An Old Timey Podcast - 54: JC Penney Was a Hustler! (Part 2)

Episode Date: May 14, 2025

Say what you will about James Cash Penney Jr. Just don’t say he didn’t work his booty off. After he left his hometown, James tried desperately to succeed as a businessman. He found work as a sales person. He bought a struggling butcher shop/bakery. With each effort came failure. Then he discovered a new kind of business. It was called the Golden Rule Dry Goods Store. The store featured low-priced goods in a clean environment. The store owners treated their customers with respect. James went to the store, hoping to be hired. He knew that if he could get his foot in the door, he’d one day find success. Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Norm pulled from: Currey, Mary Elizabeth. Creating an American Institution: The Merchandising Genius of J.C. Penney. Dissertations-G, 1993.Kruger, David Delbert. J.C. Penney: The Man, the Store, and American Agriculture. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2017.Penney, James Cash. Fifty Years with the Golden Rule. Harper and Brothers, 1950.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Norman Caruso. And I'm Kristen Caruso. And on this episode, it's part two of my series on J.C. Penny. Oh my gosh, Norm, the reviews are in. People are surprisingly excited about J.C. Penny. Maybe a little too excited. No kidding. I think everyone has been wearing their Arizona jeans, putting on their St. John's Bay's finest, and they are ready for this. series. I said for far too long, no one has talked about J.C. Penny. My time has come. Yeah, thank you all for the kind feedback on part one. Very excited to tell you the rest of this story. We've gotten a lot of comments that say Norm is a good boy and this podcast is doing well. So people are doing their homework, you know? Yeah. Seems kind of silly that you assign that as homework to people.

Here we are. Ready to learn more about the man, the myth, the legend, J.C. Penny. He will be a legend no more after this series. What are you? Oh, no. Well, he won't be a legend because, like, you'll know the story. It's like the truth.

Oh, I thought you. Norm, I thought Secret Nazi. That's what I thought. Oh, God, no. Yeah, you, okay, well. No, sorry. Sorry, did I get, like, maybe I'm not saying the definition of a legend, right? Yeah, I feel like you might want to hit up.

Webster's for the definition of legend. And while you do that, I should plug our Patreon. Our legendary Patreon. Yes. No Nazis there. We're pretty sure. We're always checking. We did have Adolf Hitler on as a guest.

Yeah, but he hates the podcast. That's true. Hades the podcast. And this is a true story. Everyone on our Patreon, if they have a Tesla, they bought it years ago. And they've got the bumper sticker that explains the situation. Don't worry. Okay.

Now, if you want to join this Patreon, and of course you do, why wouldn't you? There's no reason why you wouldn't. You just got to get on over there to patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Let me tell you what happens at the $5 level. You're not ready. What happens is... Backrubs? You get...

Ew. No, no one's going to touch you. There be a sweet deal for five bucks. I would be so... alarmed if someone offered me a massage for just five dollars. That's too low. It's too low of a price. I mean, it's like the joke about Arby's. Right. The, uh, the, uh, five for $10 roast beef sandwiches. It makes us all uncomfortable. Please charge more. We'll feel better about it. Anyhow, you really derailed me, sir. I, I apologize. A $5 massage will do that. At the $5 level,

no one will touch you. Instead, we will give you. immediate access to all of our bonus episodes. And boy, are they stellar. They come in video form, my friend. You could just listen if you just want to listen, but I recommend the video. We've got some funny episodes on there. Also some sad ones, now that I'm thinking about the one we just released.

And some gross ones. Well, yeah. I'm responsible for those. Something for everybody, really. You also get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away. And hold on. What's that? What's that?

What is it? You're saying you really love this podcast? You're saying you do want Norm's $5 back rub? Well, head on over to the $10 level. That's the pig butter investor tier. We don't give backrubs on the $10. Norm will show up at your house with a bottle of lavender massage oil. Make sure you put the correct address in Patreon because I want to show up at some random person's house.

Yeah, he doesn't want to look like a creed. oil and say, I'm here for the massage. At the $10 level, you get all the things I just mentioned, plus a card with stickers and our lovely autographs. My goodness. Of course, you know, Norm will also hand-deliver that and it'll be covered in oil. I don't know if that affects the monetary value. Hopefully not.

You also get 10% off merch. Do we have any merch in the merch store right now? No. Don't worry about it. That's just something you'll enjoy. later maybe also though you get early ad-free episodes video episodes of this podcast can you tell i didn't write this plug down we can all tell christmas absolutely the ADHD is firing on all cylinders oh and what's that what's that you miss my old rotten decrepit podcast let's go to court don't worry baby

you sign up on our patreon you get all the bonus episodes for that podcast plus ad free episodes of that podcast as well. My goodness, what more could a person want? Nothing. A $2 massage? I don't recommend it. How about the end of this Patreon plug? Norman! Norm's a man who likes structure. And that's what keeps it so spicy in this relationship.

That's right. Pure chaos coupled with a man who says, is that floor level? Doesn't look level. Hang on, let me get my level. I do have a few levels I know Got a nice four-foot one Oh my god It's my favorite

Okay Patreon.com slash old-timey podcast Thank you all very much And with that Let's jump into part two Of my series On James Cash

Penny Jr But before we dive into part two Let's recap Part 1 Previously We learned about The Humble beginnings Of the man

Who created America's Greatest Department Store Okay well maybe James Cash Penny Jr. a.k.a. J. C. Penny. Got something to say, Kristen? Have you heard of Nordstrom? I do love Nordstrom. Continue. But it's no J.C. Penny. J.C. Penny was born in 1875 in Hamilton, Missouri, a small railroad and farming town about 70 miles northeast of Kansas City.

His father, James Penny, was a Baptist preacher, a politician, although not a very good one, and a well-respected leader in the community. James Penny was a strong, sensitive man. believed in self-reliance, honesty, and the golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated, and he instilled those ideals into his children, including J.C. Penny. They would serve him throughout his life. J.C. Penny had to learn quickly, though, because his family was poor. At the right-bold age of eight, his father told him he had to start buying his own clothes. Thus began J.C. Penny's lifelong career in business, and along the way, he learned valuable lessons. First, He tried raising pigs.

If he got him real fat, stinky, and greasy, J.C. Penny could really bring home the bacon. But his father told him to get rid of those damn pigs. Why? The neighbors were complaining. The lesson? Put people before profits. Or pigs. Next, J.C. Penny worked as a grocery store delivery boy. But his dad made him quit that job, too.

Why? He discovered the grocery store owner Say it with me, Kristen. Well said Norm, grocery store owner. We say it just fine on this podcast, never had a problem with it. Yeah, we might have to roll the tape on that one. Well, James Penny discovered that owner was putting cheap coffee beans into expensive brand canisters. The lesson? Work with integrity.

J.C. Penny's final idea was to sell watermelons outside the county fair. But then his dad shut that down, too. He thought his son was taking advantage. of sellers inside the fairgrounds who had paid for the right to be there. The lesson, be fair to others. J.C. Penny was like, damn, dad, go easy on me. I'm eight fucking years old. Oh, language. I know. But those lessons were valuable to him. He was learning the qualities of being a good

businessman. But after high school, J.C. Penny sought a different path. He wanted to be a lawyer. Unfortunately, he soon learned that wasn't an option. His family had no money to send him to law school. James Penny knew his son was smart and would succeed. He wanted him to have a better life than he did, so he got his son a job at the local dry goods store, a place that, you guessed it, only sold dry goods, clothes, textiles, accessories, groceries, and more. The pay was insulting, but J.C. Penny learned the business.

He became a great salesman. He kept the store clean. He organized inventory. He was thriving at this new job, and he really enjoyed it. The Hamiltonian newspaper was correct when it predicted that Jim is a good boy and we believe he will succeed. J.C. Penny's father felt like he was going to go places. Unfortunately, James Penny wouldn't live to see his son's success. In 1895, he passed away at the age of 53. J.C. Penny was devastated.

He had learned just about everything from his dad. Now he was gone. That loss motivated J.C. Penny more than ever. to succeed. He worked tirelessly. Eventually, that hard work caught up to him. His body was exhausted. He was at risk of contracting tuberculosis, aka consumption. J.C. Penny's doctor recommended he head out west to a better climate so he could recover. And so that's what he did. In June of 1897, the bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, 21-year-old J.C. Penny hopped on a train to Kansas City, Missouri. From there, he would venture out west.

And that is where we will pick up our story today. Had he heard of an epilator? Uh-huh. What? An epilator? What's that? Something to take care of that bushy tail. What the hell does that mean? That was just a joke.

What's an epilator? It's a terrible device. I fell for it online, Norm. It costs us a good 80 bucks. It's a hair removal device. What? You bought this thing? Yeah, it's a hair removal device that people are like, oh, it does hurt a little, but then you get used to it.

Let me tell you something. I tried it yesterday. I don't know, man. I want to hold all those influencers down and personally tweez out all the hairs on their body as revenge. Wait, wait, wait, wait, how does it remove hair? Please provide more detail on this device. I don't know how this torture contraption works exactly. but it's supposed to basically

tweez a bunch of your hairs all at the same time. It's horrifying. Tweed them at the same time? I mean, I'm tempted to go get it and use it on you. You should. After we do the episode,

I think we should try it. Okay. Tweezing two hairs at the same damn time. Oh, you'll wish it was only two hairs. Tweeding 50 hairs at the same hair time. Right in the butt crack. Where do you use an epaulator? Well, I thought I would be pretty bold with it, but then I tried it on a few places.

Where did you use it? Don't worry. You know, this is the top of the episode. This is no time. I don't know why you brought it up, frankly. Hmm. I think we all know who actually brought it up. Continue, please, with the episode.

So, Kristen, J.C. Penny was on a train heading out west. Ugh. Damn good movie. Yep. But Kristen, he wasn't going to some tiny dust bowl town with a corrupt sheriff and four. former outlaws who always say, I don't do that stuff no more. You know what I'm talking about.

We all know what you're talking about. No, no, no, no. Jay C. Penny was on his way to beautiful Denver, Colorado. Oh, okay. At the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. Colorado was a booming state, thanks to the mining industry. During the 1890s, Colorado's population increased by 30% to 1.5 million people, adjusted for inflation, there were 20 billion people living in Colorado.

Wow. And Denver was the biggest city by far because it was the primary railroad hub. And the people living in Denver had money. There were a ton of businesses, banks, concert halls, big mansions with gorgeous architecture. Do you know about some of the cool stories? Get that future topic sound ready. There was a madam who like ran Denver. Really?

I'm pretty sure. If not, we'll have to cut this, and boy, will I be embarrassed. But I've looked into her for a future topic. Oh, Normad! I don't have the ding. Wow. So I need to fart. Great.

So J.C. Penny arrived, and he was a little taken aback by the sights and sounds of Denver. It was such a big change from his home in Hamilton, Missouri. But there was no time to relax because he needed a job. Now, his doctor... The whole point in going out there was to relax, right? Yeah, but he needed money, too. You got to live, baby. Sure.

Okay. Now, his doctor had recommended he get a job outside, you know, for his health. Get some fresh air. Mm-hmm. But that idea got thrown on the back burner when J.C. Penny saw the department stores in Denver. They were enormous. These stores were fancy compared to the dry goods store back home. Uniformed attendance to check your bicycle at the door

Oh Daily advertisements and newspapers Storewide sales The finest clothing Home appliances like iceboxes or ice cream makers curtains Baby carriages Clocks

Stationery Norm you seem too excited Widgets What's a widget It's a fictional product It doesn't matter What is that from? Back to school

Oh okay Fantastic film. And you're right, widgets, does not matter. Not a real thing. All you need to know, Kristen, is that J.C. Penny ignored his doctor's orders and immediately applied for jobs at these department stores. Okay.

With him, Penny had several letters of recommendation. One of those letters was from his old boss back in Hamilton, Missouri. John Hale, the owner of J.M. Halen Brothers Dry Good Store. The letter said Penny was honest, smart, hardworking, and quote, the only reason he left my employment was because of health. With a recommendation like that, getting a job would be easy, right? Well, it just occurs to me.

It must have been so easy to just lie back in the day. What do you mean? Well, I would write a letter of recommendation saying Kristen Caruso is the best woman who's ever lived. She epilated her whole body, no problem. She's tough as nails. and she'd be an amazing employee. The only reason she left my employee

is because she was too good for the job. I said it myself. She was way too good at this job. Took us a little extra time with the epilator on her back, but, you know, we got through it. Hey, the letter does it. Hey, it's not a novel. It's just a letter, okay?

P.S., please write to me if you would like more information on the hair removal process. So what, you're saying you would write your own letter of recommendation? Well, what would stop anybody? Oh, oh, I'm from far out of town, but here, here are my letters of recommendation. Oh, guess what? They all say I'm amazing. Hey, hang on.

Perhaps that letter of recommendation is sealed with wax on an envelope. That doesn't make any sense. And it has the stamp of J.M. Halem Brothers. Okay, well, that's great, but I'm assuming he's applying to multiple places. He is. So someone's going to break that seal. Maybe he got multiple letters of recommendation. Why are we talking about this?

Well, I'm just pointing stuff out. Okay, go ahead. You're talking about how you would scam people to hire you. I'm just saying it's really easy. It just seems really easy. I mean, yeah, it's a little harder to verify back then. I'll give you that, Kristen. So you think he's going to get a job pretty easy.

right? Well, no, because of the way you worded that. Well, you're correct, Kristen. So at the first store he applied, J.C. Penny met with a very cold, angry, bitchy owner. Oh. The guy brushed off his letters of

recommendation. He was like, I don't have time to read letters. Yeah, that you clearly wrote yourself. Besides, they don't mean didly dick. And by the way, don't even try stealing from this store. I'm like a hawk. I'll catch you. Why do you think he was going to steal? J.C. Penny was a little confused, too. He was like, uh, what? Is theft that big of a problem here? Or is this guy just like cuckoo bananas?

Uh-huh. I don't know. Anyway, J.C. Penny did not get a job there. He kept applying. Some stores said they weren't hiring. Others just paid way too little. But finally, finally, he found a decent job at the Jocelyn Dry Goods Company. There's a jewelry store here called Jocon's jewelry. That is not how it's supposed to be. It's Jocelyn's jewelry, but the guy on the radio is like, Jocelyn's jewelry. He's like, got something in his mouth or something. His dentures are loose, Norm. That might be it too.

That's 100% it. Well, congrats to J.C. Penny. He got a job at Jocelyn's Dragger, something. You know, it's too bad because Joclone's jewelry was going to sponsor us, but then they heard this. Yeah, right. Dare to dream, Kristen. The hours were long, nine to 13 hour days, six days a week.

Oh. To pay, $6 a week, adjusted for inflation, about $230 a week. Yikes a rue. Yeah, not great, but not bad. It was enough. It seems pretty bad. Well, it was enough for JCPenney to rent a room at a nearby lodging house and save a little money every paycheck.

And he thought with his hard work and determination, He could make a name for himself in the business. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way. His coworkers didn't like him. I thought he was a foreigner from Missouri. Okay. A goody-to-shoe. Well, sure.

Non-threatening. Some of his coworkers try to take advantage of him. Not in that way. Norman, okay. Those of you who have the video version, please confirm, I was not giving a look like I thought it was She wasn't proud to make it check. I was not. I was sitting here silent.

Okay. Okay. Well, you have to pay $10 to verify it. Please do. Norm's taking advantage of you, monetarily and sexually. I'm pretty sure. They get something in return. So one time, J.C. Penny was showing a woman some quilts, which was a somewhat

expensive item at that store. Pretty good profits. And just as he was about to close on that sale, another guy swooped in with. was like, oh, hello, miss, uh, uh, James, I'll finish up this transaction. Thank you. Oh, bullshit. J.C. Penny lost his ever-loven mind. After the woman left, he confronted that coworker and said, quote, if you ever do that to me again,

I will thrash you. What does that mean? Thrash is when, do this. You take your fist, you pound them. It looks like you don't, it looks like you don't actually hit the guy. at all. It looks like you just wear yourself out. No, you know, you know when Donkey Kong's at the top of the construction site in the arcade game? Yes, I do. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Yeah. That's a thrashing. Okay, gotcha. Okay. Look out for barrels. Mm-hmm. Kristen, you wouldn't believe it. J.C. Penny was transforming into a threatening boy. I mean, it sounds like he needs to. Yeah. The coworker was not intimidated in anyway. He snickered and walked off. asshole, I hate that.

After that happened, J.C. Penny decided to quit. He didn't like the working environment. It felt unfriendly, impersonal. He also didn't like how angry he got. He knew that if his father was still alive, he would not have approved. But J.C. Penny soon found another job at a dry goods store down the street. But even there, he found trouble. Did you ever have people bullshit with you when you were young?

and non-threatening and all that in the workplace? Hmm. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes. I did too. Yeah, I worked at a restaurant. Why did you say it so weird?

Restorant. You've never heard of this line of business before. It's called a restaurant. It's a French word. Uh-huh. Restorant. Yeah, I was 18 and a dishwasher. Uh-huh.

And I looked like I was 12. Sure. Yeah, the kitchen staff was pretty brutal to me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's tough. It's funny. When you told that story, I thought back to my job when I was 18 and I worked at a restaurant. And I remember, so I was a waitress.

And they had something like five shifts you were like supervised. You were in training with another server. And the deal was that other server got all of the tips. Because in theory, they're the ones doing. the training. They're the ones kind of doing all the work. I remember on my final day of training, God, eventually I've got to let this go. It has been, oh my God, it's been 20 years. It's been more than, oh my God. Uh-oh, you just had a realization how old you are. Oh, oh, Lord, this guy, I'm trying to, I'm trying to pretend like I'm not still mad. This man showed up completely hungover for the shift

and just sat at the bar the whole time, head in his hands, didn't do any work. I did all the work. And he got your tips. Well, here's the thing. I did all the work, which was fine. It was the last day of training. I mean, it was TGI Fridays.

We weren't like building rockets or anything. It didn't even occur to me that he would be such a doucheback as to then take all the tips. But you bet your ass he most certainly did. Can you believe? And I didn't stand up for myself. I was just like, okay. Oh, yeah. I was the same way.

I didn't stand up for myself either. And in fact, I thought those guys picking on me were very cool. Oh, that sucks. And looking back, I'm like, man, those guys were fucking losers. Yes. They were absolute losers. Yes. And, but yeah.

But you know who did stand up for me? My fellow dishwashers, they all loved me. Oh, that's so sweet. Kind of banded together, you know. That's very sweet. That is a sad and common occurrence when you're really young and new on a job. Yep. Is the loser assholes want to take advantage of somebody and not sexually, hopefully, but.

Well, it's all projection. It's just they got bullshit going on in their life. Yeah. Take it out on poor little non-threatening norm. But, you know, the good thing is we don't. hold on to that anger for 20 years because that would be really pathetic, right? Yeah, especially to say it on a podcast. We're totally over it.

I mean, what was it like 60 bucks? It's not a big deal. Maybe that guy's listening and he will sign up for our Patreon. He'd better sign up at the $10 level. Yeah, with inflation, he's going to have to subscribe for three years. Yeah, that's right. So yeah, JCPenney found another job at a dry goods store down the street. But even there, he found trouble.

One day he was organizing some inventory, and he noticed two pairs of the same men's socks had different price tags. One pair cost a quarter. The other was two pairs for a quarter. Oh. Jay C. Penny was a little confused by the different prices. So he took the socks to the store owner and asked which price was correct. The owner looked annoyed and said, young man, mind your own business. You're here to sell things, not mark them. Do as the price mark says. Sell the socks for 25 cents a pair if you can.

If you can't sell them for two pairs for a quarter. You see, Kristen, this store owner was using a business practice that was common during the 1800s, but quickly falling out of favor. It was called differential pricing or double pricing. Sometimes stores would sell items without prices at all. You'd pick up an item, go to the counter, and have to ask, how much is this? Then the clerk would look you over and decide what to charge you. Norm, people know, because no one skipped my Mother's Day episode.

Oh, I'm getting to that, Kristen, don't you worry. Luckily, this practice was falling out of favor thanks to a department store owner named John, John, John, I want to make up. Wow, you didn't have to do that again. I think that was just fine in one episode. It's the greatest joke I've ever said on this podcast. John Watermaker believed, quote, if everyone was equal before God,

then everyone should be equal before price. Hey, we learned a little bit about him in Kristen's Mother's Day episode. Previous topic? Oh, you could have given me the gong thing for my other idea? That is for previous topics only. Okay? As the sound engineer, I made that call. Wow.

See, this is what I love about history, though. Like, the more you learn, the more you see how everything is connected. Sure. Yeah. It's really cool. Like a giant spider web. Despite John John John Wanner's best efforts, some stores did still try to take advantage of people, such as marking the same items with different price tags and seeing what happens.

It's no wonder the phrase, let the buyer beware, became a popular saying during this time. Gross. J.C. Penny thought differential pricing was extremely unfair. He had experienced it growing up. Farmers like his father were often charged unfair prices by railroad companies to transport product. Differential pricing? Try that in a small town. I guess they did. So J.C. Penny did what he thought was right. He said, quote, there was no use in continuing to work in a store that supported such a policy. I asked for my wages. I got him and then I left. Yeah. I hope he snuck a pair of socks with him. Although, no, he's too ethical. Mm-hmm.

He would never do that. Things weren't going very well for James Cash Penny Jr. He hated the city life. He missed home. Small town vibes. He was more comfortable there. He felt like he understood the people better there. So, J.C. Penny decided to leave Denver.

He looked around for opportunities in nearby towns, and he soon found one about 35. miles northwest in Longmont, Colorado, a local butcher and bakery shop was up for sale, which to me seems like a very strange combo, a butcher and bakery. What's wrong with that? I guess nothing. I don't think I've ever seen a butcher bakery before. I think it makes perfect sense.

Get your meats, get your pie. Maybe you've got a mince meat pie. Get yourself a nice New York strip and a donut. Although Italian delis kind of have that vibe Because you can get deli meat and Italian cookies Yeah, your world is being rocked by something you've experienced many times in your life I have never been to a butcher bakery Okay

Okay Lay off So this was obviously a much different job than working in a dry goods store But JCPenney believed he could do it He grew up working on the farm He took care of livestock with his dad he knew meat. And hey, he gets some outdoor working too, just like his doctor suggested.

And he'd be running his own business. He could work for himself. There we go. That's the key. The only problem was J.C. Penny needed cash. He didn't have enough. So he wrote home to his mom, Mary Frances Penny. No, she has no money.

This is ridiculous. Hang on. Okay. J.C. Penny had actually left his mom a big chunk of change. from his savings to help out with the farm. Okay. He left her about $300. Adjusted for inflation, $12,000.

All right. And now he rode home to his mom and asked, Mom, an opportunity has come up. Can I please have that money? Mary didn't hesitate. She sent him the full $300. Wow. Yeah.

And with that, at the tender age of 23, J.C. Penny was the brand new owner of the Longmont Meat Market and Bakery. Wow, okay. But boy, was he in for an uphill battle. That business was not doing well at all. Well, okay, I was going to say you'd have to have a pretty big staff, right? And you'd have to be covering a lot of hours because bakers, I mean, here's the thing we know about bakers.

What do we know? Well, we've established on this podcast. If you're a baker, you have to be a woman with big pleasant hooters. That's just what I've got in my head. Also, worst part about it, you got to wake up at the ass crackadon to get bacon and then not bacon from a pig, but, you know, get to step in. And then, yeah, you're just out of your mind tired by 3 p.m. And a butcher, I assume, has totally different hours.

Yeah, I would assume so. And he's doing this whole thing? I'm sure he had some employees, but. Well, that $300 can't go too far. Well, you know, that was just to buy the business. And the business wasn't doing very well, and that's probably why it was cheap to buy. Customers constantly complain about finding Rocky Mountain oysters in their chocolate declares. Norman.

J.K., JK. You know about Rocky Mountain oysters? No, why don't you tell us, Norman? They're bull balls. Deep-fried bull balls. Goodness. Have you ever happened? one?

Goodness. Um, no. I had to think about it. I love that you really thought about it and you were like, did one slip into my mouth one time? Not sure. I'm going to say no, but not confidently.

Did I slip under that bowl? You've had a lot of skateboarding accidents. Anyway, J.C. Penny was filled with determination to turn the business around. He cleaned. He organized. He trimmed the fat. He took out ads in the local paper that stated his store was, quote, a first-class meat market and bakery.

Everything neat and clean. Always a full, complete line. Men are gentlemanly and accommodating. Give it a try. Wow. A meat market where the men are gentlemanly and clean. And accommodating. I bet a lot of dudes showed up and were mightily disappointed.

Backrubs? At the very least. Hmm, how big of a slab of ribs can I put you down for? Everyone. Okay, now if you're not at the $10 level and you're not seeing the video, count yourself lucky, ironically, because Norm just did a massage on an invisible man that didn't look consensual. Oh, they were looking to purchase.

I made the sale. Unfortunately, the business continued to struggle. Competition was tough. There were a lot of other butchers in Longmont. older, more well-established businesses. In fact, the only reason J.C. Penny's business was staying afloat was from one customer, the Imperial Hotel.

It was the largest hotel in Longmont, Colorado. J.C. Penny's store supplied the hotel restaurant with all of their cuts of meat. But that business relationship came with a catch. The head chef at the hotel restaurant demanded a bottle of whiskey with every order. And he was like, hey, as long as I get my whiskey bottle, I'll keep buying meat from your store.

Now, this arrangement had been in place before Penny had bought the store. And when he took over, he just kept doing it because he was like, I need the business. Well, it's your only customer. Yeah. It's my best customer, whatever. Yeah. But as time went on and the more he did that, the more he didn't like doing that. Mm-hmm.

For one, J.C. Penny wasn't a fan of alcohol, aka the devil's squirt juice. Don't say the devil's squirt juice like it's a thing anyone has ever said before. That's an old-timey phrase for alcohol. Yes, it is. I'm surprised you didn't come across that in your Carrie Nation episode. Yeah, I'm also surprised. Yeah. Second, this was basically a bribe.

That's not a way to do business. Jay C. Penny thought about his dad. What would he do? Well, that made the decision easy. J.C. Penny went to the hotel chef and said, hey, I want to do business with you, but I'm not giving you a bottle of whiskey anymore. And the chef was like, okay. And he immediately ended their contract.

Right. Jay C. Penny later wrote, I did not regret taking the stand, but it was a costly lesson. Yeah. A costly lesson, indeed. J.C. Penny decided to abandon ship. He sold the business, paid off his debts, and was officially back to square one. Wait, how long did he last? A couple months.

Oh, geez. Well, okay, that's, I'm sorry. Yeah. What? Okay. Oh, we're about to get an epic rant from Kristen here. When she starts with, okay. Well, I did have some beef with JCPenney's dad.

No, this is no joke. Oh, beef, meat market slash bakery. He took a lot of principled stands. He did? That I think put his family at risk and put his family in danger. Who? His father? Yes. Yes.

Okay. And it's interesting to me that his mother is the one who, after the dad dies, says, hey, go out there, do your thing. And actually, you know what? No, I've got this on my own. Here, take your $300. Like, she is the one who seems to really be teaching self-reliance. She was a little different in how she dealt with her children and raised her children. Absolutely.

Yeah. Absolutely. she was. But this thing right here of, I've got one customer who is keeping my business afloat. Yep. And I'm going to break this deal we have. Wouldn't it be so much smarter to just build up your business to the point where one ruined business relationship wouldn't tank the business? I mean, yeah, but J.C. Penny felt icky about the relationship. Right, but how else are you going to live? I think he had confidence in himself that he could find work. Okay.

And he wanted to do business his way. Okay. You know, he wasn't going to change who he was or his principles over a freaking bottle of whiskey. Okay. I also don't know if he really liked that job. I think he wanted to own his own business, but I don't think his passion was in running a butcher bakery. Well, it would be a shame if it was because I, I think this is a weird reason to tank a business.

Yeah, this butcher bakery slash backrub store didn't work out. Okay. He's back to square one. He doesn't have any money. He's looking for work. But he didn't look very hard for work because there was actually one place in Longmont, Colorado, that he really wanted to work. He shopped there frequently.

The prices were great. The owners were honest. They were from Missouri. just like him. The vibes in that place were stellar. It reminded him of home. It was a dry goods store, and there's no doubt that JCPenney really appreciated the name of the place. It was called the Golden Rule Store. Oh. So let's talk about the Golden Rule Store. The Golden Rule Store had been in Longmont, Colorado, since 1889. It was owned by a husband and wife team, Tom and Alice Callahan. The Callahan's were from, Humansville, Missouri.

Definitely not full of aliens. Humans only. Don't worry about it. It was a town built by aliens who were trying not to arouse any suspicion. So they picked the perfect name. What? Oh, no, this is Humansville.

This is an Aliensville. What a weird thing to say. Weird to accuse me of being an alien. Oh my God. I think you're an alien. So Tom and Alice Callahan were from Humansville, and they were inspired to open their own store by Tom Callahan's mommy. Celia! Mommy Callahan ran her own dry goods store in the small town of Chillicothe, Missouri.

Oh! The home of sliced bread. Wait, is it Chillicothe or Chillicothe? Oh, good question. Thank you. I thought of it myself. Hang on. I'm actually not sure.

Chilacothy. Wow. The research. is really lacking. I'm going to write that down. Oh. Oh, Norm says that to me all the time, so I'm going to throw a bag in his face. Chilacothe. Oh, boom! There goes to boom. Ready or not? Oh, Jesus Christ. Okay. Chilacothy, Missouri, home of sliced bread. When you drive through, they've got a big slice of bread. Well, they have a big loaf of bread. Yeah, yeah. With one slice. Yeah. We should also clarify, It's not actual bread that would be moldy and disgusting.

But it is kind of like, all right, they're proud of this here. And I don't blame them. You can pull over and take a big old bite out of that sign. So yeah, Mommy Callahan ran a dry goods store. Why are you calling her Mommy Callahan? Well, we don't need to remember her name. It's Mommy Callahan. Well, she was a businesswoman.

Give her some respect. You know, Celia. Celia Callahan. Probably Celia, right? Celia. Uh-huh. Celia. You know, if you don't shape up.

Cone Callahan. I'm going to put two pieces of bread on either side of you and just eat you up, buddy. Call me an idiot sandwich. Oh, no. It's a Gordon Ramsey. I know. I would never. As I was saying.

Celia. Celia Callahan had a dry goods store in Chilicothe, Missouri. It's pronounced Missouri. Missouri. And Celia Callahan had it going on, baby. She ran her business a little different. than other stores, she sold her items very, very cheap. She barely marked up the price.

She even accepted alternate methods of payment like chickens or eggs. Old school bartering, baby. Her son Tom Callahan was like, Mom, what are you doing? This isn't a good business model at all. Everything's way too cheap. Well, Celia Callahan was like, nonsense, sunny boy. This is what the community can afford. It's the best way to do business.

And Celia Callahan was right. That store was a huge success. People were flocking to it. And Tom Callahan was like, wow, if you sell product for cheap and move inventory quickly, you can make a lot of money off of volume of sale. Yeah. Sell a ton of stuff cheap. Tom and Alice Callahan wanted to try that business model for themselves. So they scouted for possible locations.

And they found the perfect spot in Longmont, Colorado. It was a small town near the run. railroads, and there wasn't much competition. So in 1889, Tom and Alice Callahan officially opened their new store, the Golden Rule Store. The name conveyed honesty, good morals, fair business practices, everything they stood for. The Golden Rule was also a very popular saying at that time during the Victorian era. It was influenced by religious movements and a rising middle class and stuff like that.

Yeah, it's total bullshit. We all hated. Don't you agree? Yeah, it's not true at all. I do like how the way you're like, the golden rule. The golden rule is good, Norm. I know. Okay.

I'm just saying it's like not an original store name idea. Oh, wow. Okay. Great. I'm not trying to shit on their parade. I'm just saying. Sure. No, the golden rule is awesome.

And I do think that's how businesses should run. Okay. Their store sign was bright yellow, which stood out to residents walking along the dusty streets of Longmont. The local Longmont newspaper announced the opening, writing, A very cozy little store has been opened on Main Street by Tom Callahan. Whoa, passive voice. Holy moly.

The store carries a carefully selected stock of notions and gents and ladies furnishing goods. Mr. and Mrs. Callahan are constantly on hand to welcome their customers. Wow. The Callahan's were all about getting people into the store. Their ads showed off handkerchiefs, blouses, courses, corset. corsets overalls that's not how you say

overalls overalls overalls joe do not do not do any editing to that we need everyone to know the alternative

pronunciation to overalls that is how someone from humansville Missouri would ask to purchase a pair of overalls do you have any

overalls I would like to put these overalls over my corset they had overalls she had overalls jeans, dress pants, shoes, and more. And beside every item, a price.

And that price was the same for everybody. And because the Golden Rule Store relied on volume of sales, inventory had to move quickly. So prices were cheap. The average markup on a product was 33%. So if they bought an item for a dollar, they sold it for $1.33. What were other stores at the time marking it up to? Honestly, whatever they could get away with. Oh, okay.

Yeah. But it wasn't just low prices that got people in the door. The Golden Rule store had weekly sales. Each week, a new item. There were walk-in promotions. A free artificial violet just for stopping by. Holiday sales like the 4th of July. Save on hats, shoes, underwear, and school supplies.

Tom and Alice Callahan also had a policy that was somewhat unheard of for a dry goods store. You ready for this? They let wet stuff in. No, absolutely not. Oh, okay. They were cash only. Oh. No credit.

Okay. So that was somewhat controversial because farmers usually relied on credit to get their supplies. But the Callahan's thought credit was too risky. They were like, hey, our prices are so low, there's no need to get credit. And they were right. The locals flocked to their store. They had quality items at low prices with friendly vibes. They loved it.

The Calhans were raking in the big bucks. And they took that money and they reinvested it into their business. They expanded the store. They bought new equipment. They installed fancy glass cabinets and solid oak countertops. It really elevated the space and it made the shopping experience even better. These small town folks from Longmont, they weren't used to having such a nice store. Yeah.

And when they overhauled the overalls, no one knew what to do with themselves. Norm, you looked really unamused. I was like, where is this going? And then I started thinking, did I say overhaul earlier? And I said that weird too. You'll never speak again. Hell no. The next.

I'm filled with determination, just like J.C. Penny. Oh, you're a good boy, Norm. And we believe in you. Imagine that is a bumper sticker. Norm is a good boy and we believe he will succeed. I am imagining it, and I'm imagining it especially on just random cars. Yeah, that's my idea. Oh, so just some random dude named Phil, he's got a bumper sticker that says,

Norm is a good boy and we believe he will succeed. Yeah, yeah. I want to sell it in our store. We have no merch, so that'll be our next product. Sure, sure. And I bet you 10% off. Those fly off the shelves. We could just leave a blank space and then you could write whoever's name.

No, no, no, it's only Norm. We only believe in Norm. Oh, well, I support this. The Golden Rule Stores use their cash-only policy as a bargaining chip with suppliers. Twice a year, they would travel east and buy product. And when you buy a large amount of product with cash, you're going to get some pretty damn good deals. And speaking of product, the Callahan's knew their products well. Alice Callahan was considered an expert in the latest ladies fashion,

and she personally selected what women's clothing would be sold in the store. Alice was like, hey, even in these small towns, the ladies be shopping. They want to look their best out here, too, not just in the big cities. Overhead costs were low, too. The Callahan's lived behind the store, and that allowed them to keep the store open for as long as possible. The Golden Rule store was open six days a week, 7.30 a.m. to 6 p.m., except for Saturdays when they stayed open until 10 p.m. for farmers. Good Lord. Mm-hmm.

The Golden Rule store was recession and depression-proof. During the panic of 1893, the store kept thriving. With low prices and a cash-only policy, it was maybe the best place to shop. I'm surprised they didn't get robbed. That's a good point. Well, all this cash? Yeah. And it's the 1800s?

Yeah. You can only bury it so many places. Well, and that's why you, you know, the corrupt-ass sheriff and you got to call the former outlawful. and say, you have to help us. And they're like, I don't do that stuff no more. You know? Yeah, absolutely.

An advertisement during the panic of 1893 stated, Hard Times made easy at the Golden Rule Store. Pretty good, huh? Yeah. So all of this to say, the Golden Rule Store was a big success, and the Callahan's expanded quickly. They had stores in Colorado, Wyoming,

Montana, Illinois, and Missouri. Good grief. And the more stores they opened, the more their buying power increased with suppliers. Oftentimes when a business expands, owners can lose control of what makes that business special. Tom Callahan wanted to avoid that. So to run new stores, he didn't use outsiders. He wanted people he knew he could trust and worked hard. He brought in family members, close friends, or employees that had proven themselves.

Sure. And they became partners with him. him in the business. The Calhans actively encouraged their salespeople to work hard, learn merchandising, and open their own Golden Rules store. I mean, that's a lot of trust in a lot of people. Yeah. And this is how they were able to expand so quickly, bringing in partners to co-own new stores.

Now in 1898, as J.C. Penny was looking for a job, he decided that the Golden Rule store was the place for him. Oh, definitely. Yeah. He thought, if I can just get my foot in the door, I can do really well here. And maybe one day I can run a store of my own. Hell yeah. So he strolled into the Golden Rule store and he met with Tom Callahan and he asked for a job.

J.C. Penny was surprised when Tom Callahan recognized him. He was like, oh, hey, you're the guy who runs that butcher shop. Oh. Tom Callahan knew the locals well. J.C. Penny was impressed. And he replied, well, I actually. don't run it anymore, and I'm looking for a job. Mr. Callahan, if you give me a job, I'll show you whether or not I can sell stuff. I can prove myself to you. Tom Callahan

appreciated the eagerness, but said, well, I've got all the permanent help I need right now, but one of our clerks is out sick. He got his balls crushed by a falling anvil. Norman. Hmm. I may have misread that quote. Okay, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. The clerk was out sick. I don't know why he was out sick or what happened to him. No word on his balls. His balls may have been crushed by a falling anvil. We can't rule it out. So Tom Callahan asked, do you want to come in for the holidays and work while he's away? And J.C. Penny didn't hesitate. He was like, yes, sir, I do. Penny thought that he could make such a good impression that Tom Callahan wouldn't want to get rid of him. Yeah.

And Penny was right. He worked as a son. sales clerk, and he was kicking ass. He showed up to work early. He cleaned. He organized. He asked a ton of questions. He wanted to learn everything. And Callahan was happy to share his knowledge.

J.C. Penny felt right at home at the Golden Rule store. Still, there were a few things about the store that he thought should change. So the main one was, he thought Tom Callahan was a little too chill. He was a little too lax with employees. Really? He didn't really keep a lot of tabs on him. Okay. I mean, it sounds like this guy is doing the first franchise-ish thing ever.

Well, not ever. I know. Hey, I'm exaggerating a little, but this does not sound like some relaxed, chill guy. Sounds like maybe he's got serious anxiety and a desire to prove himself. So, like, some people might think, like, well, that's a good thing. You should be a little chill on the job and, like, don't be a microman. You know? Absolutely.

Yeah. But J.C. Penny thought that that lack of attention was hurting the business overall. One time he noticed a pile of men's suits with a very specific pattern that just weren't selling. And J.C. Penny was curious. So he went to the salesman in charge and he asked, hey, you know, why do you think these suits aren't selling? What's the deal with this? And the salesman was like, oh, well, between you and me, I really, really like this suit. And I don't want anyone else in Longmont to wear it.

So, you know, I want to peacock it. So I don't push these on the customers. Oh, that is bad. That is bad. Yeah. J.C. Penny was like, What the fuck? He was like, that is no way to do business.

Yeah. Penny thought when I run my own store, I'm going to keep a better eye on my employees. So despite a few differences, J.C. Penny was incredibly, grateful for his tutelage under Tom Callahan. He said that Tom Callahan's influence, quote, cast a long, long shadow. It would forever change his life. And I agree. In my opinion, J.C. Penny, America's greatest department store, does not exist without Tom Callahan. How about Alice? Yes, yes. Shout out to Alice Callahan as well. After the 1898 holiday season, J.C. Penny's prediction came true. Tom Callahan was like, I think I'd like to keep you around a little longer.

He put J.C. Penny in charge of managing inventory. Penny spent most of his time at the Golden Rule Store. Work gave him agency. It gave him hope. It also allowed him to meet a lot of the residents of Longmont. And J.C. Penny took quite a liking to one of them. Ooh. It was a young lady named Berta Alva Hess.

My God. What's wrong, Kristen? Well, when the sexy new character enters the scene, I'm expecting a more... Sexy name. ...than a luring name than Berta Hess. But, you know, hey, I'm... My last name's Pitt. Yeah, yeah, you got no room to talk, lady.

Well, hey, I wish for a more attractive name. That's why I married you, Kristen Caruso. Now, that's a beautiful name. How about... What? What? He's got nothing. Let's move on. Let's move on. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Kristen, you'll be happy to know that Berta Hess was the exact same age as J.C. Penny. I am thrilled to know that, yes. Mm-hmm. I'm sick of these old-timey stories where people are sniffing around kids. Oh, wait, actually, hang on. Oh, wait, hang on. She was 12. That seems suspicious to me. Hang on. Mm-hmm. Bad research. I mean...

That is bad research. Bertha Alva Hess was actually older than Jason C. Oh! By how much? Looks like seven years older than him. Goodness. All right. Why did I write down there at the same age? They're not the same age.

Berta was older than him. Okay. She was born in 1867. He was born in 1875. She was a short queen, five foot three inches. I knew it from the name Berta. Hmm. She was absolutely adorable when she reached for a bob.

of Kellogg's Bait No More cereal at the top shelf. She had rich brown hair, naturally gorgeous. Kristen, please look up a picture of this woman. I think she's beautiful. Well, calm down. You're married. Berta is long gone. Berta. Berta Pinn.

Oh, my goodness. I accidentally Googled Burt Hess, and boy, that's a different thing. Oh, my Lord. Isn't she attractive? Yes, that right there is a gorgeous woman, and she's 5'3. Well, you know, I think it was on our bonus episode when I said that the most adorable height is 5'22. Wait, did I say that on last week's episode? I think you said on the bonus episode.

I can barely listen to myself. 5'2, I think, is the most adorable, but 5'3 also adorable. Very adorable. Yeah. Goodness. Jay C. Penny certainly out kicked his coverage. Sure. You might be wondering, Kristen, how is a haughty like that still single?

She's a widow. She was divorced. Scandal. Berta Hess had been married before at the age of 19, but it ended in divorce. No children. It's unclear why she was divorced. However, it sort of made Berta a pariah in Longmont. Divorce was quite rare back then, and divorced women were considered suspicious.

People thought, oh, she's divorced. There must be something wrong with her. Absolutely. What do you think, history owes, are divorced women suspicious? Wow. But James Cash Penny Jr. didn't care about any of that. Well, no, because she was super hot. She was super hot.

He knew what he liked, and he didn't care what other people thought. He thought Berta was beautiful. He loved talking to her when she came into the... store and Berta has returned the feelings. As she got to know J.C. Penny, she appreciated how ambitious he was, how independent he was, how confident he was. And from there, a relationship blossomed. Berto would frequently show up to the Golden Rule Store and bring J.C. Penny lunch.

That's sweet. What kind of lunch did she bring? Do you know? I'm not sure. Oh. Maybe some Rocky Mountain oysters and a chocolate E. Claire. She also liked to advise. buys him on ladies fashion and how to sell it. Okay.

Mm-hmm. They were madly in love, and for the first time in his life, J.C. Penny thought, wow, I can see myself marrying this woman and settling down and starting a family. Oh. Oh, what's that record scratch for? Tap the brakes there, Mr. Penny. Remember that sales clerk who had been out sick from an anvil falling on his balls?

Yeah, he didn't recover. We all forgot about him. No, he came back to work. And J.C. Penny was like, fuck, man, am I going to lose my job? No, you're not going to lose your job. He was worried he would. Okay. He marched up to Tom Callahan was like, be straight with me.

Do I need to look for another job? Tom Callahan expected J.C. Penny to ask that question. And he replied, not if you'd be interested in working for my partner and I in another town. Oh, okay. Tom Callahan offered J.C. Penny a job as a sales clerk. at one of their newest Golden Rule store locations. Evanston, Wyoming. Oh, that's a good hike away.

Okay. Is Bertic coming? Nope. Oh. You'll see. Okay. The store was owned and run by a fella named Guy Johnson. Are we sure he's not a porn star?

He's real, baby. Guy Johnson was a former sales clerk at the Longmont store, and now he was part owner and run. this new Golden Rule store in Evanston. Cool. J.C. Penny couldn't hold back his excitement. He was like, he was like, hell yeah, I'll take the job.

I mean, yeah, that's great. That's a huge move up. Yeah. This was another step toward his dream of running his own store. So in March of 1890, J.C. Penny moved to Evanston, Wyoming. A mining and farming town

located along the Union Pacific Railroad. Population? Around 2000. Oof. Guy Johnson, who was very real, hired J.C. Penny as a junior salesman with a salary of $50 a month, adjust for inflation, about $2,000 a month. J.C. Penny's goal was to impress the pants off his new boss. Well, that wouldn't be hard because he's clearly a porn star.

Hey, Penny, I'm going to go on my break. I got to film something. Oh, wait, cameras hadn't been invented yet. Yeah. I got to record something on this phonograph. I, Norm, I don't think you're really... I got to take a photo of my penis in the back. I like how... The way you said it sounded like it was going to be all euphemisms,

but instead it's just, I'm going to take a photo of my penis. He's a straight shooter. He doesn't bullshit, okay? See it. J.C. Penny's goal was to impress the pants off his new boss. But how would he do that? Sorry. Just show up with a pizza.

Oh, my goodness. You know what? I'm alarmed by how immature this podcast is. Me too. Shameful. So how would he impress his boss? Well, his old boss back in Hamilton, John Hale, He'd always told him that the best salesman know how to sell old stock. And so that's what J.C. Penny was going to focus on.

He would study the products inside and out, and he would try to turn over inventory as quickly as possible. J.C. Penny was a man on a mission. He spent practically all of his time at the store. He had a one-hour lunch break every day, but he only used 30 minutes of it. Okay. That's kind of pathetic. He needs to cool it a little bit. He was filled with determination. Okay. When he wasn't selling stuff, he was cleaning and organizing the store. J.C. Penny later wrote,

The days were not long enough. I was happy in my work and as deeply interested in the store as if it were my own. Often I went home at night and was unable to sleep until I had got up, dressed, and gone back to the store to make certain that everything was in its place. Hey, if you love your job, you'll never work a day in your life. Okay, but you also have to have work-life balance. you've got to not burn out. You've got to... What if you love your job?

This is his passion. Okay. What if your job was epilating hairs off your body? I would quit immediately. What if your job was to watch Survivor and paint your nails? I mean, then I'd be great at it. Yeah. Except for this season, it's very giving corporate retreat.

It's boring. I already told you about this. Yeah, Kristen's not a fan of season 48. I don't know what season we're on. I just know everyone, don't judge me. I know it's a stupid show, but I got sucked in in the pandemic. Now I can't quit. Now these later seasons...

Don't be ashamed of your love of Survivor. I should be a perfectly... It's a perfectly cromulent reality show. Shut up. But yeah, it's giving corporate retreat. But anyhow, go on with your little tail. Kristen's upset because there's no villain this season. Everyone just loves each other and it's all hippie-dippy and oh, we hope everybody would

I feel like lately they're getting away from reality show villains. And I would really, what I've discovered, my toxic trait, I love a villain. Just put Tiffany New York Pollard on Survivor. Oh, my God. And that would be incredible. That would be the most incredible season ever. But I would demand she has to stay in for at least four episodes. What she called Johnny Bananas on that show?

A saber-tooth. Sabre-tooth-headed motherfuckers? I don't know. But sheer brilliance is that woman. I agree. Well, Jay Penny's hard work paid off. His boss, Guy Johnson, also a porn star, according to Kristen.

He took notice of Penny and promoted him to head sales clerk. And this gave Penny more responsibilities. He did the cash deposits. He recorded sales. He ordered merchandise. Penny's knowledge about the business grew immensely. And for the first time in a while, he felt really secure about his job and his future. And maybe now was the time to settle down.

and start that family. That summer, he wrote to his girlfriend. Ooh. He wrote to Berta Hess, and he said, Let's get married and make a baby. And Berta replied, Yes. Oh, okay.

And so in August of 1890, they got married in Cheyenne, Wyoming. And make a baby, they did. A little over a year later, in January of 1901, the pennies had their first child, Roswell Kemper Penny. Okay. So that Kemper name peaked my interest.

It was a family friend that his dad knew, the Kemper's. Okay. No idea if it's related to that Kemper family, which is a very rich family in this area. Ellie Kemper from the office. Yeah. She's from the Kemper family. I don't know if they're related in anyway. Probably down the line somewhere.

Sure. Who knows? Not you. You didn't research it. It requires further research. I have a lot to talk about. Okay, I can't be spending all my time looking up these little titty bitties. Oh, okay. So calm down. The new Penny family had a happy life. They had a tiny house in Evanston. Penny was doing well at his job. And they were trying to save money in the hopes that one day, J.C. Penny could become a partner in a Golden Rule store. Yeah.

Berta supported Penny's dreams all the way. He wrote, in my wife, I had my first and invaluable partner. Oh, sweet. Everyone, we're looking at each other with lovey eyes. Yeah, we are. You're my partner. Oh, my. Well, luckily, J.C. Penny wouldn't have to wait long for his dream to come true.

Later that year in 1901, Guy Johnson, owner and manager of the Evanston store, came to JC Penny and said, hey, Tom Callahan and I are going to open a new store, and we've decided we want you to take charge of it as a partner. Things are moving fast. Yeah. This is great. Finally, J.C. Penny's very own Golden Rule Store. I take back my bullshit about how he should have stuck it out with the butchery, bakery,

combo deal. This is great. J.C. Penny wrote that the offer, quote, fired my very soul with a desire and an ambition to be somebody. He has a dramatic streak, and I enjoy it. You love to see it. But there is one issue. Money.

The pennies had only saved $500 up to that point. And it would take $2,000 for J.C. Penny to become a one-third partner in that store. Wow. Tom Callahan and Guy Johnson stepped up, and they're like, hey, no problem. We will loan you the $1,500 that you need at an interest rate of, let's say 8%. J.C. Penny went home and discussed it with Berta. And Berta was like, you know, I bet you can get a better rate somewhere else.

Oh, okay, Berta. So J.C. Penny contacted some banks back in his hometown of Hamilton, Missouri. Yes, all right. And Berta was right. A bank offered J.C. Penny $1,500 with an interest rate of 6%. I like that a lot. What do you like about it? I feel like it would complicate things a lot. You're already in business with them, and then you would also owe them money, you know, better to owe money to the bank, I think.

Yeah, I agree with that. When J.C. Penny told Guy Johnson he was able to get the money from a bank loan. Johnson laughed and was like, you went to all that trouble when you could have gotten the loan from us. Why? Penny replied, I saved 2%. Yeah. $30. And all it cost me was a postage stamp.

Mm-hmm. Kristen, that's the kind of thing your dad would be so proud of. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And he would have really leaned into that uncomfortable conversation where the guy tried to laugh like he was the ridiculous one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, my dad would have eaten that up with a spoon.

It would have become a legendary Daryl Pitt's story. You would hear about it again and again, whether you wanted to or not. You've got it. Anyway, it was official. Tom Callahan, Guy Johnson, and J.C. Penny were going to open a new Golden Rule Store as partners. Now, I do want to clarify, they were only partners in that store. Right. J.C. Penny didn't have interest in any other Golden Rule Store.

Well, yeah, that would be insane if he, like, had the entire company. But the next question was, where do we open this new store? Tom Callahan and Guy Johnson had always opened Golden Rule stores in small towns with potential for growth. But this time around, Guy Johnson had his eyes on a bigger place. Ogden, Utah. Ogden was on the Union Pacific Railroad, midway between Salt Lake City and Evanston. It was growing quickly. Population, 35,000 people.

Oh, okay. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah. So the partners visited Ogden, Utah to scout it out. And Johnson was all in. He was excited. He was like, wow, look how busy this place is. J.C. Penny commented that he was, quote,

as excited as a boy on Circus Day. We're all picturing it. That's right. Johnson turned to Penny and was like, well, what do you think? J.C. Penny did not share Guy Johnson's excitement. He remembered his experiences in the big city of Denver. Yeah. It was impersonal.

It was like an elephant on Circus Day. Oh, like Dumbo. Yeah, he remembered working in Denver, and he hated it. It was way too competitive. It was impersonal. And if they wanted to compete in Ogden, they'd have to open a really big store. And the bigger the store, the bigger the risk. J.C. Penny replied, I don't want to come here.

This place is, well, it's too big. Johnson replied too big. How could a place be too big to do business? Where do you want the store to be? For J.C. Penny, it was small towns all the way. Golden Rule stores had always thrived in small towns. You know, Penny could get to know the residents and what products they wanted in the store. You know, for Penny, that was the right way to do business. Penny's choice was a small town in Wyoming along the Oregon Short Line Railroad.

It was called Kemmerer. One more time? Kemmerer. Okay. K-E-M-E-R. Kemmerer. Gotcha. Population, 900.

Well, good Lord. He loves a really small town, doesn't he? Mm-hmm. Callahan and Johnson had doubts about Kemmerer. Kemmerer. I also have doubts. I have doubts on it if I'm pronouncing it, right? Sure.

For one, Callahan had actually known some people who tried to open a store in Kemmerer, and it failed. And they had told Callahan, stay away from that town. Mm-hmm. Here's another problem. problem, the local economy, Kemmerer's biggest employer were the railroads and mining companies. And those companies paid their employees once a month. And those companies also had their own store. So families could buy basic necessities from the railroad or mining companies and then have that amount deducted from their paycheck.

Okay. And you're doing a cash business in a community of people who have no cash. Right. So yeah, why would anyone should be? shop at a cash only store in town. I mean, it could be a disaster. J.C. Penny thought, you know what? I just want to go check out the place for myself. And then we'll decide. So he took a trip to Kemmerer and found a lot of positives.

He saw that, yeah, there's a lot of miners and railroad workers. But there's also a lot of farmers and ranchers. You know, many came into town from a ways away just to buy supplies. J.C. Penny also discovered that an oil company would soon be the there to start drilling for oil. He was like, ooh, that could bring a lot of money to the area. Mm-hmm. And then finally, he visited the local hardware store.

Penny said that, quote, a busy hardware store in a community means the kind of people I understand and like. And it was a busy hardware store. So J.C. Penny was dead set. Kemmer, Wyoming, all the way. Callahan and Johnson were uneasy, but they really trusted J.C. Penny. They were like, hey, he's a new partner. let's go with his choice and we'll just see how it goes.

Yeah, and Guy and Tom are pretty wealthy by this point, right? Yeah, definitely. So they're really not risking as much. Oh, no, this was a far bigger risk for Penny. Yeah. He's also got that loan, you know. Yeah, yeah, we know. Yeah, Guy and Tom are paying cash and, yeah, Penny's got the bank loan.

So, well, on April 14th, 190. the Golden Rule Store officially opened in downtown Kemmerer. It was J.C. Penny's very first store. His store was stocked to the brim with work clothes, church clothes, home and pantry, staples, and more. Berta and J.C. Penny put in work to make that store a success. They handed out flyers with prices to 500 local miners. Whoa. They advertised in the newspaper.

Berta worked the register while baby Roswell slept in a crib underneath the counter. J.C. Penny frantically worked the sales floor, helping customers, and tidying up. The store was open every day from 7 a.m. until, quote, no more people in the street seemed to be heading for the store. Oh, my God. This is exhausting. So usually it was 7 a.m. to midnight were their hours. God. To further save money, the pennies lived above the store in an attic space. They got water from a nearby well, and they pulled it up to the attic window with.

a bucket and pulley system. Oh, geez. They used packing crates and shipping boxes as furniture. J.C. Penny's instincts proved to be right. The Kemmerer store flourished. People loved the low prices, the great customer service. They loved how clean the store was. A lot of folks came from out of town, you know, visiting the store only maybe once or twice

a year. Mm-hmm. And J.C. Penny made it a point to remember who they were. He kept notes on them. He wrote down their names, what their sizes were, what styles they liked. That's really great. I mean, that's... Yeah, in a tiny town like that, that is really good.

Yeah. The rough and tumble local customers who worked in the mines or on the railroads, they were, quote, quick to notice a different atmosphere, which made them feel welcome and appreciated. Yeah. In particular, immigrant workers, many from China and Japan, they loved the... Golden Rule Store. They faced rampant discrimination during this time, but not at the Golden Rule Store. They felt welcomed. Well, you know, it's funny thinking about those company stores. Yeah.

Those were known to take advantage of people. Oh, they definitely did. They had ridiculous prices on stuff. And they had you buy the balls, basically. They're the only place in town. You're paid once a month. You're struggling. And so, yeah, here's this new store, and they don't treat me like a piece of shit when I walk in there. Yeah. And I think residents realized right away, whoa, I can get way better deals at this golden rule store than buying from my company. That first year of business was a smashing success.

The pennies turned over their entire inventory four times. Wow. I do love this. I think I have like, I get the heby-jeebies when I hear. about someone working their tail off, taking no lunch breaks, not going home for a business that isn't theirs. But this is partly theirs. Right. And much different. It's a world of difference. Yeah. I mean, we own our own business. And I do feel pride when I like put in the hours and it's like I'm trying to make our business grow. Like it's a good feeling. I, okay, I'm glad you said that first.

because I was feeling silly because obviously we do not work 7 a.m. to midnight, seven days a week. But we've been, but. Sometimes we have long hours, but. Well, no, we, we do have really long hours. And I think especially because this podcast has been around for a year now. And especially when we first started it, we had like no time to figure out what's this podcast going to be. What are we going to name it? What, you know, we had no time to do that.

What should the podcast be about? Yeah, and we just knew we had to come up with something very quickly. Yeah. No rest. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. And so I don't know.

There is something kind of cool about this that they opened this store and they worked their butts off. Yeah. The Berta and J.C. Penny both put in long hours and it paid off for them. Yeah. Yeah. In total, that store sold $29,000. worth of goods. Adjusted for inflation, a little over a million dollars. They made a profit of $8,500. Adjusted for inflation, $316,000. Hell yeah. Of course, those profits were split three ways

with the partners. So Tom Callahan, Guy Johnson, and J.C. Penny, each made about $100,000 profit in today's money. Okay. Callahan and Johnson were super impressed by what J.C. Penny and Berta had accomplished. They were so impressed, in fact, that they offered J.C. Penny a partnership in another Golden Rule store, this time in Rock Springs, Wyoming. Apparently, that store was not doing very well, and they thought Penny can turn it around. Penny agreed. Twice a month, he traveled 50 miles to Rock Springs to manage that store. The following year in 1903 proved to be an extremely busy time for J.C. Penny. He went on his first buying trip for the company. Kansas City, Missouri.

Oh. He mingled with manufacturers and dealers. The Kemmerer store was busy as hell. J.C. Penny started hiring more employees to help out. Unfortunately, turnover rate was high. Penny had developed a reputation around town for being a kind of difficult boss. His standards were insanely high. Mm-hmm.

If you recall, he thought Tom Callahan was too lax with his employees. I do recall. Jacey Penny was on the opposite end of the spectrum. He frequently spied on his employees. What? Penny always claimed he wasn't spying. He was studying them. Oh, God.

He was looking for potential. Did an employee come back early from lunch break? Oh, my God. Was the floor clean enough to eat dinner from? Were there sales continuously going up? So that kind of management did. rub some people the wrong way. Did they pay really well?

They paid pretty well, yeah. Okay, I would hope so. Yeah. If I'm being surveilled, Big Brother is watching. Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, Penny was like, oh, finding good help sure is hard around here.

So he called on his family back in Hamilton, Missouri. And soon enough, his sister Pearl and his brother Herbert moved out to Kemmerer to work in the store, with more customers and more employees. the Kemmerer store expanded and moved down the street to a bigger location. J.C. and Berta bought a home nearby for their growing family. That year they had another son, who they named Johnson Callahan Penny. Wow. Everyone called him J.C. Jr.

What's this? Plack alert. Oh, okay. So that Golden Rule store and the Penny's home nearby, they're both still around today. Really? Yes. So the house is a museum. Uh-huh.

And that Golden Rule store, it's now a JCPenny. Shut up! It's known as the mother store. It is store number one. Hell yeah! Oh, we got to go. I, okay. How far is it?

So we are going this summer on a Pitts family vacation to, I don't know, somewhere in North Dakota or something. I can't remember where we're going. Norm pays excellent attention to the group text. I did look how far was Kimmerer from where we're going. It's like six hours away. It's like the southern part of Wyoming. Okay. Another trip for another time.

So, yeah, that store is known as store number one. It's part JCPenney. It's part museum. It's got a ton of original knick-knacks and items from the early 1900s on display. Very cool. I do hope one day we get to check it out. Let's make it happen. happen. Anyway, back to our story. Even though things were getting really, really busy,

J.C. Penny said that those days in Kemmerer were, quote, the happiest times of my life. And I totally get that. You're like, you own your own business. You're making money. Your family's growing. You have family from Hamilton living in the town now. It's just... You're finally successful. Yeah. Like really successful. Yeah. In your personal life and your professional life. He's probably feeling very fulfilled. Yeah. Yeah. Tom Callahan and Guy Johnson couldn't be more thrilled.

Profits in both Kemmer and Rock Springs kept going up. They called Penny a hustler. Hmm. He had their full confidence. So when J.C. Penny pitched the idea of opening another Golden Rule store in a nearby mining town called Cumberland, Calhane and Johnson were like, Yes. Yeah, sure.

In C. Penny was once again a one-third partner in the beach. business and once again the store did really well. A little titty-bitty, Cumberland Wyoming is now a ghost town today. Oh man. Which are always kind of creepy, but... Also kind of cool. Very cool as well. Two things can be true.

But, you know, soon J.C. Penny found himself with a new problem. He was, as DJ Khalid would say, suffering from success. Is that something he says? That's one of his album names. Suffering from... He's like doing this pose.

you know, kneeling, looking down. And the album's called Suffering from Success. Absolutely. It's great. So what was his problem? He had a ton of cash. He was like, what the hell do I do with all this money? Oh, that's terrible.

Horrible. J.C. and Berta talked it over. And Penny admitted to her he had a bigger dream. He was like, someday, I'm going to have a chain of these stores all over the mountain states. And she was like, how many do you want? And he was like, 50. Whoa. I want 50 stores.

Whoa. Why 50? It just seems like a good number. Yeah. I want 50 stores. But Penny always thought that's a long-term goal. That's going to be a while. Well, it wasn't as far off as he thought.

In 1907, a major shake-up in the Golden Rule Store put everything into motion. During that year, J.C. Penny noticed a big drop in communication with his partners, Tom Callahan and Guy Johnson. And he was like, huh, what's going on? And he eventually learned why. Callahan and Johnson were arguing. They had, quote, personal and business disagreements. And as a result, they told Penny that they were ending their partnership and their friendship. Oh.

Yeah. It's not clear what exactly the problem was. How did the partnership end exactly? I'll get to it. Okay, okay. Sorry. You're real excited. aren't you? I am intrigued. Yeah, so it's not clear what their disagreements were about, but

sometimes businesses don't work out. Sometimes friendships don't work out. Sometimes things just aren't meant to be. Callahan and Johnson may have ended their partnership and their friendship, but there was one thing they both agreed on. They said, okay, well, if we're going to sell our joint interests in Golden Rule stores, we're only going to sell them to one. person, James Cash Penny, Jr. Yeah. So J.C. Penny finally found a use for all that cash. In late 1907, he became the sole proprietor of all three of those Golden Rule stores in

Kemmerer, Rock Springs, and Cumberland. The price, $30,000. That seems like a steal. Adjusted for inflation, about a million dollars. Huh. You really don't know what happened? I don't. And I do want to clarify, Tom Callahan and Guy Johnson had other Golden Rule stores.

Right. They were specifically ending any stores they were joint partners in. Okay. So like Tom Callahan had 100% ownership of several Golden Rule stores. So he was keeping all those. Sure. I think Guy Johnson may have had some too. But yeah, specifically, they were no longer going to work together in a joint partnership.

I like the honesty of it. And I like the cleanness of it of like, yeah, we'll just sell our shares and be on our way. Yeah. It's not always that clean. No, it's not. That whole incident might scare some people into going into a partnership again. Right. Might seem too risky.

You know, one partner could bring the whole business down. If it's 50-50, they absolutely can. But if it's not 50-50, you're probably okay. Well, again, I don't know this for sure, but I do believe Callahan and Johnson did own some stores 50-50. Okay. So I don't know what they did with those. But, you know, just the whole idea of you're in a partnership, one of your partners, you know, you don't get along anymore. Right.

It's scary. Like what can happen to something you've built for years. Sure. Yeah. But none of that scared J.C. Penny. He truly believed in the Golden Rule Store business model. It reflected everything. His parents had taught him back in Hamilton.

Honesty, integrity, self-reliance, equality. Hell, it was in the name. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Penny was filled with determination. How many times are you going to say that? It's from a game I like called Undertale. Okay. You know the little plaque I gave you?

Yeah. Yeah. That's where filled with determination comes from. I do love that. Well, Penny was filled with determination to own 50 stores. And he knew the best and fastest way to do that was to find good quality workers, train them, and partner up with them. That business model had worked for him. It's what got him into this position.

and he believed it could work for others. The year was now 1908. A recession the previous year saw profits go down, but really not much. Again, Golden Rule stores withstood economic uncertainty very well. J.C. Penny was 33 years old. He had a wife, two children, three successful stores. Over the next few years, J.C. Penny would expand his business.

He brought in new partners, family members, friends, hardworking employees, and that dream of owning 50 Golden Rule Stores would quickly come true. On the next episode of an old-timey podcast, the Golden Rule Stores

transform into J.C. Penny's stores. What? Yes, sir. This has been a really interesting episode. Yeah? Yes. What did you like about it, Kristen? I love the...

I don't know. want to call it the early years because I think of that as like a person's childhood. But those years when somebody's trying to figure things out and then they finally, after working hard at a bunch of different things, they finally find the thing and they just hit the gas. Yeah. I love it. It was great that he saw this store and he just knew.

He was just like, this is it. Yeah. This is where I need to be. This is where I will be successful. And he just went full throttle at it. and like it really paid off for him. Mm-mm-mm. And to have like a supportive partner in Berta.

Yeah. Who like worked the store with him, helped him save money. Told him don't take that 8% loan. Yep. Let's get, let's save some money on that loan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

This is, uh, this is all very fascinating to me. I didn't know about the Golden Rule stores. I just thought J.C. Penny started J.C. Penny. I didn't know he kind of transformed an old store into J.C. Penny. You know what I mean? I'll be honest. I didn't know any of this because why would anyone? Well, that's why an old-timey podcast exists.

For this reason right here. That's right. We want you to walk into J.C. Penny and really fucking appreciate it. Okay? Before they all shut down. I want you to go to the, Nick, the nearest sales clerk when you walk in, just give him a hug. Oh, hey, I just say, thank you. Well, ask first. Can I give you a hug?

And say, thank you, thank you for working here. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your service. God bless you. You know, maybe, you know, Trump just announced he was going to do victory in World War II day and victory in World War I day. Maybe I could petition for a J.C. Penny Day. April 14th. Why not?

Which April 14th, I believe, is the day the Titanic sank, too. A lot to celebrate. What should we celebrate on that day? Well, well told Norm, my hat is off to you. My overalls are off to you as well. Your overalls are off to? I'm so thrilled by this episode. You're getting completely nude, huh?

Well, no, I've got a corset under it, you know, the works. Am I saying corset wrong? Is it corset or corset? Oh, I've got you thinking all kinds of things. No, you said it correctly. I was just making fun. Oh, oh, oh, boy. No, I'm good.

I'm good. I'm filled with determination. I wondered what that was. I'm a good boy, and I will succeed. Speaking of which, I was going to wrap up the episode with some comments to read to you. Oh, Spotify comments, perhaps. Okay. It's funny.

I was planning to do Spotify comments. First, tell the people how we are brilliant podcasters and just learned about Spotify comments. We've mentioned it in several recent episodes. People know that we are idgets and we didn't know you could leave comments on Spotify. So we've been enjoying going back and reading all the comments. We're playing catch-up right now. Where is the app on my phone? La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la.

Hey, what did the tomato say to the other tomato when he ran ahead? Say that again? What did one tomato say to the other when he ran ahead? Don't worry, you'll catch up. Damn. You're good. Well, I mean, come on. Norm, I'm going to read you some comments on your most recent episode.

That would be J.C. Penny Part 1. Yes, it sure would. This first one comes from Gissy Bean. Gissy Bean writes, Norm is a good boy, and he is already successful. Isn't that sweet? Thank you. Yeah, I've been getting a lot of those comments.

It's very sweet. Mrs. Nesbitt also says, Normie C is a good boy and I believe in this podcast. Oh, thank you. Are these all just comments saying Norm is a good boy? How many of the comments say Norm is a good boy? A lot of comments are telling you that you are a good boy. Oh, I do want to read you this one.

Matthew Holt says, Normie C is a great. boy and this podcast is already succeeding. Also, even though I'm from Indiana, I still appreciate you. Man, I did rile up the Indianans. No, see, I think this speaks to their character because so far, everyone from Indiana has been really sweet about you being such a jerk. I wasn't a jerk. Yeah, you said. Are they, they're not Indiana's. I guess they're Hoosiers. Yeah. Call themselves the Hoosiers. Yeah, you were a real turd about it. You complimented their gummy bears and So good.

Yeah, but you just shat all over their great state. Here's a longer comment. This comes from the effin audacity. Oh. The effin audacity writes, Norm is such a good, non-threatening, successful boy that he can take any topic and make it into a podcast episode that's interesting to listen to.

Wow. As someone with a worthless history degree, I greatly approve of and appreciate this hilarious podcast. Norm and Kristen do an amazing job. job at making history fun. This has quickly become my favorite podcast. And if you give it a chance, you will not be disappointed. Thank you. As someone else with a worthless history degree, I appreciate that. Wow. Anyway, thank you all for the Spotify comments. We appreciate it. And thank you to everyone who has rated and reviewed us. It really, really helps. Yeah, we really appreciate it. And I,

seriously, I'm blown away by the feedback on the JCPenney series. I have noticed you started with no confidence and now you are filled with determination. I am. It might be the Rocky Mountain oysters. It might be the chocolate of clairs. We're not sure what did this to you, but we're grateful. Perhaps an anvil fell on my balls and it woke me up. Wake me up inside.

Anvil on my balls. Save me from the anvil on my balls. Should we wrap this up? Yeah, let's do it. people don't need to hear this shit. You know what they say about history hoes? We always cite our sources. Oh, take your time.

I closed. Hey, don't worry. Yeah, we're just sitting here. Yeah, go ahead and scroll. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from The Books. Creating an American Institution, the merchandising genius of J.C. Penny by Mary Elizabeth Curry.

J.C. Penny, The Man, the Store, an American Agriculture by David Kruger. and 50 Years with the Golden Rule by James Cash Penny Jr. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast.

Join the Reddit community, R-slash old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old-Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. She is the luscious Kristen Pitts Caruso. I go by Gaming Historian, and until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio.