No, she left when she started showing, I think. Yeah.

And those dresses were, you know, if she switched back to the old mother Hubbard dress. Yeah, I bet she wish she hadn't started a revolution, huh? That would be funny if she's like, okay, designers, I've come up with the next big thing. Yeah, it's a tent, and I think we should just all wear these tents for like the next year or so. Yeah, these will be in for like nine to ten months. Uh-huh. So everyone start making these right now. And again, if I get myself into another weird jam. Yeah, so she told everyone she was going to Europe to adopt a child. In reality, she went to Chicago and gave birth to one. And she was able to hide out in Chicago? Yeah.

What if she met Al Capone? I doubt it. So that three-month-old baby that she had just adopted, that baby that she was so worried about getting home to on the evening she was abducted, it was her biological child and the biological child of her famous married neighbor. But Nell's kidnappers didn't know that. They couldn't have known it. All they knew was that she was rich and that surely her husband would pay anything to get her back, right? Well, and like babies at that age, like, no offense, but I feel like a lot of babies look exactly the same at that age. So, no offense to babies.

Babies are turning off this podcast right and left. They are so pissed. Yeah, shitting their diapers and turning off. Yeah, so, like, you can't really tell. it doesn't look like Nell or, you know, a little old man smoking a cigar. Right. Everyone, Norm is a big fan of babies. We just visited our friends Kate and Tim.

They just had a little baby. They did. And I took a wonderful photo of Norm with the baby. And by with the baby, I mean very far away on the couch, like as far away as he could get on the couch from this baby. Should the baby do anything fast, you know. Yeah. I'm babies make me very uncomfortable. That's all.

What is it about them? I just don't, I, they're very fragile. Uh-huh. And I just don't want to like drop the baby. Uh-huh. Or, you know, accidentally toss it into the ceiling fan or, you know, who knows what's going to happen. Why would you do that? But like, okay, this is like part of like, I'm afraid of heights.

Yes. And for some reason, I always envision I'm up on this like skyscraper rooftop. and I just become the most clumsy man in the world, and I trip and fall off the skyscraper. Yeah. And so it's that same fear with babies that, like, something's going to happen. You are the skyscraper. Yeah.

Yeah. And they are the clumsy little man smoking a cigar. Yeah. So it's just, for me, the safety is I just won't hold the baby. I will admire the baby from afar. Yes. It's a very cute baby. Bad evening in that dingy, nasty, filthy coffee.

Nell's captors told her that they were going to make a business out of kidnapping people. She just happened to be the first victim. Yeah, good luck getting that incorporated. Secretary of State. Well, what's your operating agreement? Yeah, we kidnap people. Yeah, that's what we do. Uh-huh.

We're quite good. We're not great. We've been told that we should just blindfold everybody and quit with the business about don't look at us. But, you know, we're learning. We're just starting out, okay? Yeah, good startup. Norm, I hate to tell you this, but the business plan did kind of make sense. The Great Depression had made people really desperate. Kidnapping a wealthy person seemed like an easy way to make a lot of money really fast.

And although kidnappings were on the rise, they hadn't really reached a fever pitch. As a country, we hadn't yet experienced a kidnapping so bad or so high profile that it prompted lawmakers to increase penalties for kidnapping. So you're saying kidnappings were not in full swing yet? I'm going to say they are actually in full swing because, and I struggle with how to word this, but I feel like Nell's kidnappers were at this weird window in time where the reward really might outweigh the risk. During the depression, sure.

Now, of course, it really, it hardly ever does. But the penalties for kidnapping, they just weren't as harsh as they should have been. And I'm really just dancing around the fact that the Lindbergh baby had not been kidnapped yet. Because that would be the one. That was the one that changed everything? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and as someone who has kidnapped 13 people myself.

None of them babies, because you'd hate to drop them as you're kidnapped. I'm too uncomfortable to kidnap a baby. Sure. Yeah. George and Nell did everything that the kidnappers told them to do. But as the hours crept on, they had to wonder what everyone back home was thinking. They had to wonder if anyone even knew for certain that they were missing. And the almost unbelievable reality is that no, no one had noticed.

At least... It's crazy. Yeah, not in the Donnelly household. Where was Paul doing? Oh, we'll get to that. And when James A. Reed steps out for his nightly cigar. He's in Jefferson City right now trying a case. Okay.

So he's busy. Now, the nurse who had been hired to take care of baby David, not named baby Davy, although he should have been, noticed that Mrs. Donnelly didn't come home at six to relieve her of her duties. So, of course, she noticed. But it doesn't appear that she was alarmed by that. Well, if she's a busy woman working, runs her own company. Yeah, I'm sure that happens all the time. Oh, she's got a late night. It's whatever.

And Paul noticed that Nell didn't come home, but he just figured she'd gone out to dinner with friends. He said that he called a few people, but nobody knew where she was. I wonder if that's just the kind of thing you say later, because it seems so weird that your wife didn't come home and you were just like, whatever. Yeah, I feel like he's probably checked out. I do wonder if marriages where there's this much money and there's already kind of an understanding, hey, we're both cheating on each other, the idea that you're like tracking one another's movements might not make sense. You know, she goes off to Europe a bunch. He goes off, God knows where.

Maybe that was just kind of what their marriage was like. Yeah. Well, okay. Backtrack here a little bit. when she was like, I'm going to go, your tear up and adopt a baby. Was Paul in on this? Did she tell Paul?

I do not know. I do not know. Wow. A real mystery. It's funny. Her family didn't come out and state the obvious, you know, that the baby was biologically hers and James A.

Reeds until like the early 2000s. Damn. I don't want to call it a secret because in the next episode, you're going to get hints that like, yeah, people kind of knew there was something up there. But I can't say for certain that she went to Paul and told him the truth. I think there's an argument for, you know, if someone's really unstable, not an argument to lie to him and go give birth in Chicago, but you know what I mean? Yeah.

You got to be delicate about the situation. Sure. She's thrown away 30 of his handguns. That's right. So, and no one noticed that Nell Donnelly was missing. As for George, well, George was married. He and his wife Savannah were active members of their community. They were active in their church, members of clubs. They just started renting a little place on Norton Avenue.

It's no longer there. I hate to tell you. Damn. But if Savannah was worried about George, it seems very unlikely that she would have called the police. In the 1930s, the Kansas City Police. police force, in addition to being very corrupt and largely under the control of the Kansas City mob, had a reputation for being horrible to black residents. So if Savannah had sensed danger, she would have been pretty unlikely to call the police for help. Understandable. All this to say,

that for the kidnappers, this was the perfect scenario. They wanted this done quietly. They wanted their money quickly and they didn't want the police involved. Worked out great. Sweet. Mm-hmm. So they set the remainder of their plan in motion. They set Nell down at a table with a pen and paper. They shone a flashlight on the page and they told her to write her own ransom note. She asked them, who do you want me to write to? And they were like, write to your husband. But Nell knew that was a bad idea. She told them that her husband. She told them that her husband. She told them that her husband had been ill for the past two weeks. She said if he got a ransom letter, it would make him even more sick. And the men were like, well, you've got a right to someone. Yeah. Yeah, we're not

taking no for an answer. So Nell thought and thought trying to figure out who could save her. And she got an idea. She told the men that she could write a letter to her attorney, Mr. James Taylor, aka James A. Reed. No, Mr. James Taylor. But this is a different man. Yes. Okay. Whose name is James Taylor.

Yeah, I get it. Okay, James Taylor. I know the way you said it, it seemed... I was having fun because I felt like I was really gearing up to make you think that she was reaching out to James A. read her lover. But instead, she was reaching out to James Taylor, her attorney. She could have reached out to Mr. Gregory Peck. She could have. Or George Beck.

he was off in Hollywood. I swear you said Gregory Peck Dry Good story. I swear I did not. Fuck. Joe helped me out. That night, the men had her write two ransom letters. In the letter to her attorney, she wrote, Dear Mr. Taylor, I have been kidnapped,

and I suppose you might as well try to raise what they want. Nell Donnelly. Do not mark money. She wrote something else, but her handwriting was really shaking. and I couldn't quite make it out. Underneath that, a bit bigger, she wrote, James E. Taylor, I hereby give you power to draw money requested against my husband's account. The amount is $75,000. I sign my name in full, Nell Donnelly of Donnelly Garment Company.

On that same sheet of paper, she wrote a letter to her husband, dictated to her by the kidnappers. That letter, because of its contents, was probably much scared. barrier to write, and her handwriting is a lot shakier. So I've done my best to write out what it says. Okay. It reads, Dear Paul, these men say they want $75,000. Use your own judgment. They kidnapped me and chauffeur Wednesday night. If you do not pay as directed, $75,000 in each, $25,000 in $50 bills, $25,000 in 20s, 25,000 in tens, if he or, and a word I couldn't make out, doesn't do as directed, we shall take him, same as taken you. If reported to police or any authorities, we shall blind you and kill the N-word.

You should take your car, 291035, which I assume was his license plate, which they included to scare the shit out of him. tomorrow at 10 o'clock and stand in front of Mercer Hotel for 15 minutes. That is showing that you are ready to pay. If not, stand it at same place at 9.30 a.m. Friday morning. If not ready, then it will cost you $25,000 more. The letter goes on to say that whether he shows up at 10 o'clock or 9.30, either way, he should stay there for 15 minutes, then go home and await further instructions. The ransom letter ends with this.

If this letter is given or reported to any police authorities, it will be the last of me. And they will get you, same as they got me. So if you call the police, we'll kidnap you too. We will blind your wife, kill the chauffeur, and we'll abduct you to. Why do they want it in different denominations? Like, why do they want like 50s and 20s and 10s? It might be easier for them to count. Also, if you're not wanting marked bills,

maybe you make specific requests so that you're not just getting what they've got ready and marked. That's just me guessing. I feel like it would be easier to count if they were all the same bills, like all 20s. Sure, but then when you go to spend the money, you don't want it to be too flashy where you've got $100. bill in 1931, you know. Or maybe they're running like a Davein Busters or something. That's exactly what's happening here.

Yeah. Norm, I've got a fun fact for you. Oh, a titty-bitty. That's right. The Mercer Hotel, or they asked him to go, is no longer around. Damn. But in 1941, it reopened. Ooh.

Guess what the name of the hotel was when they reopened it. Um, what? Hotel Andrew Jackson. Oh, well, you know, Kansas City is in Jackson County and it was named after Andrew Jackson, so. I thought you would love that. That's cool. As long as it wasn't Hotel Andrew Johnson, that would have been bad. Yes.

Yeah. Once Nell finished writing the ransom letters, the kidnappers took them with the plan of delivering the letters to James Taylor's home. He'd opened them the following morning. but the kidnappers wanted someone to know what they'd done. So that evening at 11 p.m., the kidnappers called the home of James Taylor. James's wife answered the phone. And when she did, a man who refused to identify himself told her that she would find Nell Donnelly's abandoned vehicle at the Country Club Plaza,

parked behind the Plaza Theater. And James's wife... laughed, and she laughed. She laughed. And she laughed. She didn't take them seriously? She thought it was ridiculous. Some guy who won't identify himself, he's calling at 11 p.m.

saying, I've got Nell Donnelly's lime green car parked down on the plaza. She's like, ooh, okay, bye. And hung up on him? That's funny. She thought that what they told them. was ridiculous. And later when she told her husband about the call, he laughed too. Because you know what? There was another James Taylor in Kansas City and he worked for the licensing bureau. So they just figured this was a prank call intended for the other James Taylor. You know, like, oh, abandoned vehicle. And so they just went to sleep. They were totally unfaced.

Ignorance is bliss. Meanwhile, George and Nell tried to remain stoic in the faces of the kidnappers. But when the time came for her to lie down in that dirty cot and try to get some sleep, all Nell could do was cry. On next week's episode, the ransom letters arrive, James A. Reed goes apeshit, and the Kansas City Mafia solves a kidnapping. The Mafia? Yes.

They are in full swing. They're in full swing. They're solving crimes now. They're like Scooby in the gang. Let me tell you something. Nell Donnelly, this was a high profile kidnapping. The Kansas City Mafia really liked the setup they had where the police were on their side and didn't do anything to them. And now all of a sudden, everyone in the nation was watching Kansas City.

So not good for them. So hey, let's solve this real quick and we'll help you solve it. Not just help. We will solve it. We will solve it. So that's next week's episode. I'm so excited. I love this story.

I think it is nuts. Now, you covered this on, let's go to court, right? Yes. But it was just one episode, right? Yes. This has been wild because it was one of my favorite cases. I just, I think it's so cool that this woman, she, well, no, I'll tell you more. I'll tell you other stuff next week.

I'm just a little excited. But yeah, it has been so fun to go back into this story because I found a ton of stuff that I didn't find the first time. It's bigger, it's better, it's in a tighter sweater, you know, what can we do? So it's harder, better, faster, stronger. What song is that? You unlock something. Okay. Harder, better, faster, stronger.

What'd you think? Now, you're not a kidnapping guy. I've kidnapped 13 people. I just told you. But do you like a kidnapping story? Yeah. Okay. So I'm not a true crime fan.

Right. But kidnappings, I think those are a little easier on me because sometimes, yeah, the kidnappers are just like, we want money and then we'll let you go and it's all good. It's a little less gruesome than some other stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it can be. It can be, yeah. No, I'm with you. I'm with you.

There's more hope with a kidnapping. Well, and there can be a little, not that your motives are ever pure in a kidnapping, but there's something a lot more understandable about it's desperate times. And you don't want to physically hurt somebody. But you need money. Yeah. Yeah. Not saying anybody should go kidnap people if you need money.

Well, hell no. Yeah. Kristen. Yes. In this episode, we talked about a tumultuous marriage. Oh, yes. And I think maybe we should talk to the history hose about a show we've been watching recently. That also features tumultuous marriages. Uh-huh.

And that show is called Married at First Sight. Everyone. Norman's dad recommended this show to me. My fucking dad pulled Kristen aside at Thanksgiving. It was like, Kristen, I think you'd love this show. It's called Married at First Site. Okay. Everyone, it's on Lifetime.

It's on Hulu right now. They've got several seasons. I will tell you, every episode is an hour and a half long, which is insane. and totally unnecessary. What you need for every season, you watch the first couple episodes, you watch the last couple episodes, and you fast forward all the episodes in between

to go to your most dramatic couple. Yeah, it's an interesting show. It's way too long. You know, like you said, each episode is like an hour and a half. And then each season is like 18 to 20 episodes. Yeah. And a lot of the episodes are like,

they're sitting down. and they're just like, so what made you want to do this wild experiment? And they're like, I just think I want to be a bit more vulnerable. It's like the most generic talk in the world. I love it. I love it. The beginning is interesting because you learn about them and their interactions when they first meet. But like the stuff that the producers are like, okay, you're going to sit down at this countertop bar in your boring apartment.

And you're going to talk about these bullet points. And you're going to drink out of glasses that are frosted so you can't tell the amount of liquid that's in the glass so that we can edit as much as we need to without the glass being a giveaway. Yeah. So this is the perfect segue. So my sister, Kyla, and I have been talking for a while about doing some kind of reality show podcast. I don't know what it's going to look like, but we talked about like, what if we just watched the, wildest episodes of random reality TV shows. Yeah.

And we just talked a bunch of smack. First of all, you and Kyla doing a reality TV podcast would be entertaining. It's our greatest passion. But I actually think you should just go do the whole season. I don't know if I would jump around. Really? Yeah, rack it up, rack it in, let me begin. And I'm supposed to take advice from you, this man right here.

Okay, married at first sight. There's some characters on this show. Oh, you're wanting to do a recap right now. I want to talk more about this show. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There's some characters.

We watched season 14, which features a man named Mark. Uh-huh. Who, his job, something to do with gym memberships. They don't actually say what. I love it when they're vague about their job titles. Yeah. The vague job titles always sound way better than the reality. Yeah.

So he marries this woman named Lindsay who is just... She's intense, folks. Let me tell you. But, like, they're just characters. There's one scene where they're, like, cleaning out his apartment. And she's like, oh, it's in this box. And it was, like, a bunch of, like, I think audio CDs. And he was like, yeah, those are my 90210 CDs.

Yes. And I'm like, what the hell is that? And they didn't, they didn't explain. No explanation. We didn't get any more detail. And then also in that season is this woman. named Alyssa, who is matched with a pleasant gentleman named Chris, she takes one look at him and is like, no, and proceeds to basically not participate in anything, claiming the experts

fucked up, she has been wronged, and that this guy is a huge asshole and is super mean. it is like you want textbook gaslighting. Oh, yeah. Watch that unfold on that show. To me, what was so interesting about that was you see where her mind's at. You see her look at him and not feel any physical attraction. But you also see her kind of going, but I'm on TV. And I don't want to be the person who's like, hey, yeah, I know I signed up for married

at first sight. I know that's the whole gimmick. I just didn't think you'd look like that. And now I'm mad and now I want out. So she tries to like lie her way out of that. Yeah. And act like, oh, well, it's actually his personality. And of course, the great irony of the whole season was like,

lady, you would have looked so much better if you had just been like early on. Hey, I'm so sorry. I don't feel the physical attraction. I don't think I can get there. I shouldn't have come on this show. Yeah. Apologies to you. Goodbye.

Gracefully bow out. Yeah. There's one scene where. Or actually try. Actually be a mature person. Fake it until you make it. There's one scene where I think the producers forced them to play tennis with each other. Yeah, that was great.

And then she just quits midway through. She's like, I just can't do this. And the producers come up and they're like, what's wrong, Alyssa? What's wrong? And she's like, he's just so mean. I mean, just look at him. Look at him with those hand gestures. And they cut to the camera.

And Chris is talking to, I think, another producer. And they're just like admiring the architecture of Puerto Rico. And they're just like, yeah, look at this building. Look at this. And he's just like pointing out stuff he notices. Chris is what we call a non-threatening boy. He is a non-threatening boy for sure. He plays disc golf.

They had some great B-roll of him throwing discs in slow motion. Kristen cracked up every time. Well, he was playing it with a. tucked in polo, which is a look. I mean, it was really something. Yeah, so Norm feels strongly that the show is a little too stupid for him. I get that. It's not too stupid for me. I like it. Well, we have an agreement. It's, Kristen, you watch Married at First Sight all you want. You don't have to wait for me to watch episodes. And you can just give me the recap. This show moves very slowly. I'm not going to miss anything. It's a glacial pace. Yeah. And they have a relationship expert on there whose name is Dr. Pepper, which is just great. We watched season one last week. Yeah. And it is so different than like the later seasons. It's like, you know, kind of like the pilot season. Yeah. Where they're trying to figure out how the show is going to work. And they have like experts on the show that I have never seen before. And I did think that season was pretty good. They only had three couples instead of five. and there are only 10 episodes instead of 60 in the later seasons.

I want all the couples. I want maximum couples. That way, someone's going to be interesting. So I think out of three, you'll find one. No, false. No, the episodes are too long. Let me tell you, as the one who actually watched the whole thing, no. You need minimum five.

Minimum five couples. Yeah. Yeah. My favorite thing from season one was, you know, they're explaining how the show is going to work. These experts, find these people, and then they match them up, and according to the show, they're using this secret proprietary software that the CIA uses as well. Uh-huh. And I thought it would be funny if, in season one, they run the software to match up some young lady with some dude.

And the software glitches out. and it actually matches the woman with a known wanted terrorist from the CIA's headlist. Great idea. I would watch that TV show. So yeah, that's what we've been up to. Talking with friends, no, hanging out with people, no, social activities, no. Watching a ton of married at first sight on the recommendation of Norm's father. Yeah, thanks, Dad.

Well, we've been recording for two hours and 15 minutes now. Oh, geez, okay. So, but, you know, I just had to talk about Mary to first time. Well, that was a must do, must talk about it. Yeah. Stay tuned for the next episode. It'll be part two of Kristen's series on the Nell Donnelly Kidnapping. Let us know what you think of us chit-chatting at the end of this episode.

We kind of did that a little bit last time, and I think it's kind of fun, but, you know, Yeah. Maybe people want less chit. It's at the end of the juicy stuff, so like they don't like it, turn it the hell off. Wow. Okay, Norm doesn't want your feedback. All right. Kristen, you know what they say about history, hoes?

We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from the article Nelly Gone. KCQ traces the kidnapping of Nell Donnelly by Kate Hill for the Kansas City Public Library. Reporting from the Kansas City Times, the book, More Than than petticoats, Remarkable Missouri Women by Elaine Warner, the book James A. Reed, legendary lawyer, Marplot in the United States Senate, by J. Michael Cronin, the article, First, a Lady, by Jennifer Wilding for the Kansas City Star Magazine, and a whole bunch of other articles, too.

That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, our slash old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. I'm at Kristen Pitts-Keruso and he's at Gaming Historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio.

Bye!