An Old Timey Podcast - 53: Is JCPenney the Best Department Store? (Part 1)

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

Normie C starts this series with a bold claim: That JCPenney is the best department store ever. This raises a lot of questions. Questions like… Really? Has Norm been to other department stores? Also, really??In Part 1, Norm loads us up with all the context we’ll ever need about James Cash Penney Jr. A poor farm boy from Missouri, Penney would eventually create a chain of department stores with more than 2,000 locations worldwide. (If you’re able, please listen to this episode while wearing your finest St. John's Bay polo.)Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Norm pulled from: Currey, Mary Elizabeth. Creating an American Institution: The Merchandising Genius of J.C. Penney. Dissertations-G, 1993.Kruger, David Delbert. J.C. Penney: The Man, the Store, and American Agriculture. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2017.Penney, James Cash. Fifty Years with the Golden Rule. Harper and Brothers, 1950.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Normie C. And I'm Kristen Caruso. And in this series, I'll be talking about the man who started America's greatest apartment store, J.C. Penny. I don't think that is the best department store. Oh, really? Maybe you'll change your mind after this series. Well, that seems more like a statement of fact.

It is. Okay. I'm the expert here. I've been doing all the research. And let me tell you, this man is a great American. Okay, but have you researched all the other department stores? No. No. So we can't really declare him the greatest.

I'm sorry to say, I'm sorry to poop all over your parade. Is that the same? You say I'm a little biased. I think so. I am. I've talked about J.C. Penny a few times on this podcast. You have. It started as a joke and then you got genuinely interested.

And now here we are. It did start as a joke. and then we took a trip to his hometown. And me and my dad went to the tiny little J.C. Penny Museum. And I thought it was very interesting. I thought, yeah, I'm going to do a series on him. Because you know what? This is our podcast.

And we can talk about whatever the hell we want. Well, and the other thing is, of course, the fact that people demanded it. People were like, hey, we've got an episode suggestion. It's J.C. Penny. Please, please. That's what, you know, just dozens and dozens of people said. Isn't that true norm? You were the one who saw all those requests.

I didn't see any of them. If you go to the topic megathread on our subreddit, our slash old-timey podcast, the top comment by far with about 500,000 upvotes is please talk about James Cash Penny. His middle name was not Cash. It was Cash. Well, that. Isn't that fun? And his last name's P. Oh, damn it.

That's great. That's really good. That's really good. Speaking of cash and pennies. Oh. Hold the phone. I've got to do a Patreon plug. Oh, great segue, Kristen.

You're becoming a pro at this. Becoming a pro! I've always been a pro, bitch. Uh-oh. I called him a bitch. Oh, boy. Everyone. Confidence waning.

I called Norm a little bitch for stealing the covers the other night. It created a big kerfuffle in the marriage. I stormed out of the room and got my own blanket. It's true. And you know what? I kind of like that setup now. I think we just have separate blankets. So you're welcome for calling you a bitch. It's all because you called me a bitch. And you're welcome, listener, for me telling you about patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. What will you get there? Oh my God. So many things. Calm down. Let me tell you about it. At the $5 level, you get into our Discord to chitty chat the day away. And you get bonus episodes.

bonus episodes. This last one we recorded, I'll admit I was struggling. We did something that I have never done in my entire podcasting career, which is we recorded an episode in the morning. It was pure hell, and I barely got through it. It was our best episode yet. And to listen to it, you need to give us $5. I disagree that it was our best episode yet. I really felt sorry for myself that whole time. And the sad thing is, I was talking about men on an expedition into the Arctic where things didn't go great. So it was a weird time to feel pity for myself, and yet I managed. Anyhow, if you're like, oh, actually, the economy isn't really affecting me.

I think I'd like to spend more money. Well, sign on up Buttercup at the $10 level. At that level, you'll get those things I just mentioned. Plus, ad-free video episodes of every ding-dong episode of this very podcast. You also get a card and stickers with our autographs valued at $500,000. Whoa, that seems like a great deal. It's very true, too. Who gave that valuation?

Was it Dr. Hubert Montgomery? It was. Our best friend on the show? Uh-huh. He came to that number and we shan't disagree with him a bit. He's an expert. Also at that level, you get 10% off on merch. You get access to all of the bonus episodes of my old rotting decrepit podcast.

Let's go to court. You also get all the ad-free episodes of that whole ding-dong show. I've said ding-dong too many times. You're really into ding-dongs today. You know, I kind of want a cupcake. I think that's the problem. Oh, okay. Yeah, so anyway, patreon.com slash old-timey podcast.

Join us, won't you? Thank you, Kristen. You're welcome. I think we're going to get 10,000 signups from that plus. Um, that is dreaming too small, sir. Well, I'm inspired by J.C. Penny. I got a dream big, baby. Before you get into that, Normie C, first, we have to go to an ad. Do-de-loo!

Hey, everybody. Let me tell you about citation needed. Citation Needed is a comedy podcast where a panel of hilarious hosts summarize a real Wikipedia article and then make it weird. Each episode covers a different historical figure, event, or absurd topic, bringing the story to life with jokes, rants, and barely contained chaos. Citation Needed is perfect for listeners who love learning weird stuff, but aren't afraid to laugh at how ridiculous history and people can be. No topic too big, no fact too small, no punchline too far. If you ever wanted your history class to include more jokes about farts or legal loopholes, citation needed is for you. I really like the energy on Citation Needed. If you like a podcast that's really moving and really fun, it's the one for you.

Yeah, and they find some wild topics. I listen to one on Elmer McCurdy, who is a train robber whose body was displayed for like 80 years after he died. Really weird, never heard of that story, but man, I learned a lot. Citation Need has new episodes every week available wherever you get your podcast, plus a deep back catalog so you can binge while wondering how humanity survived this long. citation needed because this is the internet and that's how it works now and we're back from the ad doodoo doda lu Kristen are you ready to learn about america's greatest department store yes i don't think you are i am ready i am ready i'm excited did you buy this uh blouse from j c penny how dare you

you know j c penny kind of has gone a little downhill i'd say well i think most people would say that I do feel like, okay, when's the right time? Right time for what? You know what I have to say, that my grandmother worked in the catalog department of J.C. Penny for like her entire career, loved it. Most passionate J.C. Penny employee you ever did see. So this is kind of close to my heart. Yeah. And, you know, after researching this, I can see why your grandma was so devoted to J.C. Penny.

Well, get going, big boy. Okay, Kristen, picture it. It's 1998, baby. Okay. The drudge report breaks the shocking story if President Bill Clinton having an affair with a White House intern named Monica Lewinsky. Um, sir, I thought this was about JCPenney.

Stanford University students Larry Page and Sergey Brin launch a little company called Google. Hmm, it'll never last. And then R&B Group Next released the number one hit of the year, too close. Oh, no, da-da-da-da-da-na on you. The people wanted me to sing along. That's the thing.

Ah, yeah, that's why I added the sound. Yeah, they were like, we don't want to hear those professional singers at all. We want to hear Kristen Caruso from an old-timey podcast. But guess what, Kristen? I don't want to talk about any of those things. Instead, let's travel to a pretty big city in the northeast corner of North Carolina, Elizabeth City, population, about 16. thousand. Wow, huge. And one of those residents was a young 11-year-old boy named Normie C.

It's summertime, and dear God, it's hotter than Satan's taint. Oh! Bird spontaneously combusted in the air. You could cook eggs on the sidewalk. So I, an intellectual, was sitting around inside in my boxers playing Sega Genesis. But even inside, I was still sweating balls, because my mom did not like running the air conditioner. To this day, she does not, and boy, is a feeling. It's funny. She got a brand new air conditioner like last year. And I was like, why? You never run it anyway. And she was like, well, it was old. It was time to replace it. It was like, you barely ran it. How did it even die? Well, yeah, so my mom didn't run the air conditioners. Instead, she set up a bunch of dehumidifiers around the house that were loud as hell.

You know how hard it was to fall asleep during the summer? That didn't become like your ocean sounds? No, they're so loud and annoying. Oh, okay. Well, Christen, picture it. I'm on the very last level of streets of rage. When all of a sudden, slam! My mom bursts into the room and says, Norman, put on some clothes. I'm taking you clothes shopping for school.

Oh. You see, back then, I really didn't care about my clothes. I usually just wore hand-me-downs from my brother. You know, as long as my tiny nipples and crotch were covered, I was fine. All three tiny or just the nipples? You know what? You were 11. I'm not asking any more questions.

And let's forget I have. You know how I feel about my tiny nipples, Kristen. I do know. And that's why you take my lip liner constantly and you enlarge them yourself every morning. You think I don't know, but I always know. By the way, in our last episode, I made a joke about polyurethane titties, getting that nice gloss of your teeth. So in the Discord changed your name to satin polyurethane titties. I was very proud of that.

So thank you, dear history, ho. Thank you, a hero. So yeah, I really wasn't into clothes, just wore hamming down. So, of course, I was like, hey, I don't need new clothes. But my mom insisted. I was a growing boy. I did need new clothes. So where would we go?

Well, around Elizabeth City, we had a few options, Kristen. There was Wally World out on 17 Highway, aka Walmart. And across the street from that was a Kmart. I liked Kmart because their video game selection was way better than Walmarts. And next door to Kmart, there's a big lot. Sometimes they had some cool stuff. They didn't have clothing. They had clothes.

Oh my. How dare you? I'm sorry. You must not have been a regular shopper. I guess not. Elizabeth City also had a belk, a southern chain of department stores. But Kristen, that day my mom was ready to elevate my style. She was taking me to the greatest department store of all time.

The J.C. Penny of department stores, J.C. Penny. We walked in and I couldn't believe it. The store was immaculate. But clothes were all folded neatly, organized impeccably. Everything seemed to sparkle. Are you just bullshitting or were you genuinely impressed? I was impressed. I thought Jay C. Penny was a very fancy store.

Okay. All right. And they had just about everything a young boy could need to look his best. Shirts, shoes, pants, belts, suits, ties, belts, wallets, watches, belts, cologne, and more. How many belts did this store have? I actually wrote it down three times for some reason. Whoops.

That day, Kristen, I learned that it felt good to look your best. I got Billabong graphic teas, St. John's Bay Polo shirts. Hell yeah. A pair of Adidas indoor soccer shoes. And then the ultimate fashion statement. My very own pair of Jinko jeans. With a red and green stripe going down the size. Hell yeah.

I looked like an airport runway. Did the jeans swallow your feet entirely? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's the only way to do them. Okay. Yes, it was an incredible experience, Kristen. And as we left the store, I turned to my mom and said, You know, Mom, J.C. Penny has an incredible selection of goods at affordable prices.

No wonder they're doing so well. That's a direct quote, by the way. Oh, that's amazing. Of course, my shopping trip took place in a different time. A time before Internet retail and a large influxation. of cheap overseas manufacturing. Today, J.C. Penny is not what it once was. During COVID, the company declared bankruptcy and closed hundreds of stores.

Today, they operate about 650 locations. But during its heyday, J.C. Penny had more than 2,000 stores. They carried all the home essentials at affordable prices in a clean, well-maintained environment. The company took care of their employees, and they operated under the Golden R. rule, treat others the way you want to be treated. It's a reason why JCPenny stores thrived even in small towns like Elizabeth City, North Carolina. These values, quality items, affordable prices, cleanliness, taking care of employees, treating customers right, were all instilled by the company's founder, James Cash Penny Jr. Norm, by the end of this series, will we be able to

just shout promo code Normie see it, check out at any JCPenney and get some kind of discount. That's the goal here. Okay. And it would be fucking incredible of that. If J.C. Penny reached out and they're like, we listen to your series. We loved it. So, Kristen, in this series, I'm going to tell you all about J.C. Penny and how he created America's greatest department store. Let's get started.

Let's travel back in time. Do-loo. Oh, come on. Come on, doodoo's. You know, it's just me saying doodoo. I could do that right now. Yeah, but this is like the perfect way to say it. We're going to the 1800s.

The place, Caldwell County, Missouri. Landlocked Caldwell County, Missouri is located about 70 miles northeast of our sex dungeon here in Kansas City, Missouri. It's a place filled with beautiful countryside, rolling hills, creeks, pastures, cornfields, old rickety barns. During the day, you can hear the moos of cows as they graze and probably smell them too. At night, the gentle chirping of crickets as the moon lights the dew on the grass. What can you smell at night? Probably still cows. Oh, okay, gotcha. And now I'd like to interrupt this serene image with a not-so-fun fact. Oh, no, my brains. Caldwell County, Missouri was formed in eight.

Oh, no. Specifically. It's slavery. It's going to be slavery, folks. I just know it. You're wrong. Really? Caldwell County, Missouri was formed in 1836, specifically as a dedicated settlement for the Mormons.

Oh, okay. The Mormons were basically being kicked out of Independence, Missouri. Oh. So the Missouri government was like, get out of here and go to Caldwell County. Two years later, in 1838, Caldwell County was home to a. around 4,000 Mormons, including famous Mormon celebrities like Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. Holy smokes! Whoa!

Well, the Mormons got a little too popular, and Missouri settlers nearby felt real threatened by the Mormons. What do you mean too popular? There were too many Mormons, according to the Missourians. Too many of them? Sure. Okay. Tensions rose. The governor of Missouri signed an engagement.

executive order that said Mormons must be, quote, exterminated or driven from the state. Oh, shit. Which, by the way, was not rescinded until 1976. Oh, my God. All of this led to the 1838 Mormon War, which forced the Mormons out of Caldwell County, Missouri, and into Illinois. Norm. Future topic? If you had asked me, what do you think might come up within the first 20 minutes of an episode about J.C.

It wouldn't be Mormon extermination. This is ridiculous. Yeah. The Mormon War is very interesting. I had a class on Kansas-Missouri Border War, and we talked about the Mormon War for a few days. It was really fascinating. It's funny. I know you've talked to me about it before.

I feel like we've even talked about it on the podcast before. And yet every time I hear it, I go, are you kidding me? Get out of here. It's true, Kristen. Well, anyway, with all the Mormons gone, Caldwell County was kind of empty, and soon new settlers moved into the area to try and start a new life on what was then considered the Western frontier of America. And Caldwell County specifically appealed to farmers. It was advertised as, quote, well-wooded, rolling, healthy, and extremely

well-watered. It had cheap land, fertile soil. Farmers would have no problem growing corn, wheat, oats, rye, barley, melons, apples, peaches, plums, cherries, yum. Hundreds of families migrated to Caldwell County, and one of them was a Kentucky family known as the Pennies. The Pennyhead of household was a fiery Baptist preacher named Eli Penny. He'd come from a long line of Baptist preachers. The pennies arrived in Caldwell County, Missouri in 1841, and they purchased 375 acres of land for $3,000. adjusted for inflation, that's about $110,000.

Wow! That's a low price! What is that from? That's from an old Staples commercial? Can you remember the guy walking around just screaming, wow, that's a low price? You know, you remember some of these commercials? During our bonus episode, you brought up a Holiday Inn Express commercial that I had completely forgotten.

I'm a master of the craft, Kristen. Wow. Incredible. Now you might be thinking, wow, 375 acres. That's a lot of acreage for one family to farm. Well, don't you worry, Kristen, because Eli Penny also brought enslaved people with him to Missouri. Yeah, I knew this was coming. He enslaved around 6 to 8 people at any given time.

After settling down, the pennies started farming and preaching and making babies. And one of those babies was James Cash Penny, born on December 29th, 18th. This was J.C. Penny's father, and I really think it's important we learn about him because he was very instrumental in shaping his son's life. Okay. James Penny grew up working on the farm. At the age of 17, he graduated from Pleasant Ridge College in nearby Weston, Missouri. He was very religious, although not quite as conservative as his father. After graduation, James Penny planned to become a Baptist preacher, just like his dad. But in 1861, when he was 19 years old, this crazy little thing called the American Civil War broke out.

Folks around Caldwell County were split on which side to take, as was most of the state of Missouri. But ultimately, James Penny decided to join the Caldwell Minutemen. What side was that on? A secessionist militia group. Ew. James Penny fought at the Battle of Lexington. The Battle of Wilson's Creek. The Battle of Carthage.

What about Balls Bluff? No, I didn't fight at Ball's Bluff. I actually don't have any idea how many people actually fought at Balls Bluff. It's just the most hilarious battle, to me, a mature adult woman. Yeah, you really did enjoy that. Well, yeah, Balls Bluff. And then you enjoyed my joke that Balls Bluff was right under Eggplant Ridge. I did.

Hey, that bonus episode wasn't so bad. I told you it's our greatest episode because it was recorded at 1030 in the morning. Oh, my God, no. Okay. Anyway, it did have a good eggplant joke, though, folks. After six months of service in the secessionist militia, James Penny's service was up. Most soldiers in the militia joined the Confederate Army afterward.

But not James Penny. I guess war wasn't for him. Or maybe the Confederacy wasn't for him. It's not really clear why. But we do know that after his militia service, James Penny took an oath of allegiance to the Union. The Civil War in Missouri was chaotic. There was rampant guerrilla warfare, particularly in the border region between Kansas and Missouri.

Caldwell County was only 50 miles from the state line. It was kind of a dangerous place to live during that time. Did they think about just locking up all the guerrillas? Everyone. I know most of you do not have the video of this podcast, but you really missed something. And it was my husband, not appreciating my joke at all. I wonder if Harambe's grandfather fought in the American Civil War.

R-A-P Harambe, remember that? I do remember that. I do, I do. We have the best references on his podcast. Dicks out for Harambe. Yeah. Woo, woo, woo. So perhaps James Penny thought that, you know, as someone who switched allegiances,

maybe it would be very dangerous for him to, kind of be in that area. Well, either way, in 1862, James Penny left Missouri to go teach in Kentucky. And while living in Kentucky, James Penny met the hottest woman he had ever seen. Hold on, hold on, hold on. What? He joins, he pledges allegiance to the union and then moves to Kentucky? Kentucky. Kentucky was a border state? Oh, was Kentucky Union? Yeah. Boy, shows what I know. You got a lot to learn, Kristen. Please do not punish me by doing a 27-part episode on the Civil War. We will do, I will do a 15-part series on the border states.

Oh my God. Listen, I'm already feeling kind of weird about this J.C. Penny series. Oh, yeah, everyone, if you're wondering, hey, how's Norm's self-esteem doing? Not great. Not great. It's at the bottom of the bottom, folks. Dear, dear, this podcast has something for everybody. The deep dives, the one-offs, the lengthy tales about American. his favorite slash not at all favorite department store.

Don't you worry about it. You give the people what they don't want to hear. Do it. Okay. I'm in it to win it. So what about this haughty in Kentucky? Yeah, James Penny met the hottest woman he had ever seen. Light brown hair, blue gray eyes. Oh, she also happened to be his first cousin.

Oh, God. Her name was Mary Francis Paxton. The two fell in love and were married on September, 28, 1862. What is love, love? You are my cousin. My cousin. My cousin.

My cousin. Well, I mean, wouldn't your family reunion be kind of exactly who's at your wedding, too? That's weird. Cool as hell is what it would be. No, it would not. And then you give birth to a kid who's got an arm growing out of their eyeball. I don't know. I'm not really sure what happens when two cousins make a baby, but I don't want to find out.

Good, I'm glad. Well, no, we're about to find out. Yeah, they made a lot of babies. Okay. Five years later in 1867, the American Civil War was finally over. James and Mary Penny had a new family, a daughter, Middy, a son, Eli. And James Penny thought it was the right time to head back to Caldwell County, Missouri. But James didn't want to go back to his father's farm.

He was ready to make his own life. And when trying to decide where to go, he found the perfect place. a brand new town called Hamilton, Missouri, named after the founding father that every middle-aged woman knows about, Alexander Hamilton! Don't make fun of us women who loved Hamilton! I'm going to. God. Sorry, folks, I did not like Hamilton.

Yeah, everyone, just so you know, like, I loved Hamilton, obviously, because I'm an American. And several years ago, when it first came out, I was listening to the soundtrack, bopping along, doing my makeup, and Norm came up to me and said, what the hell were you listening to just there? I had no idea. I was like, who is this guy rapping? It's terrible. I told you it was the Hamilton soundtrack, quite smugly, and you said, oh, I wondered what that lame rapping was. It was very weird. I'm sorry, I admit I am a hater. I didn't like Hamilton. I just don't like musicals. I think that's my whole thing. Yeah. And I remember I watched it on Disney Plus and I was like, well, okay, the music's whatever.

But maybe I'll enjoy the like dialogue scenes. And then I realized there are none. They literally sing the whole time. It's a musical norm. This is what happens anytime we watch a musical. You're like, maybe I'll like the non-musical parts. And I have to be like, sir, that's like saying maybe I'll like the parts of the horror movie where it's just the woman waiting alone in the woods. No.

Yeah, it's great. No, it's all scary. Anyway, continue. Book of Mormon was great. It had some great dialogue. Okay. I don't know how you would know that because that was where we went on our honeymoon. We went to that show and I just want the people to know that I saved us $40 by buying seats that were directly behind a pole.

So, no regrets. You did it twice, actually. Because we also sat behind a pole at Wrigley Field. Yeah. This is a problem when you're raised by DP. Any opportunity to save some money is always taken, even if it makes no sense. And when you say DP, you mean your father. Yeah, I don't mean double penetration.

Because we're going to have a lot of people Googling J.C. Penny, and our podcast is going to come up and they're going to learn about us for the first time. Oh, okay. I see. I see. Yes. Yes. So, yeah, James Penny is moving back to Caldwell County, Missouri, and he's going to live in Hamilton. Hamilton was a railroad town. It had been built along the tracks of the Hannibal and St. Joseph Railroad that ran through the northern part of the county. And thanks to that railroad, Hamilton was booming. It was the biggest town in Caldwell County with a population of 1,200.

Okay. It had three churches, a high school, banks, jewelers, general stores, lumberyards, produce stands, saloons, two hotels, and more. It was a great place to start a farm, too. The railroad could move goods easily, and the various stores in town could supply farmers with whatever they needed. James Penny thought it would be a great place to settle down and raise his family. So James and Mary Penny purchased 480 acres of land for $4,880, just for inflation, about $105,000. Their farm was about two miles east of Hamilton, and it was a beautiful piece of property.

It had a small one-story house, a pond for fishing, a barn. There was even a little coal mine for Spalunkan. Oh. I love that word. I do too. Spalunkin. I also love the word stalactite. What about stalagmite?

I also enjoy that, too. You just surprise me every day, Christa. It's beautiful. With my cave knowledge. Yes. But James Penny's favorite feature of that farm were the vats. fields of wild bluegrass. James Penny thought it was beautiful.

He called it, quote, a living carpet of matchless beauty. Hmm. In fact, he loved it so much, he didn't want to touch it. He thought it would be a shame to mess with such a beautiful creation of God. It was almost like sacred ground to him.

Well, when you're living that farm life, you got to make money somehow. So James Penny focused his efforts on livestock. He raised cattle, pigs, sheep, horses. It's too bad he didn't know about pig butter. He could have made millions of dollars. Absolutely. But you know, in a way, I'm glad because that enables us to sell pig butter at the $10 level on our Patreon, which is what this is all about, really. Patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Now, the farm life didn't really make you a lot of money, especially when you refused to turn

acres of bluegrass into a profitable crop. But the pennies seemed content. They were getting by. was active in the community too. After his father's death in 1871, he got his preaching license and took over as the minister at the Log Creek Church. Well, that's a homey little name for a church. It just makes you want to walk in and hug a bear and sit down and hear a sermon. Absolutely. Bears go to church in my head. Well, sure. They want to hear the word of God too. Working a farm, running a church. James Penny was a busy beaver. but he always found time for making babies. Let's get married and make a baby.

Well, yeah, you'd hate to leave your cousin alone for too long. I just can't resist my cousin. Ew! On September 16th, 1875, Mary Francis Penny gave birth to a baby boy, James Cash Penny Jr., the hero of our tale. He was the seventh of 12 children. Holy. However, only six children lived to adulthood.

Such was life in old-timey times. The middle name Cash was extremely fitting, considering James Cash Penny Jr.'s career later in life. However, he didn't get the name because his parents loved Cash. It actually came from a family friend and a fellow Baptist preacher by the name of Warren Cash. Okay, it is funny you said that because when you first said his name, at the beginning of this episode. I was like, oh, his parents were all cute and all into the money thing. Nope.

But then you described them more and how much they loved the bluegrass, just a rolling hills. Yeah. Okay, this makes sense. Yeah. It was like Johnny Cash. It's exactly like Johnny Cash, except it's not. I'm talking about the middle name. But anyway, go ahead.

Well, he's named after a guy named Warren Cash. Yeah. I fell into a burn. and ring of bluegrass. That is terrible. How dare you? Oh, wow. So you can sing, but I can't?

Yes, that's exactly what I say and everyone who just heard that will say. Okay. Well, let me continue my story then. James Cash Penny Jr. got the nickname Jim, or Jimmy, to differentiate him from his father. But from here on out in this episode, I'll be referring to him as J.C. Penny. Yeah. The man, the myth, the legend. When J.C. Penny was about three years old, his parents, Mary and James decided that all of their children were going to get a good education. And so Mary insisted that they should live in Hamilton near the schools. Another reason, Mary was fucking sick of the harsh Missouri winters. And she wanted to be in town for the amenities. Me too, Mary. Me too.

Yeah. Every time it starts getting cold in Missouri, you are ready to pack up and leave. Mm-hmm. So the pennies took out another mortgage on their farm, and they bought a small house in Hamilton, Missouri. That made their financial situation even harder. But James Penny didn't seem phased at all. As a deeply religious man, he believed that life was eternal, that time on earth was only temporary. Money was a necessity, sure, but it wasn't everything. He preached. self-reliance. It was the difference between a good life and a wasted life, and he passed those beliefs onto his children. J.C. Penny recalled that his father would often say, if I had 10 boys and a million dollars, I wouldn't give him a dime. According to historian Mary Elizabeth Curry, James Penny was, quote, strict but sensitive. He cared about the example he set and examples

his children saw. As befitted a minister and educated person, his standards were high. But it's not like James Penny had a stick up to butt. The pennies were a happy Midwestern family. They told jokes. In the evenings, they gathered around the piano and sang songs. They did Bible readings together. They traveled 12 miles to church every Sunday on horse and buggy. Jeez.

They also worked the farm together. As a child, J.C. Penny learned the ins and outs of farming. He took care of cows, horses, pigs, chickens. His father gave him a little plot of land to learn how to plant crops. and harvest them. But when he wasn't working, J.C. Penny also enjoyed being a kid. On hot summer days,

nothing was more fun than taking a dip in Tony's Hole. It was not called Tony's Hole. It was called Tony's Hole. I should emphasize that's a watering hole. Kristen, get your mind out of the gutter. You, the way you said it left me no choice but to giggle. I hear that it's next to Ball's Bluff. Isn't that interesting?

Tony's hole is on the opposite side of the state of where Ball's Bluff is. That's right. That's right. That's true. Also, never use that disgusting sound again. Thank you very much. Oh, we'll watch this. Okay, that's the sound.

That sounds just called Splat, by the way. It's great. That sound is the sound of everyone turning this episode off. By the way, do you need to stop and get more coffee? You just blew through it. Well, if Tony's hole was a little too crowded, J.C. Penny also like to swim in a nearby creek called Lick Fork Creek. Norman.

Yes, I'm stating facts on this podcast. Okay, okay. I'm sorry. I apologize. Sometimes it's hard to know where the real story begins and the jokes end or what am I trying to say. Anyway, go ahead. I could have come up with a better joke than lick for. Cork Creek. Come on. Okay. All right. You know, I do love when we go on road trips, like looking at the names of random creeks and towns and just like, how did they come up with this?

J.C. Penny enjoyed fishing, too, sometimes as a treat. His mom would fry up the catfish. He caught that date. That was his favorite meal. I had some fried catfish today. I was going to say, is that why you chose catfish? No, legit. I just thought it looked real good. Okay. Okay. But those days of play were few and far between for J.C. Penny because money troubles were catching up to them. They had multiple mortgages. Produce and livestock prices were dropping. And that would become a contentious political issue in the area. So when J.C. Penny was about eight years old, his father, James, came to him and said, Jim, I just want you to understand from now on, you'll be buying your own clothes. J.C. Penny was pretty upset about it. He was like, but dad, my shoes have holes in them. My clothes are kind of a mess. Do you think you could buy me new stuff this year and like next year I can start buying stuff on my own? James Penny replied, no, you'll have to figure something out. That's the way it'll have to be now.

Okay, remind me again. How old was he? Eight. Oh. So you're eight years old. You have no money. You don't get an allowance. You aren't getting paid to work on the farm. What's a young boy to do? You know, Kristen, I'm like J.C. Penny in many ways. Okay. Handsome. Oh. Rich.

Oh. Successful. Okay. Also, when I was a kid, I had to rake and bag leaves around the entire yard for a dollar. Yes, it's true. My mom took advantage of me. Child labor. Uh-huh.

I mean, all that work for a dollar, like I want to pretend you're being dramatic, but you're really not. That's a big yard. It is. And she knew you didn't have other employment opportunities. She did know that. And you know what? I was really happy with that dollar.

It was only when I was adult that I realized. Damn, she ripped me off. You know, me raking those leaves. It's very similar to what J.C. Penny went through. To earn money, he ran errands around town, earning five cents here and there. He sold lemonade. And eventually he saved up a dollar. And that was enough for him to buy a new pair of shoes.

But those shoes were awful. They were ugly. J.C. Penny said they were made of cheap cowhide leather and wooden pegs. Oh, God. And they had a cheap crappy buckle for fastening. They were uncomfortable. Yeah. He said he was really disappointed in the shoes.

But also, he was proud of himself because he bought him himself. Yeah. He was being self-reliant. But now J.C. Penny was broke. Broke with a new pair of crappy shoes. Those stupid shoes taught J.C. Penny about quality and saving your money. The key was to not only save money, but find ways to earn more money so you can buy better quality things. I feel like I am listening to a podcast.

Rich dad, poor dead. Yes. You know what? See, the key is you don't just make more money. You also save the money. You know, maybe we can corner that market too. Oh, all right. We're already number one in the history charts.

Are we? Mm-hmm. Listen, we can just make stuff up now. We live in a world where facts don't matter anymore. That's good because I've been burdened by facts my whole life. Me too. It's the facts that kept me from getting a perfect SAT score. Damn.

You did well for yourself, though. Thank you. So, yeah, J.C. Penny was like, Like, I got to find ways to earn more money, save my money. So that's what he did. He ran more errands. He sold more lemonade. And when he had saved up around $2.50, adjust for inflation, $80.

He bought himself a pig. Wow. Okay. Jay C. Penny's plan was to raise pigs, fatten them up, grease them up real good, and then sell them for a hefty profit. Bazinga. I mean, that's really smart. I doubt he greased him up. That's just you adding your own spin on things.

Where did I read that? I'm not sure. Well, just like I told you, facts don't matter. Okay. Who knows what I'm making up in this story. Oh, great. I'm just kidding, folks. I assure you, I do my research.

Vaccines are dangerous. Okay. Just kidding. So he's got this pig. He fattened it up. He greased it up. And he sold that first pig for a hefty profit. And then he used that money to,

to buy more pigs. Eventually, J.C. Penny had 12 pigs, and he thought, holy smokes, imagine all the money I'm going to make with these big, fat, greasy pigs. I'll be able to get some Louis Vuitton shoes. Oh, yeah. That I made

up. But those dreams were shattered when one day his father came to him and said, Jim, I need some money. No. Oh. He said, Jim, you got to sell those big, fat, stinky, greasy pigs. And you do it right now.

J.C. Penny was shocked. He was like, but dad, why? They're not fat enough yet. But his dad insisted, he said, Jim, the neighbors are complaining. Oh. Those pigs are loud. They smell terrible. Get rid of them.

James Penny was a true believer in the golden rule. Treat others the way you would want to be treated. And James thought, damn, it would really suck to have to hear and see. smell big fat, greasy pigs all day. So, J.C. Penny did as he was told, even though it was the off season for pork, and the pigs weren't very fat. He sold all 12 of them. Despite this, it was a successful business venture.

J.C. Penny managed to turn $2.50 into $60. The just for inflation, about $2,000. That's great. Very expensive. That's not bad for an eight-year-old. No. Yeah. He also learned a valuable lesson from his father.

You should always put people before profits. From there, J.C. Penny looked for new ways to earn money. His next job was a grocery store delivery boy. But that job didn't last long. His dad made him quit that job. Okay. Is his dad maybe a little jealous of him? I don't think so. Okay.

So why did he make him quit that job? Well, James Penny learned that the grocery store owner was putting cheap coffee beans into canisters of high-priced beans. And James said, I don't want my son working for a dishonest man. Okay. J.C. Penny was like, okay, fine, I'll do something else. So his next idea was, watermelons. People love watermelons, especially in the summertime. J.C. Penny grew a batch, and then he set up a wagon outside the county fair entrance.

It was one of the most popular events in Caldwell County. And he yelled to attendees, here they are, folks. Get them, get them, get them. Nice, sweet. Watermelons, fine, sound. Take them home with you. Ten cents for a big one. A nickel for the smaller ones.

Get them, folks. Get them right here. All right. Sure enough, people started lining up to buy watermelons. And as he sold those melons, J.C. Penny noticed, out of the corner of his eye, his dad. He's just standing there. Menacingly.

What do you mean? What do you mean? What did I do now? His dad came up to him and said, in front of everybody. Jim, pack up the wagon and go home. You are disgracing the penny name. J.C. Penny was like,

What the fuck? What the fuck? He was like, Dad, you're embarrassing me. But James Penny was like, I don't want to hear it. Get your ass home. So J.C. Penny packed up the wagon and he went home. And later, his father went up to him and said, son, don't you know what you were doing?

J.C. Penny replied, no. not really. Do you want to guess why his father was upset? Tell me. His dad said, you know, the folks selling stuff inside the county fair, they had to pay for that privilege. And J.C. Penny was like, but dad, I wasn't inside the fair. I was outside of the fair. And his dad replied, exactly, you were taking trade away from others without paying for the privilege on a par with them. That's unfair dealing. And you should have had the sense to know it. Don't ever let me see a son of mine take advantage of others for his own benefit.

You don't like this, do you? No, I don't. What? Okay, first of all, logically, sure. That makes total sense, and that's great. Same with the grocery store owner guy. You know. Oh, you said it.

I said it correctly there. Yeah. Yeah, I can see, well, I don't want my child working for someone who's unethical. They could pick up bad practices. Like, that's just not something I want. But it just seems like this dad is kind of stopping him at every turn and not giving him much guidance in the beginning. And I just kind of think you can't tell your eight-year-old, hey, you're in charge of buying your own clothing without. helping them more along the way.

Well, he was a big believer in self-reliance. You know, figure it out for yourself. Yeah, and that is good. Sometimes you got to learn those hard lessons by yourself. And he was fiercely independent, and he wanted his children to be fiercely independent. I will say a lot of these stories. They come from J.C. Penny himself. Sure, sure.

It would not surprise me if some of these stories were made up. Of course. Anything else? I do have bitchy things to say. Do you want to keep going? Well, I'm just, his dad's fiercely independent. Okay. But he's got multiple mortgages out.

He does. Does he think the banks are super ethical? I don't know. I bet you he doesn't. And yet it's okay for him to do this. I, you know, it's just, okay, anyhow, go ahead. I'm being rude, I'm being rude. Ooh, well, maybe you'll learn a little bit more about James Penny and you'll grow to like him.

Okay. Jay C. Penny said that at the time he was really hurt by his father's actions. Yeah. It seemed as if his dad was stopping him from being successful, from being self-reliant. Right. But J.C. Penny admitted that those lessons really soaked in for him and kind of guided him on how to run his own business. Now, he didn't become exactly like his father because J.C. Penny did think money was very, very important.

Mm-hmm. But his father helped him lay the foundations on the right way to make money. Honesty, integrity, the golden rule. His father also taught him to be individualistic,

to believe in yourself and be who you are. And this principle got James Penny into some trouble at church. You see, James Penny was a Baptist preacher,

but he was sort of a progressive preacher. Uh-oh. He added, advocated for these wacky ideas, Kristen, like ministers should have a salary. And Sunday school for children? What? Yes, believe it or not, Sunday school was a pretty controversial thing in those days.

And not because it was boring as hell. Oh. That was my experience anyway. Many families believed it wasn't the church's role to educate their children. Some people found it suspicious. Rich folks hated it. because it educated the working class. And, oh, no, the plebs might realize they're being taken advantage of and rise up.

Oh. But James Penny believed that every child at the Log Creek Church should attend Sunday school, and he preached about it constantly, despite the congregation being very against the idea. But James didn't care because he believed that was right. Well, in 1889, the Log Creek Church had had enough of James Penny, and his free-thinking ways, and they excommunicated him from the church. J.C. Penny couldn't believe it. His father had worked tirelessly to help the church and the community, and they were just throwing them out for trying to help people. No good deed goes unpunished.

And J.C. Penny never forgot about it. It was a major reason why he didn't follow in his father's footsteps and become a minister himself. However, he once again learned some valuable lessons from that whole experience. The first was loyalty. When his father was excommunicated, the church told J.C. Penny's mother, Mary, oh, well, you should still attend the church, Mary. You know, you didn't do anything wrong. But Mary Penny refused. She was fiercely loyal to her husband, and she replied, you must include me in this excommunication. Mary Penny was furious, but James Penny seemed fine.

He wasn't bitter about it at all. He told J.C. Penny, Jim, people see things as they see them. It can take time for ideas to take hold. Be who you are. Stay the course and believe in yourself. Okay, I do love all of that. Yeah. And that was the second lesson J.C. Penny learned. Don't harbor resentment. So James Penny's no longer the minister at the Log Creek Church. But he still wanted to be a leader and be involved in the community. So, Kristen, what do you think James Penny decided to get involved? in. Oh, did they have moose lodges back in the day? Moose lodges. For some reason, I immediately thought of moose munch. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, no, he got involved in politics. Oh. Oh. Okay. So, James Penny had actually dabbled in politics before.

Four years earlier in 1886, he had ran for a seat in the Missouri House. That year, there was a terrible drought, and farmers felt, like the government was kind of leaving them out to dry, no pun intended. But James Penny lost that election for two reasons. One reason, his controversial past as a member of the secessionist militia. James argued that I was just a kid and most boys my age joined the militia. Besides, I didn't join the Confederate Army. I swore an oath to the union.

The Hitler Youth was a social club. Oh, Kristen. Yeah. It kind of was. The other knock against him was his alleged support of the current Democratic governor, Governor Marmaduke. Was it a big dog? I'm sorry.

A lot of people weren't fans of Governor Marmaduke because he was a big, clumsy, great dame, got into a lot of trouble. In fact, many people didn't think a dog could qualify as governor. Yeah. A court declared, ain't no rules say the dog can't be governor. So that's why you gave me that look. Not because you didn't enjoy my joke, but because I beat you to the punch. I did appreciate the joke.

You beat me to it. I had it written down here. I was cackling as I wrote it. I'm glad you thought of the same joke. Okay. In actuality, Governor Marmaduke was a former Confederate Major General. Oh. Who was against the temperance movement.

Remember the temperance movement? Wasn't that the no alcohol movement? Carrie Nation, baby. If you aren't familiar, the temperance movement was an effort to get rid of alcohol. It was taking off across the country, especially in the religious and rural areas of Caldwell County. In a previous episode of this small, independent, sexy podcast, Kristen Caruso, covered one of the temperance movement's greatest heroes, Carrie Nation. And she was swinging her hatchet not too far away in Kansas. Oh, she came to Missouri and did some damage, too.

Don't you worry. Yeah, that's true. What if she took a visit to Hamilton? Who knows? Well, James Penny was a big fan of the temperance movement. He was even the president of the Hamilton Temperance Club. Oh. So his alleged support of Governor Marmaduke rubbed people the wrong way.

James Penny denied he ever supported or worked for Governor Marmaduke. So yeah, James Penny ran for the house. He lost in 1886. But now it's 1890. And he was ready to try again because there were growing problems. in Hamilton, Missouri. The town was seeing a political and economical split. Republican businessmen and bankers were flocking to the area, and their interests were in keeping produce and livestock prices as low as possible. And that hurt farmers, because farmers wanted to see more profits

for their hard work. They wanted prices to go up. Many farmers had to take out ridiculous loans to stay afloat. And they had to take those loans from those Republican businessmen and bankers. So as a result, most farmers supported the Democrats,

who seemed to be the party of the working class. Emphasis on seem to be the party of the working class. But there were a few things about the Democratic Party that James Penny did not like.

Number one, they were kind of sexist. Okay. I shouldn't say kind of. They were sexist. Yeah. Number two, they were against the temperance movement.

James Penny was not alone in feeling this way. Many farmers felt the same way. And so a new party was born, a coalition of farmers who wanted equality, justice, and no more alcohol. And they were called the People's Party. Oh, that's cute. Isn't that a great name for a political party? Well, obviously not. Otherwise, it would have taken off. Yeah. Maybe we can bring it back. Okay. The People's Party. For the people. It'd be funny if it wasn't for the people. Yeah. I mean, that's what the Nazis did, basically.

What do you mean? They were the nationalist, socialist. Oh. But they weren't socialist at all. It was just like a marketing thing. Okay. Well, I'm glad that we've mentioned Nazis so many times in this episode. This episode has it all, baby, slavery.

Mormons, Nazis. Got everybody. Uh-huh. The People's Party believe they, that liquor was, quote, one of the greatest evils in our nation, and promised to ban it. They also advocated for women's suffrage, stating they wanted, quote, equal rights to all, regardless of sex. In 1890, James Penny was chosen as the People's Party nominee for the Missouri House race to represent Caldwell County. It was exciting. This could lead to big changes in Hamilton.

But sadly, the Democrat and Republican parties were way too strong. many folks were kind of leery of voting for a third party. Yeah. And some people tried to convince James Penny to just run as a Democrat. But James, the fierce independent thinker, refused. He said, quote, I will wear no brass collar. What does that mean? I won't be like a dog to a political party, basically.

Oh, because a marmaduke. Yeah, we get it. Just like marmaduke, yeah. It resulted in a big loss. In the 1890 election, James Penny received five. 564 votes. It's about a third of what the Republican and Democratic nominees got. It was a crushing defeat. But, you know, his son, J.C. Penny, he really admired his dad for running for office. And even though he lost, the community still respected the hell out of him.

And that respect eventually earned him a seat on the Hamilton Board of Education. By then, J.C. Penny was in high school. He was growing up, but he was very shy around his peers, very reserved. He didn't really have many friends, but J.C. Penny really started opening up after joining the school debate club. His classmates said he was a gifted orator. J.C. Penny fiercely defended his positions. And he got those skills from his dad. One debate topic was, is wealth more desirable than wisdom? J.C. Penny argued that it was.

Oh. He said, quote, if a man or woman has money, they are respected. by everyone. While on the other hand, the poor man is noticed by no one. All the important places of our government are occupied by the wealthy men, most of whom have millions of dollars. They never elect the poor man to these offices. It's easy to see why J.C. Penny believed this after his father's failed political campaign and the family's growing debt. In another debate about country life versus city life. J.C. Penny argued for that country life.

He believed that farmers were, quote, the bone and sinew of the country. Sinew, that's a word. I don't know what that means. Hmm. Do you? No. Norman!

You can't put a word in a script and not know what it means. It's a direct quote. Well, yeah, but you should look it up if you're going to include the direct quote. Well, fine. A piece of tough, fibrous tissue uniting muscle. Ah. There you go. I got to say, I'm kind of surprised by his take on that first one.

Why? Because that seems like the kind of question that a teacher poses to you, just fully expecting that you'll go for the heartfelt answer. And... Not a debate club. Debate club, sometimes they even assign you to what side you have to take. Sure, sure. So it doesn't surprise me. Okay.

So yeah, in the debate about country life for city life, J.C. Penny argued for the country life. And that belief would serve him later in deciding where to set up J.C. Penny department stores. In another debate about immigration, J.C. Penny was pro-immigration. He thought that people coming to the United States were eager to learn about hard work, morals, and they just wanted to help the country grow. And there was nothing more American than that. Jay C. Penny's stores would later sell goods to many immigrants working on the railroads, who experienced a lot of discrimination. J.C. Penny's speaking skills earned him a speech at his high school graduation, a class of 22. Hell yeah. His speech was about American prosperity, about how an individual's future was in their hands, and that was the American dream. James Penny listened proudly from the audience.

It was a great honor to see his son graduate because during this time only 5% of 17-year-olds in the United States got a high school diploma. Wow. Yeah. Chasey Penny had bigger dreams than a high school diploma, though. He loved learning. He loved debating.

And so he decided, I'm going to go to law school. But his dad was like... Oh, sweetheart, you don't need law school. Law schools for people who are boring and ugly and serious. And you, but, are none of those things. I can't believe you didn't include the whole quote.

I had to cut it off somehow. That's true. Okay, well, actually, James Penny was like, son, you'd make a great lawyer, but we don't have any money to send you to law school. Right. Chacey Penny visited family members asking for loans, but everyone turned them down.

No one had any money to spare. And the purse strings tightened even more that year, thanks to the panic of 1893. It was the worst economic depression in the United States ever. At that time, anyway, we had not yet hit the Great Depression. We know. That was my foot. Okay.

It was not my butt. Everyone, that was not my butt. I'm like 90% sure. You're 90% sure? Where's that 10% from? It might be seeping out of my butt. We don't know about the 10%. The panic of 1893 had many causes, droughts, poor crop production, railroad failures, bank failures, future topic?

Oh, God. Oh, thank God. No, no, we don't care. Well, we care, but not enough to do a whole episode, please. Yeah, I'm not really into that kind of stuff. But it's important I mention it in this episode. The panic of 1893 hit the farming community of Hamilton real hard. People were down bad.

With his law school dreams crush, J.C. Penny worked the family farm to help make ends meet. That's what I did after I dropped out of law school. You worked the family farm? That's right. I don't recall you doing that. I recall you watching every episode of Friday Night Lights. You know what? That's equally important work, okay?

And I won't hear another word about it. Good show. Great theme song. Meanwhile, the panic of 1893 motivated James. Penny to come out of political retirement for one last job. Wow. Is he actually going to get elected or? Let's find out.

In 1894, the People's Party nominated James Penny for the U.S. House of Representatives race. Not going to happen. Yeah. In retrospect, this seems like a really bad idea. James Penny couldn't even win a state election. Now they want him to run for the U.S. But he was well liked, he was well respected, he stood up for farmers. The People's Party thought the panic of 1893 would really change people's minds and vote for James Penny.

The Hamiltonian newspaper said Penny was, quote, A good selection of a man who is heart and soul in the work. The farmer's advocate newspaper agreed, stating, quote, if you are dissatisfied with the hard times, vote for Penny. If you want better prices for labor and the products of vote. labor, vote for penny. Opposition newspapers snarkily wrote, A penny is a rather small coin,

but it is all the populists could afford to risk on the congressional fight in the district. Oh, that is rude. Brutal. On election day in 1894, to absolutely no one's surprise, James Penny lost. He didn't even win the most votes in Caldwell County. Ouch. It was a pretty anticlimactic. ending to his political career.

But it was probably for the best because James Penny's health was deteriorating. He had an underlying heart condition. He couldn't really work the farm anymore. He knew that he probably didn't have much longer to live. So his new priority was making sure his family was taken care of. So he made some changes. James Penny finally leased out 225 acres of that bluegrass prairie. which turned into a profitable corn crop.

And then he wanted to make sure his children had a good future. He thought about his son, J.C. Penny. Jim. Jim was smart. He was resourceful. He could go on and do bigger and better things than simply being a farmer and Caldwell County. James Penny couldn't send his son to law school,

but maybe there was something else he could do. So in January of 1895, James Penny went into Hamilton, and he stopped by, the J.M. Hale and Brothers Dry Goods Store. You familiar with a dry goods store? Yeah, it's come up a couple times on this podcast. It's an old-timey thing.

Old-timey thing? It's literally what it sounds like. They only sold dry goods. No liquids allowed. You and your four drinks would be kicked out immediately, Kristen. What about a nice, moist snack cake? Would that be able to be in there? They actually have a moisture meter

and they stick it in everything you bring in the store. This cake is too moist. We will only have angel food. That's it. I bet they ran dehumidifiers. Constantly. People couldn't hear themselves think. Old-timey dehumidifiers.

It's just some guy with a hand crank. Uh-huh. Yeah. They only sold dry goods, clothing, textiles, toiletries, groceries, knick-knacks, stuff like that. So James Penny knew the owner of that store, a man named John Hale, and James asked him if he would hire his son, J.C. Penny, as a clerk and kind of teach him the business. John Hale was a little hesitant to do that. He was like, well, to tell you the truth, I don't need any more help.

And February is kind of a dull month. But John Hale wanted to help James Penny. His primary customer base was farmers. And James Penny was a big friend to the farmers. Okay. So John Hale said, I'll tell you what I'll do. If the boy wants to learn what he can of the business while he makes himself useful, I'll pay him $25 a year. Oh, that sounds like a rip off even back then. It was. I did not misspeak, $25 a year, adjusted for inflation, $84 a month. For how much work?

I mean, he worked every day. He had full-time work for $84 a month. Yeah. The pay was absolute shit. Yeah. But James Penny truly believed that long term, his son would learn the trade and be able to make way more money in the future. When James Penny told his son about the job, J.C. Penny was a little confused. Really? $25 a year to make more money greasing up pigs.

Absolutely. But J.C. Penny kind of liked the opportunity. He was like, you know, I'm a good speaker. I'm a hard worker. I think I'd be a really good salesman. So J.C. Penny took the job. And in February of 1895, he showed up for his first day of work at J.M. Hale and Brothers. Dry Good Store. And, Kristen, you want to talk about a small town. The local Hamiltonian newspaper wrote a little article about J.C. Penny's new job.

Oh! I love a small town newspaper. Boy, do you? You used to work at one. Yeah. Here's what it said. It said, quote, J.C. Penny, Jr., will be found in J.M. Hales and Brothers store where he is learning the business. Jim is a good boy and we believe he will succeed.

I love that. How degrading. Jim is a good boy. Actually, I'd feel good. If we got a review for the podcast that said Norm's a good boy and we believe the podcast will succeed, I'd like that. Please, someone do it. This man needs a boost. So yeah, he took the job.

But it didn't start out very well for him. The older, more experienced salespeople, they teased J.C. Penny constantly. They're like, who's this kid? He doesn't know anything about selling stuff. Okay, well, he's getting paid like half a penny a day, so maybe take it easy on him. They stole sales from them. When J.C. Penny would greet a customer, another associate would swoop in and be like, oh, Mr. Hale asked me to help this customer.

You don't really know what you're doing yet. Are they working on commission? I believe so. Okay, because I was going to say that really wouldn't matter if they weren't. J.C. Penny wasn't really sure what to do. He thought John Hale was probably going to fire him if he didn't start selling stuff. But maybe he could help in other ways. And so that self-reliance kicked in.

J.C. Penny found work to do. He swept the floors. He swept the sidewalks. He organized inventory. He folded clothes. He set up attractive displays of products. I mean, the store looked immaculate. Things were getting better for him at work, but back home, not so much.

There was a melancholy atmosphere. For the past six weeks, James Penny had been confined to a bed with consumption, aka tuberculosis. Oh, damn it. You said it perfectly that time. James Penny was dying. In his final days, James Penny thought about his children's future. His daughter, Middy, was now married and had her own friends. farm with her husband. His son, Eli, had his own farm and family now, too. And then there was his son,

James Cash Penny Jr., Jim. He was young, just out of high school, but he was doing well at the dry goods store, and maybe one day he would be running his own store. James smiled and whispered, Jim will make it. I like the way he started out. On March 22nd, 1895, James Penny passed away. He was 53 years old. The Hamilton community was heartbroken. James Penny was highly respected for his honesty, his kindness, his individualism, his moral leadership. J.C. Penny was devastated by the loss of his father.

He later wrote, He had no money to leave me. But he left me a spiritual legacy, which time and again was to lift me consciously out of dark depression to a clearer path of fresh striving and courage. J.C. Penny was more determined than ever to make it at work. He wanted to not only help himself, but help his widowed mother, Mary, who now was solely responsible for all that debt. Yeah. Jay C. Penny's hard work paid off. He slowly started getting sales, and along the way, he learned valuable lessons in being a salesman. Owner John Hale taught him that anyone can sell new stock. That's really easy, because people want new stuff.

But old stock, the stuff going out of style or out of season, only a real salesman can sell that. And that's where stores see real profits. One time a woman came into the store looking for a corset. J.C. Penny went and grabbed her size, but he noticed the box was like really beat up. It was old product. But J.C. Penny thought, I've got this sale in the bag. He took the corset to the woman and was like, hey, you're in luck. This is one of the few we have left.

It's the latest fashion, and it's your exact size. But before Penny could make the sale, a fellow employee interrupted. A young saleswoman named Maria Austin Young. Do we hate her? Do we love her? We love her. Okay. She said, I'm sorry, ma'am. Jim isn't familiar with our stock.

I'll help you. J.C. Penny was like, you took my sale. Yeah. And it was old stock. We're trying to get rid of that stuff. Maria Austin Young told him, Yeah, I know, but you lied to that customer. That's not the latest fashion.

And besides, you were trying to sell her a nursing corset. Oh. Oops. From there, Maria Austin Young kind of took J.C. Penny under her wing. She taught him more lessons in sales. Yes, selling old stock's important. But be honest about it. And you need to know your product to sell it.

J.C. Penny took those lessons to heart, and he used some of his debating skills to help make sales. Facts, logic, and persuasion was an easy way to sell merchandise. And he did well. Maria Austin Young said that J.C. Penny was, quote, a very ordinary boy, except for his industry and determination. He was a tireless worker. By the end of the year, he was ranked the third best salesman out of seven. owner John Hale gave him a raise. Penny would now make $200 a year instead of $25.

Okay. Adjusted for inflation, he made about $7,500 a year. The next year, J.C. Penny got another raise, $300 a year. It's about $11,500 today. During J.C. Penny's time, J.M. Hale and Brothers Dry Good Store became the dry goods store in Hamilton. Yeah. They were doing things that a lot of other stores were not doing. They had regular sales on products to entice customers.

John Hale studied the community and learned what people needed. They kept prices affordable. And J.C. Penny reaped the rewards. He was making more money than ever and saving a lot of it. But all that hard work was taking a toll on his body. J.C. Penny admitted that the, quote, driving anxiety to get ahead made him safe. sick. A doctor took a look at him and said, Jim, you are physically worn down. J.C. Penny replied,

but I can't stop working. The doctor replied, well, you can stop now or your body will do it for you. The doctor was concerned that before too long, J.C. Penny would be consumptive, aka tuberculosis. Did you practice how to say that word? I did. Everyone, it's a sad day. Normie C. used to say it tuberculosis. Tuberculosis. And I loved it. That was the disease that killed his dad. Yeah. Well, the doctor's suggestion, J.C. Penny should live in a healthier environment.

You should go somewhere where the air is cleaner and drier. It'll be good for your lungs and you'll recover. But J.C. Penny hated that idea. He was doing so well at the dry goods store. He didn't want to leave his mom, who was working her butt off. to keep the farm afloat. Mary Francis Penny was planting a ton of crops. She made bread daily and sold it to neighbors. She milked the cows. Every single cent she earned went toward the mortgage.

And J.C. Penny helped her out too, and he worried that his mom wouldn't last without him. But Mary, Francis Penny, told her son, Jim, you've got to think of yourself. The Lord never leaves his children defenseless. You must go west. Have faith. you'll see. Well, that's all he needed to hear. In the summer of 1897,

J.C. Penny put in his notice at J.M. Hale and Brothers Dry Good Store. He acquired a few letters of recommendation, and he withdrew his savings from the bank. And on June 7, 1897, he left Hamilton, Missouri, hopped on a train heading for Kansas City. From there, he would venture out west.

J.C. Penny was 21 years old, five foot eight inches tall. 135 pounds, skinny as a green bean. He was on his way to a place where no one knew who he was. His father had always preached about individualism and self-reliance. Being in a new place was the perfect way to put those skills to the test. On the next episode, open old tiny podcast. J.C. Penny heads to Colorado.

Oh. Did not see that coming. No? No. Where'd you think he was going to go? I kind of thought he'd hop off in Kansas City. California? Yeah, it'd be done.

No, he's going to Kansas City to then go west. Yeah, yeah, I got you. I got you. Okay, Norm, I've enjoyed your context. You've loaded us up with context here. I have. As only a Normy C can. I have, despite my better judgment.

I am kind of fascinated by this guy now. Why? I don't know. There's something about. really hard work coupled with fear and anxiety. I mean, the stakes are really high. Yeah, it's got to be scary to leave home at that age, start something new in a place you've never been before. And also, he, you know, he was sick. So like, well, and I'm thinking about his mom. Yeah, and his mom's, yeah, she's got a lot of debt and a giant farm. Now, she had other sons to help her,

but, you know, like I said, J.C. Penny was making the most money. Yeah. And helping out a lot. Well done, Norm. Thank you. And now that you've done all that, let me do a thing or two. Oh, what'd you got? I would like to read you some ratings and reviews of this very podcast.

Are you ready? I do hope someone does leave a review this as Norm is a good boy in this podcast will succeed. Folks, if you haven't already, please, give us a five-star rating. won't you? Wherever you listen to podcasts and a nice little write-up, we'd appreciate it. It helps promote small, sexy, independent podcasts, just like this one right here. Or you could leave a comment on Spotify, which is a thing now, apparently. Yeah, we didn't know it was a thing. Probably should have known, but we're just a little late to the game, and boy, are we happy that that's happening. We are the sloths of the podcast world. Okay, the title of this review is, I love this

podcast, even if they hate me in Indiana. Oh, no, we did talk bad about Indiana. You talked bad. I did not, because I am the Grace Kelly of podcasting. Right. Meanwhile, you're a big jerk. I'm a bitch, as you called me the other night. Five stars.

Username is Colbury Cheese. Ooh. The body of the review reads, When Kristen wants her vacation in Indiana, reach out. and I'll make sure you have a good time. Normie C should stay home and keep hating us, but I'll send you some Albanese. Thanks for pointing out the small group in Indiana

that stays on central time. Yay! See, I do care about Indiana a little bit. Yeah, you care enough to locate it on a map and say, yeah, just cut this section out right here. Let them be their own thing. Like, in my defense, as I said before, I've only driven through Indiana, and it's just a hellish hour of driving, okay?

You ready for the next one? Yep. Title of this one is OTP has ruined all other podcasts for me. Oh, no. Five stars. Username is Hockwig, and the body of the review reads, When I listen to other podcasts, I have to add the sound effects in myself. Bush League!

Yeah. Yeah, we've got some great stuff on this soundboard here. Oh, boy, let's hear some right now, please. I'm an old man. There you go. Sexy times. Okay, we didn't need that one. Sexy times.

Sexy times. Oh. Okay. Last one? Yep. The title of this one is Love, Love, Love. Five stars. This comes from Desert Bunny 13.

They say, I love my wife. It says, fabulous that's it no exclamation point no period no question mark no nothing

just fabulous thank you desert bunny 13 is it in all caps at least or is it nope just the F is capitalized that's incredible it's a minimalist review I like it

and we enjoy it norm you hit that fart sound pretty hard do you want to tell the people the prank you pulled on me the other day oh this was a good prank It was pretty good.

Okay. So, Kristen was going. Where were you going? Nania. She had to leave somewhere. She's like, I'm going to the gym. I'm going somewhere. Uh-huh.

And she hops in the car. And I was in the kitchen and my phone automatically connected to the car. And I was like, oh, I'm going to get her. I quickly pulled up fart sounds on YouTube and just started playing them. And of course, the audio will come through in the car. where Kristen is. And I didn't know how she felt about until she got home, but I was cracking up just thinking about her listening to fart sounds and wondering where it was coming from. You know, I questioned my maturity on a regular basis. And I questioned it hard that day because

when I got in the car, turned it on and just heard just a chorus of farts, I was giggling, giggling, giggling. I pulled out of the house, still giggling, more farts, drove down the road, still giggling. I giggled until I lost signal with your phone. So if you're looking for a fun prank to play on a loved one, we highly recommend that one. Just be nearby when they get in the car. And on that note, should we wrap things up? Let's do it. You know what they say about history hoes. We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from,

The Books. Creating an American Institution, the merchandising genius of J.C. Penny by Mary Elizabeth Curry. J.C. Penny, The Man, The Store, an American Agriculture by David Kruger. And 50 Years with the Golden Rule by James Cash Penny Jr. Sounds like J.C. Penny propaganda. It is. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen. to podcasts and while you're at it, subscribe.

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Mother's Day coming up. Give the gift of the Patreon. What would Anna Jarvis say about that? My God. Join the Reddit community, R slash Old Timey Podcast.

Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. She is the glorious Kristen Pitts-Karuso. I go by a gaming historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata and Cheerio. Bye.

Bye.