An Old Timey Podcast - 45: Robert Smalls Battles Bribery Charges (Part 4)

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Brace yourselves. This episode is chock-full of post-reconstruction politics. Boy, is it grim! And also a little… relevant? (Ew!)As South Carolina politics turned on its head, Robert Smalls emerged as one of the few Republican politicians still able to hold his seat. Unfortunately, Smalls’ influence and popularity put a target on his back. Soon, his political opponents ensured that he was charged with bribery. The trial was an absolute mess.Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Norm pulled from: Billingsley, Andrew. Yearning to Breathe Free: Robert Smalls of South Carolina and His Families. Columbia: University of South Carolina Press, 2010.Lineberry, Cate. Be Free or Die: The Amazing Story of Robert Smalls’ Escape from Slavery to Union Hero. St. Martin’s Press, 2017.Miller, Edward. Gullah Statesman: Robert Smalls from Slavery to Congress, 1839-1915. University of South Carolina Press, 2008.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Norman Caruso. And well, laity freaking da, it's Kristen Caruso. And on this episode, it's part four of my series on Robert Smalls. Woohoo! I almost forgot what part we're on. I almost said part three. You're in the thicket, sir. I am in the thicket. You're struggling. There's a lot of stuff. You've already told me. There's a lot of stuff. You've already told me there's a lot of stuff.

in this episode. I'm in it. My back is freaking killing me right now. I don't know what I did to my back, but... You've been sitting in a chair reading about reconstruction. That is true. But you got me a new office chair for Christmas. It's supposed to help with my back.

You know, they say that 80% of people who go to chiropractors are there because they've spent too much time researching reconstruction. Yep, that makes sense. I mean, you're on the edge of your stuff. seat when you research reconstruction like I was. And you're hunched over, you know. You're devastated and it just, it does a number on the spine. It really does. Norm, you're looking at me like maybe you want me to do a Patreon plug and let me tell you, I'm ready, big boy. You know, your last three have been really suss, so. No, they've been

great. Oh, I just, I just cracked my back. Do you hear that? No. Oh, I felt good. What the hell is happening over there? Well, my God, I'm glad you're getting it together. Meanwhile, here I am. trying to be a professional trying to do a Patreon plug. Are you ready? Yep. Okay, folks. I know you want to support this independent, sexy little podcast that you're listening to right now. And let me tell you something. First of all, thank you for listening. That's a great way to support us. Yeah, thank you. But if you're like, I got to kick it up a notch, let me tell you how to do it. You go over to patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. When you get there,

you'll be like, my God, there are some options for me. I'll tell you about two of them right now. the $5 level, you get a monthly bonus episode. And guess what? It's a video episode so you can watch our faces. You can look at Norm's smug weird little face right now as he suffers through this Patreon. Don't say I have a weird little face. You're making a weird little face, kind of like a little bit cringing, a little bit amused, a little bit like, I can't believe she didn't write any of this down. Anyhow, at that level, you also get into our discord. And guess what? People are hilarious in there. Sometimes they're serious, but you know what?

That's how life is. It's a mixed bag. Okay, you're telling me, you know what, $5? Psh, pocket change. I want to give you $10 a month. Well, boy, have I got news for you. At that level, you get those two things I already mentioned. Plus!

Hold on, plus! You get early, ad-free video episodes of this very podcast you're listening to right here. Plus, you get monthly children. trivia parties. Ooh. Trivia. And you get a card with stickers and we autograph those bad boys. And if you're wondering, what's the monetary value of Kristen and Norm's signature?

It's up there. It's up there. Single digits. Sell your house. Sell your house. Sell all your possessions because all you're going to need. Please don't advise people. Is this card?

That's going to get you whatever you want in life. Circle drive. way? It's yours. In-ground swimming pool, it's yours because that's the value of these cards. Double front doors. Oh, God. We should be so lucky. Also at that level. Oh, it's still going. 10% off merch. And holy crap. Were you also a fan of my old decrepit rotting podcast? Let's Go to Court. I got good news for you, sweet cheeks. When you join our Patreon, you get access to all of our old bonus episodes. You get all the ad-free episodes. My God. What a great time. Every single episode of Let's Go to Court,

ad-free. What a deal. I know. I know. That's why I'm telling people. And if we reach 4,500 patrons, Kristen, I will be cutting my facial hair to replicate 1868 presidential candidate Horatio Seymour's facial hair. You should Google that sometime. You really shouldn't. It's really interesting. Folks, let me save you some time. It's described as a neck beard. What it is is neck pubs.

It's horrifying. And for the record, 4,500 patrons would be a jump. And thank God it would be a jump. Because you need to, Mr. I'm looking at you. Oh. What? I know that you're serious that if we get there, you will do this horrifying facial hair. Yeah, well.

That may wreck our marriage. Wreck our marriage. Have you seen a picture of that man? I know you have. Anyhow, here's what I will say. You need to just make it clear to the people up front. Your sister's wedding is not that far away. So if we do hit that goal, you need to be honest with people and say that you will not attempt the neck pub turtleneck until after your sister's wedding.

Yeah, we're not hitting the goal by then. Okay. This is a long-term goal. My fear, my darling good man, is that we would hit it way sooner than expected, and then you'd show up to Randy's wedding. And she just, oh. I don't even want to know what she would say. One of you would not survive. Yeah.

My money's on you. Yeah. She was texting me today about tie widths. She's like, how wide is your tie? Is it two and a half inches? I didn't even know ties came in different widths, by the way. So I took out a tape measure and measured my tie. It's actually 3.25 inches wide, which is pretty above average, I must say.

Congratulations on your 3.25 inches, Norm. Okay, now I am starting to think that it might honestly be funny if you show up dressed exactly how she specified, but with just a neck full of pubes. But with my Horatio Seymour facial hair. And you're like, what is the tie too wide? I ran it by you. I don't understand why you're upset. The whole time you're just scratching your neck. I have a little comb going through my neck.

Oh, gross. You know what's great is he kept that facial hair his whole life. Like, we found pictures of him when he's old, and he still has the neck pubs. So, you know, you live by the neck pubs, you die by the neck pubs. You know who that reminds me of? Who? Guess. Seriously.

Let's see how aligned we are. Someone who has a very, very much a statement hairstyle and caught a lot of flack for it. Did they give it up? Not a chance in hell. They're still rocking it today, baby. I'm talking, of course, about DJ Polly D from Jersey Shore. That man is still gelled and wind-swept after all these years. He can rock it, though.

He looks good. You know, he's a good looking fella, but I just, there is something about that like, you know what? You're sticking by it. And that is a hell of a commitment, my dude. He's confident in himself. He knows who he is. I dig it. All right.

People might not like it, but that's just the way it is. All right, Kristen, are you ready to get into part four of Robert Smalls? I mean, it just seems like the logical progression. We talked about neck pubs. We talked about Polly D. and now we're going to do part four of Robert Smalls. But before we get into it, I have a mistake of shame. Oh, no.

Mistakes. Mistakes of shame. Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. What'd you do? So in the previous episode, I talked about a man named Octavius Caddo. Yeah. He was a black leader in Philadelphia who taught Robert Smalls how to read and write. Now, I usually look up how to pronounce names.

Oh. before we record, but I missed this one, and I wasn't sure how to say it. I was like, is it cato? I actually said it both ways in the episode. Were they both wrong? They were both wrong. Is it cato? No, it's cato.

Oh. Cato. Okay. Octavius Cato. So, in short, I really fucked up, and I have brought great shame to this podcast. I am sorry. This concludes another exciting segment of mistakes of shame.

How will you atone for these sins? I mean, I know you just shamed yourself on the podcast, but I'm just wondering, you know. What will I do? Yeah, yeah. Look, I'm already agreeing to shave my facial hair to match Horatio Seymors. You didn't agree to. You suggested it.

The people were demanding it like crazy. No one was demanding it. I think people were like, you know what, I'll leave the Patreon. I have been watching the numbers to see, just to see what's going on. And I am worried that some people are jumping ship. Somebody on our subreddit, R-slash-old-timey podcast, by the way, Photoshop my face onto Horatio Seymour. Oh, dear God.

So you get a little preview of what it might look like, and it is horrifying people. Okay. Wonderful. Yeah. You know, if you're looking to scare your kids this Halloween, show them that photo. Boy, you're really ahead of the game, aren't you? Halloween? Okay. I'm ready for this year to be over already. Oh, shit.

Anyway. Let's get into the episode. You know, Norm, just a few people do Nazi salutes, and all of a sudden you're ready for the year to be over. Boy. Can this year just end? Anyway, let me recap our last episode. Previously, on an old-timey podcast.

We learned that after escaping slavery by stealing a Confederate boat, Robert Smalls worked as a pilot for the year. U.S. Navy. In total, he took part in 17 combat operations and ascended to the rank of captain, a very rare honor for black men at that time. Ultimately, Robert Smalls would survive the American Civil War. Slavery was abolished and the Confederacy was defeated. Fun fact. Wow. Wow. Here are a few things that lasted longer than the Confederate states of America. Oh, this sounds like it's going to be bitchy. Beanie babies. Taco Bell's Doritos' Doritos' tacos, tacos, a can of tuna.

The Miami Dolphins Super Bowl drought, and my anxiety. Still going strong, baby. After all these years. So with the Civil War over, the United States looked to reunify the country and rebuild. Well, at least that was the plan anyway. It was an era known as Reconstruction, and boy, was it troubling. To begin, President Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. His replacement was Vice President Andrew Johnson, a native of Tennessee.

Would Andrew Johnson go easy on the South, or would he follow President Lincoln's reconstruction plan? Well, Johnson went totally off script. He issued thousands of pardons for former Confederates, and many of them were high-ranking officials. Then Johnson assigned provisional governors to the southern states, and those governors had no interest in providing equal rights to newly freed black people. When military commanders tried to intervene, Johnson had them removed. Well, Robert Smalls was not one to shy away from the moment. He stepped up to the plate in his hometown of Beaufort, South Carolina. Smalls fought for a new public school for black children.

He advocated for land distribution. He demanded suffrage for black men. Sorry, ladies. Eventually, Congress stepped in the turd that Andrew Johnson shat out on the carpet of the United States. My God. Oh, that was unnecessary. And they quickly grabbed the metaphorical bottle of resolve with urine destroyer and started scrubbing. I was not expecting it to be so vivid, but I do appreciate it.

I'm really trying to hammer home a point here. Congress dismantled the provisional governments in the southern states and called for new elections and constitutions, all enforced by the United States military. When it came time to select delegates in South Carolina, the people of Beaufort were loud and clear. Robert fucking Smalls. He was one of 124 delegates chosen to write the new state constitution, and it was pretty progressive for its time. It established desegregated public schools. Property rights for women. Black suffrage.

And legalized divorce. All these changes led to South Carolina officially rejoining the United States in July of 1868. Robert Small's next chapter in life was clear. He was a politician, and he wanted to help people. He began his career as a newly elected Republican in the South Carolina House of Representatives. Republicans controlled a whopping 110 of 124 seats in the state house, and they would certainly have their hands full. They battled new violent terrorist groups like the Ku Klux Klan.

They set up a public school system, the first of its kind, in South Carolina. They ensured people's civil rights were protected. Unfortunately, the legislature wasn't very effective. There were rampant accusations of corruption and bribery. And violence against black voters was on the rise. It threatened to dismantle everything Robert Smalls and others had worked so hard to secure. And that is where we will pick up our story today, Kristen. I am ready.

All right, Kristen, it's now the year 1870. Robert Smalls has been a member of the South Carolina, House of Representatives for two years. But things change quickly because the state senator from Beaufort vacated his seat because he was going to become a justice on the South Carolina State Supreme Court. Good for him. Yeah, great for him. Wait, was he a good dude or should I?

He was. Oh, okay, good. That meant his Senate seat needed to be filled. And Robert Smalls jumped at the opportunity. He easily secured the Republican nomination for the 1870 election. And it would certainly be an interesting election. In our last episode, I mentioned how Democrats in South Carolina were trying all sorts of things to regain power, including just asking black people to stop running for office and let the white man take over. Do you remember they wrote a letter?

I found it very amusing. Hey! Hey, we're better at this. So just stop, okay? Can you agree to stop? Well, you're not going to believe this. That didn't work. And so the Democrats had new ideas in 1870.

And they're like, okay, here's what we're going to do. We're going to call ourselves the Union Reform Party. What? Okay. And we're going to focus on reform because we need to get rid of all the corruption in government from the radical Republicans. Interesting. Yeah. This is like when companies.

like do a bunch of really bad shit. And then they're like, uh-uh, our new name is LilyPad. So don't give me. Uh-oh. Is that the name of an actual company? I have no idea. Well, anyway, you get the idea. We're the same shitty people, but now we have a new name.

So think of us as totally new people. We're on Facebook now. We're meta. It's different. Sure. Isn't it weird that we still use the word radical? Like, Republicans today say like the radical left or something? Uh-huh.

And like so back in this time they said the radical Republicans. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know, maybe I'm just a 90s kid, but when I hear the word radical, I'm like, oh, that's cool. That's far out, dude. The cool Republicans is what they're calling them. Far out, man. We got surfboards. Yeah.

Pookishel necklaces. Uh-huh. Hair slicked back. They're Polly D. It's Polly D basically. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So, yeah, the Democrats are going to call themselves the Union Reform Party now. But they also admitted, oh, we kind of need black people to vote for us because there's more black people in South Carolina than white people. And so, hey, let's say that we support black citizenship and we support black suffrage. We're all for it. Okay, but that's already happened. Yes, but they can be like, we're not going to take it away. We support it. We support you voting.

Right. But I'm just saying if you're really trying to woo people, which, boy, you've got an uphill battle because you're not the party that ended slavery. You're going to have to do a hell of a lot more than just, yeah, we'll also do what those other guys are doing. But maybe better. You got to offer everybody a Capri Sun or something. You know, you got a, I don't know, gift bags for everybody. I'm not sure.

Big butter. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said big butter. And I was like, well, I guess that'd be better than a little amount of butter. Butter. That's another great name for a product. It's butter but big. Just a big ass amount of butter. Available exclusively at Costco. We'll start at BJ's wholesale. Sure. Well, one way they could appeal to black voters would be to say like, hey, Republicans aren't doing enough for you because they're so corrupt. There's so much corruption going on in government. So we need to go in there and fix it. Well, Robert Small saw right through all of these tricks. Kristen. During his campaign, he urged the residents of Beaufort to not fall for the Union Reform Party. Smalls said they were a wolf in sheep's clothing. He was like, if they come to power,

they will strip away all of your rights. And a few people were like, yeah, but what about all that corruption stuff? Is that true? Robert Smalls was honest. He said that, yeah, there's definitely problems in the government. But he urged that the entire Republican Party should not be punished because of the actions of a few men who, quote, have prostituted their high official position. Goodness gracious. He told it like it was. That was certainly a better answer than other Republican candidates at the time, who said that the Republicans could, quote, reform themselves. I don't like that answer.

Well, no, it's kind of like big business is going to regulate itself. It never happens. Trickle down economics. I'm going to piss all over you. Okay. and you'll love it. I was digitizing your family home movies one time. Uh-huh.

And your dad, when you were like a baby, was talking to, like, your great-grandma. And your great-grandma, like, hated Reagan. Yeah. I think Reagan was president at the time. Yeah, my great-grandma was, she'd been a farmer her whole life, and she was a big Roosevelt Democrat. Yes. And she was like, ah, I hate Reagan, hate Reagan. And I hear your dad from the other side of the room, what's wrong?

You're not getting trickled on enough? Fucking smart ass. He's always been a smart ass. Oh, your day is great. How did my great grandma react to that? She was like, oh, out, out. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Well, election day in 1870 came. And Republicans overwhelmingly won their races, including Robert Smalls. He easily won the Senate seat. Well, yeah. Black voters had not been fooled by the Union Reform Party. after another election defeat, Democrats declared, Okay, everyone, yeah, that didn't work, so let's all go home and grab your white hoods. Grab the white hoods.

We're going back to violence and intimidation. Oh. Ku Klux Klan activity skyrocketed across the south. It was particularly bad in South Carolina, specifically the northwest area of South Carolina. It's known as the Piedmont region. And it was very active there because there was little to no military protection. In fact, the violence got so bad that Congress passed a series of laws called the Enforcement Acts. Most people called them the Ku Klux Klan Acts.

So, one law mandated that the federal government oversee federal elections and supervised local polling places. And then the other allowed the president to suspend habeas corpus and use the military to enforce free and fair elections. And President Ulysses S. Grant enforced it right away. He declared martial law in several counties of South Carolina's Piedmont region, where a clan activity was rampant. And then President Grant asked the newly formed Department of Justice to prosecute suspected KKK members. All right. Yeah. That was one of the very first jobs of the Department of Justice.

Oh. Protecting Black American civil rights. I actually didn't know the department was formed because of that. I didn't either. But man, how fun would it be to prosecute little KKK boys. Oh, lift up those hoods, honey. You go to prison. Well, you're not going to like this, Kristen.

Oh. I'm probably not going to like anything in this episode. I mean, it sounds great on paper, you know. Well, it sounds great everywhere. Yeah. It wasn't enough. Many white Southerners cried foul. They said that these acts were an overreach of federal power.

In fact, it seemed like more people were concerned with that than the KKK committing acts of terrorism. Well, yeah, because the same people who were saying this is overreach were also in their hoods as they said it. Probably. Many clan members went into hiding, waiting to return when the dust settled. What did you look at a camera like that for? I'm just letting the people know my frustrations. If I, I'm reading the room here. and I'm like, if I say something every time I'm annoyed by this story, we'll be here all goddamn day. Oh, we will.

So sometimes I'm just going to look at the camera, Norm. I'm just going to tell you right now, there's not a lot of positives in this episode. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm going to just ask you to sneak in a fart joke where you can then. Thank you. How about that? What if, after every piece of bad news, I added a fart sound?

Let's play with that. Meanwhile, Robert Smalls was now a state-s. Senator Kristen, and as a senator, he now had more power and influence. Unfortunately, nothing super exciting happened in his first term. Boring! Okay. Let me say a few things. He called for an investigation into a mining company that wasn't paying their fair share in royalties to use state land.

Okay. And the company eventually paid up. So, that's cool. He also helped pass a bill that required equal treatment of all citizens in public places. The problem was no one really enforced it. Sure. So that's not cool. Those accomplishments didn't really matter, though, because the biggest issue in South Carolina politics was still corruption.

I disagree. I think it was you hitting the table and knocking your chapstick all around. Oh, wow. So you think that was a bigger deal than corruption in South Carolina politics in the 1870s. Direct quote, you heard it here first. Please join the Norm Troopers. I also don't care about World War I. You know, what else?

You don't care about World War II. No, I do. Anyway, shut up. And by shut up, I mean, keep talking. You also think the Confederacy had some pretty good ideas. No, I do not. No. I'm going to make a soundbite of it because you did say it.

No. No. Yes, the biggest issue in South Carolina politics was corruption. And because Republicans controlled all the branches, of government, they were under intense scrutiny. Rallying calls for change and reform rang out across the state. Even some of Robert Small's buddies from the Civil War spoke up. He received a letter from one union commander that read, The ship of State of South Carolina is in stormy waters. The beacon lights ahead are honesty, purity, virtue, intelligence, the schoolhouse, and the church.

Keep her helm steady toward these, and soon the ship shall glide gently by the breakers into the peaceful waters of freedom. My goodness. Well, now there's... That's pretty flowery. Yeah, I mean, it's not going to fit well on a poster, but we get there. You condense it down, and it's basically hanging there, baby, do the right thing. I want that as a tattoo on my wrist. It would just cover my entire forearm.

Robert Smalls was kind of in a tough spot because, yeah, he was concerned about corruption in the government, but he couldn't upset the Republican Party because he enjoyed overwhelming support from them. Turning his back on the Republicans would be political suicide. So to kind of lower the temperature of everything, Robert Smalls and four other black legislators, announced a call to action to overhaul the Republican Party. They stressed honesty, integrity, and intelligence. But it was mostly lip service. There was nothing enforceable they could do. Right. And no one's going to come forward and be like, I'm anti-honesty and intelligence.

Exactly. The corruption issue got worse during the election of 1872. South Carolina residents were voting on a new governor, and the Republican Party's favorite choice was a guy named Franklin Moses Jr. Franklin Moses Jr. was interesting. Okay. He had served in the Confederate Army. Oh.

He also claimed that he was the one who lowered the U.S. flag at Fort Sumter when the Civil War broke out in 1861. Get the hell out of here, dude. He was like, yeah, you know when we took down that flag? That was me. Hey, you know this country we all live in? I tried to ruin it. I'd like to be your governor now. Yeah, I seceded.

Well, after the war, Franklin Moses Jr. seemed to do a 180. He joined the Republican Party. He supported Reconstruction. He thought federal troops in the South were good. He advocated for black suffrage and desegregation. Uh-huh. So he said, bullshit. We all know he's full of shit. Hang on.

I won't. And soon he was elected as Speaker of the House in South Carolina. Good God. He led the charge in forming black militia regiments to protect voting rights. He pushed for integration at South Carolina College. White Southerners hated him for this one simple trick. Compassion! They called him a scallywag,

which is a derogatory term for any white southerner who supported reconstruction. Oh, is that what that term stems from? Scaliwag, yep. For some reason, I thought it was a pirate term. Doesn't it seem kind of piracy? It is kind of pirity. I'm sure pirates said that, too. History Hose, let us know.

Origin of Scaliwagliug. It seems like, you know, swashbuckle, scallywag, they seem to go together. And isn't swashbuckle a pirate thing? Scali, well, okay, so there's scallywags. Oh, it's the same word. Scaliwag, it's spelled differently. Okay. Yeah, so pirates did say scallywag, a deceitful or unreliable person.

Okay, okay. Wait, so this man who I've been shitting on, did he truly do a true one-A? He truly did. He truly did. Oh, damn. Okay. He did some good stuff. He actually seemed like a great nominee for the Republican ticket.

Okay. Robert Smalls disagreed. Okay. Would you like to know why? Yeah. So while Franklin Moses Jr. did some pretty damn good things, he was very, very, very shady. He routinely accepted bribes. He submitted fraudulent pay certificates.

He misappropriated funds. Robert Smalls once said that Franklin Moses Jr. is, quote, known to every man in South Carolina to be a scoundrel. Okay. Okay. Then I take back the nice thing I kind of sort of almost said, because I'm back to my original opinion. This guy, it's whichever way the wind blows. This guy is just wanting to rise to the top, get paid whatever. When it looks like the Confederacy is going to be a thing, he wants to be at the top of the Confederacy. When the unions ruling things again, now he wants to be the governor. Fuck him. I hate him. Okay. Thank you. I think you doth protest too much, my dear. Why? You think I'm secretly in love with him? What do you say? I think you're being a little too harsh on Franklin Moses Jr.

Okay. Because I do think he did some very good things. White Southerners like shat all over him and he got a reputation as being the worst governor in South Carolina's history. Spoiler Lord, he does win the governor race. Sorry to spoil that. But just like based on what I read about him and what some other governors did, I'm like, no, this guy was not the worst governor. Yeah, he was corrupt as fuck, it sounds like. Yeah.

Some of the stuff he did for black citizens of South Carolina was very, very good. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I understand that. You're saying he's just taking advantage of situations for his own game. Yeah. I just, I think we all know people like this.

It's like whatever's popular. they're like, yeah, that's my opinion too. And they go with it. And if what's popular at the moment is a good thing, like, hey, how about equality? How about people don't have to be worried about getting murdered on the way to the voting booth? Then good. I actually think that was a big thing with abolitionists pre-Civil War. It kind of became a trendy thing to be an abolitionist in the North.

Anyway, so Robert Small did not want him to be the nominee because he was like, look, if we want to get past all these bribery and corruption accusations, we can't nominate Franklin Moses Jr. That's a good point. Okay. Robert Smalls supported Judge Samuel Melton. He was a South Carolina native. He was a former Confederate. But after the war, he supported black suffrage and he stressed integrity at the ballot box.

Robert Smalls thought Samuel Melton was an honest and good man. He could help root out corruption and he could turn around the image of the Republican Party. but the Republican Party said Hell no to the no no now now why did other people not like him It's not that they didn't like him

Yeah They were just like no we want Franklin Moses Jr. I'm sure a big reason was A lot of these members of the Republican Party were getting some pretty sweet kickbacks from Franklin Moses Jr. And they were like well hell yeah We want him to be governor

Yeah okay I got you So they officially chose Franklin Moses as the nominee. Well, some members of the Republican Party did not like that. They were outraged at the selection. And so they split off into a new party. No, no, this is how we ruin it all. The Reform Republican Party.

And they chose their own candidate for governor. I don't even know who it was. I didn't bother looking it up because they lost bigly. Anyway, Robert Smalls was not happy about the nomination of Franklin Moses Jr. he thought forming a new party was not a good idea. He refused to join the reform Republicans. But what about the Democrats? What kind of marketing tools are they going to try this time, Kristen? Well, they had a new name again. Now the Democrats were called the Conservatives. For the 1872 election, the Democrats, uh, the conservatives considered the governor race a lost cause.

They weren't even going to like put much effort into that. Instead, they were like, hey, let's focus on smaller local elections. Particularly, let's look at those ones in the northwest part of the state, the Piedmont region. It's where the KKK had been running rampant. And you know what? That strategy worked really well for them. Here's what kills me about how you've talked to me so far this episode is I'm sitting here thinking, that is smart.

I hate it, but it is smart. But then you're just going to turn that into a sound bite of me being like, yeah, the KKK, they had some ideas. I could even edit it for use to say, the KKK is smart. No. God damn. Don't worry. I won't do that.

There are enough people out there who are actually saying that bullshit. You're right. So the election of 1872, Republicans overwhelmingly won once again. President Ulysses S. Grant won re-election. Franklin Moses Jr. won the governor race. Robert Smalls won his reelection for state Senate. And the Republican is still controlled all branches of government and South Carolina. Carolina. But now you have some serious cracks in the foundation. State efforts to curb violence and

intimidation were failing. Federal efforts to curb violence and intimidation were failing. Democrats were gaining control of local governments in South Carolina and wrecking havoc. Reeking havoc or is it wrecking havoc? What is it? Reeking. Reeking. They were doing both. They came in like a reeking ball. That's right. And nationwide, Republican support for black people's rights was deteriorating. Many rich aristocratic abolitionists who had rallied against slavery were finally confronted with the plight of poor black people after the Civil War. And they were like, ooh, well, you know, I'm socially liberal, but I'm actually fiscally conservative.

So I do acknowledge that there are problems, but I actually don't think we should do anything about it. it. Was it, uh, now people are moving to my neighborhood kind of thing? Is that what you're saying to me? It's all money. It's the economy. Okay. I think, again, like I mentioned earlier, it was fashion and trendy to support the end of slavery and then it happens. And, you know, poor black Southerners are like, okay, we're, we're no longer enslaved, but we need help. Right. And these rich aristocratic abolitionists are like, ooh, that costs money. And it's going to come out of my pocket.

And then, yeah, a lot of black Southerners migrate to the north for opportunities in bigger cities. And they're confronted face to face. And yeah, those aristocratic people are like, ooh, I don't like this one bit. Okay, this is interesting because I'm thinking of the psychology of this. And as a self-righteous person myself, it's like, oh, yeah. other people are doing bad things. I don't agree with it. And here's my pin to demonstrate that I am part of the good group here.

Yes. But yeah. Then government funding. Then, yeah, it just puts all that to the test. Are you really a kind-hearted person? Do you really give a shit? Yes. Or did you just want to wear the button?

Yeah. And some historians have. that argument that like a lot of these abolitionists in the north it was all they never cared they never cared it was all just a trendy cool thing to do yeah okay because then when it came time to actually help they're like ooh uh i don't think so the following year economic concerns grew worse with the panic of 1873 you know about the panic of 1873 christin no but using context clues it sounds pretty bad well let me tell you about it christin The stock market in Europe crashed.

Oh. And European banks had all these railroad bonds from the United States. Uh-oh. And so they started selling all of them. Yep. And no one wanted to buy them. So railroad companies went bankrupt. And then banks started going bankrupt.

And people started freaking out. They ran to their banks. They were like, ah, I need all my money. Mm-hmm. The panic hit Robert Smallstown of Beaufort, South Carolina, hard. Cotton markets collapsed. Land cultivation fell to pre-civil War levels. Small black farmers struggled to raise money to plant new crops. Many fell into insurmountable

debt. And this situation led to a big surge in sharecropping. Okay. Wealthy white landowners portioned out plots of land to poor black and white families in exchange for a share of their crops. And oh, what's that? You need to purchase seeds or some new equipment? Well, hey, I'll extend you a line of credit with a low, low interest rate of 70% a year. Is that a real figure? 70%. Some people charged these sharecroppers.

I mean, you might as well call them enslaved at that point. It was slavery under another name. Yeah. Robert Smalls did what he could to help his constituents. He introduced bills to incorporate a railroad company and a cotton company in Buford, which could help bring jobs in economic growth. He petitioned for the United States Navy to establish a permanent Navy yard in nearby Port Royal, where he had conducted many of his wartime exploits. Robert Smalls also took on corruption. He launched an investigation into $1.2 million of pay orders from the state treasury that seemed suspicious.

That's a huge figure back in the day. Yeah, adjusted for inflation, that would be – I didn't actually adjust it for inflation. I was going to say – you're acting like you can do that in your head. Well, I've done so much research during this series. I've kind of getting an idea of what... Folks, he broke his back for you. Come on. I did.

$31 million. Holy. But Robert Smalls was just one man. The economy and calls for reform were dominating the political landscape. Democrats pounced on all of these issues. They were like, you see, radical Republican reconstruction is a total failure. Our economy sucks. The corruption is rampant.

and look at these ridiculous expenditures in government. In 1873, South Carolina paid $331,000 for printing expenses. That's $60,000 more than the years of 1850 to 1859 combined. Outrageous! I mean, that is pretty outrageous. Very expensive. But Robert Smalls and other Republican leaders argued that that comparison was not fair at all. Because South Carolina was just not the same state as it was before the Civil War.

The government had way more responsibilities now to take care of people. Oh, that's true. Before the Civil War, pretty much everything was privatized. So naturally, after the Civil War, costs have gone way up. Well, and you have more citizens. Yes. Like, literally, you have more citizens. Yes, you do, yeah.

But people didn't seem to care anymore. Nationwide, the issue no longer seemed to be the rights of black Americans. It was all about the economy. This allowed violence and intimidation to grow throughout the South. Democratic governments took over states like Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Louisiana, Alabama. In South Carolina and in the United States as a whole, Republican control was hanging on by a thread. And in 1874, that thread snapped. That year, Democrats won 92 House seats in the election, which gave them a majority.

for the first time in 18 years. I think to this day that is the largest flip in the House of Representatives ever. Yeah, that's wild. That's wild. Okay. Pause for a question. Yes. So last week we talked a little bit about like what if Lincoln hadn't been assassinated?

What if reconstruction had gone through as it was intended? So my question now, after hearing about this economic collapse and all that, Do you think we would have had these economic problems if reconstruction had been rolled out as Lincoln intended it? Ooh, that is a very tough question that I don't think I'm prepared to answer. Well, you're the only other person in this room, sir. Well, um... Because, I mean, it obviously wouldn't have been perfect because you can't help that Europe has a collapse, you know, you can't help so many major factors. I don't know.

I definitely think if Lincoln was not assassinated, he would have stuck to his guns and carried through with reconstruction. Because you have to understand Ulysses S. Grant did support reconstruction, but he also really kind of turned more moderate as it went on. And I don't think Lincoln would have done that. Yeah. Lincoln was very like, I have to do what I think is right, even if it's not popular. And I have to implement it in a way that won't upset the entire country. And by the time Ulysses as Grant took over, I think you could argue that time had passed. We talked last week about the importance of that window. You've got this window of opportunity to do this thing.

and if it passes because Andrew Johnson took a giant dukey on the Senate floor wherever, you know. Sounds like he was, that is the worst sound on that soundboard. Well, you can blame Andrew Johnson. Sounds like he was taking dukeys everywhere. He shat all over the carpet of the United States. Oh, well, that really covers it. Yes. And the carpetbaggers were like, what's this?

Just using some new terms I've learned. Yeah, you're learning a lot here. Yeah, I do agree with that, actually. I think some of the stuff Andrew Johnson did right after the Civil War was really hard to correct. Right. The damage had been done. Okay, continue. Okay.

So the House now had 180 Democrat legislators. 107 of them were Southern. 80 of those Southern men were Confederate veterans. And 35 of those Confederate veterans were former generals. in a Confederacy. Dear God. So what do you do? I was about to say something terrible.

What are you going to say? Go back in time with a machine gun and mow them down? No, I was honestly, my honest gut reaction, oh, just give up and leave, which I know is terrible and not an option. But that was my first thing. Let's just leave. Like, is there a back door? Could I just sneak out of that?

Yeah, let's just go to these poor black farmers. remembers me like, why don't you just leave? Norm, that's not what I'm actually saying. I'm just telling you my immediate gut reaction. Have you thought about moving maybe? Listen, my reaction to that scenario is the same as every horror movie I've ever seen where I'm always like, I'd just off myself. Yeah.

I would. I would. Like the second some dude in a mask is murdering all my friends, I'm not going to be like, I'll be the brave one to survive. Or like the zombie apocalypse. You wouldn't try to fight your way out? No! No!

Man. Are you kidding me? I'd be like, here's... You just roll over and die. I'd be like, here's one, he's not getting. That'll teach him. Yeah. Maybe I'd even leave a note.

Too late, ha-ha. And the zombies are still going to eat your brain. Yeah, I won't know anything about it. It'll be fresh. Crack open that skull. You already left a hole for him if you shot yourself in the head. Oh, good God. traumatized people.

They could suck it out like a coconut. Okay, that's disgusting. Jeez. This podcast is nasty. Nasty. Okay, well, if you're Robert Smalls, here's what you do. You get your ass elected to the U.S. House of Representatives, and you fight back. Okay, well, that's, yeah, that's what a hero does.

All right. You see, South Carolina had recently done some redistricting. And Robert Small's hometown was now in a brand new district, which meant there was a new seat up for grabs in the U.S. House of Representatives. This district, which included Buford and surrounding counties, had a majority black residents, heavy gala population, and Robert Smalls won his election easily against his Democratic opponent. 17,800 votes against 4,000.

Oh, wow. He smacked his ass around. It was official. Robert Smalls was heading to Washington, D.C., but before he left, he got quite a surprise when he was. was served papers. Oh. He was being sued.

Hell, looked themselves in the mirror and said, let's go to court. It was the former owner of Robert Small's home at 511 Bridge Street. No, bitch, you didn't pay taxes. Sorry. It was a man named William de Treville. William de Treville had owned the house when the American Civil War broke out. But oops, he failed to pay his property taxes, and that's when Robert Smalls bought it at auction legally. We learned about that in part two of our series. We sure did. We started a reality TV show.

All we need is a time machine and then we're just going to start it up. It's going to be great. Just a minor obstacle. Get a time machine. Well, William de Treville thought otherwise, Kristen. He argued that Robert Small's claim to the house was invalid because it was, quote, improperly issued. How? Basically, the government didn't have the authority to take his property during the war. Yes, it did. Well, he looked Robert Smalls in the eye and said... No, I'm not saying it because I'm angry about it. Let's go to court.

Oh, wait, wait, wait a second. Let's go to court. How about that? Okay. Makes it a little funny. So, what do you think? Will Robert Smalls get to keep his home, Kristen? I mean, probably not, because you've warned me that this episode is terrible.

Well, he did get to keep his house. Oh, really? The district court ruled in Robert Small's. Oh, wait, but this guy appeals, right? He sure does. William DeTrieveal was not happy. So he appealed the ruling all the way up to the Supreme Court. You didn't go to the appellate court? It went to the Supreme Court.

Okay. But it would be a while before the Supreme Court heard the case. What happened? Stay tuned, history hose. I'd rather not. So while Robert Smalls dealt with that lawsuit, he got some more news. his former enslaver and probably his father, Henry McKee, passed away. The American Civil War had not been kind to the McKees.

They had lost pretty much everything. It's not funny. It's a little funny. Robert Smalls decided to reach out to the McKee family and offer support. He invited Henry McKee's widow, Jane McKee, and their children, to come to Beaufort and stay as guests in his home. He even covered their railroad expenses. Wow. The McKee's accept.

the invitation and returned to their former home, now owned by Robert Smalls. Oh my God, how is this not a movie? Just this. Just this scene alone? I'd pay anything to see the real thing. Yeah. It was kind of awkward. That's why I want to see it. The McKees refused to eat at the same table as Robert Smalls. Oh, did you, bitches? You sure liked his money when it took you on the railroad on down there. They said it was a Southern traditions. Robert Smalls was like, whatever, and he served them at a separate table. Why did Robert Smalls host the McKees? Was it for political gain? Trying to appeal to white southerners by not holding a grudge for his enslavement? One newspaper reported that, quote,

The kindness of Smalls seems to have made a profound impression in his favor. Was he just being nice to his former enslavers? Or was it further proof that Henry McKee was his father and he just wanted to be supportive. I'm going to go with all of the above. Kristen, your thoughts. Absolutely all of the above. I think so too. But I think the thing that people miss when they're listing potential reasons is they're not putting themselves in his shoes. And I know it's impossible to do, but also, honest to God, how good would this feel? How good would this feel? you have accomplished more than anyone could have possibly dreamed. And on top of it, you are in your former enslaver's home.

You are in a better financial position than they are. And you're in a position to help them out. Real power move. In order to accept that help, they have to come to what is now your home. See how you've decorated it. Oopts, you put up wallpaper at the living room and they hate it, but they can't see a thing about it. And do they get to stay in the primary bedroom? No, they don't, because they don't own it.

I mean, it's delicious. And it's also smart politically. It's also a very nice act of charity. It's all those other things. Maybe there's some true affection there too. but the thing I wish people would get on board with is that it's fucking delicious. Listen, as someone who runs on spite and crystal level, yes, I don't understand how people don't get this.

Yeah, this is like probably the greatest feeling I could ever feel. You know what this is? What? Kill them with kindness. This would literally kill a person. This does really match up with kill them with kindness. Oh, you can't eat at my lovely dining. room table. You can't consume the food that has been prepared here that is being offered to you

at no charge. Oh, great. I've got some TV trays that I bought at Walmart. They're out back. We'll dust them off real good for you. And you can sit in my shittiest room. My shittiest room. Oh, man. You just kill for a time machine, wouldn't you? I mean, I can't be the only one who, thinks that this would be truly amazing. I used to love, you know, on that old show, trading spaces where, you know, neighbors would be like, I'm going to decorate your living room and they'd be like, cool, I'm going to decorate yours. And even though everyone signs up for it, and even though, like, we all know the deal, other people get to choose, I loved the moments where people walked in there, were like,

oh, my God, what the hell did you do? And I'm just thinking, if I loved that, what's a bigger word than, love. Whatever word that is, is how I'd feel about this. Man. Well, Kristen, believe it or not, this would not be the last time Robert Smalls would help the McKees. Stay tuned. Yeah. So, in December of 1875, Robert Smalls arrived in Washington, D.C. for the first session of the 44th Congress of the United States of America. But he wasn't alone. He brought along his daughter, 17-year-old Elizabeth Lydia Smalls. She served as his clerk. Robert's wife, Hannah, decided to stay in Buford to care for Robert's mother, Lydia.

It wasn't going to be easy work. The Republican Party seemed divided on many issues. The economy, tariffs, civil rights, and their priorities were shifting away from actual problems and more towards party growth. Money was becoming a major influence in politics. Money and politics? Boy, I sure hope that doesn't come back to bite us. Man. It is gross hearing this story because so much doesn't change, including, like, this focus on the economy.

And of course, we all have to focus on the economy. But for it to be kind of the only issue. Oh, well, even the cause of corruption. Yeah. The government is corrupt and only we can fix it. Mm-hmm. Time is a flat circle. Robert Smalls wasted no time.

He had probably the busiest political session of his entire career. And here are the highlights. First, he was assigned to the Agriculture Committee, an important position that would help Robert advocate for the poor farmers in Beaufort. Oh, that's good. He wrote up a bill requesting funds for Beaufort, South Carolina to build a customs house, a post office, and other public buildings. Okay, we like letters.

He worked on a joint resolution for the federal government to sell confiscated lands in South Carolina, which had been neglected for years. This allowed poor farmers to purchase that land at a low cost. Love it. He demanded that the federal government reimbursed the state of South Carolina for using Charleston's Military Academy, the Citadel. Really? Yes. He requested that the U.S. Navy make improvements to Port Royal, which had been neglected since the war ended. The proposition passed.

Oh. Oh, I was still dancing. Well, we're putting an end to that. That's probably good. Okay, those were the highlights. Now here's the lowlights. Oh, okay. In the summer of 1876, Congress was discussing a bill to reduce and restructure the army.

One of the provisions in the bill said that, quote, enlisted men in certain regiments shall be colored men. Robert Smalls wanted that provision removed. Yeah. Because he said it's segregated. segregated the army and allowed white officers to refuse to enlist black soldiers. So Robert Smalls wanted to add the provision, no distinction whatever shall be made on account of race or color.

That provision was denied. But the toughest battle for Robert Smalls by far was making sure that federal troops remained in South Carolina. Because back home, the violence was really getting out of hand. Right. reforming rifle clubs, organized armed groups that seemed innocent on paper. No, it didn't. That sounds terrifying. But in reality, we're violent and used for intimidation purposes. Not so fun fact.

Oh, no, my brains. They were called rifle clubs because the South Carolina legislature actually banned any armed groups other than the militia. So the Democrats were like, oh, we're not a militia. This is a rifle club. It's like a social club. And we welcome all types of guns. Long guns. Short guns.

Thick guns. We call them girthy guns. Stop it. Skinny guns. Guns that hook a little to the left. Stop it. Guns that hook a little to the right. And you know, we all get together every Thursday night.

We stand in a semicircle. We talk about our guns. We stroke our guns. And then we shoot them. Norman. I'm about to bust. If only it had just been a gun circle jerk. If only.

So, yeah, calm down, Kristen. These rifle clubs are totally innocent. We're a social club. This is just the KKK minus the hoods, am I right? I mean, that's what's happening. Basically. Okay. These rifle clubs were usually led by former Confederate officers, and they routinely clashed with the state militia.

They stole weapons from the militia, and tensions came to a boiling point on July 4, 1876, Independence Day. In a small town called Hamburg, South Carolina. Sounds cute. German. Of course. Majority of the residents were black. A black militia regiment was conducting drills in the town when two white men appeared and demanded to pass through. And an argument broke out. The militia claimed the white dudes were interrupting their drills. The white dudes claimed the black militia regiment heckled them and were blocking a quote, public highway. So the two white dudes filed a complaint with the local judge. Who agreed to hear the case? A trial date was set for July 8th. Rifle Club leaders were thrilled about this because this had been premeditated. They had been waiting for an

excuse to provoke a riot. And that is exactly what happened. On the day of the trial, hundreds of white men from the rifle club showed up in Hamburg demanding justice, and they severely outnumbered the local black militia regiment. The white men demanded, the militia dropped their weapons. They refused, and so a gunfight broke out. Outnumbered the Black Militia Regiment retreated to the barracks. But then the Rifle Club showed up with a fucking cannon and more men. Eventually, the Black Militia Regiment surrendered.

About 25 soldiers. The Rifle Club placed five men in a ring formation, then walked around in a circle and killed them one by one. Oh, my God. The rest of the militia ran as men took shots at them. This was known as the Hamburg Massacre. Hamburg no longer exists, by the way. It's a ghost town.

Many residents fled after the massacre. Not so fun fact. Oh, no, my brain. One of the men that took part in that massacre was a guy named Benjamin Tillman, and he would go on to become the governor of South Carolina and a senator. Dear God. Benjamin Tillman openly bragged about the massacre. He said, quote, as white men, we are not sorry for it, and we do not propose to apologize for anything we have done in connection with it.

Today, the South Carolina State Capitol Building has a big old statue of Benjamin Tillman. Are you serious? I'm serious. Here's how naive I am. When you said today they have a statue, even with all we've covered with the Mount Rush, I was like, well, at least there's a plaque. At least there's and it's to this fucker. For Benjamin Tillman. Also, Clemson University has a building named after Benjamin Tillman.

Isn't that wonderful? That makes me sick. Are you ready for some more bullshit? Go ahead. For a long time, there was a monument for the Hamburg Massacre. Are you serious? Hang on. It was a monument to the one white man that was killed in that skirmish.

Okay. It's the United States. daughters of the Confederacy that did that, right? Oh, oh yeah, they put up that monument. Those fucking bitches, they deserve their own series where I roast every one of their little asses. It was like for this brave man who defended his race or something like that. Well, it's so brave to show up with hundreds of your friends, armed to the nines with a cannon, and then terrorize 25 people. How brave?

Like, here's what blows my mind even more. In 2020, a petition started to rename that building in Clemson University. It's called Tillman Hall. Yeah. In 2020, and they still are thinking about it. And it's like, I don't know what there is to think about. It's because they're not thinking about it. It's frustrating.

It's like, this is, we don't, I don't want to get into a whole thing. Get into it. We'll cut it if you want to cut it. We need to decide as a society what we want to memorialize. It needs to represent who we are today. And I don't think we want people like Benjamin Tillman representing what we are about today, a man that openly bragged about mass occurring innocent black people. I think you're wrong.

Okay. That's my hope that as a society we wouldn't glorify somebody like that. Well, yeah, yeah, that would be my hope, too. But, like, we've talked about time as kind of a flat circle. Now I'm getting doom and gloom. Uh-oh. I also wonder, like, okay, if it's seen as, oh, if we change anything, this is a race issue, this is controversial, blah, blah, blah, you know, they're thinking we're going to change it from Tillman to the Robert Smalls building. What if we just were like, hey, the idea you?

here is we take down Tillman, okay, and we name it the David Poop building. David Poop. Sure. But Davy Dunks. Sure. The Dr. Hubert Montgomery residency. And then it's offensive to anyone who doesn't have a 12-year-old sense of humor, but at the end of the day, are we going to be that mad about it?

The Hugh Jazz Concert Hall. I laughed too hard at that, but that would be a great one for a concert hall. You jazz. Yeah, I just, when I heard that, like, they had statues of this man. Yeah, it's disgusting. And this building's named after. I'm just like, why? Surely we can find somebody better than this.

Or, surely. Find no one. Make up a man. His name is David Poop. There's plenty of great South Carolinians out there. I don't know. I just, I was grossed out that, like, there's a statue of this man. Yeah, it's nasty.

Ugh. Is it an ugly? statue because sometimes that's fun when it's at least a bad poorly done statue. I didn't get a close look at it, but I don't know. It just makes me sad. It is sad. Yeah. Robert Smalls and other black South Carolina legislators demanded an investigation into the incident, which actually did eventually happen. Sadly, no one was ever prosecuted for the Hamburg massacre. That's awful. Yeah. And by the way, this is not an isolated incident. There were so, many things happening around the South just like this.

This is just one of many examples. Well, if you want to scare the shit out of people and make sure they don't rise up, like, I can't think of a more effective way to do it. I mean, Hamburg became a ghost town after that. Scared the fuck out of people. Well, that's kind of what I was saying. Like, what I would do in this situation, don't have to tell me twice. I am gone.

Yeah. I am gone. The Democrats of South Carolina saw the event. as proof that they no longer needed to compromise with Republicans. Well, yeah, if you're just going to murder people. Yeah. There was no more trying to appeal to the black voter. It was a full-on assault to return white people back to power in the South.

Democrats campaigned across the state with words like redemption, restoration. Violence was seen as patriotism. Rifle Club members began wearing red uniforms, earning the nickname red shirts. He seemed a little disturbed. This is just really gross. The Democrats declared that every voter, quote, must feel honor bound to control a vote of at least one Negro by intimidation, purchase, keeping him away,

or as each individual may determine how he may best accomplish it. Meanwhile, the United States Congress was considering redeploying federal troops from South Carolina to the Texas-Mexico border. Robert Smalls implored his colleagues to support his amendment that no troops could be removed from South Carolina. On the floor of the House, Smalls read a letter from a constituent on the Hamburg Massacre. A Democrat from Ohio named Samuel Cox stood up and said, You know, this all sounds pretty dramatic.

Who wrote this report anyway? How can we trust it? More Democrats soon shouted, demanding the name of the author. Robert Smalls refused to give it up, saying, I will say to the gentleman, if he is desirous that the name shall be given in order to have another Negro killed, he will not get it from me. Wow. The chamber erupted in applause. Yeah.

Samuel Cox shouted back, saying, okay, Smalls, you vouch for this author. But who will vouch for you? Robert Smalls replied back, quote, a majority of 13,000, the number of South Carolina residents. who voted him into Congress. The chamber once again erupted into applause. Yeah. And Robert Small's amendment to keep federal troops in South Carolina passed. Wow.

It was a pivotal moment in his political career. He held his own against an antagonistic Democrat majority. One friend wrote that Robert Smalls, quote, never made prolonged speeches, but was excellent in repartee. That's an old-timey word for quick, witty banter. I think we should bring it back. I think... We have some repartee on this podcast.

I was going to say, I think I bring it back every time I open my mouth. I'm bringing repartee back. You're up. Those federal troops were badly needed because the 1876 elections were coming up, Kristen, and redshirt groups kept growing in South Carolina. There were now 200 more rifle clubs around the state. Despite the fact that these clubs were clearly illegal, the state militia lacked the manpower to contain the state.

them all. And when the state legislature banned the rifle clubs, they reformed as the Allendale mounted baseball club. What? The first Baptist church sewing club. Yeah. Ooh. Same game, different name. I had no idea about any of this. Just you wait. I knew the KKK. That was like the extent of it. I didn't know about like all these other or organizations. Yeah. These red shirts started showing up to Republican rallies. They heckled, interrupted, intimidated politicians and voters.

In August of 1876, Robert Smalls came face to face with the red shirts. He was on the campaign trail in Edgefield, South Carolina, when a large group of mounted red shirts showed up, firing guns into the air and whooping and yelling. They surrounded the speaking stage, and they blocked off 1,500 black residents. who came to the event. Then the red shirts demanded that the Republicans allow the Democrats to speak at the rally

for the same amount of time, even though this was clearly a Republican event. A rifle club leader yelled out to Robert Smalls, accusing him of talking shit in Congress about the massacre in Hamburg. Talking shit or just saying that it happened? What the hell does that mean? The rifle club leader was like,

you accuse me of being in the KKK, and I'm not. I'm in the rifle club, which is totally different. I'm actually in the rifle club. Red shirts began shouting, kill the damn son of a bitch. Kill the damn N-word. Robert Smalls and other Republican candidates soon abandoned the rally

and returned to the train station. A reporter at the scene commented that the red shirts, quote, could only be regarded as a revolutionary army. But in South Carolina, they are called reformers. That's an interesting framing. But Democrats didn't stop with rifle clubs. Employers fired black people from their jobs or refused to rent land to them if they supported the Republican Party. Black communities tried to fight back, but they lacked funding and organization to put up much of a fight.

National support for the struggle was waning too. South Carolina was one of only three states that was still considered in Reconstruction. And both presidential candidates, Republican Rutherford B. Hayes, and Democratic, Samuel Tilden called for reconciliation and reform. Election Day in 1876 came. Federal troops were in South Carolina to keep the peace, but they weren't able to fix the fraud. In one county, 9,289 people voted, but only 7,122 people were eligible to vote. The governor race was razor thin. The Republican nominee was current governor, Daniel Chamberlain. The Democratic nominee was Wade Hampton, a former Confederate lieutenant general.

Both men claimed victory in that election. Chamberlain appealed to the state election commission. Who agreed that, yeah, there was definitely fraud, and so they certified the Republican Daniel Chamberlain as the winner. But Wade Hampton was like, no-uh, I'm governor. And then he started making moves like he was the governor. the situation was untenable and would eventually have to be settled by the federal government. Despite fraud from the opposition, Robert Smalls managed to win re-election against his Democratic opponent, George Tillman, but only barely. Robert Smalls received 19,954 votes. George Tillman received 18,516 votes. He'd won his last election by 13,000 votes.

Yeah. Now he won it by barely 1,000. George Toeming claimed voter fraud and contested the results to Congress. More on that later. Now let's talk about the presidential race between Republican Rutherford B. Hayes and Democrat Samuel Tilden. That was too close to call. Initially, it looked like Samuel Tilden had won both the popular vote and the electoral vote. But Republicans challenged the results from three key.

states claiming voter fraud and suppression. And wouldn't you know it, Kristen, it was those three states that were still under reconstruction. Louisiana, Florida, and South Carolina. Okay. So how do you solve this? The Constitution says that in this situation, quote, the votes shall be counted, but it doesn't say who counts the votes. Also, if there's voter suppression, how do you fix that? I mean, you'd almost have to do it again, but that seems nuts. Both parties did not trust each other to count the votes. So President Ulysses S. Grant and Congress approved a bipartisan electoral commission, which was made up of 15 people. Five were from the House of Representatives, five were from the Senate, and five were Supreme Court justices.

Okay. And of those 15 people, seven were Democratic. Democrats, seven were Republicans, one was independent. The commission examined the votes from South Carolina, from Louisiana, from Florida, and they threw out any that they deemed fraudulent. And ultimately, the commission decided that Republican Rutherford B. Hayes had won the election. This is how close it was. Samuel Tilden needed one electoral vote to win the election.

One. Wow. Rutherford B. Hayes needed 20. He had to win every single state that was in discussion. This is wild because Rutherford B. Hayes, okay, all I know about him is his name sounds cool. And that still holds up after hearing all this. I had no idea how exciting this presidential election was. Oh, it was.

That is wild. It's also the death knell for reconstruction. Oh, right. Democrats went fucking apeshit when they announced Rutherford B. Hayes was the winner. What the fuck? They threatened endless filibusters to delay certification of the election. They promised to make Rutherford B. Hayes' life a living hell if he was elected. And he was like, too bad. I've got the coolest name you've ever heard.

Too bad, bitches. My name's Rutherford. It's not just Rutherford. It's Rutherford B. Hayes. The name is Hayes. Rutherford B. Hayes. What about Paddington? That's a cool name. Give me the full name.

Paddington. Are you thinking about the bear? Yeah, obviously. I'm sorry. Paddington Huxstable. Okay, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. Honestly, I love the name Hubert Montgomery.

Well, we all do. I wonder how he's doing. Our good friend and friend of the show, Dr. Hubert Montgomery. If only he was in this room with me right now, I'd ask him. But he's definitely not. He's not. Because he always wears a hat. And a mustache. Okay, so Democrats are like, you know.

I have to interject. Yes. Okay, so as you know, I took a trip down to Florida to visit my cousins this past weekend. I went with Kyla and my mom. Yeah. And a little feedback they gave me on the show. They both love the sound bite of. the parrot saying, what the fuck?

What the fuck? And they started doing it in the line to line up for our little southwest flight. They were going, what the fuck? Obviously, whispering because we're polite Midwestern gals. But still, we were pretty happy about it. So you're saying it's a hit. It's a hit. If my mother-in-law likes it, I'm keeping it. Okay, so behind the scenes, they struck a deal.

The Democrats were like, okay, we will support Rutherford B. Hayes as the new president of the United States. But you must withdraw federal troops from Florida, from Louisiana, and from South Carolina. And you must certify any Democratic politicians running in contested states, like that governor race in South Carolina, where both men claimed victory. This deal is known as the compromise of 1877. There are no written records of this deal, but most historians believe that is exactly what happened. Okay, I have a question then. Okay.

Okay. We know about Rutherford because we all love his name. What was the other fellow's name? Samuel Tilden. Samuel Tilden. Do you think that ironically, things would have been better under him because there would not have been this compromise? Or do you think it would have been?

Oh, Samuel Tilden would have withdrew, withdrawn troops immediately. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There was no saving reconstruction. now. Okay. Yeah. Robert Smalls and other black congressmen met with President Hayes to try and convince him to keep troops in South Carolina. They argued that without federal troops, the Democratic Party would be in full swing in South Carolina and completely wipe out any progress made from reconstruction. People's lives were at risk. Right. President Hayes was like, thank you for your feedback. And then he withdrew federal troops from South Carolina. President Hayes also certified that Democrat Wade Hampton was the legitimate governor of South Carolina, and Republican Daniel Chamberlain was removed. In effect, Reconstruction was now dead.

Democrats took back complete control of all branches of government in South Carolina. Federal troops were gone. White Republicans in the state were like, And just like that, I left everything. I dropped out of high school. See ya. I said goodbye to my girlfriend. For you.

And I left my family. Play ya. Is that from South Park? Yeah. Yeah, white Republicans left South Carolina because they could afford it. Yeah. I said, ooh, it's going to get bad for me down here. See ya.

Robert Smalls spoke out against the rampant election fraud. He contended that the new governor, Wade Hampton, could not have won that election without fraud. He cried out that the Democratic Party's action. were designed to, quote, reduce the Negro to a condition of political dependence upon the former slaveholders. And Robert Smalls was right because South Carolina Democrats wasted no time restoring the status quo. Black people with debt were forced to work it off. Black people without jobs were jailed for idleness.

Oh. Prisoners were hired out to companies for cheap labor. Okay, there we go. The Democrats also reorganized voting process. precincts, forcing black voters to travel miles just to vote. They implemented a two-box voting system, local and state votes in one box, federal votes in another box. If a vote was placed in the wrong box, it was automatically thrown out. Election workers used their own discretion on who they helped. Spoiler alert, they usually didn't help black voters. But that's not all. Democrats

were also out for revenge. The South Carolina House created a committee to investigate fraud during the Republican administrations. And if you're wondering, I wonder if they're going to investigate all that election fraud that just happened. No, they impeached Black State Supreme Court Justice Jonathan Wright. The reason? Drunkenness. It's funny, I read about that his impeachment, they like could not find anything on him. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like it. Nothing. So that's what they got him for. He was drunk one time. Black State Treasurer Francis Cardozo was forced to resign. And then they charged him with fraud. He spent the next two years in jail before being pardoned and leaving the state for good. Wow. And then there was Robert Smalls. He was well

respected. One of the few black leaders still around in the state. He was still immensely popular in his district. He won his election, despite the odds being stacked against him. him, and Democrats decided he had to go. And so those racist assholes looked Robert Smalls in the eye and said, Let's go to court. Let's go to court. On October 6, 1877, state police showed up at Robert Small's home in Beaufort, South Carolina, and placed him under arrest. His mother Lydia, his wife, Hannah, and their children watched in disbelief. They wondered if they would ever see him again. Robert Smalls had gotten word that this was going to happen, and he was ready. He reassured his family that he was innocent and that he would be home soon.

So you might be wondering, what was the charge against Robert Smalls? The charge was he accepted a $5,000 bribe while serving as a state senator. Adjusted for inflation, $120,000. Oof, okay. This was a super weak case. But here's the back story. Five years earlier, Robert Smalls had started his second term as a state senator in South Carolina. And he was put in charge of the printing committee.

They were responsible for public notices. So this is pre-internet days. Quite a lot. I was going to say, thank you for clarifying that. Yeah. You still got to print everything. You can read about the latest election results on the Town Square Bulletin Board right under the Have You Seen My Cat poster. The printing committee awarded contracts to third-party companies to print up all of these notices.

And in 1873, the printing committee awarded $350,000 to the Republican printing company, which was owned by a man named Josephus Woodruff. Josephus? Josephus. My God, okay. It's Joseph with a U.S. on the end. Apparently it's pronounced Josephus. Not Josephus?

I heard Josephus. Okay. But, you know, we'll take Josephus too. Josephus Woodruff was also the clerk of the state senate. So he owned this printing company and he was the clerk of the Senate. Yeah, okay. Serious conflict of interest. And they weren't even trying to hide it because the name of this dude's company was the Republican printing company.

Okay. So now five years later in 1877, Joe. Josephus Woodruff came forward and said he paid Robert Smalls $5,000 to give his company, the Republican printing company, that $350,000 contract. Adjusted for inflation, that was an $8.5 million contract. And how much was he paid to come forward and say all this? We'll get to that. Right.

Woodruff claimed he had evidence of everything. A grand jury agreed, and a trial date was set. Before the trial began, a member of the state's investigation committee came to Robert Smalls and was like, hey, you should probably resign your seat in Congress. Oh, I'm just being a friend here. I'm just looking out for you. This is my friendly advice. Dude, I'm your pal. I'm your buddy.

I'm looking out for you. You know, the Democrats, we control the jury. We control the court. We control everything. And this indictment basically means you're guilty. So you should probably resign your seat in Congress. And Robert Smalls was like, resign what? The seat I was elected to?

I'm innocent and they can't do it. And with that, the trial began on November 7, 1877. Robert Smalls was represented by his old friend, Judge Samuel Melton. Oh, wow. Okay. Who, if you recall, Robert Smalls had nominated him to be the candidate for governor. We do recall. Samuel Melton would actually go on to become the Attorney General of South Carolina.

He was a damn good lawyer. And Samuel Melton came out swinging, Kristen. First, he argued that the case should be moved to federal court. Because there was no way Robert Smalls could have a fair trial given the political climate of the area. That was denied. Yeah. Then Samuel Melton argued that the trial should be delayed because Congress was actually in session. And Robert Smalls needed to be in Washington, D.C. to carry out his responsibilities.

The judge said, no. So 0 for 2. The prosecution first called up former Senate clerk Josephus Woodruff to the stand. Pretty much the entire case rested on this dude's testimony. So Woodruff was an unsavory fellow. He had actually confessed to stealing $250,000 from the state of South Carolina while he was a clerk. And then he fled to the state of Pennsylvania. And so South Carolina authorities came after him, and they offered him immunity.

Oh, in exchange for his testimony, in exchange for testifying against Robert Smalls and other Republicans. He actually was the star witness in several of these investigation committee cases. Woodruff claimed that on January 19th, 1873, he gave Robert Smalls a check for $5,000 for his vote. when he was asked how he could remember such a specific date. He was like, oh, it's because I wrote it down in my diary. His diary was really weird, though. It was not written in English. It was like some like proprietary shorthand that he had made up.

You would need like a codebreaker to read his diary. The defense was like, we can't even read this. Right. And Josephus Woodruff was like, oh, yeah, I had my own style. aisle of taking notes so only I can read it to the jury. Robert Small's attorney, Samuel Milton, was like, uh, objection, that's bullshit. Yes.

The judge overruled. Josephus Woodruff then presented a copy of the check that read January 19th, 1873, pay to cash or bear $5,000. Samuel Melton was like, dude, that check wasn't even made out to Robert Smalls. It's just a check for $5,000. Robert Smalls didn't even sign the check. Josephus Woodruff replied, well, I didn't write Robert Small's name because I had to protect him.

This was a bribe, duh. Can't just write his name on there. Well, then how would he cash it? Samuel Melton pushed back on that. He was like, January 19th, 1873, that's a Sunday. Banks are closed on Sundays. How could he have even deposited this check on a Sunday? Woodruff was like, oh, it's because I post-dated the check.

I actually gave him the check on Saturday. January 18th, because I wasn't sure if my account had enough funds to cover it. Oh, Lord. Which is more bullshit because if his account didn't have funds on Saturday, they wouldn't magically appear on Sunday. Those aren't business days. Right. Samuel Melton also brought up an interesting point. The printing contract had already been awarded a month prior in December of 1872.

So Robert Smalls was bribed after the contract was already awarded. Woodruff claimed, oh, well, it's because I promised Robert Smalls that I would pay him later, wink, wink. Next, the prosecution called up Lawrence Zeeley. He was an employee at the South Carolina Bank and Trust Company, where the check was allegedly deposited. Zeeley showed off a handwritten deposit slip dated January 18, 1873, that read, deposited by Robert Smalls, $5,000. The slip was not signed by anyone. The only verification was the letter W, which apparently stood for Josephus Woodruff, who wrote the check.

The bank did not present a copy of the check. The dates on the check and the deposit slip do not match up. On cross-examination, Samuel Milton asked Lauren Zeeley if he had written the deposit slip. Zeeley was like, no, that was some other guy. It was a cashier named Mr. Jacobs. Samuel Moulton was like, Okay, let's talk to Mr. Jacobs. Where is he?

Lauren Zeely replied, oh, well, last I heard, he fled the state after being charged with perjury four times. Listen, if you're going to invent a man, invent an honorable one. No, he was a real dude. No, I believe that. If you're going to say he was charged with all this shit, obviously he's a real guy. Yeah. But come on. This is a terrible case.

Mm-hmm. If you're going to frame somebody, do a better job. With that, the prosecution rested. I don't know that they should have. That was it. Robert Small's defense just reiterated everything I just told you. The weird coded diary, the inconsistent dates, the shady witnesses, the weird deposit slip. They didn't even bring up any witnesses.

Right. On November 10th, 1877, three days after the trial began, the jury came back with their verdict. Kristen, what do you think? Okay, maybe I'm way too optimistic, but I truly think this is a terrible case. I'm going to say not guilty. Robert Smalls was found guilty of bribery. You're kidding. Nope.

Here's what I'll say. There is no doubt that corruption and bribery were a thing in the Republican-controlled state legislature. The fact that they awarded a massive printing contract to the clerk of the Senate is super shady. Yeah. Did Robert Smalls get paid for? for his influence as a senator, I'm going to say, yes, he definitely did. The sources I read on this trial are kind of conflicting. One source claimed that Robert Smalls didn't even have an account at that bank where the check was deposited.

Another source claimed he actually did have an account, and that Smalls admitted he did make a deposit for $5,000, but he said it wasn't for any bribe. I also read part of Josephus Woodruff's diary. It's pretty interesting. One entry talked about an upcoming bill that Robert Smalls opposed. And Josephus Woodruff wrote, quote, If they oppose, I shall certainly stop some of their rations. Oh. But either way, the evidence in this case was terrible.

The witnesses were terrible. I don't think Robert Smalls received a fair trial. This was a politically motivated case. He should not have been found guilty. Right. But did he take money for his influence? I think Robert Smalls probably did. But you're saying probably not this amount, this time.

You're saying more in the way that a lot of the other politicians did at the time? Right. Yeah. Okay. Robert Smalls was stunned by the verdict. Apparently he glared at the judge as his sentence was read. The injustice was just too much for him. After the conviction, a newspaper editor came to Robert Smalls and was like, hey, I heard through the grapevine that if you resign your congressional seat,

shut up, the governor will pardon you and then give you $10,000. They are so transparent. Robert Smalls again refused and said, quote, if you want me to resign my position, you must call meetings all over the congressional district and get the people who elected me to pass. resolutions requiring me to resign. Yeah. And then you can have the office without a penny. Otherwise, I would suffer myself to go to the penitentiary and rot before I resign an office that I was elected to.

On November 26, 1873, Robert Smalls received a sentence. Three years of hard labor in the state penitentiary. Oh, my God. Robert Smalls spent three days in solitary confinement before. being released on bond. He quickly appealed the ruling and awaited the South Carolina Supreme Court to hear the case. The conviction would badly damage Robert Small's political career. It couldn't have come at a worse time. Congress was currently looking at the contested election results between Robert Smalls and George Tillman to decide who actually won the 1876 race. Newspapers piled on too.

There were gossip stories like, oh, actually, I heard Robert Small's didn't steal the planter during the Civil War. It was actually another guy and Robert Smalls took all the credit. This sucks. Hit pieces on him. A damaged reputation. The end of reconstruction. Losing the battle for equality and civil rights.

Sentenced to three years of hard labor in prison. No one would have blamed Robert Smalls for giving up with so much stacked against him. But he wasn't the type of guy to just roll over and take it. Unlike you, Kristen. I'm so glad you're. Gearing up to this, you know, something clearly different? Robert Smalls was going to fight back. All right.

On the next episode of an old-timey podness. Hell yeah! And the final episode of my series on Robert Smalls. Robert Smalls fights the charges, claws his way back, and cements his legacy as an American hero. Oh, I love this. I told you on our walk today, this is the best series. on this podcast. Wow.

It's so good. Thank you. It's so good. Can you believe that fucking trial? It's so infuriating. And it's funny because that whole time as you were talking about that trial, I was like, you're going to frame somebody to do a better job of it.

But then when you hear the aftermath of the damaged reputation, I kind of went, oh, because what they really want is for him to not be an elected official anymore. Right. They want him to go away. And so even if they can't find anything solid on him, even if it's just in the newspapers, even if it's just out there and seeds of doubt are put in people's minds about him, then they've kind of won on some level. That was a tough thing to research because I'm researching the court case.

Yeah. And I'm like, this is such bold. This like the evidence sucks. Yeah. These witnesses are shady as fuck. But then you like learn more about South Carolina politics at that time. And you see like actual documented evidence. And you're like, okay, Robert Smalls probably did take money.

Sure. For his votes. But like that was not a fair trial at all. Right. And it just reminds me of like historical figure. it's not like black and white. No pun intended. People are complex.

Yeah. Historical figures are people. Right. I think Robert Smalls is an American hero. Absolutely. But he wasn't perfect. Right. No one is.

Right. And like you said, Kristen, when you talked about the Confederacy having good ideas, it's like, well, maybe they did. Let's think about it. No, let's not. And then that Hamburg Massacre, oh, I hated reading about that. It's horrible. It is.

There is actually a plaque now for the Hamburg Massacre that lists the names of the Black Men that were killed. Thank God. But, yeah, that Benjamin Tillman fucking statue's still up. That monument to the one white guy killed in the massacre is still up. Here's what's interesting about the Hamburg Massacre monument, the new one. They list not only the black man killed, but also that one white guy that was killed. They list everybody killed in that event. But yeah, that one to the one white guy, that monument is still up.

I'm going to get on my high horse a little bit here. Okay. A lot of people that tell the story of Robert Smalls, they talk about him stealing the boat, and it's kind of where they end the story. Yeah. They'll mention, yeah, he was elected to Congress. He was elected to the state legislature. They'll mention that. But it's like, man, this is why I scream from.

the rooftops context. Yeah. You got to understand reconstruction. Got to understand what it was like in South Carolina at that time to see

like what he was going through as a representative. Yeah. Dealing with fucking violent terrorist groups running rampant in his state, opposition in Congress

for just like basic protections of people. Yeah. For not wanting people to be murdered. And like a nation that was, was no longer interested in helping black Americans that were now free.

Slavery was over. It's just, it's heartbreaking. Reconstruction is just, it's heartbreaking. Yeah, it's a heartbreaking failure. Yeah, I wish, I wish we would talk about it more. I think that if we did, it'd be a lot easier to sell people on the idea that we need to do more now. Yeah. And it explains.

a lot of the problems that we as a nation have had in the years since reconstruction. Yeah. Well, you have to think, like that where I talked about, you know, the Democrats took back South Carolina. Mm-hmm. From that moment till the 1960s, that's how long that lasted. That's a long time. It's almost a hundred years.

Yeah. I'll tell you what. It's funny thinking about people telling his story and only focusing on stealing the boat. I think that's such a disservice to everybody. Because that story of stealing the boat, it is so badass. It's cool. It's a cool story. It's an awesome story.

It's also easy to tell. It's not messy. No, it's not. And when you're looking for heroes, when you're looking for people to emulate, when you see things that you want to change in the world, God, it's, it's hard to get something actionable out of a story where a man doesn't even sound human. He sounds like an action hero. Yeah. And it's fun to hear the story. And I'm glad we heard it. I mean, it's cool. But I think the messiness he faced afterward, it's important. It's important to hear that he said to

black women, hey, the way to influence, to hold political influence is to withhold sex. That's a shitty thing to say. Yeah. He was human. Yep. So yeah, this next episode will be the final episode of the Robert Smalls series. And I'm wondering what Kristen will talk about next. I can tell you it's going to be terrible.

Actually, we're going to have your dad on. Oh, yeah. We're going to have my dad on. But so the one single episode. episode that I'm working on now involves snakes. And I hate snakes. And I thought I would do a better job with it because I thought I'd grown as a person that I was not quite as afraid of snakes. I have been researching it for a couple days. I have dreamt of snakes every night. Every night I am waiting in a disgusting Missouri River and snakes are a common. Is that why I look over and you're in a cold sweat shivering?

Maybe, darling. Wow. So yeah, you have that to look forward to. But also, I've got some reviews to read. Oh. Okay, you ready? I'm ready. The title of this review is,

This podcast saved my marriage. Whoa, really? Five stars from M. Brown. M. Brown writes, Okay, while that may be a bit extreme, my husband and I have vastly different tastes in podcasts, which makes road trips hard. This is the only one we both love. We get to learn and laugh and sometimes even pause it to have our own conversations about the content. Not only are Kristen and Norm excellent researchers, but their delivery and banter is witty and hilarious. If your marriage is on the rocks, give it a listen. Wow.

Norm, are we heroes? We are like the Dr. Phil of podcasting. Oh, God. Right? What you need to do. I wish I still had that sound of him saying, shut up, bitch. Damn, I'm going to put that back on. Norm, think of all the marriages we have saved by this charitable endeavor.

That's great. And, you know, yeah, if your marriage is on the rocks, say, look, we've tried counseling. We've tried talking to one another. We've tried couples retreats. Uh-huh. We've tried... We went on Dr. Phil that one time and he called us both stupid bitches. He said, shut the hell up, bitch.

Uh-huh. Let's try listening to an old-timey podcast. Okay, you're ready for another one? Oh, you have more. Oh, well, we could just leave it at that. I mean, that was a very strong review. That's up there. Borderline false advertising.

But what else you got? Okay. This title, great podcast. Five stars. And the username is Charlotte hates nicknames. Oh, say no more, Charlotte. Charlotte says, don't let the long episodes discourage you. Once you start listening, you will want them to be longer.

Any time a new episode drops, I can't wait to listen. The hosts have a fantastic dynamic, and they are able to make potentially mundane topics interesting and funny. I would recommend this podcast to anyone wanting to learn about random historical stories, while smiling. Thanks, Kristen and Norm. Keep it up. Thank you, Charlotte. Now I'm imagining me

having a smile on my face while I'm like, and then Reconstruction ended. We tell you really sad stories, but we smile through it. Toxic positivity. Yeah.

Yay. We're all about it. Thank you, Charlotte. No, we're not about it. No, we are not. We keep it real on this podcast. You ready for another? Oh, man, more?

Okay. I'm doing three. I feel like three is a good number. Three is the magic number, as they say. Title of this one? A love triangle? Oh. Five stars.

This comes from McAmy Rose. McAmy Rose writes... Amy Rose, that's a sonic character. What about the Mick? The Mick is not. Oh, okay. They write, I don't know who makes the better couple. Kristen and Norm, or Norm, Norm, and that.

keyboard. Either way, I love the three of them. Oh, my keyboard? That's right. I'm about to bust. Some call it a soundboard, but you know, I'll take keyboard too. Wow. Okay. Hey, thanks for your five-star review, McAmy Rose. Norm wants to correct you now. Mistake of shame in your own review. You're just trying to do what I do to you. That you wrote us as a favor. I get you saying terrible shit on this podcast all the time and I'm going to save it. I'm going to add it to the soundboard. Actually, I don't have, I don't have all your terrible shit on here anymore. Damn. I didn't have anything terrible on there.

I'd sniff my butthole on here. Oh, well, you know, that's an invitation to everyone. We still have your dad. Sexy times. Ooh, we're recording with him tomorrow. You know, um... People are excited. On that note of my dad saying sexy times, I think we should wrap it up.

Let's do it. Are the people prepared? We don't know. It'll be fun. You and I are going to sit next to each other. And DP is getting the soundboard. I don't know what he wants on there, but it's going to be wild and crazy. I'm terrified.

I'm so excited. You know what they say about history, hoes? We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from, Be Free or Die, the amazing story of Robert Smalls Escape from Slai to Union Hero by Kate Lineberry. Gala Statesman, Robert Smalls from slavery to Congress by Edward Miller Jr. And, yearning to breathe free, Robert Smalls of South Carolina and his families by Andrew Billingsley.

That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, R-slash-old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old-Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually. on Instagram. She is the lovely Kristen Pitts Caruso. I go by Gaming Historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio. Bye.